What if Western Rome Survived Instead of the East? | Alternate History
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- Опубліковано 27 бер 2024
- In this alternate history scenario I explore a world where the Western Roman Empire managed to survive, while the Eastern Roman, or Byzantine Empire fell. In a sense, an opposite world of the one we know.
3:34
Byzantine Anatolia: "Thank you Sassanids, you freed us from the Caliphate!"
Sassanids: "Oh I wouldn't say freed, more like under new management..."
Lmao it fits
The biggest criticism of mine would be the assumption that Rome continuously had competent, or "better than absolutely insane" emperors in this alt timeline.
Usually Rome expanded even when under bad emperors due to the fact that the praetorian guard were the ones which assassinated and placed emperors on the throne in the majority of cases and so wielded significant influence within the Empire. Because of this fact, the militarist and expansionist praetorian guard were able to expand the Empire.
@@togerboy5396 true but that doesnt necessarily mean the praetorian guard would sustain rome until the 1800s
@@drained_yayoEspecially when you consider that IRL they couldn't sustain Rome for anywhere near that length of time
Yeah mine as well, no way Roman Empire would last in that state until 1800s
in the real timline rome only had a handful of truly terrible emperors in its almost 2000 years of existance. Even if there are a few really bad ones, there would most likely also be some Augustus/Aurelian level great ones to balance it out and keep rome powerful
I think you forgotten the fact that the majority of the grain in the Roman Empire came from Egypt. There will be many more large famines, as we’ve seen causes a lot of assassinations.
A lot of the grain came from North Africa in general not just Egypt. Tunisia was very fertile back then.
For the western romans their grain came from carthage
@@pocketman202not enough compared to Egypt to feed Rome and its entire Italian peninsula.
@@Beyonder1987actually yeah I think there was I mean I don’t know for a fact but North Africa was the bread basket of the empire. In fact the government subsided much of the grain industry in Africa.
The implementation of a version of the theme system in the West might make strides to combine agricultural output and civil defense but yeah there would probably be a gap. The push into Germany might be partially driven by the desire to reappropriate land and clear forests for farmland.
Interesting and well thought out but I have a few criticisms:
1. If The West didn’t fall, I seriously doubt the East would fall, there was to many ingrained advantages the the East had
2. I think you allow to have the west maintaining to much land, I could see a Redoubt forming around Italy, Tunisia, Libya, Dalmatia, Southern France and the islands
3. I can’t imagine the Arabs being able to take and hold the east with west Rome still existing, I could see a Justinian style reconquest after the disintegration of the eastern Roman Empire and attack when all three of the east are weak
But this is just my critique great video!!!!
It’s not inconceivable the eastern empire was nearly razed to the ground from Attila the Hun and the east lost much of its army when it tried to retake Roman Africa from the vandals. Yes the east definitely had some advantages but there were a few times that the west could’ve rebounded.
@@pocketman202it was the location. Anatolia and constantinople was just perfect location to hold a capital and heartland of the empire. It has the geography as advantage unlike the flat lands of Italy
@@Beyonder1987Italy is not flat it’s very mountainous
@@Beyonder1987plus I was able to do it in Attila total war lol
People seams to not realize growing division between East and West. East Rome basically stop speak Latin and basically become only Rome by name. As such increasingly ostracized Latin Provinces, would elect own Emperor in one time or another. Meanwhile Constantinople was facing extremely powerful Islamic conquest and being de facto self-isolated and passive. They would fall in one time or another. While in West Rome religion would be over time strong enough glue for them to launch own campaigns against Arabs. What is, what basically did happen. Dues Vult
I find it hard to believe the Western Roman Empire would remain so stable for so long.
One would assume it would behave somewhat similarily to China, where it would colapse into huge civil wars every couple of centuries, and then sucessor states attempt to reunify it.
Actually we can say Western did survived w/ different form.it comes to HRE.and uh after the schism the eastern was more absorb into greek root.the real romans civilization and ideas only stay till today in western hemisphere.
Yeah which would of ultimately led to its demise just like the Kingdom of Frankia. The amount of invading tribes didn't stop with the early Germanic tribes. Slavs, Magyars, and other Turkic/Slavic tribes were coming into Europe. The only reason the Bulgarians were haunted was because of the Bzyantines but with them gone, Bulgaria realistically inherited Constantinople and Greece. The magyars would of had space to Seattle further west and push into modern day German lands. While Italy would be divided by Serbs to the north and Bulgars to the south.
If I were to have one critique of this video, it would be naming the republic Latinia instead of The Second Roman Republic
I doubt. It would be like the Eastern Roman Empire they would have a strong Roman identity
Yeah, the Roman Empire renaming itself Latinia doesn't sit well with me either.
I've been looking for a good Western Roman Empire alternate history for a while, so thanks a lot!
My only real criticism is I think it's kind of silly that Rome would rebrand itself as Latinia.
Surely by this point everyone would be so thoroughly Romanized that they'd never give up the name, and would just go back to being the Roman Republic.
First of, Roman Citizen didn't replace local populations like in video game. While Latinized, they would still have own dialects of Latin and post-barbaric traditions. Rome would become more a symbol then actual entity, as there were objective reasons why city lost importance after Edict of Caracalla. As such they would most likely use name of strongest province, then switch to more Sacred version of Empire. Only to rebounce in game of great powers and finally probably unite by peaceful means. Like, you know. What it actually did happen.
@@TheRezro I disagree via my understanding that the Byzantine Empire still called themselves Roman a thousand years after they lost Rome, and I heard that the population still called themselves Roman for centuries EVEN after being conquered by the Ottomans.
Less than having a dialect of Latin, these were Greek speakers, who didn't have the city of Rome, and weren't even on the Italian Peninsula.
But most importantly, having this alternate history go from the Roman Empire to the Roman Republic activates my history autism.
@@basedstreamingatcozy-dot-t7126 I'm not talking here about Byzantine. Beside that they become culturally more Greek, actually proving the point.
But contrary to modern perception based on Anglosphere media (what was only marginally Roman), people in West Europe in fact also did recognize themselves as Romans (especially in Romania). Even if they also did identify themselves with local province. The same way as someone don't stop being American when he call himself a Californian. And that is exactly what happen in West Rome.
There was no Germanic conquest. I mean, there were few incidents (especially Longobards), but actually majority of Germans were allowed to enter Rome as form of alliance against Attila. And later they serve in Legions, gaining local influence. In fact it is why they were roaming so freely.
With Byzantine becoming more Greek and ignoring Roman citizenship of Latin speaking population. Empire fall apart. But it is not that people stop being Roman. In fact even when Byzantine fall they officially transfer title of Emperor to Spain. What at the time was strongest. And for reminder Otton III of HRE also was Byzantine royalty.
Notion of West being West Rome (because it always was) was not that weird in Medieval Times. Where most people did recognize some level of unity by Roman Christianity. It was somewhat ignored in age of Nationalism. But those influences never go away.
Actually, if the empire was toppled, most likely we will see the formation of the Republic of Romania. 😂
Historically, the Roman Empire did always refer to itself as the Roman Republic, even after it no longer functioned as one, similar to many modern-day authoritarian regimes that call themselves a "Republic". Even the Byzantine Empire continued to call itself Rome. It's highly unlikely that a continued Western Empire would change it's name.
Great scenario, but I have two criticisms. First Rome wouldnt just rename itself Latinia, they would call themselves something like the second roman republic. Second, with a strong Rome and a Sassanid empire that isnt weakened by the war against the Byzantines, there is no way Islam is able to expand like this, they would propably be driven back to the Arab peninsula and completely die out within a century at most
Theyre gonna have trouble making a lot of headway into the deserts of the penninsula. And with the collapse of the east the Arab islamic powers will have chunks of the eastern meddeterrainian to fall back on for extra strength.
Funny how Poland got pushed to parts where Lithuania was
Honestly the East was too well positioned to just die like the Western Empire fell. The West honestly could have survived in a reduced form like the East later did. The Franks though would be a major rival for the west like how the Bulgarians were for the Eastern Empire.
The Sassanids even in otl while conquering parts of the East were severely overstretched. They couldn’t hold such lands for so long.
I agree. The West should have consolidated hard around Italy and Africa (Tunisia) and tried to focus on holding those provinces while letting the barbarians overrun the other provinces that were of lesser value. One the Barbarian waves begin to lessen, the Western Empire could have broken out and reconquered.
You have to take into consideration that the Arabs took advantage of Byzantium and Persia being weakened due to a recent war between them that resulted in a stalemate.
Oh nvm
Neatling alt hist/alt future videos give me another reason to wake up in the morning
Hey this is gonna sound suspiciously specific but aren't you the guy who left comments on Wynncraft Musescore music by Xeoran?
I am also a Xeoran Wynncraft piano sheet music enjoyer. small world
@@jehooft8569 oh yeah I am
hi, nice to meet you
Outstanding! I loved your interesting, speculative alternate history.
The idea of the western part outright conquering stuff from the east only makes sense if you think the Western/Eastern Roman Empires were different states in competition with eachother, which is false.
The split was purely to help with the administration of the empire. Until the fall of the west, it was still just one Roman Empire, but with two different centers of administration...
I think this was sort of a callback to the real world events of the byzantines reconquering parts of Italy AFTER the west had already fallen. Could be wrong, in which case I agree with you
@@KingoftheWelsh Prettysure thats what he was going for. And the video had the remaining parts of the eastern empire actually becoming more of a junior partner rather then being conquered
Ive always thought about this idea and wondered... great video!
This Alt-History has been my curiosity since I heard about Rome. Thanks.
holy shit I've been trying to find a similar scenario for AGES, thank you!
Amazing Alternate History timeline video btw :)
Really great video. I'am excited to see more.
surprisingly good, subscribed in the first couple minutes. Tbh I was expecting a trashy slideshow.
Dude, this is sooo underrated! I've never seen such a detailed video! (Also how did poland developed so far east? I don't think you mentioned it and I couldn't find a reason)
Neatling, only you know what will happen next, please continue with this story!
I’ve been waiting for this kind of scenario for quite a while
Beautiful maps as always :-)
This Alternative history video actually makes sense to me, its so well made!
Much better scenario for 1800-1900
Simply incredible, well done.
babe wake up, neatling uploaded yet another GOATED video
What if the Indo-European Migrations/invasions never occured??
Really neat alternate history!
Excellent vid
U did a terrific job ❤️🙌🏻
Hey. That was cool. I like your idea. Do more stuff.
Very Nice video keep it up!👍
What if germany’s economy somehow grew to the same extent as japan’s?
It did tho, it surpassed it
@@Kaiser_Polaris I was talking about germany in 1990
Make italys grow too
@@hellboyhero7819Italy was never a unified country until the 19th century and its economy is completely dependant in the North
@@enderallgames8716 It was literally dividend back then. This would be possible only without communism.
Great video! I would love it if you remake the what if eatern rome survived in this style and depth
I disagree with the slavery part of the video. By the late Roman empire slavery was already being faze out. And i don't see the possibility of a transatlantic slave trade. The Portuguese learned of the slave trade from the arabs but in this timeline they are weaker so that is unlikely to happen. Because there isn't an arab slave trade. That also significantly changes the history of africa.
Will there be videos where they will tell about the history on the map, and not about alternative history?
Amazing in every way
This is pretty cool, and very well done. One question, though; how did the Islamic caliphates survive in Egypt and the Levant? In this scenario, the Byzantine systems had become corrupted and disappeared before they arrived, meaning they would lack that "head start" to form a stable empire.
Plus, the border in North Africa between the Fatimid and Roman Empire seem hard to defend, for either side. I think the odds of a heavily Christianized, and stable, Western Roman Empire, seeing another religion conquer the "holy land" (And, what they perceived, to be rightful Roman land), in addition to the regions being extremely rich, economically, and *not* hating them are very slim.
Now, would they win? That's another question (I'd argue yes, as in this scenario they're essentially just Egypt with some Arabian holdings). Either way, Rome would probably we *way* more active of a power in the Western Med.
Side note: How did the West reform to retain stability? My favorite method's always been a Senate-Elected successor, stronger constitution, and a loyal Officer Corps. (I would also bet that the printing press would be invented far earlier, as Senatorial campaigns require a lot of writing)
I agree, I think Western Rome would at least try to take Egypt. Another scenario is that Western Rome could have made the Muslims a vassal (similar to Ptolemaic Egypt) and defend them from Sassanids and Greeks.
This reads exactly like an alternate 769 AD start for Crusader Kings II !
This is a good video by virtue of Norway retaining its possessions in Bohuslan, Jamtland, the North Sea & the Kola peninsula
This was a lot of fun.
I will probably edit or mod a CK3 scenario just to play that.
Fallen Eagle, perhaps?
Also one big critique, the eastern Roman Empire survived but went on a slow decline, yet the western Roman Empire never goes on this slow decline
Love this video
Loved your video. I would propose that the Mt. Lebanon area would be organized into rump state, as it was in our world, playing off the major powers against each other. Such a state would have the sea to the west. The Lebanese and Anti-Lebanese Mountains to the East, the environs of Antioch to the North and Mt. Hebron
Great video❤🎉 also, what if napoleon never existed? Would the HRE still exist to this day?
This must be the timeline majorian was never betrayed and aurelian wasn't assassinated
Very cool, I had not thought about the changes caused by a stronger Sassanid and was not expecting you to go as far down the line as colonisation, a colonial Rome would be a very interesting idea.
Excellent alt hist!
The hardest thing for me to buy is that 'Denmark' Manages to keep southern 'Sweden'.
FInally some Centuries Spanning Alt-Hist, and with that goodness of Stats for the Alternate World, and With having Few Centuries of still centralized State would certainly Make Industrial Revolution come Faster, Either Way It was super Enjoyable so thank you for the Hard Work.
And Man Seeing Germany be so different Looking and Poland really is weird but i loved it none the less.
Good alternate history must come from factual possibilities. And we can't ask what if Roman Empire would not fall, it it actually never did. East Rome basically made it up, to cancel citizenship of Latin Population.
Fun fact: Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, French and Romanian are in fact dialects of Latin. Rome was not conquered by Germans, because those Germans were literally a Roman Citizens operating as auxiliaries to Legions.
@@TheRezro And i don't give a rat's ass about a Possible Alternate History i want some Good Alternate History, since if i wanted to watch some Possible History i would watch a documentary so stop bothering people that's don't care
@@KiraiKatsuji Good alternative history is based on reality. Otherwise you end as HoI4 player.
@@TheRezro Good Alternate History is an Alternate History that is Intresting as otherwise it's better to just read actual history since it has more depth
@@TheRezro And any Alternate "Realistic" History is same way fictional as any wacky alternate History since it's not what happened
As a Florensian, we are the true successor state of Rome.
It's better the east that survived and its a stain on European history that they were too divided to help them in their last moments
I personally feel things would be a bit different than what you described, though thats part of the wonders of Alt-History, everyone could have different views on outcomes. Like I don't really see The Western Roman Emprie staying that big for that long. I would imagine that the british isles would end up out of the empire and be more of a blend of celtic and scandinavian. Alongside more land would be lost around the Netherlands and Luxembourg. Also I feel with a version of enlightenment and revoloutionary thought there would be more breakaway states in Latinia.
That's kind of my feeling as well, though I might just be looking for a scenario with more parallels in direction with the historical ERE. I was thinking similarly that a collapse in the east might take some pressure away from the west, but I was imagining a scenario where northern Gaul would still be lost, along with Britain. Narbonensis and northern Italy becoming a sometimes contested frontier. I could see Egypt being retained/reconquered by the west at least for a time after the fall of the east.
Or the opposite. Without Charlemagne, the Western Rome could have had the Charlemagne-like expansion into Germany and taken the lands that would eventually encompass the HRE.
"In the midst of battle, when chaos reigns and fear grips the heart, remember this: the true battlefield lies within oneself. Conquer the doubts, the temptations of weakness, and the tumult of emotions. For it is not the external foe that defines victory, but the inner strength and resilience of the warrior's spirit." - Marcus Aurelius
Very good video
An interesting idea, but I feel you missed one major point: The Black Death. That would likely have shaken things up in the Empire.
I love how it ended up being 10 times more advabced than east was in our time line
The idea that the sassanids lose to the arabs in this scenario is preposterous to me. You have an experienced army of veteran shock cavalery and horse archers with better gear, and greek fire on their side loose to opportunistic tribesmen they outnumber 2 to one? I don't think so. They might unify Arabia, but they wont take out the sassanian juggernaut on equal grounds.
They wouldn't even leave them to unite Arabia
Can someone tell me the name of the music playing in the video in the minute 4:25 ?
Thank you
1:17 what is that big water lake right above Gibraltar? I looked on google maps and it wasn't there.
I love that this video actually creates an alternate timeline rather than just saying "I can't accurately predict this because it is so different" like thats the whole point of alternate history, its not supposed to be accurate or similar to today's timeline.
There’d probably be no England, France, Spain, or Portugal. Considering that the collapse of the western portion of the empire allowed those countries to be established.
Can you bring the world's map from Some of Harry Turtledove's books?
Can someone tell me the name of the ost used in the minute 4:25 ?
Thank you
Ur crimally underrated
Great video Neatling I'm not your editor you can do you want with your channel but I have a few ideas if you haven't already thought of them.
What if both western and eastern Rome fell
what if the Mongol empire never existed
what if the bronze age collapse never happened
what if goliath killed David
what if ww1 never happened
what if the Europeans partitioned china in the nineteenth century like they did Africa
what if the Americas where never discovered
just a couple of ideas
What if east germany absorbed west germany?
continue with a part 2 please
I also think this isnt a crazy scenario, the East was often the first ones to get the brunt of the invasions, they just couldn't go far due to reforms that happened when it came to the fortified cities, and Constantinople of course. The West was just an easier target and so that's where people went. Not to mention the Huns(and goths) took the wealth out of the East, the smaller tribes only had one place to go.
4:34 Milan became so prosperous that in the the 700s they have not one but TWO Duomos! Way before the completion of the actual one in the late XIX century. Thus creating the neogothic style 1000 years before our timeline
Good video, but one small suggestion is to maybe switch up country naming convention a little. Because ending every country in Europe with a "ia" sounds a bit weird.
I think the fact that most of the original colonial powers never rise in this universe is insane
I legitimately cannot see the caliphate conquering that much if the power controlling those regions was even remotely stable, which you imply the sassanids would be
Somewhere in an alternate universe there’s a video by this guy explaining our timeline
This looks better for Europe than actual history
I really appreciate this video for several reasons. It's very well-thought-out and focuses on the wider world instead of just Rome. However, two things I disagree with are:
1. Arab Expansion: I think you hit the nail on the head with Sassanian expansion, as the Sassanian always wanted to recreate the old Achaemenid Persian Empire, however if the east collapsed, it would not have led to the disastrous wars which would have led to the power vacuum which was the catalyst for Muslim expansion. Without the Byzantine-Sassanian wars, Islam would likely spread more gradually or would stay within Arabia altogether.
2. Early Renaissance: With a quicker collapse of the east, we would see Persia preserve Greek cities like Alexandria, and we would also see an exodus of Greeks into the Roman Empire. In our timeline, one of the causes of the Renaissance was the influx of Greek ideas into Italy after the fall of Constantinople, and with the likely preservation of classical works by the Sassanians, we might see a much more rapidly advancing civilization not just in Rome but in Western Eurasia altogether, which would have unforseen consequences on European imperialism, if imperialism were to still occur of course.
Overall, a great video, I just couldn't resist putting in my two cents!
I've a question. Would the Baltic lands really be conquered by Germanic and Slavic peoples in this timeline, considering even the Teutonic Order failed?
I don't think there would've been an Abbasid Caliphate without the Umayyads having conquered Persia and parts of Central Asia as that was the base of support of the Abbasid revolution
What if the Holy Roman Empire never existed?
Then the Medival Maps would be so much prettier
@@KiraiKatsuji
The German bordergore its precius to me
I've got a question can you make a scenario with what if the macedonian Empire survived
Burgundy? Slave Revolt?
Is that a mother liker TN...
Bro we need a part 2
What is pannonia in this universe? Avar? Slavic? Germanic?
Likely somewhat diverse, being home to several minority groups. But majority Germanic.
The Germanic people in this scenario live much further east. And the Kingdom of Pannonia would've been unified and established by the Gepids, or Kingdom of Gepidia. The Germanic people of Pannonia are however separate from the "Germans" to their north, as their geographic separation, as well as influence from other cultures, have caused them to diverge linguistically and culturally
So they're Germanic, but not German. Like how Swedes or the Dutch are Germanic, but not German.
for some reasomn cant find the music at the timelapse, anyone got the name?
What if Confucius was never Born?
I would like to see a 'What if the Achaemenids Came Back' after the death of Alexander. The last living Achaemenid dynasty members was Amestris Achaemenid and her sons who were rulers out of the city of Heraclea Pontica.
Powers rise and fall, but Rome remain constant. I love this sentence
Great video. Though i think industrialisation and such technological advancements would have come much earlier. Take note: rome was already practicing an early form of industrial manufacturing with small factories to produce refined goods like dye and potted fish, etc.
I though it was very interesting that the anglo-saxons still managed to become a single entity in this scenario. Good watch.
Cool video! I am personally somewhat skeptical that there would be much Roman presence in the Western Hemisphere if they were as technologically stagnant as you describe. In particular, I'd expect North America to be more Celtic, German, and Norse than Latin. Not a criticism at all, I enjoyed the video.
3:15 "has to face the Avar Khaganate" - *Proceeds to use a map that mostly showcases the extent of the First Bulgarian Empire from the late 9th and into the 10th century* I wheezed
i loved this video
Please do what if Venus was Habitable?
Fascinating
I feel if the west survived and prospered, they would’ve at least been much more aggressive with mapping out Africa. Maybe not going towards the new world, but definitely traveling the coast of Africa, trying to get to the Middle East, especially with a seeming lack of a trade state like Venice who mediated the trade of spices
It’s odd that the west fell first when you think about the geography of it; it’s nestled in the corner of Europe with relatively defensible borders. While the East, sandwiched by strong foes on all sides, persevered for much longer. The fall of the west seems due to sheer incompetence in leadership, more than the realities of external pressure.
Dude it was literally right next door to some of the most powerful and aggressively expansionist tribes in Germania who all attacked it when it was already weakened and decaying, of course it fell
While the east was much more stable economically and had access to lucrative trade routes that became inaccessible to the West
hey, great video, could you tell me what ai you are using please ?
OpenAI's GPT 4
@@Neatling thank you
You would think that the Magyars would conquer Pannonia because that or the Po valley, which would have been unattainable in this timeline was their goal (even the remaining Avars joined the Hungarians historically), but I guess the map just changes on the whims of the mapmaker
I love how Novgorod still exists in this timeline