when i worked in the machine shop in a spring factory when we were surface grinding after we dressed the wheel the grinder stayed running till we got the job done...........reason being so i was told that the inertia on the wheel made the wheel different when you turned it off ......if you went to break or lunch you left the machine running.....just thought id throw that out there ............Eric.....
I have to give those cheap 5c collet holders the same treatment. It is a simple addition but well worth it. Thanks for sharing it and the new shop tool with us.
My rotary table was waiting for me when I got to the office this morning. First this I did was look to see if the edge on mine was painted or machined. It's actually machined, but I'm interested in seeing how parallel it is to the back. Thanks for another great video.
First of all, I love all your videos. Much better than watching the TV! Second, I just bought a Vertex HV4 which is why I watched this one in particular and found it very entertaining. After watching, one thing did occur to me though. Why was it necessary to machine the front face of the rotary table when you could just as well accurately locate it on the mill bed using the already machined rear face using an engineer's square?
Two ideas. 1) One add keyways both ways. 2) If you ever build a tailstock as mentioned in the first Vertex video build it as a unit with the spindle at a fixed height that matches the height of the index head. Also have the keyways in both on center. With the keyways on center you can use it or a key mounted in the keyway to pick up the centerline. You could also do this by cleaning up the clamping slot equally on both sides to provide a built in "Toolmaker's Chair". But you're a smart guy I think you figured this all on our own
Stefan, I did a lot of die grinding in the 1960's and we also used diamond blocks like yours for dressing the wheels, the only difference was that the diamond shaft was set in the block at an angle, so that the angled side of the diamond always dressed the wheel on the left side away from the bottom of wheel and not on the tip of the diamond, at that time that was the teaching, I think it was to protect the diamond being ripped from its setting, of course I realize there are many ways to do things, My reason for the comment is, I feel some viewers are not familiar with the danger of dressing, balancing, test ringing, and using grinders, or seen a 12"x 2" wheel explode because of unbalance, It might be to their advantage if you could do a little follow up in your next video on surface grinding, for safety sake, Edmund..........Alberta.
Chris, yes that is right, we also dress relieved the back of the grinding wheel for clearance leaving a small raised land when side grinding and finishing sharp corners to eliminate heat buildup caused by too much contact of the wheel, and always had a blob of Plasticine handy to use when resharpening small diameter punches of any kind, Edmund...........Alberta
Chris, did you ever come across progression dies that we always called Italian design dies, it had two bolsters on top where the stripper was really a top die and the punches floated in the punch plate, it had the Belleville spring washers between the two top bolsters, they had to bottomed out to produce the forms, we had Jones and Shipman 540s, really spoiled us, Edmund............Alberta
Hey, Stefan! My main obstacle in starting to set up some form of hobby shop is the noise the tools would make. Seeing that grinder just gave me hope - it's amazingly quiet and compact. Could you please tell me what make / model it is, so I can look for one? Thank you so much!
great video as always. question about your mill. why did you mount the DRO scale to front of table as opposed to rear? as to not loose that depth of feed?
Stefan Gotteswinter I did the same with mine but see many guys who put it on the rear. the front installation made more sense to me. thanks for quick response!
Very nice improvement on your rotary table. I also enjoyed the first in this series. From where did you order the table in the first place? I can see it is available in the States, but I am in Greenland and freight from Germany would be far less because it could be shipped surface to me. I really enjoy your videos. Thanks for sharing.
I'm about to buy one of these vertex rotary tables and I'm going to attach a plate to the bottom with a 5/8 key milled on the bottom so it indexes in my mill table slots. If the mill table slots are good the table will be aligned well. For critical work I'll probably still chk it though.
Your mill X-axis DRO scale has moved from the front to back of the bed...any insight on that decision? I'm about to add DRO's and like your "continuous improvement" approach.
Good eye :D I wanted to be able to hang longer parts over the front edge of the table. Also the back is a safer place for the linear scale, when lifting setup tooling or workpieces onto the machine. And it looks cleaner.
Stefan, this is very good job and nice done, but you should more protect yourself than the machine for dust. Most grinding works with a lot cooling fluid, in order to avoid dust arround in the shop.
as usual an interesting vid from the master of ceremony :-) and it makes the use of the table faster and easier ... normally the producers job but if Stefan explains it even me gets the job done :-))
Love the shaky grinding table, you will get a better finish if the grinder is on a stable base, and safer too. BUY or make yourself a WHEEL GUARD, if that wheel bursts you will have pieces of wheel embedded in the wall as well as possibly yourself. Great series, keep the videos coming. A further thought about the rotary table surface not being parallel to the base by 0.01 mm. Now you have the surface grinder, you can correct it. Put the complete rotary table on the grinder complete with the indexing handle, align the wheel over the approximate centre line of the rotary table. Bring the wheel into contact with the table, as you wind the grinder to and fro, turn the hand wheel on the rotary table a turn or two between passes, until you have completed 360 degrees or more. You will lose your nicely shiny ground surface and get a patterned one, but it will be flat and true to the base.
Hi mate. Ja, eeh, ok where did that grinder come from all of a sudden? Don't ever send that rotary table for a repair, they will send it back to a Chinese laboratory never to be seen again. Ain't it wonderful what you can make out of the raw castings from China, and than it's exactly what you wanted in the first place. Well done mate.
+Marcel Timmers Marcel.... You could have a point..... it wouldn't surprise any of us, seeing a bunch of Chinese engineers, confused to no end, puzzling over that thing.... maybe coming to the conclusion it had 'evolved' on its travels... And indeed, Chinese stuff can be used, as long as you don't consider it to be much more than castings... Paddy
Haha ;) No, not in all cases - Some parts are just to big or impossible to setup on a normal surface grinder, so scraping is still a viable option for me :) The grinder is nice for small, hardened workpieces...
+Cancun771 The leading edge is where the wear on the wheel takes place leaving the remainder of the wheel at the original dressed diameter. If Stefan used the entire width of the wheel for the pass, the wheel diameter would wear resulting in an inaccurate grind from one end of the baseplate to the other due to the wheel diameter being reduced as it moved along.
Wouldn't that be a reason to use the whole width, keeping the wear even and to a minimum? Just wondering, I don't have a grinder yet, just a lowly Tormek ;-)
+Cancun771 The front part of the wheel do the heavier grinding and tapers, while the back is still to initial measures, this back part sparks out the part, so, only wears out un-noticeably, where the precise grinding, for heavy removal you will have to redress the wheel during the process... ;)
Cancun771 if you used the whole width of the wheel there is the possibility of the wheel coming to a complete stop and and jamming, most likely discolour the metal as if burnt, it would most certainly leave a very nasty finish, Edmund.........Alberta
Just let it flop - The machine is small enough and stiff within it self not to be affected by it. Have you ever seen a massive cnc mill going full speed? It will flop around too - And still hold tolerances. The trick is not to mount a machine tool rigid to the floor, the trick is to build a rigid machine. (Works only up to a certain size of machine of course. A gantry mill with 10m travel is not rigid by it self in all directions, it needs to be put on a basement and anchored to it.)
Next step is to make a machinist square that fits perfectly in the slots of the milling table. Then just slide the rotary tabel against it and you would not have to indicate it in..
Common shop lingo - You wont hear the term "Micron" from pretty much no one in germany :) (I could use much stronger words here, but I dont want to offend anyone ;) )
I think the use of micron in the US stems mainly from not getting units confused. If you say .005th it is usually assumed (there's that ass you and me thing again) that you are working in inches. I have to work in both converting from metric to inch when machining and inch to metric when inspecting machines and components. Most major industrial companies in the US are working to metric and ISO tolerances now anyways. The whole inch thing is partly cultural and partly legacy. The UK went metric in the 70s and there's still stuff in Imperial. Besides Slapped upside the head with a 2 x 4 just doesn't sound right as a 50 x 100
I am shocked -- shocked! (:):)) that you did not set it up in the Gack scraper! Kidding aside, a surface grinder is a real asset. It does not take as long as a scraper and if all you have to remove is a couple tenths of a mm, probably a lot faster. One reason Asian tools are so cheap is that they build to a price point. Else they would cost far, far more than they do. If you look at is as a casting kit, Asiatic tools are reasonable.
Stefan put your wheel guard on. You will know all about it if the wheel lets go without a guard on. Safety first. Machine flopping around is not a good look either. Nice vid otherwise.
nice job & cool grinder.. Looking forward to seeing more of it.
It's a treat to watch you work, Stefan. You plan your work then work your plan; followed by inspecting the results. Old school workmanship.
when i worked in the machine shop in a spring factory when we were surface grinding after we dressed the wheel the grinder stayed running till we got the job done...........reason being so i was told that the inertia on the wheel made the wheel different when you turned it off ......if you went to break or lunch you left the machine running.....just thought id throw that out there ............Eric.....
I have to give those cheap 5c collet holders the same treatment. It is a simple addition but well worth it. Thanks for sharing it and the new shop tool with us.
My rotary table was waiting for me when I got to the office this morning. First this I did was look to see if the edge on mine was painted or machined. It's actually machined, but I'm interested in seeing how parallel it is to the back. Thanks for another great video.
That is a lot closer than I ever get things. Keep on keeping on.
It's a real pleasure to watch you work! Looking forward to more videos.
First of all, I love all your videos. Much better than watching the TV!
Second, I just bought a Vertex HV4 which is why I watched this one in particular and found it very entertaining. After watching, one thing did occur to me though. Why was it necessary to machine the front face of the rotary table when you could just as well accurately locate it on the mill bed using the already machined rear face using an engineer's square?
Two ideas. 1) One add keyways both ways. 2) If you ever build a tailstock as mentioned in the first Vertex video build it as a unit with the spindle at a fixed height that matches the height of the index head. Also have the keyways in both on center. With the keyways on center you can use it or a key mounted in the keyway to pick up the centerline. You could also do this by cleaning up the clamping slot equally on both sides to provide a built in "Toolmaker's Chair". But you're a smart guy I think you figured this all on our own
Great idea for the rotary table - nice to see your grinder at work... I am envious of that ground finish!
Nice job Stefan.:)
thanks stefan for another great video. good to see that little grinder going at last.
Stefan,
I did a lot of die grinding in the 1960's and we also used diamond blocks like yours for dressing the wheels, the only difference was that the diamond shaft was set in the block at an angle, so that the angled side of the diamond always dressed the wheel on the left side away from the bottom of wheel and not on the tip of the diamond, at that time that was the teaching, I think it was to protect the diamond being ripped from its setting, of course I realize there are many ways to do things,
My reason for the comment is, I feel some viewers are not familiar with the danger of dressing, balancing, test ringing, and using grinders, or seen a 12"x 2" wheel explode because of unbalance,
It might be to their advantage if you could do a little follow up in your next video on surface grinding, for safety sake,
Edmund..........Alberta.
Chris, yes that is right, we also dress relieved the back of the grinding wheel for clearance leaving a small raised land when side grinding and finishing sharp corners to eliminate heat buildup caused by too much contact of the wheel, and always had a blob of Plasticine handy to use when resharpening small diameter punches of any kind,
Edmund...........Alberta
Chris,
did you ever come across progression dies that we always called Italian design dies, it had two bolsters on top where the stripper was really a top die and the punches floated in the punch plate, it had the Belleville spring washers between the two top bolsters, they had to bottomed out to produce the forms, we had Jones and Shipman 540s, really spoiled us,
Edmund............Alberta
Hey, Stefan!
My main obstacle in starting to set up some form of hobby shop is the noise the tools would make. Seeing that grinder just gave me hope - it's amazingly quiet and compact. Could you please tell me what make / model it is, so I can look for one? Thank you so much!
Woo Hoo Stefan has a surface grinder, I can wait to see what you do with it.
Excellent and quite helpful indeed. Thank you for sharing your techniques and insight.
great video as always. question about your mill. why did you mount the DRO scale to front of table as opposed to rear? as to not loose that depth of feed?
Right, in the rear it would get in conflict with the bellows.
Stefan Gotteswinter I did the same with mine but see many guys who put it on the rear. the front installation made more sense to me. thanks for quick response!
Very helpful Stefan as I have the same table! TFS, GB :)
Very nice improvement on your rotary table. I also enjoyed the first in this series. From where did you order the table in the first place? I can see it is available in the States, but I am in Greenland and freight from Germany would be far less because it could be shipped surface to me. I really enjoy your videos. Thanks for sharing.
I'm about to buy one of these vertex rotary tables and I'm going to attach a plate to the bottom with a 5/8 key milled on the bottom so it indexes in my mill table slots. If the mill table slots are good the table will be aligned well. For critical work I'll probably still chk it though.
Seems such an inexpensive feature to add.
Nice modification.
Thanks,
John
Fantastic video. Very informative. Subscribed.
Nice Job. Thank you Stefan.
Do you have good care of the longevity of their equipment , congratulations.
As always great work. How you fit all those machines in your shop is amazing. What is the SQ meters of your shop.
Nice. And a good excuse to use the new shop tool.
Your mill X-axis DRO scale has moved from the front to back of the bed...any insight on that decision? I'm about to add DRO's and like your "continuous improvement" approach.
Good eye :D
I wanted to be able to hang longer parts over the front edge of the table. Also the back is a safer place for the linear scale, when lifting setup tooling or workpieces onto the machine. And it looks cleaner.
Stefan, this is very good job and nice done, but you should more protect yourself than the machine for dust. Most grinding works with a lot cooling fluid, in order to avoid dust arround in the shop.
Stefan, another great video. Thanks!!
Bob
Most people i know would rather have a small paper fire than ruined ways haha. Also, would glass cleaner be preferred to straight alcohol
as usual an interesting vid from the master of ceremony :-) and it makes the use of the table faster and easier ... normally the producers job but if Stefan explains it even me gets the job done :-))
Hello Stefan, could you tell me the price of your optimum mill? I'm in the market for one but it's tough to get price's on them . . cheers!
where to get that pinky grindstone!?!?
all stones over hear are an boring grey color...
pink is cool!
A word you need to use ......circumference, love you work
Hi, which is the model of the rotary table?
Love the shaky grinding table, you will get a better finish if the grinder is on a stable base, and safer too. BUY or make yourself a WHEEL GUARD, if that wheel bursts you will have pieces of wheel embedded in the wall as well as possibly yourself. Great series, keep the videos coming. A further thought about the rotary table surface not being parallel to the base by 0.01 mm. Now you have the surface grinder, you can correct it. Put the complete rotary table on the grinder complete with the indexing handle, align the wheel over the approximate centre line of the rotary table. Bring the wheel into contact with the table, as you wind the grinder to and fro, turn the hand wheel on the rotary table a turn or two between passes, until you have completed 360 degrees or more. You will lose your nicely shiny ground surface and get a patterned one, but it will be flat and true to the base.
What about a back or front edge so you can use your precision t slot thingies? :)
great idea!
Hi mate. Ja, eeh, ok where did that grinder come from all of a sudden? Don't ever send that rotary table for a repair, they will send it back to a Chinese laboratory never to be seen again. Ain't it wonderful what you can make out of the raw castings from China, and than it's exactly what you wanted in the first place. Well done mate.
+Marcel Timmers It just popped up on ebay only 300km away from me..I had to buy it! :D
I bet you did. Only, how did you get it on the back of the motorbike? ; )
+Marcel Timmers
Marcel....
You could have a point..... it wouldn't surprise any of us, seeing a bunch of Chinese engineers, confused to no end, puzzling over that thing....
maybe coming to the conclusion it had 'evolved' on its travels...
And indeed, Chinese stuff can be used, as long as you don't consider it to be much more than castings...
Paddy
Amen to that mate, In their defense, I bet they know what a good rotary table looks like, but even they can't make it for the price this one was sold.
So does this grinder mean you are tired of scraping?
Haha ;)
No, not in all cases - Some parts are just to big or impossible to setup on a normal surface grinder, so scraping is still a viable option for me :)
The grinder is nice for small, hardened workpieces...
Seems like it left a black streak going left to right on the part. 2 thou of a mil is quite good.
Why use several passes when the wheel seems wide enough to do it in a single go?
+Cancun771 The leading edge is where the wear on the wheel takes place leaving the remainder of the wheel at the original dressed diameter. If Stefan used the entire width of the wheel for the pass, the wheel diameter would wear resulting in an inaccurate grind from one end of the baseplate to the other due to the wheel diameter being reduced as it moved along.
Wouldn't that be a reason to use the whole width, keeping the wear even and to a minimum?
Just wondering, I don't have a grinder yet, just a lowly Tormek ;-)
+Cancun771
The front part of the wheel do the heavier grinding and tapers, while the back is still to initial measures, this back part sparks out the part, so, only wears out un-noticeably, where the precise grinding, for heavy removal you will have to redress the wheel during the process... ;)
Cancun771
if you used the whole width of the wheel there is the possibility of the wheel coming to a complete stop and and jamming, most likely discolour the metal as if burnt, it would most certainly leave a very nasty finish,
Edmund.........Alberta
Do you have any shop equipment that you haven't modified? 😀
I am still shying away from modifying myself ;)
How do you maintain tolerances with that machine flopping around on the floor like that?
Just let it flop - The machine is small enough and stiff within it self not to be affected by it.
Have you ever seen a massive cnc mill going full speed? It will flop around too - And still hold tolerances. The trick is not to mount a machine tool rigid to the floor, the trick is to build a rigid machine.
(Works only up to a certain size of machine of course. A gantry mill with 10m travel is not rigid by it self in all directions, it needs to be put on a basement and anchored to it.)
Yes, correct i have a big cnc grinder and its free standing, it will not move because the base alone is 2.5 tone without fluids or motors and pumps.
Next step is to make a machinist square that fits perfectly in the slots of the milling table. Then just slide the rotary tabel against it and you would not have to indicate it in..
6:26, properly wrapped! At about 3-4 times better and more than an average Joe would do.
stefan great tip nice video.=======bob
Yes...0.002 mm at ...°C (plus the flatness error of the reference plane) ;)...Anyway great job!!!
Why do you use 1000th of a mill instead of microns?
Common shop lingo - You wont hear the term "Micron" from pretty much no one in germany :)
(I could use much stronger words here, but I dont want to offend anyone ;) )
I think the use of micron in the US stems mainly from not getting units confused. If you say .005th it is usually assumed (there's that ass you and me thing again) that you are working in inches. I have to work in both converting from metric to inch when machining and inch to metric when inspecting machines and components. Most major industrial companies in the US are working to metric and ISO tolerances now anyways. The whole inch thing is partly cultural and partly legacy. The UK went metric in the 70s and there's still stuff in Imperial. Besides Slapped upside the head with a 2 x 4 just doesn't sound right as a 50 x 100
Imagine if you'd have said Inch thou Stefan hahaha
I am shocked -- shocked! (:):)) that you did not set it up in the Gack scraper! Kidding aside, a surface grinder is a real asset. It does not take as long as a scraper and if all you have to remove is a couple tenths of a mm, probably a lot faster. One reason Asian tools are so cheap is that they build to a price point. Else they would cost far, far more than they do. If you look at is as a casting kit, Asiatic tools are reasonable.
Oops, yes, do add a wheel guard to that scraper!
Nice little grinder...even if it is French...;-)
Paddy
Stefan put your wheel guard on. You will know all about it if the wheel lets go without a guard on. Safety first. Machine flopping around is not a good look either. Nice vid otherwise.
i think you made a big mistake not grabbing the cast iron base for your surface grinder, watching that thing wobble all around makes me sea-sick lol