What if Western Rome Survived Instead of the East? | Alternate History
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- Опубліковано 8 лют 2025
- In this alternate history scenario I explore a world where the Western Roman Empire managed to survive, while the Eastern Roman, or Byzantine Empire fell. In a sense, an opposite world of the one we know.
The biggest criticism of mine would be the assumption that Rome continuously had competent, or "better than absolutely insane" emperors in this alt timeline.
Usually Rome expanded even when under bad emperors due to the fact that the praetorian guard were the ones which assassinated and placed emperors on the throne in the majority of cases and so wielded significant influence within the Empire. Because of this fact, the militarist and expansionist praetorian guard were able to expand the Empire.
@@togerboy5396 true but that doesnt necessarily mean the praetorian guard would sustain rome until the 1800s
@@drained_yayoEspecially when you consider that IRL they couldn't sustain Rome for anywhere near that length of time
Yeah mine as well, no way Roman Empire would last in that state until 1800s
@kaiserfranzjoseph9311 That's really cap my guy, first of all 2000 years? That number makes no sense even including the Eastern half, Rome was a republic until Augustus, at most this is 1500 years. Secondly, I'd say the opposite, most of them were pretty bad but the good ones were so good they single handedly saved the empire numerous times.
3:34
Byzantine Anatolia: "Thank you Sassanids, you freed us from the Caliphate!"
Sassanids: "Oh I wouldn't say freed, more like under new management..."
Lmao it fits
Honestly still better than being under the mohammedans lol
megamind reference
Interesting and well thought out but I have a few criticisms:
1. If The West didn’t fall, I seriously doubt the East would fall, there was to many ingrained advantages the the East had
2. I think you allow to have the west maintaining to much land, I could see a Redoubt forming around Italy, Tunisia, Libya, Dalmatia, Southern France and the islands
3. I can’t imagine the Arabs being able to take and hold the east with west Rome still existing, I could see a Justinian style reconquest after the disintegration of the eastern Roman Empire and attack when all three of the east are weak
But this is just my critique great video!!!!
It’s not inconceivable the eastern empire was nearly razed to the ground from Attila the Hun and the east lost much of its army when it tried to retake Roman Africa from the vandals. Yes the east definitely had some advantages but there were a few times that the west could’ve rebounded.
@@pocketman202it was the location. Anatolia and constantinople was just perfect location to hold a capital and heartland of the empire. It has the geography as advantage unlike the flat lands of Italy
@@Beyonder1987Italy is not flat it’s very mountainous
@@Beyonder1987plus I was able to do it in Attila total war lol
People seams to not realize growing division between East and West. East Rome basically stop speak Latin and basically become only Rome by name. As such increasingly ostracized Latin Provinces, would elect own Emperor in one time or another. Meanwhile Constantinople was facing extremely powerful Islamic conquest and being de facto self-isolated and passive. They would fall in one time or another. While in West Rome religion would be over time strong enough glue for them to launch own campaigns against Arabs. What is, what basically did happen. Dues Vult
I think you forgotten the fact that the majority of the grain in the Roman Empire came from Egypt. There will be many more large famines, as we’ve seen causes a lot of assassinations.
A lot of the grain came from North Africa in general not just Egypt. Tunisia was very fertile back then.
For the western romans their grain came from carthage
@@pocketman202not enough compared to Egypt to feed Rome and its entire Italian peninsula.
@@Beyonder1987actually yeah I think there was I mean I don’t know for a fact but North Africa was the bread basket of the empire. In fact the government subsided much of the grain industry in Africa.
The implementation of a version of the theme system in the West might make strides to combine agricultural output and civil defense but yeah there would probably be a gap. The push into Germany might be partially driven by the desire to reappropriate land and clear forests for farmland.
I find it hard to believe the Western Roman Empire would remain so stable for so long.
One would assume it would behave somewhat similarily to China, where it would colapse into huge civil wars every couple of centuries, and then sucessor states attempt to reunify it.
Actually we can say Western did survived w/ different form.it comes to HRE.and uh after the schism the eastern was more absorb into greek root.the real romans civilization and ideas only stay till today in western hemisphere.
Yeah which would of ultimately led to its demise just like the Kingdom of Frankia. The amount of invading tribes didn't stop with the early Germanic tribes. Slavs, Magyars, and other Turkic/Slavic tribes were coming into Europe. The only reason the Bulgarians were haunted was because of the Bzyantines but with them gone, Bulgaria realistically inherited Constantinople and Greece. The magyars would of had space to Seattle further west and push into modern day German lands. While Italy would be divided by Serbs to the north and Bulgars to the south.
@@Newyork-uk5xy Nah, east romes more roman
I've been looking for a good Western Roman Empire alternate history for a while, so thanks a lot!
My only real criticism is I think it's kind of silly that Rome would rebrand itself as Latinia.
Surely by this point everyone would be so thoroughly Romanized that they'd never give up the name, and would just go back to being the Roman Republic.
First of, Roman Citizen didn't replace local populations like in video game. While Latinized, they would still have own dialects of Latin and post-barbaric traditions. Rome would become more a symbol then actual entity, as there were objective reasons why city lost importance after Edict of Caracalla. As such they would most likely use name of strongest province, then switch to more Sacred version of Empire. Only to rebounce in game of great powers and finally probably unite by peaceful means. Like, you know. What it actually did happen.
@@TheRezro I disagree via my understanding that the Byzantine Empire still called themselves Roman a thousand years after they lost Rome, and I heard that the population still called themselves Roman for centuries EVEN after being conquered by the Ottomans.
Less than having a dialect of Latin, these were Greek speakers, who didn't have the city of Rome, and weren't even on the Italian Peninsula.
But most importantly, having this alternate history go from the Roman Empire to the Roman Republic activates my history autism.
@@basedstreamingatcozy-dot-t7126 I'm not talking here about Byzantine. Beside that they become culturally more Greek, actually proving the point.
But contrary to modern perception based on Anglosphere media (what was only marginally Roman), people in West Europe in fact also did recognize themselves as Romans (especially in Romania). Even if they also did identify themselves with local province. The same way as someone don't stop being American when he call himself a Californian. And that is exactly what happen in West Rome.
There was no Germanic conquest. I mean, there were few incidents (especially Longobards), but actually majority of Germans were allowed to enter Rome as form of alliance against Attila. And later they serve in Legions, gaining local influence. In fact it is why they were roaming so freely.
With Byzantine becoming more Greek and ignoring Roman citizenship of Latin speaking population. Empire fall apart. But it is not that people stop being Roman. In fact even when Byzantine fall they officially transfer title of Emperor to Spain. What at the time was strongest. And for reminder Otton III of HRE also was Byzantine royalty.
Notion of West being West Rome (because it always was) was not that weird in Medieval Times. Where most people did recognize some level of unity by Roman Christianity. It was somewhat ignored in age of Nationalism. But those influences never go away.
Actually, if the empire was toppled, most likely we will see the formation of the Republic of Romania. 😂
Historically, the Roman Empire did always refer to itself as the Roman Republic, even after it no longer functioned as one, similar to many modern-day authoritarian regimes that call themselves a "Republic". Even the Byzantine Empire continued to call itself Rome. It's highly unlikely that a continued Western Empire would change it's name.
If I were to have one critique of this video, it would be naming the republic Latinia instead of The Second Roman Republic
I doubt. It would be like the Eastern Roman Empire they would have a strong Roman identity
Yeah, the Roman Empire renaming itself Latinia doesn't sit well with me either.
fr
You have to take into consideration that the Arabs took advantage of Byzantium and Persia being weakened due to a recent war between them that resulted in a stalemate.
Oh nvm
yep if arabs arise they will not withstand a prime Sasanid empire because it will not have a 20 year war against byzantine empire
If the Arabs wanted to fight in one finger, it would have been enough for them and others. The evidence is that we have not seen that the East and the West have been victorious over the Arabs, but perhaps if you were knowledgeable in history, you would have remained silent.😅
I'm failing to understand how "nationalism" will be a problem for Rome when the borders have basically not expanded for a thousand years
I also don't understand how they would maintain slavery when centuries of little to no expansion makes capturing new slaves impractical at best. Since it's not the same brand of slavery from the Americas in our time, that will make a huge difference.
EDIT: It's also kinda funny that the Empire just becomes Alternate Spain almost.
Funny how Poland got pushed to parts where Lithuania was
It’s odd that the west fell first when you think about the geography of it; it’s nestled in the corner of Europe with relatively defensible borders. While the East, sandwiched by strong foes on all sides, persevered for much longer. The fall of the west seems due to sheer incompetence in leadership, more than the realities of external pressure.
Dude it was literally right next door to some of the most powerful and aggressively expansionist tribes in Germania who all attacked it when it was already weakened and decaying, of course it fell
While the east was much more stable economically and had access to lucrative trade routes that became inaccessible to the West
Neatling alt hist/alt future videos give me another reason to wake up in the morning
Hey this is gonna sound suspiciously specific but aren't you the guy who left comments on Wynncraft Musescore music by Xeoran?
I am also a Xeoran Wynncraft piano sheet music enjoyer. small world
@@jehooft8569 oh yeah I am
hi, nice to meet you
Honestly the East was too well positioned to just die like the Western Empire fell. The West honestly could have survived in a reduced form like the East later did. The Franks though would be a major rival for the west like how the Bulgarians were for the Eastern Empire.
The Sassanids even in otl while conquering parts of the East were severely overstretched. They couldn’t hold such lands for so long.
I agree. The West should have consolidated hard around Italy and Africa (Tunisia) and tried to focus on holding those provinces while letting the barbarians overrun the other provinces that were of lesser value. One the Barbarian waves begin to lessen, the Western Empire could have broken out and reconquered.
"In the midst of battle, when chaos reigns and fear grips the heart, remember this: the true battlefield lies within oneself. Conquer the doubts, the temptations of weakness, and the tumult of emotions. For it is not the external foe that defines victory, but the inner strength and resilience of the warrior's spirit." - Marcus Aurelius
Beautiful maps as always :-)
Outstanding! I loved your interesting, speculative alternate history.
Amazing Alternate History timeline video btw :)
The idea of the western part outright conquering stuff from the east only makes sense if you think the Western/Eastern Roman Empires were different states in competition with eachother, which is false.
The split was purely to help with the administration of the empire. Until the fall of the west, it was still just one Roman Empire, but with two different centers of administration...
I think this was sort of a callback to the real world events of the byzantines reconquering parts of Italy AFTER the west had already fallen. Could be wrong, in which case I agree with you
@@KingoftheWelsh Prettysure thats what he was going for. And the video had the remaining parts of the eastern empire actually becoming more of a junior partner rather then being conquered
This reads exactly like an alternate 769 AD start for Crusader Kings II !
I loved this, man. It was great. I’ve often thought about trying major alternate history scenarios like Rome surviving or Napoleon winning. But it’s always hard to figure out how the world would develop, since these things would change the world massively. You did a great job with this one and have earned a subscriber.😁👍
3:15 "has to face the Avar Khaganate" - *Proceeds to use a map that mostly showcases the extent of the First Bulgarian Empire from the late 9th and into the 10th century* I wheezed
There’d probably be no England, France, Spain, or Portugal. Considering that the collapse of the western portion of the empire allowed those countries to be established.
This must be the timeline majorian was never betrayed and aurelian wasn't assassinated
Dude, this is sooo underrated! I've never seen such a detailed video! (Also how did poland developed so far east? I don't think you mentioned it and I couldn't find a reason)
This Alt-History has been my curiosity since I heard about Rome. Thanks.
Reality left the chat
It is the whole point of the video
@@mr.archivityThe point of the video is that it's a hypothetical, like this would actually happen in real life if the west didnt fall. I personally think it would have survived until the 600s or 800s.
@@Potato436_ realistically speaking there are various points where the Roman Empire could have conquered a lot more territories. The hypothetical situation is simply a “what if”. The whole point is that it isn’t reality because a “what if” is a mental construct using real situations already happened. In the end it isn’t reality.
No shit Sherlock.
Well Majorian almost proved you wrong.But the empire wouldn’t survive long forgot too ad that
Much better scenario for 1800-1900
The idea that the sassanids lose to the arabs in this scenario is preposterous to me. You have an experienced army of veteran shock cavalery and horse archers with better gear, and greek fire on their side loose to opportunistic tribesmen they outnumber 2 to one? I don't think so. They might unify Arabia, but they wont take out the sassanian juggernaut on equal grounds.
They wouldn't even leave them to unite Arabia
Ive always thought about this idea and wondered... great video!
I’ve been waiting for this kind of scenario for quite a while
Really great video. I'am excited to see more.
Really neat alternate history!
I legitimately cannot see the caliphate conquering that much if the power controlling those regions was even remotely stable, which you imply the sassanids would be
Stop coping. They were stable enough even in reality.
I think the fact that most of the original colonial powers never rise in this universe is insane
As a Florensian, we are the true successor state of Rome.
It's important to mention that the Greeks identified as and considered themselves to be Roman at the time. Hellenic nationalism would only come centuries later as a means to gain independence from the Ottomans
I disagree with the slavery part of the video. By the late Roman empire slavery was already being faze out. And i don't see the possibility of a transatlantic slave trade. The Portuguese learned of the slave trade from the arabs but in this timeline they are weaker so that is unlikely to happen. Because there isn't an arab slave trade. That also significantly changes the history of africa.
curious and significant that the greatest empires in history (English, French, German, Portuguese, Spanish, etc.) were born in the Western Roman Empire
holy shit I've been trying to find a similar scenario for AGES, thank you!
babe wake up, neatling uploaded yet another GOATED video
Please do what if Venus was Habitable?
Loved your video. I would propose that the Mt. Lebanon area would be organized into rump state, as it was in our world, playing off the major powers against each other. Such a state would have the sea to the west. The Lebanese and Anti-Lebanese Mountains to the East, the environs of Antioch to the North and Mt. Hebron
I've a question. Would the Baltic lands really be conquered by Germanic and Slavic peoples in this timeline, considering even the Teutonic Order failed?
the fact that the Slavs were conquered by the Germans even though they received a lot from the Romans is unlikely, so in the real case the Slavs and the Baltic peoples would have survived in more or less the same place or even settled the western areas of Europe
I'd argue that slavery would have been outlawed far earlier due to Christianity. You might have had serfs and serfdom but slavery itself would have died out in the empire.
I would also argue that rome might have reverted back to a Republic. Or several republics ruled by a single emperor. Even towards the end of the empire in our timeline local consuls were still being elected so there was a strong Republican tradition
Neatling, only you know what will happen next, please continue with this story!
I've got a question can you make a scenario with what if the macedonian Empire survived
FInally some Centuries Spanning Alt-Hist, and with that goodness of Stats for the Alternate World, and With having Few Centuries of still centralized State would certainly Make Industrial Revolution come Faster, Either Way It was super Enjoyable so thank you for the Hard Work.
And Man Seeing Germany be so different Looking and Poland really is weird but i loved it none the less.
Good alternate history must come from factual possibilities. And we can't ask what if Roman Empire would not fall, it it actually never did. East Rome basically made it up, to cancel citizenship of Latin Population.
Fun fact: Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, French and Romanian are in fact dialects of Latin. Rome was not conquered by Germans, because those Germans were literally a Roman Citizens operating as auxiliaries to Legions.
@@TheRezro And i don't give a rat's ass about a Possible Alternate History i want some Good Alternate History, since if i wanted to watch some Possible History i would watch a documentary so stop bothering people that's don't care
@@KiraiKatsuji Good alternative history is based on reality. Otherwise you end as HoI4 player.
@@TheRezro Good Alternate History is an Alternate History that is Intresting as otherwise it's better to just read actual history since it has more depth
@@TheRezro And any Alternate "Realistic" History is same way fictional as any wacky alternate History since it's not what happened
Will there be videos where they will tell about the history on the map, and not about alternative history?
This was a lot of fun.
I will probably edit or mod a CK3 scenario just to play that.
Fallen Eagle, perhaps?
This Alternative history video actually makes sense to me, its so well made!
What if germany’s economy somehow grew to the same extent as japan’s?
It did tho, it surpassed it
@@Kaiser_Polaris I was talking about germany in 1990
Make italys grow too
@@hellboyhero7819Italy was never a unified country until the 19th century and its economy is completely dependant in the North
@@enderallgames8716 It was literally dividend back then. This would be possible only without communism.
Excellent alt hist!
This is a good video by virtue of Norway retaining its possessions in Bohuslan, Jamtland, the North Sea & the Kola peninsula
4:34 Milan became so prosperous that in the the 700s they have not one but TWO Duomos! Way before the completion of the actual one in the late XIX century. Thus creating the neogothic style 1000 years before our timeline
I would like to see a 'What if the Achaemenids Came Back' after the death of Alexander. The last living Achaemenid dynasty members was Amestris Achaemenid and her sons who were rulers out of the city of Heraclea Pontica.
I don't think there would've been an Abbasid Caliphate without the Umayyads having conquered Persia and parts of Central Asia as that was the base of support of the Abbasid revolution
Excellent vid
I love that this video actually creates an alternate timeline rather than just saying "I can't accurately predict this because it is so different" like thats the whole point of alternate history, its not supposed to be accurate or similar to today's timeline.
An interesting idea, but I feel you missed one major point: The Black Death. That would likely have shaken things up in the Empire.
Powers rise and fall, but Rome remain constant. I love this sentence
What if Japan wasn't an island and was instead part of Mainland Asia today? What if Wallacea was a Single Landmass??
This is pretty cool, and very well done. One question, though; how did the Islamic caliphates survive in Egypt and the Levant? In this scenario, the Byzantine systems had become corrupted and disappeared before they arrived, meaning they would lack that "head start" to form a stable empire.
Plus, the border in North Africa between the Fatimid and Roman Empire seem hard to defend, for either side. I think the odds of a heavily Christianized, and stable, Western Roman Empire, seeing another religion conquer the "holy land" (And, what they perceived, to be rightful Roman land), in addition to the regions being extremely rich, economically, and *not* hating them are very slim.
Now, would they win? That's another question (I'd argue yes, as in this scenario they're essentially just Egypt with some Arabian holdings). Either way, Rome would probably we *way* more active of a power in the Western Med.
Side note: How did the West reform to retain stability? My favorite method's always been a Senate-Elected successor, stronger constitution, and a loyal Officer Corps. (I would also bet that the printing press would be invented far earlier, as Senatorial campaigns require a lot of writing)
I agree, I think Western Rome would at least try to take Egypt. Another scenario is that Western Rome could have made the Muslims a vassal (similar to Ptolemaic Egypt) and defend them from Sassanids and Greeks.
I also think this isnt a crazy scenario, the East was often the first ones to get the brunt of the invasions, they just couldn't go far due to reforms that happened when it came to the fortified cities, and Constantinople of course. The West was just an easier target and so that's where people went. Not to mention the Huns(and goths) took the wealth out of the East, the smaller tribes only had one place to go.
surprisingly good, subscribed in the first couple minutes. Tbh I was expecting a trashy slideshow.
Whats the map u use?
What if Venus was habitable??
What if east germany absorbed west germany?
4:41
There wouldn't actually be an Abbasid Caliphate in this timeline. The Abbasid revolution that overthrew the Umayyads started in and spread from Khorasan, but if the Muslims fail to conquer Persian empire there wouldn't be an Abbasid revolution and a Persian population to support it. The Umayyads might still be overthrown for their racist taxation policies.
The Fatimids also came from North Western Africa, so no Fatimid Caliphate.
I also don't think the Seljuk Turks would exist, but the considering the influence Persian culture had in central Asia, another Turkic group might take the place of the Seljuks.
this video is a mess. Out of its time in every event he mentions. How is it possible to get such basic things wrong
great vid lets get a ck3 or eu4 mod now
Even a vic2 mod picking up where the video leaves off would be cool. I like the ck3 mod idea tho
What is pannonia in this universe? Avar? Slavic? Germanic?
Likely somewhat diverse, being home to several minority groups. But majority Germanic.
The Germanic people in this scenario live much further east. And the Kingdom of Pannonia would've been unified and established by the Gepids, or Kingdom of Gepidia. The Germanic people of Pannonia are however separate from the "Germans" to their north, as their geographic separation, as well as influence from other cultures, have caused them to diverge linguistically and culturally
So they're Germanic, but not German. Like how Swedes or the Dutch are Germanic, but not German.
Also one big critique, the eastern Roman Empire survived but went on a slow decline, yet the western Roman Empire never goes on this slow decline
What if both the west and east Roman empires didn't collapse?
Very cool, I had not thought about the changes caused by a stronger Sassanid and was not expecting you to go as far down the line as colonisation, a colonial Rome would be a very interesting idea.
yo!!! mate can you do what if the Angevin Empire survived with a united France having its natural borders and united British isles, as the Angevin Empire expands and conquered 1/3 of the world and became the largest and one of the greatest empires in world and history, like bigger than the British empire in our world
I feel if the west survived and prospered, they would’ve at least been much more aggressive with mapping out Africa. Maybe not going towards the new world, but definitely traveling the coast of Africa, trying to get to the Middle East, especially with a seeming lack of a trade state like Venice who mediated the trade of spices
Rome would NEVER grow so big. This is very unrealistic, Rome would NEVER ever have such competent emperor's who DISCOVERED THE AMERICA'S.
I personally feel things would be a bit different than what you described, though thats part of the wonders of Alt-History, everyone could have different views on outcomes. Like I don't really see The Western Roman Emprie staying that big for that long. I would imagine that the british isles would end up out of the empire and be more of a blend of celtic and scandinavian. Alongside more land would be lost around the Netherlands and Luxembourg. Also I feel with a version of enlightenment and revoloutionary thought there would be more breakaway states in Latinia.
That's kind of my feeling as well, though I might just be looking for a scenario with more parallels in direction with the historical ERE. I was thinking similarly that a collapse in the east might take some pressure away from the west, but I was imagining a scenario where northern Gaul would still be lost, along with Britain. Narbonensis and northern Italy becoming a sometimes contested frontier. I could see Egypt being retained/reconquered by the west at least for a time after the fall of the east.
Or the opposite. Without Charlemagne, the Western Rome could have had the Charlemagne-like expansion into Germany and taken the lands that would eventually encompass the HRE.
Hey. That was cool. I like your idea. Do more stuff.
Some questions and comments:
1. Is baltia just a swedish empire?
2. What happen to the baltic countries if polania took them over it?
3. Did persia convert to islam or no since they were not taken over by the arabs?
4. Did the turks convert to islam due to proximity to many islamic states or no since they were passing through Zoroastrian Persia?
5. I see anglo-saxons formed. Does that mean Ænglish is the language of later Germania? Or maybe Ænglish remains more like old Ænglish from our timeline. Or would it only remain in the state/kingdom of Anglia (1600s)? I'm seeing a dominance of north sea germanic languages here (Anglia, Saxonia etc). Would Ænglish be more influenced by old Norse in this timeline?
6. Is Prussia a slavic kingdom or after german kingdoms took it over?
7. Did the germanic countries and nordics remain germanic heathens since there was no Charlemagne conquest and maybe the germanic kingdoms didn't feel the need to convert to christanity since the western roman empire was (slave driven, lower technology, and maybe not admirable to copy)
8. Completely based af for Vinland surviving and later taking over most of Canada. As a Canadian I 100% approve this
9. If germanic heathenism survived would their be any reformations or organization of the faith? Like maybe a king with enough central power to gather the realms goði and make it an axial age religon
10. Is Pannonia also a germanic kingdom/empire like Austrian empire vs German Empire? Since it was made by Gepids, Franks, and Suebes?
11. Is Thracia a Bulgarian or Greek kingdom (1600s)?
12. Would Polania/Slavics and baltics remain slavic pagans or baltic pagans since there was no push of greek orthodoxy or threat of crusades from western/central European kingdoms?
13. Wow Greek kingdom/states getting huge this timeline (1700s)
14. Which germanic kingdom would unite germania or would it be an agreement between the states due to republicanism (1600-1700s)?
15. Do Scotia and Caledonia speak latin or romance language or Irish and Scottish Gaelic/Pictish?
16. Are the kingdoms in central america, successors of the mayan/azetc empires?
17. Is the kingdom in the Andies an Inca kingdom? For the amazon kingdoms would they be latinized or native american culture?
18. I see Scania/Slesvig-Holsten is still part of Denmark, I call this a win.
19. I see Japan and China went nuts on their empire. Tbh I can see Japan being able to hold the surrounding islands and mainland shorelines
Yours truly,
A CK3 fan who loves playing as Asatru Denmark/North Sea Empire
It's better the east that survived and its a stain on European history that they were too divided to help them in their last moments
Amazing in every way
Simply incredible, well done.
Very Nice video keep it up!👍
Perhaps feudalism would’ve arisen in this western Roman Empire as well. That’s the only way I could see Rome surviving into the 1000s.
U did a terrific job ❤️🙌🏻
We NEED a Vic 2 (3?) mod with this scenario.
Let's not forget for Crusader Kings and Europa Universalis.
The western Roman Empire still exists after a fashion. Are not its dioceses still governed out of its basilicas?
What if Confucius was never Born?
There was another ideology in that period called 墨家 (Mohism) comtemporary with Confucism founded by 墨瞿 (Mo Qu) , which was an egalitarianism and even extreme populism ideology. Mohism was considered as the source of the populism element in Chinese socalism/communism.
So many interesting things could happen.
One of the most interesting would be what happens to Russia, they adopted Orthodoxy in OTL because the Byzantines were the strongest regional power.
With that no longer the case we might see them adopting Zoroastrianism or perhaps Manichaeism.
With the survival of the Persian Empire it is unlikely for the Turks to adopt Islam, historically a lot of them did become Manichaean.
A world split between a Manichean Slavic speaking East and a Catholic Latin speaking West would be very interesting.
As to what causes the East to collapse, I think a successful Coptic Rebellion in Egypt alongside a Sassanian invasion and perhaps Visigoth and Jewish revolts while the East was under a weaker Roman Emperor could very well end the Eastern Roman Empire.
As for why the West survives, the Visigoths settling in the Eastern Empire could very easily end up lessening the stress towards the West
I seriously doubt the Western Empire would have the hegemony you predict though, I bet they still lose England and Germany to the Germanic invaders from Germany proper.
It seems wierd to me the Roman empire would still have soavery in the 1400s or 1600s
Great video! I would love it if you remake the what if eatern rome survived in this style and depth
In such scenario the problem is where to get cheap grain and labour from (if you do not control Egypt and Levant for example).
I understand that this is a alt-history scenario but it should be noted that “Hellene” was a long since dead ethnic group by this time and it only reemerged in our timeline in very specific circumstances where the greek independence movements wanted to curry sympathy from Western European powers 7:09
10:30 The roman empire was pretty close to industrialize, so idk why it happens so late here.
Never underestimate the ruling class doing everything in their power to stay relevant
Even if it's in the states long term interests to industrialise the patricians could not hold on to power without slavery
Maybe because the eastern Roman empire in our timeline never did?
Yeah, no way they would be technologically behind and not industrialize early. Their whole gist is incorporation and assimilation of foreign technologies for their own use. He just copies what happened to Eastern Roman Empire and then applied it to Western Roman Empire, which those two are not even close in comparison.
This looks better for Europe than actual history
I really appreciate this video for several reasons. It's very well-thought-out and focuses on the wider world instead of just Rome. However, two things I disagree with are:
1. Arab Expansion: I think you hit the nail on the head with Sassanian expansion, as the Sassanian always wanted to recreate the old Achaemenid Persian Empire, however if the east collapsed, it would not have led to the disastrous wars which would have led to the power vacuum which was the catalyst for Muslim expansion. Without the Byzantine-Sassanian wars, Islam would likely spread more gradually or would stay within Arabia altogether.
2. Early Renaissance: With a quicker collapse of the east, we would see Persia preserve Greek cities like Alexandria, and we would also see an exodus of Greeks into the Roman Empire. In our timeline, one of the causes of the Renaissance was the influx of Greek ideas into Italy after the fall of Constantinople, and with the likely preservation of classical works by the Sassanians, we might see a much more rapidly advancing civilization not just in Rome but in Western Eurasia altogether, which would have unforseen consequences on European imperialism, if imperialism were to still occur of course.
Overall, a great video, I just couldn't resist putting in my two cents!
One thing you got wrong. You got the fact of standing army. Commititense and the limitane system was that…
Are Gauls alive in this world, as well as all other Celts?
I really like this video but the AI imagery really undermines it, especially the image of Milan with completely inconsistent architecture.
The Western Roman Empire will really save Celtic culture from falling, I think maybe Gaulish have survived to our days, lr maybe even Celtiberian will be still with us or just held for a longer time, because Romans were a really good duo with Celts, and Celtic culture even got a normal written source from Romans.