Big thanks for teaching me how to play a sub. Went from an 33k overall with 380+ ilvl to, 48k same dungeon with more knowledge Danse Macabre this made my SecT do such insane dmg! Big ups to you man!
I’m maining a rogue again and I’m 353 ilvl atm doing maybe 33k dps in m2’s. But I did learn some nice tricks in such a short time. I’ll test it out today. Thank you Coco for this amazing guide.
@@cocomojo-gg 2 weeks later still loving sub and using what this guide thaught me. I have to ask how you get your gcd on your mouse like that it's siiiick
@@Nimsan hell yeah! Glad the vid was helpful. I use a slightly modified version of this for my mouse gcd: wago.io/cbJBOwkmy I think I just changed the color, and maybe the size a bit
Amazing guide mate! Was thinking of trying sub after only playing outlaw this season. This guide helped a ton to understand the rotation and the build overall. 👏👏
Thank you for great video. I like playing sub rogue and don’t want to be pressured into Outlaw! The secret tech on single target is an eyes wide open moment. Never used on st!
Glad you enjoyed it! Luckily all the rogue specs are strong right now. Some are better than others in specific situations, but you can make them all work really well in any pve content. And yeah, if we could press sectech for every global then we would (:
Errors in rotation: Never press Tornado in dance - It is a ~1.1% dps loss. You only press it BEFORE or AFTER shadow dance. I know Yoda does this, but it is incorrect play. You can also tornado > Dance + SoD > 4x BP > SStorm > Sectech for some more minor gains. In single target you can Tornado > Dance + SoD > GB > Evis > SS > Sectech. Once you've cast Gloomblade once during dance you never press it again in that same dance. 2 target rotation outside of dance was incorrect - You cast Gloomblade outside of dance until there is 6s remaining on the Lingering Shadows buff, after which you Shuriken Storm. The dance rotation in 2t *specifically* also changes to Dance +SS > Evis > SStorm > GB if at 4-5CP > Sectech or can swap SStorm > GB with the SS for slightly more damage on Evis. Up to 6 targets the dance rotation is Dance + SS > BP > SStorm > Sectech when SnD is active. 7 targets or more you drop the SS for SStorm. I know the video is a month old now and things fall out of date but it's really not bad as a start but incorrect information can form bad habits if you want to meaningfully improve when learning a spec. Numbing is universally more valuable the higher you go - The cast speed reduction is huge + your tank will love you. 3% DR falls off pretty fast.
HUGE thanks for this! I think some of these were discovered after this vid was made, but some i just straight up missed. Thanks for giving me the heads up!
Glad you enjoyed the vid! Luckily both sub and outlaw are in a really great spot right now. I think sub is a little better in most keys but you can safely play both or whatever you like most (:
@@cocomojo-gg 100%. I’ve been maining warlock. But main alt is rogue and liked outlaw but really enjoying sub a lot. Your video has helped a ton! I can see a lot more rogue in my future.
Thanks! Yeah it's pretty close to up to date, check the pinned comment for some optimizations. I cover the single target rotation in the vid which you can use for bosses in m+. For raid, here's the recommended build: BUQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAAAAAEBkkICBIIJIJJRikEpkkEtAJlkQSSkWAAAA It drops the AoE talents and picks up shadowblades and the first dance. The opener is a bit different for this as well: shadowstrike + symbols > gloomblade > rupture > dance > gloomblade > evis > shadowstrike > sectec
Yeah sub is really quite good, all the rogue specs are tbh! Feels good to have a bunch of viable options that play differently and have some unique strengths
Awesome video! Would be great if you could do a video about all those handy little tricks that rogues provide like the vanish situation you mentioned in this video, where to cloak or maybe shroud skips in M+
Thank you! I really appreciate the feedback, I think that's a great idea. I have some footage I can use, I'll work on putting together a comprehensive guide (:
That is the action tracker plugin that comes with details damage meter! The default setting is some list view, but you can switch it to these icons instead
Thanks, I've tried sub a few times in medium keys, although things die a bit fast for me to really practice this in a dungeon, the explanations you have are really helpful in different scenarios. I have a question about 2-3 target though, do you only shuriken storm + evis? Do you ignore rupture if there's only 2-3 targets at a time?
Glad you liked the vid! Yeah med or low keys can be tough, you can get more value out of sectec but way less value from rupture. In general you want to rupture any target that will live for at least 12 seconds at any target count
Thanks for watching! It's best to sim all gear choices, but generally mastery is best for aoe, and crit and vers are strong overall. Try to avoid haste as much as you can, and higher ilvl is almost always a safe choice!
so its only dance / symbols you wanna line up with secret tech? some rogues were telling me they only use tech with everything, including cold blood, thistle tea but i do feel like youre able to use tech a lot less when u wait for everything. wasnt sure if worth
You definitely don't want to wait for everything, you'll miss a lot of sectec casts that way. You only line up dance and sectec since they end up having the same cooldown. I will tea with sectec in aoe if i am at max stacks or i have cold blood, otherwise i pool tea charges for single target fights since we get energy starved in single target very easily. In general you want to send everything on cooldown, while lining up dance + sectec (which happens naturally). The only time you aren't pressing your buttons on cooldown is if the pull is about to die and you won't get most of the value.
Thanks! I use ElvUI for my unit frames, weakauras to track my CDs energy and combo points, and omnicd to track kicks + CC + party cooldowns. I have a bunch of other addons for minor things, but these 3 are what you're seeing in the vid. Here's a link to the ElvUI profile and weakauras if you want to try them out: wago.io/ykDFyJ5t6
Yeah I could share that info. I'll probably make a UI + keybinds vid at some point. For now, I use esdf to move then bind everything to the right and left of my hand. I also have a mouse with 4 buttons, so I have all of those + scroll wheel bound. And I use shift and control modifiers to get more binds out of all those buttons
Yeah! I use this weakaura: wago.io/8xGN251mS Just follow the instructions for setting up the accompanying macro in the description. I've never had a problem in dungeons, but I don't know how it will work in raid with two tanks. You may want to swap to a mouse over or a hard coded macro for your raid tank
Glad you liked it! That's a weakaura, I don't remember where I originally got it but I backed it up on wago, here's the link: wago.io/piDGgGT_s I think it's purple by default? But you can change to whatever color you like
Hola te saludo desde Perú, gracias por el tiempo que dedicas en realizar estos tutoriales, definitivamente ayudará a mucha gente. Por otro lado, quería consultarte sobre los addons que utilizas, me llamo mucho la atención el que se refleja los tiempos de las habilidades. Habrá alguna manera de poder copiarlos? Gracias por todo, Quedo atento a tus comentarios. Saludos.
Hello! I had to put this through google translate, but I think I understand what you mean. I'm glad you like the video :) I use elvui and weakauras for almost everything. My elvui profile and weakauras (spell cool downs) are here: wago.io/ykDFyJ5t6 Enjoy!
Hey! I use weakauras for all the cooldowns, buffs, energy and CP. There's a link in the description where you can find all of them to import if you want to try it out! Just install the weakauras addon first then use the import feature. The spells i cast come from an action tracker plugin with details damage meter. It comes with details, so just install details and you're good to go! The default look is like a list, but you can change to be square icons, adjust the size, etc
Thanks for the feedback! I'll definitely make a sin guide at some point. I haven't played it since the original wrath xpac, so I'm excited to learn how it has changed since then!
Thank you! I sim all of my gear choices, but a reasonable stat prio is crit >= mastery ~= vers > haste. Your stats sound reasonable to me! I think that's roughly what I'm at too at 405ilvl
For single target then should you start using Eviscerate x2 then go full Black Powder? I get the idea of having maintenence buffs up all the time, tea if you go starved on energy. Should you always also spend Cold Blood with Secret Technique? im wondering because of the point with having the macro
Hey! For single target, we don't want to cast black powder at all. Three targets is when BP starts to do more damage than evis, so we'll press at 3 or more targets only. And yeah, we always hold cold blood for sectec. The macro makes it so you don't have to think about it, just press sectec on cooldown and you'll get CB when it's available!
@@unclecharlie5766 Almost never, we'll usually only use gloom blade or shadow strike for single target to build combo points. The only exception to this is if we can't position behind our target to naturally apply find weakness with gloom blade. In that case, it's worth to cast one shuriken storm at the start of dance to apply find weakness for the duration of dance (via the 100% crit from shuiken storm at the start of dance). This is very rare though since we can almost always play behind our target for nearly 100% find weakness uptime
At least 2 in aoe, and at least 3 in single target. For aoe you can SD -> BP -> SS -> sectec to get 2 stacks (3 for the follow up hits from sectec). For single target, weaving in one gloomblade gets us a 3rd stack
Thanks for the comment! I've heard this before from others, but haven't experienced it myself. I heard it can happen if you press a shadow dance + symbols macro then immediately follow with a CB + sectech macro. I always delay sectech by at least one cycle of build cp -> finisher to get some danse stacks, but I should test to see if back to back macros may be the problem
Mastery is definitely best for sub, but crit is a very good stat too. Basically all stats other than haste are good. I recommend having gear sets for each spec and upgrade items for each set when something new sims better that what you used to have
I use weakauras for all the spell cooldowns and buffs in the middle, and the spell casts history on the right near the damage meter is an action tracker that's built in to details damage meter
Yup! I just have a macro. I don't think there's a situation in dragonflight where you want to cast them separately while they're both up. There was one case like that in shadowlands so I used to press them separately. But now I just use a macro since we just want to send them both on cooldown
In AoE, why don't we start with a rupture after the dance to get an extra stack? And on a single target, is it not better to use an eviscerate during dance before ST for the same reason?
Hmm that's an interesting idea! I think that could be very strong when paired with a late tornado during dance. It will come down to the value tradeoff between the extra rupture uptime + 1 extra DM stack, vs the damage gained by fitting one more black powder into the dance. Something like full CP -> dance -> rupture -> storm -> BP -> tornado -> sectech -> BP spam. I'm going to try it out, but we may need some sim nerd to figure it out. Maybe this is the excuse I need to learn how to write simc APLs... :)
Oh, and for single target, absolutely you want to cast one evis before ST. I don't think I explained that clearly, but take a look at the action tracker above my damage meter and you'll see i'm fitting in one evis, building back to full CP, then pressing sectech. Thanks for the questions and ideas! Hope you're liking the build and having fun playing rogue so far :)
You dont want to waste GCDs in dance, thats why you dont rupture during dance. Every GCD in dance is very valuable with the single dance build, and in AoE(lets say 6 target situation) its just a very low value GCD to use rupture during dance, using Black Powder is simply WAY more damage. In terms of Danse stacks, it doesnt matter if you rupture or Black Powder first, theyll give the same Danse stacks...except BP will do far more damage. You have plenty of time to put up/refresh Ruptures outside of Dance to farm your Dance CD back.
@@Handcannon77hard disagree with this sentiment. Sectec is massive damage, just as popping dance, so you want to empower it as much as possible. You’re only getting one every 30 seconds and it’s damage alone is competitive with black power being on a single GCD button . Because of this getting an extra stack of macabre is warranted because of how good sectec is. Any guide will tell you rupture is good in mass aoe during dance to get 5 stacks instead of 4. T while it is minmaxing, it is more damage nonetheless.
Yeah that's great feedback, I didn't touch on gear or BiS trinkets or anything like that. You're right that mastery and crit are best for M+: mastery gives us stronger finishers and we're playing around secret technique. Crit helps make sectech hit harder, but also works along with seal fate to give extra combo points from crits. Vers is also a great stat, generally slightly lower value than crit but it's worth simming. And we should avoid haste altogether. A little haste is fine, but it's generally always our worst stat. Sorry for overlooking stats! I'll include stat + gearing info in future vids. I really appreciate the feedback :)
@@cocomojo-gg No problem at all! Hope to see a Raid guide build as well if you find the time! Trying to make the move from outlaw because sub is alot more fun.
Great question! We gloomblade once during dance in single target to get an additional danse macabre stack. It's a damage gain to do this in single target but not in AoE
Hey! That's strange, I just tried re-importing the WA and it's working for me. Try re-importing the latest version and ping me on discord if you want help troubleshooting: cocomojo#8004
Thanks for watching! Let me know in the comments what you think about this build or if you've tried it before. If you enjoy the content, please consider subbing to help me out! Also, here's a link to my discord where you can chat with me and other gamers about WoW and mythic+: discord.gg/6ssBNm2Kg4 Errata + corrections (Thanks to @Kieron!) * tornado in dance is a ~1% dps loss. Press tornado before or after dance instead! * In 2 target fights, gloomblade is higher dps than shurkien storm when lingering shadows has > 6 seconds remaining. * In 2 target fights during shadow dance, the optimal rotation is Dance + shadowstrike > evis > SStorm > gloomblade if at 4-5CP > sectech. * On up to 6 targets during dance, we want to cast one shadowstrike to get an additional danse macabre stack before casting sectech: Dance + shadowstrike > BP > SStorm > sectech
@@kazaroth Hey! I use Elvui for the unit frames, and weakauras for all the cooldowns, buffs, and energy/cp. I have a link the video description with all of the different parts! I'll also consider making a vid going over the different things in my UI, I've been getting this question more and more lately
I wish I could give you 100 likes. Even though I enjoyed Yoda's video of this build and you got this build from Yoda, imo you explained it much better than he did. Not dissin Yoda. TYVM brotha. I have this vid saved and often rewatch it and link it to other guildies in Discord.
That's a weakaura! Here's the weakaura suite that includes the sound cue: wago.io/RVtcFsiyA It current makes the robot beep when symbols of death comes off CD, which is a bit of a relic from shadowlands when we synched all our CDs with symbols. I think it'd be better to make a sound cue when dance + sectech are off CD since sub revolves around those cooldowns now instead of symbols
I add a glow effect under display, then add a condition to enable it when the ability is off cooldown. I will sometimes also add other conditions, for example: when blade flurry is off cooldown but i still have more than 3 seconds of BF left, then it won't glow since I don't want to refresh it too early
Hey Coco, loved the vídeo! I was wondering, could you Share the middle weakaura you're using for the Cada belos/around the energy bar? Been giving sub a try again after struggling with Sin's dmg output and I still forget some Sub stuff, mainly because of how cooldowns usage is with Danse Macabre and single SD
Sub is pretty much the same as outlaw that way! We get cooldown reduction on dance and sectec for every combo point we spend, so you'll have damage very often. It's okay to hold dam for a short time to line up with important things (like the damage amp phase of bird boss in AA), but generally you should send CDs as often as possible
@@neihl9948 No prob! Sub is actually getting a small buff in 10.0.5! A talent we don't really play in raid or m+ is a little stronger, so the spec won't really change for many players. There's a decent chance that sub becomes the strongest rogue spec for m+ overall and gets played everywhere since outlaw is catching a couple smallish nerfs, and already does less overall dps than sub
We want to rupture all targets that will live at least 12 seconds. The way I like to do this is get some ruptures up while the tank is grouping, then get dance + sectech on cd, bp throughout dance, then get the rest of the ruptures up between cd windows
Thank you! For m+ builds, we can realistically move 2 points between shadow focus, shadow blades, and shuriken tornado. I don't want to give up tornado since it's so good for aoe, and I find shadow focus to be much easier to play than shadow blades if I"m not also taking shadow focus. Shadow blades sims a little higher than shadow focus, but i play more consistently with shadow focus. I may end up playing shadow focus + shadow blades and dropping tornado on high enough tyran keys
Nice video man, i'm main rogue since legion and im never be interest in sub cuz i always thought it has some of most difficult rotation, but its kinda simple tho
Thanks! Yeah it's not too bad imo, I think it's easier than it was in SL since there's way less cooldowns syncing. Feels really good in keys with consistent 5+ mob pulls
@@cocomojo-gg yeah, for sure, in legion u had to sync so much things also and i was like "man i have only 2 hands wtf" lol, but now for me its the most fun spec of them all
Thanks for asking! You can pick either acrobatic strikes or improved ambush, but I find that acrobatic strikes is much easier to play and you don't lose much overall dps according to sims. Acrobatic makes it easier to hit all mobs in AoE, and lets us play a bit safer during boss fights. Whereas improved ambush gives us a couple percent more dps on boss fights, but doesn't do anything for AoE. It may be worth making this switch during tyrannical weeks to optimize for boss dps
Shuriken storm costs 3 fewer gcds and much less energy than casting shuriken storm 4 times, which gives you more gcds and energy to spend on other abilities!
Hello, is it just me or is this build pretty hard to understand for a rogue beginner? Why is it so important to have shadow dance active for secret technic?
Hey! The reason we pair dance and sectec is that they line up naturally (both have a 1 minute cooldown that's reduced by spending combo points) and dance gives us damage buff to make sectec hit harder. In general, use your cooldowns as often as possible, keep rupture on targets that will live for a while, and build + spend as many combo points as you can! Thanks for the question, feel free to ask anything
2 daggers is best, shadow technique isn't normalized to offhand speed, so dagger is best for extra CP gen. Dagger attack speed in offhand is worth something crazy like 40 ilvl
I don't raid since I can't commit to a fixed raid schedule, but I'd recommend playing one of the builds from the class discord. This build will play similarly to what I talk about, but has some strong single target talents and drops the double rupture and AoE talents: BUQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAhAJJiQACSCSSSkIJRKJJRSiWSJCJJhWAAAA Enjoy!
I find shadow focus to be easier to play than shadow blades. For m+ builds, we can realistically move 2 points between shadow focus, shadow blades, and shuriken tornado. I don't want to give up tornado since it's so good for aoe, and I find shadow focus to be much easier to play than shadow blades if I"m not also taking shadow focus. Shadow blades sims a little higher than shadow focus, but i play more consistently with shadow focus. I may end up playing shadow focus + shadow blades and dropping tornado on high enough tyran keys
@@cocomojo-gg I’m not used to playing with tornado so I’d prefer using the other 2. If you make some videos trying both out in mythic plus that would be cool to watch
Great question! We get find weakness from improved backstab (crits from behind apply find weakness) and improved shuriken storm (SS crits apply find weakness) in the sub tree, so we already have very high uptime on FW (usually over 90% uptime). I almost never have to intentionally do something to apply FW; I will rarely shuriken storm in single target due to area denial preventing me from fighting something from behind to naturally apply FW. Otherwise I just get high uptime from fighting bosses from behind and pressing shuriken storm in aoe
Secret technique doesn’t work or I finally discovered that Blizzard Devs or GMs nerf accounts…7 combo points on a dummy with procs and Horns of Valor…you know how much damage I did? 11,553…and max 14,551
Ahh yeah, I think there's some bug with details as well where the damage from the shadow clones doesn't always show up for everyone. There's also a bug where sectech doesn't benefit from nightstalker... game in beta. Hopefully these issues get resolved soon
Hey! Rupture doesn't snapshot, which means that it you have rupture up and then enter dance it will do 30% more dam. Given this, you're better off having ruptures going and then having all your globals during dance deal direct dam to maximize the value of the damage bonus during dance. FYI this vid is from last season, so there's likely better info out there you should check out instead (: glhf
Shadowblades is good for single target, but is harder to play than shadow focus since you usually need to intentionally pool energy before going into dance. Shadow focus sims a bit lower than shadowblades, but i like it more since it's more consistent for me. We could also drop shuriken tornado on tyran weeks and take both shadow focus and shadowblades for more single target dam. I recommend trying out a few different builds to see what works best for you!
Haha thanks! I haven't watched his yet, but yoda is an amazing player and I've learned a ton from watching his streams. I'm sure his guide is good as well!
I think ER + KiR is the most fun rogue spec, and all the good outlaw specs are definitely strong. This build seems better in some dungeons (like AA or possibly NO), but is lacking so much utility that we get with ER + KiR outlaw. I think which is best to play will come down to dungeon, key level, team, everything really. Overall I'm super happy with the state of rogue in m+, we have a lot of viable builds that are all strong
@@christianbutcher542 Yeah I could see that. Outlaw's damage profile is very flat, albeit consistently high. Whereas sub and sin have some burst in there, which can be exciting to play. But since they revolve around strong cooldowns we have noticeable downtime, which feels relatively unimpactful. Luckily, all the rogue specs are in a very good spot right now, so choosing based on preference is perfectly reasonable IMO (:
@@christianbutcher542 How does one think Outlaw is boring, but Sub isnt in AoE lol? Sub is only slightly less boring in DF compared to SL(where you quite literally just spammed SS>BP non stop in AoE) and its still an incredibly simple, easy to execute, non-reactive spec in AoE. At least Outlaw is a dynamic spec where you have to react to procs, min-max RtB buffs and is very high APM...I actually have to focus in high keys playing Outlaw whereas with Sub im practically falling asleep half the time.
Thanks! Yeah sub is fun, I enjoy all the rogue specs so I just swap based on what i'm feeling or what I think is best for the dungeon i'm running. Luckily, all the specs are strong overall, so we can play whatever we like most :)
@@cocomojo-gg agreed, I've been playing all 3 specs. It's pretty weird they are all competitive, I've been rogue since TBC and it has never been like this.
Playing Assassination rogue right now and looking to switch - this guide was phenomenal, instant sub.
Thank you! Hope you enjoy sub :)
Much appreciated, that little replicating shadows trick boosted my aoe dps from 85k to well over 100k.
Big thanks for teaching me how to play a sub. Went from an 33k overall with 380+ ilvl to, 48k same dungeon with more knowledge Danse Macabre this made my SecT do such insane dmg! Big ups to you man!
Awesome! Stoked to hear that the tips helped you out! Keep it up (:
One of the very best guides i have seen on this site in years. Well done sir. Loved it.
Wow, thank you! I really appreciate the kind feedback (:
I’m maining a rogue again and I’m 353 ilvl atm doing maybe 33k dps in m2’s. But I did learn some nice tricks in such a short time. I’ll test it out today. Thank you Coco for this amazing guide.
Awesome! Sounds like you're owning already, I think that's around what I was doing near the start of the patch around that ilvl. Keep it up!
Very good and comprehensive guide. I also like your UI and WAs. Thanks for creating concent. I am impressed with the quality!
Finally a comprehensive Rogue build been struggling with finding one that makes sense 10/10 finally got a good rotation going on dummies
Thanks for the kind comment! Really happy to hear that the vid helped you out :)
@@cocomojo-gg 2 weeks later still loving sub and using what this guide thaught me. I have to ask how you get your gcd on your mouse like that it's siiiick
@@Nimsan hell yeah! Glad the vid was helpful. I use a slightly modified version of this for my mouse gcd: wago.io/cbJBOwkmy
I think I just changed the color, and maybe the size a bit
Instant sub! Very very helpful and to the point. Thank you. As mention in another comment, a video for tricks and skips in m+ would be great as well.
Thanks for the feedback! Yeah I love that idea, I'll work on that for one of my next videos (:
I fell asleep playing outlaw and woke up to this video on autoplay. Im very excited to vendor my swords when I log in! Thank you
Haha awesome! Glad you're pumped about the build :)
Thanks coco.. awesome guide. Really appreciate your help, I hope to see more great videos like this soon..
Thank you! Yeah I'm hoping to make some more guide content here pretty soon (: thanks for the support
What a phenomenal guide! Instant sub, pun intended :)
Thanks! (:
going hard on the new release hell yea your the man
Amazing guide mate! Was thinking of trying sub after only playing outlaw this season. This guide helped a ton to understand the rotation and the build overall. 👏👏
Thank you! Both outlaw and sub are feeling quite strong, so it's fun to have some options (:
Thank you for great video. I like playing sub rogue and don’t want to be pressured into Outlaw! The secret tech on single target is an eyes wide open moment. Never used on st!
Glad you enjoyed it! Luckily all the rogue specs are strong right now. Some are better than others in specific situations, but you can make them all work really well in any pve content. And yeah, if we could press sectech for every global then we would (:
Errors in rotation:
Never press Tornado in dance - It is a ~1.1% dps loss. You only press it BEFORE or AFTER shadow dance. I know Yoda does this, but it is incorrect play.
You can also tornado > Dance + SoD > 4x BP > SStorm > Sectech for some more minor gains.
In single target you can Tornado > Dance + SoD > GB > Evis > SS > Sectech.
Once you've cast Gloomblade once during dance you never press it again in that same dance.
2 target rotation outside of dance was incorrect - You cast Gloomblade outside of dance until there is 6s remaining on the Lingering Shadows buff, after which you Shuriken Storm.
The dance rotation in 2t *specifically* also changes to Dance +SS > Evis > SStorm > GB if at 4-5CP > Sectech or can swap SStorm > GB with the SS for slightly more damage on Evis.
Up to 6 targets the dance rotation is Dance + SS > BP > SStorm > Sectech when SnD is active. 7 targets or more you drop the SS for SStorm.
I know the video is a month old now and things fall out of date but it's really not bad as a start but incorrect information can form bad habits if you want to meaningfully improve when learning a spec.
Numbing is universally more valuable the higher you go - The cast speed reduction is huge + your tank will love you. 3% DR falls off pretty fast.
HUGE thanks for this! I think some of these were discovered after this vid was made, but some i just straight up missed. Thanks for giving me the heads up!
This is awesome. Simplified it perfectly for me. Im switching to Sub from Outlaw now!
Glad you enjoyed the vid! Luckily both sub and outlaw are in a really great spot right now. I think sub is a little better in most keys but you can safely play both or whatever you like most (:
@@cocomojo-gg 100%. I’ve been maining warlock. But main alt is rogue and liked outlaw but really enjoying sub a lot. Your video has helped a ton! I can see a lot more rogue in my future.
hello coco, great guides as always and great explanation
Thanks! (:
Is this still up to date? Your guides are great. How would it be altered for boss fights
Thanks! Yeah it's pretty close to up to date, check the pinned comment for some optimizations. I cover the single target rotation in the vid which you can use for bosses in m+. For raid, here's the recommended build: BUQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAAAAAEBkkICBIIJIJJRikEpkkEtAJlkQSSkWAAAA
It drops the AoE talents and picks up shadowblades and the first dance. The opener is a bit different for this as well: shadowstrike + symbols > gloomblade > rupture > dance > gloomblade > evis > shadowstrike > sectec
I always come back to sub rouge because I think it's my favorite class as a solo player
Yeah sub is really quite good, all the rogue specs are tbh! Feels good to have a bunch of viable options that play differently and have some unique strengths
@@cocomojo-gg I agree, the ability tree thing really makes it feel good
Awesome video!
Would be great if you could do a video about all those handy little tricks that rogues provide like the vanish situation you mentioned in this video, where to cloak or maybe shroud skips in M+
Thank you! I really appreciate the feedback, I think that's a great idea. I have some footage I can use, I'll work on putting together a comprehensive guide (:
@@cocomojo-gg awesome! Can’t wait!
love how you have combo pts over target. is that an addon?
That's part of elvui! There's a resource display option in the nameplate settings
hi what are you using for rotation casting on the right side above you damage tracker?
That is the action tracker plugin that comes with details damage meter! The default setting is some list view, but you can switch it to these icons instead
Thank you for the great guide.
Thanks, I've tried sub a few times in medium keys, although things die a bit fast for me to really practice this in a dungeon, the explanations you have are really helpful in different scenarios. I have a question about 2-3 target though, do you only shuriken storm + evis? Do you ignore rupture if there's only 2-3 targets at a time?
Glad you liked the vid! Yeah med or low keys can be tough, you can get more value out of sectec but way less value from rupture. In general you want to rupture any target that will live for at least 12 seconds at any target count
thanks a lot for the explanation! what stats do you prioritize for the gear?
Thanks for watching! It's best to sim all gear choices, but generally mastery is best for aoe, and crit and vers are strong overall. Try to avoid haste as much as you can, and higher ilvl is almost always a safe choice!
so its only dance / symbols you wanna line up with secret tech? some rogues were telling me they only use tech with everything, including cold blood, thistle tea but i do feel like youre able to use tech a lot less when u wait for everything. wasnt sure if worth
You definitely don't want to wait for everything, you'll miss a lot of sectec casts that way. You only line up dance and sectec since they end up having the same cooldown. I will tea with sectec in aoe if i am at max stacks or i have cold blood, otherwise i pool tea charges for single target fights since we get energy starved in single target very easily. In general you want to send everything on cooldown, while lining up dance + sectec (which happens naturally). The only time you aren't pressing your buttons on cooldown is if the pull is about to die and you won't get most of the value.
@@cocomojo-gg the goat, thank you
Great info thanks!!!!
Hey great Video! Please tell me what for addons you are using?? :)
Thanks! I use ElvUI for my unit frames, weakauras to track my CDs energy and combo points, and omnicd to track kicks + CC + party cooldowns. I have a bunch of other addons for minor things, but these 3 are what you're seeing in the vid. Here's a link to the ElvUI profile and weakauras if you want to try them out: wago.io/ykDFyJ5t6
Very helpful guide, thanks. What is the name of rotation tracker addon ?
Thanks! Glad it was helpful (: do you mean the action tracker above the damage meter? That's a plugin that comes with details!
Possibe you could share your keybinds? I struggle with finding efficient keybinds as sub rogue, as there are a lot of buttons to press.
Yeah I could share that info. I'll probably make a UI + keybinds vid at some point. For now, I use esdf to move then bind everything to the right and left of my hand. I also have a mouse with 4 buttons, so I have all of those + scroll wheel bound. And I use shift and control modifiers to get more binds out of all those buttons
I would suggest using a @cursor macro for rupture so you don't have to tab target
Yes! I've been using that for a while now and it's a game changer. Great for keeping a priority target while spreading ruptures
@@cocomojo-gg heck yah love the guide man still struggling on my rogue lol
Do you know how to make a script/weakaura that uses trick of the trade automaticly on the tank in your group?
Yeah! I use this weakaura: wago.io/8xGN251mS
Just follow the instructions for setting up the accompanying macro in the description. I've never had a problem in dungeons, but I don't know how it will work in raid with two tanks. You may want to swap to a mouse over or a hard coded macro for your raid tank
Brilliant guide thank you! Can anyone tell me the mouse GCD addon used here please?
Glad you liked it! That's a weakaura, I don't remember where I originally got it but I backed it up on wago, here's the link: wago.io/piDGgGT_s
I think it's purple by default? But you can change to whatever color you like
@@cocomojo-gg amazing thank you! 😊
Hola te saludo desde Perú, gracias por el tiempo que dedicas en realizar estos tutoriales, definitivamente ayudará a mucha gente. Por otro lado, quería consultarte sobre los addons que utilizas, me llamo mucho la atención el que se refleja los tiempos de las habilidades. Habrá alguna manera de poder copiarlos? Gracias por todo, Quedo atento a tus comentarios. Saludos.
Hello! I had to put this through google translate, but I think I understand what you mean. I'm glad you like the video :) I use elvui and weakauras for almost everything. My elvui profile and weakauras (spell cool downs) are here: wago.io/ykDFyJ5t6
Enjoy!
Whats the addond you're using that shows your resources and cool downs just below your character?
Also, sorry, what's the addon that shows your casted spells in sequence?
Hey! I use weakauras for all the cooldowns, buffs, energy and CP. There's a link in the description where you can find all of them to import if you want to try it out! Just install the weakauras addon first then use the import feature.
The spells i cast come from an action tracker plugin with details damage meter. It comes with details, so just install details and you're good to go! The default look is like a list, but you can change to be square icons, adjust the size, etc
Please make an assassination video for raid and m+!!! would so appreciate that!
Thanks for the feedback! I'll definitely make a sin guide at some point. I haven't played it since the original wrath xpac, so I'm excited to learn how it has changed since then!
great video man, a question, what are the best stats? I'm currently at 35 |% crit 50% mastery 8% haste and 13% versa.. what do you think?
Thank you! I sim all of my gear choices, but a reasonable stat prio is crit >= mastery ~= vers > haste. Your stats sound reasonable to me! I think that's roughly what I'm at too at 405ilvl
For single target then should you start using Eviscerate x2 then go full Black Powder? I get the idea of having maintenence buffs up all the time, tea if you go starved on energy. Should you always also spend Cold Blood with Secret Technique? im wondering because of the point with having the macro
Hey! For single target, we don't want to cast black powder at all. Three targets is when BP starts to do more damage than evis, so we'll press at 3 or more targets only.
And yeah, we always hold cold blood for sectec. The macro makes it so you don't have to think about it, just press sectec on cooldown and you'll get CB when it's available!
@@cocomojo-gg thanks! What about shuriken storm? Is that used on single targets?
@@unclecharlie5766 Almost never, we'll usually only use gloom blade or shadow strike for single target to build combo points. The only exception to this is if we can't position behind our target to naturally apply find weakness with gloom blade. In that case, it's worth to cast one shuriken storm at the start of dance to apply find weakness for the duration of dance (via the 100% crit from shuiken storm at the start of dance). This is very rare though since we can almost always play behind our target for nearly 100% find weakness uptime
@@WillLamond Gloomblade doesn't have a positional requirement for applying FW
How many stacks of Danse Macabre are you usually going for before pressing Secret technique?
At least 2 in aoe, and at least 3 in single target. For aoe you can SD -> BP -> SS -> sectec to get 2 stacks (3 for the follow up hits from sectec). For single target, weaving in one gloomblade gets us a 3rd stack
i noticed my cold blood/secret technique macro does not activate cold blood during shadow dance
Thanks for the comment! I've heard this before from others, but haven't experienced it myself. I heard it can happen if you press a shadow dance + symbols macro then immediately follow with a CB + sectech macro. I always delay sectech by at least one cycle of build cp -> finisher to get some danse stacks, but I should test to see if back to back macros may be the problem
Is it plater showing combo points above each target ? How do I configure this if so ?
I use elvui nameplates and it's some setting. I'll find it and reply again when I'm at my pc
I do crit > mastery build, is that bad for sub rogue with priority to sectec? May playing assas rogue would be better?
Mastery is definitely best for sub, but crit is a very good stat too. Basically all stats other than haste are good. I recommend having gear sets for each spec and upgrade items for each set when something new sims better that what you used to have
@@cocomojo-gg thx u bro I know that crit stacking good with tornado, coz force passive talent “reducing armor” so I chilled (:
what rotations addon is that that you're using?
I use weakauras for all the spell cooldowns and buffs in the middle, and the spell casts history on the right near the damage meter is an action tracker that's built in to details damage meter
@@cocomojo-gg thanks for the quick response. Any import recommendations for weak auras?
Is Symbol and Dance is on macro for you too? Going off the same time?
Yup! I just have a macro. I don't think there's a situation in dragonflight where you want to cast them separately while they're both up. There was one case like that in shadowlands so I used to press them separately. But now I just use a macro since we just want to send them both on cooldown
@@cocomojo-gg awesome thanks a lot!
@@cocomojo-gg btw I'm curious do you use other helpful macros for this build than the two we talked about? If so do you have a list for it?
In AoE, why don't we start with a rupture after the dance to get an extra stack?
And on a single target, is it not better to use an eviscerate during dance before ST for the same reason?
Hmm that's an interesting idea! I think that could be very strong when paired with a late tornado during dance. It will come down to the value tradeoff between the extra rupture uptime + 1 extra DM stack, vs the damage gained by fitting one more black powder into the dance. Something like full CP -> dance -> rupture -> storm -> BP -> tornado -> sectech -> BP spam. I'm going to try it out, but we may need some sim nerd to figure it out. Maybe this is the excuse I need to learn how to write simc APLs... :)
Oh, and for single target, absolutely you want to cast one evis before ST. I don't think I explained that clearly, but take a look at the action tracker above my damage meter and you'll see i'm fitting in one evis, building back to full CP, then pressing sectech.
Thanks for the questions and ideas! Hope you're liking the build and having fun playing rogue so far :)
You dont want to waste GCDs in dance, thats why you dont rupture during dance. Every GCD in dance is very valuable with the single dance build, and in AoE(lets say 6 target situation) its just a very low value GCD to use rupture during dance, using Black Powder is simply WAY more damage. In terms of Danse stacks, it doesnt matter if you rupture or Black Powder first, theyll give the same Danse stacks...except BP will do far more damage. You have plenty of time to put up/refresh Ruptures outside of Dance to farm your Dance CD back.
@@Handcannon77hard disagree with this sentiment. Sectec is massive damage, just as popping dance, so you want to empower it as much as possible. You’re only getting one every 30 seconds and it’s damage alone is competitive with black power being on a single GCD button . Because of this getting an extra stack of macabre is warranted because of how good sectec is. Any guide will tell you rupture is good in mass aoe during dance to get 5 stacks instead of 4. T while it is minmaxing, it is more damage nonetheless.
Was hoping some stat prio's would be tossed in there as well. Im assuming its Mastery and Crit?
Yeah that's great feedback, I didn't touch on gear or BiS trinkets or anything like that. You're right that mastery and crit are best for M+: mastery gives us stronger finishers and we're playing around secret technique. Crit helps make sectech hit harder, but also works along with seal fate to give extra combo points from crits. Vers is also a great stat, generally slightly lower value than crit but it's worth simming. And we should avoid haste altogether. A little haste is fine, but it's generally always our worst stat.
Sorry for overlooking stats! I'll include stat + gearing info in future vids. I really appreciate the feedback :)
@@cocomojo-gg No problem at all! Hope to see a Raid guide build as well if you find the time! Trying to make the move from outlaw because sub is alot more fun.
Is the counter for the amount of targets you're fighting included in one of the WAs?
Nah, that's one from fuu, here's the link: wago.io/NyFFoF1mQ
why the gloomblade before secret tech?
Great question! We gloomblade once during dance in single target to get an additional danse macabre stack. It's a damage gain to do this in single target but not in AoE
Any idea why the weakaura is only showing 5 combo points instead of 7?
Hey! That's strange, I just tried re-importing the WA and it's working for me. Try re-importing the latest version and ping me on discord if you want help troubleshooting: cocomojo#8004
Thanks for watching! Let me know in the comments what you think about this build or if you've tried it before.
If you enjoy the content, please consider subbing to help me out! Also, here's a link to my discord where you can chat with me and other gamers about WoW and mythic+: discord.gg/6ssBNm2Kg4
Errata + corrections (Thanks to @Kieron!)
* tornado in dance is a ~1% dps loss. Press tornado before or after dance instead!
* In 2 target fights, gloomblade is higher dps than shurkien storm when lingering shadows has > 6 seconds remaining.
* In 2 target fights during shadow dance, the optimal rotation is Dance + shadowstrike > evis > SStorm > gloomblade if at 4-5CP > sectech.
* On up to 6 targets during dance, we want to cast one shadowstrike to get an additional danse macabre stack before casting sectech: Dance + shadowstrike > BP > SStorm > sectech
What addons do you use / tips for set up of that central console with energy and combo points? Do you have a video on that?
@@kazaroth Hey! I use Elvui for the unit frames, and weakauras for all the cooldowns, buffs, and energy/cp. I have a link the video description with all of the different parts! I'll also consider making a vid going over the different things in my UI, I've been getting this question more and more lately
I wish I could give you 100 likes. Even though I enjoyed Yoda's video of this build and you got this build from Yoda, imo you explained it much better than he did. Not dissin Yoda. TYVM brotha. I have this vid saved and often rewatch it and link it to other guildies in Discord.
@@ominai1877 wow thanks for the nice comment! Super happy to hear you liked the video (:
How do you get the sound when your cooldowns are back up?
That's a weakaura! Here's the weakaura suite that includes the sound cue: wago.io/RVtcFsiyA
It current makes the robot beep when symbols of death comes off CD, which is a bit of a relic from shadowlands when we synched all our CDs with symbols. I think it'd be better to make a sound cue when dance + sectech are off CD since sub revolves around those cooldowns now instead of symbols
How do you make your spells that come off cd glow on your wa?
I add a glow effect under display, then add a condition to enable it when the ability is off cooldown. I will sometimes also add other conditions, for example: when blade flurry is off cooldown but i still have more than 3 seconds of BF left, then it won't glow since I don't want to refresh it too early
Hey Coco, loved the vídeo! I was wondering, could you Share the middle weakaura you're using for the Cada belos/around the energy bar?
Been giving sub a try again after struggling with Sin's dmg output and I still forget some Sub stuff, mainly because of how cooldowns usage is with Danse Macabre and single SD
Thanks bud! Yeah here's the link to my full UI, you can just get the cooldowns and buffs weakaura if you want: wago.io/ykDFyJ5t6
Enjoy!
Short Questionen: must i wait with CDs in m+? AS Outlaw i Spam every CD and Not hold for Boss. Can i Play SUB so?
Sub is pretty much the same as outlaw that way! We get cooldown reduction on dance and sectec for every combo point we spend, so you'll have damage very often. It's okay to hold dam for a short time to line up with important things (like the damage amp phase of bird boss in AA), but generally you should send CDs as often as possible
@@cocomojo-gg Nice Then i will try this Spec. Thx for this Guide. Is Patch 10.0.5 and this Changes Bad for sub?
@@neihl9948 No prob! Sub is actually getting a small buff in 10.0.5! A talent we don't really play in raid or m+ is a little stronger, so the spec won't really change for many players. There's a decent chance that sub becomes the strongest rogue spec for m+ overall and gets played everywhere since outlaw is catching a couple smallish nerfs, and already does less overall dps than sub
Is there an ideal number of ruptures to get up before switching to black powder in AOE?
We want to rupture all targets that will live at least 12 seconds. The way I like to do this is get some ruptures up while the tank is grouping, then get dance + sectech on cd, bp throughout dance, then get the rest of the ruptures up between cd windows
@@cocomojo-gg Awesome, thanks for the reply!
Great guide. How come you don't take shadow blades ?
Thank you! For m+ builds, we can realistically move 2 points between shadow focus, shadow blades, and shuriken tornado. I don't want to give up tornado since it's so good for aoe, and I find shadow focus to be much easier to play than shadow blades if I"m not also taking shadow focus. Shadow blades sims a little higher than shadow focus, but i play more consistently with shadow focus. I may end up playing shadow focus + shadow blades and dropping tornado on high enough tyran keys
Nice video man, i'm main rogue since legion and im never be interest in sub cuz i always thought it has some of most difficult rotation, but its kinda simple tho
Thanks! Yeah it's not too bad imo, I think it's easier than it was in SL since there's way less cooldowns syncing. Feels really good in keys with consistent 5+ mob pulls
@@cocomojo-gg yeah, for sure, in legion u had to sync so much things also and i was like "man i have only 2 hands wtf" lol, but now for me its the most fun spec of them all
why acrobatic instead of improved ambush? im a new rogue so im trying to understand :D
Thanks for asking! You can pick either acrobatic strikes or improved ambush, but I find that acrobatic strikes is much easier to play and you don't lose much overall dps according to sims. Acrobatic makes it easier to hit all mobs in AoE, and lets us play a bit safer during boss fights. Whereas improved ambush gives us a couple percent more dps on boss fights, but doesn't do anything for AoE. It may be worth making this switch during tyrannical weeks to optimize for boss dps
Can anyone explain why we take shuriken tornado as talent ? I can manually use shuriken storm ? :D
Shuriken storm costs 3 fewer gcds and much less energy than casting shuriken storm 4 times, which gives you more gcds and energy to spend on other abilities!
@@cocomojo-gg okay, thanks for that explanation :)
Hello, is it just me or is this build pretty hard to understand for a rogue beginner? Why is it so important to have shadow dance active for secret technic?
Hey! The reason we pair dance and sectec is that they line up naturally (both have a 1 minute cooldown that's reduced by spending combo points) and dance gives us damage buff to make sectec hit harder. In general, use your cooldowns as often as possible, keep rupture on targets that will live for a while, and build + spend as many combo points as you can!
Thanks for the question, feel free to ask anything
@@cocomojo-gg thank you! :)
Is Dagger + Sword /Axe fine ? Or just dbl Dagger ?
2 daggers is best, shadow technique isn't normalized to offhand speed, so dagger is best for extra CP gen. Dagger attack speed in offhand is worth something crazy like 40 ilvl
Can you make a raid guide? Or is it pretty much same :)
I don't raid since I can't commit to a fixed raid schedule, but I'd recommend playing one of the builds from the class discord. This build will play similarly to what I talk about, but has some strong single target talents and drops the double rupture and AoE talents: BUQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAhAJJiQACSCSSSkIJRKJJRSiWSJCJJhWAAAA
Enjoy!
how do u use shadowstrike while u re not in stealth?
Shadowdance! Dance lets us use stealth abilities. It's best to use shadowstrike to build combo points while in dance at 1-3 targets
do u have an addon video?
I don't but I'll consider making one! I've been getting this question more lately
Why do you take shadowfocus over shadowblades?
I find shadow focus to be easier to play than shadow blades. For m+ builds, we can realistically move 2 points between shadow focus, shadow blades, and shuriken tornado. I don't want to give up tornado since it's so good for aoe, and I find shadow focus to be much easier to play than shadow blades if I"m not also taking shadow focus. Shadow blades sims a little higher than shadow focus, but i play more consistently with shadow focus. I may end up playing shadow focus + shadow blades and dropping tornado on high enough tyran keys
@@cocomojo-gg I’m not used to playing with tornado so I’d prefer using the other 2. If you make some videos trying both out in mythic plus that would be cool to watch
I really don’t understand why no find weakness?
Great question! We get find weakness from improved backstab (crits from behind apply find weakness) and improved shuriken storm (SS crits apply find weakness) in the sub tree, so we already have very high uptime on FW (usually over 90% uptime). I almost never have to intentionally do something to apply FW; I will rarely shuriken storm in single target due to area denial preventing me from fighting something from behind to naturally apply FW. Otherwise I just get high uptime from fighting bosses from behind and pressing shuriken storm in aoe
Secret technique doesn’t work or I finally discovered that Blizzard Devs or GMs nerf accounts…7 combo points on a dummy with procs and Horns of Valor…you know how much damage I did? 11,553…and max 14,551
Ahh yeah, I think there's some bug with details as well where the damage from the shadow clones doesn't always show up for everyone. There's also a bug where sectech doesn't benefit from nightstalker... game in beta. Hopefully these issues get resolved soon
@@cocomojo-gg Yeah especially if my damage doesn't show on the DPS meter and people don't want me anymore in their groups
Why not rupture in dance winth 30% dmg bonus? Xd
Hey! Rupture doesn't snapshot, which means that it you have rupture up and then enter dance it will do 30% more dam. Given this, you're better off having ruptures going and then having all your globals during dance deal direct dam to maximize the value of the damage bonus during dance.
FYI this vid is from last season, so there's likely better info out there you should check out instead (: glhf
@@cocomojo-gg ah ty soo much mate ! So with this in mind always rupture off dance . Thank you have a nice day keep up the good work!
@@SoulShadeHUN no prob! That's right. Get your cooldowns going, and maintain rupture and slice between cooldown windows
Ty
why no shadowblades?
Shadowblades is good for single target, but is harder to play than shadow focus since you usually need to intentionally pool energy before going into dance. Shadow focus sims a bit lower than shadowblades, but i like it more since it's more consistent for me. We could also drop shuriken tornado on tyran weeks and take both shadow focus and shadowblades for more single target dam. I recommend trying out a few different builds to see what works best for you!
@@cocomojo-gg Good answer, thanks friend, btw very nice guide. :)
Your guide is better than yoda’s
Haha thanks! I haven't watched his yet, but yoda is an amazing player and I've learned a ton from watching his streams. I'm sure his guide is good as well!
Outlaw still better
I think ER + KiR is the most fun rogue spec, and all the good outlaw specs are definitely strong. This build seems better in some dungeons (like AA or possibly NO), but is lacking so much utility that we get with ER + KiR outlaw. I think which is best to play will come down to dungeon, key level, team, everything really. Overall I'm super happy with the state of rogue in m+, we have a lot of viable builds that are all strong
@@cocomojo-gg what a thoughtful response to a not so thoughtful comment
The problem is that outlaw is incredibly boring to play. Sub and assassination are are both so much more rewarding in my opinion. 🤷♂️
@@christianbutcher542 Yeah I could see that. Outlaw's damage profile is very flat, albeit consistently high. Whereas sub and sin have some burst in there, which can be exciting to play. But since they revolve around strong cooldowns we have noticeable downtime, which feels relatively unimpactful. Luckily, all the rogue specs are in a very good spot right now, so choosing based on preference is perfectly reasonable IMO (:
@@christianbutcher542 How does one think Outlaw is boring, but Sub isnt in AoE lol? Sub is only slightly less boring in DF compared to SL(where you quite literally just spammed SS>BP non stop in AoE) and its still an incredibly simple, easy to execute, non-reactive spec in AoE. At least Outlaw is a dynamic spec where you have to react to procs, min-max RtB buffs and is very high APM...I actually have to focus in high keys playing Outlaw whereas with Sub im practically falling asleep half the time.
Great video man, I've been playing sub for quite some time now. I refuse to play Outlaw, it's just TOO boring.
Dacness@Area52
Thanks! Yeah sub is fun, I enjoy all the rogue specs so I just swap based on what i'm feeling or what I think is best for the dungeon i'm running. Luckily, all the specs are strong overall, so we can play whatever we like most :)
@@cocomojo-gg agreed, I've been playing all 3 specs. It's pretty weird they are all competitive, I've been rogue since TBC and it has never been like this.
what addon is that for the mobs health bars
those are nameplates from elvui! here's a link to my elvui profile if you want to import it for yourself: wago.io/RxWhGq1ko