I cannot express enough how much I (and probably many of us) appreciate that you post your data, your failures, your difficulties - all of it along with your successes and what you learn. Almost no other channel posts such a combination of incredibly useful information. Please keep up the excellent work! You do a valuable service for us all, and we appreciate it immensely!
Thanks. I put down cardboard and left it about 6 months in my side yard. The weeds grew around and through it. I have Bermuda grass and at least one other perennial weed that grows using rhizomes. The section of my yard by the fence had weed cloth double layered by previous owners. Weeds were growing on top of it. Underneath the soil is barren. I have had better results with eucalyptus chips for mulch, which has helped with weeds around my plants. I am going to build raised beds and fill with weed free soil instead. This video confirmed my determination to go that route and to dig underneath those beds to barren soil in an effort to get a handle on weeds rather than relying on no-till, cardboard or weed cloth.
I would use the black plastic covering with the burned planting holes. But plant potatoes instead of broccoli. Then you can harvest potatoes and dig out the weeds in one go. Later I’d cover it for the winter again, don’t bother with cardboard at all. Swap on clear plastic in late winter/very early spring to trick weeds into germinating. Then black plastic for another month or 2. Should be good to plant into around April next year. Good luck brother, you are an inspiration!!!
One of gabe browns tenets of no till is to maintain a living root. He sews annual cover crop seeds right into weedy paddocks and lets them choke out the weeds. He seems to be the most successful of the no till farmers, but lets face it, he is not growing high output vegetable gardens and he takes years to get the soil back into shape. You are not making mistakes, but rather forging new ground with experimentation. If you crack this problem you might change the world I hope you continue
This is a great video, i recently got a small allotment almost completely covered in grass and weeds. I started covering it with cardboard and was planning to add compost and manure on top but this might not be the best option given your experiment. Your experiment is not a failure because it will have helped many others like myself. Thank you for your videos.
It reminds me of the old saying, "there's a reason they call it fishing, not catching", meaning not all experiments work, that's the nature of honest research. A few years ago I started tarping new areas for a year before planting and it's worked very well for me, but it does take time to work, and it needs to include a growing season. I believe you're correct that it was a real mistake to put down the cardboard over the winter, if you had put it down in April and waited until June or so to plant it have allowed the cardboard to maintain its integrity better, but I really think a year of tarping first is the best solution.
Parallels my experience with this method. Here in nz we call it couch but I've had whole beds taken over the year after making a no till bed. From now on I dig once to remove couch kaikuia and California thistles before card boarding mulching and then weed mat
Two suggestions- first solarization. Instead of covering with a dark tarp you cover with an old piece of poly from your tunnel to kill the weeds off with heat. This is best done in the summer, but a couple of weeks in the fall or spring can do it as well. Its possible you could use this during the winter during a clear period to trick the rhizomus weeds into sprouting and then pull it back and let the cold weather do the killing. Secondly the best time to lay down cardboard is right after weeds flower, which leaves their roots with the least energy and without the next generation of seeds being distributed. Using cardboard in the winter to decompose while most plants are dormant is the worst timing.
Interesting idea re the solarization. Are you doing this in Ireland do you mind me asking? I use a black sheet over the winter and early spring and to be honest keeping the plastic in one piece in the winter storms is a difficulty! If I thought I coukd use a transparent sheet in the summer for a shorter period of time and get the same or better result, I'd definitely try it!
yep, solarization with clear poly for a summer did it for me. i put hardwood chips around the border to keep it pinned down. afterwards, 2 layers of cardboard over the top, 6~ inches of compost, then i spread the hardwood chips used to keep the poly down over the top of that. left that for a year before planting veg into it, but now even when disturbed, zero weed growth.
Not sure about solarisation in this climate, we just don't get enough hot sunny days, where some plants will definitely be stressed, but perhaps not so much with the ones with strong root systems. But I haven't really tried it properly, and I wonder if solarisation would be faster than keeping the sun out. Good point about the timing of covering after the flowering.
Here in TN, our hard-pan clay HAS to be tilled to oxygenate the soil, or, I found out, very few of our vegetables will grow. My second Spring, I not only tilled, but added washed sand, vermiculite, perlite, worm and mushroom compost, and tons of composted wood chips. In the fall, I was able to grow cabbage, tomatoes (which was a surprise) peppers, cauliflower, eggplant, spinach, and broccoli. The following Spring I was able to grow corn, peas, stringbeans, cucumbers, radishes, carrots, and several kinds of lettuce... none of which would grow the year before! AND... I FOUND WORMS!!! Seems like EVERY year is an experiment!... and FUN!
I’m in E TN (McMinn Co) and went with raised concrete block beds because of the rocky hard-pan clay. I make my own compost from grass clippings and fall leaves and I use put logs on the bottom of the raised beds (I make them tall) to fill the beds and ensure proper draining.
@@umiluv Wish I had good grass here, we have Bermuda instead... yes, the highly invasive kind. Sad. My small raised block bed has been successful so far except the first year when I used the cheapest Walmart bags of "whatever" I could find. Ever since I switched to Happy Frog, I have no complaints. Wish I could afford to do my entire Garden in HF!!!
For my garden beds (which are in heavy clay) I slap down multiple layers of cardboard, pile on top kitchen scraps that'd typically go into compost, then cover it in a couple of inches of grass clippings (or more if I have it). Due to the scrap rotting downwards, the weeds don't typically survive the process of it rotting into the soil since they have to make it through the cardboard and the rotting mass above it. Haven't had problems with soil quality, but I'm also not a commercial grower.
4:32 I had bindweed growing through 5 layers of cardboard and 18 inches of compost in my brand new raised beds last year, I nearly cried when I saw them coming through. In another area I covered it with black plastic and instead of dying out it creeped under the plastic into the raised beds nearby and now even those raised beds are infested with it. I want to keep it organic but I'm getting really fed up with it...
We have bindweed creeping into our garden from beneath a beech hedge. It's impossible to get rid of, I pull it up every year but it finds its way into the roots of established perennials which makes it almost impossible to combat.
I have had the same experience here in Cheshire, very similar climate and the same perennial weeds. I have perennial weeds in heavy clay, the only successful method after trying EVERYTHING else has been Chicken 'mob grazing' until they've torn the ground to shreds and then a bonfire, raking the still burning coals all over the area and throwing dry straw to keep it going.
Black plastic. I drive a truck overnight so I am gone 10-14 hours/ day. I am too often not motivated to maintain a garden when I get home. Consequently the weeds have taken over. I'm covering everything with black plastic for the year to start over. I'll pull the plastic back to dump more organic matter for sheet composting in certain areas, but no garden this year.
This is the most extensive and honest trial of no dig, and its weed problems, that I've seen. I dug out the dock but had to do daily weed inspections to remove creeping buttercup from eatly January and bindweed more recently but i have a small enough area to deal with ...we will see how problematic growing crops among emerging weeds is this season.. thanks for the trial
That much grass turns away some market gardeners from trying at all. Those rhizomes are tough/expensive to deal with. It's great that this has been explored as no-dig is kind of a religion. Tarp and flame weed seems to be the way for most weeds, but rhizomes just have to be either dug out or depleted by numerous repititions of enticing them to grow and knocking back that growth.
Disappointing results but valuable all the same. Some of these weeds are serious business. I have bindweed in my garden too (Canada, west coast). I also started a new garden area this spring over grass and very established bindweed. Covered with cardboard and topped with topsoil. It’s now 6 weeks latter and the bindweed is coming up all over (I was expecting this) My bindweed is so confident that it also bursts up through pavement in our driveway. Im hoping to reduce this over the next few years. I figure you have to play the long game with bindweed here. Great work 👍
Fair play for going to the effort of doing this! I have tried to do this 3 or 4 times and have always had the same result, meanwhile, Charles Douding seems to be able to use this method very successfully.... I got very frustrated also and was convinced that I was doing something wrong somehow. I feel your pain but really appreciate your trial as I feel a bit vindicated now😅. I use a large black silage plastic sheet covering my entire garden area where my summer crops are grown over the winter . This massively reduces the weed pressure in the spring but the drawback is that I seem to have an inordinate slug problem now. Am just in from doing a 2 hour slug hunt and it's week 3, but there is no end to them! . In my garden where I have my winter or over winter crops ie my garlic, leeks, kale, swede, p s broccilli etc I use mainly the no dig method, using my own compost here and this is getting easier and easier to weed but it has taken 3 years to get to this stage-the quantity of compost is always the issue. I have loads of dung but that causes slug issues and weed issues.. Its hard to win! 😢. Thank you though and Keep up the good work-this is fantastically useful to numerous gardening nuts like myself👍
I've always been a bit confused with Charles' position. At times he seems to say look it's a case of doing it, keeping on top of it in the spirit of Rome wasn't build in a day; then at other times it seems more hey presto no weeds. I personally think you have to dig those perennial weeds out then do the card, then keep doing the card. The no dig seems as much a feeding the soil, soil biology philosophy but then introducing telling people you have to dig at first kind of invalidates it. But I think it's acceptable to say that.
Very interesting experiment! I like thinking about simple ways to make new garden beds and tarping seems to be one of the best ways, especially with this type of grass.
Excluding herbicides, the black mat would be another option but may take longer for those invasive weeds. I do like the temporary black mat with holes, using cardboard around the plants❤
Yes but you do need a double layer as the weeds will grow through and damage this ground map stuff quite quickly. Also I use this black ground material quite a bit but I'd going away from it now as the ends can easily fray in the wind if the sheet isn't secured to the ground well and then this can leave a load of these long thin strands of plastic in the soil that you wil be picking out for years to come😬. I would advise using black plastic completely, though if growing crops through it (as with the cardboard collers), the soil is harder to keep moist in hot weather
@@Willhewellie3514 this looks like commercial matting mat, so wont break down as that cheap stuff gardener’s generally buy, but yes it needs the metal staples to hold it down. It was a extremely weeded area with invasive weeds to be fair, but cardboard should of been thicker or done at a different time as suggested. Round up would of been a good suggestion before cardboard but many don’t want to use a herbicide, a natural way would of been stronger vinegar as a natural solution, but results may have been reduced. Bind weed, and the other grass type he had would of killed the roots and all exposed and underground.
Sounds a lot like what happened in our raised garden beds (A layer of cardboard and a foot of soil). The sour sob here is so persistent and can't be pulled out, but at least it doesn't grow large and is getting out grown by all of the vegetable plants, so it isn't a huge issue.
I like the idea of to till, never tried it yet. I flip the top layer of soil, add some compost and cover with a thick layer of mulch. The following year I scraped away 90 percent of the mulch; good to go. I usually only get weeds near the edge and I have to treat for slugs. Slugs seem to thrive when the beds are new; once fully (3rd year) established slugs are not a issue.
The method i've used to a good amount of success is tarping for a few months during the spring, tilling, and then tarping again for the heat of the summer, then in the fall till once more and bringing in compost for the beds and mulching the pathways, and then tarping again over winter. It's rather slow, and does involve tilling, but its a pretty successful method in my opinion
I’ve seen this recommended as the sure fire way to remove as many weeds from the soil bank as possible. Takes a whole season but it kills off many weeds.
You need heat for that to work 3 bright sunny days would be a rare occurrence in that climate. The rain clouds, carried on warm gulf stream, roll in from the Atlantic ocean almost everyday of the year.
I've had similar experiences with this method and this kind of grass. I'm about to tackle a new area with this experience and my strategy will be to turn this soil and remove as many rhyzomes as possible before covering. Alternatively, multiple layers of cardboard (you can get rolls of stuff called "ramboard") plus newspaper and 8" of compost, minimum.
I had the same results, sadly. The only help for me was black plastic long term (up to 2 years) for perennial weeds. For annual weeds with the amount of seed blown in the only solution is covering the crops with agri-bond (as long as grasshoppers don't chew it full of holes).
Thanks again! I think that the 'no-till' method works well after the ground has been prepared for at least a year. I've had some discussions where gardeners don't want to remove rocks before planting because doing so would disturb the ground. I think that philosophy is going too far. My long term goal is to build good soil even if that means I have to deeply till before my initial planting. Then, I move to no till adding compost and mulch.
I've had the same problems with no till, and also that no matter how much i water the compost just dries up and blows away. This makes it even easier for the weeds to get through.
hope your doing ok Bruce, missing your content and have my patreon euros here for you when you return! take your time if you need, your content would still be my favourite if you only uploaded once a month.
I got my cardboard from a bike shop. Especially in spring, they had a lot of cardboard waste that I could take away for free. And the cardboard packaging was huge compared to normal household cardboard.
Yes. Garage door installation cos, appliance dealers, window cos and so on. Lots of HUGE cardboard out there if you have a truck/trailer. Window cos will sometimes give you the old windows for cold frame builds.
I'm so tired from working to clean up the huge yard in my new house that I read this as No-Till Fall and thought "what... season is it in Ireland?" lol
I combined 2 methods - 2 layers of cardboard and woven weeds fabric. Some parts of garden being left like that for almost a year, other still waiting for removing fabric and establishing beds(been 2 years already 😅). I don't have any issues with weeds in this area ( my garden was neglected for many years before - we had very strong perennial weed, cough grass too).
In the deep South of the United States laying down cardboard is like setting out soft serve ice cream for termites. It rarely lasts a month. I gave up on the cardboard. I've found it's better to kill the grass first and then dump a foot of mulch on top. I still have to pull some grass and weeds. In the first year, I have to dig down to the ground to plant corn or pumpkins or sweet potatoes. The shade from these crops helps reduce weeds and break down the mulch.
Very similar weeds here in south finland. I have had success spreading a 4 inch layer of compost and then using ground cover with planting holes. First year potatoes, second and third year climbing cucumbers or strawberries. After three years it is almost completely weed free and I can establish no dig beds. I am now doing a test with potatoes under black poly through planting holes. Let's see if I can keep it moist enough.
Great video! We're often dealing similar issues. Using strong and larger sheets of cardboard will help a lot. You can get them from bicycle or furniture shops. We have previously used combinations of black plastic, poultry and cardboard also, but the easiest by far has been covering the ground with plastic for 6-12 months if there is strong existing vegetation. If it's just a lawn for example, 2 months in summer and 6 in winter should be sufficient.
Too many CC's do not acknowledge any of the failures, great that you don't. Super helpful. Cardboard as a supressant is totally overrated and is given out to new people as a solution to all their problems
I have established a successful small-scale commercial market garden on similar ground with the same grass weeds. I needed to black tarp a season, allow light in to stimulate residual growth, tarp again a further season, uncover and then cover crop two more seasons, mowing and black tarping to cease each cover crop. After two years the ground was well prepared for growing and now produces exceptional vegetables using no-till. .
Thanks for a very informative video Bruce. It’s a bit of a scunner to see the weeds back so quickly but some valuable lessons have been learned. I’ve had similar problems on my allotment. I think that using fabric with holes in it and cardboard collars is the way to go. Alternatively, cover the space with fabric and grow more tatties in bags for two seasons.
I’m already using the bags of potatoes over fabric in the next section, to clear the weeds out of that. But might try a combination of different approaches in this failed no-till trial, including the cardboard collars and holes in mypex.
@@REDGardens Sorry, I knew from previous videos that you were trying both methods. Maybe I should have said that instead of stating the obvious. Your research however ,shows some of the shortcomings of no-dig but more importantly, how to get around them. Thanks again.
Thank you, i have been trying these no dig/till methods over the last five years with very little sucess. I thought i was doing something wrong. Finally you can do a no dig after first removing any vegetation then practice no dig for 2 years then turn the soil over and start again.
Thank you for this. It's nice to have an honest take of some of the real struggles gardeners can face. Also some good lessons. I have a very invasive grass that is likely the same as yours. I took a full growing season off from my garden and ended up with that grass in ALL my beds AND pathways. I have been hand digging with a pitchfork for a year now, I'm close to done. Pull up the grass as completely as possible, trying not to break it off, then covering the pathways with cardboard and woodchips. In the garden beds (Idid first) I just covered with new soil and immediately broadcasted buckwheat seeds, this year the beds have come back with a bit of the grass that I try to tame immediately. With the woodchips finally covering my paths I hope to spend more time on gardening and less on weeding, but it has been a hell of a battle!! That grass is my sworn enemy!!
Great channel and great data. My go-to method is to take a weed whip to the area to remove all existing vegetation down to the soil level. I add deep compost 3-5 inches - sometimes without a cardboard layer, sometimes with. My preference is no cardboard, because I don't know what's in it. This approach seems to work well enough to remove 75% - 95% of existing vegetation. I then plant-in immediately to further weaken the existing vegetation, and then remove weeds as I hand water. This seems to work over a single growing season.
I've had a similar experience with the emergence of similar perennial weeds. My cover is composted woodchips - pigoen manure. The best approach is to plant a dense cover straight in. You started in winter? So fava/broad bean. Otherwise the mulch is just food for pre-existing planting. Great channel, such an exceptional body of work.
Ny expwrience is that they are necessary for 1-2 years before startingbto grow. I find it effective ... then i use a bit of manure in the hole i want to grow and leave the bark mulch alone around.
Thanks for this vid - it makes me feel better about my constant battle with the grass we call twitch from my neighbour's allotment and my painful anxiety about looking for cardboard all the time. I think you made a good point about covering in winter being less effective than when the little buggers are actively growing.
I use cardboard, leaves then manure in the winter then cover with membrane fabric ready for the spring. It Works very well just some bindweed pops up then i weed it out
Great video, it shows that destroying perennial weeds can be extremely difficult. In my experience, if one doesn’t want to use herbicides then the most effective method of eradicating weeds is to use a thick, heavy tarp and give it time. On my current allotment I had a similar problem. I used three layers of cardboard, a 6inch layer of composted manure followed by a thick tarp. I left it for a year.
Tarp works. Specially a impermeable tarp. Without light and water most things will die... But tarp is like a pause. After you remove the tarp and start watering everything starts again...one just hope to resart in a better position.
Appreciate your lessons learned. In the U.S. we have different weeds but same problem. For organie I agree with the tarp/solariztion approach. Good luck!
I would have done it the same way initially, cardboard and a nice layer of compost or something. When it failed, I would've got the shits and taken the nuclear option. Till it. Wait three days. Till it again. Spray a 1:1:1:5 mixture of roundup, paraquat, diquat and water. Wait five more days, till it again. Spray it again, then add the mulch layer back on thicker than ever and cover the whole thing with a big black tarp for two years. If I can't have it, no shitty little grass jerk is going to have it either. As I reread the above, I realise I may have a problem with control.
I've had good results by covering an area with a thick layer of grass cuttings before laying down a couple of layers of cardboard. My logic was that the cardboard and grass would rot together providing both nitrogen and carbon. I think in truth the grass as it rotted helped rot the top growth of the weeds. I did this in spring when I was getting a lot of grass cuttings, so the time of year may have also played a factor that I hadn't considered until watching what you had to say. Thanks for the great content and making me think.
For me, sheet mulching with cardboard to get rid of Bermuda grass, the cardboard needs to be saturated with water, and laid out a few layers thick. Then the compost is laid down, watered, and then a mulch over the top, and watered again. I've had pretty good success with this, but I don't have Scotch grass either. We have native grasses that have have 6 foot deep roots or more in heavy clay soil where I'm at. This allows for an annual burn off which is one of the natural ways a grassland gets rid of overgrowth.
We deal with Bermuda grass which just pokes holes up through any landscape fabric or cardboard. I have heard of success using old carpet. Sadly glyphosate and a deep metal edging is what it took to get the grass out and keep it out.
I feel your disappointment, Bruce. When I started my growing space, it crossed my mind to use cardboard and compost but the contractor said the ground needed to be leveled off and elected to remove the lawn using a sod cutter. I suppose that was still ‘no till’ as we didn’t flip the soil. Knowing what you are going through, I think it was a right decision. No till is hard for large scale and I don’t use cardboard much because I don’t really know their safety either.
In central Texas I established a new small patch that was just under 400 square feet, and where Bermuda grass was growing well. The digging first worked for me. I went over the area with a 4 tine cultivator after, pulling through the soil and looking for rhizomes. That was fairly effective. There were 4 to 6 spots with deeper roots that I'd dig in the months and years to follow. I didn't win 100%, but it was a worthwhile garden patch to me. I didn't till in the following 2 years.
Keep posting mate your saving me so much hassle I pretty much have all the exact same problems. Rats and the exact same perennial weeds I’m from westyorkshire
I agree with your assessment. I've used compost over cardboard several times and found that timing on rhe cardboard is important. The cardboard should be put down when the perennial plants are starting to become active. If the cardboard is laid down too early, it will decompose before it can do its job on weed supression. Using proper timing, this means that the beds will not be ready until later in the season. My problem is with bermuda grass, but even with bermuda grass this this method can be successful with proper timing.
we have had the same issues with scutch grass in areas - I've found the approach that works is to build the bed, not in autumn as usually advised, but in spring, just when you need it. Then transplant salads immediately In to it. the roots of the transplants and the shade from the leaves help a lot. Rhizomous grasses can live for two years while covered, so covering with a tarp for a week or two will do literally nothing.
I admire your ability to find a way to grow knowledge from this failure. I'm already tarping an area so will take this info into consideration when I actually build the bed. #GrassIsTheWorst
The compost you used looked really light and fluffy. If you can get heavier compost (we used 5 to 6 inches of a 50/50 mushroom and green waste compost that had quite a bit of small wood chunks still in it on our original beds which really smothered and excluded light) I think it would work a lot better for you over top of the cardboard. This is expensive though so you may want to double dig or till in year one to get started while you're making home made compost to reduce how much you need to purchase to convert to no-till (lately to avoid costs I've been using 6 inches of wood chip I can obtain for free over the cut and flipped over sod for six to nine months weeding as needed and not planting anything during this time before putting down home made compost to make new beds and plant into). Also I would recommend avoiding the straw in year one to minimize the weed pressure while the perennials are dying underneath and will likely still poke through in places and need to be pulled. Annual weed seeds will still blow in and need dealt with but adding straw is likely introducing a ton more than you would otherwise have. Lastly, I would do some research but I think you need to be careful tarping for extended periods of time as it can make your soil anaerobic and kill the microorganisms that you need for thriving soil. I think you only want to tarp for a few weeks to a couple months max. I think Jesse Frost of No-Till Growers talks about this in one of his UA-cam videos you can find on his channel. (we've had success with solarization using 6 mil black plastic, but again keeping the timeframe short for a few weeks to two months).
Aw Bruce, I feel for you! This was certainly not the result you hoped for after all that work 🙁 and I had been looking forward to this trial! But a result is a result I suppose. I believe Jesse from No-Till Growers breaks the ground up first with a tiller/cultivator, the philosophy being that the soil ecology is already out of whack so you don't lose much. Then he covers it up and no more digging/tilling from that point onwards. No idea if that would make a difference, but it stands to reason that broken up rhizomes have less energy than one big one.
@@lksf9820 I think the context for that was if you were to inherit a plot which had bad compaction from previous heavy tractors etc over the top of it, or had been tilled frequently up to that point. In which case tilling it once more isn't going to do much more harm. Not sure it applies here.
I’d use a perimeter vertical barrier. Overturn the turf and take out (compost) most plant material. THEN only cardboard and planting. Heavy planting to smother roots. Heavy mulch
I feel for you! I have all the same weeds on my allotment, plus brambles. I think a crucial factor may have been the time of year you laid the cardboard and soil down (autumn). I did the same method, except in spring (not because I'm clever, because it took so long to get enough cardboard!) and have had good success. That was after tarping the area for winter with solid black plastic (not the woven type), and digging out most of the brambles. After laying cardboard and soil, I popped in veg transplants basically straight away, cutting a little hole in the carboard for the roots. The transplants were only ever watered directly at their roots, keeping the cardboard layer dryer and more impermeable for longer. Hope this helps someone!
That is useful, I think. The key to making the method work is to keep the cardboard from decomposing or getting too wet for as long as possible, which is hard enough in a wet climate! A hole for the transplants is a good option.
Charles says it can take 2 years to fully eradicate bindweed, i started my allotment in December and its been tough staying on top of the weeds but i will continue to persevere
I've never found a satisfactory, definite kind of time period suggested. I think I heard him say 2 years too on one video. Before I'd ever heard "no dig" when I was just stuck with a shit heap of an allotment. There was like and old shed, no light, planks etc, I could see the mare's tail, like burnt but son of a bitch if I didn't see bleached areas that then grow back. That's like years. I think bindweed can live on and on too.
I use layers of cardboard and an 8" thick cover of wood chips to suffocate poison ivy. Additionally, for my no till beds, I have replicated this process and added compost on top. Process takes a couple years for the mycelium to do its thing but once the network is established, you will be very happy with your results.
So are these weeds like the scutch grass not an issue in beds that you till? Is it the tilling that keeps the weeds at bay normally or do you have to apply herbicide? Great informative experimental videos you create here.
To start off my no dig garden i used the technique u use in the simple garden. Plant pumpkins but then cover the ground with cardboard. Leaving the cardboard uncoverd it lasts a lot longer. Then the next year u can continue with the no dig approach. But unfortunately this takes 2 season
That's great info, I believe main issue was making it too early, is way more effective if the cover to kill is not durment, as they specially store energy before going off for any possible thing that might happen on winter,
For me, covering the ground for an entire year has been the only effective method at removing scutch grass, creeping buttercup and nettle. I also set up barriers around the perimeter of the garden so that it is not re-invaded. I still get the occasional buried plant that revives, but largely this leaves the soil with only weed seeds to deal with the following year. A long process but necessary in my soil. County Wicklow
@@FireflyOnTheMoonYou're probably right but I think of bindweed in a different category, I know I can't really kill it off so I just stay on top of the weeding. I don't find it as difficult as the others since repeated simple weeding stops it from taking over.
Thanks for yet another thoughtfully made and informative video! I too am curious about how the timing of the application affects the outcome of this method. In my climate (Pacific Northwest, USA) I have found that tarping in the spring is far more affective than in other times of the year. In the dry heat of our summer and the cold damp of our winter our grasses and weeds seem to go dormant, and after a few months under a tarp they still retain a lot of vigor. Tarping in the spring seems to coincide with their natural tendency to grow and they deplete themselves much more throughly. I wonder if you shifted the timing of your cardboard and mulch application to the spring if you would eliminate more of the weeds before the cardboard breaks down. I also think your ideas for weakening the weeds first are very practical. It’s frustrating to see that some of the promises of no dig gardening don’t survive the real world, but having a realistic set of expectations will always be more important. Thanks again for your hard work!
In the beginning of April in 2020, during covid lockdown, I created couple of new beds without digging the ground first. My approach was following: - using a stronger fork, I loosened *very* compacted soil without turning it (just fork into the ground and moving it back and forth, and like this after every 10 cm or so along the whole bed area) - layer of relatively fresh horse manure with hay on ground on top of the grass from last year (all those nice things you have, except thistles) - generally everywhere two layers of cardboard, taking care that any edge would have a decent overlap, 30+ cm at least - compost on top of the cardboard layers as growing medium - about 1 year of daily newspapers folded into typical ~A4 sized format (as they arrive into post boxes) around the bed (having some overlap with cardboard and about half the newspaper page width overlap between individual day newspapers... Result was such, that during first year, barely anything come through those barriers. I suppose two layers of cardboard + fresh manure were not the best environment for those grasses. Though, ground elders (Aegopodium podagraria) which we have en masse and also, later in the summer, bindweeds started to migrate into beds from edges during the summer. This year (3 years from start, without any digging), ground elders come out from everywhere, but because soil has very good structure, pulling them out with long pieces of roots is quite easy. During previous year (3-rd summer of beds), bindweeds came out quite often, but we just pulled them out with as much root as possible and by the end of summer, their new shoots were pretty weak. Of course those beds were just small ones (two beds, 3x1 meters each) and such weeding was feasible.
Your experience matches mine almost exactly. The single layer of cardboard with mulch on top seems to just be a good way to select for rhizomatous weeds. In my case, Canadian Thistle. You just end up eliminating all the annual weeds that were competing with it before you added the mulch. The best way I've found recently to clear new beds is to lay down an old swatch of indoor/outdoor carpet that we ripped out of our porch a few years ago, leave it on for an entire growing season, and plant in it the year after. My concern with this is who knows what is leeching out of that carpet in the meantime. Will be interested to see whether and how you pivot from here in those spaces.
I've used sheet metal a lot for smothering weeds, and have even left it in place for 2 years. It does a great job at killing off most of the weeds, but it never gets 100%. I always have to come back and dig out the more stubborn weeds, so to save time, I just leave it in place for 2 weeks to 2 months (3 days is long enough to kill a lot of lawn grasses) and dig from there. As long as the bed gets mulched, it doesn't take too much weeding to get them cleaned up, but you have to be persistent until they're under control. Starting a no-till garden without digging out the tougher weeds can be difficult.
I cannot express enough how much I (and probably many of us) appreciate that you post your data, your failures, your difficulties - all of it along with your successes and what you learn. Almost no other channel posts such a combination of incredibly useful information. Please keep up the excellent work! You do a valuable service for us all, and we appreciate it immensely!
That you. Your comment means a lot!
Agreed 👍
Thanks. I put down cardboard and left it about 6 months in my side yard. The weeds grew around and through it. I have Bermuda grass and at least one other perennial weed that grows using rhizomes. The section of my yard by the fence had weed cloth double layered by previous owners. Weeds were growing on top of it. Underneath the soil is barren. I have had better results with eucalyptus chips for mulch, which has helped with weeds around my plants. I am going to build raised beds and fill with weed free soil instead. This video confirmed my determination to go that route and to dig underneath those beds to barren soil in an effort to get a handle on weeds rather than relying on no-till, cardboard or weed cloth.
This is why leaves are a godsend here in Michigan. They do a great job of spot mulching
"We learn more from failure than success." This is a really helpful video. Thanks Bruce.
Glad it was helpful!
I would use the black plastic covering with the burned planting holes. But plant potatoes instead of broccoli. Then you can harvest potatoes and dig out the weeds in one go. Later I’d cover it for the winter again, don’t bother with cardboard at all. Swap on clear plastic in late winter/very early spring to trick weeds into germinating. Then black plastic for another month or 2. Should be good to plant into around April next year. Good luck brother, you are an inspiration!!!
Wish there was a way to do it without plastic. You know microplastics are terrible.
@@BlackJesus8463 Metal sheets are technically an option, but prohibitively expensive.
@@acctsys I was thinking about a natural fiber like hemp or something like that.
One of gabe browns tenets of no till is to maintain a living root. He sews annual cover crop seeds right into weedy paddocks and lets them choke out the weeds. He seems to be the most successful of the no till farmers, but lets face it, he is not growing high output vegetable gardens and he takes years to get the soil back into shape.
You are not making mistakes, but rather forging new ground with experimentation. If you crack this problem you might change the world
I hope you continue
I've been tuning into your videos for 4+ years. Always presented with great detail but delivered in the most ordinary way.
Top gardening UA-camr
⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐
Wow, thanks!
This is a great video, i recently got a small allotment almost completely covered in grass and weeds. I started covering it with cardboard and was planning to add compost and manure on top but this might not be the best option given your experiment. Your experiment is not a failure because it will have helped many others like myself. Thank you for your videos.
It reminds me of the old saying, "there's a reason they call it fishing, not catching", meaning not all experiments work, that's the nature of honest research. A few years ago I started tarping new areas for a year before planting and it's worked very well for me, but it does take time to work, and it needs to include a growing season. I believe you're correct that it was a real mistake to put down the cardboard over the winter, if you had put it down in April and waited until June or so to plant it have allowed the cardboard to maintain its integrity better, but I really think a year of tarping first is the best solution.
I have good results just doing it over winter. It helps a lot!
2:09 ouch
Parallels my experience with this method. Here in nz we call it couch but I've had whole beds taken over the year after making a no till bed. From now on I dig once to remove couch kaikuia and California thistles before card boarding mulching and then weed mat
Two suggestions- first solarization. Instead of covering with a dark tarp you cover with an old piece of poly from your tunnel to kill the weeds off with heat. This is best done in the summer, but a couple of weeks in the fall or spring can do it as well. Its possible you could use this during the winter during a clear period to trick the rhizomus weeds into sprouting and then pull it back and let the cold weather do the killing.
Secondly the best time to lay down cardboard is right after weeds flower, which leaves their roots with the least energy and without the next generation of seeds being distributed. Using cardboard in the winter to decompose while most plants are dormant is the worst timing.
Interesting idea re the solarization. Are you doing this in Ireland do you mind me asking? I use a black sheet over the winter and early spring and to be honest keeping the plastic in one piece in the winter storms is a difficulty! If I thought I coukd use a transparent sheet in the summer for a shorter period of time and get the same or better result, I'd definitely try it!
yep, solarization with clear poly for a summer did it for me. i put hardwood chips around the border to keep it pinned down. afterwards, 2 layers of cardboard over the top, 6~ inches of compost, then i spread the hardwood chips used to keep the poly down over the top of that. left that for a year before planting veg into it, but now even when disturbed, zero weed growth.
I'm not sure how well solarization would work in a maritime climate?
Is there any research on impact of solarization on beneficial microbes?
Not sure about solarisation in this climate, we just don't get enough hot sunny days, where some plants will definitely be stressed, but perhaps not so much with the ones with strong root systems. But I haven't really tried it properly, and I wonder if solarisation would be faster than keeping the sun out. Good point about the timing of covering after the flowering.
Here in TN, our hard-pan clay HAS to be tilled to oxygenate the soil, or, I found out, very few of our vegetables will grow. My second Spring, I not only tilled, but added washed sand, vermiculite, perlite, worm and mushroom compost, and tons of composted wood chips. In the fall, I was able to grow cabbage, tomatoes (which was a surprise) peppers, cauliflower, eggplant, spinach, and broccoli. The following Spring I was able to grow corn, peas, stringbeans, cucumbers, radishes, carrots, and several kinds of lettuce... none of which would grow the year before! AND... I FOUND WORMS!!! Seems like EVERY year is an experiment!... and FUN!
I’m in E TN (McMinn Co) and went with raised concrete block beds because of the rocky hard-pan clay. I make my own compost from grass clippings and fall leaves and I use put logs on the bottom of the raised beds (I make them tall) to fill the beds and ensure proper draining.
@@umiluv Wish I had good grass here, we have Bermuda instead... yes, the highly invasive kind. Sad. My small raised block bed has been successful so far except the first year when I used the cheapest Walmart bags of "whatever" I could find. Ever since I switched to Happy Frog, I have no complaints. Wish I could afford to do my entire Garden in HF!!!
For my garden beds (which are in heavy clay) I slap down multiple layers of cardboard, pile on top kitchen scraps that'd typically go into compost, then cover it in a couple of inches of grass clippings (or more if I have it). Due to the scrap rotting downwards, the weeds don't typically survive the process of it rotting into the soil since they have to make it through the cardboard and the rotting mass above it. Haven't had problems with soil quality, but I'm also not a commercial grower.
4:32 I had bindweed growing through 5 layers of cardboard and 18 inches of compost in my brand new raised beds last year, I nearly cried when I saw them coming through. In another area I covered it with black plastic and instead of dying out it creeped under the plastic into the raised beds nearby and now even those raised beds are infested with it. I want to keep it organic but I'm getting really fed up with it...
I’ve got some very established bindweed too. You’re not alone 😢. We have to be persistent!
Have you tried a blowtorch?
We have bindweed creeping into our garden from beneath a beech hedge. It's impossible to get rid of, I pull it up every year but it finds its way into the roots of established perennials which makes it almost impossible to combat.
@@BlackJesus8463 It doesn't work, it only burns the top growth off.
@@lksf9820 That's the dumbest thing you could've said. It's like saying pulling weeds doesn't work because they grow back.
This is a great lesson for beginners, good gardens don't come without good planning and plenty of work
I have had the same experience here in Cheshire, very similar climate and the same perennial weeds. I have perennial weeds in heavy clay, the only successful method after trying EVERYTHING else has been Chicken 'mob grazing' until they've torn the ground to shreds and then a bonfire, raking the still burning coals all over the area and throwing dry straw to keep it going.
Interesting approach!
Thank you for all your work. A valuable trial.
Black plastic. I drive a truck overnight so I am gone 10-14 hours/ day. I am too often not motivated to maintain a garden when I get home. Consequently the weeds have taken over. I'm covering everything with black plastic for the year to start over.
I'll pull the plastic back to dump more organic matter for sheet composting in certain areas, but no garden this year.
This is very instructive and useful, thanks for all your work
This is the most extensive and honest trial of no dig, and its weed problems, that I've seen. I dug out the dock but had to do daily weed inspections to remove creeping buttercup from eatly January and bindweed more recently but i have a small enough area to deal with ...we will see how problematic growing crops among emerging weeds is this season.. thanks for the trial
Thanks! Glad you appreciate our efforts!
This is the single most important piece of advice I have ever given in my professional life, and it never grows old: occultate with impermeable tarp.
aww what an adorable birb
That much grass turns away some market gardeners from trying at all. Those rhizomes are tough/expensive to deal with.
It's great that this has been explored as no-dig is kind of a religion. Tarp and flame weed seems to be the way for most weeds, but rhizomes just have to be either dug out or depleted by numerous repititions of enticing them to grow and knocking back that growth.
Disappointing results but valuable all the same. Some of these weeds are serious business.
I have bindweed in my garden too (Canada, west coast). I also started a new garden area this spring over grass and very established bindweed. Covered with cardboard and topped with topsoil. It’s now 6 weeks latter and the bindweed is coming up all over (I was expecting this) My bindweed is so confident that it also bursts up through pavement in our driveway. Im hoping to reduce this over the next few years. I figure you have to play the long game with bindweed here.
Great work 👍
I really appreciate that you always share the negative findings too
Fair play for going to the effort of doing this! I have tried to do this 3 or 4 times and have always had the same result, meanwhile, Charles Douding seems to be able to use this method very successfully.... I got very frustrated also and was convinced that I was doing something wrong somehow. I feel your pain but really appreciate your trial as I feel a bit vindicated now😅. I use a large black silage plastic sheet covering my entire garden area where my summer crops are grown over the winter . This massively reduces the weed pressure in the spring but the drawback is that I seem to have an inordinate slug problem now. Am just in from doing a 2 hour slug hunt and it's week 3, but there is no end to them! . In my garden where I have my winter or over winter crops ie my garlic, leeks, kale, swede, p s broccilli etc I use mainly the no dig method, using my own compost here and this is getting easier and easier to weed but it has taken 3 years to get to this stage-the quantity of compost is always the issue. I have loads of dung but that causes slug issues and weed issues.. Its hard to win! 😢. Thank you though and Keep up the good work-this is fantastically useful to numerous gardening nuts like myself👍
You need to discover Nematodes, although if you're in the UK there have been none available so far this year due to a mess up.
@@lksf9820 They have never worked for me. For five years I followed the instructions to the letter.
I've always been a bit confused with Charles' position. At times he seems to say look it's a case of doing it, keeping on top of it in the spirit of Rome wasn't build in a day; then at other times it seems more hey presto no weeds. I personally think you have to dig those perennial weeds out then do the card, then keep doing the card. The no dig seems as much a feeding the soil, soil biology philosophy but then introducing telling people you have to dig at first kind of invalidates it. But I think it's acceptable to say that.
Very interesting experiment! I like thinking about simple ways to make new garden beds and tarping seems to be one of the best ways, especially with this type of grass.
Excluding herbicides, the black mat would be another option but may take longer for those invasive weeds.
I do like the temporary black mat with holes, using cardboard around the plants❤
Yes but you do need a double layer as the weeds will grow through and damage this ground map stuff quite quickly. Also I use this black ground material quite a bit but I'd going away from it now as the ends can easily fray in the wind if the sheet isn't secured to the ground well and then this can leave a load of these long thin strands of plastic in the soil that you wil be picking out for years to come😬. I would advise using black plastic completely, though if growing crops through it (as with the cardboard collers), the soil is harder to keep moist in hot weather
@@Willhewellie3514 this looks like commercial matting mat, so wont break down as that cheap stuff gardener’s generally buy, but yes it needs the metal staples to hold it down.
It was a extremely weeded area with invasive weeds to be fair, but cardboard should of been thicker or done at a different time as suggested.
Round up would of been a good suggestion before cardboard but many don’t want to use a herbicide, a natural way would of been stronger vinegar as a natural solution, but results may have been reduced.
Bind weed, and the other grass type he had would of killed the roots and all exposed and underground.
Good luck with this year. Hope to see some success in your future.
Sounds a lot like what happened in our raised garden beds (A layer of cardboard and a foot of soil). The sour sob here is so persistent and can't be pulled out, but at least it doesn't grow large and is getting out grown by all of the vegetable plants, so it isn't a huge issue.
I like the idea of to till, never tried it yet. I flip the top layer of soil, add some compost and cover with a thick layer of mulch. The following year I scraped away 90 percent of the mulch; good to go. I usually only get weeds near the edge and I have to treat for slugs. Slugs seem to thrive when the beds are new; once fully (3rd year) established slugs are not a issue.
Very interesting. Goes to show that the no-till method varies. I didn't have any issues in my space. But, I love to see your experiment results.
The method i've used to a good amount of success is tarping for a few months during the spring, tilling, and then tarping again for the heat of the summer, then in the fall till once more and bringing in compost for the beds and mulching the pathways, and then tarping again over winter. It's rather slow, and does involve tilling, but its a pretty successful method in my opinion
I’ve seen this recommended as the sure fire way to remove as many weeds from the soil bank as possible. Takes a whole season but it kills off many weeds.
Have you considered solarizing as opposed to occultation? Using a clear tarp to focus sun rays but trap the heat in
You need heat for that to work 3 bright sunny days would be a rare occurrence in that climate. The rain clouds, carried on warm gulf stream, roll in from the Atlantic ocean almost everyday of the year.
I've had similar experiences with this method and this kind of grass. I'm about to tackle a new area with this experience and my strategy will be to turn this soil and remove as many rhyzomes as possible before covering. Alternatively, multiple layers of cardboard (you can get rolls of stuff called "ramboard") plus newspaper and 8" of compost, minimum.
I had the same results, sadly. The only help for me was black plastic long term (up to 2 years) for perennial weeds. For annual weeds with the amount of seed blown in the only solution is covering the crops with agri-bond (as long as grasshoppers don't chew it full of holes).
What is agri-bond? Not even Google recognises it.
@@lksf9820 Row cover like they use for frost protection.
Always plastic when will people learn
Thank's Ben for sharing!
Thanks again! I think that the 'no-till' method works well after the ground has been prepared for at least a year. I've had some discussions where gardeners don't want to remove rocks before planting because doing so would disturb the ground. I think that philosophy is going too far. My long term goal is to build good soil even if that means I have to deeply till before my initial planting. Then, I move to no till adding compost and mulch.
Thank you for sharing the failures along with your successes. You did grow a beautiful crop of scutch grass…😅
Isn’t it beautiful though!
I've had the same problems with no till, and also that no matter how much i water the compost just dries up and blows away. This makes it even easier for the weeds to get through.
hope your doing ok Bruce, missing your content and have my patreon euros here for you when you return! take your time if you need, your content would still be my favourite if you only uploaded once a month.
I got my cardboard from a bike shop. Especially in spring, they had a lot of cardboard waste that I could take away for free. And the cardboard packaging was huge compared to normal household cardboard.
Yes. Garage door installation cos, appliance dealers, window cos and so on. Lots of HUGE cardboard out there if you have a truck/trailer. Window cos will sometimes give you the old windows for cold frame builds.
I'm so tired from working to clean up the huge yard in my new house that I read this as No-Till Fall and thought "what... season is it in Ireland?" lol
I combined 2 methods - 2 layers of cardboard and woven weeds fabric. Some parts of garden being left like that for almost a year, other still waiting for removing fabric and establishing beds(been 2 years already 😅). I don't have any issues with weeds in this area ( my garden was neglected for many years before - we had very strong perennial weed, cough grass too).
In the deep South of the United States laying down cardboard is like setting out soft serve ice cream for termites. It rarely lasts a month. I gave up on the cardboard. I've found it's better to kill the grass first and then dump a foot of mulch on top. I still have to pull some grass and weeds. In the first year, I have to dig down to the ground to plant corn or pumpkins or sweet potatoes. The shade from these crops helps reduce weeds and break down the mulch.
Nothing that you do is a mistake. It's just a step forward to understand the environment. Ty for the video.
True, but a costly lesson.
I've had similar results. My solution has been mulching and periodically remulching with leaf litter, compost, and wood chip. Good video.
Remulching seems to be a good option.
Very similar weeds here in south finland. I have had success spreading a 4 inch layer of compost and then using ground cover with planting holes. First year potatoes, second and third year climbing cucumbers or strawberries. After three years it is almost completely weed free and I can establish no dig beds.
I am now doing a test with potatoes under black poly through planting holes. Let's see if I can keep it moist enough.
Great video! We're often dealing similar issues. Using strong and larger sheets of cardboard will help a lot. You can get them from bicycle or furniture shops. We have previously used combinations of black plastic, poultry and cardboard also, but the easiest by far has been covering the ground with plastic for 6-12 months if there is strong existing vegetation. If it's just a lawn for example, 2 months in summer and 6 in winter should be sufficient.
Too many CC's do not acknowledge any of the failures, great that you don't. Super helpful. Cardboard as a supressant is totally overrated and is given out to new people as a solution to all their problems
I have established a successful small-scale commercial market garden on similar ground with the same grass weeds. I needed to black tarp a season, allow light in to stimulate residual growth, tarp again a further season, uncover and then cover crop two more seasons, mowing and black tarping to cease each cover crop. After two years the ground was well prepared for growing and now produces exceptional vegetables using no-till.
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Thanks for a very informative video Bruce.
It’s a bit of a scunner to see the weeds back so quickly but some valuable lessons have been learned.
I’ve had similar problems on my allotment.
I think that using fabric with holes in it and cardboard collars is the way to go.
Alternatively, cover the space with fabric and grow more tatties in bags for two seasons.
I’m already using the bags of potatoes over fabric in the next section, to clear the weeds out of that. But might try a combination of different approaches in this failed no-till trial, including the cardboard collars and holes in mypex.
@@REDGardens Sorry, I knew from previous videos that you were trying both methods.
Maybe I should have said that instead of stating the obvious. Your research however ,shows some of the shortcomings of no-dig but more importantly, how to get around them. Thanks again.
Thank you, i have been trying these no dig/till methods over the last five years with very little sucess. I thought i was doing something wrong. Finally you can do a no dig after first removing any vegetation then practice no dig for 2 years then turn the soil over and start again.
I think there are lots of cases where initial digging or occasional digging can be very beneficial.
Thank you for this. It's nice to have an honest take of some of the real struggles gardeners can face. Also some good lessons. I have a very invasive grass that is likely the same as yours. I took a full growing season off from my garden and ended up with that grass in ALL my beds AND pathways. I have been hand digging with a pitchfork for a year now, I'm close to done. Pull up the grass as completely as possible, trying not to break it off, then covering the pathways with cardboard and woodchips. In the garden beds (Idid first) I just covered with new soil and immediately broadcasted buckwheat seeds, this year the beds have come back with a bit of the grass that I try to tame immediately. With the woodchips finally covering my paths I hope to spend more time on gardening and less on weeding, but it has been a hell of a battle!! That grass is my sworn enemy!!
Great channel and great data. My go-to method is to take a weed whip to the area to remove all existing vegetation down to the soil level. I add deep compost 3-5 inches - sometimes without a cardboard layer, sometimes with. My preference is no cardboard, because I don't know what's in it. This approach seems to work well enough to remove 75% - 95% of existing vegetation. I then plant-in immediately to further weaken the existing vegetation, and then remove weeds as I hand water. This seems to work over a single growing season.
I've had a similar experience with the emergence of similar perennial weeds. My cover is composted woodchips - pigoen manure. The best approach is to plant a dense cover straight in. You started in winter? So fava/broad bean. Otherwise the mulch is just food for pre-existing planting.
Great channel, such an exceptional body of work.
i feel like a part of no till growing i see is using wood chips to cover the surrounding area, maybe they would help
Ny expwrience is that they are necessary for 1-2 years before startingbto grow. I find it effective ... then i use a bit of manure in the hole i want to grow and leave the bark mulch alone around.
Thanks for this vid - it makes me feel better about my constant battle with the grass we call twitch from my neighbour's allotment and my painful anxiety about looking for cardboard all the time. I think you made a good point about covering in winter being less effective than when the little buggers are actively growing.
Glad your testing these textbook methods, "if it sounds to good...".
Currently trying to control some ground elder.
I use cardboard, leaves then manure in the winter then cover with membrane fabric ready for the spring. It Works very well just some bindweed pops up then i weed it out
Great video, it shows that destroying perennial weeds can be extremely difficult. In my experience, if one doesn’t want to use herbicides then the most effective method of eradicating weeds is to use a thick, heavy tarp and give it time. On my current allotment I had a similar problem. I used three layers of cardboard, a 6inch layer of composted manure followed by a thick tarp. I left it for a year.
Thanks. Yeah, tarp and time work.
Tarp works. Specially a impermeable tarp. Without light and water most things will die...
But tarp is like a pause. After you remove the tarp and start watering everything starts again...one just hope to resart in a better position.
No dig isn't the answer to everything and if you add nutritious soil to weeds you have given them a huge boost.
Appreciate your lessons learned. In the U.S. we have different weeds but same problem. For organie I agree with the tarp/solariztion approach. Good luck!
I would have done it the same way initially, cardboard and a nice layer of compost or something. When it failed, I would've got the shits and taken the nuclear option. Till it. Wait three days. Till it again. Spray a 1:1:1:5 mixture of roundup, paraquat, diquat and water. Wait five more days, till it again. Spray it again, then add the mulch layer back on thicker than ever and cover the whole thing with a big black tarp for two years. If I can't have it, no shitty little grass jerk is going to have it either.
As I reread the above, I realise I may have a problem with control.
I've had good results by covering an area with a thick layer of grass cuttings before laying down a couple of layers of cardboard.
My logic was that the cardboard and grass would rot together providing both nitrogen and carbon. I think in truth the grass as it rotted helped rot the top growth of the weeds. I did this in spring when I was getting a lot of grass cuttings, so the time of year may have also played a factor that I hadn't considered until watching what you had to say.
Thanks for the great content and making me think.
Interesting idea.
For me, sheet mulching with cardboard to get rid of Bermuda grass, the cardboard needs to be saturated with water, and laid out a few layers thick. Then the compost is laid down, watered, and then a mulch over the top, and watered again. I've had pretty good success with this, but I don't have Scotch grass either. We have native grasses that have have 6 foot deep roots or more in heavy clay soil where I'm at. This allows for an annual burn off which is one of the natural ways a grassland gets rid of overgrowth.
Excellent video lot learns
We deal with Bermuda grass which just pokes holes up through any landscape fabric or cardboard. I have heard of success using old carpet. Sadly glyphosate and a deep metal edging is what it took to get the grass out and keep it out.
I have heard that is a tough weed to get rid of!
A really interesting video on gardening in the real world.
Thanks!
Really good info.
I feel your disappointment, Bruce. When I started my growing space, it crossed my mind to use cardboard and compost but the contractor said the ground needed to be leveled off and elected to remove the lawn using a sod cutter. I suppose that was still ‘no till’ as we didn’t flip the soil. Knowing what you are going through, I think it was a right decision. No till is hard for large scale and I don’t use cardboard much because I don’t really know their safety either.
In central Texas I established a new small patch that was just under 400 square feet, and where Bermuda grass was growing well.
The digging first worked for me. I went over the area with a 4 tine cultivator after, pulling through the soil and looking for rhizomes.
That was fairly effective. There were 4 to 6 spots with deeper roots that I'd dig in the months and years to follow. I didn't win 100%, but it was a worthwhile garden patch to me. I didn't till in the following 2 years.
Sounds like a good method. Dig first and then deal with what survives.
@@REDGardens Exactly, and I think you showed that option. Terrific vid!
Keep posting mate your saving me so much hassle I pretty much have all the exact same problems. Rats and the exact same perennial weeds I’m from westyorkshire
Thanks! Glad you are getting a lot out of my videos. Apologies for not uploading very frequently lately.
I agree with your assessment. I've used compost over cardboard several times and found that timing on rhe cardboard is important. The cardboard should be put down when the perennial plants are starting to become active. If the cardboard is laid down too early, it will decompose before it can do its job on weed supression. Using proper timing, this means that the beds will not be ready until later in the season. My problem is with bermuda grass, but even with bermuda grass this this method can be successful with proper timing.
The timing thing makes sense now, but really didn’t think about it before.
Again, a big thanks for doing these trials! 👌😊
What's going on, you haven't uploaded in a while?
we have had the same issues with scutch grass in areas - I've found the approach that works is to build the bed, not in autumn as usually advised, but in spring, just when you need it. Then transplant salads immediately In to it. the roots of the transplants and the shade from the leaves help a lot. Rhizomous grasses can live for two years while covered, so covering with a tarp for a week or two will do literally nothing.
I admire your ability to find a way to grow knowledge from this failure.
I'm already tarping an area so will take this info into consideration when I actually build the bed. #GrassIsTheWorst
The compost you used looked really light and fluffy. If you can get heavier compost (we used 5 to 6 inches of a 50/50 mushroom and green waste compost that had quite a bit of small wood chunks still in it on our original beds which really smothered and excluded light) I think it would work a lot better for you over top of the cardboard. This is expensive though so you may want to double dig or till in year one to get started while you're making home made compost to reduce how much you need to purchase to convert to no-till (lately to avoid costs I've been using 6 inches of wood chip I can obtain for free over the cut and flipped over sod for six to nine months weeding as needed and not planting anything during this time before putting down home made compost to make new beds and plant into).
Also I would recommend avoiding the straw in year one to minimize the weed pressure while the perennials are dying underneath and will likely still poke through in places and need to be pulled. Annual weed seeds will still blow in and need dealt with but adding straw is likely introducing a ton more than you would otherwise have.
Lastly, I would do some research but I think you need to be careful tarping for extended periods of time as it can make your soil anaerobic and kill the microorganisms that you need for thriving soil. I think you only want to tarp for a few weeks to a couple months max. I think Jesse Frost of No-Till Growers talks about this in one of his UA-cam videos you can find on his channel. (we've had success with solarization using 6 mil black plastic, but again keeping the timeframe short for a few weeks to two months).
Aw Bruce, I feel for you! This was certainly not the result you hoped for after all that work 🙁 and I had been looking forward to this trial! But a result is a result I suppose.
I believe Jesse from No-Till Growers breaks the ground up first with a tiller/cultivator, the philosophy being that the soil ecology is already out of whack so you don't lose much. Then he covers it up and no more digging/tilling from that point onwards. No idea if that would make a difference, but it stands to reason that broken up rhizomes have less energy than one big one.
The ground isn't 'out of whack' it's correct as it is which is why we try to preserve it if possible.
@@lksf9820 I think the context for that was if you were to inherit a plot which had bad compaction from previous heavy tractors etc over the top of it, or had been tilled frequently up to that point. In which case tilling it once more isn't going to do much more harm.
Not sure it applies here.
Rotovating perennial weeds risks making your problems infinitely worse.
I’d use a perimeter vertical barrier. Overturn the turf and take out (compost) most plant material. THEN only cardboard and planting. Heavy planting to smother roots. Heavy mulch
Your analysis is also spot on i think
I feel for you! I have all the same weeds on my allotment, plus brambles.
I think a crucial factor may have been the time of year you laid the cardboard and soil down (autumn). I did the same method, except in spring (not because I'm clever, because it took so long to get enough cardboard!) and have had good success. That was after tarping the area for winter with solid black plastic (not the woven type), and digging out most of the brambles.
After laying cardboard and soil, I popped in veg transplants basically straight away, cutting a little hole in the carboard for the roots. The transplants were only ever watered directly at their roots, keeping the cardboard layer dryer and more impermeable for longer.
Hope this helps someone!
That is useful, I think. The key to making the method work is to keep the cardboard from decomposing or getting too wet for as long as possible, which is hard enough in a wet climate! A hole for the transplants is a good option.
Charles says it can take 2 years to fully eradicate bindweed, i started my allotment in December and its been tough staying on top of the weeds but i will continue to persevere
I've never found a satisfactory, definite kind of time period suggested. I think I heard him say 2 years too on one video. Before I'd ever heard "no dig" when I was just stuck with a shit heap of an allotment. There was like and old shed, no light, planks etc, I could see the mare's tail, like burnt but son of a bitch if I didn't see bleached areas that then grow back. That's like years. I think bindweed can live on and on too.
I use layers of cardboard and an 8" thick cover of wood chips to suffocate poison ivy. Additionally, for my no till beds, I have replicated this process and added compost on top. Process takes a couple years for the mycelium to do its thing but once the network is established, you will be very happy with your results.
hi Bruce what about a cover crop to initialize soil, something that fight grass
Have you ever tried using a flame weeder?
So are these weeds like the scutch grass not an issue in beds that you till? Is it the tilling that keeps the weeds at bay normally or do you have to apply herbicide?
Great informative experimental videos you create here.
To start off my no dig garden i used the technique u use in the simple garden. Plant pumpkins but then cover the ground with cardboard. Leaving the cardboard uncoverd it lasts a lot longer. Then the next year u can continue with the no dig approach. But unfortunately this takes 2 season
I think Bruce should do tours of his garden set up there. If I was in Ireland I'd love to have a look.
good video, i am trying the till once than tarp for 4 to 6 weeks. couple more weeks and i will find out if it works.
Will be interesting to see how successful it is.
That's great info, I believe main issue was making it too early, is way more effective if the cover to kill is not durment, as they specially store energy before going off for any possible thing that might happen on winter,
For me, covering the ground for an entire year has been the only effective method at removing scutch grass, creeping buttercup and nettle. I also set up barriers around the perimeter of the garden so that it is not re-invaded. I still get the occasional buried plant that revives, but largely this leaves the soil with only weed seeds to deal with the following year. A long process but necessary in my soil. County Wicklow
I don't think a year would be enough to kill bindweed roots
@@FireflyOnTheMoonYou're probably right but I think of bindweed in a different category, I know I can't really kill it off so I just stay on top of the weeding. I don't find it as difficult as the others since repeated simple weeding stops it from taking over.
Thanks for yet another thoughtfully made and informative video!
I too am curious about how the timing of the application affects the outcome of this method. In my climate (Pacific Northwest, USA) I have found that tarping in the spring is far more affective than in other times of the year. In the dry heat of our summer and the cold damp of our winter our grasses and weeds seem to go dormant, and after a few months under a tarp they still retain a lot of vigor. Tarping in the spring seems to coincide with their natural tendency to grow and they deplete themselves much more throughly. I wonder if you shifted the timing of your cardboard and mulch application to the spring if you would eliminate more of the weeds before the cardboard breaks down. I also think your ideas for weakening the weeds first are very practical.
It’s frustrating to see that some of the promises of no dig gardening don’t survive the real world, but having a realistic set of expectations will always be more important. Thanks again for your hard work!
can also not cover the card board just place it for weed suppression
What if you used a propane torch to burn it all down first, then use the weed fabric in two layers?
In the beginning of April in 2020, during covid lockdown, I created couple of new beds without digging the ground first. My approach was following:
- using a stronger fork, I loosened *very* compacted soil without turning it (just fork into the ground and moving it back and forth, and like this after every 10 cm or so along the whole bed area)
- layer of relatively fresh horse manure with hay on ground on top of the grass from last year (all those nice things you have, except thistles)
- generally everywhere two layers of cardboard, taking care that any edge would have a decent overlap, 30+ cm at least
- compost on top of the cardboard layers as growing medium
- about 1 year of daily newspapers folded into typical ~A4 sized format (as they arrive into post boxes) around the bed (having some overlap with cardboard and about half the newspaper page width overlap between individual day newspapers...
Result was such, that during first year, barely anything come through those barriers. I suppose two layers of cardboard + fresh manure were not the best environment for those grasses. Though, ground elders (Aegopodium podagraria) which we have en masse and also, later in the summer, bindweeds started to migrate into beds from edges during the summer. This year (3 years from start, without any digging), ground elders come out from everywhere, but because soil has very good structure, pulling them out with long pieces of roots is quite easy. During previous year (3-rd summer of beds), bindweeds came out quite often, but we just pulled them out with as much root as possible and by the end of summer, their new shoots were pretty weak. Of course those beds were just small ones (two beds, 3x1 meters each) and such weeding was feasible.
I always till for the first year or two in a no till garden
I think that makes the most sense.
Your experience matches mine almost exactly. The single layer of cardboard with mulch on top seems to just be a good way to select for rhizomatous weeds. In my case, Canadian Thistle. You just end up eliminating all the annual weeds that were competing with it before you added the mulch. The best way I've found recently to clear new beds is to lay down an old swatch of indoor/outdoor carpet that we ripped out of our porch a few years ago, leave it on for an entire growing season, and plant in it the year after. My concern with this is who knows what is leeching out of that carpet in the meantime. Will be interested to see whether and how you pivot from here in those spaces.
I've used sheet metal a lot for smothering weeds, and have even left it in place for 2 years. It does a great job at killing off most of the weeds, but it never gets 100%. I always have to come back and dig out the more stubborn weeds, so to save time, I just leave it in place for 2 weeks to 2 months (3 days is long enough to kill a lot of lawn grasses) and dig from there. As long as the bed gets mulched, it doesn't take too much weeding to get them cleaned up, but you have to be persistent until they're under control. Starting a no-till garden without digging out the tougher weeds can be difficult.