How to add distance and stop rounding with a deeper Pocket
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- Опубліковано 15 січ 2023
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New method for fixing your arm vs shoulder timing. Getting to a deeper pocket and more effortless distance while eliminating rounding.
Great video - I've watched countless slow mo vids of pros and they are all getting the disc past their left pec before ejecting which means the arm has to be faster than the shoulder rotation.
Great points, the key factor in all of this is the head. If the head is watching the disc throughout the pull the shoulders will follow. Im ma40 915 rated, and drive overstable discs 380-400. I was stuck at the 330 until I changed the firing sequence. Now I go fire the hips, arm to right peck, then shoulders, then head.
Great explanation of this concept you and I were talking about
Thanks! Yea, I think I was able to refine it a bit since going over it with you.
Funny how different people find the same idea! Ive played entire rounds using my off arm to prevent collapsing. It looks silly but it works
I agree with you the definition of rounding that's gone around is incomplete. Catrina Williams, on the common definition, would be rounding. Because she often - with her forearm - brings the disc inside her body, to where the body is between her and the moment of release. But the key is her upper arm never goes inside 90 degrees, and she doesn't compromise her ability to bring the disc through the power pocket.
My rounding has been so bad that I've even tried forcing a very wide rail and my upper arm still collapsed within 90 degrees during the swing. I've also done the same trick you have, by putting the off arm in the way, using the offhand to grip the upper throwing arm. My problem has been that as soon as that hand goes away, the upper throwing arm still wants to collapse, because I trained myself to throw incorrectly, and that's ingrained in memory. I'm still working to this day to fix that, but thankfully I'm getting there.
Lastly, some people bring the hand in closer to the body, by angling the disc downard ala Simon Lizotte and Gannon Buhr. There's a recent Bodanza Disc Golf video where that's covered "GANNON BUHR Teaches Me To Throw Farther [400+ Feet Again]."
Yep! Just saw that one. I really like the idea of making more space for the disc to stay tight to the chest and I really dont like the idea of having to roll my wrist the correct amount by the correct time to get the disc back to my intended release angle in time.
I think that works well for some naturally very talented players and is a bit of a consistency trap for most of us… where a more simple - keep the disc on the intended release angle the whole time - will yield better results.
But I would also like to spend more time with the ‘disc suitcase’ method that gannon uses.
@@_TDG There's an old adage that I've seen used for art and literature. You need to learn the rules before you break them. And that likely applies here. The backhand throw is very much an artistic endeavor as it is a technical one, and ultimately people will need to find what works from them, based off proper technique.
Great stuff. Any info on progressing drill into a walk up with hip rotation? Maybe a future video…
That would be good… but in my personal practice I really found that the understanding I got from this drill carried over to different throw types very easily.
So where usually I would want a very intentional progression I feel like on this one the change is way more likely to just come along for the ride rather than get lost in transition to one steps or walk ups.
Let me know if that’s not what you find and we will make a more thoughtful progression!
Interesting drill and I will def give this a go. However, I am however worried over one thing… isn’t this very dangerous to give bad habits of “pulling” the disc again since we are actively pulling it to get it ahead ?
Ok you make a really good point that I should have addressed in the vid. No one cue is going to be right for everyone and there are definitely players who I would tell to not think about pulling the arm at all. But in reality we do need some significant muscle support in the shoulder to at least keep the upper arm steady relative to the shoulders and at a higher level cause ‘horizontal abduction’ or move the elbow towards the target.
There is a fine line between the amount and type of muscle activation we want and an amount or type that is clearly too much. Its hard to quantify the difference in a productive way, I will try to get a vid about this up soon.
Thank you for the question / feedback. Much appreciated!
Would it help to slow my shoulders down by keeping my eyes/head focused on a spot directly across from me. Kind of like in jiu jitsu, if you control the head you control the body(shoulders/hips).
Great question!
Yes I think keeping the head centered is best. Though maybe it depends on what someones throw actually needs. My understanding is that there is still some debate if the gaze should stay centered or if the head should follow the shoulders. I also think there are pro players that do both.
Centered seems to work better for me, and promotes the idea that we are building a frame that stays centered while we launch the disc. The alternative, head that follows the disc / shoulders, is much more about we are using muscles to 'throw' the disc over there... doesn't seem as productive to me.
Great explanation of the deep power pocket! I'll have to give this drill a try tomorrow. Just a couple of questions:
1) Am I aiming to get the disc to my right pec (RHBH) immediately as I begin to rotate or am I bringing it into the middle of chest and then 'leading with the elbow' to get it to the right pec position (if that makes sense) ?
2) What are the next steps to dial it down and incorporate a weight shift or one step ?
3) Where is the disc released with this drill? I'm assuming around 12 or 1 o'clock?
Thanks Jaleel!
Great questions:
1) Yes, aim straight for Right Pec.
If you aim for center chest THEN right pec its not going to work. You have time for one thing, not two things. The aim point of the drill is to get the disc to a deep pocket asap, then let the momentum in your arm carry you on from there to get a feel for a deep pocket. Theoretically once you have that feel you can then 'pump' the motion even more by extending your tricep after the deep pocket (warning don't try this too early, it will mess things up! the timing really really matters).
The drill is changing your input to the throw by taking you 'probably too far' in the other direction from where you are. Once you get a new feel for what a pocket can feel like you can dial it back to a more functional position that fits in a full walk up.
2) next steps. Try it out! I think you will find its pretty easy to work the new idea back into a more normal throw. The hard part is rebalancing your shoulder turn timing with your arm timing... because if those are off you will have right to left misses all over the place. Step one is to find where the power is, make the disc feel heavy as it rips out, and make sure its going far. Then once you can do that on demand, recalibrate the aim to where you have a consistent hit point and can hit lines again with the new power you've added.
3) Another good question. I was thinking about trying to send it to 12 (12 being directly at the basket / target line). And again that is an overcorrection designed specifically to get the elbow deeper and have the arm commit harder to the idea of projecting force forward so the whip will crack out in front.
So try it 'aiming' at 12 o clock at first. Then adjust that back to a more realistic 11... then try 10. See what makes the most sense for you. Thats what really matters. But I think 10-11 is the consensus on where we would release ideally... This drill does not follow that at first! It will likely end up back there after re-calibration, but don't take my word for it, experiment on your own!
Thanks! I’ll work on it this week and give some feedback here
The main (and only) function of this drill is to teach you the timing of getting your upper arm moving faster than your shoulders can turn. If you delay arm speed at anytime in the movement, you can never catch up and never get deeper into the PP.
@@coach_chris_taylor totally! Glad I got it at least part way right. It really helped me understand the timing issues so many of us struggle with. And realizing that its just a timing issue is huge! Many folks including myself spend way too much time chasing over complicated solutions that don’t even work…
Thanks for pointing me to it!
So I JUST figured out my mental que to get to a deep pocket. I realized that I’m not actually “pulling through” to that right peck, I’m pulling TO the right peck. I stood still with a reach back and just repeatedly pulled the disc to a deep pocket, and it’s not a front to back motion, you pull straight towards your body. Then I incorporated my torso rotation and started pulling to a deep pocket and it all but forces you to get the rest of your body into the correct position. Does any of that make sense? It’s kinda hard to explain with words. I’m sure you and several other coaches have explained it this way before too, but for whatever reason it just clicked with me.
Thats great!
Im cautious of activating the bicep, but other longer throwers arent, but if its working its working!
I do think having a stop point to the impulse on the disc can be a helpful cue for some.
@@_TDG it’s not really a bicep activation and more tricep, the forearm stays pretty loose and just follows the hinge of the elbow. It’s more of a mental cue that I had to tell myself because I’m so prone to rounding. It feels right tho, and it sounds like I am cracking a whip with my mids and putters now. Getting a lot more distance with them both, but it has not translated to my drivers just yet, but I have just moved to this, this week. Thanks for all your videos and help btw.
@@jaswan79 ok good! Then yes thats perfect. Just drive the elbow so that the disc comes into the chest.
Hi good sir trebuchet do you do form?
Form reviews you mean? Yep. Check out the patreon:
patreon.com/_TDG
Will try this out. I'm stuck at 400ft.
I think this channel is a hidden gem btw
Thanks! Glad its helping!
The “if disc can’t see the target it’s rounding” is totally BS! I like seabas’ definition of it’s when your trailing shoulder gets in the way of the disc. Or that you’re “hugging yourself” rather than the disc
Yep. It holds up at a beginner level but not at long distance…
@@_TDG Referring to the "disc see target" right, not the "hugging yourself" part.
@@seabas22 yes! Your battering ram stuff is legit… as long as we dont hug getting the disc behind us is ok and even beneficial for long throwers.
the ice box hoodie had me gasp. you're in washington? wanna hit me up and trade disc golf lessons for pinball lessons?
Ha! Nice… totally. Do you play competitively? Im actually a repair tech at an arcade in Seattle.
@@_TDG ig me maxcosmoishere I was top 24 wa State and top 500 😹🤘