I have commented about quite a few similar suggestions so I think I'll leave this post here in case your great mind is thinking alike! 1) Golf Ball Dimples / Shark-Skin or otherwise textured coatings for reduction of air drag: Golf balls work by increasing viscous drag but decreasing pressure drag by more (put very simply here, many good vids out there). Since my tops don't experience pressure drag, adding texture would only increase viscous drag. So far, I've found that a perfectly polished surface is best, however it is certainly an area for innovation so do leave other ideas! 2) Ruby/Sapphire jewel tips/bases: Tungsten carbide, like I use, is harder! And easier to get in a spiked form which benefits more from lubrication. 3) Polycrystaline Diamond/Cubic Boron Nitride tips/bases: These are harder, but very abrasive. If only used for the tip, it would cause drilling. If only used for the base, it would rapidly blunten the tip. If used for both ... I'll admit I haven't tried yet but I suspect both would occur. 4) Uranium/Osmium/Platinum etc flywheel: (Apart from uranium) I would LOVE this, however I am not a millionaire so this is completely out of my price range. Pure tungsten would be the densest viable option (almost 20g/cm^3) however I have struggled to machine it in the past. Hence, Mk.22 used a 90-10 alloy (16.75 g/cm^3) which is softer.
@EuroWarsOrg I actually put something similar on for the full spin video! I just took it off the top in this video to make it more pretty but I am looking into aerodynamic ways of making the spin more visible :)
@@jjb0nks It should spin on some kind of point, either conical, spherical etc. A bearing like that would stop the top from being able to topple, hence it is no longer a spinning top.
@@hiper_tops Does the base have to be static? The base could be another spinning element (with a means to retract when it loses momentum, a centrifugal clutch mechanism or something). That way tip friction could be reduced. The base element could have a shell around the top's doughnut (to shield it from drag). The thinking is to have something like multistage rocket, but with like mechanical parts acting as boundary layer separators to reduce the delta V to the surroundings.
This might be a dumb idea that you've already tried but old mechanical watches used ruby jewels to minimise friction and wear, that might help drop the tip friction lower if you want to progress further? IDK, you're the engineer! Such a cool series, thankyou!
@@phiro4305 The contact point is definitely an area for innovation. I (and others) have found that hardness certainly isn't the only factor - cubic boron nitride and polycrystalline diamond for example are highly abrasive. A carbide spiked tip spinning on either can become blunt over the course of a single spin, causing imbalance, more friction and worse performance. If we swapped the base and tip materials, now the spinning top would drill into the base, get stuck in the hole causing vibrations and losses. Also, yes, coeficient of friction when dry (for ball tips) or oiled (for spike/micro-ball tips) is important! The typical solution is to use materials of similar, high hardness for the tip and base. HSS on WCarbide is good for longevity but for a single spin, WCarbide on WCarbide is the best. Interestingly, perhaps due to Mk.22's incredible spin time, I have found that over a single spin WCarbide on WCarbide can cause drilling and vibrations - you will see this in the full spin video. In my testing it has seemed quite consistent that after about 45-50 minutes, some vibrations occur (not due to imbalance but getting stuck in a hole as described above). If you have any suggestions, do give them (regardless of if you are an engineer or not! I am still a student) :) @xzorby for example suggested a DLC coating on the tip which I am now looking into!
I don’t have any suggestions for the top itself but I’d love to see a video delving more into the maths and theory behind your designs. It seems like you did a lot of it to get your formulas for an optimal setup and is honestly the most impressive thing to me from this whole video
Hi I was initially going to have quite a bit more info like this in this video, however when editing, I realised the video would probably suffer (people would click off!). This is because I'm not familiar with editing maths and physics into something enjoyable to watch - however I will try and take inspiration from other youtubers and add more info next time, perhaps a separate video as there is so much.
@@hiper_topsI get what you mean. This is the first video of yours I watched but I’ve since gone back to look at your earlier vids and liked them too because of your style. A separate theory video would be good to have especially for someone like me because as soon as I saw this I wanted to know the thinking behind it and how I could maybe attempt the challenge as well (maybe you don’t want to share your record setting secrets though that’d be understandable).
@@H4PPYx337 Thanks for watching them! I would gladly share the thinking that goes into my tops, but perhaps not the specific formula(s) I have used .. yet! The most challenging part is modelling the air drag as a heads up :)
High performance, seeing this channel for the first time, no bs just straight graphs, beautiful machining and spinning shots and lovely music. Instant sub
I don’t know whether I am more impressed with the math and science of this, or the art. This is some high-performance work right here. Seriously, love this to bits.
why are there so many comments saying "High Performance! xxxx"? it looks really suspect, like hes paying for views or offering "prizes" to people for commenting, i.e. buying views.
@@hiper_tops ahh that clears it up. thanks for making that clear, i was a bit sketched off from the comments. i have removed my dislike though, seeing as there is no shady shit going on.
Amazing! I imagine getting a top to spin this long teaches you things that are SUPER transferrable to modern engineering. Like, every problem you had to solve probably also exists in electric motors, car engines, etc
Okay! haha :) The thing is this product would be quite expensive (very small supply, a lot of skilled manual labour and rare materials) and I want to deliver something amazing! There's a lot of work to do ... but of course I will keep everyone updated😄
You can always offer the poor man's 10 min top :) But, I want one spinning in my office for 30minutes at a time so I can pomodoro between spins @@hiper_tops
A spectacular feat of precision engineering for a self taught teenager. It looks simply beautiful. You have navigated the complexities of physics and mathematics very well. Congratulations HiPer Tops.
Hey thanks for the interest :) I am currently trademarking my brand etc and working towards producing a small number of tops similar to Mk.22! I don't have an ETA right now, especially because I have a lot of uni work to do XD However my goal is to have something(s) to auction off over summer. In the future, I aspire to manufacture smaller, simpler, perhaps single-twirl versions which may be easier to manufacture and sell at scale :) I'll post any updates on this channel and my instagram: hiper_spinning_tops
All good points, regarding the wideness, I believe 70mm is optimal for multi twirl tops like these as any more and air drag would be too much and any less and tip drag would be too much. I am looking into base and tip materials!
High performance! For aerodynamics it would be really cool to see smoke stream testing on this. I think the geometry of the base may actually be pretty significant. For the top itself, maybe a blade around the center of the top better direct the top and bottom air flows as they come together? On the friction side of things it may be worth going back to a dual material or hollow design. It would complicate your analysis there, but it may be worth it to bring mass down without affecting inertia too much
Does the tip you grab to spin it increase air drag due to its roughness? And if so, have you considered polishing it like the rest of the top to achieve even less drag, and perhaps spinning it up with some other device that could still grip the smooth surface, like some sort of custom rubber drill bit or gripping device? I'm totally new to this hobby and have zero engineering background, so I'm sure this is a super obvious question. But just was curious!
It is good thinking! Thankfully, I can afford to knurl the stem because since the radius is relatively small here compared to the flywheel, the drag it experiences is negligible. Theoretically making it smaller/polished would help but I really don't think it would make any noticeable difference! Stay curious :)
Not currently, it is wide and heavy for stability and shaped mainly for aesthetics. Lift is something I've explored in some other comments of this video and we conclude it is likely not a feasible method for improvement. It would create too much drag for too little decrease in tip friction.
This is amazing! To me this is the ultimate in the "unlimited" class of tops, essentially doing anything you want with the geometry. However, I feel a little bit of the essence of the classic top is lost by allowing a recessed tip and elevated stand--as that essentially removes the part that makes most tops fall over: the precession from CG being above the tip, and the effect of the sides of the top contacting the ground if your spin technique isn't perfect. Therefore as a follow on I think it would be cool to see your optimization of the design under a "legacy" class where it has to run on a flat surface (no recessed tip, or cupped holder). I wonder how the design would change.. because you still would want to get the CG as low as possible, but if too low, the sides would contact the ground too easily. So it's a different optimization. Anyway, as an engineer this is where my mind goes. Good work.
This is a good idea, I would love to develop a top optimised for single spin, spinning on a flat surface etc. I should be able to use a lot of the formulas etc I've found so far, but it would be an interesting new set of design challenges!
What an amazing video. What tops it for me is seeing you build it in your shop. I can only imagine the stress of making the pieces with such nice materials. Truly high performance!
Thank you! Yes some of it was made on a lathe at my university as it cuts harder materials like tungsten better. However most was done on my mini-lathe in my bedroom!
It's a cool idea but unfortunately not! Golf ball dimples help by increasing viscous (skin friction) drag but decreasing pressure drag (by more!). Since spinning tops don't experience pressure drag and only viscous drag, dimples would be counter productive. You may find this video interesting: ua-cam.com/video/g_LTJTaOxCs/v-deo.html&ab_channel=BilletSPIN Note the best top has internal dimples, however the change in airflow in this region is unlikely to be the helping factor; but rather light-weighting to reduce tip friction.
I have never had the thought to create a world class spinning top. But, I sure appreciate the dedication and precision you have shown toward your craft. Congratulations on your achievement!
@@tebla2074 Good point. I'm curious how much it would affect the time. It would quantify roughly how much drag there is compared to friction. Could give insight onto further improvements.
@@rebeccarivers4797 You are right, this data would be very useful. And @tebla2074 is right about how it can be achieved. I just need to get access to a suitable vacuum chamber, however I suspect making one myself may be easier as what I'm looking for is quite an unusual shape. I'll see what I can do!
High-Performance! Love this - I'd definitely buy one of these, so I'm looking forward to when they are ready for sale. Edit: scratch the below, I'm not the first person to ask this! Also, I have question: I'm curious, would a dimpled pattern, akin to a golf ball, make for a more efficient grip? In the case of the golf ball, this helps to keep the flow of air more tightly bound to the ball, so there's a smaller pocket of low pressure behind it, but in the case of a rotating object, I don't know if the dimples would be of any use, or if it would make drag worse due to the turbulence. I suppose you may have already considered this, given the number of iterations. I'm interested to hear your thoughts on it.
I meant instead of using deep knurling, I only slightly textured the surface which in comparison causes a bit less drag :) But yes knurling in general slightly increases air drag
James, I think I saw an old video of your some years ago but happened across this one today. Unbelieveable! Truly a High-performance spinning top. A few points / questions: 1) Please fix your CAD! I saw you had made it in a public Onshape document so I had a look, and you're making life so difficult for youself. a. Model the whole top in a single part studio! There's no need to create a seperate document for every part. Think of documents as binders which hold everything related to something. They can have parts, assemblies, drawings, etc inside. It will make your life so much easier modifying the design and keeping interfaces working between parts. b. Some of your parts aren't fully defined (blue vs black sketch segments) which may cause you headaches down the line if you accidentally adjust something and attempt to make it again. c. Your assembly is floating in space, and has no relation to the origin. Move the point of the tip to the origin, and then aling everything about the Z axis. Then when you measure CoG of the assembly its coordinates will be in relation to the point of the tip. d. I couldn't help myself and re-modelled the Mk.23 shown in the video. If you go to Onshape > Public Documents and search for "James Goh - MK.23 Clean" You should find it. 2) I noticed in your CAD that the brass appears to be an interference fit, if so, how do you ensure that it bottoms out or at least gets extremely close, as if it doesn't bottom out correctly you'll raise the CoG up inadvertently. 3) As others have said, I would watch the hell out of a multi-part, multi-hour detailing of the math and design you've put into the iterations. It's truly remarkable.
Thank you for these notes! My CAD skills definitely need work haha - I'm more used to solid works but working on a mac at the moment. I found your document - thank you! Regarding 2), I believe that may be an error as the tapered tip holder uses a friction fit. And for 3) I am working on something along these lines but it may take a while as I am back at uni now.
High-Performance! Congrats on hitting 1 hour, if you haven't already, you should see if you can get an official world record with Guinness. I'm not sure how that works personally, but if it interests you, then I'm sure you can figure it out. Good luck with that, and/or with your future tops.
@@prdoyle Yes a Hand done no machine run top should have own category as the 27 hour top has one of the magnet flywheel engines inside so machine can go for a very long time. Also, a big spinning item that uses earth rotation and is still spinning was once considered a top before Guinness World Records changed it into a time category.
Yes, CG must be higher than the tip however by how much is not specified. In practice, it is near impossible to get critical speed lower than 20rpm before the top no-longer topples - at which point it is considered -ve CG.
Would a graphite spinning surface reduce friction? Powdered graphite is a good dry lubricant. Could help reduce friction if the tip didn’t machine it away too quickly
True, regarding graphite's lubricating abilities, however as you suspected it is far too soft given the weight of my tops - the pressure at the tip is almost 400MPa! A hole would instantly be drilled and enlarged until a large area of contact removed any gains from lubrication.
What a beautiful piece of art you have created and such high-performance to boot!! I and my autistic grandson would love to have something like this in our collection. Thank you for sharing your passion with us all!! 😎💜
Just found out about this channel, it's a super cool engineering effort! One thing I'd like to add: I don't like fragile + specific machines, particularly it needing a specific base and hand cranked multiple times. If you can optimize a version for the average desk surface + one finger-length of spin, would be awesome! and also fruitful for you if you decide to commercialize it. Also, personal preference: Using a hard rock as a material would be such a statement of "This is just a rock, but we engineered the hell out of it!"
So this is the only video I’ve seen of this series so I have not learned all that you have in this process and I do not know what rules you have for yourself or what the hp-top community has, but the first things that come to mind without changing the top/base itself is just changes to the overall system: eliminating drag altogether via vacuum, and; changing the temperature of the system (i hypothesize decreasing the Temperature of the top and the base would work best). As for the top itself, (again I’ve not experimented and learned for 7 years like you have), there’s a new material in the making - carbon nitride - and I think it boasts some decent potential as a tip/base material, should be between cubic boron nitride and diamond in hardness, some say it surpasses diamond in some areas, I think compressive strength. idk it’s lattice structure tho I think there’s a handful they’re trying. It’ll probably be an expensive material to experiment with but maybe in junction with a diamond tip/base or a a cubic BN tip/base it’ll fair well. I also don’t know your lubrication methods/results but a low viscosity lubricant may fair well, but it’ll have some form of drag on the system, but by making a thinner tip for the spinner you may be able to reduce frictional drag from the lubricant, but that’s probably diminishing returns. I can imagine there’s some effect that can be taken advantage of my mind kinda goes to magnetism or superconductors but I feel like those would be somewhat cheating/violating the “rules.” Maybe somewhere in the universe there’s a non-Newtonian lubricant with the ideal properties for a lubricant. The only other suggestions I could make design wise would be along the lines of reducing surface area near the center of the spinning area (the big flat disc shaped area) to be 2+ aerodynamic rods connecting the tip and handle to the outer ring. There’s a handful of other experimentals id do but I’m about to pass out and I’m partially regretting going to college for business seeing as I love this stuff so much.
What a cool idea to try to optimize a spinning top. A one hour spin is insane! Would it help reduce drag if it didn't want to fall over? Putting the rotating point above the center of gravity so it'll balance even when standing still? Or would it not count as a top anymore then?
I currently use an oil lubricant however if you have any tribological suggestions I’m all ears :) something good under extreme pressure, low viscosity and friction!
@@hiper_tops Hmm, I don't know how well it works under extreme pressure but I used a personal lubricant on the slide action of a miter saw and it smoothed up really well. It might sound like a joke but the Turned On brand on Amazon is a good place to start, that's what I used. The ingredients are Dimethicone, Cyclopentasiloxane, Dimethiconol, Phenyl Trimethicone. It's light weight and low viscosity. What oil do you currently use?
@@hiper_tops Hey there, just wanted to check in if you were able to try other lubricants. I was thinking perhaps using multiple types of lubricants may help too. For example, you can clean then apply a viscus lubricant onto the stand. Then wipe it clean and buff it to leave a super, super thin coating, then apply a thin lubricant that doesn't mix with the thicker one. The idea is to have multiple layers to add lubricity. Another idea is perhaps to apply a teflon coating, buff, then your thin lubricant on top of that. I think you can buy teflon spray, but I really don't like the forever chemicals... Just some thoughts to mull over.
so this is what it does when you spin it by hand, how long will it go if you really send it with a dremel or starting with a string and a high performance bearing to hold the top steady?
Not quite sure what the rules are, but would a lowfriction bearing between the tip and the body be beneficial? It would reduce the tip speed for lower friction, but would also add another point of friction. If the relation between rotational speed and friction is squared it should be beneficial. Right?
Just fascinating! I have had a desire to make a long spin top for so long, yet I didn’t know of your channel. perhaps when my workshop is finished I can make something that will spin for 10min! It’s funny about your pinned comment. My first thought was golf ball dimples then micro dimples (but seeing your comment these woukd be useless!) and then finally uranium! I’ve actually wanted some for so long. I have searched how to buy uranium so many times I’m probably on a watchlist, apparently older aircraft counterweights used to be uranium.
This may have been suggested ... a magnetic bearing is feasible and would greatly decrease the frictional loss. In this method there is no physical contact between the rotor and base.
High Performance is an understatement, now im wondering if something like this could be incorporated into a vertical wind generator or motor. Incredible
A suggestion: You can add some permanent magnet to counteract weight. You cannot do levitation with magnets but you can lower force on the pointy tip and therefore lower friction. But rotating metal next to a magnet will lose energy thanks to eddy currents, so you will need to use something nonconductive.
@@neptarclepuffin Usually this rotates only several minutes. I guess because of eddy currents so you need to use ferrites. I think partial weight compensation will work better cause levitating may lose stability at low speed, dissipate energy via vibration, etc (and it looks kinda like cheating).
Is using a lubricant allowed? For example a crankshaft bearing (which sometime don’t even use a bearing at all…just engine oil) they survice a countless violent rotation when the car moving around
To further refine and optimize your equation, do tests under vacuum to isolate the component of friction and get empirical data to inform your simulation This might be a lot to implement, but you could also do the inverse by building an assembly using magnetic bearings to isolate the air drag. If that finds its way into the final product, you could be in the 3+ hr range
Congratulations. It’s been so fun to watch your tops improve with each video. I don’t know how many hundreds of dollars this would cost to produce a small run, but I would back the hell out of that Kickstarter
Thank you :) To be transparent, if I were to make 10 or so Mk.22-like tops (something I am thinking about), they would be at least 600 USD each. Aside from the large material cost - especially the flywheel - it takes many hours of skilled labour on my part to get them to as high a standard as this. It's an economic puzzle! However I am very aware of the large demand and want to produce something so stay tuned😄
Would it make any sense to reduce tip friction by adding features that produce some amount of aerodynamic lift? Or would the corresponding drag be too much?
This is an interesting idea which I have not considered before. I have a strong instinct that the increase in air drag would be disproportionate to the gains in reduced tip drag - this is particularly because for the top to have any significant lift, it would have to be spinning incredibly fast and spinning fast = lots of air losses! It would quickly slow to the point where little-no lift is gained. ua-cam.com/video/KCt0byMMrDI/v-deo.html&ab_channel=kevinmartin You may find this video interesting, however note in this case the features create a boosting torque when blown on as opposed to a lifting force.
I think it would be difficult because the amount of lift is proportional to the rotation speed, the top constantly changes speed so it would be difficult to optimize for an amount of lift that is beneficial yet doesn't result in the top simply floating off the platform
The thing that got me the most was how gently the top slowed down to its final rotation. It kept seeming like it was going to stop at any moment, but somehow its *Performance* continued. Also, forgive the tangent, but this was the first time I've seen 999 thumbs up on a video, allowing me to be the 1,000th. Maybe not a *High* point in my digital existence, but kinda cool.
I havent watched many of your videos so this might have been tried at some point but have you considered an air bearing? You could make the bottom of the top a ball bearing. Set it in a presicion machined matching base and blow air up through the base to reduce the material friction
Mirror finish is the best option. I am researching advanced techniques like riblets but something as simple as dimples or roughening the surface would be detrimental.
Damn... this is such a good channel, the subject is interesting the vibes are perfect and the high performance passion make it so good... Continue like that :D
Initially, it toppled at 60 RPM, however after further manual balancing, I reduced this all the way to 30RPM! I'll release the full spin soonish and you will see in that just how slow that is. This reduction in critical speed alone added 3 minutes
I have nothing to do with spinning tops other than this random video which was recommended, but after visiting the record page and seeing the previous record holder, I have to say I was slightly more impressed with Iacopo Simonelli's run. The single twist start and the trueness of his top throughout, at least until 40mins of 51 was a touch more mesmerising to me. You're top seemed to start going through various wobble phases from 35mins on, maybe tip wear? None the less hats off for the determination and thanks for the interesting entertainment👍
I agree Iacopo’s tops are incredible! They have been an inspiration since the start. I aspire to achieve the seemingly perfect balance his tops have. Regarding the single spin, this really ought to be a separate category (and I think he would hold the record)
Thank you, @antichicmusic. I don't think it's tip wear. Tungsten alloys have disomogeneous density so tops made with these materials are almost always less or more badly unbalanced, there can be also couple unbalance, not only static unbalance, so it takes some patience and knowledge to balance them perfectly.
How about coating with nickel boron? I have bolt carrier groups for some of my rifles coated with NiB and they cycle longer and smoother with less friction.
Some thinking out loud. The bottom of the spinning top expels air outwards, creating a slight low pressure zone underneath, and therefore a slight downforce onto the tip. Would there be a way to change the geometry of the base such that you create a slightly higher pressure zone instead, decreasing the tip force?
May I recommend this video: ua-cam.com/video/-wggqn9sgiI/v-deo.html&ab_channel=IacopoSimonelli As you can see, and I have found with my tops, spinning tops act as centrifugal pumps, expelling air radially in a disk at the maximum radius of the flywheel. Even if I could deflect the air such as to create a high pressure under the top, I suspect this effect would be negligible in comparison to the weight of the top. Exploring using the ground effect or air bearing tech would be interesting, and I believe it would help, however it feels like cheating. For the effect to be useful, the top and the ground would have to be so close that the top can no longer 'topple' - and hence is not a spinning top. Still, aero is definitely a possible area for improvement!
@@hiper_tops In airplanes, the ground effect works up to a height of about half the wingspan. I can see how a spiral groove bearing would feel like cheating (despite being technically contactless) but do you really need the surfaces to be that close for it to be an improvement?
@@xzorby Actually I'm not sure I would call what I'm imagining the ground effect - since there's no lateral airflow to be compressed here, I was thinking air would have to be sucked in and expelled downwards. Aside from the large drag this would cause, to have a 1% decrease in the weight of the top, assuming a down-flow of air half the ground area of the top could be achieved, 14.5km/hr winds would have to be generated. This is just some back-of-the-envelope maths but is very generous and I think shows how difficult it would be to decrease tip friction by deflecting the airflow.
@@hiper_tops Ah so like a helicopter? Helicopters do benefit from ground effect so you might need a little less airspeed than what you calculated, but still I don't think the decrease in tip drag would ever outweigh the increase in aerodynamic drag. I meant leaving the top smooth and closed as is, and just reshaping the base to redirect the airflow it already creates. As you said, the top functions a bit like a centrifugal pump, or perhaps a free spinning centrifugal pump rotor. My suggestion is to give the rotor a partial housing perhaps with grooves, redirecting the radially expelled air axially to underneath the top, thereby increasing the pressure below. I guess that would have little to do with ground effect. The top would sit in a "bowl" with grooves, or "half shroud", so again it might feel like cheating. Also I don't know how much benefit it would be.
@@xzorby I see! Iacopo simonelli has used near-full shrouds around the flywheel portions of his tops and found a benefit of about 5% for spin times. However he attributed this to the reduced velocity gradient, since the shroud keeps circulating air around the top. I believe it would be possible, though a little complicated, to redirect the existing air flow downwards. However, still not nearly enough air is being moved to help.
I have commented about quite a few similar suggestions so I think I'll leave this post here in case your great mind is thinking alike!
1) Golf Ball Dimples / Shark-Skin or otherwise textured coatings for reduction of air drag:
Golf balls work by increasing viscous drag but decreasing pressure drag by more (put very simply here, many good vids out there). Since my tops don't experience pressure drag, adding texture would only increase viscous drag. So far, I've found that a perfectly polished surface is best, however it is certainly an area for innovation so do leave other ideas!
2) Ruby/Sapphire jewel tips/bases:
Tungsten carbide, like I use, is harder! And easier to get in a spiked form which benefits more from lubrication.
3) Polycrystaline Diamond/Cubic Boron Nitride tips/bases:
These are harder, but very abrasive. If only used for the tip, it would cause drilling. If only used for the base, it would rapidly blunten the tip. If used for both ... I'll admit I haven't tried yet but I suspect both would occur.
4) Uranium/Osmium/Platinum etc flywheel:
(Apart from uranium) I would LOVE this, however I am not a millionaire so this is completely out of my price range. Pure tungsten would be the densest viable option (almost 20g/cm^3) however I have struggled to machine it in the past. Hence, Mk.22 used a 90-10 alloy (16.75 g/cm^3) which is softer.
@EuroWarsOrg I actually put something similar on for the full spin video! I just took it off the top in this video to make it more pretty but I am looking into aerodynamic ways of making the spin more visible :)
that cog being half a cunt hair above the contact point.. well played sir.
What about hydrodynamic bearings? Or does a top have to spin on a point?
@@jjb0nks It should spin on some kind of point, either conical, spherical etc. A bearing like that would stop the top from being able to topple, hence it is no longer a spinning top.
@@hiper_tops Does the base have to be static? The base could be another spinning element (with a means to retract when it loses momentum, a centrifugal clutch mechanism or something). That way tip friction could be reduced. The base element could have a shell around the top's doughnut (to shield it from drag). The thinking is to have something like multistage rocket, but with like mechanical parts acting as boundary layer separators to reduce the delta V to the surroundings.
This might be a dumb idea that you've already tried but old mechanical watches used ruby jewels to minimise friction and wear, that might help drop the tip friction lower if you want to progress further? IDK, you're the engineer! Such a cool series, thankyou!
Diamond has an even lower coefficient of friction!
Has already been tried, the previous iteration used a changable ball bearing as the tip, and one material mentioned was ruby
Modern mechanical watches use ruby berrings as well.
@@DisorderedArraycan confirm polycrystalline diamond is the way to go
@@phiro4305 The contact point is definitely an area for innovation. I (and others) have found that hardness certainly isn't the only factor - cubic boron nitride and polycrystalline diamond for example are highly abrasive. A carbide spiked tip spinning on either can become blunt over the course of a single spin, causing imbalance, more friction and worse performance. If we swapped the base and tip materials, now the spinning top would drill into the base, get stuck in the hole causing vibrations and losses. Also, yes, coeficient of friction when dry (for ball tips) or oiled (for spike/micro-ball tips) is important!
The typical solution is to use materials of similar, high hardness for the tip and base. HSS on WCarbide is good for longevity but for a single spin, WCarbide on WCarbide is the best. Interestingly, perhaps due to Mk.22's incredible spin time, I have found that over a single spin WCarbide on WCarbide can cause drilling and vibrations - you will see this in the full spin video. In my testing it has seemed quite consistent that after about 45-50 minutes, some vibrations occur (not due to imbalance but getting stuck in a hole as described above).
If you have any suggestions, do give them (regardless of if you are an engineer or not! I am still a student) :) @xzorby for example suggested a DLC coating on the tip which I am now looking into!
I don’t have any suggestions for the top itself but I’d love to see a video delving more into the maths and theory behind your designs. It seems like you did a lot of it to get your formulas for an optimal setup and is honestly the most impressive thing to me from this whole video
Hi I was initially going to have quite a bit more info like this in this video, however when editing, I realised the video would probably suffer (people would click off!). This is because I'm not familiar with editing maths and physics into something enjoyable to watch - however I will try and take inspiration from other youtubers and add more info next time, perhaps a separate video as there is so much.
@@hiper_topsI get what you mean. This is the first video of yours I watched but I’ve since gone back to look at your earlier vids and liked them too because of your style. A separate theory video would be good to have especially for someone like me because as soon as I saw this I wanted to know the thinking behind it and how I could maybe attempt the challenge as well (maybe you don’t want to share your record setting secrets though that’d be understandable).
@@hiper_tops a separate video would be great! and you can take inspiration from kurzgesagt, AlphaPhoenix, minute physics, etc!
@@H4PPYx337 Thanks for watching them! I would gladly share the thinking that goes into my tops, but perhaps not the specific formula(s) I have used .. yet! The most challenging part is modelling the air drag as a heads up :)
@@hiper_tops Please do this. As an engineering student I eat that shit up. AND would love to have a far more in depth look through!
Just found this High-performance project. The stability at slow speeds is insane. Well done!
Thank you very much!
That’s pretty sweet! Would it mess with the timing at all to use a sharpie or something to add a small marker to make it easier to see spinning?
he did that in the vid... 3:38
at that rpm the mark is just a blur
And here I am impressed by Euler's disc spinning for a couple of minutes. This is on another level. You could say it's... high-performance.
High performance, seeing this channel for the first time, no bs just straight graphs, beautiful machining and spinning shots and lovely music. Instant sub
Thank you! I always aim for quality uploads :)
High-Performance! I appreciate the time you've invested in this project to fit your design objectives and constraints!
I don’t know whether I am more impressed with the math and science of this, or the art. This is some high-performance work right here. Seriously, love this to bits.
Something about the high-performance from a hand-spun top is... magical. Your choice of music makes it just as glorious as it ought to be.
to me, theres nothing more satisfying than taking what is a simple directive to its utmost limit. bravo
High performance is an understatement! Well done
Thank you very much :)
why are there so many comments saying "High Performance! xxxx"? it looks really suspect, like hes paying for views or offering "prizes" to people for commenting, i.e. buying views.
@@FingerinUrDaughter Have a look at 4:57😄
@@hiper_tops ahh that clears it up. thanks for making that clear, i was a bit sketched off from the comments. i have removed my dislike though, seeing as there is no shady shit going on.
Amazing! I imagine getting a top to spin this long teaches you things that are SUPER transferrable to modern engineering. Like, every problem you had to solve probably also exists in electric motors, car engines, etc
I like to think so! It's definitely opened doors for me haha
For anyone wondering, background music is Liebestraum No 3 by Franz Liszt
thank you
Take our money! Commercialize that bad boy ASAP!
Okay! haha :) The thing is this product would be quite expensive (very small supply, a lot of skilled manual labour and rare materials) and I want to deliver something amazing! There's a lot of work to do ... but of course I will keep everyone updated😄
You can always offer the poor man's 10 min top :) But, I want one spinning in my office for 30minutes at a time so I can pomodoro between spins @@hiper_tops
@@hiper_topsEven with a high price tag I would love to have one of these. But no pressure, hobbies don’t need to be commercialized.
@@hiper_tops If you're hesitant to produce them, maybe release the blueprints so machinists can make them on their own.. ??
Perfect example that anything can be developed even further. Anything, even something as simple as a tabletop. It just need a bright mind! Great work
Beautiful high-performance object mate, crazy how it doesn't stop even after touching the ground
There sure is a lot of angular momentum in that flywheel - thank you very much
A spectacular feat of precision engineering for a self taught teenager. It looks simply beautiful. You have navigated the complexities of physics and mathematics very well. Congratulations HiPer Tops.
This means a lot! Thank you :)
High-Performance! That was absolutely fantastic. Congratulations on your success, that was beautiful to watch
Thank you very much! :)
Any chance for a small commercial batch for new admirers of the craft to keep deskside and help fund the cause??
Hey thanks for the interest :) I am currently trademarking my brand etc and working towards producing a small number of tops similar to Mk.22! I don't have an ETA right now, especially because I have a lot of uni work to do XD However my goal is to have something(s) to auction off over summer. In the future, I aspire to manufacture smaller, simpler, perhaps single-twirl versions which may be easier to manufacture and sell at scale :) I'll post any updates on this channel and my instagram: hiper_spinning_tops
Never thought that an hour was even a possibility, I always considered a minute as impressive.
What if you make it wider and more centered, it looks too wobbly and the materials need changing on the base and tip
All good points, regarding the wideness, I believe 70mm is optimal for multi twirl tops like these as any more and air drag would be too much and any less and tip drag would be too much. I am looking into base and tip materials!
High performance! For aerodynamics it would be really cool to see smoke stream testing on this. I think the geometry of the base may actually be pretty significant. For the top itself, maybe a blade around the center of the top better direct the top and bottom air flows as they come together? On the friction side of things it may be worth going back to a dual material or hollow design. It would complicate your analysis there, but it may be worth it to bring mass down without affecting inertia too much
ua-cam.com/video/oKxrP7-QXpk/v-deo.html at 11m 51s
How long would it spin inside of a vacuum?
Congratulations
Thank you very much :)
Does the tip you grab to spin it increase air drag due to its roughness? And if so, have you considered polishing it like the rest of the top to achieve even less drag, and perhaps spinning it up with some other device that could still grip the smooth surface, like some sort of custom rubber drill bit or gripping device? I'm totally new to this hobby and have zero engineering background, so I'm sure this is a super obvious question. But just was curious!
It is good thinking! Thankfully, I can afford to knurl the stem because since the radius is relatively small here compared to the flywheel, the drag it experiences is negligible. Theoretically making it smaller/polished would help but I really don't think it would make any noticeable difference! Stay curious :)
Congratulations James! What a fantastic achievement, well done.
Thank you!😄
Does the wide base act as a wing producing a small amount of lift? There could be improvements there.
Not currently, it is wide and heavy for stability and shaped mainly for aesthetics. Lift is something I've explored in some other comments of this video and we conclude it is likely not a feasible method for improvement. It would create too much drag for too little decrease in tip friction.
This is amazing! To me this is the ultimate in the "unlimited" class of tops, essentially doing anything you want with the geometry. However, I feel a little bit of the essence of the classic top is lost by allowing a recessed tip and elevated stand--as that essentially removes the part that makes most tops fall over: the precession from CG being above the tip, and the effect of the sides of the top contacting the ground if your spin technique isn't perfect. Therefore as a follow on I think it would be cool to see your optimization of the design under a "legacy" class where it has to run on a flat surface (no recessed tip, or cupped holder). I wonder how the design would change.. because you still would want to get the CG as low as possible, but if too low, the sides would contact the ground too easily. So it's a different optimization. Anyway, as an engineer this is where my mind goes. Good work.
This is a good idea, I would love to develop a top optimised for single spin, spinning on a flat surface etc. I should be able to use a lot of the formulas etc I've found so far, but it would be an interesting new set of design challenges!
What an amazing video. What tops it for me is seeing you build it in your shop. I can only imagine the stress of making the pieces with such nice materials. Truly high performance!
Thank you! Yes some of it was made on a lathe at my university as it cuts harder materials like tungsten better. However most was done on my mini-lathe in my bedroom!
High performance, would golf ball dimples help with drag?
It's a cool idea but unfortunately not! Golf ball dimples help by increasing viscous (skin friction) drag but decreasing pressure drag (by more!). Since spinning tops don't experience pressure drag and only viscous drag, dimples would be counter productive. You may find this video interesting:
ua-cam.com/video/g_LTJTaOxCs/v-deo.html&ab_channel=BilletSPIN
Note the best top has internal dimples, however the change in airflow in this region is unlikely to be the helping factor; but rather light-weighting to reduce tip friction.
I have never had the thought to create a world class spinning top. But, I sure appreciate the dedication and precision you have shown toward your craft. Congratulations on your achievement!
I really want to see this spin in a vacuum chamber, but i don’t know how you’d get it started
since it spins for an hour in air, could probably get it going then pull a vacuum. Would be interesting
@@tebla2074 Good point. I'm curious how much it would affect the time. It would quantify roughly how much drag there is compared to friction. Could give insight onto further improvements.
@@rebeccarivers4797 You are right, this data would be very useful. And @tebla2074 is right about how it can be achieved. I just need to get access to a suitable vacuum chamber, however I suspect making one myself may be easier as what I'm looking for is quite an unusual shape. I'll see what I can do!
Epoxy resin vacuum chamber perfect shape and size
@rebeccarivers4797 also, have you ever spun this up with a motor? Would be interesting to see how long it can go with higher starting rpm
Does oil on the tip make a difference? Should if its not a perfect point?! Or is that breaking some rule
Doesn't break a rule and yes I use a small amount of oil lubricant :) It can prolong spins by as much as 5%!
High-Performance! Love this - I'd definitely buy one of these, so I'm looking forward to when they are ready for sale.
Edit: scratch the below, I'm not the first person to ask this!
Also, I have question: I'm curious, would a dimpled pattern, akin to a golf ball, make for a more efficient grip? In the case of the golf ball, this helps to keep the flow of air more tightly bound to the ball, so there's a smaller pocket of low pressure behind it, but in the case of a rotating object, I don't know if the dimples would be of any use, or if it would make drag worse due to the turbulence. I suppose you may have already considered this, given the number of iterations. I'm interested to hear your thoughts on it.
Thank you very much! It's good thinking but as you would have read me explain, not the best approach in this case :)
How does knurling on the stem decrease drag?
I meant instead of using deep knurling, I only slightly textured the surface which in comparison causes a bit less drag :) But yes knurling in general slightly increases air drag
Magnificent !! Beautiful art, beautiful effort. Well done.
Can you design one that continue to spin when the wind is blowing?
High-performance!
Thats some amazing work you've done
James, I think I saw an old video of your some years ago but happened across this one today. Unbelieveable! Truly a High-performance spinning top.
A few points / questions:
1) Please fix your CAD! I saw you had made it in a public Onshape document so I had a look, and you're making life so difficult for youself.
a. Model the whole top in a single part studio! There's no need to create a seperate document for every part. Think of documents as binders which hold everything related to something. They can have parts, assemblies, drawings, etc inside. It will make your life so much easier modifying the design and keeping interfaces working between parts.
b. Some of your parts aren't fully defined (blue vs black sketch segments) which may cause you headaches down the line if you accidentally adjust something and attempt to make it again.
c. Your assembly is floating in space, and has no relation to the origin. Move the point of the tip to the origin, and then aling everything about the Z axis. Then when you measure CoG of the assembly its coordinates will be in relation to the point of the tip.
d. I couldn't help myself and re-modelled the Mk.23 shown in the video. If you go to Onshape > Public Documents and search for "James Goh - MK.23 Clean" You should find it.
2) I noticed in your CAD that the brass appears to be an interference fit, if so, how do you ensure that it bottoms out or at least gets extremely close, as if it doesn't bottom out correctly you'll raise the CoG up inadvertently.
3) As others have said, I would watch the hell out of a multi-part, multi-hour detailing of the math and design you've put into the iterations. It's truly remarkable.
Thank you for these notes! My CAD skills definitely need work haha - I'm more used to solid works but working on a mac at the moment. I found your document - thank you! Regarding 2), I believe that may be an error as the tapered tip holder uses a friction fit. And for 3) I am working on something along these lines but it may take a while as I am back at uni now.
High-Performance! Congrats on hitting 1 hour, if you haven't already, you should see if you can get an official world record with Guinness. I'm not sure how that works personally, but if it interests you, then I'm sure you can figure it out. Good luck with that, and/or with your future tops.
Would have to have a standardised starting rpm
@@prich0382 Why? isn't starting RPM something people could compete on? As long as it's spun up by hand.
@@prdoyle Yes a Hand done no machine run top should have own category as the 27 hour top has one of the magnet flywheel engines inside so machine can go for a very long time. Also, a big spinning item that uses earth rotation and is still spinning was once considered a top before Guinness World Records changed it into a time category.
This channel is true dedication to a hobby. Kudos on your amazing spinning tops. Looking forward to mk 23.
It's a mistake that the world record is held by someone who made a top that was battery-powered. Guinness world records really is a joke sometimes
With long spin times do you run into issues with the angle and rotation of the earth like a pendulum does?
In my case, thankfully not because unlike an unrestrained pendulum or gyroscope, my tops can only freely rotate about their primary axis :)
What are the criteria you are adhering to? Does the CG have to be higher than the tip? How much?
Yes, CG must be higher than the tip however by how much is not specified. In practice, it is near impossible to get critical speed lower than 20rpm before the top no-longer topples - at which point it is considered -ve CG.
I’m impressed by the high performance level of dedication you’ve put into designing these wonderful tops!
Would a graphite spinning surface reduce friction? Powdered graphite is a good dry lubricant. Could help reduce friction if the tip didn’t machine it away too quickly
True, regarding graphite's lubricating abilities, however as you suspected it is far too soft given the weight of my tops - the pressure at the tip is almost 400MPa! A hole would instantly be drilled and enlarged until a large area of contact removed any gains from lubrication.
High performance! What a beautiful combination of engineering, science, manufacturing and determination. You should be very proud.
Thank you :)
What a beautiful piece of art you have created and such high-performance to boot!! I and my autistic grandson would love to have something like this in our collection.
Thank you for sharing your passion with us all!! 😎💜
Thank you for the kind words! I’m glad you two enjoyed the video :)
With the spin times going beond an hour can you notice the spin of the earth desplayed as gyroscopic precision?
High performance! Thank you UA-cam algorithm for chucking this one at me. And thank you for your dedication to a somewhat niche subject.
Congratulations on such an accomplishment!
This is seriously marvelous ! High performance indeed.
My wet dream is a world where everything is engineered with this amount of love.
Keep it up !
Just found out about this channel, it's a super cool engineering effort!
One thing I'd like to add: I don't like fragile + specific machines, particularly it needing a specific base and hand cranked multiple times.
If you can optimize a version for the average desk surface + one finger-length of spin, would be awesome! and also fruitful for you if you decide to commercialize it.
Also, personal preference: Using a hard rock as a material would be such a statement of "This is just a rock, but we engineered the hell out of it!"
The specific base is massively important in both endurance and reliability of the top
Can you spin it in a vacuum?
So this is the only video I’ve seen of this series so I have not learned all that you have in this process and I do not know what rules you have for yourself or what the hp-top community has, but the first things that come to mind without changing the top/base itself is just changes to the overall system:
eliminating drag altogether via vacuum, and;
changing the temperature of the system (i hypothesize decreasing the Temperature of the top and the base would work best).
As for the top itself, (again I’ve not experimented and learned for 7 years like you have), there’s a new material in the making - carbon nitride - and I think it boasts some decent potential as a tip/base material, should be between cubic boron nitride and diamond in hardness, some say it surpasses diamond in some areas, I think compressive strength. idk it’s lattice structure tho I think there’s a handful they’re trying. It’ll probably be an expensive material to experiment with but maybe in junction with a diamond tip/base or a a cubic BN tip/base it’ll fair well.
I also don’t know your lubrication methods/results but a low viscosity lubricant may fair well, but it’ll have some form of drag on the system, but by making a thinner tip for the spinner you may be able to reduce frictional drag from the lubricant, but that’s probably diminishing returns.
I can imagine there’s some effect that can be taken advantage of my mind kinda goes to magnetism or superconductors but I feel like those would be somewhat cheating/violating the “rules.” Maybe somewhere in the universe there’s a non-Newtonian lubricant with the ideal properties for a lubricant.
The only other suggestions I could make design wise would be along the lines of reducing surface area near the center of the spinning area (the big flat disc shaped area) to be 2+ aerodynamic rods connecting the tip and handle to the outer ring.
There’s a handful of other experimentals id do but I’m about to pass out and I’m partially regretting going to college for business seeing as I love this stuff so much.
What a cool idea to try to optimize a spinning top. A one hour spin is insane! Would it help reduce drag if it didn't want to fall over? Putting the rotating point above the center of gravity so it'll balance even when standing still? Or would it not count as a top anymore then?
It wouldn't strictly count as a top, and also since my tops fall at such a low speed, there wouldn't be that much gained time anyway!
Are you able to put a thin layer of silicone lubricant where the point of the top meets the base?
I currently use an oil lubricant however if you have any tribological suggestions I’m all ears :) something good under extreme pressure, low viscosity and friction!
@@hiper_tops Hmm, I don't know how well it works under extreme pressure but I used a personal lubricant on the slide action of a miter saw and it smoothed up really well. It might sound like a joke but the Turned On brand on Amazon is a good place to start, that's what I used. The ingredients are Dimethicone, Cyclopentasiloxane, Dimethiconol, Phenyl Trimethicone. It's light weight and low viscosity. What oil do you currently use?
@@hiper_tops Hey there, just wanted to check in if you were able to try other lubricants. I was thinking perhaps using multiple types of lubricants may help too. For example, you can clean then apply a viscus lubricant onto the stand. Then wipe it clean and buff it to leave a super, super thin coating, then apply a thin lubricant that doesn't mix with the thicker one. The idea is to have multiple layers to add lubricity.
Another idea is perhaps to apply a teflon coating, buff, then your thin lubricant on top of that. I think you can buy teflon spray, but I really don't like the forever chemicals...
Just some thoughts to mull over.
High-Performance! Thank you for introducing me to the world of long duration tops, can't wait to see the full spin vid.
Thanks for watching!😄
High-Performance! Nice video!
Hyper-Satisfying - Major kudos .. I'm not a big top person, but fully appreciate the obsession with this.
so this is what it does when you spin it by hand, how long will it go if you really send it with a dremel or starting with a string and a high performance bearing to hold the top steady?
I like your choice of music. Apart from the milestone you have achieved! Great job!
Thanks haha :)
The High-est-Performance video I've seen all day. Well done!
I now need to see a high performance video on the world record history of tops.
High-performance spinning tops is not what I expected to be binging😂 thanks for the content!
Not quite sure what the rules are, but would a lowfriction bearing between the tip and the body be beneficial? It would reduce the tip speed for lower friction, but would also add another point of friction. If the relation between rotational speed and friction is squared it should be beneficial. Right?
Just fascinating! I have had a desire to make a long spin top for so long, yet I didn’t know of your channel. perhaps when my workshop is finished I can make something that will spin for 10min! It’s funny about your pinned comment. My first thought was golf ball dimples then micro dimples (but seeing your comment these woukd be useless!) and then finally uranium! I’ve actually wanted some for so long. I have searched how to buy uranium so many times I’m probably on a watchlist, apparently older aircraft counterweights used to be uranium.
I’d recommend tungsten over uranium hahaha, congrats on 10min! That’s not easy
This may have been suggested ... a magnetic bearing is feasible and would greatly decrease the frictional loss. In this method there is no physical contact between the rotor and base.
Does it have to be in an atmosphere environment? Magnetically suspended in a vacuum is not permitted?
High Performance is an understatement, now im wondering if something like this could be incorporated into a vertical wind generator or motor. Incredible
This looks like one of the most futuristic designs I have seen in a long time! Out of this world!
But I have no idea why!?
High performance!
Honestly, very detailed and precise work. Im sure the satisfaction of breaking that barrier was unmatched.
A suggestion: You can add some permanent magnet to counteract weight. You cannot do levitation with magnets but you can lower force on the pointy tip and therefore lower friction. But rotating metal next to a magnet will lose energy thanks to eddy currents, so you will need to use something nonconductive.
So you want to *almost* levitate it?
#active levitating top
@@neptarclepuffin Usually this rotates only several minutes. I guess because of eddy currents so you need to use ferrites. I think partial weight compensation will work better cause levitating may lose stability at low speed, dissipate energy via vibration, etc (and it looks kinda like cheating).
Is using a lubricant allowed? For example a crankshaft bearing (which sometime don’t even use a bearing at all…just engine oil) they survice a countless violent rotation when the car moving around
To further refine and optimize your equation, do tests under vacuum to isolate the component of friction and get empirical data to inform your simulation
This might be a lot to implement, but you could also do the inverse by building an assembly using magnetic bearings to isolate the air drag. If that finds its way into the final product, you could be in the 3+ hr range
Congratulations. It’s been so fun to watch your tops improve with each video. I don’t know how many hundreds of dollars this would cost to produce a small run, but I would back the hell out of that Kickstarter
Thank you :) To be transparent, if I were to make 10 or so Mk.22-like tops (something I am thinking about), they would be at least 600 USD each. Aside from the large material cost - especially the flywheel - it takes many hours of skilled labour on my part to get them to as high a standard as this. It's an economic puzzle! However I am very aware of the large demand and want to produce something so stay tuned😄
@@hiper_tops yeah that is definitely in the range of what I expected. I’m still backing at ~$600!
@@andymangold Thank you that's very encouraging to hear😇
Would it make any sense to reduce tip friction by adding features that produce some amount of aerodynamic lift? Or would the corresponding drag be too much?
This is an interesting idea which I have not considered before. I have a strong instinct that the increase in air drag would be disproportionate to the gains in reduced tip drag - this is particularly because for the top to have any significant lift, it would have to be spinning incredibly fast and spinning fast = lots of air losses! It would quickly slow to the point where little-no lift is gained.
ua-cam.com/video/KCt0byMMrDI/v-deo.html&ab_channel=kevinmartin
You may find this video interesting, however note in this case the features create a boosting torque when blown on as opposed to a lifting force.
I think it would be difficult because the amount of lift is proportional to the rotation speed, the top constantly changes speed so it would be difficult to optimize for an amount of lift that is beneficial yet doesn't result in the top simply floating off the platform
Just hot recommended this video. A dumb question for sure but im bew to this. How do you spin the top when going for a record?
The thing that got me the most was how gently the top slowed down to its final rotation. It kept seeming like it was going to stop at any moment, but somehow its *Performance* continued.
Also, forgive the tangent, but this was the first time I've seen 999 thumbs up on a video, allowing me to be the 1,000th. Maybe not a *High* point in my digital existence, but kinda cool.
High quality video mate. Watched it till the end and was quite a pleasant experience. Congratulations on that piece of engineering, it’s amazing.
Thank you! Have been working on the editing :)
I havent watched many of your videos so this might have been tried at some point but have you considered an air bearing? You could make the bottom of the top a ball bearing. Set it in a presicion machined matching base and blow air up through the base to reduce the material friction
Did you think about a ruby point and a sapphire clock face base or it would not make much difference at this point?
I have considered it, in fact Mk.21 could use a ruby point. However ruby is less hard than tungsten carbide so carbide ends up being a bit better!
I love that this is something someone has dived into.
I would love to buy that spinning top! The high performance craftsmanship and spin time is amazing
Thank you! If you would like to join the mailing list to be updated when one is ready to sell, fill out the google form in the description :)
Is mirror finish the option with the lowest drag? What about shark skin finish or golf ball dimples?
Mirror finish is the best option. I am researching advanced techniques like riblets but something as simple as dimples or roughening the surface would be detrimental.
Damn... this is such a good channel, the subject is interesting the vibes are perfect and the high performance passion make it so good... Continue like that :D
That is one HIGH PERFORMANCE bit of engineering! Top work 😊😊
High Performance! Nice job! Form follows function. When a machine does so efficiently it is beautiful! :)
im really curious at which RPMs it fails to stay stable at. any info on that?
Initially, it toppled at 60 RPM, however after further manual balancing, I reduced this all the way to 30RPM! I'll release the full spin soonish and you will see in that just how slow that is. This reduction in critical speed alone added 3 minutes
I have nothing to do with spinning tops other than this random video which was recommended, but after visiting the record page and seeing the previous record holder, I have to say I was slightly more impressed with Iacopo Simonelli's run. The single twist start and the trueness of his top throughout, at least until 40mins of 51 was a touch more mesmerising to me. You're top seemed to start going through various wobble phases from 35mins on, maybe tip wear? None the less hats off for the determination and thanks for the interesting entertainment👍
I agree Iacopo’s tops are incredible! They have been an inspiration since the start. I aspire to achieve the seemingly perfect balance his tops have. Regarding the single spin, this really ought to be a separate category (and I think he would hold the record)
Thank you, @antichicmusic. I don't think it's tip wear. Tungsten alloys have disomogeneous density so tops made with these materials are almost always less or more badly unbalanced, there can be also couple unbalance, not only static unbalance, so it takes some patience and knowledge to balance them perfectly.
@@hiper_tops , thank you.
High performance indeed, very good. Have you considered a dimpled finish rather than mirror polish for reducing aerodynamic drag, like a golf ball?
Does Earth rotation affect these spinning tops?
How about coating with nickel boron? I have bolt carrier groups for some of my rifles coated with NiB and they cycle longer and smoother with less friction.
I just want to stare at it for hours, I am now subscribed.
I would love to see how long this can go in a vacuum chamber after being spun up with a battery drill.
Is there a way to spin it on an air cussion like whe you spin the two parts of a glas syringe?
Some thinking out loud. The bottom of the spinning top expels air outwards, creating a slight low pressure zone underneath, and therefore a slight downforce onto the tip. Would there be a way to change the geometry of the base such that you create a slightly higher pressure zone instead, decreasing the tip force?
May I recommend this video:
ua-cam.com/video/-wggqn9sgiI/v-deo.html&ab_channel=IacopoSimonelli
As you can see, and I have found with my tops, spinning tops act as centrifugal pumps, expelling air radially in a disk at the maximum radius of the flywheel. Even if I could deflect the air such as to create a high pressure under the top, I suspect this effect would be negligible in comparison to the weight of the top.
Exploring using the ground effect or air bearing tech would be interesting, and I believe it would help, however it feels like cheating. For the effect to be useful, the top and the ground would have to be so close that the top can no longer 'topple' - and hence is not a spinning top.
Still, aero is definitely a possible area for improvement!
@@hiper_tops In airplanes, the ground effect works up to a height of about half the wingspan. I can see how a spiral groove bearing would feel like cheating (despite being technically contactless) but do you really need the surfaces to be that close for it to be an improvement?
@@xzorby Actually I'm not sure I would call what I'm imagining the ground effect - since there's no lateral airflow to be compressed here, I was thinking air would have to be sucked in and expelled downwards.
Aside from the large drag this would cause, to have a 1% decrease in the weight of the top, assuming a down-flow of air half the ground area of the top could be achieved, 14.5km/hr winds would have to be generated. This is just some back-of-the-envelope maths but is very generous and I think shows how difficult it would be to decrease tip friction by deflecting the airflow.
@@hiper_tops Ah so like a helicopter? Helicopters do benefit from ground effect so you might need a little less airspeed than what you calculated, but still I don't think the decrease in tip drag would ever outweigh the increase in aerodynamic drag.
I meant leaving the top smooth and closed as is, and just reshaping the base to redirect the airflow it already creates. As you said, the top functions a bit like a centrifugal pump, or perhaps a free spinning centrifugal pump rotor. My suggestion is to give the rotor a partial housing perhaps with grooves, redirecting the radially expelled air axially to underneath the top, thereby increasing the pressure below. I guess that would have little to do with ground effect. The top would sit in a "bowl" with grooves, or "half shroud", so again it might feel like cheating. Also I don't know how much benefit it would be.
@@xzorby I see! Iacopo simonelli has used near-full shrouds around the flywheel portions of his tops and found a benefit of about 5% for spin times. However he attributed this to the reduced velocity gradient, since the shroud keeps circulating air around the top. I believe it would be possible, though a little complicated, to redirect the existing air flow downwards. However, still not nearly enough air is being moved to help.
would it be possible to use something like a diamond spin tip to decrease friction?
This guy really likes tops!
You could say I'm obsessed haha