bungie needs to change
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- Опубліковано 1 жов 2024
- bungie needs to change
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#Sweatcicle #Bungie #Destiny2
www.gdcvault.com/play/1027599/From-Box-Products-to-Live
Here are the slides if you wanted to look through it for yourself. This was originally an hour+ rant, but for the sake of importance I wanted to cut it down. Please watch the full thing before giving opinions, thank you.
I love what you've had to say. To me, gaming these days feels like a chore where you receive an incomplete product that you have to play along with its development. The old model is what games like Elden Ring followed which led it to being Game of the Year! It was a finished product with some minor bugs in which they quickly addressed and fixed which pretty much everyone was happy with. Destiny 2 doesn't feel like that. I've been playing since the D1 beta, heck since the OG Halo days where it felt and still feels like a completed product. D2 has so many bugs nearly every patch or major update released in which it takes them FOREVER to address. They still haven't addressed melee whiffing in pvp, Duality dungeon bugs, etc. They need to listen to the players who actually care about the mechanics of the game rather than pushing a narrative and hoping people would just settle with it. I know this is a long thread but it's something that has been irritating me for years considering the amount of time, energy, and money I've spent on this game and still not getting even close to what I want out of it
Wow, stating a box game as overdelivery is f**ing bold. Btw completely agree with everything you said Sweat.
Can you post the 1hr plus recording but make it unlisted?
Can you post the 1 hour plus rant? I'd like to see it, you could just unlist it.
Much better breakdown of this messaging than compared to other streamers. It literally seems like Bungie wants to keep expectations low because overdelivering is bad for the future, but I think this message is disingenuous, really they only want to put so much developer time and money into Destiny because they are putting more money and time into developing other games and Destiny is on the backburner. However, they want us to believe its "better for us and them" to stick with this tired, seasonal, drip fed model of minimum content and maximized profit. Ugh....
Ahhh the good ol sweat thumbnail
the old mom took my legos pouty face
I got grounded for a week face 😂
Signature look of disappointment.
Me after seeing my fate:
Students when your teacher gives you a 100 question pop quiz (i got turned into an actual meme for this in my school cuz of that)
They were so fast this season they forgot exotic armor.
This comment is amazing
Yup. I bet they are going to over deliver on ligthfall and say "look how many new exotics we have with this expansion!"
Lmao... Its funny but sad
@@id1550 eh
I'm going to be expecting at least two exotic armor pieces for strain for each class. But we probably will only get one.
The thing that made Forsaken so great was overdelivery. I remember playing through the campaign with a couple of friends thinking "Wow, this is cool." and finishing up everything in the Tangled Shore. Then all of a sudden we're going to the Dreaming City and it's fucking huge and that space kept evolving for months with new lore stuff and secrets to find. That is what I want to see in a future expansion again. "Here is Lightfall, knock yourselves out on Neptune! Oh by the way, here is a completely revamped Mars as a playable zone as well.".
And if there is so much energy and love for their own game, why not let people put that energy into the game? Seems like they are shooting themselves in the foot.
Bungie didn’t solely make forsaken.
@Ascenndant yup I miss vv
@@omensoffate I know, but the point still stands even if Vicarious Visions was a big part of Forsaken.
People tend to focus on the content development side and not the technical side. The truth is, the game doesn't have much life left in it from a technical standpoint. You're starting to see it more and more, from connection issues, bugs, stability, UI lag.
A lot of these issues have been in the game for months to years. Im sure there have been attempts behind the scenes to mitigate or fix these issues but the reality is they can only do so much with antiquated, hard to work with tools. If Bungie isn't developing D3 with a new engine i'd be shocked. What I think they are trying to do is get through the next two years Get The Final Shape out the door and hope the wheels dont fall off so they can launch D3 with a new engine and a fresh start.
Bungie sole work shown more from Shadowkeep. And the concurrent couldnt be more than 60k-70k (many are addicts) for the past what 3-4 years which is pretty low for their so called "MMO" game? But I guess thats the amount they care about when not being pushed to work along with other studios on your back, and when players see the pattern on the bad, the bored side, people likely to move on.
Funny thing is "Overdelivery" is what made Taken King, Rise of Iron and Forsaken "good" in the eyes of the playerbase.
what about the eyes of the developers?
@@NullUserException1 It clearly is a problem to the devs. And the shit state of the game reflects their fear of delivering good content for once. I'm just saying that whenever a Destiny expansion got praised, it was always the "overdelivery" ones. Always those that had actual relevant content, a storyline that made sense throughout the year and incentive to come back and play for your own gamer pleasure and not out of "obligation" towards a flawed seasonal system.
@@NullUserException1 what about using more of their new devs for destiny you know the main ship , the cash cow , the chicken of the golden eggs instead of their new ips?
@@agssilv5919 yeah honestly idfk on that one. i do know bungie is understaffed, though.
@@PEEK-A-BOO101 you miss my poiny entirely.
It's so wild that they said that they were about to close their doors and Forsaken saved them, and then they turned around and vaulted Forsaken and said "whew let's never put out a product that good again, that would be bad for us." Like literally the thing that saved the company, they view as something bad that shouldn't happen again.
Bro it’s literally hurting my brain….
Makes you want to not spend your hard earned cash on a company that has this viewpoint
@@isaacvelasco6498 yes, this has kept me from wasting my money on Avatar 2.....i spent it all on destiny.....
can you read the sarcasm yet?
that's why I'm not buying new content for d2 anymore and leaving the game completely
Its sadder when the sunk-cost has set in so hard for people that they quite literally defend this strategy; all it took was to turn malice into flowery prose and they slobbered all over that bait.
The realization that bungle has me by the balls hit me when I got my friend to try out the game after she had played season of the worthy as her first season and had abandoned the game due to hating the constant grinding of the same boring activities. The moment she saw that the new exo vendor had the same layout as the season of the worthy vendor, she deleted the game and said that it would be the same as back then. I realized that since she had a bad starting experience, she doesn’t have the „the next season might get better“ mindset that I got from playing when the game had minimal flaws. My friend that have been playing since beta with me have also developed a sense of apathy and believe that the game will not change. So I’m left with my expectations, unable to let go due to the addiction of how good the game was at times and the hope that it will eventually return to glory.
I can't even defend the game anymore which makes me sad :(
I feel this. I’ve experienced this feeling. We want the game to be great and hit the spot again. It’s not going to. The devs are never going to craft a quality experience. They are only ever going to craft the bare minimum that gets them the $. Their mentality kills quality game creation. I left and I encourage you to do the same. I got the itch to play again, but finally shutting the door feels good and the decision gets better with time. You’re friend had the right idea. There are better games believe me.
Damn, this is actually the same reason when I uninstalled D2 and left my clan without saying anything
I caught myself in the exact same loop. I'm glad you realized the game isn't going to get better and got away.
Couldn’t have said it better myself
This hits hard for me. I am about as hardcore as a Destiny player can be. Played consistently since D1 beta, with needed breaks now and then. However, this is the first time in a while that I haven’t turned the game on for a new season. Its totally pointless. And when someone like myself who has time and time again defended Bungie says it’s pointless to play the game, you know there is a problem.
i have also been playing since the D1 beta and i cant agree more, the state of the game is so disappointing the fact i used to grind this game for hours and hours hell i have over 10k hours on D1 itself its very disappointing im not even playing the new season due to nothing being new and there shit system
D2 shadow keep joiner here. I am a Bungie defender. But ive lost interest in this season too. There's more in eververse than in the game.
Whats worse is that they've seen this before several times. After the first launch of Destiny, during the dark days of the content droughts before The Taken King, D2 launch, Curse of Osiris, they dont learn.
I haven't seen the full video yet but I feel you
Tbh I would return to the game just to mess around in tbe cosmodrone.
"Got a new pc upgrade, gotta check out the best place in the game."
"Wow, it runs well with it and it looks beautiful. Anyway, lets go back to playing "
Bungie is upset that players have “high” expectations but Bungie themselves set those expectations. For example, they’ve promoted we were getting 20+ exotic weapons reworks for months now but what we got in reality was minor tweaks that you wouldn’t even notice.
Speak for yourself... I have been getting whisper of the worm 360 jump shot no scopes all left right and center this season in crucible!
Welcome to reality unfortunately.
Lower your expectations. This company doesn’t bend to your will. It imposes its will on you because YOU still pay for it. So stfu.
we can tell he's serious when Sweat breaks out the Powerpoint presentation
@@udontknowme00 he was making a joke lmao
you can hear it in his voice
I said this in the forums years ago to someone who said that since im complaining so much why dont I just leave since I hate the game so much: "Bungie should thank their lucky stars that there are people who complain about their game, because it means they care. They should be terrified of the day that those same people stop showing up. Hate is not the opposite of love, its indifference."
The Destiny sub Reddits are consistently full of yes men. You’d be surprised how many times I’ve been told the same thing…
You are completely right, and that is what happened. Although my clan isn't the biggest its only around 20 people but none of us have touched D2 in months and I don't think any of us plan on touching it any time soon either.
I have been playing since the D1 Beta and this will be the first year where I don't pre-order the DLC in advance and I doubt I will be buying it at all unless there is a radical change.
Now that ive seen into their minds i have even less hope for this game than i had before. Staggering. Didnt know that was possible
I think the company is lying to themselves. Trying to convince yourself this is the way we must go despite the numbers is just pure arrogance. Hopefully they realize this soon because if they don't, I personally don't see this game performing well in the final shape
okay calm down
@@shellywilly2928 How could you calm down when you just got physical evidence to know the game is rolling downhill at a increasing rate and the company thinks it's GOOD for it?
@@archangelgabriel8493 Seeing this fuckin terrifies me for this games future, now that we know how they think.
@@jfreece5740 Honestly it might die before the end of lightfall. I would hate to see it happen but the numbers in season of plunder got dangerously low. Also it's sad to know that they are literally shutting down their developers creating the lack of innovation the game so desperately needs. I agree that bungie is doing a great job with their velocity but soon they are about to crash into a brick wall full throttle.
It's sad man, devs are so out of touch with their audience these days.
Back in the early days of Destiny, Luke Smith actually said that they were "surprised" that the community didn't like the game. Lol.
It’s not the developers that’s out of touch... It’s the studio and the upper management that calls the shots. The devs are the ones wanting to create the amazing content (as described in the presentation).
@@lilbu223 Kinda the reason that fuck was sunset from bungie.
It's not really the devs, it's the ones above them. They literally admitted to holding back their devs for "fear of over delivery." They basically said they don't want us our expectations to get too high because they'd rather have a steady flow of revenue, versus asking us to wait a little longer.
this hurt my soul. it basically solidified to me that destiny will never be amazing and reach the potential that we all can see it has.
Their mediocrity is working financially... so they will keep going the same route. At the end of the day, people are one trailer away from pre ordering Lightfall deluxe edition.
We think alike, it just bothers me so much, they could have eaten the entire gaming live service industry... but no.
This is what we needed to see. I will 100% reduce my time spent on this game until it fizzles out of my life. All that time spent is sunk cost.
Then you missed the point. Completely. This was a talk showing other developers how to build for sustainability and quality over time. Not a crunch-fueled spasm that you can’t repeat and that pushed your people to the brink (Bioware, Ubisoft). This talk just confirmed a lot of what I suspected…and the negative reaction is also confirming a lot about this community that I suspected.
@@cmaccheri it’s called “consistency” not “mediocrity”…and consistency is how you build a successful brand. As opposed to creating the problems that Bioware and CDPR created for themselves by creating expectations that they couldn’t meet. Even with trying to break their people. What you’re seeing here is the difference in mindset between creating a cyclic product, and a successful ongoing service. Every one of Bungie’s competitors broke every one of those “rules”… and it is why their games have either died (Anthem) or are dying. Because their service is terrible.
What I thought when I saw Aztecross’ video on this was: “This is jazz. “ The difference in mindset between the improvisational approach of a jazz musician as opposed to the perfectionism of a classical musician.
…and why jazz is so much more fun to listen to.
Seems to be a pattern of them blaming the players, instead of taking responsibility for their choices, or lack there of.
Like how the servers having issues was worded as an issue on the players side, when it obviously wasn’t.
Also you mention how they were 5 weeks out from shutting down. Kind of interesting how there new TOS mentions they reserve the right to shut down the game without notice.
I personally canceled my preorder, and after this season, I won’t be back until I see significant improvement across the board.
hows that been working out?
Except they just aren’t fast. That’s the problem. It took over a year to get shatter dive nerfed. Classy restoration existed for 3 months. Fusions have been broken for so long. Linear fusions were broken for so long. Lorely was insane for so many months. Vex was garbage, then extremely op, but still op now. You see where I’m going. They just aren’t fast addressing these things. But what’s even worse is that they make more and more broken things constantly. We had a haven in the anniversary event after stasis had been broken for over a year(shadebinder is still too good tho) then came the 3.0 subclasses, each with plenty of cheese like axions, invis, overshields, restoration, lightning surge. And the camping meta with all pulses and scouts, and melting with sidearms and fusions is just horrible. They just aren’t fast, and they repeat the same mistakes
You are only thinking of the pvp side of destiny
@@SNOWDEVlL which is the worse side of destiny lol
You kind of just described the whole model… their point is to deliver non perfect content quickly and fix things over time. They are quick, pumping out content every 3-4 months.
@@Cembadyx and if you really think about it both sides are dry. Farming the same pve content just to have nothing to do since you already gathered the craftable weapons and such while pvp is a unplayable environment with broken meta weapons and terrible maps and delusional players who think there good because all they did was hold down R2 with a fusion rifle 💀
General take away from this comment was that you’re focusing heavily on the PvP side of the game, which isn’t their biggest market.
But another point: *my guy did you just say Vex is STILL OP?*
The game already nearly just died again and they still won’t snap out of this, man. I’m gonna go play elden ring
I honestly wonder how the development of D2 and actual changes would happen if Bungie switched to 3 seasons a year.. 4 months would feel lengthy sure but they'd have more space to work with on following seasons. I hope the changes they plan for seasons are good, I'm not gonna cancel my preorder and maybe once in a blue moon I'll support charity ingame, but if Lightfall won't truly make us see a good change to the "heart" of Destiny I don't think I'll buy another expansion and just watch it instead
The content of seasons would be better too. I miss the first forsaken year because of that
Honestly I was thinking the same thing 3 seasons a little longer yes, but it gives them more time to make them a little bit better.
This wouldn’t be that bad if they actually kept their core playlists refreshed and updated, they’re supposed to be the repeatable time passing modes, but currently they’re the “grab the pinnacle then don’t touch it again” modes.
How expensive could it be for bungo to hire 20 testers! Whenever they say they play test, they are lying!
Not cancelling Lightfall is the catalyst for them to keep saying the same shit weve heard since Beyond Light and have yet to see. There is zero incentive to change shit if people buy it anyways.
The removal of the motto "we make games we want to play" is the key. It makes me so sad to see what they've become
AND it pisses me off to know end that more people do not call them out for this. At the end of the day the consumers are what drives the product, and bungie has been getting off scot free with these blatant anti-consumer practices. I appreciate sweat bringing more attention to this
I agree with you. D1 is a way better game than D2
@@dani_xxv1128 not my point and I'd rather play d2. I used to be on the d1 nostalgia train but its so dated now. I'm talking halo days and up to forsaken design philosophy
I have 0 faith in them changing anything.
Me neither bud I canceled my light fall pre order a few months ago and I desperately wanted them to win me back but that isn’t going to happen.
@@basedlibertyprime I don’t see a reason to buy it since everyone I played with quit because the game just isn’t good. Came back at the final day of last season to finish the pass and am only playing this season for a little since I own it.
they wont it will die then they will announce Destiny 3
@@mogenvonbogel7342 I wish it’d die maybe then they’d do something.
@@mogenvonbogel7342 Idk if you heard, but they are not and will never make a Destiny 3. After the Darkness saga, Destiny 2 will be unchanged for a little while they make their new saga that will continue off of Destiny 2, but they will never make a new Destiny game. The way that Destiny 2 went which was bad for others (not me because I still love the game to this day) and all the negativity that they have now a days.
I don’t even think the seasonal model is bad, it’s when they make it terrible. The first three seasons with the menagerie, the forge, and gambit prime/ and reckoning was amazing. That is the caliber seasons should be, not a battle pass, and upgrade menu every week.
I think maybe bungie would benefit from only having two seasons per year and doubling up the resources allocated per season so that there's time and people that are able to make new shit rather than reskin the same menu and activity
@@eliaspanayi3465 I agree completely
I think those may have been the “over delivery” seasons
That overdelivery moment fucking sucks bro. I'd take expansions with 2 raids and loads of 'Overdelivery' then 3 seasons offer filler with the last season being the big hype generator, than whatever we're getting now.
Yeah, bungie said the current season is the best they're ever been while me and my friends are getting burnt out of the game even faster than a year or two ago. The seasonal activities are basically the same copy paste horde modes with the same 3x10 grid upgrade system. The new dungeon (spire of the watcher) has got to be the laziest dungeon They've ever put out. Mind numbingly easy mechanics with copy paste bosses.
I get it, if I was at the studio during Curse of Osiris days I wouldn't want any chance of a repeat either. But I can't think of how many people I've heard or read say "even if it ends up being bad, just do something" in relation to Destiny 2. It's really sad to see that the passion is there on the development side, it's just being smothered by the corporate side.
glad you’ve made a video on this, don’t be afraid to share your opinions!
honestly what i think it will take is stopping the preorders and cutting off the purchases, because if we are trying to buy a product that innovates and we are sold on the idea of experimentation, then we get more of the same, they clearly dont want to do that on their current path. i just don't see pre-orders and sales stopping anytime soon
"We should not ship this, because it is an overdelivery that will set us up for failure on future trains."
That explains a lot
Who genuinely thinks that statement is EVER a good idea???
bro Bungie got some of the most talented employees that shipped amazing content for us and your telling me that Bungie is stopping them from innovating and creating cool shit? I’m so disgusted dude I can’t even explain. Poor Employees fr
The fact that they *WANT* to excel beyond what they normally do but are just told outright to not do so is.... pretty wild. And it's all because the businessmen think it will net them more money in the future.
Literally the whole tinfoil theory of "they make half baked shit to sell us the solution later" is proven true. So any time you see some massive fuck up, like what they just did with all of the PvP playlists with the current season.... just know that it MAY be intentionally bad. Because they'll "fix" it and make bangers off of people being excited.
Fuck, they do it with sunset gear. "OH WE'RE GETTING THIS OLD GUN BACK." Nevermind the fact they can easily just flip a switch and add it to the loot pool and actually focus on making a new gun all together.
@@Zayindjejfj its disgusting. I really feel bad for the employees at this point. It would be extremely frustrating to not innovate
It's extremely counterintuitive from any angle, isn't it?
@@mz6137 being a bungie employee is like enlisting in the army. the whole community is barraging you with constant death threats and insults and your boss limits your creativity
They basically said they have a mediocre mindset so they deliver mediocre products, because the community is used to getting the bare minimum and we don't deserve a "great product" because we will expect great products for our money moving forwards... that's literally the most mediocre mindset ever.
I genuinely can't believe bungie thinks this way. It's so sad to see what happened to this game.
best to play it safe with seasons, battle passes etc esp for a live service game. however it doesn’t cut it for a lot of players esp with the size expansions and DLC’s used to have
we've known this for a while. read some reviews by former employees. read the IGN article on the work culture. the gdc panel is just Bungie's cozy reframing of the dark reality that exists within the studio.
Listening to the CEO’s thoughts on the game and company as a whole. Makes me apathetic towards the game and this comes at a time where I was already getting tired of waiting for them to do better.
I would feel apathetic, but the reality is that they are a business that makes a lot of revenue and profit off of us. They don't allocate resources properly and don't care about the current state of the game because they're "two seasons ahead on preparation." The blueprint for the future is a fool's game if your current product is going to shit.
I swear it’s gonna get better bro! Just buy the new expansion bro pls bro
So basically what I understand from this is that as long as we are pre ordering dlcs and paying for seasons we will never truly have the changes we want. So in order for REAL change we all basically have to boycott the game.
Guess we actually have to boycott a game studio fucking give destiny to someone else at this point
Yes
That's gonna happen on its own. Bungie will have to either change their philosophy with lightfall or 2023 is gonna be the biggest drought period we've ever had period. The y likely won't reach the preorders witch queen did, or the hype it received. 5 million new players in WQ yet 50-60k average players in the following months. Those new players that came to try witch queen and left are not gonna try lightfall cause they were so underwhelmed and bored with the last expac.
One thing that just that Bungie needs to look at is No Man's Sky. If a a dev team like that can recover from a failure that large, Bungie should be able to fix and change Destiny easily in comparison. It just doesn't add up that you can have these problems, not address or fix them, then continue to make them after seeing what won you success (Forsaken).
Fixing and changing isn't easy. No man's sky took a lot of work to fix and even now the playerbase is sort of torn on the latest freighter update.
I think the more people bring up the glory days of forsaken, the more this toxic mindset is going to set in for Bungie. "Don't over deliver, because if you fail to over deliver again it will be looked at worse".
@Ya Mum It means they're holding back what's developed and sending it later. It's what D1 did when we OOB in areas.
I'm done comparing stuff to forsaken. Clearly, the more we do that, the less we'll get.
Unfortunately, I fall very much into the apathy mindset currently with Destiny 2. Four days into a new season, I signed in, stood at the Tower for 30 mins trying to decide what to do. I ended up playing one game of the Heist Battleground and then turned the game off. I just could not be bothered with the pinnacle grind as an alternative.
I do this everyday 😂
“Lemme try destiny today”
Ha, you made it further than me. I logged in, hopped into an activity, got error coded and said nope, this is not gonna work chief
@@vialenae you made it even further than me I decided to play Destiny and then I remember that is the 4° season of the expansion
So about the trains vs. train stations analogy. I understand that you’re building train stations in the live service world. It takes a lot of infrastructure and systems to deliver with consistency. But you know what else a train station needs? TRAINS.
Here’s another thing about train stations: Impressive ones have more than one track. They have many service lines coming together at once.
What we’ve had in Destiny for a while now is the same train pulling into the station on the Seasons track four times a year, a brand new train on the Expansions track once a year, and a train with a refurbished cabin on the Reprised Raids track twice a year. Sometimes these trains are pulling into the station at the same time, sometimes not.
Instead of just a train station, what I think players are looking for is an intermodal transport hub. Cars, buses, trains, the whole gamut; a variety of transportation modes! They don’t all have to be there at the same time. But it needs to be more than three types of trains a handful of times a year.
Ya feel?
How tf can it mainly be about velocity? If they're so fast but the fix for something is so dogshit (which happens a lot), the community get even more pissed off.
This is such a stupid corporate mindset to try and convince players that its okay for them to rush shitty patches out.
I hope some studio is paying close attention and will make a live service game that thrives where D2 suffers so badly. Bungie is showing step by step how to make a Destiny killer
After bungie straight up dropped the amazing story they had going with Risen and Haunted, I knew exactly what their plan for the game was. They'll probably do the same thing with lightfall
Also, I love how bungie classifies "what you'd expect from any game in current year" as "overdelivery"
Wanna know why they call it overdelivery? Because they know that people will slop up any kind of garbage they put out. The people paying good money for the product play a big part in this toxic system.
I always say that Destiny was better back when Activision owned it. Bungie may have released some great content being on their own, but the game is in a rough spot right now that it probably wouldn't be in if they were with them still.
Bungie: takes some criticism.
Also Bungie: *PIVOTS TO A LIVE SERVICE GRINDY GAME*
It’s a joke, but I think the mindset Bungie cornered themselves into when they were going for a faster pace update and market is just…..yikes. The literally sacrificed quality for quantity.
So bungies culture encourages no creativity or risk taking? That explains way too much.
I’d rather have a foresaken like content year and then a shadowkeep like year than keeping what we have now over 2 years. PLEASE overdeliver, that’s what made foresaken so incredibly good
Im confused, hopefully someone can help me out, Osiris was the lowest whatever whatever-- and the game was dying. So they released Warmind, another box product. And then they released Forsaken, another box product. So why after releasing their best ever expansion and best year of content did they decide to switch to something that he explained many times is just as if not more taxing on the devs and is not working? I see no reason to switch other than revenue-- which they claim comes last.
becouse seasonal drip feed content makes it so that timmy is more likely to buy that new emote and of course more releases and player spikes than regular dlcs during an expansion
You got it right- he made a bad analogy. They ship many trains / subway lines per year and the franchise is the train station. Going fast is only dealing with small bugs and balance stuff not the main product (the season train/dungeon train/raid train)
There is a reason FFXIV won best on going game 2 years in a row and community. They keep that 'boxed game mindset' making sure that the patches they release are of high quality that you would find in a single player game at a consistant but if needed to delay to get it just right. Bungie is in a scramble to just make 'content' not good content, just empty bad content. That needs to change and its on us as the players to hold them accountable. Making content where its needed, making high quality content, and remembering there is more than just 2 types of players in the community.
They won because they are a completely different game mindset to a looter shooter and has a community that supports them instead of being dicks to them non stop
@@raiderglace8641 when its bungie at the core of the problem? Duality being bugged for months, pvp being in shambles its like they dont play their game sometimes. Why would players support a company that just ignores the community and ignores problems in the game that you could find by just playing the game
Destiny 2 used to be fun. It used to be worthy of being called "good". It used to have stuff that felt relevant to do. Destiny 2 USED TO, it doesn't anymore. That's the problem. The community let Bungie sink the ship by finding new excuses time and time again for the game being even more mediocre each season. Bungie want to get as much money as possible while providing as little effort as possible. This mindset led to bland, empty, irrelevant seasons. As a player you just don't feel engaged, every core aspect of the game NEEDS a huge rework be it leveling, power, items and stats. Destiny gave up on the rpg aspects of the video-game and went full on shooter with no flavor at all
@@raiderglace8641 ??? The community is part right to being dicks to Bungie, its the reality, but the worst thing about this community is how delusional they get with their little hopes that Bungie will fix the damn game while keep feeding them money, getting those shinies at the Eververse to even buy it ALL. Destiny is not a RPG looter shooter anymore, its an "MMO" as they claimed, and with all the dumb stupid things they did to players? Why should I support a product that purposely trying to generate money more than giving a quality product? Bungie is not dumb, they mindset, their choices, their actions speak loudly in the game, and their GDC slides proved it. Oh they want creative freedom from Activision?? Yet they fear about the future and limited creative freedom?? You cannot ignore the problems the game have and expect them to fix when its been a pattern for the past 3 YEARS SINCE SHADOWKEEP.
@@raiderglace8641 Well then you and Barret collectively just described what is needed: a mutual understanding and solid foundation of trust. Neither of these things currently exists between the community towards Bungie and vice versa, and it will remain that way until change is made from both sides to some capacity.
Apathy is definitely where this model is driving me. I've loved Bungie since Halo and Marathon and I hate to see what they've become. Overdelivery is what gets people excited and talking about your game. Falling into complacency is what makes people look for greener pastures.
That’s crazy that they just threw streamers under the bus like that. I would not have returned the amount of times I have if some streamer wasn’t making interesting content.
imagine saying “fuck you” to the people who are keeping your game alive when they themselves can’t. crazy isn’t it bungie
i mean they were talking mad shit at the time you cant deny that
Tbh, they were pretty fucking negative at the time.
Content creators are the only reason why I still play destiny smh
@@humptusdumptus4123 well shit they had evry right to at the time becouse im not sure about now but at the time most content creators were on the same boat as us , fans of destiny but with a bigger microphone
As a former D2 player, you guys should just do what the playerbase did the last time it was sick of Bungie's shit: Stop playing the game. I'll say it now, it is indeed fucked up to threaten some poor dev's income over a videogame, but if you wanna see them really start to listen to what you want to change about the game this is really the only way, worked the last time and gave us Forsaken and it will likely work again.
We won't have to do this, they'll do it to themselves. Each year the month of drought has come earlier and earlier, if they continue following this "player retention" pattern, mid 2023 - end 2023 will be the lowest playercount the game has ever seen. People are already sick of their shit, they physically can't go half a year without consistent player retention.
@@maekoh But that's the thing unless it's a coordinated and planned community strike player numbers will probably jump back up come Lightfall. For something like this to truly work a vast majority of the overall playerbase NEEDS to come together and agree not to play until Bungie is forced to listen. Being backed by Sony now, they'll have both the resources and the added pressure to finally pay attention the wants and needs of the community.
@@immoralboi3158 They had the resources to do it the past few years and refused to. The sony deal gives them added resources yes, but doesn't change that they've had the chance to listen and never have.
The numbers will not jump close to witch queen I can tell you that much. Destiny will never see a launch like WQ again. The amount of people so unhyped and dreading lightfall, the amount of people who've refunded their preorders, the amount of people / content creators / communities that are so bored and tired of the same notion, are not gonna stick around when they realize its the exact same boring shit that happened halfway into this year.
Organizing a strike on an expansion launch is literally impossible. The numbers will go down themselves unless bungie has something planned for 2023.
i still love destiny but i just been getting drained from playing it since most of my friends dont play it no more
7:01 coming from a runner standpoint: if you come out of a 5k race and run the first opening stretch as fast as you can, sprinting, you’re gonna fail. That speed will burn up, and you will fail to win the race in just about every occasion. If you want to truly be successful in the race, you have to be smart. Go out fast if it makes you feel good, but don’t rely on that speed to help you win immediately
that is why crunch usually happens during the last stretch or ego when a friend is about to pass u
But with a live service game there isn't a "last stretch" where you can afford to be exhausted afterwards.
But this also works the other way, because the community is trying to get shit done as fast as they can, which makes it really difficult for bungie to keep up with the amount of content that the community burns through
I miss the old model where they release a massive expansion, release 1 or two lesser expansions, and then repeat the process. I mean yeah it creates content droughts for a year but I would rather have that than boring year round content that feels less exciting and meaningful. I probably had more fun in Warmind or rise of iron than any of the seasons combined (not including forsaken premium content). Rise of Iron was nowhere the size of witch queen yet it is one of my favorite dlc of all time.
In dj peach cobbler channels he has a video covering this about Ubisoft if fits the situation it's called my not review of far cry 6.
The thing bungie devs need to take away from this is that overdelivering is a good thing especially when its not at the cost of themselves. Dont limit their team from putting out their best work when its something they are passionate about. If the team has extra resources let them put it in. It must be hard to be passionate about the content their creating when they have to meet a size deadline instead of a time deadline.
i literally cant imagine having extra time and resources and ideas left in the chamber in a normal season development cycle and just getting told dont do anything with it
@18:19 You're totally right. Bad mindset! If you stopped getting better, you stopped being good!
Really good way of looking at it
Bungie needs to focus on quality again. I'd rather have them give us a forsaken dlc quality release each year instead of seasons of the reused assets.
after the letdown of lightfall, this video is even more correct than it was pre lightfall
Bungie needed Activision to light a fire under their asses. They are way too comfortable!
I love Destiny. It has been the one video game I’ve consistently come back to ever since I first discovered it back in the Taken King days. I hope the messages everyone is giving (and have been giving for years now) finally MAKES IT THROUGH THEIR THICK FUKIN SKULLS
It will for an expansion then it'll go right back to the way it was.
They aren't thick, they have a full business structure around one game. Have you ever tried to make your whole classroom, or office block agree? Think about that. It takes time to change-- a lot of it.
I miss you chaos Dogma
The feeling of overwhelming content to play is what the game needs.... The best feeling ive ever had playing the game is when i first downloaded destiny 2, (in season 11 (i played d1 and returned later for d2)), and had the feeling of "i dont know what to do next" and "where do i start".... It was like being given a giant gummy bear... You dont know where to take your first bite. Right now though, we're being given one single gummy bear a week and their player count reflects that
Edit: it seems some people like the drip feed for some reason
ovwerwhelming GOOD content *
Overwhelming content is not always a good thing. Wish people understood that instead of going with the first thought in their heads
If you look at all the titles, there IS an overwhelming amount of content in the game, I've been doing title stuff to tide me over lately, but the issue is that there's nothing super refreshing about the game right now, and I say that as someone who is enjoying what I've played of the new season. I enjoy the Heist Battlegrounds, but the last two seasons were sooooo dull.
I just think the content needs to be better and fresh
I can't believe they said that they don't want to over deliver lol.
of all my friends whose first Destiny game was Destiny 2, none of them played for more than a month. The only people I know that still play this game are OG D1 players.
New players do not like this game.
Literally. I tried getting 3 different people on. None stayed. They had no idea what to do if I wasn’t on with them holding their hand the whole way. And honestly that experience was annoying in of itself. Only the people that have been with this game for a long time and know how it has changed can keep up with it.
A really cool thing I’ve always thought Bungie could do is add better character creation. Say everybody that already has a guardian see there is better character creation and they wanna change their Guardian to look better, when they roll that out they add a ticket to change your guardian’s appearance and you can change your race, sex, skin, eye, hair color, etc for that ticket. Every year they roll out a new ticket and just some sliders or something better than what we have now or maybe even new races that can change the beginning mission when you wake up in the cosmodrome. Maybe you could be Fallen, or taken, or something other than the 3 races we have now. Ya know just something better than what we have now. They could also expand the lore in many different ways also because of that. Say you don’t wanna use the ticket and wanna keep your character how they are, then dismantle the ticket and you get like 500 bright dust or 300 legendary shards or just something like that. It would also help new light players because now they start off with a good amount of legendary shards or bright dust and can get something from eververse. Idk I just feel it would be a cool and nice slice of life improvement.
As someone who studied game design in college you are absolutely correct. There definition of velocity is run by profit. Good games like Warframe and Fortnite we're great when launched and only got better because the developers not only listened to there community they also made significant upgrades to the game. While I hate forsaken for killing off cayde-6, it was a great expansion with new content and a great story. So far no expansion in my opinion has come close what we got out of forsaken. There are easy ways to avoid burn outs within a team but making them happen is a whole new ball game. As far as console numbers I have seen a significant reduce in console players. I remember where I would have 100 friends playing destiny in a day, now I barely see 1-5. I'm right there with you, I don't see the numbers they are portraying. I love destiny and want to see it succeed but if the developers won't listen to there community they are doomed to fail like so many other games have. Great video!
This video was great. I started playing setiny 4 months ago. It took my eye, my entire friend group downloaded. We spent so much time grinding, doing raids, night falls, we had so much fun doing this stuff. There were some bugs now and then but it was fun. We all bought expansions such as witch queen, forsaken and shadow keep. We did them together and had a blast until 3 days ago. Our group logged on to find us all banned. we contacted staff to get an unban and to find the reason to this ban. We didn't get a response and we still haven't. We had not hacked, or used third party apps. We were all devastated and still are. We spent hours of our time and money that we worked for to find out we were banned and were not told a reason why. I can understand a new season has come out and the game can be buggy but for a multi billion dollar company they should have better services and things in place so this doesn't happen. We do love this game and to find out you can't even get a response from a bot or staff is appalling.
hmm banned hmm i think somone in ur friends group is probably lying AND DOING SHADY SHIT AND U ALL GOT FUCKED
That is crazy and absurd. I hope they do eventually contact you
“Sometimes games can be too bad to be worth fixing” anthem moment
We need new maps, new guns, new places, new faces, new mechanics, new enemies. We need new I cant stand playing the sam thing from year after year. WHATEVER YOU CONSIDER DESTINY 1 IS WHAT I WANT.
Release the 55 minute cut🗣️🗣️
My man this is a talk for other devs at a dev event. Also "what other live service games?” and you only name Fortnite? WOw, Anthem, The Division, Overwatch, Diablo 3, FF14, Valorant, Apex, PUBG. Think about literally any of those for longer than two seconds, your insight doesn't even exist. This talk is about what Bungie did and how it has worked for them, it even ends with an invitation to come apply for a job.
Babe wake up, sweat uploaded his annual “bungie needs to change” video.
Weekly*
@@redungus7176 daily..........
>Sweatcicle when Bungie releases a perfectly reasonable PowerPoint about their philosophy for the game
I noticed a big decline in player numbers and also people getting unhappy with the game the more they've been pushing all this woke nonsense in game and turning osiris and Saint gay that pissed off alot of people
that whole thing makes me sick to my stomach
"but now, we're instead focused on being FAST" That's a load of horse shit, the destiny app and other 3rd party websites like DIM being down for the whole weekend, because "we dont work weekends" is not fast. thats just being lazy.
rewatching this and what im getting is:
bungie is a sweatshop
bloodborne hasnt had any dlc in like 8 years and it's still talked about and hyped to this day so this game is a prime example of justin being wrong
Can't wait to grind for moon weapons in Lightfall, I just love paying for shit I already own again 🙃
Idk what it is about sweat now but it just seems like every other day it’s another clickbait serious face “ Bungie needs to DO BeTer” video, like where is the effort? like these other UA-camrs like Rick khakis and Aztecross, They make some of the best destiny 2 video’s across all charts it seems and then sweat is just trying to milk every bit of destiny 2/bungie drama…do better, No hate ❤.
I honestly used to hate the idea of destiny 3 but I think that d3 is needed for the survival of the franchise. New engine that is actually made for destiny and overall just a fresh start for everything.
I saw a few videos about predatory monetization practices, and it saddens me to see how many scummy things bungie does for money in D2. I want to like the game, but I feel like I need to step back and not play the game anymore. I’ve played for over a year and a half, and all I feel like is that that whole time was a waste.
Besides meeting the hundreds of great fellow D2 players on Discord.
If it's about speed over quality we should have a story mission every week of the season till the very end because honestly the narrative that plays out over 3 months is about a double a4 page script. I could right it over a weekend.
Half of your points In the beginning of your video are addressed further in the power point, crunching, box philosophy, etc.
Will be unsubscribing from your channel. Tired of the complaining.
He complains but continues to enable Bungie by spending money on the game lmaoo
you won’t be missed
Bro has been complaining about the game since I started studying at University.
Note: I graduated.
Unfortunately if they're making money doing what they're doing, they ain't gonna change. I think the player drop finally scared them recently and that's why Joe said they're working on stuff. Monday was "okay guys, we gotta make some changes to your work... by next year we gotta be different"
I hate bungie rn, used to love it for d1. Lightfall was literally the representation of what they thing (velocity>quality)
I'd honestly rather have one huge content drop a year with new and exciting innovative content (more and bigger raids/dungeons etc.) than being drip-fed the most boring content of all time every week of the year just to keep me "engaged". Just overdeliver on a huge yearly drop and let the players play everything in their own time. Maybe that wouldn't work from a business standpoint, I honestly have no idea, but I think it would make the game more enjoyable.
I returned LightFall 2 weeks ago- WitchQueen cost 100 dollars- not even worth 50 bucks- a massive scam- Current witchqueen is at 20 bucks on steam- seems about right.
One thing I really gotta applaud is that Sweat takes what the person who made the slides is saying at face value, he doesn’t misinform or exaggerate or anything but give many good responses, especially about content creators being so crucial to everything
DarksideRoyalty said no
lmao no look at 10:20 or so he literally completely misses the point. the studio wasn’t going bankrupt, they were just losing player count
I literally cringed the whole video hearing him miss the point the whole time.
Joker was right.
@@Manny4g63 clowns are clowns man
If Bungie admits their new IPs are gonna suck on day 1, I ain't buying
Meanwhile, Deep Rock Galactic is a live service and it's still fucking awesome all this time later.
ROCK AND STONE!
I'm so tired of these videos, ya'll need to watch Datto's video on fatigue. No one is making you guys grind for as much as you guys do
So the devs actually do want to make amazing content.. but the suits are preventing them because of "overdelivery".
Incredible. What an apt metaphor for gaming becoming more corporate.
Position is more important than velocity, if the game is in a good position then people will play it. I am not going to buy a mediocre product that will be enhanced eventually, that just seems lazy to me.
I stopped playing the game for a month and I will likely never return.
It was a joy. A bittersweet ending really, I played the whole of D1 and returned mid last year since I thought the game died lol. DSC, last wish and the two dungeons were some of the greatest experiences that I've had in gaming. But some of the worst experiences I've had in gaming have come from destiny like the pinnacle grinds which eat at my time and sense of dread that I missed out on playing the red war or visiting mercury, Io, Titan, mars or any of the previous seasons.
Who will even read this comment? Don't know but I am loving this guilty gear strive game would recommend it.✅✅✅ If you don't like Fighting games I can understand but I know when I grind combos in this game there is no fear of missing out or seasonal grind which is epic
that last clip on apathy, man... the biggest truth.
If you had been part of an old mmo and seen it die, its exactly like that.. not with people bitching but pure silence. It's genuinely sad.
I just feel like cancelling the lightfall pre order. They bungie have always under delivered and cannot see it ever changing
As a wage slave at a labor job I get the overdelivery thing. I out did myself a long time at my job and while it was rewarding at first. My level of work became the new standard which effectively turned something not normal into the new "normal" and no one can keep up, not even me.
ay nice pfp
Homie, they aren't in nearly the same situation.
I love how Sweat doesn’t yell or scream or just straight insult the game during his serious videos. He gives REAL criticism instead of bland, useless, empty insults.
@Ya Mum nice try?? I was just complimenting Sweat for what he does.
@Ya Mum there's better ways to give criticism than bland and useless insults, regardless if they're true or not. mature discussions will always be more productive to both parties involved
Joker still the best. GMDgeek is also great.
@@literallynobody1515 right?
Lol he was borderline screaming at 9:30 about how important he was
They say the value Trust the most, and what they're doing is re-launching removed contents as new contents(including refreshed gears in DUNGEON drop), which I worried when DCV was first announced. Will Neomuna be a repainted Titan New Pacific Arcology? I don't know, I can't trust Bungie anymore when they're reusing a boss in the new dungeon from not even a sunset raid, etc.
I used to play this game for hours on end back when forsaken came out but now I find that I can barely log in to the game and find motivation to want to play it feels like I’ve done the same thing for the last year just different name for the season and different bad guy with the same loop of content
Tl;dr: Bungie is currently running destiny with a broken plan and a broken mindset, and that is causing destiny to start cracking (again)
I love how the ending of the video discusses that apathy is what kills the game because love and hate stem from passion, yet they are actively killing the passion of those working on the game by telling them not to put in the extra work filled by that passion.
I'm slipping into apathy at this point. I do not care at all about the story this season, and I don't care to play the seasonal activities. At this point I just want to hit 100 on my season pass so that I get what I paid for and then I'll be done. I'll raid when my clanmates want to raid, I'll do the dungeon if they need a third, but I have no reason to sign on daily like I used to. At my peak I was playing maybe 5-6 hours a day and still having fun. Now, I'm bored within 45 minutes.
"If the game needs more content, how fast can we make it?"
"If the community has a valid complaint, how quickly can we respond?"
So they're massively failing at their self admitted goals. We're starving for content and every update is full of absolutely stupid decisions that never get addressed.
Then this is the gold mine "First trust, then retention, then revenue" LMAO
They are trying to justify there shity game decisions
We need destiny 3 so bungie can make the proper fundamental changes to the game, I understand that profits are important but so is consumer satisfaction
D3 is NOT happening
We also said that about D2 during D1 lol
If bungie hasn't learned what they're doing wrong (which is VERY evident by this presentation) d3 will do absolutely nothing. It will delay the inevitable for a few years and we'll be right back in the same cycle asking for a d4.
@@maekoh I disagree because D1 lasted 3 years while D2 is still 5 years and going, sunsetting is a must if we want content to stay relevant and not get burnt out using the same old year 1 exotics etc
@@petrofyy6719 sunsetting killed off most of the casual community lmao
I still think D1 is the better game because the quality of the core game was so much healthier. Every strike had 2 to 3 varients, So many more PvP maps, PvP imo was at its funnest in TTK, Age of triumph was literally a quality check patch for all the old raids. It felt like everything that came out in D1 was something I wanted to play (other than the sword quests for the first exotics swords that was bad) but now the entirety of D2 other than dungeons, raids, strikes and DLC campaign feel like the equivilant of those terrible sword quests. Nothing is balanced even PvE is broken power wise where GMs take 8 mins with no gunplay. PvP might as well not exist with how offesnsively bad it is. Everything is a mess atm. because this rush out the door mentality. There is no fixing its just add add add and all of it is stuff Idc to play other than dungeons raids and strikes (and the yearly camapign too ofc). The actual seasonal acitvities everything is based around r terrible and everything else I said was fun about the game gets boring super fast since the core of the game is broken.
Man this is painful and depressing to hear. So sad to realize most developers think this way nowadays and it really reflects the state of modern gaming.
the act man made a real good video talking about why live service games sucks, and i can't help but think about that while reading this doc
@@cheetahofthewind13 act man is a mad spitter of facts
I feel this video is the most realistic reaction and criticism, because a saw another channel and I'm keeping it ambiguous for good reasons (though most might know who because this just came out) and their community feel so slap on the wrist that they're just happy that bungie told them even if they don't agree? And say they care for the game, I'm sorry in my opinion if you're actively restricting your devs creative freedom in fear of negative criticism and don't learn off of it your not doing good in the gaming market because it's about experimenting and learning whats bad, good, and what should be progressing and regressing, I'm taking classes for game art and animation and the basic fundamentals and this is what's always taught "be creative and learn from mistakes, because mistakes are one step closer to a magnum opus" so this sounds so corporate it ruins my excitement to want to join the game industry if my years of learning and work are shut down because I'm paid to work not think for the company's benefit.