Ben Shapiro CAUGHT doing Historical Revisionism (Benny Morris L)
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- Опубліковано 1 жов 2024
- LonerBox investigates a claim made by Ben Shapiro which was even referenced by Benny Morris and is commonly claimed by Right Wing Zionists. But something is wrong - dates don't line up and after some investigation, LonerBox unpacks how this small claim comes to misleading conclusions.
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Thanks for tackling this topic with nuance and actually giving a shit about the facts. I have to push back against some of your assertions, though. What Ben Shapiro said is total bullshit - no argument from me there - but the Benny Morris quote is correct, even if it was poorly sourced. In 1920, the phrase Palestine did encompass the east bank of the Jordan. BUT you are absolutely correct that it was never part of the intended “Jewish Homeland”, certainly not in the 1922 League of Nations Mandate for Palestine, and by implication not in the 1917 Balfour Declaration.
The key text in this regard is article 25 of the 1922 Mandate: “In the territories lying between the Jordan and the eastern boundary of Palestine as ultimately determined, the Mandatory shall be entitled, with the consent of the Council of the League of Nations, to postpone or withhold application of such provisions of this mandate as he may consider inapplicable to the existing local conditions”.
In other words, the exact boundary between Iraq and Palestine had not yet been determined but the term Palestine was, in general, understood to encompass both banks of the Jordan. (For example, The Palestine Exploration Fund would routinely use the terms Western Palestine and Eastern Palestine). The quote above would be nonsensical if the eastern bank were not also understood to be Palestine. HOWEVER, the whole point of that quote is that the Balfour declaration DOES NOT apply to “Eastern Palestine”, which becomes “Transjordan”, which in 1949(?) is renamed Jordan. In other words, what Benny Morris wrote is not incorrect, even if it could have benefited from some clarification.
As for the Negev/Nagb, I agree that it was not universally understood to be included within “Palestine”, and there’s a strong argument to be made that the McMahon promise would have included the Nagb, even assuming it didn’t include “Western Palestine”, since the Negev, along with most of Jordan, was all part of the Dimashq province. Therefore also the 1917 Balfour Declaration would not have originally been applicable to the Negev, but (justly or not) the declaration was retrospectively applied to it in 1922 by the League of Nations.
I wish I could understand this comment. It gave me a headache lol. Not your fault, that was probably the British.
@@franklingoodwin "Not your fault, that was probably the British"
Let's be real. Would you do better if you were tasked to write the Silmarillion AND the lore of the middle east for the 20th century?
@@PixelPenguin77 I can't keep up with it. When I think I know what's going on on I discover another easter egg lol
@@franklingoodwin I’m sure I share at least part of the blame for the lack of clarity🙈. But can we at least agree to save some hate also for the French lol?
@@phillipben-shmuel8811 I'd say the british, the french, the ottomans, zionist leaders and arab palestinian leaders. It was a complete shitshow.
Commenting for the support. Keep it up LonerKing!!
Why does benny morris on the thumbnail looks like an older version of lonerbox
I was gonna comment the exact same thing lmao
@@LisbonLion7 walah don't you dare call us "brown people"
@@LisbonLion7they do. All ethnicities look the same, including white people. I’m Australian, and I could pass as English, Irish, French, Dutch, German, Nordic, Slavic etc. don’t be so sensitive.
I didn’t even notice that was Benny morris I thought the joke was that it was old meme of Box.
Oh you didn't know? Lonerbox is the secret son of Benny Morris.
Handing out Ls to Ben Shapiro and Benny Morris whilst in Israel just made the trip 20 times more dangerous
That's not very funny.
We are not like islamic countries, we have protetors against the country itself inside Israel and they are allowed to protest.
not at all actually
No it didn't... you can say whatever tf you want in Israel, it's a free speech democracy.
@@Twiggyshayz i mean that's true, but I've also seen quite a few reports of people being arrested for posting (super, super mild) pro-Palestinian sentiments so idk how to feel on that one
@@idontwantahandlethoughThere was a story recently of the police arresting a woman for (admittedly rather inflammatory) pro Palestine posts with the police cuffing her with ziplinks and a blindfold which when this came out the prosecutors general office tore the police a new asshole for not getting a warrant ant the woman was released without charges.
Though I agree that there was no political idea of Palestine in San Remo that included Transjordan, it corresponds to the religious idea of what the Holy Land contained. The Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem consisted of roughly the area shown in that map. As did the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem (reestablished in 1848) though that also contained Cyprus. The Anglican bishopric (orginially established in 1841 as common bishopric by England and Prussia) also had jurisdiction over what later became Transjordan, though it extended much further, including Syria, Mesopotamia, Egypt and Ethiopia. But, at least for Catholic statesman (French, Italian), when they heard Palestine they would have roughly thought about an area resembling the Latin Patriarchate. For the Presbyterians that dominated the cabinet deciding on the Balfour declaration (cf. Alasdair Black, Balfour Declaration, in Perichoresis (2018) vol. 16/4, p. 35-59) the area of "Palestine" would have resembled the biblical land of Israel (Twelve Tribes) as it did for the Jews of course. But, as you correctly pointed out, the Balfour declaration was drafted in a way to be as unspecific as possible (avoiding the word "state" and using "in Palestine" instead of "of Palestine") and San Remo also left the question of borders open.
Also: I have a pdf of Wasserstein 1991, The British in Palestine. If you provide me with an E-Mail I can get it to you.
Yeah... seems like Ben Shapiro is using a more traditional/religious idea of Palestine, and pretends like this is exactly what was promised in the San Remo conference.
@@PixelPenguin77 Exactly, yet this religious conception of Palestine was very present in in Jewish and Christian religious education of the time. There is a quote of a Mandate official that the British school system (which in the 19th century consisted mostly of schools sponsored by the Church of England) thaught its students more about the geography of the biblical land of Israel than about England.
I would argue that there was a vague idea in the head of every statesman in San Remo what Palestine would look like and it would certainly containt parts of Jordan, as Jesus was active in what was then known as the Decapolis.
For details on the political border development I would recommend Gideon Biger: The Boundaries of Modern Palestine 1840-1947
There was an ASSUMPTION that the area later known as "transjordan" was part of palestine. San remo created two mandates 1 palestine and 2 Mesopotamia. Transjordan is not mentioned as it did not exist. Land between palestine and Mesopotamia, which included future transjordan,were to be defined and drawn at another time.
"If they wish to assert their claim to Trans-Jordan and to avoid raising with other Powers the legal status of that area, they can only do so by proceeding upon the assumption that Trans-Jordan forms part of the area covered by the Palestine Mandate." March 1921 british memorandum
No way Shabibo did this!!! He's such a innocent boy who does not know what WAP is.
Ben Gebino
His wife had to tell him it was a medical condition. Poor soul
Bep Shabiño
mister shabelli
I mean the definition for a fair target and „ militant“ is very simple.
Just becouse you are part of the Ukrainian army dosnt mean u are a militant during ur vacation when u are driving arnd with ur family. Or if you join a protest.
True but given how Hamas does not use uniforms as a matter of doctrine you can only assume that they are always acting as militants.
@@zaper2904 no.
even without wearing signs of being a militant ( wich is against international law) that dosnt mean that now you can just start guessing on civilians.
a militant is someone with a weapon who is engaging in fighting.
so as long as those kids didnt have weapons on them. they are not considered militants in that moment.
even tho they are working for hms.
as i said you are not a militant if a idf soldier goes to the beach to swim for vacation. if hms soldiers would have killed him thats a war crime.bcs he is not a militant
🏳️⚧️Jordan
Why is he wrong? In Paris peace conference the map the Jews presented had the east bank of the Jordan river included in the prosed Jewish state. In San Remo the east bank (TransJordan) was included in the Jewish state. The British Mandate for Palestine (Jewish state) included the Trans-Jordan. The British partitioned the Mandate (illegally) by breaching (article 5 of) the Mandated the Transjordan continued to be part of the (British) Mandate for Palestine until 1946 when Jordan became independent. In 1978 even the PLO said that Jordan was part of "historic Palestine." So where is the 'Wrongness?'
When will people start to recognise obvious propaganda?
I swear the world needs mandated media training
It's not really propaganda. More their bias no? I'm sure they believe what they say.
@@uncoiledfish2561 I see intentionally spreading lies and disinformation as propaganda, not a simple bias.
@@Jaq2Jack they're propagating Jabotinsky/revisionist talking points, but might not be aware of it. To Benny Morris' credit, seems like even the Jewish Virtual Library fell for it. Still a bad look though...
How is it obvious? It took a lot of digging for Lonerbox to get to the bottom of this and even then he missed some important points
@@Discoursivist care to share...?
I'm curious if Benny Morris lazily wrote that sentence incorrectly, and left it without checking it against his cited source (Wasserstein).
An incorrect, but close analysis of that one sentence could suggest that he meant to phrase it such that the inclusion of Transjordan was in reference to British control, period, not included in their control of Palestine. Or maybe he lazily meant "included" in the sense of being included in their Mandate for Palestine.
I don't know if this reasoning holds up, however, because as you said about British anxiety over French encroachment on Transjordan from the North, I'm not exactly sure whether France *would* be unhappy with Britain's control (or lack thereof) of Transjordan, contradicting this alternative interpretation.
Either way, Benny's sentence is simply wrong (as far as I see), but worse is the "Greater Israel" revisionism that was (also lazily) taken from it; in particular, the younger Benny's representaton and the map presented in the Jewish Virtual Library.
Great work 👍 as always BonerBox! Stay safe!
PS: I apologize if any of my understanding here is inaccurate. I haven't dived in as much as other curious people like yourself have.
Edit: spelling
Lol, how dare Destiny's messiah get something wrong.
@@ronniekregar3482 "it's close enough for jazz"
@@ronniekregar3482Get something wrong? He's as much as a propagandist as Finkelstein. Finkelstein doesn't claim to be a historian though.
@@franklingoodwin He DOES claim to be an expert of some kind, though.
@@franklingoodwin lol, I know.. I was being sarcastic
It should probably be noted: Arafat and King Hussein of Jordan said publicly on many occasions that "Jordan is Palestine". Additionally, British documents until 1946 refered to trans Jordan as "Eastern Palestine" and modern day Israel "western Palestine".
again the french
and the brits
What Lonerbox was reading sounded familiar and it turns out I own a physical copy of this exact book. Found it at a yard sale last year
Based!
JVL is far right Israeli source. Check their article on Deir Yassin
What's the minimal number of words 4 AlgoBoosting now? 5?
Very interesting. Thank you🙏
Why don;t you interview Rudy Rochman
Benny Morris and the Jewish Virtual Library: "It's called we do a little finkelsteinin"
It’s important to understand that during WWI the British made promises to four different interests that were contradictory - Arabs, Zionists, France, and America, whose demands for indigenous self determination were a condition of American entry into the war. England and France were desperate, having made a complete cockup of what should have been an easy dismantling of the collapsing Ottoman Empire. After the war, England and France went back to their imperial ways, sowing the seeds for both Hitler’s rise and the war torn disaster the Middle East has been since.
This is like some Elden Ring 'The Lands Between' lore.
Also, why is Jordan trans?
That's it? You have ONE line to pick apart from Ben's video?
Geo History put out an amazing(updated) map video easay of the area going back to the Cannanites . Watched it yesterday. I Highly recommend.
It's based on how you look at the word "in". Is it in whole or in part. We don't know cause the Brits always used obfusive language.
i think you knocked this one out of the park, thanks loner
Can you link to these PDFs/references?
But we love Benny!
I don’t get why Ben has to be dishonest to make his point. Like there is a valid argument for the state of Israel, and there is even a valid argument for a zionist state of Israel. No need to be dishonest to make that argument
All i wanna know is, how comes LonerBox can find time to stream but Tiny can't?
fuckin'
it's a two weeks old re-upload I think
This is an old Vod
But still, it would give the whole of Palestine to the Jewish State? How is it wrong to say that Transjordan was meant for Arabs and Palestine for Jews?
It's wrong to say it because it's factually incorrect. And to quote Ben Shapiro "facts don't care about your feelings".
@@franklingoodwin I really don't care either way, but I'm just saying that the quote he found just proves that Transjordan was not really on the table for Jews, but not the whole of Palestine ^^
@@flaviospadavecchia5126 I think the point is more like "there wasn't a clear drawn map of what was supposed to be given to who" but yeah
@@PixelPenguin77 that's absolutely fair. But with all of the Arab states that were created from the mandates, I also don't think that Arabs got the short end of the stick. It seems like no matter how small Israel would be, it's still too big for a good portion of Arabs in the region...
@@flaviospadavecchia5126 yeah, I don't think anyone here is arguing that arabs got the short end of the stick. Unfortunately, arab palestinians got screwed, jewish people from all over the muslim world got screwed, and this is where we at now.
🎉first
You son of a .... 😡😁
Can confirm, was here. He really was first.
@@coreyander286 "trust me bro"
Very weird timing to upload this video from a very old stream
trying to win back his pro palestine viewers while he’s in israel with zionist destiny, it’s pathetic
Hey LonerBox, there might have been some mistake in interpreting what Benny said. When he defines British mandate Palestine, he does not seem to include trans-Jordan to my estimation. The Quote follows "Land-Eretz Yisrael or the Land of Israel for the Jews, Falastin or Palestine for the Arabs-was defined during the years of British rule (1918-48) as the area bounded in the north by a range of hills just south of the Litani River in Lebanon; in the east by the Jordan River, the Dead Sea, and the Arava Valley (Wadi Araba); in the west by the Mediterranean Sea and the Sinai Peninsula; and in the south by the Gulf of Eilat (or Gulf of Aqaba). In all, it consists of about 26,320 square kilometers (10,162 square miles), an area roughly the size of New Jersey." I'm about 170 pages in and it seems to be accurate as Ilm attempting to check most footnotes that I find "weird". (I'm a finance bro not a historian so odds are I'm getting plenty wrong. keep up the great vids.
Please help?