Ken Wilson Rebuts James White
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- Опубліковано 16 вер 2024
- Dr. Leighton Flowers welcomes back Dr. Ken Wilson to defend his Oxford Thesis from over 15 hours of mostly fallacious and unfounded attacks by Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries.
The Common Misconceptions in this Debate So Far:
1. Wilson's argument rests on Manicheanism and Augustinianism being the same worldview: This is untrue. It is not at all unreasonable to suggest that just one aspect of Manicheanism (i.e. its adherence to theistic determinism) might have influenced Augustine's interpretation of the scripture.
2. Wilson is saying Augustinianism is untrue because of its similarities with Manicheanism: This is inaccurate. It is possible for false worldviews to adhere to some aspects of truth, therefore proving that Calvinism has some link to Manicheanism doesn't prove Calvinism is false. Wilson is saying Augustinianism is not rooted or founded in the early church writings therefore it most likely originated from other gnostic, neoplatonic and Manichean roots, which brings into question its validity as the correct interpretive grid.
3. Wilson is arguing Augustinianism imports Manicheanism into Christianity because it uses similar words: This is also untrue. Just because Mani spoke of "the elect" and Calvinists also emphasize "the elect" does not mean they are necessarily linked, or even have the same definitions. Wilson is not attempting to argue that all aspects or jargon of the Manichean worldview are linked to the all aspects or jargon within the Calvinistic worldview. Wilson is only looking at the one common point of connection, namely deterministic philosophy, which was first introduced by Augustine, a former Manichean.
4. James White's criticism has accurately portrayed Wilson's arguments and showed Wilson's bias: This is demonstrably untrue as will be shown in this video and in many of the articles posted at www.soteriology101.com.
5. If it can be proven that Wilson held to preconception of the ECFs and Augustine's beliefs before doing his research, then his subsequent research is invalid: Again this is false. Even if it could be proven beyond all reasonable doubt that Wilson firmly believed the ECFs denied TULIP theology and that Augustine was the first to introduce it, this does not make his findings invalid. One would still need to demonstrate that Wilson's bias lead to poor research.
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Here are quotes from Reformed historians who validate the foundational claims of Wilson's work:
Herman Bavinck:
In the early church, at a time when it had to contend with pagan fatalism and gnostic naturalism, its representatives focused exclusively on the moral nature, freedom, and responsibility of humans and could not do justice, therefore, to the teaching of Scripture concerning the counsel of God. Though humans had been more or less corrupted by sin, they remained free and were able to accept the proffered grace of God. The church’s teaching did not include a doctrine of absolute predestination and irresistible grace.
Loraine Boettner:
“It may occasion some surprise to discover that the doctrine of Predestination was not made a matter of special study until near the end of the fourth century....They of course taught that salvation was through Christ; yet they assumed that man had full power to accept or reject the gospel. Some of their writings contain passages in which the sovereignty of God is recognized; yet along side of those are others which teach the absolute freedom of the human will. Since they could not reconcile the two they would have denied the doctrine of Predestination... They taught a kind of synergism in which there was a co-operation between grace and free will... this cardinal truth of Christianity was first clearly seen by Augustine..."
Robert Peterson and Michael Williams of Covenant Theological Seminary:
"The Semi-Pelagians were convinced that Augustine's monergistic emphasis upon salvation by grace alone represented a significant departure from the traditional teaching of the church. And a survey of the thought of the apostolic father's shows that the argument is valid... In comparison to Augustine's monergistic doctrine of grace, the teachings of the apostolic fathers tended toward a synergistic view of redemption" (36).
Louis Berkhof:
"Their representations are naturally rather indefinite, imperfect, and incomplete, and sometimes even erroneous and self-contradictory. Says Kahnis: "It stands as an assured fact, a fact knowing no exceptions, and acknowledged by all well versed in the matter, that all of the pre-Augustinian Fathers taught that in the appropriation of salvation there is a co-working of freedom and grace."
Berkhof goes on to admit that "they do not hold to an entire corruption of the human will, and consequently adhere to the synergistic theory of regeneration..." (130).
In other words, despite White's assertions to the contrary, there were no "monergists" before Augustine.
James White is awesome. Every time he opens his mouth hundreds of people leave Calvinism.
Lol
If only they would leave trinitarianism also
@@briankregg6329 Romans 8:9, 10
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness." (Romans 8:9, 10)
What spirit dwells in the Christian, the Spirit of God, or the Spirit of Christ, or both?
Lol, nailed it!
@@ministryoftruth1451 What is the gospel?
Thank you for doing this, Dr. Wilson. You didn't really need to go through this, but there are those who really appreciate it.
There really are. Thank you to both of these truth-seeking, scholarly brothers.
James white will never have a debate that the true scholars cannot refute and rebuke
James white is a theological narcissist. He cant handle being wrong . Hes a calvinist that takes shots against the king james bible. I asked him a qustion at a conference once about herman hoskier who found inconsistencies in the criticle text manuscripts that show they are heretical and he just him hawed around and you could tell i busted him. Dont like the guy. Im not questioning his salvation. But his work and debating and straw man arguments are disingenuiois.
Changed my life.
This was fascinating. It opened me up to a whole different theological world that I did not knw existed..
Dr. Flowers-
I just wanted to say thank you for this video. I am a nobody with no dog in the conversation but just wanted to give a brief testimony. This will probably not be read, but if it is I hope it blesses somebody.
I have been in Armenian and premillennialist my entire Christian upbringing. In 2010 to 2012 I was working on my undergraduate thesis in the history department. My focus was the first 200 years of the Roman empire. I chose as my topic; the early church. I was at a secular university so thought it would be fun. The title of my paper was “Against Bauer and Erhman: uncovering paleo-orthodoxy in the primitive church through the patristics. A refutation of the Bauer thesis with the ante-nicean fathers. It was a fun study.
This gave birth to my graduate paper which was a defense of pre-millennial eschatology from the church fathers. Which led me to studying Augustine and showing his introduction of amillennial eschatology to Christianity in the absence of it prior to him. It was through this study culminating in 2014 that I also begin to believe and teach that Augustine introduced Proto Calvinism as I called it… I didn’t study any Augustine scholars and just read him for what he said.
Fast forward now to May 2021 and though my theology has continued to grow, I now stumble across this wonderful video where scholars come to the scholarly conclusion that my immature scholastics came to… I have some level of pride and joy now.
Someone did read it 😁✝️
yay!! cool confirmation!
I read it! Proud of you!
Way to go!!!
Thank you so much for these conversations. I am not a scholar or theologian, I'm just a woman who has spent many years teaching other women to study the Scriptures using the inductive method in a multi-denominational setting. I encountered my first Southern Baptist Calivinist as a college student in the 80's, and have spent a lot of time over the years reading and studying to try to understand why a doctrine that was so clearly contradictory of so much scripture had such charm. I was also very concerned about the violence the doctrine does to the revealed character of God. That was the lynchpin that kept me coming back to the probability that there is serious error in Calvinism, as I encountered it with increasing frequency over the years.
Several years ago I read Debating Calvinism, a publication of written arguments between James White and Dave Hunt, which was my first introduction to White. His debate style has not changed. In the video where he first took up the discussion of Dr. Wilson's thesis, he casually mentioned that Dr. Wilson is a hand-surgeon, who is also interested in theology. That was a dismissal of Dr. Wilson - he can't possibly be a serious theologian, it's evidently just a hobby. This is how someone who is intimidated by the superior abilities and accomplishments of another behaves. My daddy would say, "Dr. Wilson has brains where Dr. White has sawdust." Clearly, Dr. White is aware of this. He’s not dumb, he’s just not comfortable when he doesn’t think he’s the smartest guy in the room.
It's genuinely entertaining to watch the dismantling of James White, but it's rewarding beyond expression to learn scholarly arguments that can be gently asserted against the Calvinist filter. Thank you for the work and the conversations. God bless!
Great way to put what I "sense" about Calvinism also - doctrine that does such violence to the revealed will of God. 😇
Malinda Smith, You said: ''I encountered my first Southern Baptist Calivinist as a college student in the 80's, and have spent a lot of time over the years reading and studying to try to understand why a doctrine that was so clearly contradictory of so much scripture had such charm.''=>>> The reason why Calvinism has such charm and and can attract many Christians is: Calvinism teaches some beautiful bible doctrine such as Limited Atonement.... Jesus died only for the Sheep(elect) not for the goats(reprobates) and Once saved is always saved because God does not change His mind and unsaved those He already saved.... and God predestined all the Sheep(elect) to be saved since the foundation of the world... and predestined all the goats(reprobates) to be cast to the lake of fire since the foundation of the world......
@@josephdurraz8574Sarcasm...?
@draig dwi, Of course I believe what I wrote... Can you prove me wrong ? I will explain to you later why it is true ....
@draig dwi, John 10:11 (KJV) ''I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.'' John 10:14-15 ''14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.'' In the bible Jesus always speaks of the Sheep(elect) and the goats(reprobates) Did Jesus speaks that he save also the goats or any other aside from the Sheep? John 6:44 (KJV) ''No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.'' NOTE: It is very obvious from this verse that some are not drawn to Jesus to raised them up in the last day.... Who are those who are drawn to Jesus by the Father to be raised in the last days... Definitely the elect.... Now we go to the 'P' of the TULIP which means 'Preservation of the saints' or 'Once saved always saved' John 17:12 (KJV) ''While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.'' NOTE: All the the Father has given to Jesus no one was lost except Judas.... WoW.. So not all of the elect are saved.... BUT Judas is not one of the elect(Sheep) God gave him to Jesus for God has a purpose for him to do... Judas was the one prophesied to betray Jesus by selling Jesus to the Sanhedrin for 30 pieces of silver.... John 6:39 (KJV) ''And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.''
I came across Soteriology 101 by accident. I am not a “Baptist” but I am a Christian and I am very impressed with the way Dr. Flowers handles and honors the Word of God. I can listen to him for hours on a road trip and never get bored. I hope and pray that Dr. White is not as rude and condescending in his everyday life as he is to Dr. Flowers. Leighton is very generous in his opinions of Dr. White but sometimes there is just no excuse for belittling a man because he can’t best him with rational discussion and arguments. I will keep listening to Soteriology 101 because I believe God decreed me to..👍
Being condescending and rude is part of Calvinism because its the way Jean Cauvin operated. Actually that was the nicest part of him, seriously.
180 CE? UH OH!
Wow, God calls us to love one another, if flowers were so loving why is he constantly attacking another mans theology ? Especially when it's not a difference in gospel.
Seems like wasted energy to me when there's better use of time, like worrying about the lost. Think how much time he would have to share the gospel with the lost if he wasn't consumed with this. We are called to encourage one another love one another !
@@joelauretta4067 I’m pretty sure you know very little about Reformed theology, very little about how it hinders souls from being saved and even more sure you haven’t listened much to LF. Just saying.
White is very prideful, believing his systematic theology gives God *all the glory* therefor justifying himself to ridicule, scoff & mock those who disagree with him. The Pharisees behaved in the same way, and what did Jesus say to them? *"You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God."*
@@michaelmichael-ci8hi key word you didn't quote..."believing"
Deceiver
I'm tired of PC culture in Christianity. Gutless Christianity leads to seeker-sensitivity leads to judgement-free churches leads to repentance-free churches leads to godless churches.
Is White wrong? Or is Wilson wrong for making sweeping claims about church history?
Stop spreading the gospel of nice. That's Oprah and Ellen's turf.
@@lkae4
1 Corinthians 13:1-2
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
Explain where you are seeing political correctness in this video? Do you see a lack of repentance? Do you see a lack of faith or seeking the truth from the Bible? Don't conflate Oprah and Ellen from theology that you disagree with. Oprah believes all roads lead to God, that is not a gospel at all. The truth of the whole gospel is we are headed to hell without Christ, that is the truth. But a message given of the truth from a place of love is more effective.
AMEN! perfect citation of Scripture!
He is only following the model set by Jean Cauvin who was truly an obnoxious, petty person who excelled at not understanding the Bible in context and really excelled at name calling. Its quite shocking that a "theological giant" of Cauvin's stature would engage in constant name calling like a kid in a schoolyard. That was just for believing anything different than him. That's actually one of his nicer attributes as I discovered. What a nasty human being.
While I can appreciate Dr. White's work--for the most part, anyway--I cannot escape the feeling that he's rapidly becoming of the mind that The ONLY legitimate method for interpretation of Scripture/history is one that leads you to Calvinism... Anything else is unacceptable to him. He's cordial enough to people like Michael Brown (whom he regards as a friend), but when it comes to Leighton Flowers, he has gotten at times downright nasty. I'll be honest... If James White is the kind of Christian that being a Calvinist turns you into, I wouldn't want any part of it.
@Eric Here here!
michael Michael your last statement is a bit odd..
@@michaelmichael-ci8hi "if what you read leads you to free will"...?
What?!? If Calvinism is true, then if someone is led to free will, it's because God determined them to.
You make NO sense.
I have often said that ,, it Absolutely atracts a Argumentative type of personality !!
@@michaelmichael-ci8hi you would not arive at reformed teaching by reading the bible alone ,, its not possible !!
Thank you Ken Wilson for your labor of love. Thank you Leighton for introducing me to this brother. James White is out of his depth on this topic. His less than Christian responses are embarrassing and humiliating. I can't wait to get my hands on both Ken's books.
I sense humility in Dr. Flowers and Dr. Wilson...a gentleness...ZERO HUMILITY in Mr. White !...Jesus would never mock anyone
@ James The Lord Jesus did have harsh words for people who should have known better; however, he did not mock for rudeness sakes but to "arouse" those who should have known better.
@@cancab3661 lol, all Wilson is saying is that White believes that God could not have his will done and allow millions of freewill decisions to occur. I think you ought to pray for love for your brothers who do not share your views me included (if you are saved, which it seems so by your strong stance)
White literally says that in the clip, just watch it. He says how can god's will be done in the midst of millions of decisions. How else should I interpret that???
@@cancab3661 you are James White... Pathetic trolling Mr White (you never did the study to call yourself a doctor)...
@@cancab3661 I totally agree, but I think that I can still have faith which is worth nothing, and God merits that because of the blood of Jesus as sufficient (even though it merits nothing).
Brother I love you and have no ill will toward you btw, I really do think that we should challange eachother without virbally lynching eachother.
I and my family knew Ken Wilson and his family years ago. Great guy
My family and I
@@michaelmichael-ci8hi you don't think Ken Wilson is saved?
Daniel Donohue trust me... no one wants to gain theological knowledge from this one.
@@michaelmichael-ci8hi no but it does not make Him unsaved or wrong eighter.
But it is a good fruit of the spirit, do you see that from white.
@@thedonsj2172 don't engage with Michael Michael. he's a waste of time
I am embarrassed for JW. One can never be considered a scholar that displays such intellectual dishonesty. The clips of him sounded more like a shock jock, than a theologian confronting what he believed to be in error. At best he is seriously misguided in thinking he was making any valid arguments.
Calvinism is a strong spirit of error.
We can pray that James White will come to the knowledge of the truth, and renounce his Calvinism and be free to know the love of GOD!
Unfortunately Dr. White has shown again and again his unwilling to be honest when it comes to issues of Church history. He will BLATANTLY declare clear error without a second thought. And accuse you of “Romanism” if point out his errors and/or dishonesty.
One of the big issues I find with James White's tactics, strawmen aside, is that he tends to assume that prior to making an argument, we must give a full disclosure or systematic theology on all other points before arriving at whatever is being discussed.
It's like in order to discuss idea A, we must discuss and lay down ideas B through ZZZ156. Without those in place, we cannot even begin to discuss this topic. Then when laying down idea B, He claims we have to still have A in place alongside all others.
Example, When discussing justification, he claims we need to first lay down soteriology, original sin, sanctification. So we move on to discuss and try to lay down Soteriology, but then he claims we need to first lay down Justification. It's a no win scenario with him. nothing is ever good enough, unless it agrees with him.
Not only this, it just requires that to make any point requires a ludicrous amount of pretext just to get started, and no point can be started without the other pretext.
To top it off, seeing him shift over the years, becoming more hostile and nasty to anyone non-calvinist, has shown me that if this is what being a calvinist makes a person become...i don't want it. God calls us to love and honor and respect. I see very little of that in him.
One of the best programs Leighton has ever done. I appreciate the humility and gracious demeanor, in addition to their solid arguments. I will definitely be taking a look at Dr. Wilson's work.
Robert James I go to church with him and he’s a great guy
Part of a Calvanist's fruit is they love to argue that they are filled with wisdom. Most rather argue than to show love. White is a classic example of a clanging symbol with no love.
3 It is to one’s honor to avoid strife, but every fool is quick to quarrel. Proverbs 20:3
the humility and kindness of Prof. Wilson are so evident as you continue to listen to him.
Thank you for this. Also, thank you for including your prayer at the end. That may speak more to your character than the rest of the video.
Shalom
If fredrick neichze was alive he would say "Calvin is dead and Dr Wilson killed him "
I mean even Calvin stopped teaching calvanism
Dr White has fallen into the error of making a false dichotomy which assumes that "unless Augustine imported ALL the assumptions of Mani he did not import ANY of his assumptions."
O no...bringing up where White did his PhD work.
White won't take this well.
Too bad! What? He couldn’t handle in person accredited schools? And even if he did, would it matter? Calvinism would still be a heresy.
Where did he get it?
At 04:58, @@drums2go615. The unaccredited, online Columbia Theological Seminary.
This was fantastic to listen to. I can't wait for the debate!!!!
When is the debate?
@@spencers6263 I don't know. I don't recall what he said in this video.
Still hasn’t happened..
My good buddy pointed out to me the other day what God says to Job’s friends at the end of the book. “It came about after the LORD had spoken these words to Job, that the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends, because you have not spoken of Me what is right as My servant Job has.” Job 42:7. Imagine wagging your puny little finger and God and saying “no! All means all types! Jesus did not die for the world! Calvin said so!” My heart breaks for those caught in Calvinism. What a terrifying place to be in.
You have brought up the horror that Calvinism will have to answer to Jesus Christ. Really they are speaking directly against the concept of grace, that while we were "ungodly" and "sinners" Christ died for us (Rom. 5:6,8). To me, if Jesus only died for those he chose, then there is no grace. He chose them and immediately it is his duty to save those he chose. They do, therefore, merit his salvation because at creation they were irresistibly made members of that elite group called God's elect. The real grace of God means that salvation is offered to the ungodly and sinners regardless of whether they will believe or not. This is indeed amazing grace.
Regarding Job, why would God say, "My wrath is kindled against you . . ." if the speech of those two friends was pre-determined as Calvinists say. In that thinking they had no choice to say anything but what they said. Clearly Job chose to speak truth and the two friends chose to speak lies.
@@2jomok2 "If He died only for those He chose..." that would be all the grace He bestowed. But no less an "amount" of grace. The real question is, why do you settle for the grace that you prescribe? Couldn't God have granted us more grace? Is He limited in His ability to save His creation or could He have done it in a number of different ways? God chooses whether people suffer eternally in hell or live freely with him. That's a limit on God's grace that you seem willing to live with. Why? Some people believe in universal salvation. Some believe that all roads lead to one faith. Some believe that it doesn't matter what a person believes...If you believe in an eternity based on the consequence of sin and that man must choose God to overcome eternal punishment then you limit the kind and amount of grace God bestows. That is the "horror" that free will will have to answer to.
@HillDueceua I don't believe that God caused evil and used man as a scapegoat. Satan and the first humans caused it. maybe a definition of evil is needed to understand both sides. I don't think evil is deeds done in time and space. I think evil is the result of free will and free will is just that, will or desire not deeds. Our intent is the thing for which we are condemned (Genesis 50:20) It is slander to say that a Calvinist believes God is the source of evil and sin. It is just as easy for a Calvinist to say, "Free will believers make God into a passive sovereign who could have prevented evil from happening but let it happen anyway. The free will version of God didn't care enough to keep Satan out of the Garden and thoughtlessly placed the one tree that could give man the knowledge of right from wrong within the woman's reach. I guess their god didn't see that coming." That too is slanderous because it's not truly what free will believers believe. I think it should be considered just how presumptuous it is for us to think that because we desire or will to do something that we can accomplish that thing (Romans 9:16, James 4:15). This issue requires the kind of thoughtfulness that recognizes what each side is trying to defend about the person of God and His Word.
@HillDueceua You are asking a good question. My answer is, no. Do you believe that Satan outsmarted God?
@HillDueceua I don't think you're trying to understand. I think you're trying to "win". Was it God's desire to allow Satan to deceive the woman? Was it God's will to allow the man to eat the fruit? Did God create the angel to deceive the woman and the woman to be deceived? You must believe that God made the angel, the woman, and the man knowing that they would fall into sin by His own determined will to grant them free will. How is that not a "sin laundering scheme"? I see value and meaning in the decree. Is there meaning in the decision to allow sin to enter the world bringing death, damnation, and corruption to the cosmos?
17:15: “Cyrus was the result of literally hundreds of thousands of free choices of creatures. How did God know-without a decree-centuries before the soldiers decided, ‘Hey, let’s not rip that seamless garment he’s got? Let’s get some money. Let’s cast lots for it.’ Hundreds of years, millions of free will choices. God’s a pretty good guesser, huh?” (17:15-17:47)
James White asks how God could know something without decreeing it. Therefore, James White is an Open Theist who simply believes that God must have a decree in order to know something. He doesn’t recognize the non-Open Theist, non-Calvinist view that God knows the future because He exists outside of time, in eternity.
Exactly
Also when David asked God if they will betray him . He say yes so he Left
I was honestly shocked to hear James White say that. I didn't expect him to think that way at all
Sorry. Calvinism is a different gospel and a different Christ. Until you realize that, you'll constantly be trying to reconcile that theology with Christianity and banging your heads against Calvinists.
Completely agree, and i just want to clarify that im not against the individuals but the teaching nevertheless we must call it like it is, if we are to bring the truth of Salvation in the fulness of its Logic, Historicity and Inspiration.
And if you cant have one single solid understanding of the most basic and most significant qualifier of what a Christian is, which is the Gospel that saves (Saved by God's love and grace, appropriated positively by faith, embedded in the creation of man according to God's image; i.e. John 3:16) then what do we have? We cant consider a consistent Christian teaching just because it claims to be one, if we would then we would have to concede to cults like JW,LDS & RC.
The most basic and significant definition of a circle us that its a shape with no corners. A thing can not be a circle regardless if it has 1 or more corners, the same way The Gospel that saves cant have a deliberate interpretational difference than the most essenti attribute that qualifies its being.
Calvinism, if persistently accepted as consistent Christian teaching breaks (i.e. law of non-contradiction and excluded middle) all logical credibility Christianity has that makes it the absolute truth about God.
I pray that we will not be discouraged to speak the truth in love in exposing false gospels that has been cleverly used by the enemy to mislead sincere faithed men and women, since the time of Augustine
:We all know Calvinism is a different gospel (read what Paul says about those who preach a different gospel and a different Christ) and yet to Dr.Leighton that's immaterial and irrelevant because we are ALL brothers in Christ even though we believe different gospels.Does that make sense to you?.
I actually agree, it seems to me their understanding of the nature of God is more in line with Muslim theology than Christian and Jewish understandings of the one true God.
@@ipaporod I don't believe it IS "immaterial and irrelevant" to him, I believe he sees that and that's the reason he fights so hard to expose Calvinism as a false teaching, Leighton's treatment of James White has more to do with how he believes Christ taught us to act toward others that with what James White believes. I do believe this is how Leighton would treat ANYONE who disagrees with him, regardless of religion, race, gender or topic, it's not that he doesn't find Whites teachings to be destructive, he DOES, that's why he created this channel and spends so much time on it, it's that Leighton walks in Christ and in doing so, treats others with the respect he has for the image of God they bear.
@@marydetray6776 :. JESUS said it very plain and clear for us to understand "you can not serve two masters", if Calvinism /TULIP is a false Gospel (a false version of Jesus Christ Gospel) then abviously whoever teach and preach Calvinism is NOT an orthodox christian nor is he my brother/sister IN Christ. You can not have it both ways (2 versions of the same Gospel) because both ways contradicts each other!.
I am like Paul regarding this matter, Paul called out false teachings and FALSE brothers in the faith and so do I!.Paul always treated others with respect and love (just as brother Leighton does) but he did not compromised the integrity of the Gospel by calling his brothers IN Christ those which he knew were FALSE teachers of a FALSE gospel!!!.
We must take a stand, we are either for Christ or against Him, there is NO middle/neutral ground.I for one stand for Jesus Christ Gospel and reject this false version of the gospel called Calvinism/TULIP.
I do love brother Leighton and deeply respect his work but I have to depart from him concerning this "we are ALL brothers IN Christ" thing because it is NOT the way Paul viewed the gospel and how Paul taught the church as to who is to be regarded as a TRUE believer/brother in the FAITH!. Paul is an appointed by Our Lord Jesus Christ apostle and Leighton is not therefore I imitate Paul's attitude/ reaction towards those who spread false doctrine/and false teachings!.
Therefore who ever preach another gospel is not my brother or sister in Christ, there can not be 2 gospels (2 versions of the gospel).Do I love Calvinists?, of course I do with ALL my heart, same as I love Catholics and wish for them to come to the FULL knowledge of Christ.God bless you sister.
I've just thought of a term for determinists. They're 'Aug-Gnostics" (short for Augustinian Gnostics)!
What a blessing both of you are. This was a great time of learning about any many things relating to Augustine and the current beliefs on the beginnings of Calvinistic ideas to demonstrating how to gracefully handle another's attacks. Thank you for today's podcast Dr. Flowers! BTW I am a pastor dealing with so many young peoples adversly impacted by reformed ideas.
I just wanted to commend you both for taking the time to present truth. Your arguments are thoughtful, filled with evidence and references, and given with grace. I can’t say the same about your opponent. God bless you both and your ministries!
After watching this, my guess is White doesn’t sleep well tonight.
People should distance themselves from white till he repents !!!
Far from it, Durbin just said Jesus was a calvinist
@@drums2go615 Good idea but they won’t. He’s semi-famous and ppl are fanboys.
@@juaneato well put my freind
@@abashedsanctimony154 LOL!!!!!!
Thank you so much for having Dr. Wilson back on your program. I recently purchased his book, The Foundation of Augustinian Calvinism, and hope to begin reading next week. This was a great discussion today; thank you Dr. Wilson, and thank you for the prayer at the closing. I feel quite sorry for James White; he appears to be a troubled man that struggles with the concepts of who and what the God of the Bible is, and how He relates to humankind. His comments at about 44 min. forward are most telling, here lies real confusion. It is true that God has put into motion certain laws of physics that govern the processes of matter in what we see in creation; the stars, the earth, the nature of physics relating to electro-magnetism, the precise relation our earth has with functioning in our solar system, the processes of the biological world, etc. Created matter and its process; it absolutely is held together by "God's universal laws." However, human beings were created in God's image. Rocks, stars, trees, dogs, cats, fish, etc.were not. We were created to uniquely relate to our Creator, to know Him in an intimate way, that was different than the angelic realm. Sorry, Dr. White, but the Gnostic influence in your Calvinism has deeply affected the way you think about humanity, God, and how He relates to us. Only human beings receive the Holy Spirit of God...without His Spirit, we do not know salvation, we cannot rightly apprehend the Word of God, and we cannot comprehend His plan for our lives.
KEN't wait 😄
hahahahha, You had to wait for long time to say that, congratulations
@@jwasily ahaha guilty
White is so insulting...His attitude and arrogance are so prevalent as to let you know you don’t want to be a Calvinist. I see no Christlikness in him
Sometimes I really wonder if he is born again due this attitude of his, he criticized everybody but he doesn't like to be criticized by other, the other day a couple of guys apologized in public for a strong critique the had towards white, bc they were convicted, but I had never seen white apologize to anybody and I don't understand his need to debate other Christians who do not hold his theological views like William lane Craig
Calvinism is his idol
Before I really knew anything about reformed theology, I used to listen and watch JW and found lessons on cults very informative, but I never saw JW as very charitable toward anyone who isn’t in his camp. He was too prideful for me, so I took a break. Then, I started watching this channel and realized that his head was too big, and that I made the right call when I decided to no longer listen to the dividing line. You can teach Koine Greek all you want, but pride will always limit your outreach.
We become what we worship. Behold the God of Calvinism.
It’s really sad when people always claim James white is “arrogant”. Why? Because his personality is a little more stern then what you prefer? Get over yourself. Being a Christian doesn’t mean you are constantly smiling and telling everyone how much you love them. Geez I’m so sick of the insults to James white.
Thank you Mr Flowers and Mr Wilson-this was fascinating. It opened me up to a whole different theological world that I never knw existed..
I agree, this is very good. Very damaging to Calvinism because they get at the historical roots of Calvinism from primarily Augustine's influence when he returned to deterministic concepts is his pre conversation life. The careful and clear explanations of this dialogue which also exposes White's logical fallacies.
I think Dr. white drives away many more potential Calvinist converts than he brings into the fold. Keep up the good work Dr. White.
My dad's 20+ Bibles and first two volumes of The Ante-Nicene Fathers look like coloring books.... just to say how well studied he was. I know he would agree with you and Dr. Wilson, because I do. Partly because of my dad's influence, partly because of my own studies, but also because Calvin turned out to be a political tyrant, and Jesus said, "You will know a tree by its fruit. Also, I believe the way James White gaslights, deflects, projects, and mischaracterizes is a reflection of his distorted doctrine. It certainly isn't very gracious or Christlike. All I see is bitter, rotten fruit. But, who am I to judge?
Ana, I never see bitterness, attacks, or mocking coming from confident debaters.
The last, desperate weapon of those with a weak argument and the ill-informed is a personal attack.
That would be James White.
And notice all the conditions he insists on for a debate.
One thing I do think that those with knowledge should do before EVER debating the ill-informed and the die-hard Calvinists is set the condition that terms like " sovereignty,"
must be defined and agreed on before any debate.
James White plays a shell game, leaving his opponents on the defense. He falsely states his opponents position and constantly moves the debate to something new.
It's impossible to effectively debate anyone who will not agree to definitions and consistently misstatements their opponents view.
Or they link together 2 concepts that are not related, i.e., sovereignty and determinism.
Non Calvinists believe in the sovereignty of God, that God can do anything, but disagree that God DID determine one group saved and the other group damned as Calvinists claim.
The argument for non- Calvinists is that God in His sovereignty predestined a plan that all could be saved, and in His foreknowledge was aware of those who would freely accept and those that would reject the offer of salvation.
J.W. and others establish a false premise ( Easter Bunny) as the position of their opponent, then tag a truth on to it.
J.W.: We all know the Easter Bunny can't forgive our sins.
@@sheilasmith7779 Great statement. I believe james white's sister said it well..."James White is someone doing a very good job of destroying a church that doesn’t exist"
Thanks for this ministry! So thankful for it.
After weeks and weeks of White pounding his fists, do you think Dr. Wilson will do hand reconstruction surgery for free?
Silliness aside, I hope White repents of this disgraceful behavior. I use to be a fan of his but more and more he has turned rude, condescending, nasty, and frankly un-Christ like.
He’s been that way for the longest
That is the Calvinist way because Jean Cauvin formed a "religion" around his own dark personality, ultra narcissism combined with limited understanding of most concepts of the Bible including ancient Hebrew, customs, etc x 10k. Because Cauvin was so limited in so many ways, (including and especially, spiritual aspects) he HAD to rely on implementing and enforcing The Law of the OT. That is why Calvinism is soooo reliant upon legalism, because the Spirit was missing from Cauvin. When you don't have the Spirit then you rely upon words to form laws made up by people. The Reformed arena is packed to the gills with legalism coupled with denying much of the work of the Spirit.
Thanks for a great programme. I'm about half way through The foundation of Augustinian Calvinism. I love it, highly informative. Thanks again, from a theology geek in Hungary.
I can’t get enough of this podcast and I’m grateful for all of them. Thank you to Dr. Wilson for his wonderful book
I was looking into the similarities between Atheist determinism and Calvin determinism when I came upon this video. Wow Dr Wilson brilliantly explained the historical Hellenistic roots of Calvin theology.
Thank you Dr Leighton for having such a brilliant, dynamite quest May the truth set us free
Amazing discussion! A must watch for anyone interested in Calvinism vs Free Will debate.
Dr. Ken Wilson is a real doctorate in more ways than one.
White isn't a real doctor lol. Never could be bothered doing the study...
It is very tough when your theological foundation's are challenged. We all use a lense when we approach the text, to discover that lens was slanted by Gnostic can be a tough pill to swallow.
That's what it dems like top me. White has to go "all in" against this. If Wilson is right, then every Calvinist is a "semi-manichean". (It doesn't feel good when people call you a heretic, or a "semi" heretic.) If Wilson proves to be correct them this will pull Calvinism down.
If White has to fight this fight. Furthermore if he starts to lose, then he will get help from others, namely the big boy Calvinists.
Yeah especially when you've built your reputation on a very specific interpretation of the bible.
Except it’s comparing apples and oranges. Guess your only listening to one side. Gnosticism is nothing compared to a biblical worldview .
@@darriuscole8544 lol, semi‐manichean. Like White always wants to call provisionists semi‐palegeans!🤣
Interesting that White turns off comments...
I hate that. It paints a picture, I am not sure what it is exactly. But there are not too many good reasons to turn off comments.
@@Jamie-Russell-CME Dislike that myself. Not like he has to comment on any of them or even moderate. Just let people discuss...dang
It's all about control, there is a preacher I used to follow who did the same, then opened the comments once and threatened how he can easily close it again if people say xyz.
If I received as many hateful comments as he would, I would turn off comments too.
"I am willing to go where the data takes me so long as it is to Calvinism."
I honestly believe that Calvinists seek the wisdom of man and not the wisdom of the Spirit of God.
@@jahiddle In my lifetime of growing up in and next to Calvinism, I noticed a trend. Followers tend to quote other fellow Calvinists who they like. They will quote the Bible when its convenient for their argument but as we know its often twisted out of context.
@@Baltic_Hammer6162 they also preach and teach, often sounding the same as non Calvinists until or unless they are attempting to teach 5 of their 9 points.
Thank you for exposing this fraud. His diploma mill doctorate is showing its value.
What are you talking about please explain
!
@@drums2go615 Dr. Whites doctorate is from a non accredited online school
@@ethankeating1644 Tell me more I need to know this I have a dear Christian friend who looks up to white like hes God
@@drums2go615 I don’t know much more than that
@@drums2go615 you need to do your own research on Mr. White
When Calvin quotes Augustine, it should have been a clue to all scholars claiming to be Calvinists, because any scholar having read Calvin's institutes know how contradictory to the God breathed words they are and how aligned with Augustine, even quoting him hundreds of times, and if then, those scholars have read the early church fathers that they did not teach Miticulous Determinism. No actual biblical scholar having read Augustine and Calvin and early church writings should believe Calvinism or be in shock by Wilson's book, a complete scholarship and James is shamefully bewildered by a real scholar.
Can't wait for this, it's going to be EPIC, I bet
I have been texting your first show with Dr. Wilson and this rebuttal to everyone I know. I am 55 and been a Christian since I was 19 and have never heard such phenomenal teachings as I have heard on your shows. Scholarship based upon scripture mixed with logic is the key to understanding hard texts and understanding what was actually taught by the church fathers as well. This is all based upon taking scriptures in context and correctly representing whoever you are talking about.
"God's a good guesser." - White
Does he not know that God is above time, having created it, and is outside of time, not being bound by it? Does he not know that God can see everything from one end of eternity to the other, because he is omnipresent, even in time? No, he knows this, he was just being a smug punk because he has no real argument.
I know this will trigger Calvinists but according to their theology it is not possible for a person to submit to God. It is apparent listening to JW that he has not submitted to God, otherwise he would not lie about Ken's position. I am unaware of a more hateful and arrogant Christian theologian out there.
How can anybody dislike this!?
Non Playable Character
Easy.... be a Calvinist 🤣
@@solideogloriaapologetics8901 know or simply determen, go throu it and show us.
I was about to love it until he brought up the “new world order” BS. I thought I was listening to a theologian, not a right wing conspiracy theorist.
@@kylebarney3126 that doesn’t negate the validity of his research and the facts found verified by his evidence.
It makes me question his entire world view, to be honest.
Excellent presentation. Thanks to both of you for taking the time to go through the 15 hours of James White's attacks. It's crystal clear that Augustine brought determinism into Christianity. My suggestion for a subtitle of this discussion: The Day Calvinism Ended in the 21st Century!!
Wonderful discussion! I echo that prayer for Dr. White.
Dr. Flowers, do you have a link to purchase Dr. Ken's Doctoral Dissertation?
Me want too!
Available on Amazon for $122. It is relatively expensive, although I would have paid more given the content.
I recommend getting it through interlibrary loan.
Steven Penner Do you have a link for Amazon? I’m having hard time finding it.
Nevermind everyone. I was able to find it at Amazon and purchase it. Thanks.
I’m so glad to see someone finally calling out “Dr” White on his unaccredited online PhD. I’ve been wondering for years if anyone was going to have the guts to do that.
Does "online" diminish the work he has done? During this pandemic everyone is doing the same. Blended learning is pretty normal these days and eventually, most people enrolled in degree programs will be working online to earn their credit. Accreditation has meaning if a potential career or employer requires it. Gaining knowledge and wisdom in a field of interest is the important factor in education.
Marc Salyer Online absolutely doesn’t diminish anything. I got a biblical studies degree online and it was vigorous. What diminishes his credibility is the fact that the South African school he got his “PhD” from is unaccredited and is notorious for being a diploma mill. Do a little research into it. Don’t take my word for it.
Marc Salyer also, I’m not saying Mr White isn’t knowledgeable. He clearly is. But it is pretty disingenuous to use the title Dr when you know you got your doctorate from a diploma mill. It speaks to his integrity
If I were a genius scholar, such as Dr Wilson, I would not give a babbler like James White the time of day. He's not a serious challenge to someone of Dr Wilson's pedigree. He's not even a challenge to idol killer, Warren McGrew, which is why White refuses to debate him. He knows killer will live up to his name and humiliate him publicly. Dr. Wilson is so far above and beyond rambling babbling James that it's absolutely laughable. In short, being publicly humiliated by Dr. Wilson will still get him brownie points in the twisted world of Calvinism. Not so with Warren however, as killer is not a scholar or degreed.
I propose that we all begin calling Calvinists "semi-Gnostics."
I mean, if they insist on calling provisionists "Pelagians" or "semi-Pelagians," then what's good for the goose ought to be good for the gander, no? And if they don't like it and buck against it, just remind them of their double-standard and publicly call them out for what they are: pots calling kettles black.
This was so great!! Dr. Wilson just got a new fan! Would love to read his dissertation soon!
FELLOW NON/EX REFORMERS (and even reformers, too): I challenge all of us to lift up our BROTHER James in prayer, that God would overwhelm him with His Spirit, with love and with blessing, that Jesus would speak to his heart and give him eyes to see and ears to hear!
Any interaction with James White is pointless. He has completely shut himself off to fraternal correction.
Been waiting for his response I'm sure it will be more than adequate to meet the challenge
When Wilson goes through what he believes differentiating salvation comes through repentance and 'sanctification' rather than just 'justification' as White puts it is very wise. He gets what 'pistis' really means in the New Testament world. Not just the infantile perversion of Martin Luther and Calvin that it is just a one and done deal. Check out deSilva's 'Honor, Patronage, Kinship & Purity'. Brilliant work that will either change or revitalise your Christian walk!
:The issue arises when Calvinists put the horse before the cart, ONE MUST 1st BE JUSTIFIED (ELECTION) BEFORE REPENTING AND BEEN SANCTIFIED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT WHICH IS THE PERSON WHO GRANTS YOU SANCTIFICATION.
@@ipaporod That's why Dr Wilson stated White as 'justification' and himself 'sanctification'. The point is your salvation is not a one and done deal. It is to be 'worked out' and realised through allowing the Holy Spirit to take hold of us ie Romans 8. We are continually being saved is probably the best description. You can't just go to some service convert and then go back to your old life. Sure there will be hiccups along the way as we still have the flesh. But you cannot go and be like a Romans 5:15 kind of pseudo-Christian.
I know Dr. White provides lots of fodder for Soteriology 101, and I am glad Dr. Wilson gets the chance to defend himself against White's accusations. However, at some point, Dr. Flowers, you need to move on from White. He is so unbelievably arrogant, demeaning, rude, condescending, and mean-spirited that he is now simply dishonoring the name of Christ every time he engages with you and your soteriological views, which obviously bring out the worst in him. Both of you would be better off taking a permanent break from each other.
I second that. Scripture instructs some men are to be simply avoided.
Brad Schield I agree brother
Titus 3:10 “A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.”
Dr Wilson is a wonderful scholar.
Thank you so much Dr Wilson
James will do anything to hold onto his theology.
I'm pretty sure my dad read all of Augustine's works multiple times. I know he considered him a heretic. Dr. Wilson said to name someone. His name was Stephen Wendt.
No doubt an incorrect interpretation of scripture can do damage to the church... but I am more concerned for the rebellious atheist. Augustine/Calvin is giving them a reason to stay in their sin, because it's not their fault that they are dead men walking.
Topher Saint Augustine is not a determinist like Calvin, some Calvinists want to paint that picture for you but that isn’t the case.
Been waiting for this! Your little book was WONDERFUL Dr. Wilson. Thank you Leighton for having him back on.
I’m going to include it in a book I’m doing. And I’ll put that bit in a comment on this channel.
This is gonna be off the hook!
This was off the hook! My condolences to James White.
Dr. Flowers, can yout put a clock on the screen of your videos so that we can make notes of the time stamps for review later?
The UA-cam timestamp is on the bottom left of the video.
James White should get a seat next to Whoopi Goldberg on The View.
Dr. Wilson made perfect sense and backed up everything he said, James White didn't fair so well. It is hard to make sense of anything he said academically. I wish James White would stick to one point and then prove it historically and Biblically. Sadly, I think he believes he does, but he doesn't even come close.
I absolutely love Ken Wilson! I'm sure he is a busy man but I would love to see him on your show more often if he has time! God bless brothers, keep up the good fight ❤
I'm at 39:17. White calls Wilson dishonest. Wow. White himself acts unregenerate, is disingenuous, intellectually dishonest, rude and completely unfair. Why people follow him I'll never know. We're I a Calvinist I'd listen to someone else.
Shaun Butler You're offended by White's use of dishonest and yet you use the same word again him two sentences later? Really.
Wilson made sweeping statements about church history in his book and dissertation. And he's not even a historian by trade or training. Wilson deserves to be exposed as he has been.
K Dude, I couldn't find any point or logic to your reply. Sorry.
HillDueceua That's an ad hominem. You just exposed yourself.
Any other White critics?
HillDueceua If you've got nothing against his arguments, he's already won and everyone can see it.
HillDueceua The argument of the exact nature of free will, love and the nature of God's holiness will never end because humans are simply too stupid to understand it.
These Calvinists are Trinitarian, they understand the Gospel and they fight Islam and social justice. If you're too into your own feelings to see how rare that is in this world, you need to grow up.
White will never do anything peer reviewed as no scholar worth their weight will allow it to be published... I still remember Mike Heiser telling him to debate him by peer reviewed articles. White stopped discussing Heiser's position soon after.
White is all bluster and no bite.
James White is being down right nasty and uncharitable in many of these clips. His tone is very ugly and not very Christlike. I’d love to hear his counter arguments to Ken Wilson but _without all the venom!_
I remember as a Christian first finding out about Calvinism and how utterly depressed I became at the belief God is NOT Good or Just but is only Sovereign and Holy and "Good and Just" was just a lottery system of his unknowable will. Look at the Pride and vanity that goes along with this.
Your conviction about your theology does manifest clearly on your personality, If Mr white believes in a God who cares nothing about but his own glorification then no wonder he acts that way.
Ouch thats a deep burn
Is there a Filipino translation of book Foundation of Augustinian calvinism?
Dude, James White is the grammatical, exegetical definition of "butt-hurt." Lol, this guy is so obviously reacting to this without any substantial claims. He doesn't cite anything, and he just throws big words out there to make his argument appear viable. I don't know if the dude needs to pray or get some preparation H.
God Bless!
Even as a young child I realized that something is wrong, with Calvin's view on election. Thank you Dr. Wilson your research helped me to understand why.
Amen!
Thank you Leighton Flowers and Ken Wilson!
GLORY TO GOD!
It never ceases to amaze me how far from 2 Timothy 2:24, 25 James White consistently is in engaging those of opposing soteriological views. He seems oblivious to how ugly, how condescending and ungracious, he is when dealing with Leighton in particular. In this, White is seriously failing, not only as an advocate for Reformed theology, but as an ambassador of Christ.
Perhaps hes not really an *"ambassador to Christ"* , perhaps he's an ambassador to his own ego & glory before men.
James White is a liar. He says he is willing to go where the data is taking him. This whole argument has shown what we all know. James White is willing to die on every hill in spite of the data to defend his position than to agree orthodoxy historically doesn't run through Calvinism.
James White needs to be a wheat farmer to supply his needs to build all his straw men.🤣
When your children or grandchildren are old enough to be taught about God, I challenge you and your spouse to tell them the terrible truths of Calvinism and then watch their spiritual progress over the ensuing years.
Tell them what you believe about God:
Little Johnny, God has predestined the minority of people to be saved and go to heaven forever, and He has predestined the majority of people to be eternally damned and burn in the fires of hell. We have no idea, little Johnny, if God has predestined you to be forever damned or forever saved.
We love you, little Johnny, but we accept the fact that God might not love you, and that He may have plans to send you to hell for your future sins. If you do find yourself one day burning in hell because He hasn’t elected to save you, just remember that we will always love you, even if God hates you.
Take comfort knowing that we are not like God.
We will be in heaven forever only because we were unconditionally chosen for salvation before we were born. That would be the only reason that we won’t be in hell with you if you find yourself there. It won’t be because of anything we did.
So also take comfort in knowing that. It may not seem fair, but who are we to judge God?
So again, if you find yourself in hell, remember that we will always love you as we forever worship the God who loved us but who hated you, the God who sent His Son to die for us but not for you.
Please, we ask, don’t let it bother you-if you find yourself in hell-that we love the God who hated you and showed you no mercy. We must accept the fact that God is sovereign, and He does what He pleases.
My dear beloved Calvinist, will you teach that to your children or grandchildren?
I suspect that your answer will be “never.” But why not?
Why would you ever hide the wonderful “doctrines of grace,” the “Bible truth,” from your own children or grandchildren?
TRUTH IN LOVE
Don’t forget that those same hypocritical Calvinists would have spoken out of the other side of their mouths and also taught little Johnny to sing 🎶 the real truth that “Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so”. Hopefully when Johnny grows up to be a man, he will remember the song more than the Calvinist doctrines.
✝️📖🙏🏼😇
@@oldglory6922 So true. When I speak to a Calvinist Reformed church goer one on one, they have no hesitation to tell me God doesn't want to save everyone. I have been in many Reformed churches hearing they preach to the masses and they almost sound like Billy Graham and you would expect an alter call coming next.
It so two minded and deceptive. Forked tongue!
TRUTH IN LOVE
@@truth7416
Christ died and rose again for every little Johnny or Annie that has ever been born, or ever will be!
✝️📖🙏🏼
@@oldglory6922 Let me restart my pacemaker! I am actually hearing some common sense truth on a pagan website!
Thanks Old Glory you made my day. Keep on posting against this doctrine of demons. Some will wake up.
TRUTH IN LOVE
I bought and read Dr. Wilson 's book. Unless it is woefully untrue, there is NO doubt that TULIP and the supporting doctrines were introduced to the church through Augustine' s pre-conversion, Manicean philosophy creeping into his understanding of the Scripture.
1:10:55
Yeah when I say the god of calvinism I dont mean every calvinist is unsaved. Or that in their mind they dont believe it's the same God scripture communicates. Most laymen just wanna know God, and get taken captive with good intentions, into this empty deceit and philosophy based on tradition.
I was saved and then got taken captive in calvinism. Being a calvinist doesnt mean your not saved. I was saved while being a calvinist. I was just deceived.
However, the point I think is hard to deny. If I say we both believe in bob. I describe bob as a kind and loving, impartial and charitable man. And you say bob is duplicitous and kind to those he favors and very concerned with everyone seeing how powerful he is, to the point he buys slaves just for the purpose of torturing.
Can it be said we are describing the same man?
The way the system of calvinism describes god, creates a completely different picture of God, in both his nature and character. Thus logically it can not be said they are the God.
If this is the case then it can be said the mormons, JW, muslims, and Catholics are all describing the same God of abraham as well. There are only differences in what they think he is like.
Calvinism presents a god that says openly he wants all to come, but didn't provide the means or attonement for them to come, because secretly he has willed their destruction. A god whom cant know the future free choices of men. A god whom is a lot like us, in that he esteems glory as his power over everything, and is self serving. A god that logically is completely different in character then what I think scripture clearly reveals in Jesus.
Is it dangerous and bad, yeah. Does it mean every calvinist is aware or has thought through this, no. We are gonna be judges based on whether we are born again, not based on how much we know. Ideas have application and affect us. We see that in history. Determinists and calvinists were far less likely to love their enemies, as jesus commanded. It causes confusion and even rejection of God by unbelievers, who think its christianity. It is a stumbling block to Faith.
That said though I don't have to be unkind. Or mean or anything else. But to pretend it's the same thing is actually counter productive to True unity. We should speak the Truth and love people , build relationship and invite people to think critically. The church is in the sick state it is in, I think, because the leaven of our own tradition has so infected our thoughts about God there is little clarity or unity or love. It has embraces forms of naturalism and so many traditions, we bite and devour and are consumed from within. While the world looks on wanting nothing to do with it.
And who wins when this happens? Satan.
Rev 13 talks about how the beast grows in power leading up to the end. Given finally permission to make war and conquer the saints. Looking around it's not hard to imagine how easy it will be for him to do. We so half of his work for him.
Just some things to seriously think through you guys. Love ya'll❤
thank you so much for your words of wisdom!!! PEACE TO YOU
Reading this was excellent!
Amen! Well said
White should never put anyone down for their pronunciation of Greek. His own pronunciation is abysmal. I know because my teacher was from Greece and because each Greek vowel has only ONE SOUND. Yet when White pronounces Greek vowels he does not use those sounds but substitutes English short and long vowel sounds at will. This is no mystery but very simple and straight-forward.
The difference in character between the two of you vs James White is telling. He comes across as an ego-driven immature 'man-boy'. He appears to attract fanboys, not mature, well-rounded deep thinkers. More concerned with creating a cult following amongst the easily led than engaging honestly and respectfully - he might learn something if he did, but that would be psychologically uncomfortable for him, so best avoided. His arrogance is too much for me. And frankly, compared to you two, he is out of his depth. You gentlemen (for that is what you are) are a breath of fresh air, and I've learnt so much from you, and have only just discovered you very recently. I knew something was very 'off' in the church I'd wandered into, but couldn't put my finger on it. You have shown me it was the TULIP contagion. Everything makes sense now. Thanks so much for speaking out, and doing so in a way that's a class above.
I was thinking how the character of the men is so different.
*Thank you Dr. Wilson! This was life transforming for me!*
*This needs to be reviewed again.
1:35:00 the Greek grammatical “whole package” of salvation
2:18:25 I do differ w/ the good dr. In comparing oneness Pentecostals to Muslims. I hold to the trinity as an important truth but I do not believe an entire understanding of a truth no one understands fully is essential for salvation. They believe that Christ is God and do display a grace produced holiness.
I've always thought White was a sound debater against other religions and cults, I hadn't notice him use fallacies. But on this area I disagree with him and all I can see is ad hominim and appeal to emotion. Perhaps I was just blind to it when I agreed with him. Either way his behaviour with Flowers and Wilson undermines his apologetics ministry.
LDS have noticed his arrogance and fallacies for decades.
Super interested in reading his article on James, but so far, I need to be a student (university or grad school) or subscribe to the entire Society of Biblical Literature -- is there a way to buy a digital copy of the article itself?
I would like the link for the Spanish version of the book.
When is the Dr. White and Dr. Wilson debate happening?
If we define God by his characteristics, the Calvinist god is in fact a different god. It is in fact, Pagan.
You're not alowed to use logic.
The pandemic and all its restrictions is over. Is there any discussion now about a debate between Dr. White and Dr. Wilson?
This is gonna be awesome 🤩🤩🤩
Ha ha it was.
The plain fact that James White rejects Reasonable Argument of his deterministic view is strong evidence that this mans "god" is hie intellect. That is just so obvious. If you cannot see truth then you are not of the Truth.