Introduction to Structural Dissociation
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- Опубліковано 24 лип 2024
- In this video, Dr Mike Lloyd describes the organisation of structural dissociation, drawing upon clinical expertise and research by established authors in the field of dissociation. The key signs of structural dissociation are also highlighted, including attachment perspectives.
References for this video:
Ellert Nijenhuis, Onno van der Hart , & Kathy Steele (2010) TRAUMA-RELATED STRUCTURAL DISSOCIATION OF THE PERSONALITY, Activitas Nervosa Superior 52:1, pp1-23
Ellert Nijenhuis, Onno van der Hart , & Kathy Steele (2006) The Haunted Self: Structural Dissociation and the Treatment of Chronic Traumatization
Charles Myers (1940), in:www.apa.org/monitor/2012/06/s...
Janina Fisher, Ph.D. (2014) The Treatment of Structural Dissociation in Chronically Traumatized Patients; In Anstorp & Benum (in press). Trauma treatment in practice
I think its ironic that i dissociated through this video and now cant remember any of it lmao but ill make sure to rewatch
I think this might be a repeat… but I can’t seem to maintain concentration…
Same
Lol yep... apparently I've viewed this before yet don't remember it, here we are again ahha
That happens to me alot when i am supposed to learn something
Lolllll
"a cluster of states"
hi I love this way of putting it, instead of describing it as multiple people or personalities. I mean, my alters and I *do* feel like separate people, but at the same time, we're not? because we're all part of one big whole and couldn't really exist without each other.
also WOAH. i have diagnosed bpd and suspect i have osdd-1b. didn't know bpd had secondary structural dissociation, but it makes absolute sense.
for an upcoming topic: Just how denial works for the host and ANP's. For example we have a hard time explaining how our host didn't know for 40+years and no one around us picked up on it either. We hear from lots of plural people with the same issue but DID in the media focuses on younger white bodied female systems and without some kind of representation we lose validity even among mental health professionals.
We would love to hear about this as well, as we are an older system dealing with later age diagnosis.
I would also like to see a video on how denial works as well. It's something I struggle with very much and even with mounting evidence and a diagnosis - it's extremely hard to accept.
Same here. Would love to hear that as well.
We are the same. Late fifties and diagnosed a couple of years ago. We are an OSDD1 system and we snd others passed it off as being moody, conflicted, and overanalytical.
over analytical.
Thank you for continuing to offer accessible educational content about DID and how it works. The community is ever-grateful for the work you are doing.
Thank you for caring.
Thank you for helping survivors.
Thank you for making a difference.
Seriously, I can't stop thanking him either.
I have consumed this same information elsewhere, but this has the clearest flow and structure. We would find it helpful if you took us further into secondary and tertiary dissociation, along with the applicable attachment theory. Perhaps a series of videos on structural dissociation and attachment conflicts?
Another excellent video. It's great to see someone with credentials putting out information for the public. I do have a suggestion for a future video that I think would be quite interesting. This is the connection between Dissociation disorders and Autoimmune disorders.
I’m also curious about this, have you done much research into ACE’s? It’s a good starting point for how the emotional becomes physical (e.g. changes physiology rather than just being somatic).
Ooh YES!!! I realize that this is a medical/psychological thing, but wow! that would really help. We have all kinds of stuff going on… for example, physical pain. For example, fibromyalgia? For example, multiple orthopedic problems. Etc, etc, etc
That would be the connection of trauma in general and autoimmunity. Not sure how much info was available when this comment was posted, but there is loads of material I've consumed of how trauma (stress- cortisol) impacts the body physiological, which alters the bodies functioning. There are conditions categorized as somatic that are common with trauma (IBS, autoimmunity, etc.)
I've struggled with dissociation for a long time (diagnosed with bpd since 2021) and the general understanding did make sense to me. I was also able to apply some of the characteristics of dissociation onto my own struggles but they've never been as clearly described and explained as with the structural dissociation theory. To me it always seemed like you're either dissociating or not, but I've always felt like the dissociation is sort of like tides that rise and fall but are always somewhat present while I am trying to function or in a complete freeze state. Describing it as ANP and EP is literally bringing me to tears as well as the characteristics you described in the end, because it's putting what I am experiencing into words that one can work with. I want to thank you for this well structured and informing video, I feel like you've unlocked a whole new part of the puzzle that is my brain for me. Now I can try and put the pieces together that were in the dark for so long, and that always gives me a sense of power while feeling so helpless most of the time. Thank you so, so much for that.
Thank you. It is surprisingly validating to have a Dr online describe and acknowledge your way of being in the world. When doctors in person aren't able to.
I am working my way through your videos. Thank you so much for making them.
Wow. Thank you so much for covering the signs of structural dissociation. I found myself nodding along to every single one of those, and naturally looked up the article you referenced from Janina. I can see that being very helpful in those times when the denial kicks in. I might be able to deny the existence of the others by telling myself I’m just making them up (even while I can hear them telling me they exist or having them take over the body to prove it 🙃), but denying those symptoms...nope. Those things are very obvious, even to me when I’m in that denial mode. Thank you!
Thank you Dr. Mike!
Thank you for your time and effort making this video. Looking forward to future videos.
I believe this may be the answer I've been searching for most my life. I wish I could find the words to measure my gratitude. My deepest most heartfelt thank you for creating this video and explaining this. ❤️ My ANP & EP felt every word.
You are truly welcome. I am so pleased this has helped you!
Great talk. Thank you.
We're always happy to see your videos.
-Patrick
This makes so much sense 😭
Thank you for this video and for the reference material! I appreciate your obvious compassion and commitment and find this to be very valuable.
Another awesome video!
Thank you for posting. I now understand far more than I thought I would.
Wow am I glad I found your channel. So easily explained its amazing!
Thank you for sharing so many informations about dissociation.
I can't tell you how bloody brilliant you are. Thank you incredibly so much.
Another fabulous video. Thank you so much :)
This is so enlightening and validating. I can see all this in retrospect now and it gives me some very valuable tools to move forward. Thank you.
The comment about rigidity was helpful. We hadn't heard that expressed before.
Thank you for so clearly explaining structural dissociation. So well said. 🌺🌟👍
Got diagnosed with DID last year in March and this gives a bit of insight for our system... Thank you for this
Excellent pithy summary of and useful introduction to structural dissociation with excellent references attached.
Your graphics and editing look so much nicer compared to your other videos. Keep up the good work!
Thank you so much! I have never done anything like this before and am learning with each attempt. Any editing hints are appreciated!
Thank you so much. I’ve been reading this book like a textbook for years. It’s helped me more than any book about trauma. But I smiled when you said it was “very, very readable” 😄 I found it so hard to read. They use their own sort of language, and often I have to read just one sentence over and over. I simply plowed though it because it really has given me a structural system by which I could better understand my trauma.
Thank you so much, as I’ve never heard anyone speaking of this. So helpful. 💖💖💖
We love your videos.
Thank you!
A lot of this rang true for me as one of the ANPs/hosts of my system. It also helped me to understand a particularly difficult alter and maybe where he might be coming from as an EP(I think, maybe, this is what he is according to your video) who holds a lot of trauma. It's also brings a bit of a relief because it explains the loss of time I experience not just historically but day to day as well. Thank you so much. I really enjoy your videos! 💜
Kasheek Milliken thank you for the feedback. I never actually refer to alters as EPs in the day to day work, unless they want that word used. It seems far too impersonal and clinical, though useful when showing how the structure is formed.
Great information! I think it would be so cool if you and Janine Fischer would do a livestream together sometime! You are both helping so many who struggle with dissociative disorders. Thank you.
This is an excellent explanation!!🎉❤
This is so helpful thank you so much
This helps me understand amnesia/repressed memories better. My memories surfaced backwards in time over the course of 30 years. First with daughter at age 6 months, then trauma at five years old, then at 16, then at 20, and lastly at 50 years old. I seem to have remembered traumas that occurred backwards in time. I know of 7 alters so far. You certainly help me make sense of things, as well as help me ask questions and work on these traumas with my counselor. Thank you!
You are most welcome, I sincerely hope this helps you in your journey!
Wow. Thank you
Think this was a first listen to this one, thanks !!!
The haunted self!!! I have that book! It’s a bit dense but it has helped me a lot
47 seconds in and you've already lifted up a book that's been in my "to buy" folder for years. Making me want to buy it more. I really should.
Oh boy, you mention that alters can tell a lot about a person's trauma (I have no memory so I'm paraphrasing-ish) and that's VERY TRUE. We've been doing self analysis for years and figuring out exactly why each of us formed, and why. It's good fun actually, once you're healed, to examine the patterns, the deeper meanings behind an alter's creation. (Though not fun to spend so long in certain memories.)
What's odd about us though? Age is completely irrelevant. Of course there's a specific reason for that with us.
Ah the conflict! I rarely hear people talk about that side of things. I've been back into consuming DID content since my return to the internet a few years ago, and it took over a year to encounter anyone who was talking about it. I'm glad you mentioned it so early on. Explaining that part to people helps explain the disorder, the logic behind it, as a whole in my opinion.
I was nodding casually on the memory gaps thing, thinking of my own, thinking "yeah, very good general information." Then you mentioned forgetting skills, and I'm very glad. If anyone ever asks why I can't speak certain languages anymore, I can point them to this video.
I love the inclusions of references at the end. And I love how you also go back as far as the 40s when talking about the history of this. A lot of sceptics think it's a modern thing, and trendy now. (There are some kids treating it as a trend, but I try to ignore them, but they don't help those sceptics.)
I'd be particularly interested in a video on the history of dissociation, and in particular DID/MPD. For example, there's an account I'm planning on reading soon that I think will be facinating. It's a personal account of someone using the term "dissociated personality" to refer to themself all the way back in 1909. I think a video on old personal/professional accounts, very old studies and cases of potential DID/MPD and other dissociation-related stuff would be fascinating. And it'd also be helpful to those sceptics thinking this is all new. I mean, the account I found alone proves that this has gone back at LEAST a century, with roughly similar terms too.
Of course, more educational stuff is way more important. It's just a thought for some day in the future.
Anyway, as always, excellent and helpful video.
MR System it is a great book. I am lucky that I have met all three authors and have personal messages from them written into my copy!
The ISTSS Complex Trauma SIG, has some really old research papers that shows a lot about the history.
I have read The Haunted Self. I want to warn people with DID not to read this book, as the knowledge contained within can seriously jeopardize therapy. For everyone else, it can be extremely useful, but it is not an easy book to read for the layperson. This is the book that helped me wrap my mind around dissociative disorders. If there is one book you need to read to understand how the dissociative person's mind operates, this is the one.
I'm finally mustering up the courage to watch all of these videos from the start of the channel up to the most recent. I subbed way back when it was first introduced but for whatever reason watching videos and doing research on DID/OSDD fills me with this strange sense of anxiety and fear. Probably due to how much of it rings true to my own experiences, making me have to come to terms with it and not be in denial. I've known about how things are for me for years and years now but somehow it makes it more real to hear about it from someone that actually knows their stuff. I went to therapy a bit for DID and my dissociation in general but then it was too expensive to continue unfortunately on top of the financial difficulties of the pandemic. I'm thankful for this resource being available due to the vast amount of misinformation spread by others, either knowingly or unknowingly.
A small part of me also appreciates that this validates my feelings and experiences and makes me feel less like I'm making it all up for attention. After seeing how many people mimic aspects of DID as part of their internet persona it made me increasingly worried about my own condition, how I might be seen by others, and even just how I might have been influenced by those other people subconsciously.
Sad to hear about the online experience, this is something quite a few people are saying now. Thank you for trusting in our resources, I hope they continue to help you.
I just ordered the haunted self book today. The new batch of this book will arrive next month. It seems to be popular one atm. I guess many professionals need them too.
This is my primary debilitating trait.
At first I thought that it fit my 18 year old son-who is struggling with trusting me after after we argued and my protector was verbally abusive in response to him getting physical with me. It does have a lot of his traits too. But I see that even more it’s mine.
Ty. I have been criticized and misunderstood by drs,therapists,friends,family for experiencing symptoms and difficulties I sought medical help for only to find nothing wrong. Realized another of my psychological stress was being expressed through my body. When I figured that out a lot of questions were answered. Thank you for explaining what you do it eases my mind and helps my perspective. 101222
You are welcome, thank you, too!
💜🕊🙏blessings
Let's talk about the picture of the spider on the wall behind you.....
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.
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Also.... This describes my life quite well. Memory problems, fear of abandonment, dread when deciding who to tell etc etc. great video as usual. Very clear and easy to understand. Thank you!
Glad I'm not the only one who had this kinda thought... can we discuss this spider on the wall?
I will explain in a video this weekend! And its been moved...
@@thectadclinic oh goodness, you didn't need to move it! It was just fascinating and I'm sure it has an interesting story.
great video. just wondering if you could also touch on level 2 structural dissociation found in CPTSD.
Thank you so much for making these videos, we’re all really appreciating your content and the fact that you’re raising a voice advocating for education and empathetic understanding of systems.
This video really touches on something we struggle to balance in a way that is not black and white and I want to raise this question for you and hear your opinion on this.
We are a system of 7 who have all been working extensively these past few years to understand our individual selves and how we work together or against each other.
Across the board we feel very boxed in by labels such as ANP and EP. While each of us have our own tendencies toward certain learned behaviors and patterns that helped us to survive a traumatic environment, I don’t feel that any of us could be reduced to a PTSD response of a singular way of being. There were certainly times in life where we did operate that way, times we still do, under extreme stress. However, we all at times feel sad, happy, angry, want to run away, want to move toward etc.
I see so many other systems finding understanding in these labels and terms and I constantly wonder if I’m simply being triggered and not hearing this information correctly or without my own biased filter. I’d love to hear your take on this and what you’re hearing from my experience.
Thank you, and I/we look forward to hearing more of your videos and having a place to really lean into this information.
-Aubrey
Fioza Cowan agreed, I don’t think any labels are useful in helping understand the entirety of personality/identity, more a way of understanding structure, so it is very simplistic. No clinician I work with, including my own view, sees identities (alters) in pure ‘EP’ terms. Remember, this is language originating in the 1940s that is constantly being worked on and updated. It does massively help in educational forums though, especially when helping people who have never come across DID before, to understand what it is.
If I am allowed to recommend a different book: Part III of the Trauma Trinity by Nijenhuis is way easier to read. :)
Adaption system Great recommendation! Just ordered it, definitely about time I did...
I just want to say, what all four my personality's fragments are enjoy your video ✨
Thank you- please make a video about subsystems. I have layers. 3 that I’m aware of so far.
Also, if you can talk about fragments, too!
And I’m curious about the Polyvagal theory and Lanius belief that for DID to occur, the threat of death occurs within the first 11 months of life, followed by more chronic abuse later.
much needed station - thank you so much 😊
I've never heard of this! Ty! Something interesting to read on😉
I have just listened to an interview with Kathy Steele - and see that her orientation is definitely that integration of parts into one self is the goal. That's not how I have understood you are primarily oriented, Dr. Mike. Could you comment on opposing orientations on 'integration' please. Thanks
I think it is interesting that the lack of trust and confidence in the medical/psychological/therapy specialists is itself a symptom of the illness when in fact after having been to so many therapies nothing has in fact helped. Seems that the good doctors themselves have a problem admitting they have a problem.
Thanks a lot for this 🙏
There are many other topics we'd like to see explained, such as what is doable for a self aware system who doesn't have access to proper therapy to still work towards functioning better?
AntojO Otero TheMany Actors-Performers Great topic, and one that will sadly be applicable for many. I will definitely do one on this, thank you for the suggestion.
Don't forget about the faint response please.
Love you too do one on did coexisting with bpd be so appreciated
I like to think of it as being a pane of shattered glass. Depending on the lighting, I can be any permutation of my attributes.
I love spiders and tarantulas so yes!I love that photo in the back!
Hi, Mike, much of this is pretty good, but please do understand that the reason folk with DID are in & out of therapy and that treatments don't seem to work is not due to the person having DID or being "too complicated" - but a lack of education and acceptance of DID as even being a possibility. So many therapists are blind to what's going on in front of them, at no fault of the client. The hope would be that it does NOT take a protracted history of seeing many therapists as a sign of "Maybe it's DID" - that's a failure of the industry not a feature of a disorder; it's not a diagnostic criteria and SHOULD NOT BE.
I consider 6-8 years to get a proper diagnosis to be the industry letting people down. If training programs, degree programs, if they took this disorder that according to the DSM is over 1% of the general population seriously, and gave it the attention and time warranted in terms of classroom time and focus on differential diagnosis and spotting signs of dissociation that it deserves then we wouldn't be talking about such a protracted history of misdiagnosis and being so disappointed time and again in the therapists (thus having to find new therapists) - or being told that one is being resistant or cannot be helped by so many therapists as is often the case.
The industry really should be ashamed of itself. There are instructors and supervisors that still "don't believe in DID" like psychology is a religion, and in spite of significant evidence, fMRI studies, etc. - and they will often omit (or demand that their staff omit) dissociative disorders or specifically DID from curriculums.
That's why it takes 6-8 years. Not because of the person with DID, but because the industry fails them. It should be a diagnosis of the industry, not the confused, anguished, client(s).
@ The Crisses . Yes, a million times YES !!!!!!!!!!!
What you said💜😢 bless🙏🕊
Thank you so much for helping us understand better, how and why we function they way we do.
I just recently got diagnosed with secondary structural dissociation disorder but having a hard time understanding what it means for me, as OSDD 1b also makes sense to me.
I would like to understand the difference in order to get us the best treatment and adapt our mindset.
Could you elaborate on that?
I do observe conflicting action parts within me, led me to have lost trust in my decisions in life as they are hard to maintain due to other sabotaging behavior.
Leaving me behind as a smart, skilled person with a lot of potential, that cant seem to be explored and put into use for society.
That lets many of us left depressed.
I hope that resonates with some of you, making you feel less alone on that journey.
I feel you.
Hi Alexandra, I can't really offer much as to why your diagnosis has been done as it has, and the differences. We don't diagnosis anyone with secondary structural dissociation disorder, as that isn't part of either ICD-11 or DSM-V. You need to get clarification on what this actually means from the person who provided it. Hope you get some answers!
I appreciate your fast responsem thank you :)@@thectadclinic
Thank you. I would also like to see something on fawning as I was just getting into that in therapy when I moved towns and had to stop therapy. Our fawning behavior is another way to cope similar to 'fight, flight and freeze', and it has caused many problems over the years as a coping method to keep safe. It has never really worked, but find it hard to stop. My EP's make this difficult as well.
Hopefully you can see the reply I made elsewhere on this - thank you for the feedback!
I can relate I could have written this post it is so familiar.
Mike! Get a stack of books and put your laptop on that. When you leave your lap top on your desk, the camera provides a fine view up your nose. For a good speaking or 'conversational' camera angle, your camera needs to be a eye level. Not below. Oh. Terrific lecture BTW.
The book you mentioned, The Haunted Self, would this be a book that Clients or people who have DID and OSDD can read? Do you have any books you can recommend to people who have DID or OSDD? Thanks so much! As someone who has been recently diagnosed with OSDD(at 49 years old) your videos and information are so helpful! Thanks so much!!!
hell inside the body has been fun.
Feels like you’re locked inside a black hole with different versions of yourself
I'm curious about your view of OSDD-1 and the theorized number of ANPs. We have no everyday gaps in memory and we remember what feels like all of our childhood except the trauma so we consider ourselves an OSDD-1b system. However, we have several ANPs. I've read that people with OSDD-1 are only supposed to have 1. I just kind of ignored that when I read it thinking that these disorders are too complex to fit neatly into all diagnostic criteria but I'm curious what your opinion on multiple ANPs with OSDD-1 is
I noticed you didn’t mention fawn as one of the trauma responses. I’m interested in hearing your view on that? Shouldn’t it be included?
Mikk the people-pleasing (fawning) response is more of an attachment based long-term response, perhaps less of an acute response to immediate threat? i.e. it is developed over time as a method of avoiding conflict; when faced with an immediate fearful situation (such as a gunshot or explosion) it is not relevant (as it isn’t an instinctive survival response like the other ‘f’s) but it is extremely important in the development of a ‘style’ of responding over time to people. Again, it comes down to the difference between acute and complex trauma. Appreciate the mention, as it could lead to the development of a specific EP or personality response over a long period of time.
The CTAD Clinic Thank you so much for that thorough answer, I really appreciate it!
I would put fawn under complex trauma. Definitely have a pleaser alter that comes out when long term partner goes into a rage.
Working on changing my pattern of fawn for it keeps a relationship stuck in a unhealthy pattern.
Been with the same partner since I was 16 which could partly explain why this alter was developed since I was still very young to form a long term romantic relationship and here 35 years latter I recognized the pattern is not conducive.
Another great video thanks Mike. Really informative. There was a slight jar with us about the word ‘split’ partly because it infers there was a split off which is the language that tended to be used in other theories (ie we are a whole being and then shattered versus identity not forming into a cohesive identity state). Also the obvious movie
Amanda Ball the split metaphor is better used with PTSD, the tree metaphor for DID, I think!
These are really helpful. My partner has did and if you are able to do much in how we can help our partners as much as we can it would be awesome
johnathan bennett There is a section on the second First Person Plural DVD on this, but I will get a video out on this topic.
How do you think the fawn response fits into this?
Could you also put bibliographic references and applicable links in the description box? We often watch YT videos on our phone.
All references now posted in the description.
Can primary or secondary structural dissociation occur without childhood trauma and there still be EP’s?
I have combat trauma. I have something I only know how to describe as an “alter”, but there is no social, familial, or other evidence of childhood trauma. This “alter” is distinctly related to combat. If so, I take it it’s not actually called an alter as it wouldn’t be the same thing as in DID. What would it be called?
What about stockholm syndrome type of thing in a system. Where either a part or a conflict between abuser being the attachment and fear of same object in system/ to body etc.
I like the information but I don’t really entirely understand all of it because I am just learning from the very beginning of realization of my own disorder and having a system and trying to come to grips with it as well as being able to get my alters to work together right now it’s kind of hard because I have one his name is Ed Ennius threaten the lives of my altars and myself it was supposed to say ed still is not coming out right and I really don’t know how to spell the word because I’m using the microphone on my phone because I really don’t know how to spell words right that well or read that well and I’m legally blind
Hasn't Van Der Hart lost his license for sumthing very wrong😲 that I won't mention as I don't wanna trigga any1. PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong!☹️
when i dissociate i feel like two sides of me are fighting the angery logical side that denys the trauma and the traumatized which usually leads to self mutilation. would this be what structual dissociation feels like, because i have been trying to find a name for years. its not DID thought its not atlers just two sides of me
Thanks, Dr. Mike, you nailed me on all 7 : ) look at me winning! We struggle with the "shattered" psyche concept or "broken bowl", if you will, used by everyone when discussing DID. Our original takes umbrage with it and as I type can heard him ranting about it : ) Me not a piece a broken bowl, me whole bowl, to quote him. Maybe in the future you can talk more about this. Thanks ~Jessi
Raayna thanks for the comment, Raayna, the ‘shattered’ analogy is often more suited to PTSD, in DID the fragmentation is seen as more of a developmental growth process. Traumatic stress does lead to a split in cohesion, that is the protective aspect of DID, I used the imagery of fault lines to highlight how stress, especially over time, creates disharmony in the natural (non-traumatised) brain.
I think you said that the existence of ANPs and EPs was discovered during war, and is what we now call PTSD. That type of structural dissociation then manifests during adulthood? DID (to my understanding) manifests as a result of childhood trauma. Is the difference in practice largely in the "size of the schism" between the personalities? Ie alters can be more completely separate than ANPs/EPs of PTSD? Or have I got the wrong understanding. Thanks!
Not sure if this answers your question, and obviously you asked him not me :)
But I have just started reading the book. And it states that PTSD = 1 ANP and one EP. More complex trauma/secondary dissociation = 1 ANP and 2 or more EP’s and tertiary (dissociative disorders) have 2 or more ANP and 2 or more EP’s. But as you said, that level of separation is a point too!
So I have a question and forgive me if it's out of place on this video. I have only become aware that I was part of a system in the last few months and have been in therapy this time round for about a year now. We all agree that having D.I.D explains a lot of my past Id rather not go into much more detail than that but its some background. We are our therapist first system and so we are all kind of learning about this together. She seems to think the only path forward is integration which is something we don't have interest in at this point at least and are more wanting to learn how to work together. Is integration the only path for people with D.I.D? Do opinions differ between the US where we are and the UK? And lastly is it okay to not want to integrate? Thank you for making the videos as it is hard for us given the US healthcare system to seek out other people with more experience we have been trying to educate ourselves please continue we look forward to learning more. Sorry for rambling on.
Kami Donohue great question, and highlights a common question. I think people with DID should be able to choose whether to integrate or not, to be able to change their minds as therapy progresses and work out what is best for them.
@@thectadclinic Thank you so much for the response
There are other youtubers who discuss their experience with this as well. We have no plans to integrate, unless some feel they would like to down the line. Functional multiplicity is our goal.
We're in the same boat-- we are also our therapist's first system, afaik, and until a few months ago, we didn't realise that being a system was not how most people's brains worked. We don't want to integrate either, we just want to process our trauma and get better at working together. Everyone's path to healing is a little different, and if yours doesn't involve integration, that's completely ok. :)
(This is speaking as someone who also lives in the US: DID and OSDD-1 are often misunderstood regardless of where you live, but there are definitely still therapists here who have a less rigid view of how to treat the condition and will fit the treatment plan to the goals of the system, rather than the other way round.)
Trigger warning...
Can you possibly do a video about forced dissociation. Like when someone creates a situation to force a child's mind to fracture, in order to create control. Like how does a survivor deal with those hidden parts that have so - called 'keys', and how to protect oneself.
Im curious if the concept of alters could be referred to as "moods"?
I struggle to consider the possibility of DID due to the idea of having multiple people controlling me sounding insane. Prehaps, that's due to the abusive religious system i grew up in treating me as being posessed- not sure but anything religious related i automatically reject. But ive always said i feel like theres more than one of me. My personality can definitely change according to mood and circumstances. Internal arguments have always been a thing- i thought was normal. IE. what you want to believe vs fact, suspicions vs known facts, wants vs needs, who i am vs who i am when triggwr vs who i want to be, and so on.
I always assumed this was typical until i went through immense trauma that triggered original trauma. I feel as if ive floated through the last two years. Im detached, disconnected, avoidant, and am someone i absolutely hate but feel necessary to survive.
Alters wouldn’t be considered to ‘be’ moods, but they may carry a representation of a mood, or emotion, usually related to traumatic experience or defensive process.
Is there a limit to how many ANP’s or Ep’s a DID system can have? Or is just like tree they’re branches are limitless?
Need to have more than 1 ANP to be DID but after that nope, its limitless, just like the amount of alters one can make. There are some researchers who are looking into the correlation between organised abuse and or abuse that includes parents/caregivers = more alters being created and in structured systems internally (ie polyfragmented DID) than abuse that came about from people outside those circumstances. They don't wanna go on record for saying it because people will take it as gospel and run with it (much like how they are cautious of ppl researching and using the ptsd symptoms that are tied with incest and automatically assuming they were abused by a family member just cos some of the sympons of their ptsd lines up...if that makes sense.) But yeah, there is a correlation that the earlier the abuse, the amount of abusers and the relation to the child = greater numbers of both ANP's and EP's and significantly more elaborate systems and internal functionings.
There are no absolutes with this. I think it is worth mentioning that a person with DID should never feel devalued if they have one alter (EP) and not dozens, like they may see or hear about online / in books. DID can be diagnosed with just one, and that can still be catastrophic to that person’s everyday functioning.
The CTAD Clinic so the alters are all EPs and not ANPs?
@@GeekdogsNDID I believe it is a "it depends" thing. If I understood him correctly in this and his other videos as well as videos by others the only requirement is that there are 2 distinct identity states. So I believe to answer your questions at least 1 ANP and 1 EP in this structural explanation.... However outside of that it is completely dependent upon the system. 1 system may have 1 ANP and 3 EPs and another might have 2 ANPs and 3 or 4 EPs.
I don't believe that all alters are EPs... but it can of course be the case for some systems.
I would also agree with what has been said in other comments by CTAD Clinic that these labels don't necessarily work in actual practice and application to the Identities. That their best use is in explaining the structure of the hows and whys.
hope this is helpful.
Dr Lloyd, I read this book and it had a great impact on me,I've often praised the authors on the dedication to their work on trauma. Just today, I was dismayed to learn that Onno van der Hart has lost his licence due to client abuse. Can you speak to this? I know he wasn't the only author and I still believe in the value of Structural Dissociation Theory but I hesitate to recommend the book to others given this controversy. I'm confused, can you help?
I know this was 6 months ago but im very interested in this
I would separate vd Hart as being a professional book author and having a personal unresolved trauma issue that he acted out with a client.
Hey! My name is Roman, I've been diagnosed with CPTSD/DID. Had an extremely traumatic childhood. The content and the level of information on this channel is amazing, there seems to be a lot of noise online.
Thank you for being so informative and taking the time to make high quality content.
Do you ever do any 1:1 online stuff? I'm an "INTP" (MBTI type) - and have a decent understanding of analytical psychology.
Would love to be able to have an actual conversation with someone who truly understands it all.
Thank you ;_;
I wonder if a person "has" a part that is exsausted can deliberately or not, switch to one that is relaxed and not tired? If emotions are locked in an ep part-and then the anp- person just can continue after a tiring period?
No reason why not, it sounds useful, and parts can definitely ’come in’ to help
@@thectadclinic yes, it sounds useful. Everything is not adrenalin.
@@emmalyckajacobsson590 Hopefully you like the video I have just done answering your question! Publishing soon.
@@thectadclinic I have many questions about the criterias for DID and OSDD that must NOT be, like cultural and religious beliefs that accept and encourage sort of a "similar" yet uncounscious splitting of self.. (answered prayers-hearing voices- seeing inner pictures and "feeling" strongly how to solve a problem, sudden energy in life as a gift from the deity/-ies), in a religious context. (That is not an atheistic question)
Can an eating disorder take on a form of structural dissociation?
Dr Lloyd! I’m currently reading The Haunted Self, and this might sound like a random question, but how is “Janetian” pronounced? Closer to how Pierre Janet’s name is pronounced?
Good question, it is pronounced softly, like Zhan-eh, so Janetian would be Zhan-ee-shan
Hope that helps!
@@thectadclinic thank you so much!!!!
ANP: an enduring type of system that involves a large context and is about functioning in every day life.. What the hell does that mean???
More or less what it says, coping with everyday life issues but in a slightly disconnected way.
This is heartbreaking
I’m broken don’t see a way out live New Zealand
I'm finding this so confusing. I feel like there are so many terms for the same thing. Ap, ep, I can't even concentrate on this.
Me. Australian. 52yrs. 30yrs of misdiagnoses. Finally. 4yrs ago CPTSD maternal/tribal narc abuse.etc. Attempt to source professional who can help. Specifically childhood/mother Nope!! Adult relationship? Yes. But nothing for adults desperate to heal. The mental health services in my country are antiquated. I mean. When the patient has to explain covert narcissistic maternal abuse and cptsd,behaviours….Absolutely hopeless. I’m so scared bc I am running out of time. I’m thinking of doing a drop in on Kim Beazely at the Australian Embassy😉apply for political asylum. God Bless America! Without all you amazing professionals. I wouldn’t know anything about me😞
So I have been pointed to this video on the subject that there is no such thing as a core personality. Is that something that is part of this theory you just have not gotten to yet?
Viviana Samakusafifi Hi Viviana, not sure it’s helpful looking at this in such absolute terms. I’m interested in where you heard this, could you point to a reference?
I joined a Facebook group The Plural Association a support group for people with DID and there was a thread about if there is such a thing as a core or original personality. One of the members posted a link to this video. Some pointing to this theory or Frank Putnam that there is no core personality.
@@finsterthecat I guess threads on forums are helpful in coming up with sorts of questions, so thank you for elaborating. I don't work in such terms clinically, as each person is viewed individually, so whether or not there is a core personality would be looked at differently each time. As stated, there are no real absolutes - it could be that a person does not feel there is but one could be there, in the background, hidden by fear / trauma, to be recognised during the course of therapy.
Great video!! You cant see me, but i willnsee you, in the next one 😂😂😂
Can you adresse the stigma of “evil” parts and the prevalence of criminality or risk? Thank you!
Gabrielle Duhamel Not sure what you mean by ‘evil’ in this context, also do you mean stigma from others or from within the system?
@@thectadclinic I mean the stigma of having a "bad" alter in a system. i.e. How it's portrayed in movies like Split. The fear some people have of people with DID and comments like "are you going to hurt me?" or "Should I be worried a bad part of you is going to kill me?". And I think it would be great if you want to address both the stigma and fear of other people AND the fear systems might have about possible darker parts or parts that ressemble abusers etc. Theses are very taboo subjects not address within the community and I would love for it to be distigmatized and address so that we can learn.
@@Msgabrisia . Splendid question !!!! Taboos are always where real meaty material lies hidden ! I know I'm 2 years late: was your question answered at any stage, and if so, in which video? TYIA Regards.
We had some major traumas and the body broke. It can’t talk it was paralyzed blah blah doctors said stroke then no stroke blah blah... the body has never before been diagnosed with anything more than BPD and faking so we learned how to fake it. She can be smart when she needs. We don’t know how to first get a doctor to believe that we are a we and then try and get this broken body with aphasia to explain it without being labeled as crazy? No one can remember way more and like we are stuck in de realization or something? We think if we can fix the body she will wake up? The body not working for three years now and we are getting frightened a little. I sound totally wacko sorry we are just trying to help the body.
Katrina Bond there are good screening tools to work through via our website, one on dissociation and one on physical responses, they could be useful to you.
The CTAD Clinic thank you! one issue I find is I may have three different answers to one question so I have different scores sometimes I can’t remember what I answered the first time... things like that
This book is so well written because its the instruction manual for preditors. I was abused like this on purpose qnd then as i grew _ the preditors trained me to do what they do. Its the epstein jessy show_ just like how and why onno lost his licence to practice_ he got caught doing the pedo dance. The model is spot on_ how to get a stepford wife in 5 easy steps_ ive even had some pedos explain all this too me _ im a very good acting jessy_ you fit or die around these people. Its a messy business this therapy just a ponzi scheme _ stay healthy & run
What's the point of all this clinical analysis? It's just an intricate way of saying that a person is fucked (typically by somebody).
Not in the slightest, it is about gathering information to be able to help. See it as doing the MRI scan to know where to target treatment, or blood tests to know what to prescribe. It may seem detailed, but when it comes to knowing how to help, to guide, to encourage, it is vital!
@@thectadclinic Oh, I'm not critical of the analysis. I also understand it. But what to actually do? Is there truly a way to recover from this - reintegrate and reconcile whatever parts - not just manage/cope?
@@Typhoon792 of course! That is the focus of all our work, the understanding leads to help for a better life, whatever that may mean (as not all about integration etc, that is for everyone)
@@thectadclinic Would you be able to direct me to specific things addressing where to go and/or what to do to possibly recover? I can't live like this...
My apologies for being so crude or blunt in my questioning (and potentially coming across as intellectually lazy). It's been over a year and a half. I need intense extensive treatment on every level (biologically, psychologically, and socially). And I need it free, more or less. If I can't get it, I just refuse to pointlessly suffer and degenerate like this. I literally need to be taken into the hands of a well coordinated group of professionals that provide BOTH wholistic and specialized treatments (simultaneously and in parallel with one another across all different areas). Obviously this requires a controlled and attuned (yet non-restrictive or otherwise highly authoritative) environment with purposeful triggers and stressors for the sake of healing/reintegration or whatever it may be. I cannot be all these things for myself at once and simultaneously lead a normal life; that's hilarious... I would estimate a minimum of three years of extensive treatment of this sort (with a staggering amount of resources to actually do this properly). I'm well aware that no such thing exists (even close), yet alone for free, but I also know that no single thing, especially on my own, can possibly do the trick - to restore and put me back together in any way that I can lead a conscious life again (with all the parts, facets and processes working all together where I could be an actual human being that's contained again within a real person).
You truly believe that anything less/short of that can really address the core issues of such a severe form of trauma in any way that isn't just better coping/skills/adaptation, especially when it's in the context of the world we're in today where even, best case scenario, having any real relationship with the collective would be as traumatizing as a relationship with an actual individual with NPD would be?
I don't like the spider on your wall, I can't watch only listen.
Just want to say wered rr4⁴so glad your videos are nice and short.