Library of Errors | Contested Bones: Homo floresiensis
Вставка
- Опубліковано 8 жов 2024
- Here we look at pseudoscience books, typically Young Earth Creationism Texts, and we examine them for robusticity and accuracy. It ALWAYS goes well.
Today we cover the Homo floresiensis chapter of Contested Bones, a book aiming to overturn all of human evolution (paleoanthropology) written by a guy with a BS in biology and a Plant Geneticist. Is our "Hobbit" cousin just a degenerated Homo sapiens? No, of course not.
Intro: The Mind Electric by Miracle Musical
www.hawaiiparti...
Outro: Point Pleasant by Brock Berrigan
www.brockberrig...
Sources:
www.sciencedir...
www.pnas.org/d...
journals.plos....
www.nature.com...
www.science.or...
pubmed.ncbi.nl...
Of course Hobbits are real. They're even in our history books. Four helped save the world with thirteen people of short stature and a fireworks salesperson with weird taste in hats.
So rude to erase their rich culture, very distinct from that of their contemporary humans!
And they turn into apple trees right when they die?
Hey, no need to be hattist! I for one stand with our tall coned and unreasonably wide floppy brimmed hatted brothers and sisters - solidarity!
And stranger eyebrows.
I saw a 3 part documentary movie about hobbits, so they must be real.
Nice to hear a paleo-expert talk about this.
Oh no, her ulcers…
@@alisaurus4224 exactly poor Erika
You might be the only person who's actually READ this book, clearly at the authors did not intend for it to even be read.
It was intended to be a trophy on a shelf so the con-men who assembled it could call themselves "authors", and something for conspiracy theorists to point at and say "here's a book that proves my conspiracy true" without actually reading it.
"No intention for this book to be read," yet here we are discussing it, which may tempt someone into reading it. We can try to actively ignore the book, but doing nothing about its cover is problematic. People can see it if displayed....or think about it. How much harm are we doing by watching someone who has read the book talk about a book that shouldn't be read yet reading it is necessary to understand why it shouldn't be read?
@@chutechi When they said “not intended to be read” I think they were making the point that the people who wrote it didn’t intend for it to be read in the sense that reading it wouldn’t actually give good evidence for what the book is about. So it’s meant to sit there as a “see, these people wrote a book about it so they must know what they’re talking about, so I’m definitely right.”
Interestingly when you were discussing wrist morphology and the link to tool use, in the 1990's Anthropologists Nick Toth and Kathy Schick taught a bonobo chimpanzee named Kanzi to knap a stone to produce blade/scraper stones.
The stones knapped are simple, but as Kanzi got further along in the process, he was able to manipulate the rock safely and produced quite a few shards.
This is a bonobo using symbol keys to communicate with a fairly extensive vocabulary of around 800 words. (Though the screens only show about half of these).
Kanzi referred to the shards as "rock knives" during the exercise. His handler was able to encourage him to really work at making the tools.
The degree to which a wrist needs to articulate in order to create very basic stone tools isn't too extreme. (Although to be fair, a bonobo chimpanzee has a comparatively wide range of motion, given their ability and adaptation to/for climbing and locomotion in scrub forests and the middle to upper stories of jungle/rainforest environments.)
Interesting video Erika.
No, they don't. Everything is made by a clue of the experimenter, as with other animals. Also, all primate "usage of the language" results are a deliberate misinterpretation of the same experimenters, with no independent corroboration.
Omg that's so cool. Rock knives is a good term
Aw man, didn't notice this going live, so I'm like 40 minutes late. Here, have a comment while I get caught up...
Welcome back. Love the chart. It’s one of the things that even non-specialists will understand. They may not understand the specifics but they’ll see a list of claims and debunking of claims.
Brown came and spoke back when I was in college and we got to do a small group meet with him in advance for just the members of the Anthro Club. As I remember (and this was 15 years ago) he wasn't initially involved in the dig. The excavation was being done by a group of archaeologists and they only flew him in once they realized they'd found something unusual. He arrived and asked them jokingly why they weren't just backhoeing the first few meters off to get to the good paleoanthro stuff.
And you've definitely got to love creationists reliance on the Potter Stewart method of defining humans.
Interaction. Support support. Share. Like. Subscribe.
This is me being supportive while being sleepy and not knowing what to say. Much love yall.
Where is the “this is my favourite channel” button?
Thank you for breaking down these arguments! I did a deep dive into the research in 2011 for my anthro BA capstone. I came to the conclusion based on the evidence at the time that H. floresiensis is a distinct species that underwent dramatic speciation due to the island effect. I have lost touch with the research since leaving school (I sadly do not work in the field - I work in law now) and I value your analysis!!!
So excited for Homo floresiensis! I did my capstone research paper on the hobbit for my anthropology BA. 💕
That is so cool! I wanted to back when I was an undergrad but it still pretty new at the time
Thank you for doing this! I’ve been watching a series of talks about this but they were all older.
I love the idea that the modern human wrist evolved because our ancestors were whacking things so hard that they were regularly breaking our wrists, such that a reinforcing mutation was significantly beneficial. Apparently everything really does look like a nail when all you've got is a hammer.
I find it interesting that when you become the blue gibbon, your nearsightedness is cured...
I just wish I had as much passion for anything as GG shows in this video.
So what you say is considering oneself superior to an ape is wrong superiorty complex.OK i am old fashioned, i think i am more than an ape. Forgive my pride.
@@herzkine why is that important to you?
@@herzkine you cannot be "superior to an ape", because you are an ape; this would be like declaring yourself superior to a human, or superior to yourself. you may be superior to other species of ape, but; what does that even mean? you are smarter than a gorilla, sure, but a gorilla is significantly better at foraging than you; why is one of these a mark of superiority while the other isnt?
@@herzkine Pride comes before the fall...
Some damage was done during temporary seizure by Indonesia by their experts removing the fossils from their jackets, not by the original team. They hot drilled (high speed) the dentine denaturing any genetic code present. Instead the enamel should have been cold drilled, and now many are using ear bones to recover genetic material.
Fantastic work as always Dr. Gibbon.
The GG is great all right, but don't jump the gun, there... let her finish the degree first! 😁
Gutsick Gibbon is my favorite place to come when my son is ready for a nap... that isn't an insult, I get great information while my son exercises his ability to listen actively (normally tiring him out).
Keep enriching the current generation as well as priming the next!
Every time she has to read “paleo experts” … 🤣
You can hear her die inside.
It’s clear the goal of creationists is to retain believers, not to bring in new ones. They have to though, given the trends with respect to organized religion.
Awesome video. Thank you for teaching me these things.
Fascinating! I love how much we have learned about Homo Floresiensis in the short time since their discovery.
I’m quite amazed by homo floresiensis ever since I first read about it shortly after its discovery. The mix of modern and old characteristics sounds to me like we might learn a lot about the dispersal, hybridization and general history of early hominins and late australopiticens from those fosils once we understand them better. I really hope for more fossils.
I take psychic damage every time they refer to it as Hobbit lol
Frodo lives!
My liver is happy that you didn't turn quoting the phrase "paleo-experts" into a drinking game.
I distinctly remember reading an article either in a science magazine (not a publication) or an online free science website that talked about the debate of if the hobbits were humans with microcephaly or if they were a potential new species. This was years ago, but they didn't pull it from nowhere... and I kind of remember the one scientist got in trouble (not like Big Trouble, but like other scientists were a tad miffed) for talking to the media before publication & review. I strongly suspect that the authors of the book were taking their info from those news stories, not from published peer-reviewed papers.
Please note I'm using 'hobbit' because I find it hilarious, not for any other reason.
I like Wolpoff. He was one of the early proponents of the idea that Sapiens and Neanderthals interbred and I remember just looking at him and being convinced.
12:16 well, actually that depends on which area you live in. In the UK, it's "Down's sybdrome".
She's back baby!
Flores is thought by geologists to have been connected by land to the Asiatic Mainland no less than 5mya and probably at about 5mya. Proboscideans in general are thought to be strong marine swimmers and elephants have been documented and photographed far out to sea. 19th century grade trypology names species by morphological distances. Some species, such as some Paleocene mammals, have even higher morphological variation than seen in all of Homo and are identified as species because the different morphotypes grade into each other in small clinal steps in the beds in North America.
love Love LOVE this intro
Creationists dispute all scientific findings and methods, denying the reliability of science at every turn... unless the data can be massaged and fudged enough to fit their pre-conceived notions, then suddenly science is totally awesome and CAN be relied on to support THEIR position.
For no particular reason, you should watch Skulduggery, a 70's film with Burt Reynolds.
Talk of the "Hobbits" reminds of this film because it's about finding a group of hominids in the PNG jungle.
Thank you for teaching.
Homo florienses: The original short kings & queens.
When they claim someone on the discovery team feel its simply diease sapians
That is such a cool intro!
I love it
I love your intro @Gutsick Gibbon.
I read an op-ed recently from an anthropologist suggesting that homo floresiensis may have persisted to as recently as a few hundred years ago based on legends/sightings from locals with care taken to understand how they differentiate primates in their language. interesting stuff.
It is so cool to imagine coming in contact with another hominid which is not human but of near human intelligence.
Creationists?
Adding a comment to feed the UA-cam algorithm 🙆🏼♀️💁🏼♀️🙋🏼♀️🍻🥂🍾🍿🍫🍩🍪🍬🍬🍬
Anyone know why the intro slowed down lately? It's good either way but I was so used to the faster one it makes me think something is distorted... or that I'm having an aneurysm. ;-p
2:52 "420 centimeters" nice
That’s 69 inches…
No it's not? It's 175,26 cm @@christophercanadatheist
@@thychozwart2451whoosh…
People do the same thing with "Lymes Disease". They are often the same people who are challenging the scientific consensus.
The history of Lyme leads to a book called Lab 257..... the dishonesty abuse and neglect of this population gives new meaning to tired of being lied to.
@@chutechi Case in point. Nonsensical conspiracy theories made up to sell books.
Down's Syndrome isn't incorrect though because it's named after the man John Landon Down who first fully described it. Lyme disease on the other hand is named after the location it was discovered.
Thanks for pointing out all the obfuscation in the book. Teuku Jacob was the Indonesian paleo anthropologist who damaged the cranium and claimed the specimen was a diseased H sapiens. This may have been due to jealousy that he was not the discoverer. I am under the impression that H floresiensis is now considered to be a sister species to H habilis. Island dwarfism is now contested since smaller fossils are being found on Sulawesi with similar associated stone tools. One last thing, the people of the Rampasasa Regency on Flores might be pygmys but they sure aren't related to H floresiensis any more than I am. However, for a small donation, they will let you take their picture while they are holding a framed picture of the Hobbit. Their villages are quite remote but since the discovery at Liang Buah they are able to take the advantage to earn a little money. I think this coincidence is hysterical. They are wonderful and charming people. Obviously, I have been to Liang Buah. Thanks for letting me ramble, Paulette
Is the skull model life size? That hobit scull looks almost as big as our speaker is?
you can lead a creationist to the facts, but you can't make them accept the facts.
You can Spam me with and convince me of your facts even, my god is so great he can accept the bible not being literal :-D Evolution is still a not totally proven theory fir me though in some parts, but shiould it get there...Evolution may not have anThing to do with god, but god can titally integrate Evolution.
@@herzkine I might agree with you, but I'm not sure what your saying.
@herzkine - Belief in God is not diminished at all by scientific inquiry. I would even argue that discovery through the scientific method brings us closer to understanding God - whatever you imagine him/her/they/it to be!
@@velvetmagnetta3074 Science disproves creation, threrefore it disproves religion.
@@howardpalys6929 - Well, ok. I think we can reasonably prove that human beings evolved over millions of years from some sort of chemical phenomenon arising from the primordial conditions of earth.
And I also think we can reasonably prove that the universe began billions of years ago from perhaps a single point that then exploded into the spacetime universe we see today.
But, I don't know of any scientific experiment that can be designed and implemented that can prove or disprove the existence of a god or group of gods or some kind of divine being.
I'm just trying to say that religion and spirituality is, as of now, outside of the realm of science.
Maybe one day somebody will come up with an ingenious way to disprove the existence of a god, or a mathematical proof or logical statement to prove such existence.
But for now, religious people should have no fear of exploration of the natural world through science using the scientific method.
There's no danger of your god going anywhere, and therefore no need to try to prevent discovery or learning.
However, there is definitely a need to keep religious philosophies and myths out of the realm of science. Not doing so leaves people vulnerable to pseudo-science and quacks who will prey upon their ignorance to hurt them and society.
Most extant AMHs pygmies of the World also lack ossified chins (though many seem to be unaware of this fact in RAO) including entire regional populations (such as Andanam and Sentinel Islands). The crown morphology of one of the premolars is rotated 90 degrees in Homo floresiensis and extant Flores pygmies, a rare trait. I doubt continuity was directly on Flores Island, more likely ancestral Flores Island pygmies mixed with relatives of Homo floresiensis at some other place in the region. Without genetic samples from Homo floresiensis, there is no way to predict their fertility with AMHs extant pygmies.
Berger et al note shared traits with Homo floresiensis in their publication of Palaua pygmies which they attribute to convergence. Extinct Madagascar pygmies are also noted to share some traits with Homo floresiensis which is also attributed to convergence. By the time Homo luzonesis (Callao "pygmies") were published from new remains more than the original metatarsal, the authors suggested relationship (shared derived traits) with Homo floresiensis, not convergence.
Best wholesome content
Thanks G.G.!
It's absolutely mind blowing how pathologically willing they are to lie within a single sentence. If you have to lie to support your points and conclusions, your points and conclusions are not worth considering.
"paleo experts ugh..."
Who else is so sick and tired of splitters? They are about to split my split ends into nonexistence!
Obviously, I'm a lumper.
Crush them Erika! You're my hero.
Also, already in the comments...third! Let's go, Erika!
I do wonder if they ever met "modern humans". Though it might have ended badly in their case.
Ok going to be careful how I put this, but if this WAS somehow a population existing with a high instance of developmental disorders such as microcephaly and down's syndrome, they would have required healthy caregivers to look after them. For this model to work, it would essentially suggest that there was some sort prehistoric community care going on here, which I'll admit is a lovely concept. But, anyways, having done some previous voluntary work for special needs kids, they need care and supervision from their communities to thrive. You couldn't just have a population with these sorts of conditions be endemic that wouldn't also require some level of care.
To be honest, a community of caregivers is probably the least outlandish claim that I've heard as far as things that have to go their way for anything they say to make sense.
After finding out about how early we have healed bone fossils that suggest family care, at least there's some sort of pathway, but given the evidence against the specimen having Down syndrome in the first place, I don't think it's the case.
Mata Menge Homo floresiensis is dated at bout 700kya and smaller and less Homo erectus like than Lung Bao LB1 (published 2016). In 2017 Debbie Argue et al published a cladistic analysis casting doubt Homo floresiensis as a dwarf of degenerative Homo erectus. First impressions of some were a below Homo erectus grade Homo (or even not Homo), but this soon became very unpopular, and in 2017 this original impression came to dominate thinking with new fossil evidence and the Argue et al paper.
Homo erectus is a synonym of Homo sapiens because Homo sapiens was named first and is a chronospecies of Homo erectus. Not just Wolpoff, Adcock et al noted considerable derived shared traits between late Sundan Homo erectus and some extant and fossil Sahulians which is suggestive of interbreeding and there is considerable other evidence of lack of genetic isolation between late Homo erectus and early Homo sapiens.
Late surviving highly derived Homo erectus look similar to early basal Homo sapiens? No wayyyy
Reasons to think it was not a degenerate modern human:
1. Modern humans always retain advanced material culture no matter how isolated or remote. Oldowan tech is not used by Sapiens. Because better tools mean better access to food, it is unlikely that island dwarfs would make evolutionary compromises that force them to regress to using Oldowan tool manufacture (something that they wouldn't even be aware the details of, and also, Capuchin monkeys which are not related to us increase their tool use on islands to gain access to more niche space, with captive capuchins also in an unusual environment with niche foodsources that require tools to access occasionally delivery producing and using a Lomekwian-like flake to cut things but wild ones inconsistent in even using hammers and anvils, literally a tech gap of millions of years bridged by necessity being the driver of innovation. Islands do not encourage degeneration if material culture) like early homo Erectus. Instead, it is more likely that early Homo Erectus were their actual ancestor and that their prehistory never included Aechulian or other more advanced tools.
2. It shares many features with basal humans and does not share many features with Sapiens. For example, the hobbits were robust for their size. Sapiens, especially anatomically modern ones, are uncharacteristically gracile for humans.
3. The first hobbits arrive before Sapiens even exists, let alone is present in Indonesia. Even if there were, there is no time for such dramatic island dwarfism to occur. The human populations most subject to dwarfism today have average adult male heights of 147 cm. Not 106 cm.
4. Basic aspects of the anatomy of H. Floresiensis do not align with Sapiens, much less any Sapiens population of Indonesia, much less dwarfed populations there. They also do not align with very short people today. Brain volume in particular is of concern. The normal scaling of brain with body size within a given small clade or species not subject to the pressures of island dwarfism years an approximate 0.35 power. Or if we want to simplify a little, scale the body size linearly and you scale the brain size volumetrically. Ergo, we would expect that modern humans that were short but had similarly gracile proportions to us would have 900 cc brain size to our 1300. If we account for them actually being stocky it's more like 1000 cc brain size. This fits pretty accurately with my observation that people I've met who are under 4 feet tall have small heads but not that much smaller. And are still perfectly capable of, e.g. getting a STEM degree. Probably unlike hobbits.
5. In addition to being non-parsimonious, modern microcephaly is not consistent with the brain shape of hobbits. The much more likely explaination is again that they are a radically dwarfed version of early Erectus or similar, since insular dwarfism can produce a dramatically more severe drop in brain size than allometric variation within a species or small clade.
Great stuff as always😎
Thank you.
Wait no, apparently J.R.R. Tolkien had a time machine and planted it...sure.
Their use of "Hobbit" hurts me.
Well, if you are a young earth creationist, you have to lie, it is the core element of the trait.
YEC - distinctly fake news.
@@carlpeberdy9086 Yes, Exactly Correct
I have an insane idea. What are the chances that this is a convergent evolution down the orangutan line?
How far do you have left to get your PhD?
The authors of this books : How disrespectful of paleo experts to call H. Neanderthals H. Erectus and H. Floresiensis not humans! How disrespectful to make them to be sub-humans !
Paleoanthropologists : we never called them subhumans-
Authors of this book : They were *clearly* degenerate diseased humans !
Paleoanthropologists : ....
Yeah that's much better, calling a whole swat of healthy other human species 'degenerated' and 'pathological' homo sapiens/ s
right at the start - you raise the critical question - 'what is the definition of 'human'? But what definition do you use?
We don't have a perfectly concrete one. Because it's a spectrum and 'modern humans' are a part of that.
@@antiksur8883 - that is heart of the problem for me. Definitions are abstract, not concrete. We need a list of the essential (ie, not accidental) features to be sure of what we speak. This I find curiously lacking in the discussion.
@@MyMy-tv7fdThe problem is that if two species within a genus have diverged very, very recently, then there isn't some morphological difference you can point to necessarily, only genetic ones.
@@antiksur8883 my problem with that is then neither of the 'species' then has a definition, everything is just a smear of non-defined things which we call by a name, but we cannot define what the terms mean
In this context Erica's definition is irrelevant - the authors need to give their definition so that readers know the parameters that the authors are working with.
It was originally going to be called Homo floresianus until an astute reviewer with a knowledge of Latin pointed out that it meant "flowery anus". Definitely not a human characteristic. And yes I dp have a source for that. The delightful 2022 publication Little Species Big Mystery by Debbie Argue.
I knew Matt Tocheri in school and heard some of the progress of the investigation from him so I was happy you met him and mentioned his paper and conclusions. (I am not a "paleo-expert" :) He has impressive talent in other areas as well, including music and in my field.
Are most of the arguments from contested bones super racist or is that just how it sounds?
I wonder if she laughs her way from cover to cover across the creationist books she dismantles.
Because if she does, we don't need to feel bad by having her read through all that BS.
Do one where anthropologists determine's whether bones are from a man or woman
Click here for free owl! 5:01
😊
yeeeee
Name of Book please??
you mean Contested Bones?
A comment a comment
👍🏼
15:44
Hyperdegredation LOL it's pure cope
Thats a new word for me
It's not ridiculous at all to assume homo floresiensis could still habe surviving isolated population especially when there are many local myths about such living creatures
The Australian aborigines have stories of the big flood which was when sea rise happened about 10,000 years ago that flooded the land that is now the great barrier reef.. the legends in Indonesia of the hobbit are just ancient stories that were handed down through many generations
@@markshort9098 that's certainly possible but based off of our understanding of other species theres plenty of enviromnent for the species to survive into modernity, there have been modern situngs of pigmys in the areas as well but due to the revlusive nature of these individuals there has yet to be one studied to determine its species
PNAS joke.
That was a rather flaccid PNAS joke.
insert PNAS joke here
@@Fade2GrayOG After much long, hard chewing over the meat of this topic, I've decided to K.I.S.S. with the PNAS joke. The PNAS shall stand on its own.
Did anthropologists compare them to marmosets? How about tarsiers?
🤣😂
I love how some anti-science people present as evidence the statement, "many scientists believe [fill in the blank]," with no references, actual evidence, or even a name list.
And they use another standard tool of misinformation, which is cherry picking or even inventing only phrases that support their stories.
The McElroy brothers are not paleo-experts, and their advise should never be followed. Travis insists he's a paleo-sexpert, but if there's a degree on his wall, I haven't seen it. Also, this book isn't for kids, which I only mention so all the babies out there know how cool they are for reading it. What's up, you cool babies?
under 301 club!
Ha now now children we are all equal.
@Nicholas Time “You’re more than fantastic. You’re my favorite.”
-Nicholas’ mom
It looks like you have lost weight. I have a history of gut issues too. Fixed it to the point where I can eat occational bar food. Ta Da! Gut mucous slime biome biofilm science a good place to supplement and treat. 80/10/10 Diet is a benchmark for optimal disgestion, if you are desparate enough, its worth a try but; transition to this eating style has struggles but its worth it.
All due respect Gibbon, but don't you think you have better uses of your time and intelligence than debunking the flat earther equivalent of the paleoanthrropological community, just low hanging fruit that's all, but don't get me wrong love your channel
What up, is she making Creationist look bad?
We all need a hobby and if you're like me the debunking is also education.
Dont get me wrong, but she totally Loves the money this waste of time brings her. ;-)
Someone must debunk the people who write such garbage as this book. If they do not then, to the layperson at least, what they have written may seem plausible and possibly credible.
The very best debunkers must have all of the skills and knowledge that Erica, and others like her, have.
They can explain most fully why the authors are wrong by showing us where their citations are missing or are incorrect and where their "quotes" may have been mined from, especially where the quotes are in fact from texts with exactly the opposite meaning to that the quoters intended.
As an added bonus, this type of content may be paying for her Ph.D.
@@bushmasterflash yes fair point
𝓅𝓇𝑜𝓂𝑜𝓈𝓂 😁
Second? 😁
Cool & first
🏆🍾
@@markshort9098 Just feeding the thrice cursed algorithm for our lovely Gibbon. Who reads this arrant nonsense and digests it so we don't & manages to make the subject accessible to lay people in the process
The blonde streaks in you hair are sweet! I wish I was younger, I would ask you out... Any way... I love your break down of Homo Floresiemsis and not vapid comparisons or claims by those trying to debunk science by using science. Science will be what saves this planet if ever decide to believe in global warming and the damage we humans are doing to the ONLY planet we inhabit. We are basically using our own litter box as our food bowl. Also I found it humorous that some of the time you said LB1 so fats it sounded like Obi-Wan, you really are into some of these issues! You become very excited, and it show your investment in this area of study, not sure if it is more archeology or more evolution...
I’m sure her husband would love that
"They know one if they see one". Only if you do not count the half of apologists that will tell you the same fossil is "fully ape".