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I am Italian. I cannot NOT think of Rome. I mean, we pick up VERY basic understanding of Latin (not much in class, but enough to get the gist of random inscriptions) and Roman numerals as children through sheer exposure to random Latin inscriptions we find everywhere and church clocks with Roman numerals, we think of Rome multiple times per day because we're guaranteed to stumble into something that reminds us of it every time we step out of our homes. And that's the guys who live into places built AFTER the fall of Rome, I live in a Roman city and we've got signs that explain what was done in that street back in Roman time, a small archeological museum dedicated entirely to Roman artifacts found here, and even a small tract of a Roman road preserved under a Fascist-era building in the city center...
Im Persian and I always talk about Persia, but people in the west usually either talk about the propaganda of the western nations or %2 of our awesome Warrior nation.😂😂
Regarding minerals: The Romans would also quickly have discovered the extremely rich veins of gold, silver, copper and zinc ore in the Hartz mountains.
What? That is literally the oposite. A sorther frontier lowers the manpower requirements. The concentrated defense can be applied in a much more effecive way. We are talking of a about 1/5 or 1/4 less of frontier. Imagine how mcuh less manpower that would be@@thomastakesatollforthedark2231
That was Augustus' plan (Frontier at the Elbe + Danube, rather than Rhine + Danube). Which is also kind of why he wanted to conquer Germania in the first place.
Honestly, this kind of far-back historical change video is my favorite part of alternate history, and I'm always impressed by how well-done your channel's scenarios are! Loved it and would really like to see a sequel.
Because unfortunately they are "boring" and unavoidable without modern medicine. More or less the same reason why throwing stones is less likely to be depicted when talking about "non modern" warfare.
For the next era, we also need to consider the Justinian Plague of the 6th century. Then it struck ALL the civilized European territories of Rome, destroying from 1/3 to 2/3 of the population. The Balkans became depopulated, so that the Slavs eventually settled in the empty space. Germany, as an uncivilized territory, became a "shield" from the settlement of the Slavs further west than the Elbe. Maybe in this alternative scenario, the Western Slavs will populate the deserted territories of Lower Germany. And Upper Germany (Bavaria), like Dacia in the Balkans, being in the mountains, will retain its identity. (And then in the 9th century, an Gallic analogue of Charlemagne will seize these lands just beyond the Rhine in the name of uniting the Empire... Romans, Germans, Gauls and also Slavs. Historically there will be the same mess as in the Balkans. Well, at least there will be one religion.)
Please do a follow up episode for this! This was great stuff. You covered a lot more important details about this topic than most others, especially regarding resources and trade routes; reasons the Roman’s would likely have stayed and developed Germania. Other channels hardly touch on any of that, or not at all, describing Germania simply as useless forests. I’d love to see where you think the history might branch out from where you left off with potentially no third century crisis.
I would love a second video but the problem is that he said it at the end of the video, assuming there is no 3rd century crisis basically everything changes. Would Attila/leader of a great migration be able to endanger the Romans or would they be able to defend themselves decently until he dies or gets tired and goes somewhere else? - If Attila manages to invade the empire and does not move capital would the eastern or western section fall? In case the eastern part falls I see it possible that the western part survives especially because they would only have to defend the eastern flank since the Mediterranean and the Atlantic defend them. - If Attila does not manage to invade the empire or does so and it survives could Rome continue like the Persian/Chinese empires in which they are able to perpetuate themselves/stagnate? I don't see the empire growing beyond this point, in Scandinavia there is literally nothing that they don't already have, they already have an almost perfect defense with the rivers The problem is that there are so many changed facts and we are so far from the initial point that this would basically be very strong speculation. My edgy take would be to say that the eastern part falls and the western part is severely damaged and cannot retake the eastern part, a new religion like Islam appears and conquers Anatolia + Balkans and creates a rivalry with Western Rome.
@@segiraldovi On the other hand, he often describes his alternate timelines as "this is just one of the many possible ways history could have unfolded" or some such. It doesn't have to be "perfect" or even the most likely scenario imaginable in order to be interesting. This man made some very satisfying and enlightening videos that went wild with the scenarios, like an intact Doggerland leading to western Europeans horse nomads or a world where Rome never had the chance to expand at all. And he wrote a whole book about an alternate future 1000 years after Nazi Germany won WW2! Expanding on what would happen after Rome conquered Germany might be easier in comparison. Could even explore several scenarios. I'll happily devour hours of content based on this.
Rome probably wouldn't have conquered Britain if they had conquered Germany. A large reason behind Claudius' invasion was likely the uncertainty following Teutonberg. He might've campaigned further into Germany instead, mirroring Tiberius to assert his control. Rome probably maintains friendly relations with some of the southern Briton tribes and maybe intervenes occasionally, but many of the economic and political reasons behind that invasion are gone.
@@goroakechi6126Yes the Christian expansion into europe is kind of an inevitable when you consider that the religion actively encourages conversion and as a religion is far more appealing than most pagan religions were (seeing as more often than not pagan religions were designed to explain natural phenomena and thus led to world that was cruel and dangerous vs Christianity's preaching of the importance of humans.)
I'd imagine they'd push for Britainnia after they found out there were gold mines there, they were what made the isles so important to the romans and also why development of the isles ceased when they were exhausted of all the gold the romans had the technology to extract
@@notthefbi7015 That's hard to say. Christians were still a minority when the emperors decided to turn Christianity into the state religion. It was also largely an urban phenomenon to which the countryside with its much more traditional social structures remained quite resistant, especially in the western half of the empire.
This whole concept is crazy inspiring. Imagining just how different Europe would be in the 1500s of this alternate universe makes me wanna stop what I’m doing and write a long epic. I hope you continue with this concept!
9:45 actually not quite the same forest. The Statue is located in Detmold in the south of the Teutoburg forest, which they thought at the time was where the battle took place. But archeological findings since then placed the actual place of battle at Kalkriese near Osnabrück, roughly 75 kilometers to the northwest.
As a long time viewer of your channel for 10 years+ , this video is one of your very best. The critical importance of Roman medicine for Roman Power is rarely ever mentioned. I have new found respect for Roman Medicine, Modern Medicine, and your channel after watching this video. Thankyou very much for your very excellent content. Looking forward to the next ten years of Alternate History Hub.
Now this is the old school Alternate History Hub video I've been waiting for! For your next one, you should do what would have happened had Alexander successfully invaded/conquered India as he had desired, before his ego was checked by his Army's internal rebellion.
Couple of errors on real history: the statue to Arminius is NOT in the forest where the battle happened. No one really knew where the battle had been in the 19th century... iirc, they renamed a forest with a similar'ish name or found one that just so happened to fit the name. In the years since, some more serious history / archaeology was done and the real (very likely) site to the battle was indeed found: it's near Kalkriese in north-western Germany - quite far from the statue. Might also be noteworthy that the whole "these lands are just a bunch of forests, nothing of value, few barbaric people" is what we find in roman sources. As in all interactions with the romans and non-literary people, we only got their word: Rome tended to agrandize the people they defeated after the fact, "look what a mighty enemy we vanquished!" and talk smack of those they couldnt defeat "we didnt leave cuz we lost, we left cuz the land isnt worth shit to us!". So take the sources that speak of the value of germanic lands with heaps of salt. Archaeological evidence suggests that for most of roman-german history after Teutoburg, the border was porous to say the least - regular trade in the border regions existed. The Romans got slaves, amber, furs and other goods in exchange for steel good, sometimes coin, probably different foods (hard to trace today). We found several roman swords in Germania and quite a few coins all the way up to Denmark, usually worn as decoration and status symbols (these were people that didnt use currency).
@@alanpennie8013 It's been a while since I read about the studies in uni but without being able to provide proper dates, I can say they werent used by people that used coins for their intended use: they poked holes into them and wore them as necklaces. The way they were found (burials) and modified suggests they were used as status symbols: show your power by associating with the powerful dude who's head is on the coin and similar shenanigans.
@@alanpennie8013 It's possible they saw religious significance, but mostly it's suspected they saw the association with very tangibly powerful forces - the Romans wouldve seemed unnaturally powerful. Also fun: findings are usually many coins on a string (obviously not maintained but the positions in the sites suggest they were).
I don't think it's really that disturbing. For all we know, Germany as a country would be in a much, much better economic spot if they were conquered by the Romans and had roots in Roman institutions, like Britain did. Germany would've probably unified a LOT sooner than in our timeline. Maybe Rome wouldn't have been in Germania long enough for German to be latinized, who knows.
@@moritamikamikara3879 Because it feels more anachronistic to have them fighting together well before what's considered the peak of the IRL Viking era, which many people find more interesting.
I have waited ever since the fall of Rome for Cody to make a video on this topic. It's a coincidence I wanted to suggest it today. Thanks Cody for making my dreams come true
Bro, you're forgetting about the Slavs and the powerful eastern German tribes like the Goths and Vandals. No matter how far out Rome expands, they're still going to be stuck with belligerent, warlike people on their borders. If not the Germans then the Slavs, if not the Slavs, than Finno Ugric peoples, if not them then steppe peoples.
The important point however is with the two rivers on their border, they’d need less infrastructure and manpower to hold off any belligerents. Which means more money not being spent on defense AND the manpower shortage from the plague wouldn’t be as critical to the frontier. It would still be a time of pain but he is right there’s this glimmer of hope for a non collapsing Rome in this geopolitical scenario
@Ryanfinder226 Rome did have two rivers on it's borders, the Rhine and the Danube. In fact, the distance between the Elbe and Danube rivers is greater than that of the Rhine and Danube rivers. Rome still got Invaded and beat up by enemies crossing those rivers, after the Antonine plague during the crisis of the third century, which, may have been slightly better for Rome due to an extra population in Germany, but the Germans would be affected by the plague as badly as everyone else would, weakening the legions and giving the new barbarians at the gate, the East Germanic Peoples and the Slavs, opportunity to cross the narrower Elbe River, the Danube river and attack Roman lands.
Yeah, Rome being closer to Slavs means more iron tools for early Slavs which means more effective deforestetion of Eastern Europe primal forests, which means population boom. Slavic migrations between 450-750 were biggest in whole Europe
@@kosa9662 population isn’t the issue. With the rivers crossings will have to concentrated at crossing points, Rome can fortify these places and deal with them. There’s a difference between all of the Germans and the Slavs and the nomads attacking and just the Slavs and nomads. It’s less to deal with.
The alternate history take on Rome's challenges in Germania is both ambitious and thought-provoking. Loved the parallels drawn with modern struggles in discussing history online.
Super cool ideas and alternate history potential!! Please return to this some day!!! If Rome holds control of Germania & Britain longer the cultural impacts and potential for hypothetical romance languages is very interesting. Perhaps then it is Slavic rather than Germanic invasions that cause the collapse of Rome. Maybe the Slavs start with the Balkans and topple Eastern Rome first, leaving Western Rome
The Huns would still come, pushing the slaves and Goths and Vandals and such into the west and the balkans, not Syria. Also, this may make for a lager presence of Baltic peoples, Finno-Ugric peoples, Iranian peoples(think, Alans, Sarmatians) and even the more Asian descendants of the Huns and Pannonian Avars in Europe.
Germany winning WW1 is one of the most realistic alternate history scenarios you could imagine. There are around 1000 little things that all went in favor of the entente and one single piece changing would/could have tipped the scale in favor of Germany. Examples: - Schlieffen Plan carried out as intended. In reality, during the first battle on the Marne (almost in eyesight of Paris) a gap opened in the German lines and they had to slightly retreat after pretty much winning everything up until this point. The original plan called for more divisions on the Western front and less on the eastern front. With those reserves, the gap is filled and they continue marching. - 12th battle of Isonzo: What started off as a small relief offense by third grade Austrian troops supported by some German Stormtroops, would have completely kicked Italy out of the war, closing a front for the Central Powers, opening another one for the French. - T.E. Lawrence against all odds making friends with the Arabs and making them valuable assets (while his government betrayed his friends). Up to this point, the British did not much but lose in that region - Unrestricted submarine warefare (twice) plus Zimmermann Telegram. Both did nothing to help Germany or harm the Entente, but brought the U.S. into the war. The hope for America was everything that kept France from falling apart at that stage. - Constantine I (of Greece) winning instead of losing the power struggle. No additional point of attack for the entente - Austria-Hungary not accidentally marching into a Serbian army without a plan to do so. Serbia could have been out of the war within a few months, completely closing the southern front and so on and so forth. Those may be 10% of the single occurrences that went against the central powers.
Yeah unlike WW2, Germany actually had a legitimate playing field. They were THE economic and military power house of Europe. There are so many ways that Germany sees a victory especially early in the war. It's a little frustrating to hear people say that Germany stood no chance in WW1, when there were so many moments in which it could've played out a different way that people seem to overlook.
@@dishrame4946 The "Germany had no chance in WW1" is mostly parroted by Anglo propagandists, ironically this paints Germany as even more capable as they practically solo'd France the UK and Russia Hell even for VERDUN most of that battle was supplied by a single road, a single road where during the total areal supremacy the Germans had nobody thought to bomb the supply trucks, the minute difference of a few pilots not deciding to strafe these trucks slowed the war down tremendously as even a single truck breaking down would've caused a massive congestion and supply issues (being a mud ridden hellhole) So many tiny moments where everything could've changed, meanwhile in reality almost everything that could go wrong went wrong for the Germans (in both wars funnily enough, they just occasionally lucked out with the enemy capturing their plans and not believing them)
Both the WWs might not have even happened. With France and Germany having both been "civilized" by Rome and adopting similar cultures, the rivalry across the Rhine likely would not have existed.
the Big thing that the Entente had and the Central Powers didn't was a navy. the German Navy couldn't break the blockade of the Royal Navy (and the Austo-Hungarians didn't even try) and that allowed them to blockade and strangle the life out of the central powers.
I think the most important reason to push the border to the Elbe would be to shorten the overall frontier. Of course, that also means that the Oder is better. And the Vistula is even better. And yes, please explore this more!
You could definitely see a logic playing out where they first stabilize the area up the Elbe. Then a successor Emperor decides that to gain fame for themselves they'll redo it all under the same logic of shorter borders and push up to the Elbe. And then repeat for someone later eventually taking everything up to the Vistula. With the border being basically the Vistula, Carpathian Mountains, Danube river in the end. Which should really be a highly defensible frontier. if you could but manage to conquer and integrate all those areas. Beyond that point the border shortening logic breaks down really and all you see if the basically ever expanding hard to defend plains areas beyond. Still, that would gain you an extra thousand kilometers worth of ultimately fertile areas with a lot of trees in the short and medium term to use up as well. That much extra buffer area that doesn't really add to any added communication time would make it very hard to defeat Rome with attacks from the plains. If it could have actually happened to that extent though... I don't know, but one can certainly wonder. And one can wonder what would have become of Rome in such a timeline as well, because nothing lasts forever. Be it internal or external, something would eventually have broken it up one imagines.
@ Nah. Look at how miserable the Russian borders are throughout history. For what? Marginal land that is only barely useful in the industrial era. No, much better to have your border roughly along the narrowest point between the Baltic and Black Seas. Then, have a few allied states on the steppe to trade with for horses and grain. No long term commitments or obligations. No need for them: all of continental Europe and the Mediterranean basin is enough to be a global hyperpower, if Rome can keep its act together through the centuries.
@@Quickshot0 Beyond the Vistua you tend to meet the old Russia-is-really-fucking-big-problem that brought down empires. And that with successively lower value the further you go. Even pushing beyond the Oder at that time is questionable. Population just got sparcer and sparcer.
It was the Prussians who really pushed the Germanic identity and rejected Rome (HRE Rome), many other Germans (Austrians) still had a dual identity as German Romans.
@@joesmoe6454 Facts, distancing themselves from the Vatican's influence was the main reason for this though, as well as the clear advantages of ethno-nationalism as a unifying force against outside influence.
Its unbelievable that the Antonine Plague is underrated as hell, while the Black Death was tragic and scary - the Antonine Plague basically crippled the only semblance of a civilization in Europe. At least in the Black Death there were already established nation-states but the Antonine Plague? There was only Rome. Its like that one time China experienced their great plague in 1633 that killed off 90% of the population in the coastal regions and Beijing which directly led to the collapse of the Ming Dynasty - and the rise of the Manchus and the Qing Dynasty.
new video idea: "What if there were no plagues?" just kidding no I'm for real intruiged by how knowledged the roman medicine was. Sad to see them wiped out by just a plague in that sence. Nah the real new video idea is: "What if the romans knew about bacterial illnesses 'n' plagues and how to treat those?" I think we would talk about eternal rome here, bc like you said the main factor why the most pre-19-century nations fell was bc of plagues lol
I don"t think that Plagues were the main reason for the fall of the Roman empire though. The great plague of the 14th century killed similar percentages, but except Serbia and the Byzantine Empire no empire collapsed in the decades following it. I think the main reason for the fall of Rome was the unsustainability of slave economy.
25:00 The Antonian Plague basically replaced the former Latifundium with the lease colony, large swats of land leased out to colonists working on their own, but paying of their lease to the land lords. It paved the way to the feudal system of the Middle Ages.
What if Brazil was a Superpower? What if Mutapa survived and became an industrialized african great power? What if the Kingdom of Madagascar still existed? What if the Konbaung Empire survived and modernized? What if the Qing Dynasty modernized and industrialized?*
Make more alternate history scenarios, Mr Franklin, it could be one of those: - What if the Huns conquered Constantinople - What if the Byzantines discovered America - What if Alexander the Great's Empire conquered the Indian subcontinent and eventually the Indonesian archipelago - What if Saudi Arabia never existed - What if Srivijaya discovered Australia - What if the Mongols conquered Rome - What if Aurangzeb never came to power - What if the Romans conquered Scotland - What if the industrial revolution began during the Viking Era
One thing could (theoretically) still undo this: The Year of the Four Emperors. Assuming the succession still goes the same, Nero rules, and thus annoys everyone. The Rhine Legions were one of the most important forces to rebel against Nero, and Vitellus gains command of the Rhine(or in this case elbe) legions to join the fray, defeating another challenger and gaining the throne. But this massively stripped germania of its defences in the meantime, and Vitellus then had to face Vespasian coming from the east with his own Legions, losing against them. With all this in mind, i think it is possible that with the Romans temporarily stripping the area of most of its troops, the still relatively recently conquered Germania rebels. Vespasian, taking charge of things, then has to deal with two revolts with both Germania and Judea, and doesnt have the resources for both. Especially since the Elbe legions were just fighting against him and thus not the most trusted soldiers. Maybe this doesnt change things, maybe the revolt fails because its too disorganized or Vespasian/Titus still have time to campaign and reconquer the area, but i still think it could be a factor. Maybe the region isnt retaken until Trajan, and by then is dogged enough in its defiance that Hadrian decides to abandon it. Alternate History opens up so many possibilities. The best thing about the conquered Germany timeline is no Frankish migration, and therefore no France. Hooray.
IIRC, this was Augustus's plan; he correctly assessed that the Elbe and Danube would be the best possible defensive positions. Teutoberg would change that viewpoint. No Teutoberg (or at least Tiberius dying during Germanicus's reign so he could become Emperor with one objective on his mind: finishing what he started.
Love the idea of this alt history, just the smallest difference can roll into a cascade of different alternatives which make up for an amazing video, and hell yeah I want a part 2!
4:36 and he shows normal map with the border on the Rhine ... The romans during that period controled up to the Elbe river Also Britania wasnt part of the Empire yet Also Tiberius wasnt yet Emperor during any of his campaigns ( Augustus was still around ) When he was an Emperor he didnt leave Italy even once
One of those "what if ethiopia industrialised" scenarios It'd lead to a very interesting cultural shift if the conversions managed to stick, but doing so would be in spite of foreign intervention. Despite the Americans being all for it, everyone else saw the Taiping as basically just a westwashed anticolonial rebellion, which today we marvel over but back then was seen as above all else, bad for business.
You could try a theory on the Manhattan project, 3 entered my mind this week: 1. What if the project was delayed for whatever reason? 2. What if they listened to Teller and built a Hydrogen bomb instead? 3. What if Germany didn't surrender as early and they used the bombs on Germany instead?
Considering spoilery events in the lore the character's name is probably a reference to the Germanic leader yes. (As well as the Armenian Gc photographer, a German soldier named Armin)
This channel makes my life easier obviously like not in any physical way but I love history and I especially love when you talk about alternate history I find you very interesting and I like when you get a little out there with it like this one.! This channel has been one of my favorites for years thank you so much for doing all the work that you do
The modern state of Saxony has NOTHING to do with the Saxon tribe. The saxon tribe lived in the state of LOWER SAXONY. Todays Saxony only became the name after Barbarossa (Staufer) took the dutchy from Henry the Lion (Welfe).
Need to defend Varus: he followed the standard procedure and indications from a source he had no reason to not trust, even Caesar would have bought it (and, being Caesar, likely found a way to break through the ambush, but that's Caesar).
I really dont think that Ceaser could have gotten out. From the few sources we have, it seems the legion was attacked from all side all at once while marching. There were no formations, many men probably would've stowed wepons , armor, and ammunition for slings, bows, and the like. The Legions were also followed by lots of civilian camp followers who are not prepared for a battle. It's very likely that Arminus would've know that without officers and the signle men, ranks couldn't be formed and very likely had his men kill them first. So, no officers, unprepared men, loose ranks, and civilian panic. This would've been utter chaos and there is probably no way in hell that anyone could've gotten out of that. The biggest strength of the Roman Military was cohesion and tactics. With such chaos tactics are thown out the windo.
@@codymoon7552 I know it's extremely unlikely. But after the miracle at Alesia, where Caesar had to face two enemy armies, each of which outnumbered his and that were attacking at the same time while taking advantage of the piece of terrain where the Romans couldn't make the field fortifications intended precisely to deal with this kind of surprises and STILL CRUSHED THEM ONE AT A TIME, one can expect almost anything from him.
@lordMartiya At Alesia, Ceaser had well groomed, high moraled, well prepared men standing in formation. He would have had none of those things in the woods.
@codymoon7552 At Teutoburg, Varus had all of that except the formations. And Caesar, being Caesar and having already been burned due Vercingerorix having been a close friend, would have suspected what was going to happen the moment Arminius disappeared. That's the difference between Caesar and Varus, Caesar could see the ambush coming before it could be sprung. And if Varus' men could exact a heavy toll in the situation they found themselves in, Caesar could find a way out.
@@lordMartiya that was literally impossible. The ambush that Arminius organized was almost perfect. The Romans were marching in a narrow terrain surrounded by trees and formeling a column kilometers long. The germanic tribes attacked the back of the column so they could exploit numerical superiority and no backup from the front could arrive in time. For three days they employed the hit and run tactic until the three legions were decimated. The only thing that we can agree on is that probably a capable man like Caesar wouldn't have fallen in such a trap. When Varus saw the smoke coming from the other side of the forest he trusted Arminius and marched through the forest. Caesar wouldn't have been so s*tupid to pass through the forest. Anyways, this Teutoburg ambush was ignored by historians until the 19th century, when Germans were looking for an historical episode to justify their union and create a sense of nationality (same narrative was adopted by the nazis in early 20th century). From that day on, the Teutoburg distaster has been hyped so much that people believe that it was the main cause of the Romans withdrawal from Germany. In my opinion this episode is completely overrated, just a couple of years later, germanicus defeated Arminius multiple times, and even later, romans crossed the Rhine several times to launch punitive campaigns (like Maximinus Trax or constantine did), and every time they kicked a huge amount of germanic a*sses. The reality was much more complex than that, but the conquest or the superiority in battle was never a problem for the romans. The main reason for the missed conquest of Germania was mainly in the non centralized structure of the germanic tribes that were anything but mot unified group of people ( like the 19th and early 20th centuries german propaganda wanted us to believe). The problem is that most of the people today still believe in this false propaganda.
I would like to add a few things 1) Good portion of Germanic tribes that brought down Rome like Goths, Vandals and Jutes still are outside of Roman borders and can cause problems. They might even be more advanced as they have better contact with Rome. And Sassanids still are pain in the ass. 2) I don’t see Roman internal problems being any better. Therefore I could still see Northern Balkans Italy, Southern Gaul, Hispania and North Africa being overrun in the fifth century. However I don’t think the much more powerful presence in Northwestern Europe would be overrun (The Germans that did it are integrated), at most loosing Britannia to some proto Vikings. Thus a second powerful Roman successor state would exist in area similar to the Frankish kingdom Edit: Also I would see during the 6th century this Northwestern Roman Empire being involved in reconquest with Justian (they would take North Italy, Rest of Gaul and Hispania) Due to them helping Justinian the eastern Rome would be less exhausted and not lose to Arabs
I think it would be better to take the resource rich land of Bohemia that was mentioned directly and move up to the oder river or even the vistula and connect them to the slovakian mountains and rivers further north like the dniester which would integrate the tribes mentioned and give rome a good defense in depth strategy since not really having lines to fall back on probably was the most of what caused the wests downfall
Yeah I agree with this a lot. I noticed this video had a glaring lack of Goths and other Eastern Germanic tribes. I still think the Huns would dislodge and “shotgun” those tribes westwards, though with a better defended border and more space in between, it’s possible that more of Rome could’ve gone unpartitioned by Germanic tribes.
@@meanleanbean1628It would have still be partitioned, as the infighting for the imperial throne would have still destabilized the empire to it's point of collapse.
@@Finn_the_Cat My point still stands, internal problems and distractions with Sasanids for Constantinopol and proto-Vikings for Aachen or Munich combined would allow the Huns and their alied tribes to smash into the Balkans, Italy, Hispania and Afrika.
the successor state to Western Rome might also be more cohesive & unified than the Frankish kingdoms later, which in our timeline, was prone to split up (divided amongst Charlemagne's 3 grandsons) imagine what would have been France, Germany & Italy in our timeline, became instead a massive bloc of Gauls, Franks & Romans
Honestly, Cody, I find myself really interested in seeing how far we can take this scenario into the future, if you think it can be done. Awesome vid tho
0:37 I’m disappointed in you Cody that you purposely didn’t include the big bird video on this tier list. I’d have to place it under. “Plausable” Also you spelled Plausible wrong….
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Bruh
State anthems 2 when? I want your opinion on Ohio’s.
Hello, I know this is a long shot, but is there anyway I could contact someone about purchasing the most recent plushie drop? I know the window to purchase one closed, but my boyfriend collects them and has gotten every single one up until this point. He was very disappointed when he missed the window to purchase the most recent one. I wanted to know if there was anyway I could purchase one for him, even if it meant paying more than normal. Thank you for considering.
Just get yo ass on nebula pls not paying for more subscriptions
do remake of americas never colonized 5th reply
“I never stop thinking about Rome.” Trust me, the Ottomans and Russia never stopped thinking about Rome.
No one stops thinking about Rome
@ all thoughts lead to Rome
I am Italian. I cannot NOT think of Rome. I mean, we pick up VERY basic understanding of Latin (not much in class, but enough to get the gist of random inscriptions) and Roman numerals as children through sheer exposure to random Latin inscriptions we find everywhere and church clocks with Roman numerals, we think of Rome multiple times per day because we're guaranteed to stumble into something that reminds us of it every time we step out of our homes.
And that's the guys who live into places built AFTER the fall of Rome, I live in a Roman city and we've got signs that explain what was done in that street back in Roman time, a small archeological museum dedicated entirely to Roman artifacts found here, and even a small tract of a Roman road preserved under a Fascist-era building in the city center...
Im Persian and I always talk about Persia, but people in the west usually either talk about the propaganda of the western nations or %2 of our awesome Warrior nation.😂😂
@@Raccoon.City.Police.DepartmentPersia is budget Rome
Regarding minerals: The Romans would also quickly have discovered the extremely rich veins of gold, silver, copper and zinc ore in the Hartz mountains.
Another advantage of pacifying Germania is ironically a *shorter* frontier that requires less manpower to defend.
And possibly more people to defend it
What? That is literally the oposite. A sorther frontier lowers the manpower requirements. The concentrated defense can be applied in a much more effecive way. We are talking of a about 1/5 or 1/4 less of frontier. Imagine how mcuh less manpower that would be@@thomastakesatollforthedark2231
That was Augustus' plan (Frontier at the Elbe + Danube, rather than Rhine + Danube). Which is also kind of why he wanted to conquer Germania in the first place.
@@thomastakesatollforthedark2231 And don't forget that the frontier would *also* be farther away from major population centers in Italy and Gaul
@@SamForShort In 200 years and the economic importance we could have big centers in Germany too
Honestly, this kind of far-back historical change video is my favorite part of alternate history, and I'm always impressed by how well-done your channel's scenarios are! Loved it and would really like to see a sequel.
Also well written and fun to listen to, even when they go a bit crazy. Presentation counts for a lot!
Plagues are often the nost overlooked events in history good to see the antonian Plague get covered
Because unfortunately they are "boring" and unavoidable without modern medicine.
More or less the same reason why throwing stones is less likely to be depicted when talking about "non modern" warfare.
@@nieznajomy4398 man, the sling really is underrated in historical media coverage
For the next era, we also need to consider the Justinian Plague of the 6th century. Then it struck ALL the civilized European territories of Rome, destroying from 1/3 to 2/3 of the population.
The Balkans became depopulated, so that the Slavs eventually settled in the empty space. Germany, as an uncivilized territory, became a "shield" from the settlement of the Slavs further west than the Elbe.
Maybe in this alternative scenario, the Western Slavs will populate the deserted territories of Lower Germany. And Upper Germany (Bavaria), like Dacia in the Balkans, being in the mountains, will retain its identity.
(And then in the 9th century, an Gallic analogue of Charlemagne will seize these lands just beyond the Rhine in the name of uniting the Empire...
Romans, Germans, Gauls and also Slavs. Historically there will be the same mess as in the Balkans. Well, at least there will be one religion.)
@@tranquoccuong890-its-orge not even the sling, just old fashioned throwing rocks by hand.
The Crisis of The Third Century could be rechristened *The Years of The Cyprianic Plague*.
Please do a follow up episode for this! This was great stuff. You covered a lot more important details about this topic than most others, especially regarding resources and trade routes; reasons the Roman’s would likely have stayed and developed Germania. Other channels hardly touch on any of that, or not at all, describing Germania simply as useless forests. I’d love to see where you think the history might branch out from where you left off with potentially no third century crisis.
Pls make PART TWO.
I second this motion.
I would love a second video but the problem is that he said it at the end of the video, assuming there is no 3rd century crisis basically everything changes. Would Attila/leader of a great migration be able to endanger the Romans or would they be able to defend themselves decently until he dies or gets tired and goes somewhere else?
- If Attila manages to invade the empire and does not move capital would the eastern or western section fall? In case the eastern part falls I see it possible that the western part survives especially because they would only have to defend the eastern flank since the Mediterranean and the Atlantic defend them.
- If Attila does not manage to invade the empire or does so and it survives could Rome continue like the Persian/Chinese empires in which they are able to perpetuate themselves/stagnate? I don't see the empire growing beyond this point, in Scandinavia there is literally nothing that they don't already have, they already have an almost perfect defense with the rivers
The problem is that there are so many changed facts and we are so far from the initial point that this would basically be very strong speculation. My edgy take would be to say that the eastern part falls and the western part is severely damaged and cannot retake the eastern part, a new religion like Islam appears and conquers Anatolia + Balkans and creates a rivalry with Western Rome.
@@segiraldovi On the other hand, he often describes his alternate timelines as "this is just one of the many possible ways history could have unfolded" or some such. It doesn't have to be "perfect" or even the most likely scenario imaginable in order to be interesting. This man made some very satisfying and enlightening videos that went wild with the scenarios, like an intact Doggerland leading to western Europeans horse nomads or a world where Rome never had the chance to expand at all. And he wrote a whole book about an alternate future 1000 years after Nazi Germany won WW2! Expanding on what would happen after Rome conquered Germany might be easier in comparison. Could even explore several scenarios. I'll happily devour hours of content based on this.
@@wolfheartdarnell324 I third this
@@segiraldovi then let him pick a timeline to go down, this is entertaining, we need more of this alternate universe fantasy.
12:14 Hearing the iconic voice of Dan from the old Extra History videos brought a tear to my eye. Thank you Cody
Fr same
Fr fr
Rome probably wouldn't have conquered Britain if they had conquered Germany. A large reason behind Claudius' invasion was likely the uncertainty following Teutonberg. He might've campaigned further into Germany instead, mirroring Tiberius to assert his control. Rome probably maintains friendly relations with some of the southern Briton tribes and maybe intervenes occasionally, but many of the economic and political reasons behind that invasion are gone.
This actually raises another question, would Christianity be as expansionistic as it was in our timeline?
@@goroakechi6126Yes the Christian expansion into europe is kind of an inevitable when you consider that the religion actively encourages conversion and as a religion is far more appealing than most pagan religions were (seeing as more often than not pagan religions were designed to explain natural phenomena and thus led to world that was cruel and dangerous vs Christianity's preaching of the importance of humans.)
I'd imagine they'd push for Britainnia after they found out there were gold mines there, they were what made the isles so important to the romans and also why development of the isles ceased when they were exhausted of all the gold the romans had the technology to extract
@@notthefbi7015 "far more appealing" Pretty much the same way as the first islamic expansion was. Humanitarian navel-gazing wasn't their thing.
@@notthefbi7015 That's hard to say. Christians were still a minority when the emperors decided to turn Christianity into the state religion. It was also largely an urban phenomenon to which the countryside with its much more traditional social structures remained quite resistant, especially in the western half of the empire.
This whole concept is crazy inspiring. Imagining just how different Europe would be in the 1500s of this alternate universe makes me wanna stop what I’m doing and write a long epic.
I hope you continue with this concept!
9:45 actually not quite the same forest. The Statue is located in Detmold in the south of the Teutoburg forest, which they thought at the time was where the battle took place. But archeological findings since then placed the actual place of battle at Kalkriese near Osnabrück, roughly 75 kilometers to the northwest.
From what I've heard, you can actually stand on the hill that the legions were destroyed on.
@codymoon7552 somewhat, the place is actually fairly flat, we went there in school once
Even the historians and archeologists got lost in the forest.
Also, it's Hermann, not Arminius 😊
@@peacehopelovecharity That depends
As a long time viewer of your channel for 10 years+ , this video is one of your very best.
The critical importance of Roman medicine for Roman Power is rarely ever mentioned.
I have new found respect for Roman Medicine, Modern Medicine, and your channel after watching this video.
Thankyou very much for your very excellent content. Looking forward to the next ten years of Alternate History Hub.
The Holy Roman Empire was just like the Roman Empire. Something that turned into an absolute mess until it was ultimately destroyed by the French
The real circle of life if you ask me
In what way did the French destroy the Roman Empire?
@@Ayem427 Went from flipping over to flipping burning cars
Um AcTuAlLy It WaS tHe ViSiGoThS tHaT aCtUaLlY sAcKeD tHe CiTy!!!!1111!!1!!!11!
@@PintoRagazzo I think he's referring to Gaul's in general
Now this is the old school Alternate History Hub video I've been waiting for! For your next one, you should do what would have happened had Alexander successfully invaded/conquered India as he had desired, before his ego was checked by his Army's internal rebellion.
Rome content goes crazy
It's the lead pipes.
Couple of errors on real history: the statue to Arminius is NOT in the forest where the battle happened. No one really knew where the battle had been in the 19th century... iirc, they renamed a forest with a similar'ish name or found one that just so happened to fit the name. In the years since, some more serious history / archaeology was done and the real (very likely) site to the battle was indeed found: it's near Kalkriese in north-western Germany - quite far from the statue. Might also be noteworthy that the whole "these lands are just a bunch of forests, nothing of value, few barbaric people" is what we find in roman sources. As in all interactions with the romans and non-literary people, we only got their word: Rome tended to agrandize the people they defeated after the fact, "look what a mighty enemy we vanquished!" and talk smack of those they couldnt defeat "we didnt leave cuz we lost, we left cuz the land isnt worth shit to us!". So take the sources that speak of the value of germanic lands with heaps of salt. Archaeological evidence suggests that for most of roman-german history after Teutoburg, the border was porous to say the least - regular trade in the border regions existed. The Romans got slaves, amber, furs and other goods in exchange for steel good, sometimes coin, probably different foods (hard to trace today). We found several roman swords in Germania and quite a few coins all the way up to Denmark, usually worn as decoration and status symbols (these were people that didnt use currency).
Were the coins mostly from the late Empire when there were a lot of Germans in the Roman army, or do they go right to Tiberius' time?
@@alanpennie8013 It's been a while since I read about the studies in uni but without being able to provide proper dates, I can say they werent used by people that used coins for their intended use: they poked holes into them and wore them as necklaces. The way they were found (burials) and modified suggests they were used as status symbols: show your power by associating with the powerful dude who's head is on the coin and similar shenanigans.
@@narsil1984
After all the emperor was a god (kinda, sorta) so his image on a coin does make a fair amulet.
@@alanpennie8013 It's possible they saw religious significance, but mostly it's suspected they saw the association with very tangibly powerful forces - the Romans wouldve seemed unnaturally powerful.
Also fun: findings are usually many coins on a string (obviously not maintained but the positions in the sites suggest they were).
As a German Speaker, this concept disturbs me. The idea of a Latin or *HIGHLY* Latin influenced Germania, Es ist mega schrecklich.
I don't think it's really that disturbing. For all we know, Germany as a country would be in a much, much better economic spot if they were conquered by the Romans and had roots in Roman institutions, like Britain did. Germany would've probably unified a LOT sooner than in our timeline.
Maybe Rome wouldn't have been in Germania long enough for German to be latinized, who knows.
@@reaperz5677 Counterpoint: I dont wanna
@@reaperz5677 Counterpoint: The commentor would not exist if it happened.
Quite a few people would not exist. A lot of Americans have German ancestry too, so lots of us won't exist either. @scottthejatt
@@reaperz5677
All fair points
Please make a part two!!
Also, LOVE your dropping "Rome Total War." One of my favorite games of all time!
Augustus: "Quintili Vare, legiones redde!"
Cody: "Okay."
Missed out on a perfect opportunity to say “Okae”
"Ocei."
Imagine the Romans hiring proto-vikings as mercenaries.
OK, more germanic mercenaries.
Why is that so much more interesting than when the Romans hired actual vikings as mercenaries?
@@moritamikamikara3879
Because those actual viking mercs were more loyal then any of it's subjects...
@@moritamikamikara3879 Because it feels more anachronistic to have them fighting together well before what's considered the peak of the IRL Viking era, which many people find more interesting.
Basically the Varangian Guard
"Varus, Give me back my LEGIONS!!!!"😫
How bout you oil up?
@@witherblade7558wtf
'You are walking into a trap Varus, the German will betray you'🤨🙄
That's 'Emperor' Varus to you (@21:58) 😉
5:30 "But like any conflict involving Germany, our story has to take a detour because of the Balkans."
Okay, that's actually a good point.
another great video already?
keep up the good work
Video idea: What if Gladiator didn’t get a sequel
But it didn't..?
good thing we live in that timeline already
Y’all are so weird
@@francescolombardo6467 enjoy your sh1tty goyslop content, you are the prime example of a sheep of the current world order
@mokarokas-1727 it has a sequel and its shit
I have waited ever since the fall of Rome for Cody to make a video on this topic. It's a coincidence I wanted to suggest it today. Thanks Cody for making my dreams come true
Bro, you're forgetting about the Slavs and the powerful eastern German tribes like the Goths and Vandals. No matter how far out Rome expands, they're still going to be stuck with belligerent, warlike people on their borders. If not the Germans then the Slavs, if not the Slavs, than Finno Ugric peoples, if not them then steppe peoples.
They would conquer them all🗿but in all seriousness the Roman’s did conquer ppl for security too so maybe. But not likely tho
The important point however is with the two rivers on their border, they’d need less infrastructure and manpower to hold off any belligerents. Which means more money not being spent on defense AND the manpower shortage from the plague wouldn’t be as critical to the frontier. It would still be a time of pain but he is right there’s this glimmer of hope for a non collapsing Rome in this geopolitical scenario
@Ryanfinder226 Rome did have two rivers on it's borders, the Rhine and the Danube. In fact, the distance between the Elbe and Danube rivers is greater than that of the Rhine and Danube rivers. Rome still got Invaded and beat up by enemies crossing those rivers, after the Antonine plague during the crisis of the third century, which, may have been slightly better for Rome due to an extra population in Germany, but the Germans would be affected by the plague as badly as everyone else would, weakening the legions and giving the new barbarians at the gate, the East Germanic Peoples and the Slavs, opportunity to cross the narrower Elbe River, the Danube river and attack Roman lands.
Yeah, Rome being closer to Slavs means more iron tools for early Slavs which means more effective deforestetion of Eastern Europe primal forests, which means population boom.
Slavic migrations between 450-750 were biggest in whole Europe
@@kosa9662 population isn’t the issue. With the rivers crossings will have to concentrated at crossing points, Rome can fortify these places and deal with them. There’s a difference between all of the Germans and the Slavs and the nomads attacking and just the Slavs and nomads. It’s less to deal with.
Oh this is going to be a good one! Thanks for the video Cody, I'm having a very rough week
The alternate history take on Rome's challenges in Germania is both ambitious and thought-provoking. Loved the parallels drawn with modern struggles in discussing history online.
Super cool ideas and alternate history potential!! Please return to this some day!!!
If Rome holds control of Germania & Britain longer the cultural impacts and potential for hypothetical romance languages is very interesting. Perhaps then it is Slavic rather than Germanic invasions that cause the collapse of Rome. Maybe the Slavs start with the Balkans and topple Eastern Rome first, leaving Western Rome
Yeah and slavs settling anatolia, bulgaria, grecce and maybe even syria. That would be a crazy timeline to see.
The Huns would still come, pushing the slaves and Goths and Vandals and such into the west and the balkans, not Syria. Also, this may make for a lager presence of Baltic peoples, Finno-Ugric peoples, Iranian peoples(think, Alans, Sarmatians) and even the more Asian descendants of the Huns and Pannonian Avars in Europe.
Germany winning WW1 is one of the most realistic alternate history scenarios you could imagine. There are around 1000 little things that all went in favor of the entente and one single piece changing would/could have tipped the scale in favor of Germany. Examples:
- Schlieffen Plan carried out as intended. In reality, during the first battle on the Marne (almost in eyesight of Paris) a gap opened in the German lines and they had to slightly retreat after pretty much winning everything up until this point. The original plan called for more divisions on the Western front and less on the eastern front. With those reserves, the gap is filled and they continue marching.
- 12th battle of Isonzo: What started off as a small relief offense by third grade Austrian troops supported by some German Stormtroops, would have completely kicked Italy out of the war, closing a front for the Central Powers, opening another one for the French.
- T.E. Lawrence against all odds making friends with the Arabs and making them valuable assets (while his government betrayed his friends). Up to this point, the British did not much but lose in that region
- Unrestricted submarine warefare (twice) plus Zimmermann Telegram. Both did nothing to help Germany or harm the Entente, but brought the U.S. into the war. The hope for America was everything that kept France from falling apart at that stage.
- Constantine I (of Greece) winning instead of losing the power struggle. No additional point of attack for the entente
- Austria-Hungary not accidentally marching into a Serbian army without a plan to do so. Serbia could have been out of the war within a few months, completely closing the southern front
and so on and so forth. Those may be 10% of the single occurrences that went against the central powers.
Yeah unlike WW2, Germany actually had a legitimate playing field. They were THE economic and military power house of Europe. There are so many ways that Germany sees a victory especially early in the war. It's a little frustrating to hear people say that Germany stood no chance in WW1, when there were so many moments in which it could've played out a different way that people seem to overlook.
@@dishrame4946
The "Germany had no chance in WW1" is mostly parroted by Anglo propagandists, ironically this paints Germany as even more capable as they practically solo'd France the UK and Russia
Hell even for VERDUN most of that battle was supplied by a single road, a single road where during the total areal supremacy the Germans had nobody thought to bomb the supply trucks, the minute difference of a few pilots not deciding to strafe these trucks slowed the war down tremendously as even a single truck breaking down would've caused a massive congestion and supply issues (being a mud ridden hellhole)
So many tiny moments where everything could've changed, meanwhile in reality almost everything that could go wrong went wrong for the Germans (in both wars funnily enough, they just occasionally lucked out with the enemy capturing their plans and not believing them)
Wait, but the central powers DID win 12th isonzo. It was a colossal defeat for Italy but didn't knock them out of the war.
Both the WWs might not have even happened. With France and Germany having both been "civilized" by Rome and adopting similar cultures, the rivalry across the Rhine likely would not have existed.
the Big thing that the Entente had and the Central Powers didn't was a navy. the German Navy couldn't break the blockade of the Royal Navy (and the Austo-Hungarians didn't even try) and that allowed them to blockade and strangle the life out of the central powers.
I think the most important reason to push the border to the Elbe would be to shorten the overall frontier.
Of course, that also means that the Oder is better.
And the Vistula is even better.
And yes, please explore this more!
the shortest border is when you conquer the whole world
You could definitely see a logic playing out where they first stabilize the area up the Elbe. Then a successor Emperor decides that to gain fame for themselves they'll redo it all under the same logic of shorter borders and push up to the Elbe. And then repeat for someone later eventually taking everything up to the Vistula. With the border being basically the Vistula, Carpathian Mountains, Danube river in the end. Which should really be a highly defensible frontier. if you could but manage to conquer and integrate all those areas.
Beyond that point the border shortening logic breaks down really and all you see if the basically ever expanding hard to defend plains areas beyond. Still, that would gain you an extra thousand kilometers worth of ultimately fertile areas with a lot of trees in the short and medium term to use up as well. That much extra buffer area that doesn't really add to any added communication time would make it very hard to defeat Rome with attacks from the plains.
If it could have actually happened to that extent though... I don't know, but one can certainly wonder. And one can wonder what would have become of Rome in such a timeline as well, because nothing lasts forever. Be it internal or external, something would eventually have broken it up one imagines.
And then roman border is in fucking Siberia
@ Nah. Look at how miserable the Russian borders are throughout history. For what? Marginal land that is only barely useful in the industrial era. No, much better to have your border roughly along the narrowest point between the Baltic and Black Seas. Then, have a few allied states on the steppe to trade with for horses and grain. No long term commitments or obligations. No need for them: all of continental Europe and the Mediterranean basin is enough to be a global hyperpower, if Rome can keep its act together through the centuries.
@@Quickshot0 Beyond the Vistua you tend to meet the old Russia-is-really-fucking-big-problem that brought down empires. And that with successively lower value the further you go. Even pushing beyond the Oder at that time is questionable. Population just got sparcer and sparcer.
Definitely need a part two, this video was awesome. One of the most underrated alternate history scenarios ever imo
20:08 You don't need a wall for that; you just need a slightly bigger hill.
"Himmelbjerget", hahaha...
Love this. This definitely has great potential for a part 2
I can't believe Cody had the... Gaul to tackle this subject.
I've already removed myself from the gene pool. You're welcome.
you better.
No need to be that Frank with him
I don’t get it. Also I’m gay
@@Rokaize🤣😂🤣😂
AltHistHub. I can hear you're burnt out in your voice buddy. You're appreciated. You're one of my favorite channels. Thank you for what you do.
Germans: (crying nervously) "I AM ROMAN! I AM ROMAN! I AM ROMAN!"
Also Germans: "HA! Never conquered, take that Romans! God bless the Kaiser!"
(Roman Deity) bless the (Roman title/name)
It was the Prussians who really pushed the Germanic identity and rejected Rome (HRE Rome), many other Germans (Austrians) still had a dual identity as German Romans.
@@joesmoe6454 I mean, Austria was part of the Roman Empire, after all.
@@joesmoe6454 Facts, distancing themselves from the Vatican's influence was the main reason for this though, as well as the clear advantages of ethno-nationalism as a unifying force against outside influence.
@@joesmoe6454 Ironic considering they just straight up stole the name Prussian from the Baltic natives
15:43 Dresden looks like it's near Stuttgart and Prague looks like Vienna. BRUH
Thank God I’m not the only one who noticed that 😂
Please do a part 2. Add more info. I like what you come up with. The use of good facts and info leads you to a well-made conclusion.
You MUST continue this PLEASE
Its unbelievable that the Antonine Plague is underrated as hell, while the Black Death was tragic and scary - the Antonine Plague basically crippled the only semblance of a civilization in Europe. At least in the Black Death there were already established nation-states but the Antonine Plague? There was only Rome. Its like that one time China experienced their great plague in 1633 that killed off 90% of the population in the coastal regions and Beijing which directly led to the collapse of the Ming Dynasty - and the rise of the Manchus and the Qing Dynasty.
new video idea: "What if there were no plagues?"
just kidding
no I'm for real intruiged by how knowledged the roman medicine was. Sad to see them wiped out by just a plague in that sence.
Nah the real new video idea is: "What if the romans knew about bacterial illnesses 'n' plagues and how to treat those?" I think we would talk about eternal rome here, bc like you said the main factor why the most pre-19-century nations fell was bc of plagues lol
PLEASE explore this idea more, this was great
Love this concept man
What is interesting is that I never really heard about that specific plague and it’s consequences, but it really does make sense.
I don"t think that Plagues were the main reason for the fall of the Roman empire though. The great plague of the 14th century killed similar percentages, but except Serbia and the Byzantine Empire no empire collapsed in the decades following it. I think the main reason for the fall of Rome was the unsustainability of slave economy.
This was really fun to watch. Please do a part 2!
That was fabulous, sir. Bravo! I for one would LOVE to see further exploration of this alternate timeline!
25:00 The Antonian Plague basically replaced the former Latifundium with the lease colony, large swats of land leased out to colonists working on their own, but paying of their lease to the land lords. It paved the way to the feudal system of the Middle Ages.
Yippe! at least no more slavery, just dont mind the mountains of corpses
Man I'd love to a part 2 sometime in the future. I really dig alt history videos and yours are pretty good. Thanks. Kind regards from Daniel Harman.
Great work as always luv to see a pt 2
Been watching your channel for a long time. Loved this episode here, hope we can think of Rome more often. Great video
What if Brazil was a Superpower? What if Mutapa survived and became an industrialized african great power? What if the Kingdom of Madagascar still existed? What if the Konbaung Empire survived and modernized? What if the Qing Dynasty modernized and industrialized?*
Make more alternate history scenarios, Mr Franklin, it could be one of those:
- What if the Huns conquered Constantinople
- What if the Byzantines discovered America
- What if Alexander the Great's Empire conquered the Indian subcontinent and eventually the Indonesian archipelago
- What if Saudi Arabia never existed
- What if Srivijaya discovered Australia
- What if the Mongols conquered Rome
- What if Aurangzeb never came to power
- What if the Romans conquered Scotland
- What if the industrial revolution began during the Viking Era
I could get behind that timeline.
Rome forever.
Absolutely do come back to this late on, preferably next video
One thing could (theoretically) still undo this: The Year of the Four Emperors. Assuming the succession still goes the same, Nero rules, and thus annoys everyone. The Rhine Legions were one of the most important forces to rebel against Nero, and Vitellus gains command of the Rhine(or in this case elbe) legions to join the fray, defeating another challenger and gaining the throne.
But this massively stripped germania of its defences in the meantime, and Vitellus then had to face Vespasian coming from the east with his own Legions, losing against them. With all this in mind, i think it is possible that with the Romans temporarily stripping the area of most of its troops, the still relatively recently conquered Germania rebels. Vespasian, taking charge of things, then has to deal with two revolts with both Germania and Judea, and doesnt have the resources for both. Especially since the Elbe legions were just fighting against him and thus not the most trusted soldiers.
Maybe this doesnt change things, maybe the revolt fails because its too disorganized or Vespasian/Titus still have time to campaign and reconquer the area, but i still think it could be a factor. Maybe the region isnt retaken until Trajan, and by then is dogged enough in its defiance that Hadrian decides to abandon it. Alternate History opens up so many possibilities. The best thing about the conquered Germany timeline is no Frankish migration, and therefore no France. Hooray.
It’s good to see this. Please continue doing this.. thank you for your excellent work.
IIRC, this was Augustus's plan; he correctly assessed that the Elbe and Danube would be the best possible defensive positions. Teutoberg would change that viewpoint. No Teutoberg (or at least Tiberius dying during Germanicus's reign so he could become Emperor with one objective on his mind: finishing what he started.
Love the idea of this alt history, just the smallest difference can roll into a cascade of different alternatives which make up for an amazing video, and hell yeah I want a part 2!
ohhh, ive been wanting this one
Please make a part 2, this was a really great video
4:36 and he shows normal map with the border on the Rhine ...
The romans during that period controled up to the Elbe river
Also Britania wasnt part of the Empire yet
Also Tiberius wasnt yet Emperor during any of his campaigns ( Augustus was still around )
When he was an Emperor he didnt leave Italy even once
I would love to see the continuation of this!
I’d love to see a part 2.
Alternate scenarios contradict with my fascination of history but you have to appreciate the amount of research and vision you put in those projects
BRING PART TWO PLS👍
yes part 2
WE NEED A SECOND VIDEO ON THIS TOPIC PLEASE AND THANK YOU
Cody: "Sigh i never stop thinking about rome please help me"
Me: No i don't think i will.
Very good video. Looking forward to a part two!
7:32 Varus, VARUS, GIVE ME BACK MY LEGIONS
Great book
That's 'Emperor' Varus to you (@21:58) 😉
Easily one of my most enjoyed videos of yours. Thank you.
What if the Heavenly Kingdom had won the Taiping Rebellion?
Yes, this.
One of those "what if ethiopia industrialised" scenarios
It'd lead to a very interesting cultural shift if the conversions managed to stick, but doing so would be in spite of foreign intervention.
Despite the Americans being all for it, everyone else saw the Taiping as basically just a westwashed anticolonial rebellion, which today we marvel over but back then was seen as above all else, bad for business.
They couldn’t win, they were basically a christian version of Eye-Ses. If you know what I mean.
It would collapse pretty quickly if it did
There are many heathens in this comment section that doubt the power of the brother of jesus christ and his power of herb-picking
Great video, I need part two!
You could try a theory on the Manhattan project, 3 entered my mind this week:
1. What if the project was delayed for whatever reason?
2. What if they listened to Teller and built a Hydrogen bomb instead?
3. What if Germany didn't surrender as early and they used the bombs on Germany instead?
Definitely do a part 2 this one was really interesting
3:47 Wait… So you are telling me, Armin from Attack on Titan had defended Germania?
Considering spoilery events in the lore the character's name is probably a reference to the Germanic leader yes.
(As well as the Armenian Gc photographer, a German soldier named Armin)
Yea, but his friend Eren played a fundamental role
all hail the crimson king!
Obviously, he defeated them single all alone when he nuked the forest and legions in it in colossal titan transformation
@petrfedor1851 they covered it up.
YES! I NEEDED THIS!! PLEASE MAKE ANOTHER!! 🙏
There is (was?) a great Romanesque museum in Köln, which we were told was the furthest north Roman city in Germany. It was an awesome museum.
I think it is the furthest north.
It gets too old beyond it.
This channel makes my life easier obviously like not in any physical way but I love history and I especially love when you talk about alternate history I find you very interesting and I like when you get a little out there with it like this one.! This channel has been one of my favorites for years thank you so much for doing all the work that you do
The modern state of Saxony has NOTHING to do with the Saxon tribe. The saxon tribe lived in the state of LOWER SAXONY.
Todays Saxony only became the name after Barbarossa (Staufer) took the dutchy from Henry the Lion (Welfe).
The follow up video on this would be awesome. The implications from a Roman Germany would be huge.
Are those fort symbols at 3:20 from Imperator: Rome?
I would definitely be interested in a part two on this
Need to defend Varus: he followed the standard procedure and indications from a source he had no reason to not trust, even Caesar would have bought it (and, being Caesar, likely found a way to break through the ambush, but that's Caesar).
I really dont think that Ceaser could have gotten out. From the few sources we have, it seems the legion was attacked from all side all at once while marching. There were no formations, many men probably would've stowed wepons , armor, and ammunition for slings, bows, and the like. The Legions were also followed by lots of civilian camp followers who are not prepared for a battle. It's very likely that Arminus would've know that without officers and the signle men, ranks couldn't be formed and very likely had his men kill them first. So, no officers, unprepared men, loose ranks, and civilian panic. This would've been utter chaos and there is probably no way in hell that anyone could've gotten out of that. The biggest strength of the Roman Military was cohesion and tactics. With such chaos tactics are thown out the windo.
@@codymoon7552 I know it's extremely unlikely. But after the miracle at Alesia, where Caesar had to face two enemy armies, each of which outnumbered his and that were attacking at the same time while taking advantage of the piece of terrain where the Romans couldn't make the field fortifications intended precisely to deal with this kind of surprises and STILL CRUSHED THEM ONE AT A TIME, one can expect almost anything from him.
@lordMartiya At Alesia, Ceaser had well groomed, high moraled, well prepared men standing in formation. He would have had none of those things in the woods.
@codymoon7552 At Teutoburg, Varus had all of that except the formations. And Caesar, being Caesar and having already been burned due Vercingerorix having been a close friend, would have suspected what was going to happen the moment Arminius disappeared.
That's the difference between Caesar and Varus, Caesar could see the ambush coming before it could be sprung. And if Varus' men could exact a heavy toll in the situation they found themselves in, Caesar could find a way out.
@@lordMartiya that was literally impossible. The ambush that Arminius organized was almost perfect. The Romans were marching in a narrow terrain surrounded by trees and formeling a column kilometers long. The germanic tribes attacked the back of the column so they could exploit numerical superiority and no backup from the front could arrive in time. For three days they employed the hit and run tactic until the three legions were decimated. The only thing that we can agree on is that probably a capable man like Caesar wouldn't have fallen in such a trap. When Varus saw the smoke coming from the other side of the forest he trusted Arminius and marched through the forest. Caesar wouldn't have been so s*tupid to pass through the forest. Anyways, this Teutoburg ambush was ignored by historians until the 19th century, when Germans were looking for an historical episode to justify their union and create a sense of nationality (same narrative was adopted by the nazis in early 20th century). From that day on, the Teutoburg distaster has been hyped so much that people believe that it was the main cause of the Romans withdrawal from Germany. In my opinion this episode is completely overrated, just a couple of years later, germanicus defeated Arminius multiple times, and even later, romans crossed the Rhine several times to launch punitive campaigns (like Maximinus Trax or constantine did), and every time they kicked a huge amount of germanic a*sses. The reality was much more complex than that, but the conquest or the superiority in battle was never a problem for the romans. The main reason for the missed conquest of Germania was mainly in the non centralized structure of the germanic tribes that were anything but mot unified group of people ( like the 19th and early 20th centuries german propaganda wanted us to believe). The problem is that most of the people today still believe in this false propaganda.
I would really like to see a second part to this!
I would like to add a few things
1) Good portion of Germanic tribes that brought down Rome like Goths, Vandals and Jutes still are outside of Roman borders and can cause problems. They might even be more advanced as they have better contact with Rome. And Sassanids still are pain in the ass.
2) I don’t see Roman internal problems being any better.
Therefore I could still see Northern Balkans Italy, Southern Gaul, Hispania and North Africa being overrun in the fifth century.
However I don’t think the much more powerful presence in Northwestern Europe would be overrun (The Germans that did it are integrated), at most loosing Britannia to some proto Vikings. Thus a second powerful Roman successor state would exist in area similar to the Frankish kingdom
Edit: Also I would see during the 6th century this Northwestern Roman Empire being involved in reconquest with Justian (they would take North Italy, Rest of Gaul and Hispania) Due to them helping Justinian the eastern Rome would be less exhausted and not lose to Arabs
I think it would be better to take the resource rich land of Bohemia that was mentioned directly and move up to the oder river or even the vistula and connect them to the slovakian mountains and rivers further north like the dniester which would integrate the tribes mentioned and give rome a good defense in depth strategy since not really having lines to fall back on probably was the most of what caused the wests downfall
Yeah I agree with this a lot. I noticed this video had a glaring lack of Goths and other Eastern Germanic tribes. I still think the Huns would dislodge and “shotgun” those tribes westwards, though with a better defended border and more space in between, it’s possible that more of Rome could’ve gone unpartitioned by Germanic tribes.
@@meanleanbean1628It would have still be partitioned, as the infighting for the imperial throne would have still destabilized the empire to it's point of collapse.
@@Finn_the_Cat My point still stands, internal problems and distractions with Sasanids for Constantinopol and proto-Vikings for Aachen or Munich combined would allow the Huns and their alied tribes to smash into the Balkans, Italy, Hispania and Afrika.
the successor state to Western Rome might also be more cohesive & unified than the Frankish kingdoms later, which in our timeline, was prone to split up (divided amongst Charlemagne's 3 grandsons)
imagine what would have been France, Germany & Italy in our timeline, became instead a massive bloc of Gauls, Franks & Romans
Honestly, you narrate history so good you could do a second history channel just for narration of historical moments.
20:17 Cries in Marcus Aurelius.
Honestly, Cody, I find myself really interested in seeing how far we can take this scenario into the future, if you think it can be done. Awesome vid tho
25:54 The answer to this would be Slavs, and they would be just as impactful as the Germanics were.
Would be great to see this continued,
14:07 DR mentioned let's goooo 🗣️🗣️🔥🔥
We take what we can get
Now I want to see a full tier list video where you rank every single one of your previous videos on how 'Realistic' the scenario is!
Oh my god, Arminus is Lion El’Johnson and Augustus is Roboute Guilliman
Cody, your videos start with a historical Idea and end just at the border of fiction. I respect you for acomplishing this every time
0:37 I’m disappointed in you Cody that you purposely didn’t include the big bird video on this tier list. I’d have to place it under. “Plausable”
Also you spelled Plausible wrong….
That's just part of the Cody flavor, like saying "calvary".
Please make another episode of this it was just legendary!
11:06 WorldBox moment
Reallll
Yes, part 2 please
The good timeline.