For what it’s worth, I’m not a fan of the extra camera angles. It’s not necessarily a terrible thing, but I don’t feel like it adds much at all. Keep up the great work!
Underrated cards. Arboreal Grazer and Elvish Pioneer. Turn one, Forests, tap for one of the mentioned, put another land in tapped, Flare of Cultivation, sac creature to cast for free, search 2 basics, one in tapped and one in hand to guaranteed land drop for turn 2. Now you gave 4 mana available in land, no bolt the bird, no Vandalblast the Sol Ring
Deck thinning is a thing that have to be considered in landfall decks because I guess those are the only ones which are really affected by it. Ramping 5-10 lands out of your deck can really make a difference.
I think one of the less thought about benefits of a Landfall deck is that you get to shuffle a lot. And I know that may sound weird but hear me out. If you want to find a specific card and its all the way at the bottom, you will get more chances to possibly float it to the top. Fetching the lands out might help a bit, but not as much.
I have designed two decks now that consistently play 6 mana cards on turn three and just grow from there. Green is broken, but it does take a lot of building around (and a commander that makes two mana)
Kozilek isn't a great example of "dies to doom blade" because it draws a bunch of cards on cast. The whole "dies to doom blade" meme came out of the idea that your creature need to do *something* immediately--on cast, on ETB, or have haste--to be good. If you think that's "dies to doom blade" is wrong because some creatures like Kozilek are good even when there's removal, you're actually agreeing with the point, not debunking it--the conclusion being playing creature that get you immediate value. I actually feel like you guys make the classic "dies to doom blade" argument a lot. It's the reason you find Sheoldred, Whispering One so underwhelming, and it's the same argument as your making fun of "just wait until I untap" cards.
Retaliatory aggression is pretty good understood in psychology and game design. And yes the main point is that players affected to not play optimal. This doesn't mean they straight up focus their target, but it affects their decisions. Claiming it doesn't exist because it would be irrational or not fun is errrrm pretty bold.
For removal, I think it's also about the number of times you get hit in a game. If everyone plays 3 for 1 (and I do play them a lot) then suddenly you get caught by someone trying to destroy someone else's thing a lot more often and that can create some kind of bad feelings
I hope you make a video for new players on what to expect from commander. When I first played I thought it would be just fun fun but I realized some decks are full of counterspells and removals. It really got me at first because that’s not what I heard. Also i started as a green player so I never understood combo decks but as I played more blue and red decks I realized sometimes certain decks need combos to win
Something that might be cool with the new camera angles would be maybe having more personal affects behind you both. Kinda like how you already have your two little personal shelves behind you on the mid shot
Whenever I see a card that has a scaling payoff (for instance, Liliana's Standard Bearer), I always presume it will likely manage to do whatever it does typically at a rate of 1.5 and judge it based off of that (obviously changing if I think the condition it scales off of is more likely to be a higher number) that usually helps temper my expectations and helps me gauge in a more realistic sense like "Hey, at most I'll probably get like 2 cards from this, is it still worth it?"
Idk man, when you have a deck built around reanimation/mill, they really do cost 1-2 mana. My old stickfingers deck is pretty consistent in presenting constant early threats for almost nothing.
Sheoldred, Whispering One being an underwhelming creature is such a bad take😵💫 Maybe in higher power pods, I guess? But if you want to let the black player get an extra Reanimate every upkeep and force you to sack a creature every turn, then I'm down to sit at your table🤣
Their point is there are cards that actually do more at 7 mana and are a better slot for the deck, if it's turn 5-7 and no one has removal for your pretty vanilla sheoldred then it really is a skill issue on the player parts
I'm making a Miirym deck and I decided to do away with land ramp and just focus on mana dork ramp. But what has happened is that I've had to rely more on creature tutors to get to those dragons to clone .... and maskwood nexus.
I believe I read somewhere that mathematically each scry is worth about half a card draw, but I'm pretty sure that was strictly analyzing one v one sixty card formats
I’m a 60 card player and I even believe deck thinning (like cracking fetch lands for no good reason) is overrated in 60 card Taking one card from even a 60 card deck to a mathematically insignificant
Luckily ive almost never come into the situation of a loop that cannot be broken but i will say for the purposes of the multiplayer Commander format... Its a very braindead rule. If you as a player have gotten yourself stuck into a loop that you cannot get out of, you lose! Even if the next player removed a piece of your setup which is causing you to get stuck in an infinite loop - so sad but you lose and the others are allowed to finish the game like any other normal Commander game before you got yourself into that mess 👍
Idk why you hate on krosen grip so much, multiple cedh players at my lgs have said its the premier way to stop alot of cedh combo pieces, especially things like underworld breach, i do suppose its worse in more casual settings though
I love you guys but MAN do I dislike the cut aways to other camera angles. It doesn't work. Also the camera quality on Mia being different is jarring, at the very least all cameras should be the same and they don't look the same and it's distracting. I know you want to add "production value" and spice it up but the one camera, one angle way you've been doing it is much better and more comfortable to watch. Just my opinion.
18:15 there's some petty ass people who take little bit of damage so seriously at locals, even in my friend pod. they'll just 100% focus you the rest of the game for poking them for 3-4 FREE damage. some people dont care if they lose the game, and will genuinely throw if they feel targeted. i guess i could just NOT play with them but our group is small, beggars cant be choosers
@@RazorDevil1 For me it's when I see "Oh shit, this dude was uncontested early on and he ran away with the game, I need to deal with his high value pieces before he spirals out of control" I agree that it's a petty move to hard focus someone just because they won last game, but it's another matter entirely when you see how their deck runs and you realize what you need to do to counter it so they don't get out of control like the last game. Because it's entirely possible they play pieces you didn't realize had strong synergies with other cards they have in that same deck until you see them in action. But if they're switching decks, then yeah it's mad petty.
3:51 Say Sheoldred was a 2-mana 1/1, would I put this in my deck... maaaaaaybe? What's it good against? If you get it early, it's either not going to take out anything OR it's just going to get the extra 1/1s. And if you get it out late... it's only going to get the extra 1/1s. And if a deck only has a couple/few creatures, then they probably don't particularly care about their creatures in the first place. And if you get it out early, what else is in your graveyard?
Idk, a one sided edict on every upkeep is pretty insane for two mana lol. It basically locks your opponents out from playing less than 2 creatures a turn until they get rid of it. And the second ability is crazy. If you build around self-mill or have tutors that put stuff directly into the grave, that card would be even more busted. It’s not about the stats so much as it is the effect in commander
@@superpower172 How many creatures do you need to reanimate over how many turns to win? Why reanimate Sheoldred when you can just search for and reanimate the creature you actually want? It seems like you're adding a step because value? And if you get it out on turn 2, people may not even have creatures to sacrifice... and by turn 9, they may have 5 or 6 creatures to choose from - "Oh no! I sacrificed my Solemn Simulacrum," or "Oh no! I sacrificed my Llanowar Elves," or "Oh no! I sacrificed my snake token," etc.
Interesting how you both can say that having some staples doesn’t make your deck more powerful, but the entire internet was fighting over Mana Crypt and Jeweled Lotus when they were banned. Half the internet was saying they are not bad and the other half was saying they make your deck too powerful. I wonder what you two think of that?
I think certain categories of cards just make your deck more powerful period. Your deck has to be a complete pile and/or you to be a pretty inexperienced player to not have a significantly better shot at winning any given game with a Mana Crypt in hand. That said, I think the point really is that people just randomly jam certain popular cards in their deck and think "now my win percentage will go up" and A LOT OF THE TIME (not all the time, sure), it just doesn't really do much, because their deck isn't made to make use of that card. Maybe the more nuanced point is that a bad deck only marginally improves with some stapley chase card, while an already great deck can become much better with it. If you're putting Surveil lands into your deck but without fetchlands or outside of green/x decks that can fetch them via farseek, nature's lore, three visits you'll end up with a tapland that you have to naturally draw into, so you only see it like maybe every third game and WHEN you draw into it, you might be bummed out that it enters tapped. Compare that to someone cracking a fetch turn 1 or ramping into it turn 2 with some regularity. -> 1. you actually get to play the card more often. 2. the timing of the land's arrival is different, it comes down early from your ramp vs naturally drawn being a tapland when you REALLY wanted an untapped one. People just hear that card xy is powerful and so they run it, without having much of an idea WHY it's considered powerful or a staple. And sure, a Rhystic Study is often times game winning, but people will also randomly jamming Brainstorm without any shuffle effects. Then there's these pseudo-staples, like Reliquary Tower, which most experienced players will tell you not to run, unless you have a specific reason (and that reason isn't that you might draw 10 cards of a Rishkar's Expertise occasionally and you can't be bothered to discard three lands and couple of ramp spells)
@ Taking the player ability out of the conversation, my point is a card like Mana Crypt doesn’t make your precon more powerful. It is still a 5, it does not become an 8 because of one card. A lot of people think that it does though. I find the opposite with cards like Rhystic Study, Esper Sentinel, and Mystic Remora. I feel they are usually dead cards because unless drawn and deployed early players generally have the mana to pay for them. In the case of Mystic Remora not so much, but deploy a creature or two and it is not an issue. I have seen several of these effects draw zero cards over the course of several turns because they were deployed late game. I actually do not run these cards outside of cEDH, and I do not always include them in my cEDH decks either. There are better options nowadays like Polliwog Prodigy, for example.
@ The inclusion of Mana Crypt objectively and mathematically does increase the power of your deck and would make a precon more powerful than it would be without it.
@ And here we go again. Let’s look at a hypothetical situation. If someone walked into a LGS and grabbed a random pile of white cards. Threw in some basic lands and made a commander deck, would the deck be any good? The answer is no. Now throw in a Mana Crypt, is the deck suddenly good? No it is not.
@@ryantomczak2248 I didn't say it would be good. I said it would be better, which is objectively true no matter how you spin it. Also, your hypothetical is stupid. People aren't building commander decks like that and precons are most definitely NOT designed like that.
I wish you would speak more calmly. You give me a ton of anxiety with how loud and fast you speak, lol. Slow down, young man, and talk like you are having a normal conversation with friends.
Beezy...hiding a grave titan in that "brace" of yours just to secretly put into your hand is breaking the spirit of commander don't you think?
The only things that need to be braced are my opponents for this Grave Titan
For what it’s worth, I’m not a fan of the extra camera angles. It’s not necessarily a terrible thing, but I don’t feel like it adds much at all. Keep up the great work!
I like them personally
Underrated cards. Arboreal Grazer and Elvish Pioneer. Turn one, Forests, tap for one of the mentioned, put another land in tapped, Flare of Cultivation, sac creature to cast for free, search 2 basics, one in tapped and one in hand to guaranteed land drop for turn 2. Now you gave 4 mana available in land, no bolt the bird, no Vandalblast the Sol Ring
Deck thinning is a thing that have to be considered in landfall decks because I guess those are the only ones which are really affected by it. Ramping 5-10 lands out of your deck can really make a difference.
Yes. But it’s a byproduct. Not the goal.
I think one of the less thought about benefits of a Landfall deck is that you get to shuffle a lot. And I know that may sound weird but hear me out. If you want to find a specific card and its all the way at the bottom, you will get more chances to possibly float it to the top. Fetching the lands out might help a bit, but not as much.
or a land tax thinning 3 lands EVERY turn. as long as you didnt go first and at least 1 of your opponets hits land drops or ramps.
I have designed two decks now that consistently play 6 mana cards on turn three and just grow from there. Green is broken, but it does take a lot of building around (and a commander that makes two mana)
Kozilek isn't a great example of "dies to doom blade" because it draws a bunch of cards on cast. The whole "dies to doom blade" meme came out of the idea that your creature need to do *something* immediately--on cast, on ETB, or have haste--to be good. If you think that's "dies to doom blade" is wrong because some creatures like Kozilek are good even when there's removal, you're actually agreeing with the point, not debunking it--the conclusion being playing creature that get you immediate value. I actually feel like you guys make the classic "dies to doom blade" argument a lot. It's the reason you find Sheoldred, Whispering One so underwhelming, and it's the same argument as your making fun of "just wait until I untap" cards.
Retaliatory aggression is pretty good understood in psychology and game design. And yes the main point is that players affected to not play optimal. This doesn't mean they straight up focus their target, but it affects their decisions. Claiming it doesn't exist because it would be irrational or not fun is errrrm pretty bold.
For removal, I think it's also about the number of times you get hit in a game.
If everyone plays 3 for 1 (and I do play them a lot) then suddenly you get caught by someone trying to destroy someone else's thing a lot more often and that can create some kind of bad feelings
Guys you can’t say ‘Gitaxian probe is great! You’re playing one less card!’ And say ‘Deck thinning is not relevant’ at the same time 😂
We like Gitaxian Probe because it’s zero mana to draw a card, trigger minor effects, and gain information. Everything else is bonus!
I hope you make a video for new players on what to expect from commander. When I first played I thought it would be just fun fun but I realized some decks are full of counterspells and removals. It really got me at first because that’s not what I heard. Also i started as a green player so I never understood combo decks but as I played more blue and red decks I realized sometimes certain decks need combos to win
Something that might be cool with the new camera angles would be maybe having more personal affects behind you both. Kinda like how you already have your two little personal shelves behind you on the mid shot
My commander take is all 5 color decks are green decks splashing other colors
My Ezio deck running one forest disagrees
@@sacrednyx626 the exception to the rule 🗿
My Jodah Archmage Eternal deck disagrees. I just have 40 lands and all 10 signets for ramp
Whenever I see a card that has a scaling payoff (for instance, Liliana's Standard Bearer), I always presume it will likely manage to do whatever it does typically at a rate of 1.5 and judge it based off of that (obviously changing if I think the condition it scales off of is more likely to be a higher number) that usually helps temper my expectations and helps me gauge in a more realistic sense like "Hey, at most I'll probably get like 2 cards from this, is it still worth it?"
Idk man, when you have a deck built around reanimation/mill, they really do cost 1-2 mana. My old stickfingers deck is pretty consistent in presenting constant early threats for almost nothing.
Sheoldred, Whispering One being an underwhelming creature is such a bad take😵💫
Maybe in higher power pods, I guess?
But if you want to let the black player get an extra Reanimate every upkeep and force you to sack a creature every turn, then I'm down to sit at your table🤣
Their point is there are cards that actually do more at 7 mana and are a better slot for the deck, if it's turn 5-7 and no one has removal for your pretty vanilla sheoldred then it really is a skill issue on the player parts
Turn one or two she isn’t as good as the others they stated.
I run a Mono Green Kodama/Kamahl and I can tell you that if left unchecked I will absolutely run away with the game by turn 5 8/10 games.
I'm making a Miirym deck and I decided to do away with land ramp and just focus on mana dork ramp. But what has happened is that I've had to rely more on creature tutors to get to those dragons to clone .... and maskwood nexus.
Maybe consider cost reducers. They provide a nice blanket effect and are slightly harder to remove than creatures.
One wrath and you're basically shadow realm'd. LD being taboo is what makes land ramp so good
Beezy slingin spells so hard dude gotta brace the flick of the wrist
much less jarring side angle cuts. it will settle into place just be yourselves! good seeing the channel grow in subtle ways
Scrying to the bottom is the same as drawing a card. This is a hill I will die on.
True tbh, it's a weaker effect but binning a card you don't want for an unknown is always good in every game
I believe I read somewhere that mathematically each scry is worth about half a card draw, but I'm pretty sure that was strictly analyzing one v one sixty card formats
Its not though. Its good sure but it doesnt add anything to your hand. It simply assures a single card you dont want won't go into your hand
Just play real threats to bait removal. I'd rather have two cards that can win me the game than one winner and one decoy.
I've won so many games wiht windfall cast by someone else
I’m a 60 card player and I even believe deck thinning (like cracking fetch lands for no good reason) is overrated in 60 card
Taking one card from even a 60 card deck to a mathematically insignificant
'Bait removal' is a brave position when the easiest removal in Commander, of true lightning rods, is player removal....
I have legitimately baited out counterspells though.
Wow. I love the nitpicking nerds.
Didn't they change the rule with clones and flip cards? Like the clone now gets the backside of the card if that card transforms
Beezy I know you had an octavia deck at one point. Should windfall go in my octavia deck?
Luckily ive almost never come into the situation of a loop that cannot be broken but i will say for the purposes of the multiplayer Commander format... Its a very braindead rule.
If you as a player have gotten yourself stuck into a loop that you cannot get out of, you lose!
Even if the next player removed a piece of your setup which is causing you to get stuck in an infinite loop - so sad but you lose and the others are allowed to finish the game like any other normal Commander game before you got yourself into that mess 👍
If you want to play a lightning rod, just play spellskite or some other protection piece lmao
I only play Sheoldred in my Sefris Phyrexian reanimator deck, and shes the most unserwhelming of my tagets, shes just there cause i have her...
Beezy wearing a brace cuz he tried to bust Grave Titan... and GT fought back 🤔?!
Lol, for real, hope you're okay, hope to catch you two in Chicago!
Idk why you hate on krosen grip so much, multiple cedh players at my lgs have said its the premier way to stop alot of cedh combo pieces, especially things like underworld breach, i do suppose its worse in more casual settings though
I love you guys but MAN do I dislike the cut aways to other camera angles. It doesn't work. Also the camera quality on Mia being different is jarring, at the very least all cameras should be the same and they don't look the same and it's distracting. I know you want to add "production value" and spice it up but the one camera, one angle way you've been doing it is much better and more comfortable to watch. Just my opinion.
18:15 there's some petty ass people who take little bit of damage so seriously at locals, even in my friend pod. they'll just 100% focus you the rest of the game for poking them for 3-4 FREE damage.
some people dont care if they lose the game, and will genuinely throw if they feel targeted. i guess i could just NOT play with them but our group is small, beggars cant be choosers
another big one is "you won last game so im focusing you this game". that kind of mentality is so annoying but people DO these a lot.
@@RazorDevil1 For me it's when I see "Oh shit, this dude was uncontested early on and he ran away with the game, I need to deal with his high value pieces before he spirals out of control"
I agree that it's a petty move to hard focus someone just because they won last game, but it's another matter entirely when you see how their deck runs and you realize what you need to do to counter it so they don't get out of control like the last game. Because it's entirely possible they play pieces you didn't realize had strong synergies with other cards they have in that same deck until you see them in action.
But if they're switching decks, then yeah it's mad petty.
Land tax is one of the only good deck thining cards...
"Your mouth is writing a check that your deck can't cash." 😅😂 This made me laugh because it's so true
Going infinite only makes you lose the game on Magic Arena because it crashes 😂
Beezy hurt his wrist shuffling too much??
What's happening with the wrist beezy? Hope all is well!
Heck yeah.
Do you think Obama plays
XD no
With people's lives? Yes. Taking bribes to buy his next mansion? Yes.
He plays in a 4 pod with biden, trump, and Bill Clinton every Tuesday afternoon
@@prestonmitchell9135 Probably not that fun with Trump winning all the time.
Trump definitely azorius control lmao
3:51 Say Sheoldred was a 2-mana 1/1, would I put this in my deck... maaaaaaybe? What's it good against? If you get it early, it's either not going to take out anything OR it's just going to get the extra 1/1s. And if you get it out late... it's only going to get the extra 1/1s. And if a deck only has a couple/few creatures, then they probably don't particularly care about their creatures in the first place. And if you get it out early, what else is in your graveyard?
Idk, a one sided edict on every upkeep is pretty insane for two mana lol. It basically locks your opponents out from playing less than 2 creatures a turn until they get rid of it. And the second ability is crazy. If you build around self-mill or have tutors that put stuff directly into the grave, that card would be even more busted. It’s not about the stats so much as it is the effect in commander
@@superpower172 How many creatures do you need to reanimate over how many turns to win? Why reanimate Sheoldred when you can just search for and reanimate the creature you actually want? It seems like you're adding a step because value? And if you get it out on turn 2, people may not even have creatures to sacrifice... and by turn 9, they may have 5 or 6 creatures to choose from - "Oh no! I sacrificed my Solemn Simulacrum," or "Oh no! I sacrificed my Llanowar Elves," or "Oh no! I sacrificed my snake token," etc.
If people are legitimately making some of these arguments them the nitpicking needs community may be bad at magic. Lol.
Interesting how you both can say that having some staples doesn’t make your deck more powerful, but the entire internet was fighting over Mana Crypt and Jeweled Lotus when they were banned. Half the internet was saying they are not bad and the other half was saying they make your deck too powerful. I wonder what you two think of that?
I think certain categories of cards just make your deck more powerful period. Your deck has to be a complete pile and/or you to be a pretty inexperienced player to not have a significantly better shot at winning any given game with a Mana Crypt in hand.
That said, I think the point really is that people just randomly jam certain popular cards in their deck and think "now my win percentage will go up" and A LOT OF THE TIME (not all the time, sure), it just doesn't really do much, because their deck isn't made to make use of that card.
Maybe the more nuanced point is that a bad deck only marginally improves with some stapley chase card, while an already great deck can become much better with it. If you're putting Surveil lands into your deck but without fetchlands or outside of green/x decks that can fetch them via farseek, nature's lore, three visits you'll end up with a tapland that you have to naturally draw into, so you only see it like maybe every third game and WHEN you draw into it, you might be bummed out that it enters tapped. Compare that to someone cracking a fetch turn 1 or ramping into it turn 2 with some regularity. -> 1. you actually get to play the card more often. 2. the timing of the land's arrival is different, it comes down early from your ramp vs naturally drawn being a tapland when you REALLY wanted an untapped one.
People just hear that card xy is powerful and so they run it, without having much of an idea WHY it's considered powerful or a staple. And sure, a Rhystic Study is often times game winning, but people will also randomly jamming Brainstorm without any shuffle effects. Then there's these pseudo-staples, like Reliquary Tower, which most experienced players will tell you not to run, unless you have a specific reason (and that reason isn't that you might draw 10 cards of a Rishkar's Expertise occasionally and you can't be bothered to discard three lands and couple of ramp spells)
@ Taking the player ability out of the conversation, my point is a card like Mana Crypt doesn’t make your precon more powerful. It is still a 5, it does not become an 8 because of one card. A lot of people think that it does though.
I find the opposite with cards like Rhystic Study, Esper Sentinel, and Mystic Remora. I feel they are usually dead cards because unless drawn and deployed early players generally have the mana to pay for them. In the case of Mystic Remora not so much, but deploy a creature or two and it is not an issue. I have seen several of these effects draw zero cards over the course of several turns because they were deployed late game. I actually do not run these cards outside of cEDH, and I do not always include them in my cEDH decks either. There are better options nowadays like Polliwog Prodigy, for example.
@ The inclusion of Mana Crypt objectively and mathematically does increase the power of your deck and would make a precon more powerful than it would be without it.
@ And here we go again.
Let’s look at a hypothetical situation. If someone walked into a LGS and grabbed a random pile of white cards. Threw in some basic lands and made a commander deck, would the deck be any good? The answer is no. Now throw in a Mana Crypt, is the deck suddenly good? No it is not.
@@ryantomczak2248 I didn't say it would be good. I said it would be better, which is objectively true no matter how you spin it.
Also, your hypothetical is stupid. People aren't building commander decks like that and precons are most definitely NOT designed like that.
First?
🥇
I wish you would speak more calmly. You give me a ton of anxiety with how loud and fast you speak, lol. Slow down, young man, and talk like you are having a normal conversation with friends.
Welcome to talking to energetic people and/or people with adhd
I watch them on 2x speed and think it’s fine
There's a volume control on your device
scram geezer
@@bennett4789 🤣🤣🤣