Bret! Evergreen student here. Never got a chance to take one of ur classes but I had couple friends in ur class when the shit hit the fan last year.. just wanted to say, you are absolutely loved in my househouse and accross my friends. We've still been experiencing some incredible BS at Evergreen but I just wanted to say thank you for standing up for what is right and helping lead students away from some of the toxic propoganda taught at this establishment. It has been incredibly meaningful and i hope ypu continue to post more videos! -Orion Valencia
Orion Valencia Why don't you guys rise up and ask for George Bridges resignation. He doesn't stand up for justice. Social justice is not tribalism. Where one group gains power over another due to perceived injustices. Equity comes from all people being judged by their character not their skin color. Frankly, Bridges is a very weak, brainwashed and deluded liberal.
I lost my wife. It is absolutely ruining me. I struggle to find the purpose in this pain. Why does this exist in our evolution? I can not defend from the lion, I am now a failure as a functional member of my kin. Thank you for I was hoping you would talk about grief. It is a very big problem for me
BRET BRILLIANT as always... I wonder if Bret and Heather have "mourned" for the loss of their "dream job" in the Evergreen that once was... a college on a hillside... I love how Bret explains the "untangling" from the mind and having more unknown (or less obvious) circuits needing "re-wiring" months / years later after the apparent "loss." "The Grief Recovery Handbook" claimed, among other things, that "many things" may need to be grieved that one would not have supposed did... a very weird example, if I recall correctly, claimed that a child of 10 who is "suddenly" moved from "the old neighbourhood" into a new one but never had the chance to "say goodbye" to the old neighbourhood, may, decades later still carry that "unfinished business" with them and need to go through the exercises of expressing the things that never got a chance to be expressed... Of course that could be a formula for selling books or getting wrapped around the axel of unending therapy... but the proposition was that it would, ultimately, be a freeing exercise.
My mother passed away just last evening and I wanted you to know that I found this video very interesting, and strangely comforting. It also helps explain to me how I was so effected by the recent death of someone I knew only online, first playing games with him a decade or more ago, and then watching him on UA-cam, and watching his channel, grow to over 2 million subscribers and him becoming one of the biggest names in online gaming journalism and champion against anti consumer practices by gaming companies. Thank you Dr. Weinstein for sharing this with us.
There is a theory in cognitive science that memory in humans extends beyond our brains and we actually "store" moments or memories within the memories of those closest to us. Many individuals who have cohabitated for a long period of time with a significant other who find themselves suddenly without that person, say a loss from a death or even a divorce of a spouse, speak of the loss almost in terms of an amputation - "a part of me is missing." This can actually be very true. We begin to rely on people to recall certain things and function in harmony with us in both thought and action. Over the years this symbiosis creates a sort of mental fusing where two people, while not physically connected, share a bond that is almost just as palpable.
I wish you would have discussed post break up grief. When a person hasn't died, but the relationship ends, either they betray you or they stop liking you, whatever. Especially in the case of treason, I think Jordan Peterson explains this really well, it breaks up your life, you get so confused becuase you don't know where you are anymore, what you thought that person was, isn't, and what you thought the past was isnt' true, so you need ome painful reframing. Personally I spend around 3-5 years grieving over someone like that, other factors definitely are involved, but I got so surprised when you talked about the periods in between grief that you feel normal and functional, I definitely experienced that yet I thought that meant I had overcome it completely. Very interesting video! Also when you were saying dreams and grief are badly represented on film, have you seen Mulholland Drive? At least to me, that one nails it perfectly
My father said, "Take the marble off the steps NOW!" Or, "Move slowly . . . get hurt slowly" (example: working in a low ceiling attic with nails protruding) and scores of other wisdoms that have become part of me.
Excellent discussion. 1) My only observation involves grief for people who are still living...., and 2) my question involves cases where there is no obvious grief exhibited (which you touched on re: humans); specifically in dogs...
We always get cogently expressed erudite good sense from Bret Weinstein. And what a marvellous interviewer in the shape of Benjamin Boyce! One hardly knows he’s there but he draws out such insightful wisdom from his subject. Interesting posts from cat owners who have observed grief expressed by their pets. Unlike the other highly intelligent social animals, cats are neither
A year and bit on, I'd just like to thank Brett, and Benjamin, for this video. Looking back it helped me considerably deal with the passing of my elderly parents in Sept 17 and June 18.
I would venture to say that, if your grandfather is still present to you because of your willingness to have his presence remain, you have not “lost” him, like you can “lose” car keys due to negligence. Thank you for this lovely speculation.
I appreciated hearing the bit about already being prepared for the loss of someone and to not feel guilty for not needing to grieve after they actually die. My parents were a generation older than most of my peer group’s and I began anticipating their death at a young age so by the time they died I felt I’d done all the work already, but other people didn’t understand this.
Great video. Im 18 and recently lost one of my best mates who's also 18. Was a complete shock was supposed to meet him on that night, one of the most motivated and hard working people ive met and always tried to encourage me as i have no motivation:). Its been like 3 months and i still dont have the words for it, someone to just poof into the wind is quite ungrouding.
In addition to everyone's advocating Bret to make more videos on the philosophy behind evolution; love the background. Great setting for the interview!
We grieve our own deaths 'ahead of time.' This is obvious. We aren't going to be bothered by death (or anything else) when we're dead. The time to realize that our ability to experience things will be taken away from us, and to lament the loss, is when we're still alive to contemplate this prospect.
WEinstien is Such a brilliant mind and so likeable, too! This also added to my understanding of grief - yes, others are wired into our nervous system and we hit upon little wired -in pockets less and less as our life carries on and we need to deal with the new challenges and new people creating more and different wiring connections. ....and yet, a grandfather can still see through your eyes! Beautiful!
Very important insights. I also sometimes wonder what kind of signaling our unconscious mind may be involved in toward other unconscious minds. For instance is there an aspect of grief that signals to the social group to take some action?
I do depend on my dog(s) in a big way as a replacement for family. They have always been there for me, a constant, so a combination of elder and child loss. Tom Petty's music was the soundtrack of many important moments and I never realized it until his death.
Hey Bret great video! I was wondering if you could do a video on the evolutionary meaning of depression (clinical). It seems counterintuitive for individuals to undergo vegetative states and experience adhedonia to me and be such a prevalent psychopathology. Keep up the great work
I would also love to hear Brett's thoughts on this topic. It's something I have wondered about before, and I think it has to do with cutting out distractions and ruminating. There's an awful lot of thinking and internal dialogue involved with depression (which could be very beneficial), and I wonder if it was something that started out as adaptive, but can get out of control and become counter productive. The metaphor in my head is something like an auto-immune disorder, or an allergy, where the immune system identifies something innocuous as an enemy, and then goes into overdrive and actually harms itself. I wonder if our ancestors had to be able to deal with such difficult circumstances that they developed an emotional immune system, but like a sterile environment leads to allergies, our attempts to make modern life much safer and 'trouble-free' has lead to an increase in depression. Situational depression has gone down dramatically, but depression for seemingly 'no reason' has become more and more prevalent in the most 'developed' countries in the world. I want to elaborate, but I haven't thought it through yet.
Excellent thoughts, Donnie Dread. I too would like to hear Brett's thoughts. 'safer' and 'trouble-free' is an interesting claim. While I can see that with an objective, physical-threat analysis, this is true. My difficulty accepting the idea that we can describe this to be the case intellectually, is that all the threats immediately present in society are typically abstract in nature, or have such a significant non-physical value as to be easily misapprehended as 'not a threat'. Consider the case of my losing my income. The money I gain from it is abstract, the absence of money is an abstract value, the mortgage on my house is abstract, the bank deals in abstract values, and so on. The social factors are abstract, if I don't work, I am not fulfilling the ideals my parents or partner place on me, my peers won't respect me if I remain unemployed, and if such a state is perpetuated for some length of time I will no longer have friends, the people who respect me, respect me on the basis of abstract criteria. At some point there is the abstract idea of failure that must be dealt with. We hate people over abstract social items. It doesn't matter whether I work physically or not, it is whether I am paid for that work that counts, whether I am 'independent' or not. Something like this. In addition to this type of abstract threat, which looms because I am a wage-worker in a company that could replace me with a robot in the near future, there is the MSM, informing me about how threatening the world is, how large the government is, how vicious the criminals are, how useless the millennials are, how entitled the pensioners are, how low the birth-rate is, how crazy the liberals are, how hateful the conservatives are, and on and on it goes. Most of these problems are not problems I can solve. If I am presented with a large number of problems I cannot solve, how do I resolve the sense of threat? My point is, if it isn't already obvious, that we do not live in a trouble-free era. We are told about countless troubles we can do nothing about (the middle-east, North Korea, Islamic extremists), amidst a set of personal problems the elements of which are not physical, tangible or transient. A wolf is an threat that is measurable, the solution is straight-forward, transient, and if I have a rifle I have the power to deal with it. An employer suggesting to me that perhaps a robot could replace me if I cause problems for him is a far more abstract threat. [Note that the example of an employer threatening to replace me is a fabrication for the sake of argument] Good thinking, Donnie, I would suggest that the 'trouble-free' premise, even in a relative sense, is false. The threats are simply different, and this difference in the nature of perceived threats may actually be part of the problem.
Dave Wilson this is all good stuff, and well thought out. There are myriad chronic stressors, some of which can debilitate us directly or indirectly (eg. drug addiction secondary to chronic severe pain, or severe anxiety/insomnia). The threat of brutal social stigmatization atop already harsh, or even horrifying struggles, create a sense of unavoidable ego catastrophe. If not death, then a sense of looming, abject failure of an almost unbearable kind. Again, the stressors are now largely chronic, and egoic/emotional, rather than transient and existential.
I was with my brother when he was diagnosed with esophageal cancer, I found out he was stage 4 and landed up telling him he had a 4% chance of living for 5 years. He went from being clinically obese to looking like he was anorexic in 9 months. I was upset before he died but not really upset after he did die. I had told other family members to get comfortable with the idea that he was going to die, he lived in my house so I did see the whole thing until he went into oblivion.
Bret, keeping making these videos. People crave pure unadulterated, calm and thoughtful conversations in science and philosophy without all the crazy sensational graphics, click bait, and political/social and cynical garbage that tends to creep into these subjects.
This is so interesting! I originally found you as many did via evergreen, but as time passed I find your explanations of biology so much more interesting! You are an amazing professor!
Cats can feel grief 100%, both acute (crying out when finding a dead friend) and prolonged (not eating for weeks and looking almost half their weight). I have seen this myself on several felines since I work with them for many years. For me this is indisputable.
Bret, I just found your channel today (your testimony on evergreen was in my recommended feed). Love what I’ve seen so far - this video in particular. I feel the presence of loved ones in situations similar to the one you mentioned about moving a ladder. I feel the presence of loved ones both living and deceased- have you experienced the same?
To the point of the Jewish tradition of not placing a headstone until a year after burial. When my father passed away a few years ago, my mom and I were advised not to pay for a headstone until at least a year after the burial because the earth can shift and settle for a while and it might interfere with the headstone. So I'm not sure if these are related.
Intrograte I also think it is a brilliant solution, but you can see what he's saying... Some goofball is going to complain about how concieted he is to compare himself to Einstein...
Just throwing this out there but I think the outward display of grief also indicates to others that the person who has passed gave value to the tribe and therefore should be emulated based on the amount of grief shown.
How do you know cats don't go through this emotion? In the USA many people approach death and grieving very much in contrast to say, the Irish grieving processes. Our whole living is about our dying. We need to embrace the reality that we cannot control death.
Eric did an interview where the interviewer made a "one letter away from Einstein" comment. Eric parried, "yeah but it's also one letter away from Feinstein."
The unveiling (in Judaism) signifies the end of the official period of both public and private mourning not grief. While they are related, they are also distinct things in which someone can engage in mourning but feel no psychological grief, or be greatly aggrieved but no longer continue to mourn the death (probably the case). I'd be interested to know how well the official mourning period of a single year actually maps to someones typical experience of grieving over the loss of a parent or child. I imagine a year is probably enough for an adult to recover from the loss of a parent, a child, perhaps not. However I have always appreciated at least the idea that one is both obliged to mourn the loss, but also obliged to stop it at some point, as it is not healthy to become fixated on it forever
Um, okay, but what's the evolutionary mechanism by which grieving helps one to perpetuate one's genes? That's what I clicked to hear a hypothesis about. Not the spiritual-esque notion that grief is the flip side of love, and grampa is still with us if we remember something he taught us, and other such cathartic self-help mumbo jumbo. What's the _evolutionary_ 'meaning' of grief? Why do we feel it? How did that get selected for by natural selection? What lineage-survival utility does it provide?
Benjamin Boyce is the interviewer in this, and his channel is fantastic! He covers the Evergreen scandal in great depth, and I highly recommend checking out his content.
I had a cat mother who was griefing about her dead kittens, she stayed days at their side, and she knew they were dead. On the other hand my grandparents had a cat who killed all her kittens without any sign of griefing. So, i would say it is not that easy!
Jordan Hall recently said we go through a similar process as grief when there's any major change in our life. And my mother once said the same thing. I think there may be something in this.
Bret I'll be going to see you and Jordan and Sam on the 23rd of June in Vancouver - would you be available for an interview sometime? I'd like to get your take on the evolutionary utility of ritual practices like yoga. Thanks for your work.
Bret, do you have any comments on the long term effects of grief on mental health? What happens to a person when they experience several traumatic events in a row that cause their own separate states of grief? What is the limits of grief a person or animal can handle without damaging the mental well-being of the creature?
This notion of a person's lost loved ones living on within them isn't one I've ever given much weight to. Interestingly, in the way Bret explained it here, it does make some sense, if only as a metaphor or a pleasant psychological trick to play on oneself (something I imagine we do all the time, both knowingly and unknowingly). I wonder if it can't be explained along biological or mimetic lines insofar as one's ancestors really do live on in our genetic material and their teachings (as in the case of a grandfather, as here described) 'run as software' that informs our behaviour and, by extension, our 'self'. With regard to the latter, I guess one could say our notion of self includes much software of a mimetic kind, the most valued of which likely stems from those individuals closest to us, those we view as mentors especially. Then again, subsuming an element of someone's teachings into one's own view isn't necessarily paramount to some vestige of their personality living on(This, I think, is what Benjamin was saying). One could argue that we conduct a kind of emulation of an imagined thought process, Bret employs his grandfather's sensibility in beholding the ladder and the danger may pose, maybe he runs a lo-fi copy of his grandfather's personality in assessing his environment. While this is interesting, I guess it isn't really the crux of the topic. I understand the hypothesis, or think I do, that the grieving stage is a readjustment or reorientation to a social world that has been altered by the death of an important individual. Why exactly such a process is necessary/advantageous is not, however, entirely clear to me. Would we not be better off moving on immediately, as a cat would after losing a kitten? Is the suggestion that highly social creatures cannot avoid such a stage? That the nature of their social structures created grief as a sort of by product, or that it is somehow important for an individual to show that they are grieving? Does a deep investment in other individuals, with all the activation of emotional circuitry that goes along with that, necessitate pain at their loss?(Assuming a creature of high intelligence) I guess its probably the last of those, if I understood correctly. In any case, fascinating topic, thank you.
There is something I feel he missed when he talked about grieving for John F. Kennedy. I think, it's not so much Kennedy that many people were grieving for, but the idea that nobody would assassinate the US president, that we were immune from a certain kind of political strife. They were grieving for the assumptions about how their country operated that they'd woven into how the interacted with the world.
It's possible that one of the reasons for why some organisms experience grief is for the purpose of remembering what they said or did wrong to die. I suspect that older peoples deaths are grieved less. Because it was expected and we know they did nothing 'wrong' to die. Notice that when a person dies they suddenly become more memorable and the things they said are now looked at as more important. When a person dies they become kind of mythological figure and above a normal human being. When a young person dies unexpectedly we think about them. Our minds go into the past and we repeat experiences in our minds whilst feeling sadness. We could think about the neurotransmitters that are released during grief. Maybe it's adrenalin and cortisol. Both adrenalin and cortisol play a role in the strength of memories. And if it's not to remember what they did wrong to die (or what you did wrong to allow it to happen), this person must have been important (and therefore useful) and it would pay to remember their words and teachings. We then can learn from them and at least their death can be somewhat useful
There's a way. Write a script to generate 4000 email accounts. Also make the script create and login to their youtube accounts. Finally hit like, then subscribe.
mr bret could exposure to humans by elephants and dogs teach them grief by observation and close relationships with us..primates i can understand having it
It seems like Bret wants to explain everything as a beneficial adaptation instead of an unfortunate and maybe irremovable bi product of a different adaptation.
the right should want a vibrant left? i think the right would settle for a left that's at least able to engage in a conversation. The left needs to provide some articulated arguments about the merit of helping those disposed by the system. No one on the right will ever be persuaded by chanting and ranting.
I would think the grief over losing a dependent would instead be about learning from mistakes made. It doesn't make sense to me that the adaptation-scenario would take that long. Moreover, one would think this would apply to any mammal and bird. Mistakes made though would make more sense: this takes a lot of analysis. It also has a clear benefit (not dying yourself, or having other children/dependents die by the same errors). And there it makes sense that social animals have more of it: we would get that when a hunting partner dies; a cat wouldn't. Though the cat should still have it when a kitten dies, one would suspect. And of course it has the advantage of explaining why we don't have seperate words: both are about learning after a death, by revisiting their lives and incorporating the past into ourselves. Differentiation: one would think that if it's about not repeating mistakes, you would be riddled with "what could I have done differently"... guilt. A final consideration is social to the core. While this couldn't evolve initially, it could add on, a need to signal that this person was important to us, that we're learning from past mistakes and so forth. As always, the best way of faking it, is doing it sincerely.
Bret!
Evergreen student here. Never got a chance to take one of ur classes but I had couple friends in ur class when the shit hit the fan last year..
just wanted to say, you are absolutely loved in my househouse and accross my friends. We've still been experiencing some incredible BS at Evergreen but I just wanted to say thank you for standing up for what is right and helping lead students away from some of the toxic propoganda taught at this establishment. It has been incredibly meaningful and i hope ypu continue to post more videos!
-Orion Valencia
Orion Valencia Why don't you guys rise up and ask for George Bridges resignation. He doesn't stand up for justice. Social justice is not tribalism. Where one group gains power over another due to perceived injustices. Equity comes from all people being judged by their character not their skin color. Frankly, Bridges is a very weak, brainwashed and deluded liberal.
I lost my wife. It is absolutely ruining me. I struggle to find the purpose in this pain. Why does this exist in our evolution? I can not defend from the lion, I am now a failure as a functional member of my kin. Thank you for I was hoping you would talk about grief. It is a very big problem for me
Bret is my favorite bagel. I wish I could watch one of these every day.
Invin bagel?
17:10 to end
Is that a code word for jew? Shame on you
Mert Su Why do people always assume racism? Geez, it's just a joke about what was said at the end of the video.
Mert Su coffee meets bagel
BRET BRILLIANT as always... I wonder if Bret and Heather have "mourned" for the loss of their "dream job" in the Evergreen that once was... a college on a hillside... I love how Bret explains the "untangling" from the mind and having more unknown (or less obvious) circuits needing "re-wiring" months / years later after the apparent "loss." "The Grief Recovery Handbook" claimed, among other things, that "many things" may need to be grieved that one would not have supposed did... a very weird example, if I recall correctly, claimed that a child of 10 who is "suddenly" moved from "the old neighbourhood" into a new one but never had the chance to "say goodbye" to the old neighbourhood, may, decades later still carry that "unfinished business" with them and need to go through the exercises of expressing the things that never got a chance to be expressed... Of course that could be a formula for selling books or getting wrapped around the axel of unending therapy... but the proposition was that it would, ultimately, be a freeing exercise.
My mother passed away just last evening and I wanted you to know that I found this video very interesting, and strangely comforting.
It also helps explain to me how I was so effected by the recent death of someone I knew only online, first playing games with him a decade or more ago, and then watching him on UA-cam, and watching his channel, grow to over 2 million subscribers and him becoming one of the biggest names in online gaming journalism and champion against anti consumer practices by gaming companies.
Thank you Dr. Weinstein for sharing this with us.
I lost my daughter 25 years ago, she was only 6 years old when she passed away and it still hurts so much 😪😪😪😪😪😪
There is a theory in cognitive science that memory in humans extends beyond our brains and we actually "store" moments or memories within the memories of those closest to us. Many individuals who have cohabitated for a long period of time with a significant other who find themselves suddenly without that person, say a loss from a death or even a divorce of a spouse, speak of the loss almost in terms of an amputation - "a part of me is missing." This can actually be very true. We begin to rely on people to recall certain things and function in harmony with us in both thought and action. Over the years this symbiosis creates a sort of mental fusing where two people, while not physically connected, share a bond that is almost just as palpable.
I wish you would have discussed post break up grief. When a person hasn't died, but the relationship ends, either they betray you or they stop liking you, whatever. Especially in the case of treason, I think Jordan Peterson explains this really well, it breaks up your life, you get so confused becuase you don't know where you are anymore, what you thought that person was, isn't, and what you thought the past was isnt' true, so you need ome painful reframing.
Personally I spend around 3-5 years grieving over someone like that, other factors definitely are involved, but I got so surprised when you talked about the periods in between grief that you feel normal and functional, I definitely experienced that yet I thought that meant I had overcome it completely.
Very interesting video!
Also when you were saying dreams and grief are badly represented on film, have you seen Mulholland Drive? At least to me, that one nails it perfectly
My father said, "Take the marble off the steps NOW!" Or, "Move slowly . . . get hurt slowly" (example: working in a low ceiling attic with nails protruding) and scores of other wisdoms that have become part of me.
Excellent discussion. 1) My only observation involves grief for people who are still living...., and 2) my question involves cases where there is no obvious grief exhibited (which you touched on re: humans); specifically in dogs...
We always get cogently expressed erudite good sense from Bret Weinstein. And what a marvellous interviewer in the shape of Benjamin Boyce! One hardly knows he’s there but he draws out such insightful wisdom from his subject. Interesting posts from cat owners who have observed grief expressed by their pets. Unlike the other highly intelligent social animals, cats are neither
Thanks. Lost my dad, who was my anchor and mentor in almost all things, and everything you say mirrors my experience since then. (2014)
A year and bit on, I'd just like to thank Brett, and Benjamin, for this video. Looking back it helped me considerably deal with the passing of my elderly parents in Sept 17 and June 18.
I would venture to say that, if your grandfather is still present to you because of your willingness to have his presence remain, you have not “lost” him, like you can “lose” car keys due to negligence. Thank you for this lovely speculation.
I appreciated hearing the bit about already being prepared for the loss of someone and to not feel guilty for not needing to grieve after they actually die. My parents were a generation older than most of my peer group’s and I began anticipating their death at a young age so by the time they died I felt I’d done all the work already, but other people didn’t understand this.
it's nice seeing bret loosen up and be more casual/lighthearted at the end there...just something i've never seen from him
Great video. Im 18 and recently lost one of my best mates who's also 18. Was a complete shock was supposed to meet him on that night, one of the most motivated and hard working people ive met and always tried to encourage me as i have no motivation:). Its been like 3 months and i still dont have the words for it, someone to just poof into the wind is quite ungrouding.
In addition to everyone's advocating Bret to make more videos on the philosophy behind evolution; love the background. Great setting for the interview!
What an amazing explanation of grief! I never thought about it this way, fascinating and illuminating
We grieve our own deaths 'ahead of time.' This is obvious. We aren't going to be bothered by death (or anything else) when we're dead. The time to realize that our ability to experience things will be taken away from us, and to lament the loss, is when we're still alive to contemplate this prospect.
WEinstien is Such a brilliant mind and so likeable, too! This also added to my understanding of grief - yes, others are wired into our nervous system and we hit upon little wired -in pockets less and less as our life carries on and we need to deal with the new challenges and new people creating more and different wiring connections. ....and yet, a grandfather can still see through your eyes! Beautiful!
Very important insights. I also sometimes wonder what kind of signaling our unconscious mind may be involved in toward other unconscious minds. For instance is there an aspect of grief that signals to the social group to take some action?
Fascinating
I do depend on my dog(s) in a big way as a replacement for family. They have always been there for me, a constant, so a combination of elder and child loss. Tom Petty's music was the soundtrack of many important moments and I never realized it until his death.
Hey Bret great video! I was wondering if you could do a video on the evolutionary meaning of depression (clinical). It seems counterintuitive for individuals to undergo vegetative states and experience adhedonia to me and be such a prevalent psychopathology. Keep up the great work
i’d love this too.
Yes.
I would also love to hear Brett's thoughts on this topic. It's something I have wondered about before, and I think it has to do with cutting out distractions and ruminating. There's an awful lot of thinking and internal dialogue involved with depression (which could be very beneficial), and I wonder if it was something that started out as adaptive, but can get out of control and become counter productive.
The metaphor in my head is something like an auto-immune disorder, or an allergy, where the immune system identifies something innocuous as an enemy, and then goes into overdrive and actually harms itself. I wonder if our ancestors had to be able to deal with such difficult circumstances that they developed an emotional immune system, but like a sterile environment leads to allergies, our attempts to make modern life much safer and 'trouble-free' has lead to an increase in depression. Situational depression has gone down dramatically, but depression for seemingly 'no reason' has become more and more prevalent in the most 'developed' countries in the world. I want to elaborate, but I haven't thought it through yet.
Excellent thoughts, Donnie Dread. I too would like to hear Brett's thoughts.
'safer' and 'trouble-free' is an interesting claim. While I can see that with an objective, physical-threat analysis, this is true. My difficulty accepting the idea that we can describe this to be the case intellectually, is that all the threats immediately present in society are typically abstract in nature, or have such a significant non-physical value as to be easily misapprehended as 'not a threat'.
Consider the case of my losing my income. The money I gain from it is abstract, the absence of money is an abstract value, the mortgage on my house is abstract, the bank deals in abstract values, and so on. The social factors are abstract, if I don't work, I am not fulfilling the ideals my parents or partner place on me, my peers won't respect me if I remain unemployed, and if such a state is perpetuated for some length of time I will no longer have friends, the people who respect me, respect me on the basis of abstract criteria. At some point there is the abstract idea of failure that must be dealt with.
We hate people over abstract social items. It doesn't matter whether I work physically or not, it is whether I am paid for that work that counts, whether I am 'independent' or not. Something like this.
In addition to this type of abstract threat, which looms because I am a wage-worker in a company that could replace me with a robot in the near future, there is the MSM, informing me about how threatening the world is, how large the government is, how vicious the criminals are, how useless the millennials are, how entitled the pensioners are, how low the birth-rate is, how crazy the liberals are, how hateful the conservatives are, and on and on it goes. Most of these problems are not problems I can solve. If I am presented with a large number of problems I cannot solve, how do I resolve the sense of threat?
My point is, if it isn't already obvious, that we do not live in a trouble-free era. We are told about countless troubles we can do nothing about (the middle-east, North Korea, Islamic extremists), amidst a set of personal problems the elements of which are not physical, tangible or transient. A wolf is an threat that is measurable, the solution is straight-forward, transient, and if I have a rifle I have the power to deal with it. An employer suggesting to me that perhaps a robot could replace me if I cause problems for him is a far more abstract threat.
[Note that the example of an employer threatening to replace me is a fabrication for the sake of argument]
Good thinking, Donnie, I would suggest that the 'trouble-free' premise, even in a relative sense, is false. The threats are simply different, and this difference in the nature of perceived threats may actually be part of the problem.
Dave Wilson this is all good stuff, and well thought out. There are myriad chronic stressors, some of which can debilitate us directly or indirectly (eg. drug addiction secondary to chronic severe pain, or severe anxiety/insomnia). The threat of brutal social stigmatization atop already harsh, or even horrifying struggles, create a sense of unavoidable ego catastrophe. If not death, then a sense of looming, abject failure of an almost unbearable kind. Again, the stressors are now largely chronic, and egoic/emotional, rather than transient and existential.
"Grief is the downside of love." Spot on!
I was with my brother when he was diagnosed with esophageal cancer, I found out he was stage 4 and landed up telling him he had a 4% chance of living for 5 years. He went from being clinically obese to looking like he was anorexic in 9 months. I was upset before he died but not really upset after he did die. I had told other family members to get comfortable with the idea that he was going to die, he lived in my house so I did see the whole thing until he went into oblivion.
He might not be the most famous and charismatic inside the IDW circle, but I think that he's the one with the widest view on things.
Bret, keeping making these videos. People crave pure unadulterated, calm and thoughtful conversations in science and philosophy without all the crazy sensational graphics, click bait, and political/social and cynical garbage that tends to creep into these subjects.
This moved me. Thats what I love about Bret Weinstein, its science but it has all the feeling and emotion of religion
This is so interesting! I originally found you as many did via evergreen, but as time passed I find your explanations of biology so much more interesting! You are an amazing professor!
Grandfather looks through my eyes . . . Fascinating thought.
Thank you for sharing your intelligence and wisdom with the world.. we’re better off as a species for it.
Finally bret! You got to post more!
Cats can feel grief 100%, both acute (crying out when finding a dead friend) and prolonged (not eating for weeks and looking almost half their weight).
I have seen this myself on several felines since I work with them for many years. For me this is indisputable.
I love the fact that this was pulled from a conversation with Ben. Good work guys! Remarkable discussion as always. Keep talking.
I'm so glad you made this
Thank you Bret this is very helpful!
good points here!
Also, my mom had two cats, and then she had one, and the survivor was in a state of grief for months and month.
This is awesome man. Keep putting these up. Really enjoy them.
True wisdom resonates through time!
So convincing on so many relevant topics. Do we need more? Of course, but without Brett we would be lost
This is worth some serious consideration.
Thank you for sharing your ideas, excited to hear more from you professor!
Thanks for more content Bret. Best wishes for you and your family
Bret, I just found your channel today (your testimony on evergreen was in my recommended feed). Love what I’ve seen so far - this video in particular. I feel the presence of loved ones in situations similar to the one you mentioned about moving a ladder. I feel the presence of loved ones both living and deceased- have you experienced the same?
To the point of the Jewish tradition of not placing a headstone until a year after burial. When my father passed away a few years ago, my mom and I were advised not to pay for a headstone until at least a year after the burial because the earth can shift and settle for a while and it might interfere with the headstone. So I'm not sure if these are related.
I noticed Einstein with a W a while back. Rather appropriate imo.
Intrograte I also think it is a brilliant solution, but you can see what he's saying... Some goofball is going to complain about how concieted he is to compare himself to Einstein...
The inappropriate part is the accidental association with tungsten.
Wonderfully easy to listen and learn from you. Thank you.
Just throwing this out there but I think the outward display of grief also indicates to others that the person who has passed gave value to the tribe and therefore should be emulated based on the amount of grief shown.
What happens if you don't have a chance to grief? for instances your dad passes before you get to know him.
Really nice ideas - thanks!
Thank you for this fascinating series, it tugs right at my sense of wonder and its bolstering my coping mechanisms... more please..
How do you know cats don't go through this emotion? In the USA many people approach death and grieving very much in contrast to say, the Irish grieving processes. Our whole living is about our dying. We need to embrace the reality that we cannot control death.
Eric did an interview where the interviewer made a "one letter away from Einstein" comment.
Eric parried, "yeah but it's also one letter away from Feinstein."
This is great, I suggest you use super chat to allow paying participants to ask specific questions
Excellent - wish you would put these out more often but I know you're a busy man. Who is whacking weeds in the background or whatever?
love that stinger - well done!
Needing this talk. Thank you
LOL GREAT ENDING. Nice levity to 17minutes deep in thought
The unveiling (in Judaism) signifies the end of the official period of both public and private mourning not grief. While they are related, they are also distinct things in which someone can engage in mourning but feel no psychological grief, or be greatly aggrieved but no longer continue to mourn the death (probably the case). I'd be interested to know how well the official mourning period of a single year actually maps to someones typical experience of grieving over the loss of a parent or child. I imagine a year is probably enough for an adult to recover from the loss of a parent, a child, perhaps not. However I have always appreciated at least the idea that one is both obliged to mourn the loss, but also obliged to stop it at some point, as it is not healthy to become fixated on it forever
Shout out to Mr Boyce, who also has his own interesting UA-cam channel. Thanks for posting this.
Love the outtake
Um, okay, but what's the evolutionary mechanism by which grieving helps one to perpetuate one's genes? That's what I clicked to hear a hypothesis about. Not the spiritual-esque notion that grief is the flip side of love, and grampa is still with us if we remember something he taught us, and other such cathartic self-help mumbo jumbo.
What's the _evolutionary_ 'meaning' of grief? Why do we feel it? How did that get selected for by natural selection? What lineage-survival utility does it provide?
The "correct"/German way to pronounce Weinstein, is V-Einstein. The German W is pronounced like the English V (the German V is English F.)
Benjamin Boyce is the interviewer in this, and his channel is fantastic! He covers the Evergreen scandal in great depth, and I highly recommend checking out his content.
I had a cat mother who was griefing about her dead kittens, she stayed days at their side, and she knew they were dead. On the other hand my grandparents had a cat who killed all her kittens without any sign of griefing. So, i would say it is not that easy!
Jordan Hall recently said we go through a similar process as grief when there's any major change in our life. And my mother once said the same thing. I think there may be something in this.
Bret I'll be going to see you and Jordan and Sam on the 23rd of June in Vancouver - would you be available for an interview sometime? I'd like to get your take on the evolutionary utility of ritual practices like yoga. Thanks for your work.
I simply remember I'd like to have a large stein of beer with Bret.
Why not make it be a stein full of wine? Because then it would be a wine stein with a Weinstein.
He should have a Wine-Stein called Brett on his online store,
Now THATS an idea!
James K -- because if you drink wine out of a Stein you're a heathen. Steins are for beer. Not wine. Not whisky. Not soda.
Not water.
Beer.
Very interesting. Make more.
It's like Doc Brown's dog with a W.
Keep them coming!
Bret, do you have any comments on the long term effects of grief on mental health? What happens to a person when they experience several traumatic events in a row that cause their own separate states of grief? What is the limits of grief a person or animal can handle without damaging the mental well-being of the creature?
Dustin M look up stuff about CPTSD complex post traumatic stress disorder.
That tail end clip was great
Grief to me seems like a consequence of a species' evolution to feel love.
This notion of a person's lost loved ones living on within them isn't one I've ever given much weight to. Interestingly, in the way Bret explained it here, it does make some sense, if only as a metaphor or a pleasant psychological trick to play on oneself (something I imagine we do all the time, both knowingly and unknowingly). I wonder if it can't be explained along biological or mimetic lines insofar as one's ancestors really do live on in our genetic material and their teachings (as in the case of a grandfather, as here described) 'run as software' that informs our behaviour and, by extension, our 'self'. With regard to the latter, I guess one could say our notion of self includes much software of a mimetic kind, the most valued of which likely stems from those individuals closest to us, those we view as mentors especially.
Then again, subsuming an element of someone's teachings into one's own view isn't necessarily paramount to some vestige of their personality living on(This, I think, is what Benjamin was saying).
One could argue that we conduct a kind of emulation of an imagined thought process, Bret employs his grandfather's sensibility in beholding the ladder and the danger may pose, maybe he runs a lo-fi copy of his grandfather's personality in assessing his environment.
While this is interesting, I guess it isn't really the crux of the topic.
I understand the hypothesis, or think I do, that the grieving stage is a readjustment or reorientation to a social world that has been altered by the death of an important individual. Why exactly such a process is necessary/advantageous is not, however, entirely clear to me. Would we not be better off moving on immediately, as a cat would after losing a kitten?
Is the suggestion that highly social creatures cannot avoid such a stage? That the nature of their social structures created grief as a sort of by product, or that it is somehow important for an individual to show that they are grieving?
Does a deep investment in other individuals, with all the activation of emotional circuitry that goes along with that, necessitate pain at their loss?(Assuming a creature of high intelligence)
I guess its probably the last of those, if I understood correctly. In any case, fascinating topic, thank you.
There is something I feel he missed when he talked about grieving for John F. Kennedy. I think, it's not so much Kennedy that many people were grieving for, but the idea that nobody would assassinate the US president, that we were immune from a certain kind of political strife. They were grieving for the assumptions about how their country operated that they'd woven into how the interacted with the world.
Freakin love this guy
Foresight is a sign of intelligence.
"If you have other childs."
The Grammar Gestapo will be at your door shortly.
I came for the chimp grief thumbnail, but disappointed to find none. :(
It's possible that one of the reasons for why some organisms experience grief is for the purpose of remembering what they said or did wrong to die. I suspect that older peoples deaths are grieved less. Because it was expected and we know they did nothing 'wrong' to die. Notice that when a person dies they suddenly become more memorable and the things they said are now looked at as more important. When a person dies they become kind of mythological figure and above a normal human being. When a young person dies unexpectedly we think about them. Our minds go into the past and we repeat experiences in our minds whilst feeling sadness. We could think about the neurotransmitters that are released during grief. Maybe it's adrenalin and cortisol. Both adrenalin and cortisol play a role in the strength of memories. And if it's not to remember what they did wrong to die (or what you did wrong to allow it to happen), this person must have been important (and therefore useful) and it would pay to remember their words and teachings. We then can learn from them and at least their death can be somewhat useful
Would you say parental investment correlates with the amount not grief in a species or groups/populations within species?
this is so interesting
Wish my Grandpa had told me about leaving things on ladders. Would have saved me a few potknots!
DAMMIT! I wish there was a SUPERLIKE BUTTON !
There's a way. Write a script to generate 4000 email accounts. Also make the script create and login to their youtube accounts. Finally hit like, then subscribe.
mr bret could exposure to humans by elephants and dogs teach them grief by observation and close relationships with us..primates i can understand having it
Is there more to this interaction?
Incredibly wise man
It seems like Bret wants to explain everything as a beneficial adaptation instead of an unfortunate and maybe irremovable bi product of a different adaptation.
good talk from the einstein with a w
Is that Benjamin in the background?? :D
Bi-Polar would be an interesting topic.
Are you planning on returning to Academia? If so I’m on board to take your class
the right should want a vibrant left? i think the right would settle for a left that's at least able to engage in a conversation. The left needs to provide some articulated arguments about the merit of helping those disposed by the system. No one on the right will ever be persuaded by chanting and ranting.
I would think the grief over losing a dependent would instead be about learning from mistakes made. It doesn't make sense to me that the adaptation-scenario would take that long. Moreover, one would think this would apply to any mammal and bird.
Mistakes made though would make more sense: this takes a lot of analysis. It also has a clear benefit (not dying yourself, or having other children/dependents die by the same errors). And there it makes sense that social animals have more of it: we would get that when a hunting partner dies; a cat wouldn't. Though the cat should still have it when a kitten dies, one would suspect.
And of course it has the advantage of explaining why we don't have seperate words: both are about learning after a death, by revisiting their lives and incorporating the past into ourselves.
Differentiation: one would think that if it's about not repeating mistakes, you would be riddled with "what could I have done differently"... guilt.
A final consideration is social to the core. While this couldn't evolve initially, it could add on, a need to signal that this person was important to us, that we're learning from past mistakes and so forth. As always, the best way of faking it, is doing it sincerely.
I always remember it by thinking “it’s like Frankenstein” lol
That's a beautiful thumbnail, any links to it?
PLEASE UPLOAD MORE