Timestamps for mobile users + EXTRA TIPS FOR SINGLE PLAYER BELOW: 0:00 Intro 0:41 The strategic bombing tests explained 1:18 Fighter and Strat bomber design overview 2:19 The variables during the tests 3:38 IC cost/buildings bombed ratio + example 5:04 24/7 Strategic bombing tests 7:11 Tips for defending against strategic bombing in Hearts of Iron 4 8:13 Daytime bombing test 9:27 HOI4 Strategic Night bombing test 11:52 How strategic bombing can change the HOI4 meta 12:29 More strategic bombing tips to bomb effectively in HOI4 FOR SINGLE PLAYER: German & most other AI countries don't bother with building AA or radar stations at all, nor does it bother sending fighters back to protect against your bombers. Therefore: 1. Make your strat bombers as cheap as possible by adding non-strategic air materials and make sure to get the -10% bomber production cost from your focus tree if you're with the USA. Create 4 engine variants as shown in the video, remove the self-sealing tanks as you won't face any opposition. 2. Switch to day & night bombing. I know I said night bombing is best, but that's only if you're facing AA, RADAR, and fighters, which you are not in SP. AI does not damage your bombers at all, you only lose them due to accidents. So day & night when unopposed gives you the most damage. 3. Don't bother with targeting specific buildings, bomb everything. As there are no radars or AA, you will run out of things to bomb if you target fewer buildings, and it seems that dispersed industry offers a big defensive bonus against strat bombers. Still, it only protects factories, so you can bomb everything else with ease (disrupt fuel and rubber production, heavy damage to airports and seaports, reduce infra) and still flood the repair queue, preventing the AI from building anything new + damage some of the civs and mils they build. Mils seem to be more vulnerable to bombing than civs. 4. It can be argued that you don't even need escort fighters as the German AI just does not bother protecting the skies after they're at war with the USSR, so don't divert that much IC into your airforce, use a more balanced approach.
Technically, AI doesn't build radar, AA, infra and lot of building no matter if you play beyond 1948. Really sad, surely it will waste time building forts everywhere when no more slots to build on instead of useful infra/defense things ! (even more when playing millenium dawn or iron curtain because you then have to build lot of infrastructure to improve your economy - 5g antenna, etc)
Which is why you often annex a country and it is still using 1936 infra and you got to build that country yourself cause the AI didn't. Worrying too for logistic not being upgraded at all so you then understand their attrition because they didn't have any built. (not upgrade everything to 5 ofc it takes decades, but lot of time, your train track doesn't encompass your whole country so some parts don't get any supply and yet AI will send units there and lose lot of eq it didn't have to lose - and so got to produce those eq again constantly)
No? This strategy has been well known for years. The reason it's not commonly used is as mentioned, it's flipping expensive and it's almost at the very bottom of your air doctrines. The usability caveat is literally stuck between "The game is ending soon" and "If you can afford this you can spend those resources elsewhere on actually winning the game."
i always wished paradox would implement strategic warfare on a deeper level. strategic bombing blockades and commerce raiding was a big part of ww2. btw this is some "remans paradox" level shit. very informative and no garbage. hope you will make it big. you have a huge potential.
This is why ammo and food should be measurably produced and shipped, instead of being abstracted into supply that magically infinitely spawns from your capital. Destruction of Japanese transports heavily weakened their defensive potential on countless islands the US liberated. Similarly, being able to cut off food and ammo being skipped to the UK could be instrumental for op sealion. As for strategic bombing having more of an effect, we should be able to heavily limit German resource imports from the nordics and so on by strategic bombing, which was an early focus of the tactic during ww2.
@@thelordofcringe if you raid the supply lanes with subs, the japanese troops on island will starve, supply its an abstraction, we can make ammo and other stuffs, but will just complicate production, i think more strategic warfare for subs, supply and bombing is needed, but not micro production...
Just check my single player tips in the pinned comment if you're going against AI, the AI is so stupid that it does not put any defenses nor fighters, so just bomb night and day and bomb everything lol. Still, night bombers will do well in MP.
I had done this in a recent USA game. Night only bombing with the modules to reduce the night operations penalty. The entire Axis ran out of buildings to bomb by 1943.
Again, another truely amazing video! Very informative and simplified. No time wasted and if you wanna just skip to the outcome there are time stamps! 🎉
I love playing with strategic warfare so much. Sometimes I roleplayed using strat bombers and subs to starve the UK literally (without attacking ussr), 0 fuel, 0 convoy, low war support, many factories destroyed, airforce devastated. its pretty funny. I wish paradox use those the strategic potential in the future.
Your tests clearly show that defending against strategic bombing requires a coherent strategy that considers everything from planes to static AA to RADAR. I'm also pleased to see that night bombing has come into its own. A long time ago, night bombing was terrible since there were not modules that mitigated the bombing efficiency.
This is a very underrated channel, with the potential to compete with the more known channels like feedback and others. I can't wait to see you blow up now.
Given the time (Years of content, then diversity of games too for those bored by 1 game only channel - even playing hoi4 lot of world changing mods) it take for those big channels, unlikely to get to that point, the hype passed.
Off the top of my head. the night time bombing one + both day and night. It gets +20% right after rather then +30% Meaning you're comparing if +10% is better then removing half night time. Removing night time by half is much better. Even when you run both because over time you keep inching + from nights. Also when you get some - night time added on then they get to have no - at night which comparatively is way more useful then +10%
I thought so too but my findings were different. Day and night bombing is the least effective way. While it does the most damage, it exposes you to fighting 3 times per day instead of one. For some magical reason, night bombing does disproportionately big damage and only gets exposed 33% of the time to potential damage, making it the most effective.
Good job. You keep this up, and your channel will be must see for HOI players. Looking forward to more drops if they are going to be as informative as your air videos.
Was doing some testing about strat bombers earlier and noticed that the night penalty reduction given from air to ground radar doesn't seem to apply but the extra strat bombing does, worth thinking about if you are gonna try to rush the tech.
What about using Non-Strategic Materials? Aside from the less Aluminum needed, you can get about 8,1% more strat bombers as they cost 7,5% less IC, but they have a reduced defense stat as a result. Can you test that out?
Great video! I've always selected the night path for strat bombing since the benefits seemed so much greater, but I never thought to keep the bombers up only at night- it makes a lot of sense! I wonder if selecting night only also have benefits to CAS if you are a minor fighting a major, since it could reduce their fighters' ability to find your CAS. Your CAS impact would be reduced also, but you wouldn't lose as much of your industrial output.
Yep, that's the effect of the night, but if you want to make any airplane useful at night missions, better to include some modules that reduce the night penalty in addition to any possible reductions from your doctrines.
Great video! Quality is great, keep it up. I tried your strategy and it utterly failed, unfortunately. I spend almost my entire mil ic on making 1000 top-quality bombers and they only destroyed like 10 buildings... still not worth it, in my experience. The bombers I made were even higher quality than the ones you showed in this video, but still massively disappointed me.
I'm not saying you need to make exactly 1000. I was just running a test simulating what a combined bomber command could have. You need to balance things out, I don't know what you made but think about IC cost. Because you can add an extra bomb bay to these but then you need 6 engines instead of 4, making the bomber way too expensive and it actually gives you less strategic bombing per IC spent. Did you face many fighters? It's possible that you got disrupted because you didn't have enough air superiority.
@Sneaky Strats Yeah I definitely made mine way too expensive, but I love the idea of bombing your enemy to the stone age, so i wanted to go for a maximalist bomber game. I had to go for the 6-engine for the reasons you mentioned. I faced almost no enemy fighters, as Germany was balls deep in the Soviet union (I was USA). In the end, I spend around 75% of my mil ic making bombers, and the maximum amount of german civs I had bombed at one time was around 3%. I won't exclude the possibility that I did something wrong (its very possible i made an error that im not accounting for), but from my personal experience, it isn't worth it.
@Leontes, ok, I ran a USA SP game specifically against the AI to see what was going on. Here are my tips: AI does not bother with building AA or radar stations at all, nor does it bother sending fighters back to protect against your bombers. Therefore: 1. Make your strat bombers as cheap as possible by adding non-strategic air materials and make sure to get the -10% bomber production cost from your focus tree. Create 4 engine variants as discussed previously. 2. Switch to day & night bombing. I know I said night bombing is best, but that's only if you're facing AA, RADAR, and fighters, which you are not in SP. AI does not damage your bombers at all, you only lose them due to accidents. So day & night when unopposed gives you the most damage. 3. Don't bother with targeting specific buildings, bomb everything. As there are no radars or AA, you will run out of things to bomb if you target fewer buildings, and it seems that dispersed industry offers a big defensive bonus against strat bombers. Still, it only protects factories, so you can bomb everything else with ease and still flood the repair queue, preventing the AI from building anything new + damage some of the civs and mils they build. Mils seem to be more vulnerable to bombing than civs. 4. It can be argued that you don't even need escort fighters as the AI just does not bother protecting the skies after they're at war with the USSR, so don't divert that much into your airforce, use a more balanced approach. I hope this helps and thanks for your comment, I'll add these tips to the pinned comment for people who play single player.
@Sneaky Strats good ideas, I will give that a try! So, what are your plans for the channel? Are you going to make guides coving all types of hoi-related things? You've got all the right components to do well: great editing, humor, interesting/informative content. Your channel is new, but it seems like you have experience doing this sort of thing.
@@leontes No experience, whatsoever. Just learning how to do better each and every time. I love HOI4 and plan to continue making guides, but I'll also do parody videos as well just because it's super fun for me. Be on the lookout for the next vid, a certain 20-century US president will be the narrator.
Bro I was just looking for more HOI4 content after consuming everything on UA-cam, God answered my prayers 🙏🏻 (I’ve been away from my PC since the start of the school year so I need to feed my addiction somehow) 😅 You earned yourself a subscriber lol
Liked and subscribed, very high quality research and good presentation. Would be happy to see this kind of math and research applied to other PDX games, or strategy in general.
Great video. You earned a subscriber. Would love to see more about strat bombing on this channel. I saw recently a test that start bombing per bomber is capped at a 100. So it only makes sense to have 3 large bomb bays per bomber. With that you can reduce the cost of them. Is this still the case? Furthermore I would be interested to see how air defence with additional armor and self sealing fuel tanks in the design influence the IC costs
It's capped at 100 from the modules that you have, but you can increase it with +strategic bombing modifiers from doctrines etc. 4 bomb bays delivers less than 100 per bomber. Thanks for subscribing!
bombers will never be cheap, but the pain you can cause is extreme and can outright allow the Chinese ai to beat competent Japan players if they cannot stop your bombers
Depends on your country and what you want to achieve. Motorized are good if you can't really afford tanks, something I do with France. Motorized are also good defensively, so you can use them to protect created encirclements before you close them and keep rushing with your tanks. Also pure motorized divisions are typically faster than tank divisions so you can exploit breakthroughs.
Truly amazing video. This has come in very handy for me since I was trying to figure out the best way to strategic bomb while spending the least amount of resources possible (for mp). And during my tests for a moment it did felt they weren't worth it in any scenario, but alas, you convinced to keep my faith. The video doesn't cover it, but during my testing, going operation intregity might be better for strategic bombing due the -50% visibility modifier while strategic bombing. I'm unsure how the math for detection works (since the enemy can easily get 100% detection in the airzone with cheer numbers of fighters, according to the UI). But weirdly enough, the strategic bombers still took around half the casulties compared to going strategic destruction (may even bomb unescorted because the enemy can't intercept them, which is funny). There are a few things I'm still wondering, for example is it possible to make a strategic bombing that can fly unescorted? Are turrets worth agaisnt MP fighters (i know SP ones they do be good), or are they are just wasted IC to score barely any kills. Despite going reducing casulties in operation integrity, i dont know if its worth the loss of strategic bombing damage. Does the night penalty matter for strategic bombing? During my testing i came across an interesting thing, the night penalty for strategic bombing is accuracy. But what exactly does that mean and does? Does it affect the damage of strategic bombing? When I tested it didnt look like it did, instead it was spreading the damage the factories. Having night reductions penalties seemed to focus the damage on the buildings you bombed already. I'm unsure if it did other things, like fiding the buildings or smth like that. So I remain unsure if it does something. Well im off to watch your ultimate air guide ;).
I also tried operational integrity as per an earlier suggestion and it is effective. I think it came up to 165 IC per building bombed on the most difficult level, which isn't as effective as night strategic destruction path, but still more than respectable considering you get the best doctrine for fighters. In terms of modules, it might be better to skip the turrets as you can leave your fighters to protect you in the air. You can do unprotected bombing in single player, but I think you will lose too much IC if you face a good bomber defense in multi. Thanks for watching the vid!
I wonder how Air-Air Radar on dedicated Heavy Fighters interceptors would alter this equation. It's basically the anti-night bombing build. On a related note--did they ever fix the broken doctrine "Fighter Escorts" in the Day Bombing path? It was supposed to make day bombing less dangerous, but for the longest time it did literally nothing as the stat it was supposed to be buffing (escort efficiency) was removed from fighters.
Yep, you can build dedicated night fighters to better counter this, something that you should tell anyone who tries to ban this strat in MP. As far as escort efficiency goes, it still does nothing
Dedicated night fighters played a large role in WW2. The RAF’s night fighting capability was negligible at the start of the the Blitz, but by early 1941, the Beaufighter was introduced and their mission efficiency doubled every month until May and the Luftwaffe ceased its bombing operations. The RAF was able to transition onto the offensive, and the Germans were roughly 2 years behind in their night fighting technology. They relied heavily on ground based radar and support to guide interceptors, in locally assigned regions. The RAF was able to overwhelm specific areas. The Americans decided to conduct their bombing raids during the day, with heavily armed bombers _(‘fortresses)_ with more range _(.50 BMG)_ than the German interceptors. The night fighters were pushed into daytime service, on the already stretched thin air forces. The heavy investment in the night fighters became a point of contention amongst the Germans. Aircraft and operations on the eastern front had to be withdrawn to defend Germany from the air war.
thing is that bombers destroy more if you spread them out, as it's easier to destroy 1 our of 5 than 4 out of 5. sending 100 bombers with small escort on a round-robin for a week, dropped for a week in each region you need bombed.
It's a bit more complex than that. Since the video I've learned that bombers also damage more buildings in areas closer to your home airport and that there's a thing that reduces bombing damage the more buildings you have bombed, which I think is what you're pointing at. In any case the test was a good indicator as the number of buildings and area bombed was the same. You can expect better results if you bomb more areas as you say.
I also reject the premise of the video. The problem with strat bombing isn’t the relative cost of lost planes to damage inflicted (as the Allies you should have an IC advantage to ‘waste’ in bad trades). The problem is the opportunity cost of the Ic used to produce strat bombers. Those factories could produce CAS, tanks, guns etc to actually take victory points and win the war. With the way peace negotiations bias in favour of land combat damage and occupation it makes strat bombing a side show. The only value is to ‘tap’ a distant puppet (looking at you Dutch East Indies) to make sure they are in the peace treaty as they have suffered damage.
I don't argue that strat bombing is expensive, but to call it useless is not accurate. What happens if you struggle to secure a beachhead in mainland Europe? How can you ensure that the Germans don't overwhelm the Soviets in terms of air power on the Eastern Front? Strat bombing is a way to force the Axis to respond to you or suffer the consequences. Also, you can't have an unlimited number of CAS or bombers attacking ground troops as there is a thing such as "air combat width," which does not apply to strategic bombing.
@@balkan-cowboy where did I call I useless? I said opportunity cost. How many more tank divisions can you push out sooner without strat bombers? Think about it.
And how many tank divisions can you chuck in France or mainland Europe in the first/mid stages of a landing, god forbid Africa or Asia, before it turns to a logistical nightmare? Can tanks damage airports from thousands of kilometers away so you can effectively neutralize an enemy air force and have complete control of the sky? How much IC would that save? What about disrupting synthetic rubber and oil factories? Strat bombers are expensive, they are certainly not for every country, but they have their use, which is why they were built by the USA and UK. Of course, with HoI4 you can't expect an accurate representation of reality, but I've displayed a way of protecting your expensive planes while doing more than enough damage to make the Axis squirm. And, for the record, I did a UA-cam search or five before making this video, nothing even remotely covering the topic of nighttime bombing showed up.
I liked the video but I think it would be better if you compared the ic lost by germany to the ic lost by the uk to see if they are actually worth it or not. Right now you showed how they can improve but its still not sure if its worth it or not (even if it seems so with that big of an increase it'd be nice to see proof). Maybe a follow up video? Either way keep it up I liked this video, you earnt a sub!
It's quite hard to calculate what Germany lost. They've lost fighters, fine, but how much IC a country loses depends on what they've built and what you've destroyed. And it's kind of hard to calculate what's the impact of a building being disabled for an X amount of time. It's an excellent suggestion but I have no idea how to take everything into account on the GER side :D
@@balkan-cowboy what about do two runs, one without strat bombers and one with (everything else including fighters equal, then calculate the total ic value that germany produced in each of them from their mils. then compare this to the ic taken up to make the strat bombers. it does depend on what they've built and what you've destroyed but so does stuff in this video? i think it would be nice just to get an approximate answer even if it varies heavily. and you can always do a few different setups too.
Nice, looks like ill have to play the Netherlands soon, as they also get a night reduction advisor. Do you maybe know how and if the strategic bombing visability in the operational integrety tree works? (compared to the day/night bombing) Edit: what about giving the heavy fighters the radio navigation also because they will be fighting at night only anyways? and replacing the heavy mg turret x1 with a 2x light mg turrets since the stats are the same but will save 1 weight so the plane is a little bit faster.
Fantastic question! Also just saw your edit. So, it turns out Operational integrity is almost as good as SD on night bombing IF you leave the strat bombers on night bombing only. The ratio for Operational integrity is 118, while on SD with NB was 111 (level 4 difficulty against radar, AA, fighters). I also ran 1 test when I didn't include the bomber visibility doctrine and the ratio came to 130 IC per building bombed. So it does do something, and you can bomb pretty well with strat bombers if you run the OI doctrine path. Also ran a test with the first doctrine in Battlefield Support and had a ratio of 145. It turns out that just putting your bombers and fighters on night missions seems to have the biggest effect, doctrines can help out but the difference is not as dramatic as I initially assumed. I've also thought about night fighters as there are also modules that are for night fighting, perhaps included as a counter to the potentially OP power of night strat bombing. I will make a new video because I also had a really good question on my multi-role video from another viewer, which led me to another discovery. I'll also check how TAC bombers perform on strat bombing if you stack some modules there, as they are twice as cheap, so they might be really effective as well.Thank you for the smart questions, I appreciate that the small amount of people that watch me also have an in-depth interest in the game, you helped me learn new stuff, so I'll give you a shoutout :) Edit: TAC bombers with same tech and maxed out Strat stat costs 70 IC, which is 45% cheaper than the bomber I used. Ran a test with them, and their ratio was 166 IC lost per building mombed, but they also provide nice ground attack value to the mix, so they are also a quite good alternative to strat bombers if you want to build a jack of all trades bomber that can do it all - naval strikes, ground attack, strat bombing.
No, it's only buildings bombed but they did lose a lot of fighters. You can argue that commiting the axis air force in Multi to defend is enough to make strat bombing effective. If you're playing a game where strat bombing is disallowed you can always do logistical strikes in Belgium to draw out their air force 🐸
Problem, in any situation where strat bombing becomes viable it will be banned in multiplayer. This is because of the self spiraling loop. You destroy their civs so they can't build mils to build fighters to stop you. Eventually they can't really do anything.
@@balkan-cowboy Yeah you could say that. However this strat pun intended is as good as space Marines used to be. The limiter being that they were of course too expensive vs their output. It doesn't matter how good you are at building AA or fighters. The mechanic of this strat is so powerful it will just be banned again. You bomb civs-mils=less fighters and aa as well as a chunk of their air tide up repelling you when they could be pushing on the Eastern Front.
For me, something that's overpowered means that it doesn't have a counter. Strat bombers have a counter - AA, radar, fighters. Heck, you even have modules like air to air radar so you can build dedicated night fighters to counter this strategy. Plus if you go dispersed industry, it is very hard to bomb civilian factories. I obviously can't control what people get salty about and decide to ban, but strategic bombing is not overpowered as you can counter it as long as you think and invest. In the loading screen, you have a quote: The Germans entered the war under the childish delusion that they were going to bomb everyone and they are not going to get bombed themselves. I have no further arguments 🐸
I know this is a video made over a year ago. Nonetheless, I have an inquiry. Do you think the overperformance of nightbombing could be related to your testing happening in winter? I am reasonably certain that at least for land combat Paradox actually has different daylight hours (i.e. in europe land night attack boni are worth less in summer). I may tske saturday and do a daylight vs nighttime bombing test in summer and winter. Perhaps the "two air ticks at day, one at night" thing is not as true as it always was held to be.
I've always found it hard when playing as the U.K. to get enough IC to produce the army and airforce I need, I usually try to build enough fighters to help out France and then hold off the blitz later so I only have enough time to ever build a small Tac Bomber fleet which I tend to use to just harass German supply lines but I always throw some machine guns on my bombers to help out if the blitz gets really bad, anyway, and sorry for the rambling comment but you seem like you have a good grasp of the stats, and I'm useless at this stuff, so, is there any way you would consider looking onto the viability of using tac bombers as interceptors and if it's a waste of time with that spreadsheet wizardry of yours? (I usually go with 2 bomb bays, 2 heavy MG and then self sealing and some mix of armour or bomb sights/ electronics) Either way, great video dude :) Edit: Also I'm pretty sure the MG's help air defence or something so it makes the bombers harder to shoot down but again, I'm not a stats guy, more of a "throw everything at the wall and see what sticks" aporach to this game
It's best to stay specialized for the most part, build fighters to protect your bombers, keep the bombers for pure ground attack. In general, CAS is better as you can cover more fronts, but if you're with the UK for example and range is an issue, then TACs are viable. Also there is this thing called air combat width, I explain this in more detail in my big guide, check it out if you'd like
In the video I didn't get multiple radars, I only advised to get multiple radars in MP if you fear strat bombing, as they only need to bomb 1 building to remove your coverage for most of the country. So against a player who is serious with their bombers, you probably would need a second/third radar near your industry to offset the potential loss of coverage from 1 bombed radar
Just a question for you-------------> one thing you did not address is.............attaching CAS and fighters directly to your troops. How badly does this effect their performance if at all? It sure makes it a lot easier to move everything around, although I did notice when sending troops over seas, it appears to take a while for the aircraft to show up. Normally, I attach 100 fighters and 100 CAS to each general on their normal mission, (air superiority for fighters, close air support for CAS) then move in more planes to airfields as needed in the theatre. Still, I have little idea if the attached airwings are following what they are supposed to do. Another thing I noticed is that if an airbase is not close to the troops when they go overseas, (usually in Africa) the airports remains empty, even if the airbase is under my, or my allies control. Can you address this?
You're right, I will have to explore this mechanic more in-depth and I could make a video about it. I played with this function when it was introduced but back then, I noticed it wasn't doing a great job so I stuck with assigning Missions manually and repositioning accordingly. They could have improved it somehow, though, so it's worth a test.
I feel like Strat bombers are only good for nations that have the resources/industry to make a lot, and I mean at least like 2-3k of them by 39-40 *cough USA *cough however I just never end up playing the Nation(s) capable of doing so
In 24 hours you do two day sorties and one at night. I see what you mean but then I ran the test over a month or something, so the total damage done by night is compared to the damage done by day and 24h and it is still incredibly high despite flying only 33% of the time.
3:55 why this diagram does not work with me? Even if I bomb enemy buildings it says "enemy buildings bombed 0". But if I save and play as the enemy the buildings in this region are destroyed.
@@balkan-cowboy it is shown how many planes I have lost, how many troops were bombed, the logistic strikes, but not the number of bombed enemy buildings. It always says "0"
I wonder if the massive differences can be accounted to the air ground radar and radio navigation. Would removing those make the planes cheaper while being just as capable on daytime bombing?
The majority of the cost for the airplane comes from the airframe and 4 engines. These modules are not that expensive in comparison, but I guess by removing them you can lower your daytime bombing costs somewhat
I noticed you had an average sort of bomber template. Fair enough. Historically wise, is it better to go for A USAAF style of daylight raids with bombers packed to the gills with armour and heavy MGs with Heavy MG fighters or is it better to go for an RAF night time bomber stream of a few cannon armed night heavy fighters with electronic aids as escort with bombers with max bombloads, a light MG or two, and all the electronic aids for night work that you can?
Well, historical and optimal models are two different things. And it depends what are you up against. If you're against the AI, just build a crap ton of strat bombers, make them as cheap as possible with non-strategic mats, stick with 4 engines, don't bother with any air defense or attack. Leave your heavy fighters to protect you, and do day and night bombing. The AI is so bad that it won't oppose you or any opposition will be negligible. In MP where you're likely to face resistance, do night bombing and maybe invest in air defense but no air attack on your bombers. Fighters are the ones who fight fighters.
You can't completely destroy a building but you can put it out of commission until it's repaired again. If you're really effective with strategic bombing, you can flood the repair queue so bad that most industry and buildings are not working and can't be repaired fast enough, which sends one's economy and war effort to the shadow realm.
@@hagalathekido You mean how much IC damage does a bombing run do? That's an excellent question, but my current understanding of the game is not broad enough to answer it. You have a lot of variables here, here's some off the top of my head: what type and how many strat bombers you send, are the bombing missions being disrupted and if yes by how much, what buildings are you damaging (each has a different IC cost), how fast are they being repaired and how does increased repair speed affect that, and, most importantly, how can we quantify and calculate the lost IC or service that a building provides from being disabled for an X amount of time. I'm not even sure if a game developer will be able to answer you on that one 😁 what we have in-game is a simplistic buildings bombed stat that I used so we can find out how can we lose the least amount of airplanes while keeping buildings bombed high, that's what the ratio in the video tells us. Still, thanks for your question, if I can figure it out with some sort of test I'll make a video about it.
I would also like to ask you about supply, lol. SCENARIO------------->You are playing USA, and you and the UK invade fortress Europe at Cherborg. You see the supply going in to that navalbase, so logic says at 1st chance, you increase the size of the naval base, yes? when you start taking supply hubs, you just can't click on them as you do in your core territory and build railroads out, so you are forced to manually increase the railroads which is time consuming. But then, as you expand out into Europe, when you check supply, you now notice that your supply lines are now going to a different port, and the naval base and railroads you have expanded are sometimes useless, or at least some of them are. Is there any way to FORCE where your supplies are sent so you can expand out, in this manner making your infrustructure improvements far more reliable? I have asked several people this question while searching for an answer, and all seem to be as lost as I am on this.
Sorry to disappoint you my friend, no idea as well. I also have around 1500 hours in game, it's just that I kinda hyper focused on air and I now know more than most on this topic. I will make a supply video eventually and I'll do my best to answer your questions. There are a hell of a lot rabbit holes in the game that I've yet to dive into, I'd rather be honest with you than tell you BS like some other UA-camrs. What I found is that the blind lead the blind in Paradox games, everything is complex and barely anyone dives deep enough to truly understand. I will get to it, but there's a lot more I need to learn until I become a Sensei. Probably hoi5 will come out until I figure everything about this game 🤣
Ok, I'll bite. The specific variant he is proposing costs 118.50 IC, which is about 7% cheaper than mine at 127.5 IC. Yet according to Cloak's tests, the 96 strategic bomber does an average of 53.5 damage across the 2 zones, which is 14% greater than the 46 damage the bomber with 70 strategic bombing. 14% more damage vs 7% cost are returns that are not diminishing in my book. And, miraculously, with 4 bomb bays you get 70 base strat bombing as a stat, which then can be augmented to close to 100. Therefore, I hit no cap, real or not, with this model, which sits at 98 strat bombing with SD air doctrine tree, making it slightly better than Cloak's tests.
@@balkan-cowboy, coincidentally it was also a way to force a response in real life. The goal of the USAAF (and allied air forces in general) was to devour the Luftwaffle and taking bites out of German cities did wonders for baiting them out, destroyed factories were a bonus. (Note gjay this applies after the early failures of the bombing campaign when the objective had been to expand the Neander valley across the Reich.)
Lol if u have industry for so many expensive planes and germany is so broke that they can only trow so few at it, war is lost already and whatever u do dont really matter😂 Thats only for rp purposes
The test is not flawless yet it was equalized for all scenarios tested. The takeaway is that night time bombing is much more efficient than the other two, and it doesn't matter how many fighters or defenses the enemy has. Your losses will scale proportionally, but night time bombing will still incur the lowest losses.
@@balkan-cowboy i havent intended to criticize that. Its only that strat bombers make no sense as if you have such a big advantadge in industry over the enemy, you can simply roflstomp it directly. But loved the videos, keep the good work mate. Cheers👍
I get what you mean, but I still kinda like strat bombers as they have a unique way of ruining someone's game. Not sure how it holds up against really good players, but it could surprise someone.
@@balkan-cowboy uhh, as youre replying here anyway, im playing a game as Denmark, democratic but independant. Any tips about how the heck i get rid of damned uboats? German fleet is around me, so going to sea with ships isnt a possibility (altho im taking allied old boats via pp atm) im more inclined to use planes. Atm im using a kind of "naval fighter bomber" its a 1940 plane with engine 3, one torp, hv machineguns and flutuators and 1x armored seat and 1 light mg turret, would you suggest a diff design?
@@FelipeScheuermann1982 1 torpedo is usually all you need. The only thing I'd suggest is to build radar and/or put some of the naval bombers on naval patrol, this will allow you to find ships and subs much easier. Aside from that destroyers are the most effective way when you add sonar/depth charges, but might not be possible given your circumstances.
Timestamps for mobile users + EXTRA TIPS FOR SINGLE PLAYER BELOW:
0:00 Intro
0:41 The strategic bombing tests explained
1:18 Fighter and Strat bomber design overview
2:19 The variables during the tests
3:38 IC cost/buildings bombed ratio + example
5:04 24/7 Strategic bombing tests
7:11 Tips for defending against strategic bombing in Hearts of Iron 4
8:13 Daytime bombing test
9:27 HOI4 Strategic Night bombing test
11:52 How strategic bombing can change the HOI4 meta
12:29 More strategic bombing tips to bomb effectively in HOI4
FOR SINGLE PLAYER:
German & most other AI countries don't bother with building AA or radar stations at all, nor does it bother sending fighters back to protect against your bombers. Therefore:
1. Make your strat bombers as cheap as possible by adding non-strategic air materials and make sure to get the -10% bomber production cost from your focus tree if you're with the USA. Create 4 engine variants as shown in the video, remove the self-sealing tanks as you won't face any opposition.
2. Switch to day & night bombing. I know I said night bombing is best, but that's only if you're facing AA, RADAR, and fighters, which you are not in SP. AI does not damage your bombers at all, you only lose them due to accidents. So day & night when unopposed gives you the most damage.
3. Don't bother with targeting specific buildings, bomb everything. As there are no radars or AA, you will run out of things to bomb if you target fewer buildings, and it seems that dispersed industry offers a big defensive bonus against strat bombers. Still, it only protects factories, so you can bomb everything else with ease (disrupt fuel and rubber production, heavy damage to airports and seaports, reduce infra) and still flood the repair queue, preventing the AI from building anything new + damage some of the civs and mils they build. Mils seem to be more vulnerable to bombing than civs.
4. It can be argued that you don't even need escort fighters as the German AI just does not bother protecting the skies after they're at war with the USSR, so don't divert that much IC into your airforce, use a more balanced approach.
Technically, AI doesn't build radar, AA, infra and lot of building no matter if you play beyond 1948. Really sad, surely it will waste time building forts everywhere when no more slots to build on instead of useful infra/defense things ! (even more when playing millenium dawn or iron curtain because you then have to build lot of infrastructure to improve your economy - 5g antenna, etc)
Which is why you often annex a country and it is still using 1936 infra and you got to build that country yourself cause the AI didn't. Worrying too for logistic not being upgraded at all so you then understand their attrition because they didn't have any built. (not upgrade everything to 5 ofc it takes decades, but lot of time, your train track doesn't encompass your whole country so some parts don't get any supply and yet AI will send units there and lose lot of eq it didn't have to lose - and so got to produce those eq again constantly)
HOI4, the only game where no matter how much I learn and improve I'll still encounter a random essay that will make me feel like a complete rookie
I didnt even know you could switch the times of bombing💀
Dude, I don't usually say this, but this guy has serious potential for content making
No? This strategy has been well known for years. The reason it's not commonly used is as mentioned, it's flipping expensive and it's almost at the very bottom of your air doctrines. The usability caveat is literally stuck between "The game is ending soon" and "If you can afford this you can spend those resources elsewhere on actually winning the game."
@@Coecoo I'm talking about this guy's ability to make UA-cam videos, not hoi4 bomber tactics
@@SanderDoesThings Yes because the dated and crooked subject they decide to base the entire video on is totally not applicable to what i'm saying.
@@Coecoo your ability to read and comprehend information is astounding, you should be a laywer
@@Coecoo he explains things interestingly and it's enough for me, and I assume the majority of us
i always wished paradox would implement strategic warfare on a deeper level. strategic bombing blockades and commerce raiding was a big part of ww2.
btw this is some "remans paradox" level shit. very informative and no garbage. hope you will make it big. you have a huge potential.
This is why ammo and food should be measurably produced and shipped, instead of being abstracted into supply that magically infinitely spawns from your capital. Destruction of Japanese transports heavily weakened their defensive potential on countless islands the US liberated. Similarly, being able to cut off food and ammo being skipped to the UK could be instrumental for op sealion.
As for strategic bombing having more of an effect, we should be able to heavily limit German resource imports from the nordics and so on by strategic bombing, which was an early focus of the tactic during ww2.
@@thelordofcringe i totally agree
@@thelordofcringe if you raid the supply lanes with subs, the japanese troops on island will starve, supply its an abstraction, we can make ammo and other stuffs, but will just complicate production, i think more strategic warfare for subs, supply and bombing is needed, but not micro production...
Bomber Harris can rest in peace knowing that strat bombing is viable in hoi4 again.
Alright, this is actually massive. I'll try a strat bomber build next game.
Just check my single player tips in the pinned comment if you're going against AI, the AI is so stupid that it does not put any defenses nor fighters, so just bomb night and day and bomb everything lol. Still, night bombers will do well in MP.
@@balkan-cowboy Oh, I’m thinking of trying this in a semi-meta MP lobby
I had done this in a recent USA game. Night only bombing with the modules to reduce the night operations penalty. The entire Axis ran out of buildings to bomb by 1943.
Again, another truely amazing video! Very informative and simplified. No time wasted and if you wanna just skip to the outcome there are time stamps! 🎉
I love playing with strategic warfare so much. Sometimes I roleplayed using strat bombers and subs to starve the UK literally (without attacking ussr), 0 fuel, 0 convoy, low war support, many factories destroyed, airforce devastated. its pretty funny. I wish paradox use those the strategic potential in the future.
Would be cool if you had also included a step with 1 AA, just to compare 1 AA to no AA, but still great job man
Your tests clearly show that defending against strategic bombing requires a coherent strategy that considers everything from planes to static AA to RADAR. I'm also pleased to see that night bombing has come into its own. A long time ago, night bombing was terrible since there were not modules that mitigated the bombing efficiency.
This is a very underrated channel, with the potential to compete with the more known channels like feedback and others. I can't wait to see you blow up now.
Thanks, mane! You officially reserved an early spot.
Given the time (Years of content, then diversity of games too for those bored by 1 game only channel - even playing hoi4 lot of world changing mods) it take for those big channels, unlikely to get to that point, the hype passed.
i usually just do what i have buffs for, germany has a lot of boost for fighters and cas, usa gets heavy fighter way ahead of time
I agree :) certain countries are stronger than others in some areas, that's why major powers had different approaches to the air war in ww2
Off the top of my head. the night time bombing one + both day and night. It gets +20% right after rather then +30% Meaning you're comparing if +10% is better then removing half night time. Removing night time by half is much better. Even when you run both because over time you keep inching + from nights. Also when you get some - night time added on then they get to have no - at night which comparatively is way more useful then +10%
I thought so too but my findings were different. Day and night bombing is the least effective way. While it does the most damage, it exposes you to fighting 3 times per day instead of one. For some magical reason, night bombing does disproportionately big damage and only gets exposed 33% of the time to potential damage, making it the most effective.
Good job. You keep this up, and your channel will be must see for HOI players. Looking forward to more drops if they are going to be as informative as your air videos.
Was doing some testing about strat bombers earlier and noticed that the night penalty reduction given from air to ground radar doesn't seem to apply but the extra strat bombing does, worth thinking about if you are gonna try to rush the tech.
Yeah, I'd even argue for rushing the 42 radar as version 2 of the module is also awesome 😁
No overly long intro no off topic no bs amazing video man keep up the good stuff!
Thank you kindly
Wow, thanks dude. I was really interested in this, but didn't want to spend time for tests. Glad you did all that researches and share results
What about using Non-Strategic Materials? Aside from the less Aluminum needed, you can get about 8,1% more strat bombers as they cost 7,5% less IC, but they have a reduced defense stat as a result. Can you test that out?
Will do, I also like that module a lot :)
Hope you are still making videos about HO4, just now getting into this game
Great video! I've always selected the night path for strat bombing since the benefits seemed so much greater, but I never thought to keep the bombers up only at night- it makes a lot of sense!
I wonder if selecting night only also have benefits to CAS if you are a minor fighting a major, since it could reduce their fighters' ability to find your CAS. Your CAS impact would be reduced also, but you wouldn't lose as much of your industrial output.
Yep, that's the effect of the night, but if you want to make any airplane useful at night missions, better to include some modules that reduce the night penalty in addition to any possible reductions from your doctrines.
What does the future hold for this channel? I hope to see a lot more. Especially navy and tanks and such
logged into YT just to drop a like for this video. thanks for sharing
Great video! Quality is great, keep it up. I tried your strategy and it utterly failed, unfortunately. I spend almost my entire mil ic on making 1000 top-quality bombers and they only destroyed like 10 buildings... still not worth it, in my experience. The bombers I made were even higher quality than the ones you showed in this video, but still massively disappointed me.
I'm not saying you need to make exactly 1000. I was just running a test simulating what a combined bomber command could have. You need to balance things out, I don't know what you made but think about IC cost. Because you can add an extra bomb bay to these but then you need 6 engines instead of 4, making the bomber way too expensive and it actually gives you less strategic bombing per IC spent. Did you face many fighters? It's possible that you got disrupted because you didn't have enough air superiority.
@Sneaky Strats Yeah I definitely made mine way too expensive, but I love the idea of bombing your enemy to the stone age, so i wanted to go for a maximalist bomber game. I had to go for the 6-engine for the reasons you mentioned. I faced almost no enemy fighters, as Germany was balls deep in the Soviet union (I was USA). In the end, I spend around 75% of my mil ic making bombers, and the maximum amount of german civs I had bombed at one time was around 3%. I won't exclude the possibility that I did something wrong (its very possible i made an error that im not accounting for), but from my personal experience, it isn't worth it.
@Leontes, ok, I ran a USA SP game specifically against the AI to see what was going on. Here are my tips:
AI does not bother with building AA or radar stations at all, nor does it bother sending fighters back to protect against your bombers. Therefore:
1. Make your strat bombers as cheap as possible by adding non-strategic air materials and make sure to get the -10% bomber production cost from your focus tree. Create 4 engine variants as discussed previously.
2. Switch to day & night bombing. I know I said night bombing is best, but that's only if you're facing AA, RADAR, and fighters, which you are not in SP. AI does not damage your bombers at all, you only lose them due to accidents. So day & night when unopposed gives you the most damage.
3. Don't bother with targeting specific buildings, bomb everything. As there are no radars or AA, you will run out of things to bomb if you target fewer buildings, and it seems that dispersed industry offers a big defensive bonus against strat bombers. Still, it only protects factories, so you can bomb everything else with ease and still flood the repair queue, preventing the AI from building anything new + damage some of the civs and mils they build. Mils seem to be more vulnerable to bombing than civs.
4. It can be argued that you don't even need escort fighters as the AI just does not bother protecting the skies after they're at war with the USSR, so don't divert that much into your airforce, use a more balanced approach.
I hope this helps and thanks for your comment, I'll add these tips to the pinned comment for people who play single player.
@Sneaky Strats good ideas, I will give that a try! So, what are your plans for the channel? Are you going to make guides coving all types of hoi-related things? You've got all the right components to do well: great editing, humor, interesting/informative content. Your channel is new, but it seems like you have experience doing this sort of thing.
@@leontes No experience, whatsoever. Just learning how to do better each and every time. I love HOI4 and plan to continue making guides, but I'll also do parody videos as well just because it's super fun for me. Be on the lookout for the next vid, a certain 20-century US president will be the narrator.
Just saw this video in my recommended, good video!
Bro I was just looking for more HOI4 content after consuming everything on UA-cam, God answered my prayers 🙏🏻 (I’ve been away from my PC since the start of the school year so I need to feed my addiction somehow) 😅
You earned yourself a subscriber lol
Thanks, mane. Watch my 1 hour guide if you're that addicted lol. It's worth it!
Liked and subscribed, very high quality research and good presentation. Would be happy to see this kind of math and research applied to other PDX games, or strategy in general.
Great video. You earned a subscriber. Would love to see more about strat bombing on this channel. I saw recently a test that start bombing per bomber is capped at a 100. So it only makes sense to have 3 large bomb bays per bomber. With that you can reduce the cost of them. Is this still the case?
Furthermore I would be interested to see how air defence with additional armor and self sealing fuel tanks in the design influence the IC costs
It's capped at 100 from the modules that you have, but you can increase it with +strategic bombing modifiers from doctrines etc. 4 bomb bays delivers less than 100 per bomber. Thanks for subscribing!
You sir, just earned a sub!
Thank you kindly 🌚
I wish I had this DLC but everyone says it's to expensive for the limited content you get
Great video, good content. Gonna give this a try! A new upcoming meta man! Keep it up! :)
bombers will never be cheap, but the pain you can cause is extreme and can outright allow the Chinese ai to beat competent Japan players if they cannot stop your bombers
Depends on your country and what you want to achieve. Motorized are good if you can't really afford tanks, something I do with France. Motorized are also good defensively, so you can use them to protect created encirclements before you close them and keep rushing with your tanks. Also pure motorized divisions are typically faster than tank divisions so you can exploit breakthroughs.
Truly amazing video. This has come in very handy for me since I was trying to figure out the best way to strategic bomb while spending the least amount of resources possible (for mp). And during my tests for a moment it did felt they weren't worth it in any scenario, but alas, you convinced to keep my faith.
The video doesn't cover it, but during my testing, going operation intregity might be better for strategic bombing due the -50% visibility modifier while strategic bombing. I'm unsure how the math for detection works (since the enemy can easily get 100% detection in the airzone with cheer numbers of fighters, according to the UI). But weirdly enough, the strategic bombers still took around half the casulties compared to going strategic destruction (may even bomb unescorted because the enemy can't intercept them, which is funny).
There are a few things I'm still wondering, for example is it possible to make a strategic bombing that can fly unescorted?
Are turrets worth agaisnt MP fighters (i know SP ones they do be good), or are they are just wasted IC to score barely any kills.
Despite going reducing casulties in operation integrity, i dont know if its worth the loss of strategic bombing damage.
Does the night penalty matter for strategic bombing? During my testing i came across an interesting thing, the night penalty for strategic bombing is accuracy. But what exactly does that mean and does? Does it affect the damage of strategic bombing? When I tested it didnt look like it did, instead it was spreading the damage the factories. Having night reductions penalties seemed to focus the damage on the buildings you bombed already. I'm unsure if it did other things, like fiding the buildings or smth like that. So I remain unsure if it does something.
Well im off to watch your ultimate air guide ;).
I also tried operational integrity as per an earlier suggestion and it is effective. I think it came up to 165 IC per building bombed on the most difficult level, which isn't as effective as night strategic destruction path, but still more than respectable considering you get the best doctrine for fighters. In terms of modules, it might be better to skip the turrets as you can leave your fighters to protect you in the air. You can do unprotected bombing in single player, but I think you will lose too much IC if you face a good bomber defense in multi. Thanks for watching the vid!
Remember kid's, the difference between science and fucking around is writing shit down.
I wonder how Air-Air Radar on dedicated Heavy Fighters interceptors would alter this equation. It's basically the anti-night bombing build.
On a related note--did they ever fix the broken doctrine "Fighter Escorts" in the Day Bombing path? It was supposed to make day bombing less dangerous, but for the longest time it did literally nothing as the stat it was supposed to be buffing (escort efficiency) was removed from fighters.
Yep, you can build dedicated night fighters to better counter this, something that you should tell anyone who tries to ban this strat in MP. As far as escort efficiency goes, it still does nothing
@@balkan-cowboy >It still does nothing
They broke this back in 2018...lmao that its still still in the game
Yeah, that's Paradox for you 🐸
Dedicated night fighters played a large role in WW2.
The RAF’s night fighting capability was negligible at the start of the the Blitz, but by early 1941, the Beaufighter was introduced and their mission efficiency doubled every month until May and the Luftwaffe ceased its bombing operations.
The RAF was able to transition onto the offensive, and the Germans were roughly 2 years behind in their night fighting technology.
They relied heavily on ground based radar and support to guide interceptors, in locally assigned regions. The RAF was able to overwhelm specific areas.
The Americans decided to conduct their bombing raids during the day, with heavily armed bombers _(‘fortresses)_ with more range _(.50 BMG)_ than the German interceptors.
The night fighters were pushed into daytime service, on the already stretched thin air forces.
The heavy investment in the night fighters became a point of contention amongst the Germans.
Aircraft and operations on the eastern front had to be withdrawn to defend Germany from the air war.
thing is that bombers destroy more if you spread them out, as it's easier to destroy 1 our of 5 than 4 out of 5.
sending 100 bombers with small escort on a round-robin for a week, dropped for a week in each region you need bombed.
It's a bit more complex than that. Since the video I've learned that bombers also damage more buildings in areas closer to your home airport and that there's a thing that reduces bombing damage the more buildings you have bombed, which I think is what you're pointing at. In any case the test was a good indicator as the number of buildings and area bombed was the same. You can expect better results if you bomb more areas as you say.
Verry intresting video!
Thank you for the effort.
Nice one!
Thanks stud
idk why but i am huge fan for strat bombers
love this great video
Glad you enjoyed it
I also reject the premise of the video. The problem with strat bombing isn’t the relative cost of lost planes to damage inflicted (as the Allies you should have an IC advantage to ‘waste’ in bad trades).
The problem is the opportunity cost of the Ic used to produce strat bombers. Those factories could produce CAS, tanks, guns etc to actually take victory points and win the war.
With the way peace negotiations bias in favour of land combat damage and occupation it makes strat bombing a side show. The only value is to ‘tap’ a distant puppet (looking at you Dutch East Indies) to make sure they are in the peace treaty as they have suffered damage.
I don't argue that strat bombing is expensive, but to call it useless is not accurate. What happens if you struggle to secure a beachhead in mainland Europe? How can you ensure that the Germans don't overwhelm the Soviets in terms of air power on the Eastern Front? Strat bombing is a way to force the Axis to respond to you or suffer the consequences. Also, you can't have an unlimited number of CAS or bombers attacking ground troops as there is a thing such as "air combat width," which does not apply to strategic bombing.
@@balkan-cowboy where did I call I useless? I said opportunity cost.
How many more tank divisions can you push out sooner without strat bombers? Think about it.
And how many tank divisions can you chuck in France or mainland Europe in the first/mid stages of a landing, god forbid Africa or Asia, before it turns to a logistical nightmare? Can tanks damage airports from thousands of kilometers away so you can effectively neutralize an enemy air force and have complete control of the sky? How much IC would that save? What about disrupting synthetic rubber and oil factories? Strat bombers are expensive, they are certainly not for every country, but they have their use, which is why they were built by the USA and UK. Of course, with HoI4 you can't expect an accurate representation of reality, but I've displayed a way of protecting your expensive planes while doing more than enough damage to make the Axis squirm. And, for the record, I did a UA-cam search or five before making this video, nothing even remotely covering the topic of nighttime bombing showed up.
I liked the video but I think it would be better if you compared the ic lost by germany to the ic lost by the uk to see if they are actually worth it or not. Right now you showed how they can improve but its still not sure if its worth it or not (even if it seems so with that big of an increase it'd be nice to see proof).
Maybe a follow up video?
Either way keep it up I liked this video, you earnt a sub!
It's quite hard to calculate what Germany lost. They've lost fighters, fine, but how much IC a country loses depends on what they've built and what you've destroyed. And it's kind of hard to calculate what's the impact of a building being disabled for an X amount of time. It's an excellent suggestion but I have no idea how to take everything into account on the GER side :D
@@balkan-cowboy what about do two runs, one without strat bombers and one with (everything else including fighters equal, then calculate the total ic value that germany produced in each of them from their mils. then compare this to the ic taken up to make the strat bombers.
it does depend on what they've built and what you've destroyed but so does stuff in this video? i think it would be nice just to get an approximate answer even if it varies heavily. and you can always do a few different setups too.
Nice, looks like ill have to play the Netherlands soon, as they also get a night reduction advisor.
Do you maybe know how and if the strategic bombing visability in the operational integrety tree works? (compared to the day/night bombing)
Edit: what about giving the heavy fighters the radio navigation also because they will be fighting at night only anyways? and replacing the heavy mg turret x1 with a 2x light mg turrets since the stats are the same but will save 1 weight so the plane is a little bit faster.
Just did this. Bombed the hell out of Moscow, felt good
Fantastic question! Also just saw your edit. So, it turns out Operational integrity is almost as good as SD on night bombing IF you leave the strat bombers on night bombing only. The ratio for Operational integrity is 118, while on SD with NB was 111 (level 4 difficulty against radar, AA, fighters). I also ran 1 test when I didn't include the bomber visibility doctrine and the ratio came to 130 IC per building bombed. So it does do something, and you can bomb pretty well with strat bombers if you run the OI doctrine path. Also ran a test with the first doctrine in Battlefield Support and had a ratio of 145. It turns out that just putting your bombers and fighters on night missions seems to have the biggest effect, doctrines can help out but the difference is not as dramatic as I initially assumed. I've also thought about night fighters as there are also modules that are for night fighting, perhaps included as a counter to the potentially OP power of night strat bombing. I will make a new video because I also had a really good question on my multi-role video from another viewer, which led me to another discovery. I'll also check how TAC bombers perform on strat bombing if you stack some modules there, as they are twice as cheap, so they might be really effective as well.Thank you for the smart questions, I appreciate that the small amount of people that watch me also have an in-depth interest in the game, you helped me learn new stuff, so I'll give you a shoutout :)
Edit: TAC bombers with same tech and maxed out Strat stat costs 70 IC, which is 45% cheaper than the bomber I used. Ran a test with them, and their ratio was 166 IC lost per building mombed, but they also provide nice ground attack value to the mix, so they are also a quite good alternative to strat bombers if you want to build a jack of all trades bomber that can do it all - naval strikes, ground attack, strat bombing.
@@balkan-cowboy Thx! thats all very interesting. Looking forward to the next one.
@@balkan-cowboy Maybe I missed something but.. why give the plane a MG turret at all? Is is because you can't fit another armor plate in it?
Subbed, did he calculate enemy fighter losses in the IC costs?
No, it's only buildings bombed but they did lose a lot of fighters. You can argue that commiting the axis air force in Multi to defend is enough to make strat bombing effective. If you're playing a game where strat bombing is disallowed you can always do logistical strikes in Belgium to draw out their air force 🐸
Problem, in any situation where strat bombing becomes viable it will be banned in multiplayer. This is because of the self spiraling loop. You destroy their civs so they can't build mils to build fighters to stop you. Eventually they can't really do anything.
Well, that was what strategic bombing sort of did in real life. If they don't want to get bombed, tell them to git gud and build defenses lol
@@balkan-cowboy Yeah you could say that. However this strat pun intended is as good as space Marines used to be. The limiter being that they were of course too expensive vs their output. It doesn't matter how good you are at building AA or fighters. The mechanic of this strat is so powerful it will just be banned again. You bomb civs-mils=less fighters and aa as well as a chunk of their air tide up repelling you when they could be pushing on the Eastern Front.
For me, something that's overpowered means that it doesn't have a counter. Strat bombers have a counter - AA, radar, fighters. Heck, you even have modules like air to air radar so you can build dedicated night fighters to counter this strategy. Plus if you go dispersed industry, it is very hard to bomb civilian factories. I obviously can't control what people get salty about and decide to ban, but strategic bombing is not overpowered as you can counter it as long as you think and invest. In the loading screen, you have a quote: The Germans entered the war under the childish delusion that they were going to bomb everyone and they are not going to get bombed themselves. I have no further arguments 🐸
I know this is a video made over a year ago. Nonetheless, I have an inquiry. Do you think the overperformance of nightbombing could be related to your testing happening in winter? I am reasonably certain that at least for land combat Paradox actually has different daylight hours (i.e. in europe land night attack boni are worth less in summer). I may tske saturday and do a daylight vs nighttime bombing test in summer and winter. Perhaps the "two air ticks at day, one at night" thing is not as true as it always was held to be.
I don't think the system is that deep, but hey, I could be wrong. Let me know what you find!
I've always found it hard when playing as the U.K. to get enough IC to produce the army and airforce I need, I usually try to build enough fighters to help out France and then hold off the blitz later so I only have enough time to ever build a small Tac Bomber fleet which I tend to use to just harass German supply lines but I always throw some machine guns on my bombers to help out if the blitz gets really bad, anyway, and sorry for the rambling comment but you seem like you have a good grasp of the stats, and I'm useless at this stuff, so, is there any way you would consider looking onto the viability of using tac bombers as interceptors and if it's a waste of time with that spreadsheet wizardry of yours? (I usually go with 2 bomb bays, 2 heavy MG and then self sealing and some mix of armour or bomb sights/ electronics) Either way, great video dude :)
Edit: Also I'm pretty sure the MG's help air defence or something so it makes the bombers harder to shoot down but again, I'm not a stats guy, more of a "throw everything at the wall and see what sticks" aporach to this game
It's best to stay specialized for the most part, build fighters to protect your bombers, keep the bombers for pure ground attack. In general, CAS is better as you can cover more fronts, but if you're with the UK for example and range is an issue, then TACs are viable. Also there is this thing called air combat width, I explain this in more detail in my big guide, check it out if you'd like
@@balkan-cowboy I will, thanks for the reply :)
Hoi4 players when actuall ww2 strategy works
Great video, i belive enemy planes destroyed should have reduced your overall costs should have been
Why did u get multiple radars, i usually only get 1 to cover evrything.
In the video I didn't get multiple radars, I only advised to get multiple radars in MP if you fear strat bombing, as they only need to bomb 1 building to remove your coverage for most of the country. So against a player who is serious with their bombers, you probably would need a second/third radar near your industry to offset the potential loss of coverage from 1 bombed radar
I Knew I wasnt crazy for doing night strat bombers!
Welcome to the drift kangs gang of savants
Will you make a video on how to counter this?
Claimed sub 755. Here to the moon!
Wait I missed this but.
Are you also including how many fighters the enemy losses in IC?
No, that's just buildings bombed. Any further IC lost on their side is a bonus 👀
Just a question for you-------------> one thing you did not address is.............attaching CAS and fighters directly to your troops. How badly does this effect their performance if at all? It sure makes it a lot easier to move everything around, although I did notice when sending troops over seas, it appears to take a while for the aircraft to show up. Normally, I attach 100 fighters and 100 CAS to each general on their normal mission, (air superiority for fighters, close air support for CAS) then move in more planes to airfields as needed in the theatre. Still, I have little idea if the attached airwings are following what they are supposed to do. Another thing I noticed is that if an airbase is not close to the troops when they go overseas, (usually in Africa) the airports remains empty, even if the airbase is under my, or my allies control. Can you address this?
You're right, I will have to explore this mechanic more in-depth and I could make a video about it. I played with this function when it was introduced but back then, I noticed it wasn't doing a great job so I stuck with assigning Missions manually and repositioning accordingly. They could have improved it somehow, though, so it's worth a test.
I feel like Strat bombers are only good for nations that have the resources/industry to make a lot, and I mean at least like 2-3k of them by 39-40 *cough USA *cough however I just never end up playing the Nation(s) capable of doing so
One issue with math you are comparing 12 hrs vs 24 hrs of flight time to do same dmg are you not?
In 24 hours you do two day sorties and one at night. I see what you mean but then I ran the test over a month or something, so the total damage done by night is compared to the damage done by day and 24h and it is still incredibly high despite flying only 33% of the time.
3:55 why this diagram does not work with me? Even if I bomb enemy buildings it says "enemy buildings bombed 0". But if I save and play as the enemy the buildings in this region are destroyed.
Maybe you didn't tick on the right stats? You can adjust it to display specific things, so see how I've set it up and try again
@@balkan-cowboy it is shown how many planes I have lost, how many troops were bombed, the logistic strikes, but not the number of bombed enemy buildings. It always says "0"
@@balkan-cowboy or is that a setting in the game itself?
@@silaswalgenbach465 click on enemy bulidngs bombed and play with the day month year toggles. It shouldn't be a game bug but then again who knows
@@balkan-cowboy I did. But it always says 0. It must be a bug. One year ago I could exactly see all the stats.
I wonder if the massive differences can be accounted to the air ground radar and radio navigation. Would removing those make the planes cheaper while being just as capable on daytime bombing?
The majority of the cost for the airplane comes from the airframe and 4 engines. These modules are not that expensive in comparison, but I guess by removing them you can lower your daytime bombing costs somewhat
In kind of a similar question, have you tested air radars on the defending aircraft?
this is awesome, next MP game ill try to play the USA and troll the axis with shitton of bombers
I Wonder if you fly only at night and defenders are day/night mode does not that effect how many fighters they have in the air?
Depends on the mission, if it's intercept, they should engage you only whenever you fly bombers over their territory
Question: Should fighter escorts stay on all-day mode?
night + night, unless you need constant air superiority in a zone, which isn't usually the case unless your armies are there.
Awesome
Have you considered the enemy planes that you shoot down during the bombing?
The calculations I did were for the IC lost on my side per building damaged, so no. You can count them as a bonus
@@balkan-cowboy okay because I think that they probably differ wheter you are on all night or all day or both…
whoa nice
I noticed you had an average sort of bomber template. Fair enough. Historically wise, is it better to go for A USAAF style of daylight raids with bombers packed to the gills with armour and heavy MGs with Heavy MG fighters or is it better to go for an RAF night time bomber stream of a few cannon armed night heavy fighters with electronic aids as escort with bombers with max bombloads, a light MG or two, and all the electronic aids for night work that you can?
Well, historical and optimal models are two different things. And it depends what are you up against. If you're against the AI, just build a crap ton of strat bombers, make them as cheap as possible with non-strategic mats, stick with 4 engines, don't bother with any air defense or attack. Leave your heavy fighters to protect you, and do day and night bombing. The AI is so bad that it won't oppose you or any opposition will be negligible.
In MP where you're likely to face resistance, do night bombing and maybe invest in air defense but no air attack on your bombers. Fighters are the ones who fight fighters.
but whats the ic damage per unit of "building bombed"? is it completely destroying a building?
It gets damaged and needs to be repaired by civs to be used again, they can also damage infrastructure.
You can't completely destroy a building but you can put it out of commission until it's repaired again. If you're really effective with strategic bombing, you can flood the repair queue so bad that most industry and buildings are not working and can't be repaired fast enough, which sends one's economy and war effort to the shadow realm.
@@balkan-cowboy yeah i get that that's the concept, but I need some numbers before I'm convinced, how much ic does a bombing run do?
@@hagalathekido You mean how much IC damage does a bombing run do? That's an excellent question, but my current understanding of the game is not broad enough to answer it. You have a lot of variables here, here's some off the top of my head: what type and how many strat bombers you send, are the bombing missions being disrupted and if yes by how much, what buildings are you damaging (each has a different IC cost), how fast are they being repaired and how does increased repair speed affect that, and, most importantly, how can we quantify and calculate the lost IC or service that a building provides from being disabled for an X amount of time. I'm not even sure if a game developer will be able to answer you on that one 😁 what we have in-game is a simplistic buildings bombed stat that I used so we can find out how can we lose the least amount of airplanes while keeping buildings bombed high, that's what the ratio in the video tells us. Still, thanks for your question, if I can figure it out with some sort of test I'll make a video about it.
1000 bombers and heavy fighters, in 1940, lolz
2000* fighters 😘 I'm giving you an example scenario where UK and USA are involved, 1940 tech is also used in 1942 or 1943 usually.
Do I also set fights to night?
Yessir
I would also like to ask you about supply, lol. SCENARIO------------->You are playing USA, and you and the UK invade fortress Europe at Cherborg. You see the supply going in to that navalbase, so logic says at 1st chance, you increase the size of the naval base, yes? when you start taking supply hubs, you just can't click on them as you do in your core territory and build railroads out, so you are forced to manually increase the railroads which is time consuming. But then, as you expand out into Europe, when you check supply, you now notice that your supply lines are now going to a different port, and the naval base and railroads you have expanded are sometimes useless, or at least some of them are. Is there any way to FORCE where your supplies are sent so you can expand out, in this manner making your infrustructure improvements far more reliable? I have asked several people this question while searching for an answer, and all seem to be as lost as I am on this.
Sorry to disappoint you my friend, no idea as well. I also have around 1500 hours in game, it's just that I kinda hyper focused on air and I now know more than most on this topic. I will make a supply video eventually and I'll do my best to answer your questions. There are a hell of a lot rabbit holes in the game that I've yet to dive into, I'd rather be honest with you than tell you BS like some other UA-camrs. What I found is that the blind lead the blind in Paradox games, everything is complex and barely anyone dives deep enough to truly understand. I will get to it, but there's a lot more I need to learn until I become a Sensei. Probably hoi5 will come out until I figure everything about this game 🤣
spreadsheet video for hoi4 ? Subs !
Too many bomb bays. With the traits in strategic bombing doctrine you only need a strat bomb stat of 63-70 for 100% efficiency.
Not true, your strat bombing stat can exceed 100 and it has an effect, test it out
@@balkan-cowboy it’s been done. It’s called diminishing returns ua-cam.com/video/Eg0tcC1SNec/v-deo.html&si=IIzvj2TwnhHAHhi5
Ok, I'll bite. The specific variant he is proposing costs 118.50 IC, which is about 7% cheaper than mine at 127.5 IC. Yet according to Cloak's tests, the 96 strategic bomber does an average of 53.5 damage across the 2 zones, which is 14% greater than the 46 damage the bomber with 70 strategic bombing. 14% more damage vs 7% cost are returns that are not diminishing in my book. And, miraculously, with 4 bomb bays you get 70 base strat bombing as a stat, which then can be augmented to close to 100. Therefore, I hit no cap, real or not, with this model, which sits at 98 strat bombing with SD air doctrine tree, making it slightly better than Cloak's tests.
bro just tell me the meta
But is it worth the research?
Bombing buildings is a reliable way to force the axis air force to engage you in multiplayer
@@balkan-cowboy, coincidentally it was also a way to force a response in real life. The goal of the USAAF (and allied air forces in general) was to devour the Luftwaffle and taking bites out of German cities did wonders for baiting them out, destroyed factories were a bonus. (Note gjay this applies after the early failures of the bombing campaign when the objective had been to expand the Neander valley across the Reich.)
I can see "Pro multiplayer hoi 4 gamers" banning strat bombers... because it's easier to ban than thinking outside the box.
Lol if u have industry for so many expensive planes and germany is so broke that they can only trow so few at it, war is lost already and whatever u do dont really matter😂
Thats only for rp purposes
The test is not flawless yet it was equalized for all scenarios tested. The takeaway is that night time bombing is much more efficient than the other two, and it doesn't matter how many fighters or defenses the enemy has. Your losses will scale proportionally, but night time bombing will still incur the lowest losses.
@@balkan-cowboy i havent intended to criticize that. Its only that strat bombers make no sense as if you have such a big advantadge in industry over the enemy, you can simply roflstomp it directly. But loved the videos, keep the good work mate. Cheers👍
I get what you mean, but I still kinda like strat bombers as they have a unique way of ruining someone's game. Not sure how it holds up against really good players, but it could surprise someone.
@@balkan-cowboy uhh, as youre replying here anyway, im playing a game as Denmark, democratic but independant. Any tips about how the heck i get rid of damned uboats? German fleet is around me, so going to sea with ships isnt a possibility (altho im taking allied old boats via pp atm) im more inclined to use planes. Atm im using a kind of "naval fighter bomber" its a 1940 plane with engine 3, one torp, hv machineguns and flutuators and 1x armored seat and 1 light mg turret, would you suggest a diff design?
@@FelipeScheuermann1982 1 torpedo is usually all you need. The only thing I'd suggest is to build radar and/or put some of the naval bombers on naval patrol, this will allow you to find ships and subs much easier. Aside from that destroyers are the most effective way when you add sonar/depth charges, but might not be possible given your circumstances.
You look like zelensky
Was that a compliment or an observation 🤣
@@balkan-cowboy i don't know maybe observation. But you look like him when you wear jacket and Your beard
@@4Inglorious Hahaha, well, we're both from Eastern Europe :)
@@balkan-cowboy A Brother From Another mother 😅
Truly awesome