Why pop music keeps getting WORSE
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- Опубліковано 2 тра 2023
- Why does pop music keep getting worse? I react to Vox's video "Why we really really really like repetition in music" to answer the question!
Vox video: • Why we really really r...
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We’ve always liked repetitive sounds, as the human brain reacts to things it wants to hear a lot. It’s particularly noteworthy now apparently.
its funny how so many people complain about repetition in genres they don't like, because obviously you're not going to like the repetition from a genre you don't connect with, but every genre has a ton of repetition
@@benjaminwatt2436
Well said here!
The bridge is the “mosh part” and it breaks up the redundancy of verse-chorus-verse…, as is the key change. Class dismissed.
This actually clears a lot of things out
the breakdown breakdowns the pattern
*_Finn defending modern pop music is always a real hoot._*
I really like you by Carly Rey Jepsen reminds me of going to church camp with two of my buddies and getting in trouble for singing system of a down in our cabin. Then they sent in someone to show us “appropriate” music and this hot blond counselor came in and made us listen to that song on replete for 20 minuets
The most important lesson for writing songs from this video is in fact Finn's story about patterns and disruptions from his design classes. I've also been reading up on music theory and listening to song analysisesses for last few years, and what Finn said basically sums it up - a good song regardless of genre features a lot of repetition, and a LITTLE bit of disruption to underline the repeating parts even more. And role of music theory is to help create that little bit of extra spice, not dump it all over.
People will always differ in the amount of repetition they prefer. The trouble comes when they mistake their personal preferences for universal truths. But when you have a strong feeling about something, it's hard to understand why other people don't feel the same way.
"making enjoyable art is a good thing." i love this point. I go to art shows at my local college and a lot of it is trash, because they artists want to be original, but they end up with this wierd random gory, psycho art, that yeah, is different but is completely void of any real life meaning. I prefer landscapes, you know Bob Ross kinda stuff
went to the rijks museum in amsterdam a month ago and found most enjoyment in the old paintings of winter landscapes they have there^^
Film kids are going this way with cosmic horror and that's why I'm prepping to counter it with faux cosmic dark comedy that's just everyone else rolling their eyes as a film. Audiences need to feel listened to and not presented with things like they're stupid
I love that you upload in the morning, thanks Finn!
I like the comparison to visual art. I hate post modern, difficult art, that is only interesting because the artist is a tortured soul. I want something that looks good on my wall. There’s a reason there are millions of prints of Monet. In the same vein, I like music that is enjoyable to listen to.
I'm tired of ugly art! I want something beautiful. No one paints like the masters anymore.
Wouldn't things like De Stijl and color field paintings actually be much more analogous to simplistic pop music?
@@sollamander2206 Yes, but my point was just aestheticism. Also I don’t necessarily think pop is the only repetitive/enjoyable music. A lot of metal has great hooks.
Sollamander, yes. And just like pop, only unsophisticated people write off non-representational visual art for being “too simple”
@@ExNihiloComesNothing I feel like they do it just doesn't get promoted by "the art world". Old guys at deer camp.
Repetition legitimizes. And that's a good thing!
Repetition legitimizes
Repetition legitimizes
Repetition legitimizes
The video he's watching doesn't even make any of the points that he's arguing against or that the thumbnail suggests. Finn has become the strangest version of old man yells at clouds. I'm not even saying he's wrong but he rarely seems to address a point someone makes directly more so the amorphous "People say." "Reddit Says" "nerds say" "It's ridiculous that people make these generalizations about this music, progressive metal bad. " (Admittedly a lot of it is LoL)
I love Finns videos. Although the constant need to shit on metal and prop up Pop Music (deserved or not) does get a bit old
Listening to Uncle Finn talking about human brains and psychology is something I never thought I needed until I had it.
When I think of music that really moves me and creates an emotional reaction, it has repitition, but it leaves that repetition and comes back to it, often in a new way. It’s like going on a journey and coming home a changed person.
Too many pop songs just don’t go anywhere (this is true in all genres btw, not just pop).
If the music doesn’t have much dynamics, if it doesn’t take you anywhere, then it’s just kinda boring
I think there is inherent value in complexity due to the fact that it provides novelty which is undoubtedly stimulating. of course, the mistake that a lot of prog/jazz/metal people make (if you can call it a mistake) is that they act as though complexity/novelty is the ONLY thing that adds value to music. novelty is good, but it's not enough to make you like a song if you don't like anything else about it. repetition also has value and finding a balance between complexity and repetition is key. to be clear, I'm not saying that that "balance" is only met by a band like Dream Theater either. I think it's pretty subjective and that balance can certainly be met by something further towards the "repetition" end of the spectrum, including pop music. also, one thing to keep in mind is that composition is only one aspect of music that can be "complex". timbre matters as well and, hot take, pop music has richer, more experimental, and more complex timbre than probably any metal I've personally ever heard. like, guys, we've all heard two guitars, bass, drums, and harsh vocals before. I love metal, don't get me wrong, but metal has to be one of the least experimental genres when it comes to timbre. grab your sm57, your Mesa dual rec with your vintage 30s, your active emgs, your Ibanez tube screamer, right? where's the novelty there? I'm not quite as acquainted with pop as I am with metal, but most pop artists I listen to sound more distinct relative to each other timbre-wise than metal bands do. whatever, I like Dream Theater and Dua Lipa.
@ghost mall lmao so true
I personally love long, linear songs because it gives them more longevity (to me). Pop music certainly has its place and I don't have a problem with the function it serves in society, but the ease of listening is a double edged sword. Easy to get into and enjoy. Easy to tire of and move on, which is why pop music songs and artists in general cycle in and out of the public sphere so quickly. Go to any pop song vid from 5+ years ago and notice all the "who still listening to this in the current year?" or "i miss when music sounded like this". Bro it's 5 years. That ain't shit.
There are some pop songs that truly stand the test of time, but we just consider them classics. With current pop music, the cream hasn't risen to the top. A song can be a hit by being in the right place at the right time and following trends, but the true trendsetters tend to be interesting when you dive into them. Making a song with as much mass appeal as possible and having more than one or two hits is an art, regardless of whether the artist was seeing dollar signs as they wrote them.
Thats like the Greatful Dead. Every song is the same long as hell elevator music. Boring
@@ImGoingSupersonic linear meaning new things are introduced throughout. the grateful dead is just the same boring jam for half an hour
It’s a known phenomenon that in the last 40 years pop music has started to centre around the exact same formulas, chords, “progressions and themes, even the instrumentation used. Like it all you want, but we used to have much more difference in stuff that was considered pop music. That is a big loss to culture. It speaks to more of a conveyor belt process than actual artistic creativity.
I agree with the point of repetition and believe it’s very important when composing but I think you’re forgetting the excitement that comes with anomaly. There has to be a perfect balance of the 2 in order for your mind to be fully captivated by the music. You can’t know what’s gonna happen before you hear it, just as you can’t have so much randomness that you can’t identify with any familiarity or structure. Both are paramount.
There's something about finding/listening to bands that can both play their instrument and write catchy songs, like Pierce the Veil, Issues, Chunk!, Mastodon, Tonight Alive, etc, because as mentioned in other comments, I feel like their songs hold up more
Tonight Alive reference?!? That's what I'm talkin' 'bout.
@@acerimmer8338 dude, they’re such an under appreciated band
The emergence of this checkerboard music, this over-repetition, is not an isolated phenomenon. Rather, it's a mirror reflecting broader societal trends. In our current era, often referred to as the age of information, we are inundated with a constant stream of data, news, and content. The sheer volume of information can be overwhelming, leading many of us to retreat into familiar patterns for comfort and simplicity. Just as we might stick to our favorite news channels or social media feeds, which often echo our own views and prejudices back to us, we might also seek refuge in the familiar patterns of repetitive music.
However, this trend is disconcerting, as it stifles diversity and creativity, and promotes an echo-chamber mentality. It's a phenomenon akin to the "filter bubble" in social media, where algorithms predict what we want to see or hear based on our past behavior, and deliver us more of the same. This might give us comfort in the short term, but in the long term, it dulls our senses, narrows our perspectives, and ultimately, impoverishes our cultural life.
Furthermore, this trend towards repetition and sameness can foster a passive consumption mentality. When we are constantly fed the same content, we get used to it, and we stop questioning or challenging it. We become mere consumers, passively absorbing what is given to us, rather than active participants in our cultural life. This is a dangerous development, as it can lead to a kind of cultural stagnation.
For instance, imagine a dinner where the same dish is served over and over again. At first, we might enjoy the familiarity, but over time, we would start to crave variety, novelty, and surprise. Without these, our dining experience would become dull and unfulfilling. The same principle applies to our cultural consumption. If we only consume art - be it music, literature, or visual arts - that is familiar and repetitive, we miss out on the richness and diversity that the world of art has to offer.
Moreover, this passive consumption mentality can extend beyond the realm of art, and into our social and political lives. If we get used to just consuming what we are familiar with, we might also stop questioning the status quo, or challenging the powers that be. We might become complacent, accepting things as they are, rather than striving for change and improvement. This, in turn, can lead to social and political stagnation.
Therefore, it's crucial that we resist the trend towards repetitive art and passive consumption. We need to seek out diversity, challenge our comfort zones, and constantly question and critique what we consume. Only by doing so can we keep our cultural life vibrant and dynamic, and our society progressive and evolving.
I'm a complete nerd who loves 14-minute prog metal songs when they're done well (which is to say by only a select few bands), and I also agree with Finn on almost everything here. I'm not superior for listening to niche, complicated, challenging music. I do think that people who are really into music (i.e. nerds) tend to be into more complex music, but that complexity can exist within very accessible music, usually by being subtle. That's why I enjoy a select few pop songs and tons of pop rock songs. Also, if someone isn't a nerd about music and just wants to vibe to some generic trap rap or reggaeton song (I don't understand the appeal of either of these styles), I have no room to judge. Maybe they get more fulfillment from other things. We're all different, and that's good.
Even for those few who are simply dumb and boring people, I'm not gonna make them smarter or more interesting by showing them the entirety of _Metropolis Pt. 2: Scenes From a Memory_ by Dream Theater. They'll just think I'm annoying and refuse to listen to more than 3 minutes of it. Why should I care what they think of me anyway, let alone my music taste?
I think that a bridge is IMPORTANT, (Sometimes? I guess that it depends on the whole song structure, but I interestingly just talked about this on my story on Instagram that: I think that a good bridge is a bridge can makes the chorus sounds/feels EVEN STRONGER when it comes back or something. Like I think that Let Me Love You (Until You Learn To Love Yourself) by Ne-Yo, Out Of The Woods by Taylor Swift. Or maybe it's the bridge that just keeps building up when it needs to? Like Red (Title track), Sparks Fly by Taylor Swift, etc. Imagine how they would sounds like if they just COMPLETELY calm down or whatever? Wouldn't that make it a BAD bridge that just ruin the whole song? I think that that's my point of view, I think that bridge is important, and if it's GOOD, sometimes it can also makes the song somehow more intensely, which will makes you feel GOOD listening to it, at least that's how I feel. Or bridge can be a good break for when the beat/production of the chorus comes back again? And I think that Latino music doesn't do that, so that makes it sound SOOOOOO FUCKING BORING for me, because it's just the beat repeat OVER AND OVER AGAIN, there's NO rest or whatever. A good bridge can definitely make a song better.
And what you said about ad-lips is pretty interesting for me. Because I LOVE ad-lips, I'll pay attention to that if a song has it. And you know, sometimes a song without ad-lips here and there, it just makes the song kinda boring, you know? And I found out that this kinda phenomenon is more common on male singers' music? I don't know why, male singers just RARELY do add-lips. Which is NOT satisfied sometimes. (It depends on the song, it feels unsatisfied if it needs to have some, but it DOESN'T. Or when it's TOO MUCH, that kinda sounds annoying too, like Fleshlight by Jassie J, the add lips just kinda ruin the song, because it's TOO MUCH, and that makes it sound kinda annoying for me, if the add lips can reduce FOR A LITTLE BIT, I think that I would love the song. But I actually don't like how her voice sound like in the song, it sounds like the production of the song is NOT for her voice? Even though the production is GOOD? I think that it needs to sing by other female singers can reduce the add lips FOR A LITTLE BIT. Maybe 2 or 3 sentences less or something?)
And also, you DON'T try out new things? You eat THE SAME FUCKING BREAKFAST EVERY DAY!? THAT'S CRAZY!!! And I think that what you said about: Why would you try new things if you already have something that you love or whatever is pretty close-minded boo. And I think that human beings probably like some "KIND OF" stable, but NOT EVERYONE likes things to stay the same ALL THE TIME. It depends on your personality? (I wonder if you're an INFJ or something? If I remember it correctly, INFJ is kinda famous for that? Likes things to NEVER change or something?) Like me, I DON'T LIKE IT when the things stay the same FOR THE WHOLE DAMN TIME!!! I like things to change it up for time to time!!! Like the life here that I have here in Taiwan, it's SOOOOO FUCKING BORING!!! AND IT KILLS ME FROM THE INSIDE!!!! (And there's NOTHING that I can do about it. Because I DON'T have money to go ANYWHERE ELSE. I'm a 20 year old college student btw. Gonna turn 21 at May 30th, which is the end of this month btw.) I'm an ENFP btw, and ENFP are FAMOUS FOR changing things up or something, you know? But I think that EVERY human beings NEEDS some type of stable. But HOW MUCH stability that you want is DEPENDS ON each person. So… yeah
And I think that this video that you found is just trash or something, in my opinion. Because I DON'T think that it provides me ANYTHING/ANY INFORMATION that is useful or whatever. Like what you said, I don't think that lyrics is the point or something. I DO think that if the repetition of a song lyrics is TOO MUCH, that'll make the song SOOOOOO FUCKING BORING, Like The Light Is Coming by Ariana Grande, the TOO MUCH repetition of the lyrics kinda just ruin a SUCH GOOD production!!! But mostly, I DON'T really care about lyrics, I just care about if the production is good, if the chorus is catchy or something, I think. So…
I think the production of a song is VERY IMPORTANT, you know!? Otherwise, WHY we need producers if we ONLY need a catchy chorus!? I don't think that this is how it works, it needs to have a PERFECT combination of both to make it a HIT, and the production has to suit the singer's voice too, or if the singer can change how their voice sound like to match the production?
And also, I think that making art can JUST make it for your own interests, and I DON'T think that it's selfish or something. Because you don't need to be a people pleaser. And at the other side of it, if you JUST chase the goal of making hits or something, I DON'T think that it's a GOOD mentally. Of course, if it works/DOES become a hit, then that's good. BUT I don't think that you can do this ALL THE TIME, because if you just wanna make your songs hit, then… what's the soul of your own music? And I found out that USUALLY when people try TOO HARD to make huts or something, usually it DOESN'T really works? Like Liam Payne, and Charlie Puth, they both admit that they were trying to make hits in the album, then they both didn't really achieve it. Or if you do it successfully like what I've heard that Taylor Swift kinda does with This Is What You Came For with Calvin Harris, it WORKS, but can you do that ALL THE TIME? If you DO, then DON'T you think that it's VERY FUCKING EXHAUSTING/NO MEANING why you're making music, you know? And I think that it's good to be somewhere in the middle? Like I think that when I make music in the future, I wanna make each other my album AT LEAST have 3 hits that works on the charts or something? Like what if the music that I'll make is NOT on the trend, maybe I can make 3 songs that can combine with the music gerne that I do with something that I LOVE but also, it's close to what's popular at the time or something, you know? That's my idea if I'll be a HUGE artist that make albums that'll hit the Billboard charts or something, that's how I think. So…yeah, that's how I think. And I think it's DEFINITELY SOOOOOO FUCKING STUPID that some people think that "arts" are the ONLY things that are inaccessible, I think that those people are just sanctimonious, like WHO THE FUCK DO THEY THINK THEY ARE, YOU KNOW!? 🙄🙄🙄🙄(That actually reminds me of a scene of an episode in the series Lucifer, that there's a underground band fire a producer JUST because the producer helped them to get a NO.1 single, because they think that the producer's work was TOO "MAINSTREAM", ISN'T THIS JUST SOOOOOO FUCKING STUPID!!!??? WHICH MUSICIAN DOESN'T WANNA HAVE NO.1 SINGLE!!!??? THAT'S JUST SOOOOOO FUCKING STUPID!!!!) So… yeah.
Key changes can be useful if I need to utilize a different register of my voice and it's more comfortable in a different key. You can create a different vibe for the same musical idea if you just transpose to a new key also.
Olafur Arnolds said he doesn't use modulation because it's just annoying to produce a song in multiple keys haha. But a random modulation, modal borrowing, etc, doesn't = good music. If it isnt adding anything emotionally, it doesn't need to be there.
All The Small Things is a perfect example of this.
I'm happy people can find music they enjoy since there are so many options, but for me, I don't enjoy pop music that is made for the lowest common denominator.
I'm not out here saying it isn't music and we need to get rid of it, but I prefer complexity and variety. I think it is more interesting to me and I believe it shows greater individual talent (not saying that because Tool is complex that they are objectively more talented than Michael Jackson, just saying they are able to show their talent off better with more complex structures).
Repetition can be very powerful in certain scenarios, but too much repetition can also detract from the music. By varying the repetition just a little, it becomes more powerful. It's the reason I can't find interest in Baby by Justin Bieber but I can find interest in Lateralus by Tool. Both songs are very structured and repetitive, but Bieber just copy and pastes, while Tool will throw an extra little nugget in their to keep you on your toes. By finding the difference in the pattern, you tend to better remember the pattern itself.
Rick Beato does a really good job of explaining why things like key changes, etc make music more interesting...
This is why i like architects more than periphery. Catchyness is a good thing. If I don't feel like my brain hurts after hearing a riff, that's a good thing, too. Good music shouldn't make you jump through hoops to be able to appreciate it.
Finn: Repetition is good
*listens to Swans*
Finn: Repetition bad.
Yes
Key changes aren't the end all be all but they do add TEXTURE. and they show how much of a grasp you have on the song. Moving to a different key while still preserving the feel of the song is ingenious technique when done properly
I like when an energetic song ends on two choruses and the 2nd chorus has a key change.
It is the cherry on top.
When you can only communicate through data you can only see what's WRONG with anything.
I legit thought the title said "Why poop music keeps getting WORSE"
When you went into the pattern/breaking that pattern bit all I could hear was "when they bring the riff back but palm muted."
11:16 even the drum beat in this spot is a good example of repetition that’s saucy and groovy
absolutely loved this video
Touring and restructure each song image in a confusing lyrical theme tune to be more complicated of pop music.
Straight up.. everyone is different. It doesn't matter. I like technical music but I love repetitive music.. it's messed up. I love music.😊
There was a video I watched recently by David Bennett Piano that broke down key changes in classic songs by Stevie Wonder, The Beach Boys, etc. and how they’re used to add depth to the song & change the mood. That’s great composition & writing and it changed the way I look at key changes. I think one group that does key changes very well is The Used, but they hardly get any credit for it because most of their fans aren’t nerds; they sell the band on things that would appeal to people like them. On the other hand there’s all these 80’s pop rock tunes that always had a key change for the last run through the chorus for no reason other than obligation, and that’s just corny. I agree that if you’re not doing it for effect, you might as well not do it at all & just let the tik tok kids make their own effects when they use the song & speed it up in their videos.
Music is like any other form of art it's in the eye of the beholder
Differences, most pop music, nowadays isn’t art, it’s just a factory with a conveyor belt of what has been wittled down over 40 years of formula. Multiple studies analysis has been done over the last couple of decades, showing that most pop music is converging around the same sound, instruments, “progressions and time signatures than ever before. That’s not art, that’s a processing plant.
My personal Pt was the 2005 2.5 turbo with chrome wheels and fake carbon trim interiors
the thing with key changes is we kinda got burnt out on them from all the 80s and 90s video game music that overused them. i avoided them for a long time and really only recently started using them in the last 2 or 3 years
This video was so great. I listen to everything from Michael Jackson to The Locust to Morgan Wallen to Lorna Shore. It just depends on my mood! Broaden your horizons! Rejecting pop music does nothing but a diservice to oneself.
Preach. Went to a Doja Cat concert and it was one of the most fun I’ve ever had at one Was up there with Knocked Loose and Slipknot for me
@@phaaaze9984 Nice! I have not been to a hip-hop show in too long. I would be stoked to see all of those artists you mentioned 😎
As a fan of Classical music - it's actually relatively less repetitive than other forms of music.
However - this is actually sometimes annoying, because there can be great parts that are frustratingly fleeting, that don't return!
The opposite problem exists in Pop - parts can be great, but repeat ad nauseum, which is especially annoying when the part is super simple.
I love Black Sabbath partly because of the repetition of riffs - they wouldn't be as potent if they weren't repeated as much.
But the thing that sustains interest on top of that is the shifting bass and drum patterns underneath - this allows the music to have repetition without boredom setting in. It's a tough balance!
I mean I'm actually a fan of the new Metallica album, but wow, they repeat things way too much.
I'd rather the songs be shorter, and if I choose to - just listen to them again if I want to opt for a repeat. I don't wanna be forced to hear a riff 50 times.
For me, most (pop) music is boring and forgettable, but I imagine I'd feel the same about that composers non-repeating music as well. I think there's something to the concept of establishing and disrupting patterns, being interesting.
Your video, from a couple days ago, reminded me that Stroke 9's "Little Black Backpack" existed. I listened to the whole song and it's been stuck in my head since. If you had let it play a few more seconds, it would have gotten to the hook and you probably would have recognized it, not that you'd change your mind about whether or not it's any good. It's not a favorite of mine; it just contains a mind virus that works on me.
I think the main issue is that repetition is being conflated with automation. It makes music more easily manufactured.
I mean every song is, but it seems like people hate the idea of their music being robotic.
I try not to over think it. If it slaps, it slaps.
isnt funny how making your music sound "robotic" was encouraged in the 80s and now the tastemakers want to demonize it!
@@zachroberts1988 it wasn’t ai generated back then, they had actual people using these equipment 😃
Whether music is popular or obscure or whether it's complex or simple has no correlation with whether it's good or bad. Good music can be simple, complex, mainstream or underground. Same with bad music.
Late 19th century classical helped contemporary music such as ragtime, jazz, gospel, country, R&B and blues kick off. It became too complex remember most composer's sold licensed sheet music where you, friends, family or hired musicians had to play it to hear it.
It keeps getting worse because producers and songwriters (of which there are literally about 10 people total in the entire industry) are taking hit songs they wrote 6-months to a year ago, changing the melody/hook slightly, new lyrics, and messing with tempo a bit and then crapping it back out under a different "artists" banner hoping that it catches peoples attention in the same way. And I'm not talking out of my ass here, several producers have admitted this is a commonplace practice for writing hit songs.
I think the visualisation actually has a point, think of a repetitive song as smooth running machine... what the operator likes and what he might get his fulfillment from. Vice versa stuff like key changes or bridges are interruptions or irregularities which catch the interest of a technician. So in the end it boils down to people who actually like being confronted and forced to think and people who like to ride along for lack of a better description on the consumers side, while on the creators side you got people who like others feeling comfortable and those who like confronting people.
15:17
Smart guy. No idea who he is but he has a bright future in repetitive pop.
Definitely about to jam Vince Staples promptly once this video ends. Thanks Finn.
There is an argument to be made that repetition for it's own sake, just to pound a hook into your brain, is a music version of fast food. It doesn't have a lot of substance, other than making you consume and waste money.
It depends on how it's done and the intention though, of course. Context is everything.
17:00 doesn't a guitar solo fill in that same role? It's usually played over the rhythm section that takes the form of repeated bars during the solo
I agree that needs over complicate things. I disagree on your take on bridges though. Variety is good in a song. If a song is just one part, it’s TOO repetitive at that point. If it’s riff salad, it’s not repetitive enough to get into. There’s a sweet spot where you introduce the repetition, deviate from it to introduce something new, the bring back the repetition to bring it home. *extreme Ron Burgundy voice* it’s science.
I didn’t say bridges are bad. I just think it’s interesting how everyone hopped on the MUH BRIDGES bandwagon a few months ago
@@FinnMckentyPRMBA Yea, I made my comment before watching the whole video because I'm part of the problem haha. You went on to make my point that people like the repetition, then a disruption from it to remember why they liked it, so when it comes back, it hits twice as hard. I (subjectively of course) think that's always better than constant repetition. A full blown bridge doesn't have to be the only answer though. Like you went on to say, it could be an adlib or even just a new lead part over the existing chord progression, just things to spice it up. NOW GIVE ME MUH BRIDGE!
I'm going to blame this on some nerds in early 2000's getting stoned while watching the MP3 programs that did those visual response to musical best while said nerds thought "whoa, maaaan... Like there's a message in the beat." Windows 98 made these nerds...
You defo need to invite Rick Beato on your podcast to talk about Key changes and bridges now, haha lol.
To your other point, this sort of data presentation reminds me why I'm an applied scientist, not an academic scientist. Also, why I love the Top-down approach. Fuck me I have sat through so many shit powerpoints. Then again I perfer worker with designers and innovation consultants
Would love to have Rick on!
13:08 because it’s not art, it’s commodity/artifice…commodities are still valid in that they are enjoyable but standards are important…ancient earthenware pots were made for function and enjoyment and were commodities and considered art but that was coming from a time of civilization before the printing press where artifice/commodification became a different beast…anyone can cater to a fan, anyone can seek to be a people pleaser…it doesn’t make them an artist, it makes them well suited to being cogs in today’s industry
Pop music is a guilty pleasure for me. Im a Brit born Mid 80s so I loved 90s pop growing up lol. Even into the mid 00s but that ends it for me. I couldn't tell you what's in the chartta now
The repetition argument is something people use to bash music that is not the music they like. Most of the time music is made of repetition. Another way we call that is rhythm and theme (althought maybe those words mean something different in english than how we use them in Spanish or Italian).
That way of analizing is not bad, just nerdy. As a nerd, a musician and an artist that both learned by myself and went to college for an arts degree, i say that explanation is what songwritters and producers end up understanding with other words through the practice of writting songs and listening and analizing how others write songs: the repetition and the unpredictable elements and all that, it's just part of what we play with in every song.
Ask Misha Mansoor about his first experience with "Call Me Maybe" by Carly Rae Jepsen. He and Nolly were raving about the musical structure of the song.
The biggest thing is that the balance between quality and the commercial side (marketing stuff, focus groups, all that bs) is outbalanced. Artists used to be artists first and a marketing puppet second. Now it's the other way around.
12:23 it’s usually the songs made to appease fans that people think are a hit that fail and typically songs artists think will flop not made for fans that become a hit though
The video title is great, this is what good click bait is! I enjoy most forms of music though I listen to metal the most. You've helped atleast 1 person understand musical structure and why repetitive pop music is objectively good. I try have an open mind when listening to music most people like, and I can see why it appeals but it's not for me, this video has made me understand really why it appeals, because we are programmed to like repetition and safety, really interesting take. Cudos to you man for constantly challenging the way people think, especially the metal heads, because despite being a metal head myself, I find alot of metal fans insufferable assholes. I rambled a bit! but I appreciate your work, keep going mate 🤙
It doesn't need to be lyrical. Rage against the machine is repetitive AF but no one brings that up.
the bridge in a song makes the parts of the song on either side sound better
this is one of the things that made pop punk more accessible than punk, i mean even though punk has pretty repetitive riffage, but the easier to understand vocals with more sing along type choruses.
The video look like more about song writing and not about the non lyrics music and that's why it's good to have some kind Rhythm that makes it repetitive and catchy it makes more memorable.
This is some serious truth right here. The data visualization is a solution in search of a problem. Very confusing.
Hearing you talk about patterns and about making entertainment for people to enjoy rocked. This is one of my favorite videos you've done.
I consider the "best" entertainment as something that reflects our current intellectual hopes in a way that will help uplift most people toward the True, the Good, the Beautiful. And that takes into consideration the overall craftsmanship (so not just a message, since that can be written on a napkin). However, imo, the only way to determine that is to have a perfect intellect, which I believe only God has, and being that each individual is different, music with popular crowd pleasing appeal might not reach us, as individuals, but fun music with chants can help unify and build harmony with others.
You have studied and are aware of more music than me so I can't say what's the greatest but I thought Beatles might be the best because I thought they were the band that had the potential to entertain the most people in a positive way. However, I'm not a fan, and that's where I make the distinction between the "greatest" vs a favorite. Even when I was kid where Slipknot, Stone Sour, and KoRn were my favorite bands, I wouldn't say they were as good as Bach, Beethoven and Mozart.
Nowadays, I think Disturbed is my favorite but I only listen to select songs since I don't think the lyrics are good for me. And Frank Sinatra and Elvis are my favorite vocalists. Hope you're having an a-May-zing month, Finn. And if you celebrate, may the 4th be with you! Which by the way, Revenge of the Sith is my favorite Star Wars movie, even though I think Empire is the best.
Beyonce Love On Top could have a MILLION key changes and it would only get more fire the higher it goes lol.
Also talking about the brain and how it seeks familiarity and patterns to feel safe made laugh because the word Safe. Makes it sound like Metal is Dangerous and people are legit frightened by it lol.
If it gets too simple like a toddlers first book, the majority of the time for me and I assume some people that aren’t me get over it cause it’s not challenging and there’s no mystery.
Like a simple movie, that’s easy to predict and cliche. If every song is highly predictive on the radio it wears our fast.
I don't know Finn, maybe it's because I'm nuerodivergent but I understood the visualization of it quite quickly. It's kind of treating the base block and color as the start of the song and every additional color and block is another verse, hook or bridge and they each kind of build on one another. Basically the same way the structure of a song builds on it's self. Pop music is great for a visualization like this because of the repetition. I am sure if threw Jazz or Prog music or anything that didn't adhere the usual 4-4 structure of your normal pop song it wouldn't look as clean as this.
I don't think this over complicates at all. It's basically using shape and color which is a simpler way to look at most things. It's kind of like how certain ways of learning things or being taught things can on the outset look complicated but actually make something easier to learn once you get the hang out.
You’re not explaining what the x and y axes represent or why this shouldn’t just be a pivot table
@@FinnMckentyPRMBA I don't even think there really is an x or y with that visualtion. I would love to see more of it to get a better understanding of the setup. But on the initial view of it I kind of get what he was going for with it. It just visually shows the repetition. It is like seeing the song versus hearing the song if that makes sense.
@@FinnMckentyPRMBA I took it like this: If there was no repetition, it was just a single, straight diagonal line. The more repetition that there was in a particular part of a song, the more "filled in" that the square would be. Go to 14:40 and pause it. The first part of the Beyonce song is actually an example where it ISN'T repetitive, so it's mostly sparse, singular diagonal lines. Then the second half of the song is considered to be very repetitive, and contains more squares. Then if you go to 16:17, you see that "Yeah Right" is literally just a bunch of perfectly formed squares, and the whole song is obviously extremely repetitive.
@ghost mall The fuck is that suppose to mean?
@ghost mall that’s because you have such a superficial perspective.😂
Now I would like to know what Finn eats for breakfast every day since a few years. Thank you.
This whole argument against repetition and simplicity is the same one around 70's prog rock and early punk, or people that hated early rock n roll compared to classical. It's just new and different and no longer "your music if youth" you attach to.
There's stuff today I like for many different reasons, and there's older stuff I can't stand for others. Just like the music you like and branch out if you want to. There's more to music than the top 40 chart or being trapped in gatekept niche subgenres.
This is like your personality x Adam Neely type content and I'm 10000% here for it.
That's the point of art, is to have an audience. As a musician I'm playing to an audience whether I'm playing keyboards in rock band or paying trombone in a concert band. It would be really boring playing if you did not perform before an audience. Like it or not, music has a business aspect The cover band's job is to bring patrons to a bar. It's job is to play songs people enjoy. The conductors of the concert bands I play in have to choose music the audience enjoys so they can pay the bills.
Its a Goldie locks situation, as complexity is also what keeps your brain engaged. If you look at something and can instantly break it down it loses interest, that is why nobody wants to listen to a song that is just one note repeated straight for 5 minutes.
The structure repetition is the AABA format. A is one part (generally verse/chorus), and the human brain enjoys it so it wants to hear it again. B is the bridge. Bridges are important because even though the brain enjoyed part A, if you play it one too many times, it gets old, so you throw a bridge in to keep it fresher. But it's hard to end on a bridge because the brain loves repetition, which is why you go back to A for the end
If you count the repetition in songs with parts it's in multiples of four.its usually 12 or 16 bars
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In a way our music is becoming more spiritual. I grew up playing pop punk music and traditionally versed in western Song structure Intro, verse, Chorus, Verse, Bridge, Chorus. In my mid 20s I decided to take a deep dive into my Jewish roots. Spend some time living in Jerusalem Then kind of went around the world But that's a whole story within itself. My point being that as a musician I took an interest to traditional Jewish music And it It was super difficult for me too understand because of my western musical structure. They basically take a Spiritual phrase, or teaching, and repeat it over again in different melodies like a mantra. Reggae's also perfect example. Basically Repetition is more hypnotizing In turn being more spiritual. I think the real question is Not If Music is getting worse? Maybe it's the actual Intention/content that we're choosing to repeat that is actually getting worse.....
Finn- I hope this isn't a "new music bad old music good" video.
Also Finn- new graph bad old graph good
haha still a good video as usual.
I think it would take a lot of compositional skill to have 1000 key changes in a song and have it still sound good, but I cant listen to much house music because it doesn't feel like a complete phrase most of the time. it's not even that it's repetitive it's more that it's like a record skipping (I do like glitchy synthwave though)
Also everyone titled shit like that in the early 1800's. People made things more long winded than they do now. Titles were always very direct and spelled out what was going to be spoken about.
I don't think simplicity is the problem, I like simple music sometimes too. I think interest is the problem, and there isn't much interest in a song that endlessly repeats. You can get your fill from said song in the first minute if the rest of the song is basically the same. Perhaps music nerds like bridges because in pop music, the bridge is usually where the song takes a bit of a detour before coming back to finish on the chorus. Maybe they introduce a new chord that they haven't used in the song yet, maybe they change the key, they do something to grab the listener. I don't think a bridge is particularly necessary, but I also don't think second verses are necessary, guitar solos, conventional structure, etc. Linoleum is one of the most popular punk songs of all time and it doesn't even have a chorus. If your song is the same beat with the same chord progression with the same vocal melody with the same lyrics for the whole song, your song likely sucks. Our brains can only hear something like 3 times in a row before we lose interest.
There are people who will go to the extreme and proclaim that only 7 minute epics with 30 time signature changes are fun to listen to, but I think the real point is that we just want songs that will indicate to us that something interesting is happening. I don't get that from a lot of popular music today, the songs are very flat. They don't have much tension and release, if any.
0:35 use to have a Pt Cruiser. Called it the Pt Loser! 🤣
16:32 the Police are a good example of this
We're all victims of dumbing-down through media and social media. Repetitive pop music sounds like the Baby Shark song to me.
Good song 🦈
Lol finn has not peeked yet this is gold
This is the same argument they made about 80s pop or corporate rock example journey and Chicago.
Yeah alot of it was sappy simple love ballads , some was good most not.
Better read "This is what it sounds like" by Susan Rogers and Ogi Ogas.
I have ADD and I find challenging music keeps my attention better. I can't keep my attention on repetitive music. I envy most music listeners.
Too much repetition can be boring.
There are people who write songs (produce any form of art actually) for fun as they feel connected with listeners, and there are people who do it for other musicians to have false sense of belonging, validation and status. I thinks its the same with nerds. People hate shit they didnt came up with or find theselves, until they find a way to come up with contribution, like critique or analysis, usually with no real emotional connection but more in a scientifically methodic ways.
I won't stand for any Toyota Camry slander. By far one of the best engines ever it's in the Camry
Am I too drunk from last night or is the audio and video are not synchronised properly LOL
Less really is more if you know how to do it right and that's especially true for music.
I'm pretty sure the video was saying the same as you. She made a point at the end about songs with a lot of repetition being great.
How can anyone say bohemian rhapsody has one writer and one producer when the entire band was usually very involved with all of that.
Before I say anything I want to preface that I love pop music, new and old. I like prog music because in a 14 minute prog song there are multiple repetitive moments in a song that can get stuck in my head, in a pop song theres usually 2 or 3 really catchy repetitive moments. In a prog song even if the section in the prog song is short, even if it gets repeated just once over, and it lasts for only a minute, it has a potential to get stuck in my head, a prog song has a higher variety of repetitive moments than a pop song does for me.
I burnt a lot of brain cells on trying to comprehend what they are trying to explain because the whole video they keep going in circles with unnecessary things and they don't cut to the chase. Boring video to be frankly but I appreciate the effort to putting that together.
The video actually addressed what he’s talking about. He just refused to listen to it. If he would have stopped talking, he may have learned some thing. I will never know if I would have learned something because he wouldn’t let the person finish points. And no way did I get from that video that simplicity is bad they kind of explained that away immediately.
Video: *makes a point*
Finn: “These fucking nerds..”
I love the discourse in this video. I don't see why it ever needed to be any more complicated than "I like this music because I enjoy listening to/making it" unless you're talking about pseudo-musical-intellectuals just kinda swimming around face-down in their own pool of "i wanna like (this music), but I feel awkward about liking it because of (social or self-imposed stigma)." It's not a contest between angry people to dissuade the rest of us or each other from enjoying some fucking pop, or jazz, or blues, or whatever. It's all just music - enjoy what you like. All this constant dissection dick-measuring about music just cheapens it. Let it be what it is and either enjoy it for what it is (which is fine) or dislike it and listen to something else (also fine).
I think it's also worth noting that music is an interactive experience to some degree. Repetition gives listeners a touch point that they can relate/come back to, and it brings them into the song as an active participant rather than a bystander to something completely foreign that's just sort of occurring near them. It's hard to become invested in something that's around four minutes long (give or take) that has zero repeating structure at all - it's like a TV show that starts off giving you twenty characters in the first episode, and then every subsequent episode kills one or two of them off until you don't care enough to get invested anymore because why bother? They're just gonna die anyway, right? You have zero reason to stick around.
And this is coming from a progressive metal guitarist...
But that dude writing that piece of the "fallacy of repetition in the classical" whatever made some incredibly silly points. Saying that a first impression is devalued by repeating that behavior is ridiculous, but trying to draw an analogy to a poet repeating prose is absolutely asinine - it's a completely different medium with a different function. If we took that a step further - saying that any classical painter who used more than five diagonal brush strokes unequivocally yields a boring, uninspired painting - it's not hard to see how incredibly Swiss cheese that ideology is. Music is a form of communication at its core - as is most art. Would this guy also have suggested that using the same word in a given period of time during a conversation with someone made your discussion lame and uninteresting?
Furthermore, I fucking love your channel, Finn.