I believe he was using the 41st or 42nd edition of "Tabellenbuch Metall" 1999/2002 which is one of the standard German books for metal working. The latest edition should be "Tabellenbuch Metall / 46th edition 2014 / ISBN-10: 3808517263 / ISBN-13: 978-3808517260"
There seems to be a translation (English version) of the book - posted by Billy T down here in the comments: English edition: Mechanical and Metal Trades Handbook 2nd edition, 2010 ISBN 13 978-3--8085-1913-4 images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41RlIMuirSL._SX370_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg
One of the reasons I love your channel is you go straight from showing your extremely sensitive indicator for aligning then say "machine it to 14 plus a little".
This video is exactly why I enjoy watching your channel so much. There’s always room for improvement in any machine tool, and as always, you nailed this one. Probably watched this video series 20 times so far, as it’s so interesting. Keep up the videos.
You are amazing. Appreciate the time it takes to make the videos. I love your precision and learn something every video. Looking forward to a rotary table tailstock project. Thanks again.
always love your videos - very helpful and your dry humor is great. I have learned so much about precision work from you. I am in the same situation of wanting the best but not having the funds to get it. lol. I have been following your example and getting what I can afford and improving it. thank you so much for sharing these videos on improving machines and tooling. I have already used Molice to tram my mill from your previous video - I still laugh about "a fish might drown" from that one. This series will certainly help me improve my rotary table!! Thank you so much and keep up the very helpful work.
Aloha Stefan, Mahalo [Thanks} for the videos looking at the comments, opinions are like something else," we all have one" !!! I appreciate your work habits and ethics. Keep up the good work.
Stefan, if it was me doing this rebuild, I would sleeve the body with Phosphor Bronze, then machine the table spigot to fit. That way you will have cast iron wearing on Bronze, good life. What you intend to do is have a possibly hardened steel sleeve on the turned down table spigot, then working in the cast iron body, not so good. The Bronze sleeve in the body need only be a nice tight sliding fit and fixed with Loctite. Then you will be able to have the finished Broinze sleeve in your hand as a test fit when machining and honing the table spigot.
i have broken down oil pumps in the past which are hardened steel shaft in graphite cast iron casting body, the hardened steel shaft has worn up to 1/8" and the cast iron had no more than .001" wear. when i lap a surface i use a piece of 10mm plate glass and bond carbarundum paper to it, usually for blocks and cylinder heads.
Excellent video Stefan as always. You can lap the cast iron with an aluminum lap and garnet abrasive. Garnet is one of the so called "non charging" abrasives. Make sure you let the abrasive break down to non existent as you approach final size and just use wd40 only at the end. Scrub the bore well with a stubby nylon tooth brush and it should relatively grit free. Love that brain surgery with a battle axe comment! ATB, Robin
@Stefan Here in the States the go-to brand of the abrasive @Robrenz mentions is Timesaver lapping compound: www.newmantools.com/lapping/time.htm. Not sure if it's available in DE but maybe the description/specs you can find under that name will lead you to something available to you. I actually first learned about it from one of Robin's videos on the adjustable chuck stops. Tom Lipton also uses it in his recent lapping plate videos. Super video! :)
Thank you Robin, especially for the detailed instructions for lapping cast iron, that was very much of a mystery to me. Garnet like the sandblasting media? I have seen the timesaver lapping compound and Richard mentioned it also during the scraping class to lapp babbit bearings, but it is a bit hard to be sourced in germany, but garned in different grits should be possible to get..
By the description it seems very much like Flitz polish. Diatomite parts are very big and brittle at first, but with every movement break down to smaller ones, thus no abrasive embedding. Though embedding is not so dangerous, it could be removed with several means, from ultra-sound washing with hot washing liquid like Fairy(technology used in car engine cylinders honing), down to more specific such as mechanical disruption of abrasive grains via scraping or use of some soft material like lead to absorb them. But i'm afraid it's all like polishing a brick to mirror surface. Meaningless.
Stellar video as usual Stefan. I think what I like about your channel so much is we are in effect, twin sons of different mothers. Maybe it's our German heritage to some extent, while I was born in and live in the US, it's pretty hard to be more German than my forbearers. In any event, the pursuit of precision seems to be a core part of what makes "us" tick. I find it interesting, while you were showing the T-nuts and discussing using the table slot for location, my mind immediately went to securing a properly sized piece of barstock to act as a semi-precision guide, watch a few minutes more, sure enough, your final approach was exactly what I had in mind. What's really cool is at the end, you'll have a rotary table that performs at the highest levels practical, having invested less that 25% or so of the cost of a high-end offering. I'd yank that Optimum plate off and replace it with a Deckel engraved plate of your own design, showing this is no longer a garden variety imported table. Can't wait for the next video. Oh, before I forget, I don't want you to disclose any of "DR." King's techniques, but I'd be interested to hear what surprises you learned in the class, meaning, are there any process changes you need to make to your self-taught scraping? Thanks.
Good tip on stone flatness( I,ve seen it used wrong too) knock those highs down with a punch that's a rebuilding old stuff trick. you get good at it you can meke em disappear. looks like another good series. that table be pretty nice to use.
Hey Stefan... looks like your scraping class was a success! I'm looking forward to all the scraping videos coming up and I'm exited to see if there is something easy I can start trying on too. Btw. a guy dismantling his rotary table and scraping some surfaces... yes you already guessed it... IS A TOOLMAKER! ;)
I can see that you are being very precise as usual. I am sure the rotary table will be much better than the factory made it after you finish. I cannot imagine how you manage to keep things so clean.
+Amateur Redneck Workshop lol I know! I look at my lathe and think Stefan would probably cordon off my shop and call in a hazmat team in before setting foot in it. It drives home the point that high accuracy depends on a lot of things being right, with cleanliness being one of them. It also explains why my work isn't as accurate.
That Mahr gage really works nice! Have you considered milling perpendicular slots in your mill table to use stop blocks for speed alignments? I know that feature is common on boring mills and I get reliable repeat alignments within about 0.01mm if everything is nice and clean. For most all the work I do the stops are plenty good for doing the work without indicating and it saves a huge amount of time.
All respect for your work and your ethics 👍🏼💪🏼😋! It's fun to see someone buy a VW Polo and try to evolve it into a Bugatti Veyron. A little like cheap Amazon-chuck versus a Schunk made in Germany.
Hmmm - I would like to gently disagree on a couple of the instances you gave, Stephan, of machine clamps not needing lots of tightening torque. Firstly, drawbars or drawbolts: I agree with you entirely in the case of Morse and other self-holding tapers (typically around 1:20 on diameter), but when it comes to self releasing tapers, they sometimes need LOTS of drawbar tension - and given that you don't always know when you fit a toolholder what the cutting conditions may be on a later job, I feel it's better to form the habit of tightening them to the max. Before I developed this habit on my 40 taper Cincinatti mill, I had several experiences of a taper working loose, which makes a distinctive noise during a cut, and if you do not immediately knock out the feed , things could get ugly. And in the case were it is not detected but cutting forces are light, fretting (brown powder) may start, which will quickly destroy the self holding ability, as well as the precision, of the spindle. IF you always take light to moderate cuts, which is usual on precision machines (as you may have done with the 40 taper on your Deckel FP2 high speed head, Stefan, which does not feature high torque) and avoid heavy interrupted cuts and big face mills, you may never experience this problem. The usual self releasing taper is 7:24 on diameter, which dates back to the 1920s, when Cincinnati, K&T and B&S took out a joint patent. The usual tapers are 40 and 50, but 10 thru 30, 45 and 60 are also in existence. The same taper is used on NMTB, NT, ISO, SK, CAT, V-flange, and BT (also some ANSI, DIN and JIS tapers). R8 is another self releasing taper but I have no experience of how tight it needs to be pulled. On modern NC machines with power drawbars, the torque is intentionally so high that the pull studs will break unless they are renewed according to a schedule which takes account of fatigue. The second situation where I have found it necessary to swing on a clamp is with the quill lock. These are not always well designed, a classic example being the otherwise excellent Arboga U2508 milling machine. Unless and until the quill lock is re-engineered on these machines, it is unfortunately necessary to fit a longer handle on the quill lock, and swing hard on it, in order to prevent the spindle retracting during moderate to heavy milling cuts. This becomes evident if you fit a digital scale or a dial to the quill: you can see it moving in real time. The general point you make is (I think) important and valid, but as usual with generalisations, the devil is in the exceptions.
saubere arbeit, stefan. find deine werkzeugverbesserungsvideos echt klasse. zeigt, dass man mit etwas eigeninitiative auch aus günstiger ausrüstung noch einiges rauskitzeln kann.👍 mal aus reiner neugier: hast du die t-nut auf der ganzen laenge geprueft? wäre ja ärgerlich, wenn die passfeder nur stellenweise passt. wenn du eine durchgehende nutzt, waers bei dem kleinen spiel, dass du vorsiehst eventuell ne gute idee sich auch mal die geradheit der nut anzusehn. da koennte sich schnell mal was verkanten. bin auf jeden fall gespannt auf die kommenden folgen.
this is a great video, I've been looking into getting an import rotary table and what i'd need to do to make set up faster and more precise between jobs. Just wondering, what resource book was that you used when you were looking at the T Slot tolerances?
Watched this again. My cheap 4" actual had no ball oiler like yours to oil the main shaft and cast iron sleeve. Has a spiral in the shaft so I think it was intended to be oiled, somehow! I need a plastic mallet to remove the the shaft from the sleeve. Do not trust myself to bore the housing but wonder if just using a cylinder hone would open the clearance without going too far. I wounder too if the shaft is tapered just a little since half way out of the sleeve it loosen up. Novist machinist.
Great video! After seeing your original rotary table video I purchased a rebadged 6" Vertex RT. It was all the same except it lacked the radial bearing on the base of the tables shaft so I added one and it greatly reduced the locked and unlocked turning resistance and eliminated any rock on the table. I still have an issue with the worm screw and worm wheel mesh. It gets tight from aprox. 340 to 360 degrees. I have a feeling that the worm wheel might not be centered. How did you realign the worm wheel on the table?
Do you by chance have a dimensional sketch of the two clamps you made to secure the table when vertical? I would like to make a pair for that exact use on my 6" RT. Thank you for all the great ideas and precision info.
Could you explain how a dial indicator has backlash? If it has a functioning return and hairspring inside it shouldnt, unless the stem to bore fit is very poor.
I noticed when you measured the "spindle" and concluded it was out of round, you measured at different heights. Is there any chance it was made with a very very slight taper?
The find adjustment on indicator stands is more like a miniature deadblow hammer....I 'm stuck at deciding between the older Hicator 1μm or a Filetta digital indicator. The biggest gripe with the comparator style indicators is the lack of travel which might be a problem with my sketchy base, while the digital one has a data output too and could power a lot of projects. I only need a μm indicator for setting the correct preload on my mill spindle bearings and would rarely need it for anything else. Precision for a little less or versatility for a little more?
Maybe the fancy indicator could have used a custom bore adapter to measure the outer bearing surface for the rotary tee slot plate. Impressive work as usual though.
Stefan, in one of your earlier videos you made comment to smaller brushes for the workshop. I have found some that I use in my workshop that may be of interest to you if you are still interested, dimensions are as follows: Overall length 210mm, Brush Length 65mm. They come in Steel, Nylon, Brass and Stainless Steel brushes. By the way, nice videos and very informative.
A more than interesting and informative video Stefan. No surprise's there though. Your video quality and editing is rapidly getting very close to Clickspring's. I've got the same Mitutoyo indicator other that mine's in imperial so it's got the white faced dial. I bought it new about 15 years ago. I'd guessed it was made by Mahr because other than the Mitutoyo name it looks exactly like one of the Mahr Millimess indicators. After your comment I finally took a good look at the back of mine and sure enough there's a small silver sticker and small lettering that does say made by Mahr in Germany. Guess I should have read that at some point. :-) And yes that needle zero setting knob is the nicest I've used as well. My R/T funny enough is also a 6" diameter Vertex. But an earlier one when they still used roller bearings on the tables spindle. You've just made a lot of work for me since now I'll have to pull it apart and run the same checks on it. I do know the MT center taper is a few 10ths off and the same for the tables OD. Adding some good ratcheting threaded table locks instead of the clunky Vertex original locks is on the list as well.
Thank you for the kind words :) I have seen the older Vertex with the tapered roller bearings, I am not sure if I would prefer that above the plain bearing - I think both have advantages... Good idea with the ratcheting handles, I will order some Kipp handles.
Thank you for giving me the courage to tear down my 6" table, a less precision HV6 version of the Vertex made in China without the finish and precision. Question: how you go about adding a clamp to the back of the table when in the vertical position? You mention it at 3:42. Do you add a L piece bolted to the slot there? Thanks again.
Just a thought but, what if you machined 2 key-ways, to line up with the two slots in the mill table? Wouldn't that give an even more precise alignment of the rotary table?
You showed that your mill's T-slot was within spec at 14.02mm. At the one end. Is it possible that the slot varied over its length? At other spots it could be 14.000 and still be in spec. Or is there a spec for the variation as well?
Thanks, great quiality video and tools.Might be used as a learning material. Funny how you mark the workpiece with common marker. I thought Kronzirkel and Stangenzirkel were invented in Deutschland :) BTW, what end gauge set are you using? We have similar, even to wooden box size&form, ones, left from USSR factory production remnants. They are tools of extra quality with precision down to tenths of micron and require extra care & caution, like chemical cleaning before&after every use, gloves, oiling for storage and so on. Were used usually in most fine machining areas, such as flat and round-grinding, or measurement equip tests. A bit puzzling to see them used as calipers for mere t-slots width measurement. Or do you have second more exact set and use this one just for work? About the whole rotary table construction. Awesome, with emphasis on "awe" part. Luft is absolutely intolerable for anything more exact than stone axe grinding. Simple multiplification to table radius or possble workpiece offset in chuck gives horrible numbers. Even smallest chinese divide head like BS-0 seems better choice. It has cone bearings at every end of hardened steel-made spindle, so there's option to change them for something decent like NSK, thus giving completely different level of equipment rigidity and exactness. IMHO this table cannot be improved to such level. Best material for sleeve would be bronze, but it requires constant lubrication and will soon lose geometry, distorted with radial direction forces, inevitable in milling operations. Cast iron versus hard steel dosn't require lubrication but i don't think it will stand against pressures, taking into account the forces applied to contact surface. Though maybe i'm wrong, and you'll find a way to succeed. Thanks again for the vid, it's really helpful!
Hi Stephan, just wondering if you have found if there is particular ratio between feed rate of the cut and the radius of the cutter that makes for better finishes? Thanks for sharing your knowledge Cheers Raymond
Again, everything is made of rubber; more so when you work to very tight tolerances. Precision surfaces on big stiff hunks of iron subjected to ordinary clamping forces move like putty when scanned to micron precision.. Stefan, have you considered honing the central bore of the base casting. I don't know the German term fore the process but briefly "honing" involves a semi-consumable rotating mandrel and a tighly located frangible stone expanded radially using a wedge. I refer to the honing system dominated in the US by the Sunnen Corporation but others abound. A bore can be honed within 1 micron of a true cylinder in the open shop using hand held power equipment. I mention this because you seem to be seeking the ultimate precision possible in your home shop. The equipment is usually on the rental market in most any town with a precision manufacturing base.
Hi Stephan, have just bought a Vertex branded rotary table identical to yours, I am thinking about doing some upgrading some of the tolerances in my table. I was wondering if it would be desirable or even possible fit a precision roller bearing or would you still recommend a bronze bush? Sorry to delve so far back into history I have been cogitating for a couple months regarding the advisability of doing this. I hope you are able to give a little advice. Regards Mark. 😅
Hi! These days I would go all in and put radial/axial needle roller bearings in it - They are cheap and incredible stiff. Have you used the table already? My recommendation would be to clean it once, lubricate it properly and then just use it for a few months/projects. That will tell you a lot of what you want to change :)
@@StefanGotteswinter thanks for help I’ll do a bit more research into the bearings available in Australia. I have thinking about this for a while trying to figure out how I can do this upgrade. Disassembly cleaning and adjusting has definitely on my to do list as there is a slight tight spot. I really appreciate you taking time to respond to my questions, getting good first hand information and parts can be difficult where I live it’s 3000km from the nearest larger city with specialised suppliers.
In einem Video des Rundtisches wurden Öler ausgetauscht, weiß jemand die Din oder einen Shop wo man diese art von Ölern kaufen kann? Danke schon im voraus
Hi Stefan. I am following this with interest as I have one of these rotary tables. As you say it is a nice piece of kit. You usually have very nicely produced video's but in this one there is an annoying booming noise every now and then. Its as if you are kicking the tripod or mic' stand. Or maybe you bought a wireless mic' and have it attached somewhere and you keep catching it on something. Please do not take this comment as negative but maybe it will help to track it down. I do like your projects and have followed all of them with great interest. Thanks for sharing. regards from the UK
While they where pretty good square and parallel, they where not perfectly flat (especially the axial bearing surface on the turntable itself, I saw that when I blued it up...will show it in one of the next videos :)
He was using a German book... but I believe any version of the Machinery's Handbook or equivalent should do. I would guess there should be some kind of native version to mostly any language? ;)
Haha :D I could, but I already scraped the surfaces of the table, but when I blued it first time on the surfaceplate, it did not look very warped at all. But that has not always to be the case, I have seen cast iron move like crazy in some instances when machined.
I couldn't agree more! "You should" is constantly used by "UA-cam experts" throughout the video community and is the most rude and aggravating comment imaginable. Please carry on with your superb videos and ignore the occasional moron.
Pretty much forever, but with abuse they can get out of flat. But I didnt buy mine, I ground mine out of a normal aluminium oxide stone on the surface grinder :)
What was the reference book that you are using? do you have an ISBN number?
I believe he was using the 41st or 42nd edition of "Tabellenbuch Metall" 1999/2002 which is one of the standard German books for metal working.
The latest edition should be "Tabellenbuch Metall / 46th edition 2014 / ISBN-10: 3808517263 / ISBN-13: 978-3808517260"
Thanks for that info Frank!
Russell Faison Is this the same book as Westermann's? I am looking for the "English" version
There seems to be a translation (English version) of the book - posted by Billy T down here in the comments:
English edition:
Mechanical and Metal Trades Handbook
2nd edition, 2010
ISBN 13 978-3--8085-1913-4
images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41RlIMuirSL._SX370_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg
@Frank Müller ansered this perfectly :)
One of the reasons I love your channel is you go straight from showing your extremely sensitive indicator for aligning then say "machine it to 14 plus a little".
Those are the official specs!
But also alignment is way more critical than dimension.
Love your care and attention to detail and accuracy which is always succinct and eloquent avoiding getting mired in it for too long
New word: Stefanizing. The act of turning cheap import tools into German quality shop art.
He needs to use that in his titles “stephanizing my rotary table”
This video is exactly why I enjoy watching your channel so much. There’s always room for improvement in any machine tool, and as always, you nailed this one. Probably watched this video series 20 times so far, as it’s so interesting. Keep up the videos.
I am always amazed by the precision of your work. A germ can't find a place to hide on your mating surfaces.
Back from the scraping class, now everything gets scraped :-). I bet, first morning after the class, he buttered his toast with a biax ;-)
Another awesome video Stefan. Can't wait for the rest of the series. I appreciate all the time you put into these videos.
You are amazing. Appreciate the time it takes to make the videos. I love your precision and learn something every video. Looking forward to a rotary table tailstock project. Thanks again.
always love your videos - very helpful and your dry humor is great. I have learned so much about precision work from you. I am in the same situation of wanting the best but not having the funds to get it. lol. I have been following your example and getting what I can afford and improving it. thank you so much for sharing these videos on improving machines and tooling. I have already used Molice to tram my mill from your previous video - I still laugh about "a fish might drown" from that one. This series will certainly help me improve my rotary table!! Thank you so much and keep up the very helpful work.
Victor McQueen 1rf
Stefan as always you make the minute seem grand Thanks for sharing!
This was very thorough, detailed, and fun to watch. Thanks for sharing it!
Excellent video Stefan. Much enjoyed. I admire your patience!
Nice work Stefan! I'm looking forward to the next part. Thanks for sharing.
Another entertaining and thought provoking video. Great stuff young man!
Enjoy watching with your work and explaining. Very cool. Thanks
Thanks for the video. Looking forward to part two.
Good to see someone else in to measuring like me. Always nice to get the gauge blocks out.
Aloha Stefan, Mahalo [Thanks} for the videos looking at the comments, opinions are like something else," we all have one" !!! I appreciate your work habits and ethics. Keep up the good work.
Stefan, if it was me doing this rebuild, I would sleeve the body with Phosphor Bronze, then machine the table spigot to fit. That way you will have cast iron wearing on Bronze, good life. What you intend to do is have a possibly hardened steel sleeve on the turned down table spigot, then working in the cast iron body, not so good. The Bronze sleeve in the body need only be a nice tight sliding fit and fixed with Loctite. Then you will be able to have the finished Broinze sleeve in your hand as a test fit when machining and honing the table spigot.
I was thinking about bronce too, but hardened, lapped steel against cast iron has also excellent wear properties.
i have broken down oil pumps in the past which are hardened steel shaft in graphite cast iron casting body, the hardened steel shaft has worn up to 1/8" and the cast iron had no more than .001" wear. when i lap a surface i use a piece of 10mm plate glass and bond carbarundum paper to it, usually for blocks and cylinder heads.
Over kill is why we love your content, lol.
Excellent video Stefan as always. You can lap the cast iron with an aluminum lap and garnet abrasive. Garnet is one of the so called "non charging" abrasives. Make sure you let the abrasive break down to non existent as you approach final size and just use wd40 only at the end. Scrub the bore well with a stubby nylon tooth brush and it should relatively grit free. Love that brain surgery with a battle axe comment!
ATB, Robin
ROBRENZ o
@Stefan Here in the States the go-to brand of the abrasive @Robrenz mentions is Timesaver lapping compound: www.newmantools.com/lapping/time.htm. Not sure if it's available in DE but maybe the description/specs you can find under that name will lead you to something available to you. I actually first learned about it from one of Robin's videos on the adjustable chuck stops. Tom Lipton also uses it in his recent lapping plate videos. Super video! :)
Thank you Robin, especially for the detailed instructions for lapping cast iron, that was very much of a mystery to me. Garnet like the sandblasting media?
I have seen the timesaver lapping compound and Richard mentioned it also during the scraping class to lapp babbit bearings, but it is a bit hard to be sourced in germany, but garned in different grits should be possible to get..
I would make sure the abrasive is garnet. In the US silica sand and aluminum oxide are more prevalent abrasive blasting medias.
By the description it seems very much like Flitz polish. Diatomite parts are very big and brittle at first, but with every movement break down to smaller ones, thus no abrasive embedding. Though embedding is not so dangerous, it could be removed with several means, from ultra-sound washing with hot washing liquid like Fairy(technology used in car engine cylinders honing), down to more specific such as mechanical disruption of abrasive grains via scraping or use of some soft material like lead to absorb them.
But i'm afraid it's all like polishing a brick to mirror surface. Meaningless.
Stellar video as usual Stefan. I think what I like about your channel so much is we are in effect, twin sons of different mothers. Maybe it's our German heritage to some extent, while I was born in and live in the US, it's pretty hard to be more German than my forbearers. In any event, the pursuit of precision seems to be a core part of what makes "us" tick. I find it interesting, while you were showing the T-nuts and discussing using the table slot for location, my mind immediately went to securing a properly sized piece of barstock to act as a semi-precision guide, watch a few minutes more, sure enough, your final approach was exactly what I had in mind. What's really cool is at the end, you'll have a rotary table that performs at the highest levels practical, having invested less that 25% or so of the cost of a high-end offering. I'd yank that Optimum plate off and replace it with a Deckel engraved plate of your own design, showing this is no longer a garden variety imported table. Can't wait for the next video. Oh, before I forget, I don't want you to disclose any of "DR." King's techniques, but I'd be interested to hear what surprises you learned in the class, meaning, are there any process changes you need to make to your self-taught scraping? Thanks.
Good tip on stone flatness( I,ve seen it used wrong too) knock those highs down with a punch that's a rebuilding old stuff trick. you get good at it you can meke em disappear. looks like another good series. that table be pretty nice to use.
Hey Stefan... looks like your scraping class was a success! I'm looking forward to all the scraping videos coming up and I'm exited to see if there is something easy I can start trying on too. Btw. a guy dismantling his rotary table and scraping some surfaces... yes you already guessed it... IS A TOOLMAKER! ;)
I can see that you are being very precise as usual. I am sure the rotary table will be much better than the factory made it after you finish. I cannot imagine how you manage to keep things so clean.
+Amateur Redneck Workshop lol I know! I look at my lathe and think Stefan would probably cordon off my shop and call in a hazmat team in before setting foot in it. It drives home the point that high accuracy depends on a lot of things being right, with cleanliness being one of them. It also explains why my work isn't as accurate.
Great video....build/discussion/instruction......enjoyed!
Love the detail, thanks!
That Mahr gage really works nice! Have you considered milling perpendicular slots in your mill table to use stop blocks for speed alignments? I know that feature is common on boring mills and I get reliable repeat alignments within about 0.01mm if everything is nice and clean. For most all the work I do the stops are plenty good for doing the work without indicating and it saves a huge amount of time.
Thank u very much for sharing. Always very interesting
Now you're putting ideas in my head... ;-)
This is much better made then the actual Vortex brand table I have apart next to my laptop.
Nice project. I like it.
great vid again, looking forward to part2, by the way: corundum is the same as aluminium oxide
Hey Stefan, ich muss dir echt mal ein ganz Großes Lob aussprechen!!! Du hast es echt ganz schön drauf! Mach so weiter es kann nur besser werden.
Danke! Besser geht immer :D
All respect for your work and your ethics 👍🏼💪🏼😋! It's fun to see someone buy a VW Polo and try to evolve it into a Bugatti Veyron. A little like cheap Amazon-chuck versus a Schunk made in Germany.
Hmmm - I would like to gently disagree on a couple of the instances you gave, Stephan, of machine clamps not needing lots of tightening torque. Firstly, drawbars or drawbolts: I agree with you entirely in the case of Morse and other self-holding tapers (typically around 1:20 on diameter), but when it comes to self releasing tapers, they sometimes need LOTS of drawbar tension - and given that you don't always know when you fit a toolholder what the cutting conditions may be on a later job, I feel it's better to form the habit of tightening them to the max.
Before I developed this habit on my 40 taper Cincinatti mill, I had several experiences of a taper working loose, which makes a distinctive noise during a cut, and if you do not immediately knock out the feed , things could get ugly. And in the case were it is not detected but cutting forces are light, fretting (brown powder) may start, which will quickly destroy the self holding ability, as well as the precision, of the spindle.
IF you always take light to moderate cuts, which is usual on precision machines (as you may have done with the 40 taper on your Deckel FP2 high speed head, Stefan, which does not feature high torque) and avoid heavy interrupted cuts and big face mills, you may never experience this problem.
The usual self releasing taper is 7:24 on diameter, which dates back to the 1920s, when Cincinnati, K&T and B&S took out a joint patent. The usual tapers are 40 and 50, but 10 thru 30, 45 and 60 are also in existence. The same taper is used on NMTB, NT, ISO, SK, CAT, V-flange, and BT (also some ANSI, DIN and JIS tapers). R8 is another self releasing taper but I have no experience of how tight it needs to be pulled.
On modern NC machines with power drawbars, the torque is intentionally so high that the pull studs will break unless they are renewed according to a schedule which takes account of fatigue.
The second situation where I have found it necessary to swing on a clamp is with the quill lock. These are not always well designed, a classic example being the otherwise excellent Arboga U2508 milling machine. Unless and until the quill lock is re-engineered on these machines, it is unfortunately necessary to fit a longer handle on the quill lock, and swing hard on it, in order to prevent the spindle retracting during moderate to heavy milling cuts. This becomes evident if you fit a digital scale or a dial to the quill: you can see it moving in real time.
The general point you make is (I think) important and valid, but as usual with generalisations, the devil is in the exceptions.
Nice job
Thanks :)
Have to say I love watching you not accept "good enough" and see what it takes to get you happy.
saubere arbeit, stefan.
find deine werkzeugverbesserungsvideos echt klasse. zeigt, dass man mit etwas eigeninitiative auch aus günstiger ausrüstung noch einiges rauskitzeln kann.👍
mal aus reiner neugier: hast du die t-nut auf der ganzen laenge geprueft? wäre ja ärgerlich, wenn die passfeder nur stellenweise passt. wenn du eine durchgehende nutzt, waers bei dem kleinen spiel, dass du vorsiehst eventuell ne gute idee sich auch mal die geradheit der nut anzusehn. da koennte sich schnell mal was verkanten.
bin auf jeden fall gespannt auf die kommenden folgen.
this is a great video, I've been looking into getting an import rotary table and what i'd need to do to make set up faster and more precise between jobs.
Just wondering, what resource book was that you used when you were looking at the T Slot tolerances?
To clean a surface I use a piece of flat file that has been surface ground to take off the sharp edges instead of a stone, works very well
very nice work.
Thanks!
A pleasure to watch Stefan, Will anything be safe from scraping now?,
Regards, J.
I don't even bother waiting to the end of the videos to push like, I already know I will.
"you will see that you see nothing" a famous quote by Stefan Gotteswinter 2017
Watched this again. My cheap 4" actual had no ball oiler like yours to oil the main shaft and cast iron sleeve. Has a spiral in the shaft so I think it was intended to be oiled, somehow! I need a plastic mallet to remove the the shaft from the sleeve. Do not trust myself to bore the housing but wonder if just using a cylinder hone would open the clearance without going too far. I wounder too if the shaft is tapered just a little since half way out of the sleeve it loosen up. Novist machinist.
Great video! After seeing your original rotary table video I purchased a rebadged 6" Vertex RT. It was all the same except it lacked the radial bearing on the base of the tables shaft so I added one and it greatly reduced the locked and unlocked turning resistance and eliminated any rock on the table. I still have an issue with the worm screw and worm wheel mesh. It gets tight from aprox. 340 to 360 degrees. I have a feeling that the worm wheel might not be centered. How did you realign the worm wheel on the table?
thanks Stefan
Do you by chance have a dimensional sketch of the two clamps you made to secure the table when vertical? I would like to make a pair for that exact use on my 6" RT. Thank you for all the great ideas and precision info.
Stefan, could you do a video or take pictures of that Mahr indicator adjustment? I'm wondering what makes it so nice to use?
this guy is a genius, one day man, one day I will get a lathe or mill.
Thanks for sharing
I live in Turkey. You have sent to me the holder of that book, Stefan.
Yesssyesss, Mahr rulez! :)))
Could you explain how a dial indicator has backlash? If it has a functioning return and hairspring inside it shouldnt, unless the stem to bore fit is very poor.
So I would love more then anything to see you finish your 1911 project.
That project is on halt / chanceled - To much time investmend and its problematic with our laws.
I am so sad, but I understand.
Stefan Gotteswinter what project is this??
Shawn Huk building a time machine to travel back to 1911, government started getting up his ass
yeah cant build a gun somebody might get hurt
custom make a bore plug that holds the mahr to measure the outer bearing surface for the rotational tee slot table. total accuracy dude.
Ah! That would be a good soultion - I did it a bit different, wait for the next videos :)
I noticed when you measured the "spindle" and concluded it was out of round, you measured at different heights. Is there any chance it was made with a very very slight taper?
0:56 Stefan with the cocky stuff 😂
quick question.. where do you find that traight edge blueing stone? Looking forward to do some scraping ;)
The find adjustment on indicator stands is more like a miniature deadblow hammer....I 'm stuck at deciding between the older Hicator 1μm or a Filetta digital indicator. The biggest gripe with the comparator style indicators is the lack of travel which might be a problem with my sketchy base, while the digital one has a data output too and could power a lot of projects. I only need a μm indicator for setting the correct preload on my mill spindle bearings and would rarely need it for anything else. Precision for a little less or versatility for a little more?
Clearance Clarence.
Roger Roger
Maybe the fancy indicator could have used a custom bore adapter to measure the outer bearing surface for the rotary tee slot plate. Impressive work as usual though.
Stefan, in one of your earlier videos you made comment to smaller brushes for the workshop. I have found some that I use in my workshop that may be of interest to you if you are still interested, dimensions are as follows: Overall length 210mm, Brush Length 65mm. They come in Steel, Nylon, Brass and Stainless Steel brushes.
By the way, nice videos and very informative.
Thank you, a kind viewer from Germany already sent me a livetime-supply of brass, stainless and steel brushes :)
A more than interesting and informative video Stefan. No surprise's there though. Your video quality and editing is rapidly getting very close to Clickspring's.
I've got the same Mitutoyo indicator other that mine's in imperial so it's got the white faced dial. I bought it new about 15 years ago. I'd guessed it was made by Mahr because other than the Mitutoyo name it looks exactly like one of the Mahr Millimess indicators. After your comment I finally took a good look at the back of mine and sure enough there's a small silver sticker and small lettering that does say made by Mahr in Germany. Guess I should have read that at some point. :-) And yes that needle zero setting knob is the nicest I've used as well.
My R/T funny enough is also a 6" diameter Vertex. But an earlier one when they still used roller bearings on the tables spindle. You've just made a lot of work for me since now I'll have to pull it apart and run the same checks on it. I do know the MT center taper is a few 10ths off and the same for the tables OD. Adding some good ratcheting threaded table locks instead of the clunky Vertex original locks is on the list as well.
Thank you for the kind words :)
I have seen the older Vertex with the tapered roller bearings, I am not sure if I would prefer that above the plain bearing - I think both have advantages...
Good idea with the ratcheting handles, I will order some Kipp handles.
As a grinder about .025 .03 mm would be nice slide fit without binding
Thank you for giving me the courage to tear down my 6" table, a less precision HV6 version of the Vertex made in China without the finish and precision. Question: how you go about adding a clamp to the back of the table when in the vertical position? You mention it at 3:42. Do you add a L piece bolted to the slot there? Thanks again.
Many thanks Frank Muller. I am going to ABE books right now.
Just a thought but, what if you machined 2 key-ways, to line up with the two slots in the mill table?
Wouldn't that give an even more precise alignment of the rotary table?
I'm getting a bench top mill similar to yours. would you suggest a screwless vise or a normal milling vise
You showed that your mill's T-slot was within spec at 14.02mm. At the one end. Is it possible that the slot varied over its length? At other spots it could be 14.000 and still be in spec. Or is there a spec for the variation as well?
Excellent video Stephane! Hope your scraping lessons went well... any future scraping videos? Happy Trails, Doug
Yes - Scraping class was excellent, can only recommend it :)
And yes, scraping content will come :)
Sweet!
What iso reference book is that? Looks handy
Another great video. I'm thinking of hiring you as my personal tutor! :)
Dont do it. I drink horrible amounts of coffee and have a pretty high hourly rate ;)
stefan danke für deine super videos. what kind of machine vise is it. it looks a bit like a QKG50.. you buy or is it self made?
My grinding vices are all bought - Chinese import, but they have proven to be good enough :)
We have clearance Clarence. What's your vector Victor?
Thanks, great quiality video and tools.Might be used as a learning material.
Funny how you mark the workpiece with common marker. I thought Kronzirkel and Stangenzirkel were invented in Deutschland :)
BTW, what end gauge set are you using? We have similar, even to wooden box size&form, ones, left from USSR factory production remnants. They are tools of extra quality with precision down to tenths of micron and require extra care & caution, like chemical cleaning before&after every use, gloves, oiling for storage and so on. Were used usually in most fine machining areas, such as flat and round-grinding, or measurement equip tests.
A bit puzzling to see them used as calipers for mere t-slots width measurement. Or do you have second more exact set and use this one just for work?
About the whole rotary table construction. Awesome, with emphasis on "awe" part. Luft is absolutely intolerable for anything more exact than stone axe grinding. Simple multiplification to table radius or possble workpiece offset in chuck gives horrible numbers.
Even smallest chinese divide head like BS-0 seems better choice. It has cone bearings at every end of hardened steel-made spindle, so there's option to change them for something decent like NSK, thus giving completely different level of equipment rigidity and exactness.
IMHO this table cannot be improved to such level. Best material for sleeve would be bronze, but it requires constant lubrication and will soon lose geometry, distorted with radial direction forces, inevitable in milling operations. Cast iron versus hard steel dosn't require lubrication but i don't think it will stand against pressures, taking into account the forces applied to contact surface. Though maybe i'm wrong, and you'll find a way to succeed.
Thanks again for the vid, it's really helpful!
Hi Stephan,
just wondering if you have found if there is particular ratio between feed rate of the cut and the radius of the cutter that makes for better finishes?
Thanks for sharing your knowledge
Cheers
Raymond
Sorry Stefan spelt your name wrong 😕
How did you manage to remove the worm gear? Mine is stuck on there like crazy and not a single surface to pull on or use a lever.
Again, everything is made of rubber; more so when you work to very tight tolerances. Precision surfaces on big stiff hunks of iron subjected to ordinary clamping forces move like putty when scanned to micron precision..
Stefan, have you considered honing the central bore of the base casting. I don't know the German term fore the process but briefly "honing" involves a semi-consumable rotating mandrel and a tighly located frangible stone expanded radially using a wedge. I refer to the honing system dominated in the US by the Sunnen Corporation but others abound.
A bore can be honed within 1 micron of a true cylinder in the open shop using hand held power equipment. I mention this because you seem to be seeking the ultimate precision possible in your home shop. The equipment is usually on the rental market in most any town with a precision manufacturing base.
Stefan is it possible to lap the morse taper true
@stefan What is the ref manual at 14:34?
Hi Stephan,
have just bought a Vertex branded rotary table identical to yours, I am thinking about doing some upgrading some of the tolerances in my table.
I was wondering if it would be desirable or even possible fit a precision roller bearing or would you still recommend a bronze bush?
Sorry to delve so far back into history I have been cogitating for a couple months regarding the advisability of doing this.
I hope you are able to give a little advice.
Regards Mark. 😅
Hi!
These days I would go all in and put radial/axial needle roller bearings in it - They are cheap and incredible stiff.
Have you used the table already? My recommendation would be to clean it once, lubricate it properly and then just use it for a few months/projects. That will tell you a lot of what you want to change :)
@@StefanGotteswinter thanks for help I’ll do a bit more research into the bearings available in Australia.
I have thinking about this for a while trying to figure out how I can do this upgrade.
Disassembly cleaning and adjusting has definitely on my to do list as there is a slight tight spot.
I really appreciate you taking time to respond to my questions, getting good first hand information and parts can be difficult where I live it’s 3000km from the nearest larger city with specialised suppliers.
This is some next level OCD
Hi Stefan i would like to now more a bout the gas rams on your mill pleas has i have mmd45 please keep up the good work
gtwr.de/shop/pro_optimum_mb4/gassprings.html
If you had the option for 3 slots or 4 slots on an 8" rotary table, what would you get? Thanks
The more, the better ;)
In einem Video des Rundtisches wurden Öler ausgetauscht, weiß jemand die Din oder einen Shop wo man diese art von Ölern kaufen kann?
Danke schon im voraus
Tolerance: if you can measure it, you're out of spec.
If you cant measure it, you need a more accurate indicator ;)
Mitutoyo edge finders are made by Fisher Machine.
Жарко перевода нет на русский а так все профессионально спасибо
Hi Stefan. I am following this with interest as I have one of these rotary tables. As you say it is a nice piece of kit. You usually have very nicely produced video's but in this one there is an annoying booming noise every now and then. Its as if you are kicking the tripod or mic' stand. Or maybe you bought a wireless mic' and have it attached somewhere and you keep catching it on something. Please do not take this comment as negative but maybe it will help to track it down. I do like your projects and have followed all of them with great interest. Thanks for sharing. regards from the UK
Clearance Clarence! Surely clearance is clearance? Stop calling me Shirley!
Hi Stefan very nice series again! why would you scrape the surfaces if the geometry is already very much within specs (just for mein Begriff)
thx
Teun
While they where pretty good square and parallel, they where not perfectly flat (especially the axial bearing surface on the turntable itself, I saw that when I blued it up...will show it in one of the next videos :)
Stefan, I allways thought that Optimum designed the acessories to be compatible with their milling machines.
check for clearance Clarence.
nice work. What is the name of the book with all tolerances? Is it in English?
He was using a German book... but I believe any version of the Machinery's Handbook or equivalent should do. I would guess there should be some kind of native version to mostly any language? ;)
docs.google.com/file/d/0B_redgjtj6SETjZtZXR6VWRHeUk/edit
chapter1-2
You should show flatness of a cast iron before and after machining.
I react allergic to "you should" ;)
Could you? ;)
Haha :D
I could, but I already scraped the surfaces of the table, but when I blued it first time on the surfaceplate, it did not look very warped at all. But that has not always to be the case, I have seen cast iron move like crazy in some instances when machined.
I couldn't agree more! "You should" is constantly used by "UA-cam experts" throughout the video community and is the most rude and aggravating comment imaginable. Please carry on with your superb videos and ignore the occasional moron.
Nice work. The use of ground flat stones is a great added touch. Those stones are very expensive. $500/pair! How long do they last?
Pretty much forever, but with abuse they can get out of flat. But I didnt buy mine, I ground mine out of a normal aluminium oxide stone on the surface grinder :)
is it possible to check the flatness on the stone after being ground? Using a parallel?
Yes, very carefully with a knifeedge straightedge against the light :)
Hola. What book is that?