Chris Rice told the story of a Toyota tundra Bill Davis allegedly bought, going to the wind tunnel on DBC. I’m assuming it was a rolling wind tunnel where the road is moving under the vehicle and it’s strapped in place. The team didn’t tighten the straps and the truck ran into the fan blades and destroyed the tunnel. ua-cam.com/video/MqYW0KMd5mA/v-deo.html
Here's a story that makes Bill Davis' look amateur. In 1991 Patrick Racing was taking over the Alfa Romeo Indycar project. It had seen lots of teething problems the previous two years with another team, and it was hoped that an Indy 500 winning team with an Indy 500 winning driver in Danny Sullivan would be set them on the right track. Now, in 1990, Patrick had used the dominant engine, the Chevy Ilmor. And because he was no longer an Ilmor client, Patrick needed to ship his spare engines back to the company in the UK. So, Pat Patrick ordered the Ilmors boxed up and sent back. With a slight detour in Turin, Italy, which just happens to be the home of Alfa Romeo. You can see where this is going, right? Ilmor kept asking for their engines back, got the "engine's in the mail" runaround, but finally got them back. With them both looking like they'd been "examined" thoroughly by someone not employed by Ilmor. Supposedly, one was complete and the other was in pieces, but I can't confirm that. Didn't help. The Alfa engine was still garbage, and by the end of the season the contract ran out. Patrick wanted to buy used Ilmors from Newman Haas, and was promptly told by Ilmor that he could forget that idea. Pat Patrick then sold the team to Bobby Rahal; that team is now known as Rahal Letterman Lanigan, two-time Indy 500 winner. Postscript: Patrick would try a return to the sport in 1994, with Ford engines, spending a year doing tire tests for Firestone's return to the sport. They became the factory Firestone team in 1995 (remember, Goodyear had been the only supplier for decades), eventually closing in 2004
I'd have to say that a "wind tunnel test" uses a stationary car so realistically they were only testing the shape of the Toyota body, the engine probably wasn't even running, it was weight. I can understand Dodge wanting to distance themselves but it definitely wasn't cheating.
Depends on the wind tunnel. Some have rollers and are almost like a dynamometer. At that level every little bit helps so the slight change in airflow from the wheels/brakes turning and the engine running can be important. Even just the exhaust exit can have an effect. There have even been wheels over the years that would produce a little downforce…
Makes me giggle that the #31 CAT car was in a video about Bill Davis Racing. Considering that the #31 Cat car was driven by Jeff Burton for Richard Childress Racing
Let’s talk about how he Fielded that #55 Car in 2006 under a partnership With Michael and Doug Bowel replacing the #77 and that was a complete Failure.
Very true. Michael got himself in some real hot water with that stunt. I think NASCAR held back on the penalty (it was still enormous) to not embarrass Toyota
Hard to see how using the wrong fuel is somehow more nefarious then giving crucial information data from one Manufacturer to one who hasn't even entered yet. Its literal Spygate material, whereas the MWR incident was bumbling bafoonery (and I wouldn't be surprised if because of these two, Toyota went after Joe Gibbs Racing)
No it stems from dumb rednecks who casually ignore how much Chevy cheats because they believe Toyotas are built in Japan. Like I said, dumb hillbillies.
well ignoring ward burtons comments i find it interesting gordon and bobby labonte barely acknowledge bill davis racing. i mean basically in bobby's thing on earnhardt's pod cast he says i drove the 22 for 2 years then went to gibbs. that's litterally the whole of 93-94 except for the few busch races he ran (won one). i'd still like to know how he ended up int hat ride given how 92-96 ended up which i consider the greatest what if era of any major sport. i wasn't watching busch much till the end of 92, but the first time i remember talks about the 22 and labonte was during daytona testing in 1/93. anyways. i think dodge just wanted to stick it to davis. i don't think most manufacturers woudl really have cared. they were strugglign at the time and in a few years would e out of sport anyways.
2:31 random fact: in 2003, Roush Racing was toying with the idea of switching Jeff Burton’s 99 car to a Dodge Intrepid as a sort of experimental car, but it never materialized, as it wasn’t clear if one team could run more than one manufacturer.
The Bill Davis 71 Dirt Late Model is NOT the same Bill Davis that was in NASCAR. I just wanted to correct that bit of the video. The Bill Davis in the 71 car was (deceased) a legendary short track racer from NW Indiana. He mostly raced late models, limited late models, modified and street stocks. He posthumously holds a record at Kankakee (IL) Speedway of winning track titles in 4 different divisions.
nascar themselves had already given Toyota one of each manufacturer’s engine to develop their push rod V8 so what engineers in the test truck was irrelevant other than it’s weight and general shape for wind tunnel testing
@@BANGITSME87 After Adam Petty's accident Dodge essentially put both Ganassi and Davis ahead of Petty Enterpries in their pecking order. That was not the original plan.
Bill Davis sounds just like Curtis Key ….. horrible owner. ( Curtis Key owned a truck team and had a xfinity team and is the owner of the plumbing company I worked for ) .
Curtis WAS AWFUL...I worked for his race team for a short stint, everyone raced to the bank to CASH their paychecks, because the last couple EVERY WEEK were rubber. Terrible
8:12 "if you ain't cheatin, you ain't tryin". I've always heard that saying associated with baseball and parts of the sport like spitballs which are for some reason not really considered to be cheating. It's strange. Spitballs and the use of amphetamine (along with a few other tricks of the trade i can't think of right now) have been considered to be in a totally different category from steroids. Why they are I don't know when a lot of the effects of steroids are pretty similar to amphetamines (which the use of ran rampant in the late 20th century. Now you have to get a prescription for them from a dr) as the latter is pure energy while steroids help muscles recover quicker therefore increasing energy and endurance. I guess it's probably because the govt making steroids illegal (not until the late 80s, though) demonized them to a significant portion of the public at large, similar to all the other drugs the did the same to.
If you ask me Bill Davis's biggest mistake was switching to Dodge in 2001 I mean yeah you can make an argument that he should have moved to dodge but at the same time I think just staying with Pontiac would have been the right decision. Especially when he was working with the manufacturer when Coach Joe was there
Thing is… 1. They’re fighting for the number 2 spot in the Pontiac pecking order with Petty and MB2, behind Gibbs 2. Pontiac in turn was behind Chevy in the GM pecking order, with Childress and Hendrick getting top billing, and DEI and Petree behind them in the pecking order That’s a lot of teams to fight for GM resources. 2001, Dodge was Ganassi, Petty, BDR, and Evernham (there was Melling, but they were a backmarker, so…). Yeah, still plenty of teams to fight for resources for, but a bit easier to stand out in that pack. (4 of them compared to at least 7 in the GM camp)
@@PYLrulz1984And then Penske switched to Dodge and basically became the main Dodge team and relegated Bill Davis Racing to 4th on the pecking order, and naturally Bill Davis probably saw the writing on the wall that if the team stayed with Dodge they would always be in the midfield, meaning a new manufacturer (and being the main priority of said new manufacturer) would be needed to bring Bill Davis Racing to the front of the grid…and this strategy would probably have WORKED if not for the Great Recession causing Caterpillar to leave for RCR…
I suppose possession of what was THEIR engine at a place built specifically for Toyota and the potential implication of Selling data to a rival (which EVERYONE was and still is paranoid about, Especially with how those resources were distributed). Because the engine is consider their property, they kinda had the legal grounds to go after him for it even if it wasn't necessarily intentional (which to me if that were the case, says that Bill Davis was just awful about NOT taking more precautions to not raise suspicions)
@@needsmetalDodge was known to make great power especially the motors Ryan Newman was tuning with his crew chief. But Penske was the only Dodge team who year in and year out would win. Kasey Kahne was so up and down idk if I could say Evernham had the speed consistently.
Davis should have been the one to work on his own car like everyone else was, instead of trying to steal information. He only made it harder for hismelf
Here is my opinion may not make sense at first but what if we could let secrets be known between teams and let the teams hash it out on the track now before you start saying "wouldn't that take the excitement out of racing" or "that would mean everyone following the best formula aka the same thing means everyone will be the same pace or there abouts" no a good driver can overcome an equally performing car
@@SSinister_Grin Its weird that so many people don't get this. Competitors do not want THEIR data or parts being used by another competitor because that's giving away whatever advantage they had to someone else. I guarantee Chevy would've been just as pissed if Joe Gibbs did a similar thing.
@@RACECAR That's the thing, I've heard NASCAR let Toyota look at Ford and GM's blueprints for them to develop their pushrod engine... Just to make it easier to join the sport, NASCAR just saw big $$$ coming in.
Yep just waiting for the Formula 1 teams getting into Nascar then they can really start b******* and screaming about who's getting f**** bc those ppl know racing alot better then who's in racing now
Bill Davis was already Crazy Enough to Field Toyota's in Trucks and a Dodge in Cup and Busch
It was Chevy, Pontiac, and Dodge in Busch all in one season!
Chris Rice told the story of a Toyota tundra Bill Davis allegedly bought, going to the wind tunnel on DBC. I’m assuming it was a rolling wind tunnel where the road is moving under the vehicle and it’s strapped in place. The team didn’t tighten the straps and the truck ran into the fan blades and destroyed the tunnel.
ua-cam.com/video/MqYW0KMd5mA/v-deo.html
A true pioneer 😂
That was Toyota wasn’t proved yet to run in the cup series till 2007 they was aloud in the truck is in ‘04
@@JakeSimRacingimagine if Cougar joins in btw.
Ward should have left Davis long before he did. He could have had many more wins.
Tommy Baldwin and the gang had some success. They were always the up and coming team
Ward passed on the 18 with Gibbs before Labonte took the ride. Ward was an absolute wheelman.
2:27 rick hendrick owned multiple chevy dealerships and jack roush makes ford performance cars so they are never gonna switch manufacturers
Jack has done a GM nascar engine.
Roush has worked with both GM and Chrysler as well.
Mr Hendrick is gonna have to
@@Whitewizard1289 I thought that he was doing some Indy racing league stuff for GM in the late 90s early 2000s?
@@chrisbarrettFilmstudio Have to do what? Leave GM?, never happening.
Here's a story that makes Bill Davis' look amateur. In 1991 Patrick Racing was taking over the Alfa Romeo Indycar project. It had seen lots of teething problems the previous two years with another team, and it was hoped that an Indy 500 winning team with an Indy 500 winning driver in Danny Sullivan would be set them on the right track. Now, in 1990, Patrick had used the dominant engine, the Chevy Ilmor. And because he was no longer an Ilmor client, Patrick needed to ship his spare engines back to the company in the UK.
So, Pat Patrick ordered the Ilmors boxed up and sent back. With a slight detour in Turin, Italy, which just happens to be the home of Alfa Romeo. You can see where this is going, right? Ilmor kept asking for their engines back, got the "engine's in the mail" runaround, but finally got them back. With them both looking like they'd been "examined" thoroughly by someone not employed by Ilmor. Supposedly, one was complete and the other was in pieces, but I can't confirm that.
Didn't help. The Alfa engine was still garbage, and by the end of the season the contract ran out. Patrick wanted to buy used Ilmors from Newman Haas, and was promptly told by Ilmor that he could forget that idea. Pat Patrick then sold the team to Bobby Rahal; that team is now known as Rahal Letterman Lanigan, two-time Indy 500 winner.
Postscript: Patrick would try a return to the sport in 1994, with Ford engines, spending a year doing tire tests for Firestone's return to the sport. They became the factory Firestone team in 1995 (remember, Goodyear had been the only supplier for decades), eventually closing in 2004
You are one of those guys that talk to hear your own voice hey??
I'd have to say that a "wind tunnel test" uses a stationary car so realistically they were only testing the shape of the Toyota body, the engine probably wasn't even running, it was weight. I can understand Dodge wanting to distance themselves but it definitely wasn't cheating.
Depends on the wind tunnel. Some have rollers and are almost like a dynamometer. At that level every little bit helps so the slight change in airflow from the wheels/brakes turning and the engine running can be important. Even just the exhaust exit can have an effect.
There have even been wheels over the years that would produce a little downforce…
youre not wrong but the impersonation of staff is hard to excuse
Even if he was "doing the easy thing" ain't no way he wasn't thinking about possible repercussions lol
Makes me giggle that the #31 CAT car was in a video about Bill Davis Racing. Considering that the #31 Cat car was driven by Jeff Burton for Richard Childress Racing
Very ironic CAT went over to sponsor Jeff when allegedly Davis dropped Ward to keep CAT happy
Let’s talk about how he Fielded that #55 Car in 2006 under a partnership With Michael and Doug Bowel replacing the #77 and that was a complete Failure.
Bill Davis is one of the funniest looking fellas around and for no one obvious reason, he just looks like an Office Space character
“If you ain't cheatin’, you ain't tryin’.”
Eddie Guerrero mentality right there.
I thought it’s “If you ain’t cheating, you ain’t winning.”
@@roydrink Do a google search for "If you ain't cheatin' quote" and you'll get the background on the quote.
Sounds less nefarious than what MWR did at Daytona in 2007.
Very true. Michael got himself in some real hot water with that stunt. I think NASCAR held back on the penalty (it was still enormous) to not embarrass Toyota
Not when you give the dodge engine to Toyota for them to use as a starting point.
Hard to see how using the wrong fuel is somehow more nefarious then giving crucial information data from one Manufacturer to one who hasn't even entered yet. Its literal Spygate material, whereas the MWR incident was bumbling bafoonery (and I wouldn't be surprised if because of these two, Toyota went after Joe Gibbs Racing)
So I guess this is where the saying “Them cheatin Toyoters” stems from.
No it stems from dumb rednecks who casually ignore how much Chevy cheats because they believe Toyotas are built in Japan. Like I said, dumb hillbillies.
I used to work for Bill Davis, he hated bananas
Why?
2:29 There was talk in the late 90s or early 2000s Hendrick might've moved to Pontiac.
Yeah. If I remember correctly the Pedigree car Jack Sprague drove in 1996 owned by Schrader was a Hendrick car. Either way, still a GM product!
@JakeSimRacing It was!
The correct phrase is "If you're not cheating, you're not trying."
I know other people have done videos about this story, but do you think you can do the Angela Harkness and the Angela Motorsports scandal story?
well ignoring ward burtons comments i find it interesting gordon and bobby labonte barely acknowledge bill davis racing. i mean basically in bobby's thing on earnhardt's pod cast he says i drove the 22 for 2 years then went to gibbs. that's litterally the whole of 93-94 except for the few busch races he ran (won one). i'd still like to know how he ended up int hat ride given how 92-96 ended up which i consider the greatest what if era of any major sport. i wasn't watching busch much till the end of 92, but the first time i remember talks about the 22 and labonte was during daytona testing in 1/93. anyways. i think dodge just wanted to stick it to davis. i don't think most manufacturers woudl really have cared. they were strugglign at the time and in a few years would e out of sport anyways.
2:31 random fact: in 2003, Roush Racing was toying with the idea of switching Jeff Burton’s 99 car to a Dodge Intrepid as a sort of experimental car, but it never materialized, as it wasn’t clear if one team could run more than one manufacturer.
The Bill Davis 71 Dirt Late Model is NOT the same Bill Davis that was in NASCAR. I just wanted to correct that bit of the video. The Bill Davis in the 71 car was (deceased) a legendary short track racer from NW Indiana. He mostly raced late models, limited late models, modified and street stocks. He posthumously holds a record at Kankakee (IL) Speedway of winning track titles in 4 different divisions.
Ah, you're right! I apologize for the mix-up. I should have checked deeper on that one!
JG saw the future and dipped soon as Hendrick called lmfaooo
Sounds like he was desperate to stay competitive and was in over his head.
nascar themselves had already given Toyota one of each manufacturer’s engine to develop their push rod V8 so what engineers in the test truck was irrelevant other than it’s weight and general shape for wind tunnel testing
Davis got what he deserved. Dodge didn't play. They fined Kyle Petty $25G for relief driving for Harvick at Bristol.
They didn’t win either.
@@BANGITSME87 After Adam Petty's accident Dodge essentially put both Ganassi and Davis ahead of Petty Enterpries in their pecking order. That was not the original plan.
man i feel sorry for Ward Burton. his loyalty to Davis pretty much wrecked his career
I hate WAWWRD BUWWRWTON
@@borismcfinnigan3430 😕
Much like Greg Biffle's loyalty to Roush.
@@tomanderson6335 indeed. and Biffle was so old by that point that he didn't really have another chance, unlike Ward.
Bill Davis sounds just like Curtis Key ….. horrible owner. ( Curtis Key owned a truck team and had a xfinity team and is the owner of the plumbing company I worked for ) .
Curtis WAS AWFUL...I worked for his race team for a short stint, everyone raced to the bank to CASH their paychecks, because the last couple EVERY WEEK were rubber. Terrible
Davis doesn't sound horrible at all
You’re seriously comparing a cup winning car owner to Curtis Key? Come on dude.
8:12 "if you ain't cheatin, you ain't tryin". I've always heard that saying associated with baseball and parts of the sport like spitballs which are for some reason not really considered to be cheating. It's strange.
Spitballs and the use of amphetamine (along with a few other tricks of the trade i can't think of right now) have been considered to be in a totally different category from steroids.
Why they are I don't know when a lot of the effects of steroids are pretty similar to amphetamines (which the use of ran rampant in the late 20th century. Now you have to get a prescription for them from a dr) as the latter is pure energy while steroids help muscles recover quicker therefore increasing energy and endurance.
I guess it's probably because the govt making steroids illegal (not until the late 80s, though) demonized them to a significant portion of the public at large, similar to all the other drugs the did the same to.
your pic at 1:11 of the orange #71 camaro is bill davis from indiana. not the nascar owner.
Would love to see Dodge return to Nascar with that new Charger 2 door body.
If you ask me Bill Davis's biggest mistake was switching to Dodge in 2001
I mean yeah you can make an argument that he should have moved to dodge but at the same time I think just staying with Pontiac would have been the right decision.
Especially when he was working with the manufacturer when Coach Joe was there
Thing is…
1. They’re fighting for the number 2 spot in the Pontiac pecking order with Petty and MB2, behind Gibbs
2. Pontiac in turn was behind Chevy in the GM pecking order, with Childress and Hendrick getting top billing, and DEI and Petree behind them in the pecking order
That’s a lot of teams to fight for GM resources.
2001, Dodge was Ganassi, Petty, BDR, and Evernham (there was Melling, but they were a backmarker, so…). Yeah, still plenty of teams to fight for resources for, but a bit easier to stand out in that pack. (4 of them compared to at least 7 in the GM camp)
@@PYLrulz1984And then Penske switched to Dodge and basically became the main Dodge team and relegated Bill Davis Racing to 4th on the pecking order, and naturally Bill Davis probably saw the writing on the wall that if the team stayed with Dodge they would always be in the midfield, meaning a new manufacturer (and being the main priority of said new manufacturer) would be needed to bring Bill Davis Racing to the front of the grid…and this strategy would probably have WORKED if not for the Great Recession causing Caterpillar to leave for RCR…
Whatever it was, we fans loved that team back then. Bill Davis is forever a cool mfer in my book
I feel like; the engine isn't running in the wind tunnel, so why does it matter?
You’re not wrong, but Dodge definitely did not see it that way!
Cooling flows and other data
I'm guessing that was simply the final straw.
I suppose possession of what was THEIR engine at a place built specifically for Toyota and the potential implication of Selling data to a rival (which EVERYONE was and still is paranoid about, Especially with how those resources were distributed). Because the engine is consider their property, they kinda had the legal grounds to go after him for it even if it wasn't necessarily intentional (which to me if that were the case, says that Bill Davis was just awful about NOT taking more precautions to not raise suspicions)
Bill really shot himself in the foot. He could have sat tight until the Dodge contract expired...
Cute of dodge to call Toyota a rival… one of the two hasn’t been bouncing between owners my entire 33 years on earth
If your in the wind tunnel, what difference does an engine make?
he let toyota re-engineer a dodge motor
@@needsmetalDodge was known to make great power especially the motors Ryan Newman was tuning with his crew chief. But Penske was the only Dodge team who year in and year out would win. Kasey Kahne was so up and down idk if I could say Evernham had the speed consistently.
Davis should have been the one to work on his own car like everyone else was, instead of trying to steal information. He only made it harder for hismelf
Is this an ai generated voice? That aside good video
Here is my opinion may not make sense at first but what if we could let secrets be known between teams and let the teams hash it out on the track now before you start saying "wouldn't that take the excitement out of racing" or "that would mean everyone following the best formula aka the same thing means everyone will be the same pace or there abouts" no a good driver can overcome an equally performing car
They do that. That’s why they have laser inspection and all the cars look the same and they have engine suppliers not each team doing its own.
@Whitewizard1289 not entirely as setups and that kinda stuff is still hush hush until 20-30 years afterwards
I'll go with Ward here and not trust ANYTHING Davis says.
Big Mistake 😮
Whoopsie, is what I have to say 😂
Ask any boomer who still hates Toyota - they haven't forgotten this! They'll belligerently explain this is why Toyota ever won a race.
“Daimler” is pronounced “Daym-ler” not “Dime-ler”!! 😮
LOL go to Germany and see how that works for ya.
I'm German. It's pronunced how it's written lol.
I don’t agree with your take on this.
Was what BDR did something most teams did? Did I mischaracterize Bill as a bad guy? I personally don’t think he was a bad guy.
Cot was the death of NASCAR.
that was Brain France's decisions the cot didnt do it
it is cheat and eat
Whut😮
I mean using the engine thats on hand isn’t cheating. Especially when all engines have to be damn near identical to one another
It was easy to put the engine on hand in the truck to do a wind tunnel test, they just needed any engine. Dodge definitely didn’t like it
Chrysler didn't want their product they developed in a competitor's vehicle.
@@SSinister_Grin Its weird that so many people don't get this. Competitors do not want THEIR data or parts being used by another competitor because that's giving away whatever advantage they had to someone else. I guarantee Chevy would've been just as pissed if Joe Gibbs did a similar thing.
@@RACECAR That's the thing, I've heard NASCAR let Toyota look at Ford and GM's blueprints for them to develop their pushrod engine... Just to make it easier to join the sport, NASCAR just saw big $$$ coming in.
Roush can run a plane into the ground…or fly,kinda
Another reason why i hate Theses god damn Cheatin toyotas!
Had better success with the Pontiac than they did with a dodge or Toyota lol.
Yep just waiting for the Formula 1 teams getting into Nascar then they can really start b******* and screaming about who's getting f**** bc those ppl know racing alot better then who's in racing now