Part of that is Jesse Novak and his horror-soundtrack buildup. He did such an incredible job with the music on this show, the whole way through the run.
An interesting pattern of behaviour for Bojack is how he bounces between trying to play almost a surrogate father to young women in his life and then ends up sleeping with them. Intentionally or not this is deeply unhealthy for everyone involved.
That's a reach. Bojack hasn't bothered to play father to anyone, except to the 30something Sarah Lyn (and that was more or less based upon a mixture of guilt & ego). Every other woman in Bojack's life that he's slept with were adults. Most of them wanted to sleep with him for the notoriety of him being famous & wealthy. Those women that we saw earlier knew what they were getting into. So, can we not infantilize the fully grown women Bojack has slept with ? Bojack's a terrible person, that's not in doubt, but he's not "Uncle Hanky", "Vance Wagner" or Sarah- Lyn's step-dad for crying out loud.
@@seeleunit2000 I’m not saying he’s nearly as bad as any of those people. Im not even saying it’s entirely his fault, just pointing out something I saw as a pattern. I’m mostly just looking at Penny and Sarah Lynn. He acted as a member of the family to Penny for two months and for Sarah Lynn he literally played her father on tv for many years while she deeply looked up to him and then tried to relive that before they slept together. He was influential ti both of these girls in a more parental way before things went wrong. I’m not infantilizing Penny as she’s literally only a teen and not “fully grown” (not even 18 and an 18 year old isn’t even fully grown, just grown enough they can take care of themselves mostly but still need some guidance) and I’m not infantilizing Sarah Lynn as I’m more pointing ti their history together and how he influenced her than anything when she was older. It’s just a kinda bizarre parental thing he has had going with two people, more Sarah Lynn than Penny but he played Penny’s cool uncle and overshadowed her dad a few times. Bojacks actions make sense given his messed up head and he never intentionally acted maliciously as well but as we see throughout the show he hurts people with his actions and he has a problem of dodging responsibility and refusing to be responsible. This is a 50 year old man who should know better than half of what he does at least but the mental issues make his life more complicated and cause him to sabotage good things for himself, that’s the whole show. Like you said, he’s a terrible person. He’s not actively trying to sexually victimize people by any means but he gets in dubious situations. The only relationships I’m talking about are Penny and Sarah Lynn, neither of them wanted him for his fame, wealth, or notoriety
@seeleunit2000 we aren't talking about his one night stands we are referring to Sarah Lynn (as you mentioned) and Penny. Father figure is a stretch for other women but he DOES habitually manipulate and abuse his power with women
true, in the same episode where sarah lynn was having a party at his house, he basically admitted that he sees her as a daughter figure and then later on, banged with her with no hesitation whatsoever. I know that they were framing it as "dark funny" while Todd tries to tug his blanket free on the background, but I couldnt help but just frown at the entire thing. Even though it's arguably "mild" compared to how disturbing other shows can be, it was still legit one of the most uncomfortable developments I've seen on any piece of fiction, and then here comes season 2 episode 11, and then the next seasons' penultimates, and, well... Bojack may not have been "intentionally" malevolent or malicious with some of the worst things he's ever done, but it doesn't change the fact that he still did them. People will always end up being defined not by their hopes, dreams, or intentions, but for their actions and more importantly, the consequences of those said actions.
Yep. There's an instinct to want bad things to happen to assholes, and there's a reasonable element to that. The problem with Bojack is for a great deal of the series he rides the edge of being a level of asshole most people can relate to. Cowardly backing away when you knew you shouldn't, using the excuse that the world and people suck so why try, knowing your decisions are stupid and leaning into them anyway to achieve momentary pain relief. He's worse than the average person, but he's close enough. It's like the inverse hero that's just human enough to still be relatable but has heroic qualities that we can see in ourselves and feel better about it. This series is all about taking that asshole most people can relate to, and constantly making you think "god stop, I want you to be better!" It's what makes the series so intensely painful and good.
This was the episode that really set the precedent for episode 11s being not just incredibly important plot-wise, but some of the most character-defining, and emotionally devastating episodes of the show!
@graffititurtle9035 True, though I think episode 7 was a very significant episode as well, very much a subversion of our expectations for what penultimate episodes would look like up to that point
Remember one f bomb per season. Perfect use of it in this scene. Bojack came off as horrifically desperate the very minute the situation doesn't go his way. Crazy episode, great writing.
/i love how this episode framed bojack's pov of new mexico being an escape. sitcom opening, acting like his character, going to prom with the kid like some bit in a show, taking charge of the dance where most sitcoms would hve the kids cheering, choosing to believe he can escape from his actions because in a sitcom everything goes back to status quo everyone's issues are short and unimpactful outside that episode. But thts not his show, his life, he cannot escape from his own actions. So when he completely and utterly fucks up we cut back to his intro because again this is the bojack horseman show and it is not a sitcom.
I watched this show for the first time with a friend who’d already seen it. After this episode he turned to me and said, “Don’t worry, this is the worst thing he does.” Which I don’t feel is technically true-in terms of long lasting effects on the story, the worst is yet to come… but in terms of how uncomfortable I was watching, yeah, this takes the cake.
I was dreading where the interaction with Penny was going from the start, but I didn't get that full 'sick, cold, nauseous' depth charge until Bojack left the boat door open behind him after telling Penny to go to bed. There's a lot of ways to see how Bojack might have consciously or unconsciously intended that action, but there's only one way Penny would have seen it.
I really think the only reason Charlotte (or any parent in a similar scenario, catching an old acquaintance about to sleep with their kid) even gave BoJack the chance to leave before calling the police, was to spare Penny the pain of legal proceedings. Because, keep in mind, this was suppose to be a special night for her, her prom night. I’ve no doubt in my mind Charlotte wanted to wring BoJack’s neck and that she didn’t want to just let him go after that. It’s that she wanted to spare Penny that horrific pain, and perhaps alienation amongst her peers that can come with situations like this all too often…
That and the questions of why was your old friend of twenty years was suddenly living with you for the last 2 months is going to come up. Then Penny's mother Charlotte will have to explain what exactly went down and that would lead to the realization that, the only reason Bojack ever wanted to sleep with Penny was because Penny was a replacement for her mother, all because Charlotte rejected Bojack and Charlotte kissed. And that would definitely really mess up Penny's day. Almost sleeping with your mom's old friend of 20 years ago who just showed up two months ago, who only wanted to sleep with you because your mom rejected him after your he and your mom shared a kiss not too long ago... The backlash would be biblical.
The truth is its more the fact of the guilt that she knows that its her own fault as well, she still had residual romantic feelings for an old friend and she let him stay with her and her family for two months even though she knew bojack wasnt a moral paragon of a person. She wanted this to blow over as quickly and as smoothly as possible.
Actually Charlotte had no basis for calling the police or anything else. The age of consent in New Mexico is 17, so Bojack wasn't doing anything illegal. The whole trouble and discomfort was created by Charlotte.
Legal proceeding that would lead nowhere in terms of the stuff with Penny. The writers chose to have her above the age of consent in New Mexico exactly to remove any legal aspect
I think Bojack’s moment with Charlotte is one of the more under-discussed aspects of the show There’s a level of honest vulnerability from her that hurts to watch… she calls Bojack a coward in the flashback but I think there’s a part of her that views herself in a similar light, at least in this episode. She vibes with Bojack’s humor and wit so strongly yet also can’t handle seeing the worst aspects of herself in human or handle thinking about how broken and lonely her life could be if she didn’t find her family and work as hard as she did to build this life for herself For so many characters Bojack is this forceful, chaotic person that enters their life. The one’s who are broken in some way and can’t look away have this nagging want to give into his world of “consequence free” hedonism It’s so easy to give up and let our worst impulses rule our lives, this makes it all the more terrifying to see someone who personifies this. There’s a part of all of us that wants to give up, who’s to say most of us wouldn’t become a Bojack if we lived in his world free from consequences It makes total sense that Diane went to stay at Bojack’s home of all places..
My phycology professor in college was obsessed with this show and recommended it almost every class during season one, we'd often talk about random things that happened and analyze them. Part of me wishes I could have taken a class with her for every season because I'd love to hear what she had to say about this whole damn show. This episode is terrifying because Bojack clearly isn't into kids, but because he's so desperate he'll just break on any kind of morals he actually has. To me it shows that if enough things dont go his way he'll just give up and take at least something no matter how horrible it is. The man needs real help, because he obviously can't help himself and the people he's around can't help him either.
Poor Jacob, he looked so done with the show toward the end. :( But by now, you’ve both seen S2E12, which imo has the most hopeful ending with one of the most life-affirming lines I’ve heard in a TV show (pre-Ted Lasso). I never stopped pulling for Bojack throughout the series, and I think it’s because the show sprinkles in just enough hope to keep us going. And I don’t think it’s a spoiler to say that it does pay off.
To allude to my previous message of "What are you doing here?" being used through the season its telling Bojack ask Diane the following question at the end of the episode "You're still here?" Also this episode is deeply uncomfortable, the dropped f-bomb is so apt/fitting, Charlotte is such a messy/tragic character. I hope and believe you guys will continue. Though by this one week the next season ep 11 will be next year, or end of December. Which is understandable but oh id love more eps, or one more per week.
This show is designed to be binged, its the best way of not losing track of the continuously evolving storylines. So I agree with you, it would be great if the guys did at least 2 episodes per week
Great reaction. S1E11 was definitely a gut kicker but this is the first episode 11 that really demolished me. The writers did such a fantastic job building up the cringey discomfort. I was squirming in my seat every bit as much as you were the first time I saw it (heck, I still do when I watch it!). And yes, it's only season 2, lol. The episode 11's continue to get darker, believe it or not. Gonna be a fun ride!
Every time I watch the scene part of me hopes she won’t decide to follow the balloon, but then I remember how much worse it would be if she hadn’t. Bojack should be thanking god Charlotte walked in when she did, cause there’s no way he would have stopped himself otherwise.
I feel that the bros have missed something listening to their discussion after this episode. They're still taking about the suicide scene in the Secretariat movie, but after the last episode we know this isn't going to be in the film. The suicide scene was replaced by Secretariat going swimming with his girlfriend Suzie Side
The line about putting the blinders on was brilliant. Indeed, change requires that you look like a hypocrite for a while. Also, the part about stroking the ego by taking the problems in all at once and feeling bad is interesting. Conflating shame and remorse is common, but what is also common are people who criticize those who do that! I can’t say I’ve heard much about how that process occurs though, and it doesn’t seem to get in as much attention as other cognitive distortions in pop psychology.
This episode made me SO uncomfortable 😩 on a side note though, I've always felt Diane's whole arc was so relatable, as someone who struggles a lot with feeling paralized by shame (and the possibility of shame). It's a really difficult headspace to get through, even if you know rationally you * need to * put the shame away to be able to get anywhere. Knowing what to do and doing it are two very different things, sadly.
Now the question is: If she didn't interrupt, *would* BoJack have went through with it? On the one hand, he's not *that* far gone to willingly do something like *that.* On the other hand, he left the door open.
I know, right? When it was a little later than usual, I worried that maybe this deeply uncomfortable episode had been too much for them and they hadn't even wanted to look back to *edit* it, or something like that. My housemate still hasn't seen the entirety of this episode. He turned it off part-way through (I think he read some online recap instead to find out what happened), and although we watched the whole rest of the show together, he still has never seen this episode in its entirety. I worried that perhaps Jacob and Caleb might have taken it that hard as well.
this episode still sticks out in my mine and one of the best eps of bojack horseman, It makes me hate Bojack so much but also hate so many other characters in this show but at the same time I can see bit humanity in each of them and why they feel so real and why so many can ended up like them.
Yep, this was the episode - for me - that turned this show from a dark comedy to outright tragedy with chuckles in it. Everything that happened made me go "It can't get worse", and it just kept getting worse.
4:51 oh wow, that's exactly what she said in Bojack's drug trip in season 1 ! Really appreciated your discussions after the episode , great reaction as well 😊
@@heinrichagrippa5681 I mean I guess that’s fine I have similar complicated feelings towards him as well but my problem is with the two comments above yours denying that what he did this episode was (unintentionally) groom-ish behavior even though to me it’s pretty clear. Like it’s kind of bizarre that the episode that’s supposed to show Bojack in his worst and most careless (so far) is also an episode that has some people getting defensive over his behavior 🤷🏻♀️
This was the moat uncomfortable episode of the series for me to sit through, and the one time I had to just stop watching the show for a few weeks to process. This is episode is the first one that really hits you in the face and makes it sink in just how far they are willing to take these goofy animal characters into uncomfortably real territory. I don't think I really understood what this show was until this episode.
22:00 The fact that Caleb is adressing the season 2 ending line before it happens its a cool piece of media literacy. The moral of this season is in fact that you need to make little gradual changes if you want to be a better person instead of doing a 180 degree flip to your life and expecting that to change you (as both Bojack and Diane tried and failed to do).
What makes the final scene SO much worse, is if you recall what Charlotte said to BoJack 30 years prior. I’m paraphrasing, but it went something like, “Do you ever wonder what would’ve happened if you met me before Herb?”, something to that effect, as well as, “I think you’re a coward”. She’s basically saying how he couldn’t be upfront with her, couldn’t muster up the courage to take the plunge into the unknown that is any relationship. But he has the gall to make a move on her 17yr old daughter 3 decades later?! Charlotte’s “NO-“ encapsulates all of that. Disgust. Betrayal. And rage. And just like that, Herb, Charlotte and BoJack’s love triangle is truly dead.
I’ve often wondered that, if this had been an early season 1 episode, would people have simply stopped watching the show? It’s so cringey and awkward and uncomfortable. But coming at the end of season 2 means we are too invested to stop watching. It’s like driving past an accident and you know you shouldn’t look 👀, and yet you look
This was the biggest yikes of the series so far and it would go even lower than this. Bojack is such a well-written character. And he is also an awful, most times downright unforgivable one.
This episode is.... Rough... Obviously i can't relate to what Bojack almost did to the daughter there.... But man, i can relate to that kinda mentality, of not thinking things through and end up really hurting people. Always a cicle and it's really hard to break- I am finally doing therapy, taking anti depressants and feel like i've finally woken up for reals... And honestly, it's really hard to change your entire mentality. Nonetheless, i'm glad i've gotten to this point
I want to point out that the writers were sure to set up the thing with Penny as perfectly legal but morally unconfortbale. She is a nove age of consent in New Mexico, wasn't drunk, Bojack wasn't a special figure like a teacher,...
My one complaint about Bojkack Horseman is that I felt the writers were real cowards here. They made her as close to legal as possible and had him do as a little as possible with her. They were too scared to tell the story they actually wanted to tell.
Probably cause a lot of people can't deal with a main character doing something like that, just like Jacob mentioned with this episodes, he has issue with bojack almost sleeping with 17 years already, lots of people can't deal with that. it also becomes hard to laugh at bojacks silly jokes if you think about him being a pedo.
I very much disagree, by making Penny's consent borderline legal it takes the law out of the equation which most people use in place of morals when they cant decide if something is right or wrong. By making her "legal" the question comes down should a 50 year old man be having relation with a 17 year highschool student which Bojack has to figure while being brought low after Charlotte rejected him. And while art might limited when under Netflix banner im sure they told the story they wanted to tell. Or maybe they didnt I dont know, but neither do you.
@@MrDredme I agree, the dubiousness is kind of important to me. It brings up important discussion of things that happen in real life. Consent isn’t as clear cut as people may think and even if we ignore consent in this instance there are several other things we could debate about morally. That’s part of why Bojack himself has issues with it as he bounces between feeling disgusted with himself and trying to justify or downplay it
Bruh this ain't berserk, i don't wanna watch a kid get violated every 2 episodes. If bojack actually slept with, say, a 13-yo, he would become completely lost as a character to me and i would immediately drop all my sympathies for him. Why would the writers want that to happen?
I think the writers could have done a better job in this episode because I dont belive the Bojack that refuse Penny advances during the entire episode would have not keeping refusing her advances. Nothing about this was grooming, "subsconcius grooming"? Seriously!? He would do eveything for peoples aproval, that is the reason he did the stupid thing of giving them alcohol. Bojack just wants people to tell him he is not a bad person nothing and them for somebody to tell him that he is a good person. Some other thing, I never understood people desire to root for fictional characters, rotting is you trying to influence or change a result, but you cant do that for fictional characters you have 0 influence because a character is just following their part in the story a writter is trying to tell. One last thing, is really hilarious to me that this episode affects men way more than women, I think that is very interesting and funny. Specially because womens entertainment has A LOT of BIG age gaps of "underage girl x super powerful man".
Not really surprising men were more affected. The female perspective wasn't really focused on. Most men are aware of the societal ramifications of being in a situation like this. It doesn't matter what conscious or unconscious actions he took, just being in that situation can be damning so we relate enough to feel the incoming dread.
@Biostar96 I’m a woman and it always gave me a feeling if dread as I knew where it was going and I knew there be massive discourse around it leading to a lot of stressful conversations (outside of worrying about this 17 year old getting into a bad situation and regretting it) but what you’re saying makes sense since the show is from Bojack’s perspective we’ll all be thinking more about how this will impact his life
No matter how many times I see this episode, I always feel that terrible dread when Charlotte climbs onto that boat.
Part of that is Jesse Novak and his horror-soundtrack buildup. He did such an incredible job with the music on this show, the whole way through the run.
@@Steelburgh also charlottes voice acting is incredible
An interesting pattern of behaviour for Bojack is how he bounces between trying to play almost a surrogate father to young women in his life and then ends up sleeping with them. Intentionally or not this is deeply unhealthy for everyone involved.
That's a reach. Bojack hasn't bothered to play father to anyone, except to the 30something Sarah Lyn (and that was more or less based upon a mixture of guilt & ego).
Every other woman in Bojack's life that he's slept with were adults.
Most of them wanted to sleep with him for the notoriety of him being famous & wealthy.
Those women that we saw earlier knew what they were getting into.
So, can we not infantilize the fully grown women Bojack has slept with ?
Bojack's a terrible person, that's not in doubt, but he's not "Uncle Hanky", "Vance Wagner" or Sarah- Lyn's step-dad for crying out loud.
@@seeleunit2000 I’m not saying he’s nearly as bad as any of those people. Im not even saying it’s entirely his fault, just pointing out something I saw as a pattern. I’m mostly just looking at Penny and Sarah Lynn. He acted as a member of the family to Penny for two months and for Sarah Lynn he literally played her father on tv for many years while she deeply looked up to him and then tried to relive that before they slept together. He was influential ti both of these girls in a more parental way before things went wrong. I’m not infantilizing Penny as she’s literally only a teen and not “fully grown” (not even 18 and an 18 year old isn’t even fully grown, just grown enough they can take care of themselves mostly but still need some guidance) and I’m not infantilizing Sarah Lynn as I’m more pointing ti their history together and how he influenced her than anything when she was older. It’s just a kinda bizarre parental thing he has had going with two people, more Sarah Lynn than Penny but he played Penny’s cool uncle and overshadowed her dad a few times. Bojacks actions make sense given his messed up head and he never intentionally acted maliciously as well but as we see throughout the show he hurts people with his actions and he has a problem of dodging responsibility and refusing to be responsible. This is a 50 year old man who should know better than half of what he does at least but the mental issues make his life more complicated and cause him to sabotage good things for himself, that’s the whole show. Like you said, he’s a terrible person. He’s not actively trying to sexually victimize people by any means but he gets in dubious situations. The only relationships I’m talking about are Penny and Sarah Lynn, neither of them wanted him for his fame, wealth, or notoriety
@seeleunit2000 we aren't talking about his one night stands
we are referring to Sarah Lynn (as you mentioned) and Penny.
Father figure is a stretch for other women but he DOES habitually manipulate and abuse his power with women
@@seeleunit2000 the comment said "young women in his life," not the ones his age.
true, in the same episode where sarah lynn was having a party at his house, he basically admitted that he sees her as a daughter figure and then later on, banged with her with no hesitation whatsoever. I know that they were framing it as "dark funny" while Todd tries to tug his blanket free on the background, but I couldnt help but just frown at the entire thing.
Even though it's arguably "mild" compared to how disturbing other shows can be, it was still legit one of the most uncomfortable developments I've seen on any piece of fiction, and then here comes season 2 episode 11, and then the next seasons' penultimates, and, well...
Bojack may not have been "intentionally" malevolent or malicious with some of the worst things he's ever done, but it doesn't change the fact that he still did them. People will always end up being defined not by their hopes, dreams, or intentions, but for their actions and more importantly, the consequences of those said actions.
Here we learn the difference between rooting for a character to improve and rooting for character to succeed at things they're doing.
Yep. There's an instinct to want bad things to happen to assholes, and there's a reasonable element to that. The problem with Bojack is for a great deal of the series he rides the edge of being a level of asshole most people can relate to. Cowardly backing away when you knew you shouldn't, using the excuse that the world and people suck so why try, knowing your decisions are stupid and leaning into them anyway to achieve momentary pain relief. He's worse than the average person, but he's close enough. It's like the inverse hero that's just human enough to still be relatable but has heroic qualities that we can see in ourselves and feel better about it.
This series is all about taking that asshole most people can relate to, and constantly making you think "god stop, I want you to be better!" It's what makes the series so intensely painful and good.
Nah. I like bojack the way he is
@joshuawillingham6363 it's a comedy about a horse it's not that deep
@@reggielacey2235 Then you weren't paying attention.
This was the episode that really set the precedent for episode 11s being not just incredibly important plot-wise, but some of the most character-defining, and emotionally devastating episodes of the show!
@graffititurtle9035 True, though I think episode 7 was a very significant episode as well, very much a subversion of our expectations for what penultimate episodes would look like up to that point
Remember one f bomb per season. Perfect use of it in this scene. Bojack came off as horrifically desperate the very minute the situation doesn't go his way. Crazy episode, great writing.
/i love how this episode framed bojack's pov of new mexico being an escape. sitcom opening, acting like his character, going to prom with the kid like some bit in a show, taking charge of the dance where most sitcoms would hve the kids cheering, choosing to believe he can escape from his actions because in a sitcom everything goes back to status quo everyone's issues are short and unimpactful outside that episode. But thts not his show, his life, he cannot escape from his own actions. So when he completely and utterly fucks up we cut back to his intro because again this is the bojack horseman show and it is not a sitcom.
I watched this show for the first time with a friend who’d already seen it. After this episode he turned to me and said, “Don’t worry, this is the worst thing he does.”
Which I don’t feel is technically true-in terms of long lasting effects on the story, the worst is yet to come… but in terms of how uncomfortable I was watching, yeah, this takes the cake.
I was dreading where the interaction with Penny was going from the start, but I didn't get that full 'sick, cold, nauseous' depth charge until Bojack left the boat door open behind him after telling Penny to go to bed. There's a lot of ways to see how Bojack might have consciously or unconsciously intended that action, but there's only one way Penny would have seen it.
I really think the only reason Charlotte (or any parent in a similar scenario, catching an old acquaintance about to sleep with their kid) even gave BoJack the chance to leave before calling the police, was to spare Penny the pain of legal proceedings. Because, keep in mind, this was suppose to be a special night for her, her prom night. I’ve no doubt in my mind Charlotte wanted to wring BoJack’s neck and that she didn’t want to just let him go after that. It’s that she wanted to spare Penny that horrific pain, and perhaps alienation amongst her peers that can come with situations like this all too often…
That and the questions of why was your old friend of twenty years was suddenly living with you for the last 2 months is going to come up.
Then Penny's mother Charlotte will have to explain what exactly went down and that would lead to the realization that, the only reason Bojack ever wanted to sleep with Penny was because Penny was a replacement for her mother, all because Charlotte rejected Bojack and Charlotte kissed.
And that would definitely really mess up Penny's day. Almost sleeping with your mom's old friend of 20 years ago who just showed up two months ago, who only wanted to sleep with you because your mom rejected him after your he and your mom shared a kiss not too long ago... The backlash would be biblical.
The truth is its more the fact of the guilt that she knows that its her own fault as well, she still had residual romantic feelings for an old friend and she let him stay with her and her family for two months even though she knew bojack wasnt a moral paragon of a person. She wanted this to blow over as quickly and as smoothly as possible.
Actually Charlotte had no basis for calling the police or anything else. The age of consent in New Mexico is 17, so Bojack wasn't doing anything illegal. The whole trouble and discomfort was created by Charlotte.
She has so much more self restraint than me, I would have beat him within an inch of his life
Legal proceeding that would lead nowhere in terms of the stuff with Penny. The writers chose to have her above the age of consent in New Mexico exactly to remove any legal aspect
I think Bojack’s moment with Charlotte is one of the more under-discussed aspects of the show
There’s a level of honest vulnerability from her that hurts to watch… she calls Bojack a coward in the flashback but I think there’s a part of her that views herself in a similar light, at least in this episode. She vibes with Bojack’s humor and wit so strongly yet also can’t handle seeing the worst aspects of herself in human or handle thinking about how broken and lonely her life could be if she didn’t find her family and work as hard as she did to build this life for herself
For so many characters Bojack is this forceful, chaotic person that enters their life. The one’s who are broken in some way and can’t look away have this nagging want to give into his world of “consequence free” hedonism
It’s so easy to give up and let our worst impulses rule our lives, this makes it all the more terrifying to see someone who personifies this. There’s a part of all of us that wants to give up, who’s to say most of us wouldn’t become a Bojack if we lived in his world free from consequences
It makes total sense that Diane went to stay at Bojack’s home of all places..
My phycology professor in college was obsessed with this show and recommended it almost every class during season one, we'd often talk about random things that happened and analyze them.
Part of me wishes I could have taken a class with her for every season because I'd love to hear what she had to say about this whole damn show.
This episode is terrifying because Bojack clearly isn't into kids, but because he's so desperate he'll just break on any kind of morals he actually has. To me it shows that if enough things dont go his way he'll just give up and take at least something no matter how horrible it is. The man needs real help, because he obviously can't help himself and the people he's around can't help him either.
Poor Jacob, he looked so done with the show toward the end. :( But by now, you’ve both seen S2E12, which imo has the most hopeful ending with one of the most life-affirming lines I’ve heard in a TV show (pre-Ted Lasso). I never stopped pulling for Bojack throughout the series, and I think it’s because the show sprinkles in just enough hope to keep us going. And I don’t think it’s a spoiler to say that it does pay off.
To allude to my previous message of "What are you doing here?" being used through the season its telling Bojack ask Diane the following question at the end of the episode "You're still here?"
Also this episode is deeply uncomfortable, the dropped f-bomb is so apt/fitting, Charlotte is such a messy/tragic character. I hope and believe you guys will continue.
Though by this one week the next season ep 11 will be next year, or end of December. Which is understandable but oh id love more eps, or one more per week.
This show is designed to be binged, its the best way of not losing track of the continuously evolving storylines.
So I agree with you, it would be great if the guys did at least 2 episodes per week
Great reaction. S1E11 was definitely a gut kicker but this is the first episode 11 that really demolished me. The writers did such a fantastic job building up the cringey discomfort. I was squirming in my seat every bit as much as you were the first time I saw it (heck, I still do when I watch it!). And yes, it's only season 2, lol. The episode 11's continue to get darker, believe it or not. Gonna be a fun ride!
Btw don't get too down on the show. I don't think it's a spoiler to say that BoJack does try really hard to improve himself.
My personal favorite episode of the series, that montage in the sun on the boat is iconic, probably the moment I realized this is my favorite show.
Every time I watch the scene part of me hopes she won’t decide to follow the balloon, but then I remember how much worse it would be if she hadn’t. Bojack should be thanking god Charlotte walked in when she did, cause there’s no way he would have stopped himself otherwise.
I feel that the bros have missed something listening to their discussion after this episode. They're still taking about the suicide scene in the Secretariat movie, but after the last episode we know this isn't going to be in the film.
The suicide scene was replaced by Secretariat going swimming with his girlfriend Suzie Side
The line about putting the blinders on was brilliant. Indeed, change requires that you look like a hypocrite for a while. Also, the part about stroking the ego by taking the problems in all at once and feeling bad is interesting. Conflating shame and remorse is common, but what is also common are people who criticize those who do that! I can’t say I’ve heard much about how that process occurs though, and it doesn’t seem to get in as much attention as other cognitive distortions in pop psychology.
This episode made me SO uncomfortable 😩 on a side note though, I've always felt Diane's whole arc was so relatable, as someone who struggles a lot with feeling paralized by shame (and the possibility of shame). It's a really difficult headspace to get through, even if you know rationally you * need to * put the shame away to be able to get anywhere. Knowing what to do and doing it are two very different things, sadly.
Now the question is:
If she didn't interrupt, *would* BoJack have went through with it?
On the one hand, he's not *that* far gone to willingly do something like *that.*
On the other hand, he left the door open.
I've been refreshing all day, this is such an iconic episode.
I was scared you guys wouldn't upload today QwQ
I know, right? When it was a little later than usual, I worried that maybe this deeply uncomfortable episode had been too much for them and they hadn't even wanted to look back to *edit* it, or something like that.
My housemate still hasn't seen the entirety of this episode. He turned it off part-way through (I think he read some online recap instead to find out what happened), and although we watched the whole rest of the show together, he still has never seen this episode in its entirety. I worried that perhaps Jacob and Caleb might have taken it that hard as well.
this episode still sticks out in my mine and one of the best eps of bojack horseman, It makes me hate Bojack so much but also hate so many other characters in this show but at the same time I can see bit humanity in each of them and why they feel so real and why so many can ended up like them.
really interesting discussion this episode
12:25 the one f-bomb in this entire season
"Things can get worse, or they can get better."
Yes. Yes they can.
Yep, this was the episode - for me - that turned this show from a dark comedy to outright tragedy with chuckles in it. Everything that happened made me go "It can't get worse", and it just kept getting worse.
4:51 oh wow, that's exactly what she said in Bojack's drug trip in season 1 ! Really appreciated your discussions after the episode , great reaction as well 😊
This episode is so uncomfortable. Bojack was grooming Penny, even if he wasn't doing it consciously
Sure, anything is grooming now
@@electricant55 oh shit the bojack defenders are finally here! I’ve been wondering when we’ll finally see them 🙂
@rafasobczyk7349 you're actually an insane person and you missed the point of the show
No he wasnt
@@heinrichagrippa5681 I mean I guess that’s fine I have similar complicated feelings towards him as well but my problem is with the two comments above yours denying that what he did this episode was (unintentionally) groom-ish behavior even though to me it’s pretty clear. Like it’s kind of bizarre that the episode that’s supposed to show Bojack in his worst and most careless (so far) is also an episode that has some people getting defensive over his behavior 🤷🏻♀️
This was the moat uncomfortable episode of the series for me to sit through, and the one time I had to just stop watching the show for a few weeks to process.
This is episode is the first one that really hits you in the face and makes it sink in just how far they are willing to take these goofy animal characters into uncomfortably real territory. I don't think I really understood what this show was until this episode.
I watched for the reaction. I stayed for the free therapy session at the end.
Great discussion !
I can’t wait for you to continue with this show !
2nd penultimate episode!
Every single one after will be a 10/10 classic!
22:00 The fact that Caleb is adressing the season 2 ending line before it happens its a cool piece of media literacy. The moral of this season is in fact that you need to make little gradual changes if you want to be a better person instead of doing a 180 degree flip to your life and expecting that to change you (as both Bojack and Diane tried and failed to do).
I love this show because it's an irredeemable character searching for redemption.
I remember watching this blind, what an experience. XD
What makes the final scene SO much worse, is if you recall what Charlotte said to BoJack 30 years prior. I’m paraphrasing, but it went something like, “Do you ever wonder what would’ve happened if you met me before Herb?”, something to that effect, as well as, “I think you’re a coward”. She’s basically saying how he couldn’t be upfront with her, couldn’t muster up the courage to take the plunge into the unknown that is any relationship. But he has the gall to make a move on her 17yr old daughter 3 decades later?! Charlotte’s “NO-“ encapsulates all of that. Disgust. Betrayal. And rage.
And just like that, Herb, Charlotte and BoJack’s love triangle is truly dead.
No spoilers but just by hearing your discussion, I can tell you are really gonna like the ending of the show
Bro on the left is stressing lmao
THERE it goes
Ohhh no we've reached THIS episode
15:38 Same for me like after I've watch re: zero ep 15 I was just really uncomfortable and I really but really needed Subaru to get a win.
So deeply uncomfortable and upsetting. Of all the Bojack Horseman episodes, this takes a high ranking in being the most cringey.
Escape from LA? More like Escape from my mental well-being.
Ah yes the “oh god oh god no” of episodes
I’ve often wondered that, if this had been an early season 1 episode, would people have simply stopped watching the show?
It’s so cringey and awkward and uncomfortable. But coming at the end of season 2 means we are too invested to stop watching.
It’s like driving past an accident and you know you shouldn’t look 👀, and yet you look
Bojack, both the show and the character, will have quite a few highs and lows. Its definitely not a linear progression as you have seen with season 2.
Oh there are some freaks in this comment section 😭😭😭
SOMEONE SAID BOJACK DID NOTHING WRONG
Truly hope they don’t have any kids who look up to them in their lives
great episode
OH man Was waiting for you guys to get here! Didn't dissappoint.
Penny was wrong but she’s young teenagers also do dumb things Bojack is an adult HE SHOULD KNOW BETTER!
It was legal though! And she kept forcing him even though I agree bojack should have handled it better.
@@elpasa9308FBI!!! THERES A PREDATOR HERE!! GET THIS GUY
Bojack left the door open for her 😮
Was dreading this episode the entire time you've been watching. Love the show but this was just....something else (for better or worse).
I think yall will love the next episode
Oh wait, i see parallels with Mushoku Tensei now
oh god it's here. oh shit
yay
I can't even watch a cut version of this episode for a reaction without skipping around lol this episode makes me wayyyyyyyyy too uncomfortable
YES YES IVE BEEN WAITING
This was the biggest yikes of the series so far and it would go even lower than this. Bojack is such a well-written character. And he is also an awful, most times downright unforgivable one.
This episode is.... Rough...
Obviously i can't relate to what Bojack almost did to the daughter there.... But man, i can relate to that kinda mentality, of not thinking things through and end up really hurting people. Always a cicle and it's really hard to break-
I am finally doing therapy, taking anti depressants and feel like i've finally woken up for reals... And honestly, it's really hard to change your entire mentality. Nonetheless, i'm glad i've gotten to this point
I'm uncomfy lol
Wonderful cringey episode 😮
Yo man putting a condom with mouth dude! That's impressive! That's crazy. As soon as the mother rejected him I knew he what he was gonna do next🤣
I want to point out that the writers were sure to set up the thing with Penny as perfectly legal but morally unconfortbale.
She is a nove age of consent in New Mexico, wasn't drunk, Bojack wasn't a special figure like a teacher,...
Satanism help your self so you can help others
Good god, the cringe.
My one complaint about Bojkack Horseman is that I felt the writers were real cowards here. They made her as close to legal as possible and had him do as a little as possible with her. They were too scared to tell the story they actually wanted to tell.
Brah you wanted them to show him have sex with a child????
Probably cause a lot of people can't deal with a main character doing something like that, just like Jacob mentioned with this episodes, he has issue with bojack almost sleeping with 17 years already, lots of people can't deal with that.
it also becomes hard to laugh at bojacks silly jokes if you think about him being a pedo.
I very much disagree, by making Penny's consent borderline legal it takes the law out of the equation which most people use in place of morals when they cant decide if something is right or wrong. By making her "legal" the question comes down should a 50 year old man be having relation with a 17 year highschool student which Bojack has to figure while being brought low after Charlotte rejected him. And while art might limited when under Netflix banner im sure they told the story they wanted to tell. Or maybe they didnt I dont know, but neither do you.
@@MrDredme I agree, the dubiousness is kind of important to me. It brings up important discussion of things that happen in real life. Consent isn’t as clear cut as people may think and even if we ignore consent in this instance there are several other things we could debate about morally. That’s part of why Bojack himself has issues with it as he bounces between feeling disgusted with himself and trying to justify or downplay it
Bruh this ain't berserk, i don't wanna watch a kid get violated every 2 episodes. If bojack actually slept with, say, a 13-yo, he would become completely lost as a character to me and i would immediately drop all my sympathies for him. Why would the writers want that to happen?
I think the writers could have done a better job in this episode because I dont belive the Bojack that refuse Penny advances during the entire episode would have not keeping refusing her advances. Nothing about this was grooming, "subsconcius grooming"? Seriously!?
He would do eveything for peoples aproval, that is the reason he did the stupid thing of giving them alcohol. Bojack just wants people to tell him he is not a bad person nothing and them for somebody to tell him that he is a good person.
Some other thing, I never understood people desire to root for fictional characters, rotting is you trying to influence or change a result, but you cant do that for fictional characters you have 0 influence because a character is just following their part in the story a writter is trying to tell.
One last thing, is really hilarious to me that this episode affects men way more than women, I think that is very interesting and funny. Specially because womens entertainment has A LOT of BIG age gaps of "underage girl x super powerful man".
Whether he chose to or not he was absolutely treating penny as charlotte. Wanting to make up for what he could have had
@@mattimeikalainen6963???
Not really surprising men were more affected. The female perspective wasn't really focused on. Most men are aware of the societal ramifications of being in a situation like this. It doesn't matter what conscious or unconscious actions he took, just being in that situation can be damning so we relate enough to feel the incoming dread.
He is a groomer
@Biostar96 I’m a woman and it always gave me a feeling if dread as I knew where it was going and I knew there be massive discourse around it leading to a lot of stressful conversations (outside of worrying about this 17 year old getting into a bad situation and regretting it) but what you’re saying makes sense since the show is from Bojack’s perspective we’ll all be thinking more about how this will impact his life
I just can't take this show seriously
She’s above the age of consent. Bojack did nothing wrong.
lol, lmao
shes a minor silly billy
He's 50