What an absolutely first-rate, and actually useful discussion. Thanks to all of you for such intelligent and enlightening talk. The show has inspired me to ponder anew some matters I thought I'd already resolved. Thanks again.
This was one of the best conversations I have seen on this show and on UA-cam in general. Each guest seemed an open and honest seeker of truth and showed each other a good amount of respect. Justine did not have to jump in much at all; well done.
I suspect for a lot of people, deconverting from Christianity is not an active decision. It's not like quitting an overbearing job at a fastfood restaurant where one might say, _"I'm fed up with this stuff, I'm done!"_ Usually a person wants to believe, but they keep finding errors, inconsistencies, and contradictions. That's coupled with the realization of supernatural events in the Bible being likely to never have happened. Eventually, the person literally can no longer believe even if they want to.
Yeah… but so sad, when there’s so much at stake. I mean, God sent His Son to Earth as one of us to save us, for heaven’s sake!!! There must be a good reason for something that extreme 😮 I was so encouraged to hear about both these men who grew up with the simplistic… “The Bible tells me so” …finding each other’s intellectual rigour. So glad they could share that with us.
I come from a different background, and got a deep identity in scholarship, not pop materialism. With that, I´ll just share that raised atheist humanist, I learned from my dad´s focus on businesspeople´s abuse of power. My dad left his mainline denomination because of what he called its "violent history." But, no demonizing scapegoating other than that. Religion was just another subject of interest for me as I started. I got my college degree in Bio Anthropology, looking at how we human animals began using symbols, and that has been a powerful tool and communication vehicle. As I started an interfaith path thanks to my dad´s copy of scholar Huston Smith´s book and Unitarian Universalist interfaith, I also gave spiritual-religious phenomena and knowledge its space. Psychosomatic healing gets into modern medically attested, medically impossible healing with spiritual-religious testimony. OC Simonton MD´s Healing Journey is great. Among others. The Catholics are actually good with that. Christian Science, too. Craig Keener wrote a great book in 2011. Among some others. And with Carl Jung´s kind of focus on spiritual experience angles, visionary experiences are a key. Thus, if Moses´ plagues and Red Sea parting etc were all natural events, the synchronizing with Moses´ experiences is pretty incredible. The U of Virginia´s Dept of Perceptual Studies is doing great work. Ideological materialism is not the truth. Personal effort in spiritual practice is more the key issue, and understanding a modern empirical approach. And UN human rights and sustainability is what is ultimately at stake. I id as an interfaith UU Quaker Christian aka Gandhian, who draws lots on Buddhism and Christian Science, plus. Freedom of Religion for individuals getting educational is where the full truth lies, and progressive Christianity is well along in many ways, although often not all.
This is definitely true. Deconstruction is something that happens to someone more than something they choose. That being said, I returned to faith after deconstruction, after being exposed to evidences for Christianity I had never heard before. My faith is still rocky and I’m still finding new doubts. But deconstruction is not the inevitable end. Reconstruction is possible.
These "supernatural" events not only happened (in the past), they continue today... especially healing. Check out Craig Keener's massive and well-documented volume on this!
Just as an old Englishman, always struggling with these questions and watching, these days, the arguments unfold on youtube, I am so often impressed (and this is a shining example), with the depth of knowledge, thought and commitment evidenced by relatively young Americans. I don't see much of the trite, UK / European "I am an atheist, it's all nonsense, let's move on" - but on all sides are people who have thought hard, who have textual understanding, and who remain open to debate. Whatever else being "raised in Church" does to a person, it seems to me clearly to equip them better to think on these issues than does the typical upbringing of young people here. Well done to both of you.
1:16:32 I just wanted to say I always love hearing Josh talk! I can’t believe I haven’t heard this talk yet. I’m a “deconstructionist former-church punk”😅 I fell in love with theology/ philosophy and read lots of different. As I fully respect Pastor Josh, I think he’s an “enlightened Christian”.
I don't want to sound simplistic, but I believe our ways are not God's ways. It is my conviction after a lifetime of Bible study that God does not "fudge" anything. That is why he literally had to send his Son to solve the problem of sin and justification. I think Jon wants God to intervene and make it all better, but God knows that will not solve the separation problem.
I love Jon Steinhard's honesty. It's a shame that for using his own mind that most evangelicals think he will go to some torturous dungeon forever! However, a very respectful dialogue.
My friend, it's with great sadness that I believe many will spend eternity in Hell. Those who rebel against God's Love are in great danger. I am not Jon's judge. But to walk away not just from Christianity, but from the Person of Christ, the Lover of our souls is a tragic thing. Yet, let God be true and every man a liar. He knows better than us
@David Dibben I hear you, but I think you are missing the point, which ironically is LOVE. As St John puts it, God is Love. Perfect love is to give up one's life for your friends. And while we were enemies, Christ loved us enough to suffer torture and crucifixion for us. The issue is that we are ultimately not loving. We are not patient, kind, selfless, humble, long suffering, ect. We don't realize the horror of our sin, the manifestation of our rebellion against God's love, the ugliness of which is tangibly expressed in Christ 's broken body on the cross. Christ did not need to die in this way; rather we needed Him to. We need to be spiritually reconciled to Love and rescued from the wide road to destruction. But it is His desire that all will be saved. He Sacred Heart is broken for those who refuse, clinging instead to eternal isolation from God and self
Good conversation, I grew up listening to Christian bands so I heard both the bands these growing up and where they have wound up in their faith is very interesting! I have personally had struggles with my faith at times and it's useful to hear about others struggling too.
Again, Great conversation. I'm with Jon on this one. I found myself in the midst of deconstruction and really didn't want to be! I agree with what he says about wanting there to be a God, and how you loose so much when you leave Christianity. It's been the hardest thing I've ever been through, but yet the most liberating and life giving. Reconstruction a meaningful and purposeful life afterwards is very very hard. But I can't leave the conversation... hence why I'm watching this video! Fascinating stuff.
You're not alone. I de-converted two weeks before Christmas 2022 after growing up from birth in the faith. I just turned 37 in January so I was a Christian for 30+ years. Luckily my study into textual and source criticism caused my wife to question and leave the faith with me (technically a month before I did funnily enough). We have 8 children together (still living at home) so that would have been hard to be _unequally yoked._ I agree with everything you said. It is a hard road ahead but its yoke is easier and its burden is lighter. I feel almost born-again now that I left the faith. I had plans to go to seminary after my kids got older and maybe become a pastor or teacher. Even though I no longer believe in the Bible, I find myself loving to study it even more now than I did before. I still try to engage in theological and logic debates with Christian friends and family but they're still drinking the Kool-Aid and suffer from _cognitive dissonance_ and subjective _confirmation biases._ How long were you a believer and how long have you been away from the Jesus cult?
@@icypirate11 Hi. I was in it from birth, heavily involved in church with worship leading since I was 16 (36 now). It all started to fall apart slowly as I entered a period of poor mental health back in 2018 after a health scare resulting in PTSD, but signs of something happening were there a couple years earlier still. The pressure I put on myself to lean on my faith slowly lead me into depression when it just didn't work. Then with the birth of our 3rd child, and my wife being hospitalised towards the end of the pregnancy, right at the beginning of the first lockdown, I had loads of time to think about it all. Long story short - I tried to find a route back into christianity by deeply studying it, much like yourself by the sounds of it. Then, as you'll know, the jenga tower soon fell! 3 years on, (with the help of self administered psychedelic therapy!) - I genuinely feel the best I ever have done. I'm a better husband, father, and general human. My wife is on a similar path too. But I still can't escape the fascination with this thing that captivated me for 30 years!
This was a great conversation I really enjoyed this. I am a late convert (at age 39 in 2013) and then I deconstructed my faith in 2017 and walked away from Christianity and my faith until the Lord sought me through dreams and visions in 2019. I now attend The Sanctuary Downtown which is a Christian Universalist Church in Denver, CO. God takes us each on our own journey. For me the idea of eternal conscious torment was just too dissonant with the God who saved me while in a same sex marriage and in much sexual sin with men. I am sure heads are spinning. However, I am very happy 9 years post salvation that Jesus is still the Lord of my life and that Jesus saves. God is salvation. What happened on the cross was the greatest act of love ever. God is desperately in love with all of us. We are all his children and we are each made in the image of God. Heaven is real and hell is restorative and God is love and his wrath ends in the reconciliation of all things which includes all people. Hallelujah much love to you all.
Breaks my heart to read your post, Cara. It seems you have rejected the Word of God and constructed something more to your liking, in effect making a god in your own image. Jesus warned us of false and seductive "Christs" more palatable to the unregenerate heart. He also solemnly warned us of the reality of an everlasting Hell of our OWN choosing. He came to save us from this, to save us from ourselves. He was punished in our place. Divine retribution fell upon the sinless Son of God so that the gracious offer of pardon and restoration could be extended to us. The Lord Jesus explicitly and repeatedly spoke of the eternal separation of the redeemed from the unrepentant wicked. Many will despise the Cross and contemptuously and finally refuse the remedy for their sin. This is the indelible testimony of the Holy Scriptures. We ignore it at our peril. We also run the risk of being found guilty of misleading others, which is a terrible thing. Please reconsider before it's too late.
This was so enjoyable to listen with all the amicable disagreements. Also, I absolutely love this new more than 1 hr format. More time to go in depth on the issues.
Every time I hear these deconstrucion stories, I'm so grateful that I had a personal encounter with Jesus when I was so young. At 10 years old. I could never deny what that was. It was God reaching out to me when I had never even heard any doctrine. The rest of my life I've spent getting to know the God that had reached out to me and I've continued to know him more and more. It was never about doctrine or theology when I was a child. It was about the love of God touching me. That's not something I could ever deconstruct. In fact, I've gone on for decades constructing my life around it, learning the doctrine and theology that goes with the God I already knew.
@@krizilloo2538 pretty creeped out. But overall happy. I feel like John steingard; I want there to be a tri-omni god. I just don’t believe there is one. And it would take Jesus showing up and doing something to convince me. Not theological arguments, not a warm fuzzy feelings.
I would pushback on what Jon was saying at the end by saying that psychology has shown that most people who do evil things think that they are good or even that their actions are good. But does everyone ask God to reveal himself over against our own ideas? I think that's more rare. Regarding what Josh said, the beauty and artistry of the Bible is what also draws me in. The Chosen finale this week really reminded me of this - drawing on a Psalm that includes metaphor and history, and then relating that to the lives of Peter and David in the episode, to give a small answer to the problem of evil through this crazy, over-the-top miracle of Jesus walking on water. I'd just have to say I love it. Only God existing makes sense of art in the world like this. And I realized later the Psalm was also about Jesus' return - giving an answer to future pain. It's all just madness. I love it.
I was really surprised by how much I enjoyed this conversation. Excellent tone and charitable discussion with a pretty decent grasp on some tough issues. I listened on my Saturday long run, and paused to listen to some of the music of both bands during the tempo portion of my run. I enjoyed both bands. However, I can now totally understand why Jon would feel weird opening for Showbread at Cornerstone. Blessings to you both!
Love Josh, his humility, and his outlook on God and the Bible. What a great conversation. It made room for personal journey and exploration. I must say that as I learned more about the Bible and all the interpretations christians disagree on, I do wonder why the Bible isn’t clear on lots of topics. What does this mean? What does this say about God? I have come to appreciate the complexity of humans and the complexity of God. But all of it reflects God and his immeasurable and infinite wisdom. We have a great God!
This was such a respectful conversation from people who don’t agree on things, but do agree on other things. A refreshing model for all things in life where there isn’t total agreement but intelligent and respectful discussion. Something that stood out to me on the subject of evil - the deceiving of Eve and Adam who was with her (Genesis 3:6). Then in Genesis 3:14-15, God spoke directly to the serpent (Satan) and cursed him. I wrestle all the time with a Good God allowing us to choose his way vs choosing the sparkly way of Satan and the consequences that follow. That’s a simplistic view to some very real and gigantic questions, issues, and problems however it is the very first tiny step in moving from a belief to living out my faith.
I really appreciated the thoughtfulness of this discussion. The open dialogue about both the simplicity and complexity of the Bible is something that truly is something we’ll likely wrestle for a lifetime. Josh hits on the depth of complexity we have to wrestle through when we consider things like violence, slavery, etc… These kinds of discussions make me think of the book of Job. After everything, Job is shaking his fist at God and God calls him out on just how small his understanding is of the world. Job breaks down realizing he has such a limited lens and view into things that it’s truly impossible to even begin to imagine how all things come together. What can seem obvious in our time-limited and narrow understanding quickly becomes overwhelmingly complicated when we begin considering it on an eternal and completely interconnected level. Where it seems these two have come to different conclusions is based on where they put their faith. Josh has surrendered himself to faith in God’s promises and goodness. Jon seems to have put his faith in his own ability assess and interpret things. Ultimately it all comes down to the Genesis 3 choice. Will we choose to surrender and put our faith in God or believe in our own ability to do better?
It’s not a contest. This is about identity and personification of our species as pertaining to human value and purpose. The addition of a deity adds little to the reality and subsequent facts of this endeavor.
@@mr.c2485, I’m not trying to suggest it’s a contest. I’m suggesting it’s a choice, which can be seen in the origin story of sin. Perhaps it made no sense to Adam and Eve why a good God wouldn’t let them eat a fruit that would help them discern between good and evil. Rather than choose to trust God, they chose that they knew better. Where will we choose to put our faith? In ourself or God. At the end of the day, it’s a choice we all have to make. I was simply pointing out that it seems apparent from the dialogue where both Josh and Jon fall on that choice.
With regards to Gen 3 It’s strange to consider knowing the difference between good and evil to be something God would take issue with. It’s as if God’s perfect purpose was to keep his creation ignorant of the moral consequences of their actions. Very odd…
I absolutely agree 100% with Jon Steingard regarding evil. As he pointed out, Numbers 31 on it's own is reason enough to question God's "all loving" motif. Was he looking down from Heaven as Moses's army slaughtered the Midianites, .. while "all those virgin girls who have not known a man, .. keep alive for yourselves" The mind boggles.
...Verisimilitude...the Living God actually lived in the brutal Bronze Age...the Canaanites were pagan "Pain-in"ites...ritual child killers...could anything be more evil? ...So even the cruel pagan Romans wanted the Phoenicians exterminated, due to their practice religious infanticide...so they also, entered into a life and death cultural struggle, with colonial Canaanites, for over a Hundred of years...finally geocide-ing the Canaanites once and for all, at Carthege in 146 AD.... Besides the Bible's Killing the Canaanites was Awesome...it makes Conan the Barbarian look like Comic Books..young boys love all that unsissyfied stuff...
@@anarchorepublican5954 what credible evidence do you have that they were child killers, the Caananites were a sophisticated nation from the things I've read, I've also seen examples of their artistry and design at the Ashmolian museum in Oxford UK.
@@bonnie43uk ...oh yes, the Phoenicians were very sophisticated, but they were still addicted to child sacrifice...Canaanites believed that flame roasting, their prized posterity, to be the pagan secret of their prosperity. Both the Bible and the Roman accounts confirm this...the highest sacrifice was the infant son of a noble or chieftain "passed thru the fire"👶🏽☛🔥🗿...it was considered a near guarantee of soldiering success.. If I memory serves, colonial Canaanite King Hannibal, of Carthage, himself sacrificed his son, just before he invaded Europe with his Elephants... Archaeology has also stablished this, numerous sacred temple urns have been uncovered with charred sacrificial infant remains... When this keep in from of mind, in it's full historical cultural context... I find it rather "deconstructs"..all the anachronistic HAThEist angst and baseless moralizing.... It merely means the text is historically accurate...
@bonnie43uk Sophistication is not the issue. Evil and the giving into demonic forces is. The Tanakh is explicit regarding the crimes of the Canannite nations which go well beyond literal demonic child sacrifice. Enoch also offers an interesting perspective. Unfortunately, these crjmes which provoke God's judgment far too closely mirror the accepted crimes of sphisticated Western modern culture.
Dave from hawk nelson came from Boise he played in a local band called a Rotterdam in November I hope John nothing but the best wish him and Jason and everyone could've had reunion
As a born again, I find through binging of UA-cam Christian videos, channels, testimonies. Around the time of deconstruction, there’s this rise of people finding faith in Christ.
Such a good defense of free will..."We do provide full autonomy, we also provide consequences, not pro-active restrictions." The very fact that we have in us a capacity for Justice is fascinating.
Even though Josh is a believer, he is a completely different type of believer from the religious people I grew up around. So if absolutely nothing else, it seems like religion is sort of constantly deconstructing itself. And I'm here for it.
As an outsider looking at American evangelicalism, I can very well understand that people leave the faith or their church or deconstruct. A lot of it looks totally crazy and very often there seems to be a thriving biblical and cultural illiteracy among “Christian” Americans.
It doesn’t shake my faith, but it breaks my heart when those so blessed by God, turn away. I grew up in church but had doubts from my early teens. Listening to these young men helps me to understand how and why this happens. My experience was very much the opposite - constructed one tiny stone at a time until my faith became unshakable. The first little building block came out of a nervous habit when I was 21. I walked everywhere and pulled leaves off bushes and tore them into tiny pieces leaving a trail of organic confetti wherever I went. One day I stopped dead in my tracks and looked at the leaf I was about to destroy. I looked around with wonder at the trees, the grass, bushes, flowers, and simply knew that I was not looking at some cosmic accident, but incredible design. 54 years have passed since that first tiny step. Eventually those steps led me beyond believing in a Creator to the God of the Bible. I found my way to this discussion wondering what happens after faith that seemed once strong is lost. This is a wonderful discussion.
He simply is no longer convinced. He can no more choose to believe than you can choose not to. Here's a thought experiment. Set a timer for 5 minutes and while it is running believe that god does not exist. When the alarm goes off return fully to faith. Ridiculous, right? I can detect no resistance only sincer questions and reasoning. He is a non resistant unbeliever as far as I can see. That wrecks christainity, I get it. I used to think there really was no such thing as an athesit. Now that I am one, I know I was completely wrong. Take you time, there is no hurry. A mustanrd seeds faith is all that is needed to move mountains. You can't choose what you are conviced of but you can take a moment to empathise with those who sincerly struggle with faith. Make that choice and enjoy a new found freedom from judging others and, ultimately yourself. Peace, be free.
it is difficult to work through all the problems which might arise when you work the bible morality through by your self or especially when you have to personally chase through the authorities on the many possible issues
Oof this one was a rough listen. I have no idea why Josh just went with a lot of Jon's premises. It's one thing to empathize but to affirm them is in the end , unloving. In the end, it's also mostly a heart issue. "You would think God would have done things according to my expectations. Therefore he doesn't exist" is not a rational argument. It's pride. It's wanting emancipation, independence, because "I know the way from here." In a way that's what the whole secular culture is all about and he is a product of it.
If you sincerely understood Jon to have said anything remotely close to that, then it's not surprising why this conversation would've been rough for you to listen.
I acknowledge that while I’m an atheist who was never exposed to being taught I should believe in a god by virtue of where I was born & grew up I’ve been influenced by Christianity and some of its values. Therefore I consider myself to be a culturally Christian atheist. I don’t know if future generations will be like me if religion continues to fall out of favour. I certainly no longer try to convince Christian’s it’s not true. But I have taught my now adult kids that there’s some ideas that come from Christianity are worth preserving & passing on even if the central claims of devine beings aren’t persuasive. They’re having their own kids now so I hope I succeeded & they are passing on those ideas.
Really enjoyed both Josh and Jon's conversation. My own experience is quite similar to Josh's, so perhaps I need to pick up his book. A couple thoughts to throw into the mix, mostly pertaining to Jon's counter arguments to Josh's assertions regarding the potential of reconstruction. First, I noticed a couple inconsistencies. At one point Jon suggests that if God were to speak universal morals into the world by way of a book that we would expect the Bible to look differently than it does. But then he also suggests that the sort of moral he does accept emerges in a world that looks very much like he describes the Bible- inconsistent, contextualized, emergent, limited, ect ect. I might challenge his presumption that we would or should expect the Bible to look differently than it does by asking, if it is true that God spoke (and speaks) into the world in time and place, would/should we not expect this to then be communicated through the context of time and place? Wouldn't it be made sense of through the limiting nature of language and culture? If it is fair to qualify what we call morals as the true image and nature of God, would think the burden is on Jon to demonstrate what a world would like in which God reveals a singular truth that translates equally to all people in all places and in all times. I think the burden is also on Jon to demonstrate how and why he can trust a moral framework and reality that emerges apart from a true, revealed source in ways that are demonstrably inconsistent, far from uniform and limited, perceivably, to us modern humans limited to the 21st century whom have finally figured it all out. Its worth noting too that so much of what Jon was saying seems hyper focused on christianity as a book. If it is true that there are better ways of speaking about what scripture is and how to be good readers of it, then it seems the piece that Jon is missing is that of the spirit. If we believe that truth is accessed through a fusion of experience, Tradition, community and scripture, and if we believe in the importance of study, then textual criticism should simply be a way into the world of the text, not undermining our ability to access truth about it. If we believe God spoke and speaks into the world, then it makes sense to me to see scripture simply as a the words of those who believed God spoke into their midst, who struggled to make sense of that amidst their own awareness of and study of Tradtion, community, experience and scripture. The other inconsistency was when Jon was talking about the problem of evil and suggesting that we should expect that a world in which God is not simply relegated to residing on top of the mountain and distanced from our day to day experiences would essentially move to rid and save all people from suffering in all places and wll times. Again, this is not the world he sees though when he looks at reality absent of God or gods, thus the burden is on him to demonstrate why and how the problem of evil is solved in any other view and why its existence should necessarily undermine the existence of God but not the existence of human goodness and value. Just on this same front, I would add this to my own thinking surrounding that issue. I actually agree with Jon to a point on the matter of liberty. Except I would suggest that there is no such thing as a completely free will. Rather what we find are people shaped by external realities and acting in relationship to such realities. This is why a theology of the spiritual Powers enslaving creation is a necessary starting point for any discussion of the will and Evil. If by Powers we simply mean Evil as a very real agency (we are not speaking of traditional concepts of satan and hell in other words), then what this means is that the problem of evil is primarily systemic in nature. This at least allows us to move out into the world without making humanity or nature the evil agency. It also means that what we should/would expect God to do is deal with what is a systemic problem so that true liberty can actually be enacted on the basis of our participation in one reality or another (a reality where the Powers have been defeated and one where they have not).
I think their conversation on the Bible really boils down to this: If the Bible was written by men and inspired by God, it would be something wholly different than it is today. It would have a quality to it that no other literature has to it. It would condemn slavery, it wouldn’t be brutal, it wouldn’t have genocide in its pages, et al. On the other hand, if the Bible was written by human beings and not inspired by God, it would look just like it does…filled with errors, inconsistent ethics and competing and often times contradictory voices. This is something I could never get away from when I was a Christian. I wished the Bible was a better document to rest my faith upon, it simply wasn’t.
Another reason for my deconstruction was I couldn’t grasp the idea of salvation… under any other context, abandoning the ownership of my culpability and personal responsibility is absolutely disgusting but for some reason that is acceptable in Christianity???
Ownership? Culpability? Personal responsibility? Who are you to tell others what constitutes these abstract ideas? Your idea of these concepts in the worldview you reside in holds as much weight as the gas that I pass.
@@felixthecat1974 “Ownership? Culpability? Personal responsibility? Who are you to tell others what constitutes these abstract ideas? “ Ummm, what did I say about what constitutes these abstract ideas? “Your idea of these concepts in the worldview you reside in “ What is it??? You forgot to explain that bit “holds as much weight as the gas that I pass.” I guess that means you don’t put as much stock in integrity as I do. Cool.
@@felixthecat1974 Wait, are you saying the Christian concept of “Salvation” is an abstract idea. That salvation can BE anything anyone wants it to mean? That’s just WAY TOO convenient Please don’t say that’s what you’re saying…please!!!!!!
@@felixthecat1974 I’m tripping on the level of your failure. My post said “Another reason for 👉my 👈deconstruction was 👉I 👈couldn’t grasp the idea of salvation… “ You asked me “ Who are you to tell others what constitutes these abstract ideas” I was speaking for myself Was this a slip, a glaring error revealing YOUR projection?
You have to own it though in order to put your faith in Jesus for salvation, as far as I see it. Otherwise there would be no reason to. I guess the question doesn't make sense to me because it makes the ownership of my sin all the more horrifying.
To add a little to the free will discussion, another problem many Christian’s have is that they equate free will with the ability to do evil. To give an analogy of why this a bad equivocation, I currently do not have the ability to start flying with my free will. Yet I still have free will, even though I lack certain abilities. In the same way, many paraplegic’s lack the ability to physically move their body, and therefore cannot physically harm people. But most Christians would still grant they have free will. I could lack the ability to preform harmful actions on other people yet still retain all the other elements of free will I have currently. Most notably someone could still chose wether or not to have a relationship with Christ while lacking the ability to harm others.
It's a good point, but you are describing the world before the fall, so your point doesn't rule out the God of the Bible. Humanity lacked the ability to harm others while choosing to be in right relationship with God at the beginning. But it is a consequence of knowing evil (choosing to abandon that relationship with God) that one then can harm others. Because that choice plunged creation into the possibility of evil choices, only the God-man could bring the possibility of destroying that evil into play - a being who is man and only good; His free will restores us.
Christians will tell you it is impossible for Jesus to sin, without realizing that this is a refutation of free will. If God himself cannot betray his own nature, how can man? Are we freer than he?
@Sara That's not the Christian position. I find most free will objections to be disingenuous "gotcha" type one-ups far removed from everyday human experience, where right and wrong are freely chosen, resulting in legitimate delight and guilt. Maybe there's a genuine existential wrestling I'm missing here
@@valeried7210 unfortunately this misses the point a little bit. We do live in a world where certain types of evil exist, yet we could live in a world where these evils do not exist while still retaining all the important elements of free will. That’s why free will is not a good excuse for evil. It is possible that God still exists and the types of evil we see still exist. But it does rule out that the God of the Bible has certain Omni attributes assigned to him by classical theism. There may be other theodicies that do a better job at getting around this however, but the free will theodicy is inherently flawed in my view.
@@dillanklapp I think the evils directly reflect the opposite of goods which are in keeping with God's character. So the evil that does exist is a reflection of rebellion against God.
This was a great conversation. I do wonder about Josh's reliance on "faith" as a pathway for believing claims without evidence, especially claims that sound absolutely fantastical (e.g., a supposed spiritual realm where lesser gods and demons live and play and spill over into our reality) given there's zero evidence for the existence of this place? I guess my question would be, why believe these claims?
I appreciate the open dialogue, truly. However, 💔 The absolute tap dancing and sidestepping in defense of biblical slavery is appalling. I can understand how many believers can go without knowing / examining these passages for a long time. But once they know.... ? If you return to the faith without having resolved this, it is equivalent to saying "sh-t happens. Let's ignore it and believe anyway." We all need to listen to videos of excuses like this to inoculate ourselves against thinking Christians are safe or Christianity is moral. Heartbreaking.
What I think is interesting is that in their 30s they can assume that this is the final place they are resting before they die. I am 53 and am still transforming in numerous ways. This idea that you can go through a couple difficult things in your 20s and then write a book after it seems opportunistic.
Very good conversation. Thanks, Justin, for all you do!! I would encourage John to keep reading the Word of God, OT and NT together- Jesus is there from beginning to end in the beginning of creation, prophesied after the fall, prophesied by the prophets, pictured in sacrifices and festivals... When he came, he fulfilled the law perfectly, he was our lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. He walked among men, spent time with the disciples who witnessed all that he did and who testified to it. The pharisees did not recognize him as the one Israel was waiting for, although they did know who he claimed to be-God the Son, Messiah, which is why they wanted him put to death. The disciples and followers knew he died, was buried and rose again-they saw him alive. John weird that he wrote his gospel app that we would believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and that by believing we may have life in his name. Paul testified to his meeting with Jesus and his total turn around because he knew the Truth. All scripture works together to support the biblical story of God, Us, our falling short, our consequence for sin, Jesus'provision to save us...God did provide boundaries like parents do-men and women pushed those boundaries from the start (they had 1 rule to follow!) and wanted their own way, which led to consequences that came. Time and time again, God would rescue the Israelites (read the book of judges folks) they'd be for God and then quickly devolve into idolatry and huge sin. Same cycle I go through in my life daily! Don't give up, John! I see many people deciding to leave Christianity because they don't like the way God is, what he seems to be like, what He's doing, or how He's doing things-they seem to get into some mix of Buddhism, humanism, new ageism- mostly me-ism... That leads them all to come up with whatever version of god they like. I can't possibly, with my little mind, understand the infinite eternal God. All I know is that I don't need to. He knows the beginning to the end, He is perfect in Love, Mercy, Grace, Justice, Power, etc. He shows us through His Word who He is, who we are, tells us the solution, even tells us it's offered to all but most will not choose Him. That part is not on Him, the accepting salvation by faith part is on us. The more I read the Old Testament, the clearer the New Testament becomes. As far as the part they talked about in how a parent is, this is what I have to say on that as a parent. Yes, I would step in and rescue my child but at some point, they will push outside our boundaries, just as mine did. They have free will and make choices that are sometimes costly or hurtful in the consequences that come. It is sometimes in these hurtful, painful, dark times that we add parents learn to rely on God and also our children can learn to rely on God. We don't know the future or what some of these things can accomplish in a life or in the timeline of history, but I can live in the knowledge that God does. If it lives were perfect and pain free, why would we need God or faith? There are people & books out there that can help you walk through questions, doubts, hurts.
I believe one day as the scriptures says "we will know as we are known" that is, it will all be clear to us that the God of Israel did not approve of slavery (and other evils that seem to be condoned in the bible) but that the lord was in a sense 'stuck with us' as his only day-to-day means of getting stuff done and that meant that he had to be cleaver by working with what he had (i.e with a people who's practise of slavery (servitude - not chaddle slavery!) was a part of the culture) to get them to a place where one day it would be ended by the masses (it still goes on today!) We cannot sit in the heavens and look down on ancient people and judge them by our stadards as if we were god knowing the begging from the end! Read Dennis Prager's books on the Torah and you will learn wisdom like this and many others.
@Dave the Brahman If that's your honest take away from studying in depth the entire Tanakh, taking into full account the ancient near east culture, then something is wrong. The God of the Jews, the one true God of the Universe, explicitly condemns rape and the murder of innocents in the Torah. Don't you realize that's what Sodom and Gomorrah was in many ways about? The call to war in order to supernaturally drive out and exterminate (a command which Israel did not fulfill) deeply corrupt nations was His judgment. The healthy Jewish sense of the fear of God is missing today, as is the healthy "wrestling" of Israel.
@@foodforthought8308 Thanks for your response. The Tanakh is a collection of books, almost all of which present a God who constantly does deeply immoral things. Most interaction between peeple and Yahweh seem to end in murdered innocent children. People don’t see this because they are blinded by theology. The whole business of ‘Eastern literature’ is remarkable; what apologists are saying is that their ancient texts are no better than the boastful, lying edicts of Assyrian and Egyptian kings. The slavery ordained by God is chattel slavery, Yahweh says this explicitly in Exodus 21:21.
It doesn't seem like there is a great deal of scriptural understanding here, particularly on topics like slavery and ethics in general. I was pretty disappointed with that aspect of the interview
From an atheist perspective, One finds concepts of good throughout human cultures, it’s functional and adaptive. The trouble is we tend to value goodness more among “us” and not toward “them”. Cultures determine what is “doing good” and this continues to be negotiated and challenged…this is necessary to respond as conditions change. Jesus is not the only person to ever offer ethical teaching …and how well Christianity is doing in advocating for the ethics of Jesus is remarkably diverse and debatable.
@@cipherklosenuf9242 how can we trust any culture to know what good is? one culture's good isnt good in another culture, so how can we know we're pursuing any good beyond what we've convinced ourselves is good (however well we allow ourselves to trust our own mind). It leads to pretty heinous places like crusades, etc.
That's a great question ."Good" and "evil" are certainly inherently human concepts (labels we use to describe human behaviors). So ultimately, the collective we of humans decide what we call "good" and for most of us with otherwise healthy brains, good means spreading peace, calm, happiness, health, and generally alleviating the suffering of other creatures while "evil" means spreading conflict, chaos, sadness, disease, and generally inflicting suffering on other creatures.
@@RLBays but why are those things good to a healthy brain? its a turtles all the way down situation where we have no real basis for calling something good or bad
@@CodyVanRyn The Crusaders we’re told they were doing good and God was on there side. Point taken. How can we not trust a culture to determine what is good? That’s what one sees if one believes that people are responsible for what we do or do not do. One who believes evil spirits and good spirits are at war and we our pawns or whatever may argue for a version of supernatural authority which they are convinced is reality. From outside their worldview it always appears to be the reality they created of themselves. Here we are. What challenges do we face? How may we best respond? Such questions and our responses result in outcomes.
In the words of Miraslav Wolf "Universalism dies at the edge of the suburb." In other words...you enter into the world of those who have or are currently experience insane injustices, the idea of no judgement or hell for the evil seems incongruous from a loving and benevelont God. You cannot have Mercy without justice.
Lots of things are incongruous but also true. Our intuitions do not always track reality. Things are true or false whether we like it or not. Essentially, you are making an argument from incredulity.
Paul Copan’s book is special pleading and false analysis throughout. He claims, on no evidence, that the ancient Hebrew documents would have been understood as analogous to Near Eastern royal edicts, when in fact they are nothing like them. The books of Samuel amd the books of Kings etc were obviously intended to be historical, nothing like the boastful and untruthful royal decrees. Likewise, Copain claims without evidence that the Canaanite cities were ‘military fortresses’ with few civilians. He is a mere apologist.
@@anarchorepublican5954 If you can’t see the problem of a ‘good God’ presiding over such a horrible world, you really need to visit a Children’s Hospital and see how efficacious your excuses are.
Please correct me if I am wrong. I read Paul Copan's book awhile ago (I read a lot, so it doesn't all stick) and I don't remember it that well but I have this memory of him talking about the virgin part (kill everyone except the virgins) in a way that it was totally ok and it wasn't sexual slavery because they married them. It made me sick to my stomach.
Pray for Jon’s heart to be softened to God and for His faith to be restored and for God to give Him the understanding that He has not had just as we need too ❤❤❤
The eccentric artist piece is fine, but not when eternal damnation is a penalty for not understanding what the message really is. For that, you need clarification that can’t be debated.
Very good point. I think there is actually a progress involved. Also that might be seen as contradicting that, 'God doesn't change' but IMHO God can and does change. To me the whole story of the Bible is God becoming more human so we could become more God like. Culminating in the incarnation in Jesus Christ. The Bible is the story of God coming closer to us. Fun fact, that was something spelled out in the book "God - a biography" which looks at the Bible from a literary standpoint and doesn't touch much on the question, 'does God exist' but rather, 'how is he represented to us in the pages of the Bible'. Very interesting read. Author is Jack Miles.
48:49 Jon is almost spot on with this. I grew up listening to Showbread and I love Josh Porter, but what Josh is promoting lacks the full Biblical gospel. Without a sound Biblical interpretation, it will lead you to these inconsistencies that bother Jon. And the only consistent view if you oppose God's sovereignty in election is universalism. If you allow the whole Bible to inform your reading, the only consistent understanding of God through His text is a (wait for iiiiit)... a Biblical one (AKA a reformed one). If you reject a reformed view of the Bible, and you want to be consistent, you have to be a universalist. The mushy middle stuff eventually falls apart and leads to more people like Jon, whom we should pray for. I just realized, I should also clarify that it's not just an inconsistancy that bothers Jon. Even if you were to present a full, rich exegesis of scripture, he would still have a hardened heart to this. Because it's not his brain that's the problem, it's his heart. He needs to be born again just like I needed to be. God has to do a supernatural work in your soul to regenerate you so you can respond rightly to His awesome gospel.
1:06:39 This is one of his main problems. He is so focused on a man-centeredness, which is unfortunately all too common even in apologetic circles (it sounds like it might be in Josh's theology too). Starting with man and reasoning to God. That type of reasoning has an inherently low view of God. It's not until God graciously allows us to see a glimpse of how holy He is and how wretched we are.
I would push back on the use of the word "faith" as the basis for the bibliology which describes the Bible as a promulgation of God's word - really it's nothing more than simply ego "fantasy". People who adhere to what I would consider such a low bibliology as the Chicago statement simply just made such a notion up - out of and for their own egos.
Judging by all the other shit you tend to post. What would be best for everyone and you would be if you stepped out and touched some grass and than come back and continue fear god some more and god's eventual rejection of you.
As Billy Joel says its much more fun to laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints. Once you remove God, why not just go indulge in hedonism. Many people just hate the idea of a cosmic authority,
I’m deconstructed from Christianity and willing to discuss cosmic authority if you would like to challenge your perspective. I enjoy these conversations.
Religion is art a meta-art. If the bible is a divine then is even more problematic that there are many christianities… Only faith (a desire to) is the only one su to accept any religion. Atheism is the only logical answer, but for some is just does not feel good, but truth is not about feeling good about it. Great conversation
A man admitted that he has formed a unique and personal "God" based on his personality and biases. Instead of being content with his PERSONAL idea of God he is so arrogant that he needs to go out and WITNESS about his PERSONAL idea of God. The Bible say very clear that one of the worst things someone can do is bear false witness. Every pastor, preacher, prest etc literally believe they have a God like ability to know absolute truth that no mere human could possibly know. Or maybe they just ignore the fact (according to the Bible) they may be bearing false witness which is literally a top ten offense against God. I love the amount of material BY HUMANS that is out to explain God book aka the Bible lol.
Over and over and over again, Steingard uses scripture in the exact same way he hates that Christians use scripture. He never once asks "why did God allow or seemingly promote slavery?" Never once. That is arguing in bad faith.
HAThEist H'Assuptions again rear their ugly Head ...or on land on their Head... ...well maybe we humans, as moral beings (souls) are much more than just chemical molecules?...
@@onionbelly_ ...wrong question..another HAThEist asssumption...since we are built of chemicals...that's all we are... the more relevant and interesting question should be rather:... How can could a thought ever be generated by chemicals alone?...can that be repeated in a laboratory?⚗🔬 ...maybe you're confusing the "Software"=💬💭🗯...with the "Hardware"🧠...
@@onionbelly_ ...I would define free will ..as existential atheist John Paul Sartre might define it ...the perpetual human ability to chose( a path) and thus affect outcomes...obey or disobey...submit or resist...believe or disbelieve..choose or reject...love or despise... what is the real mystery, is why this isn't obvious to everyone...or rather, maybe it is...
@@anarchorepublican5954 I wasn't making those assumptions, and I certainly wasn't being hateful. I'm genuinely interested in the topic of free will and I was simply asking for the OP's clarification, and all you're doing is twisting my words because you have this straw man version of an atheist you have in your mind. Please bother someone else.
With over 40k different denominations it definitely seems like a mess. Imagine if Ananias and Sapphira story would be true nowadays. All of these NAR preachers etc. would just drop dead and we would have no problems with their heresies and the funny thing is, it wouldn't even go against the bible lol. Ofc apologists are going to tell you that the events were meant for the protection of the early church blahblah. In the end you will have nothing to grasp on except your blind faith and "experiences" that can be explained away. I couldn't hold on to that. I wanted to but couldn't.
o my... from all the troubles in religion and in the world, you have an issue that there are different branches of theology? seriously? we have our own volitional and cognitive ideas of how to analyze, dissect, and understand anything. if you and i witness something, we may perceive or even understand it differently. that doesn't mean one of us is wrong as long as we keep the basics together. secondary things are what usually churches and their doctrines disagree about, and they are not always some huge issues. all sound theology agrees on the Trinity, Bible being God's Word, Jesus being the prophecies Messiah and God in the flesh, born of a virgin, etc. there's nothing wrong about different theologies unless they are either cultish or heresies. it makes you read, study, research, and so on instead of just sitting and thinking like everyone else. i don't see problems with that. a liberal theologian would disagree with a conservative theologian, whereas an Arminian theologian would disagree with a Reformed theologian. now, while Arminian and Reformed guys are brothers and deal with the in-house issue, a theologian who would claim unorthodox claims esp. about Jesus' divinity, are not to be considered secondary issues and "in-house issues" but to be avoided as a plague. simply, God gives us the freedom to apply science, logic, and the all the tools in interpreting such a complex and vast field of studies called theology. it's not "the queen of sciences" for nothing. and like in philosophy or science, you have divisions and people with different ideas. i don't see why is that wrong. you are not abandoning science bc different scientists have different thoughts, right?
@@TheNikolinho “o my... “ With this opener I’m wondering if you’re approaching this with judgment and a closed mind…but I’ll proceed with caution “from all the troubles in religion and in the world, you have an issue that there are different branches of theology? seriously?” Yes. I thought that was a given as to wondering what 1 Corinthians 14: 33 “For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.” means. Does it mean everyone is right? Wouldn’t that be cause for confusion? “we have our own volitional and cognitive ideas of how to analyze, dissect, and understand anything. “ Yes we do. So I’m wondering why you’re bothered by my post…unless you don’t consider my thoughts are not a cognitive idea…but then again, it was you who approached me after all. Hmmm, your response is so curious. “if you and i witness something, we may perceive or even understand it differently. that doesn't mean one of us is wrong as long as we keep the basics together.” I see your usage of “differently”as equivocation. It’s the basics that are in question. Are we to differentiate like we do in basic math? The sum of 5 isn’t anything other than 5. Are you saying the concept of “5” has more basic meaning than God? Are you saying there’s more than 1 NORTH? Remember it’s the context of 1 Cor:14:33 “secondary things….” Not until we establish the basics You know, we want to avoid confusion, right?
Not trying to belittle his experience at all, it just seems like Jon is desperate to believe in anything other than Christianity. I've been there, it makes me sad. I hope God can show up for him.
It's utterly strange that we expect a book to be able to talk to people in vastly different cultures, completely different consciousnesses, world views, etc, and still have anything interesting to say to all of these people. But there it is. God must necessarily speak within a frame er can perceive and which grabs our attention. We should not hold God to an logically impossible standard of talking to everyone through time at the same time. Plus, what the overarching message is, is not one of morality, how to live, or such, that is just the only thing that gets our attention. So the book intentionally sets up paradoxes for us to break out of that mentality, because that mentality IS THE FALL. But we still persist in our morality, even to the point of attributing it to God. No, love, the free giving of what is needed, to those who do not deserve it, is God's way, even if He has to suffer our thanking him for the devil's work. All to give us a chance at having love be its own reward, because that is simply what love does. Love doesn't stay its own, it gathers communities, does what ever is necessary to multiply, and give the gift, which only grows upon the giving. Faith is what is needed for the receiving of the gift, it doesn't mean some sort of intellectual understanding of any doctrine. But doctrines are often helpful, and indeed should be, to maintain a community within which us fallen humans beings can aspire to be like God.
Hi Morten…I deconstructed over several years. I really appreciate Christian’s who simple let faith be faith, committing themselves to discipleship rather than being “right” about science, history or philosophy. Thanks for sharing your viewpoint. I encourage your continued walk. One hopes your testimony will encourage more Christians to be the leaven too.
How can 3 apparently well educated men can discuss a subject that has no chance for verification except by the faith. This debate was an exercise in self indulgent prognostication. Only one person in this group had it anywhere close to reality.
i wish someone would press Jon on his explanation of this world. The overtly attempts at trying to agree on so much comes off kinda pathetic. I dont see it persuading in any way
Jon’s problem with God not preventing certain types of evil seems to lack a basic understanding of sin AND free will. He seems to think it’s ok to have some freedom but not ultimate freedom. His idea that he would do everything he can to stop his child from murdering another one is nothing different than what God has done. Sure, he doesn’t believe the Bible is divine at all but there is an indication in the Bible that sin is evil regardless of the degree. Remember what God told Cain, “…and if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. It’s desire is contrary to you, but you must rule over it.” Initially God created humans to rule over the earth. After the fall, then it was commanded to rule over sin as well. Also, what place would forgiveness have if God stopped all forms of evil and what would be the place of justice? God would have to eliminate all emotions for this to be possible.
God and parents cannot hover over children or humanity to prevent their abuse of freedom such as through harming others. That’s why God institutes law and governments, Romans 13. and our children should understand this: “ For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.”
Atheist here…my impression is that Josh is very aware of injustice. I got the impression that he is committed to wrestling with the God of Jacob rather than committing himself to a despair that could even arrive at suicide. Life under Construction rather than death in deconstruction. The Gospel narratives suggest that an historical Yesu would have understood that struggling. As you may know, Josh is the American vernacular equivalent of what the disciples called Jesus. Josh has chosen struggle rather than despair and one hopes the struggle continues. Yesu’s struggle ended in crucifixion, the love and inspiration others made of that event persevered. And , It was distorted, co-opted and diversified and adapted and institutionalized in ways Yesu would be utterly baffled to behold. Life struggles to be.
I often wonder why God created anything at all? And if he had a desire to create, why not just create free agents in heaven? Why put human beings (and other sentient creatures) through all of this bullsh*t?
God doesn't approve the pagan culture in the Bible, but it has been recorded to show how God pursued His people to help us not to follow other gods but Him.
The fact is that if you ride a plane to another country, it may crash yet you still do it. Another fact is that you trust (have faith) in the pilot, air traffic contoler, mechanic, laws of physics etc.
Faith is a word atheists abuse because they don't care what it actually means in the Bible. Because they don't care about spreading lies. Like you, Mr C. Face it, you're either lying or ignorant.
@@LosChongo “The substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things unseen”. You’re conflating “trust” with the biblical use of the word “hope”. The three are a package deal.
as a Christian that didnt grow up in the Church, it saddens me to hear ex Christians ask questions about slavery, sexual immorality, etc. that in my view are so elementary that it's hard for me to comprehend how you can grow up not asking these obvious questions and getting satisfactory answers. It just comes across so arrogant and self rightous for one to think they can possibly be more moral than God. It's like when people think they could never be nazis if they were Germans in that time period, yet during covid became absolute authoritarian tyrants turning on their neighbor and justifying their evil deeds by pretending to "care for their neighbor" or "science" when in reality they were merely being obviously selfish as they were either ruled by fear or wanted to elevate themselves by virtue signaling. I wish we didnt tip toe around these issues. The Godless have no better answers to anything thats important in our life experience. Not one
I’m godless. I follow some of your points but not others. I enjoy these conversations if you would like to talk about what saddens you. I too am saddened by what I see among many Christians.
@@cipherklosenuf9242 I'm also saddened by many Christians. First, lets understand that most people who claim to be Christian when asked are not actually devout. Theyre not commited to the word and actually dont even know the word. I'd be interested to know how you conclude the important things in life. Purpose, Justice, Mercy, Moral Authority, etc.
@@Godoverpolitics Regarding Devout Christians… Let’s agree that Christian is whatever you consider to be a real, devout Christian…if your view is remarkably unorthodox please clarify your meaning of Christian, but I’m familiar with the normal spectrum so we can roll with whatever you believe to be definitive of Christian. Great Question. Like everyone…upbringing, personality and life experiences shape us. Christianity had a big influence which I continue to value in many ways. I’m a farm raised American so ideological influence from that background. The Grange (a farmer’s union from the late 19th century) has a great motto: “In essentials,Unity; In non essentials, Liberty; In all things,charity (as in the King James so let’s say ‘caring’). As the discussion in this video suggests, much of what influenced my deconstruction had more to do with purpose, justice, mercy and moral authority than being opposed to it. For example, My ancestors rejected the divine right of kings and this is celebrated as virtue…. I reject the divinity of “the King” for reasons also considerate of right and true… “We hold these truths to be self evident…”
@@cipherklosenuf9242 God was saddened by the Isrealites request and persistance in having a king in the same way other Godless nations had kings. The reason why He was saddened was bc they failed to recognize that they didnt need kings and kingdoms on earth, they had Him. Same applies today. It's why Jesus is referred to as King of kings. To clarify what i mean by Christian, lets just keep it simple and say someone that has read the Bible and believes it.
The whole debate seems to be misguided. The problem comes from putting understanding before obedience. That's human nature though. We seek to understand, so we can control. It's all about power, not trust. “Men would understand: they do not care to obey,-understand where it is impossible they should understand save by obeying. “ - George MacDonald
The Bible warns of this self deception or foolishness appearing as wisdom to deceive, but the most important is from Matthew 18:3 "and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you change and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven." We need not do anything more than believe and trust and out of this we will keep His commands if we love Him. All of these deconstructionists sound wise and speak of wanting to understand more yet anything that takes us from accepting the Word of God as infallible is utter foolishness. I believe that we live in a world with unlimited access to information which can be good, but in this sense, it creates an arrogance that calls to question something beyond our ability. And because people cannot get an answer they dismiss God although there is nothing new under the sun and Job and the four did the same thing to only be met with questions they could not answer and neither did God answer. As for slavery, #1- get it out of the context that we know it to be. It was not racist. First, the culture, economy and world was different. Regarding the economy, we did not have corporations nor jobs. Life was agrarian or hunter and there was no mass production. Things needed to get done in order for life to continue and food to be processed. #2. Israel was ordered to not enslave their people. They made slaves of those they did not kill. I think the people were quite fine with being alive rather than being killed. (as for the Numbers 31 reference, there's no indication that Midianites were made into sex slaves. The context is that women who were virgins were to be kept alive and later they could be wives.It's lies like this by Jon that frustrate me because he's taken the words out of context.) #3 God ordered slaves to be freed in the year of Jubilee. #4 The culture we live in now regarding slavery is completely different than slavery during BC era and it's ridiculousness to compare our mindset with that over 3,000 years ago.
Very disappointed by Josh’s take on the Bible and it’s not being divine in authority. He sounds like a progressive christian smh. Both gentlemen kept saying “I feel” which is very subjective in how they come to a conclusion about God.
It is impossible for God to be evil or do evil...It is impossible for a being that created all things (reality in all its forms), owns all things, and sustains all things, to be or do evil...to question the goodness of God is to be oblivious to what the word God really means, subconsciously thinking u are evaluating a human being...should the reality, the full spectrum of what it truly means to be God ever don on you, you will realize that it is literally impossible for God to ever be or do evil No one has any rights before God, you dont have the right to life, u dont have the right to freedom, you have the right to absolutely nothing, do not put God Almighty in the same category as some human emperor or king or president, this is a being that is far above good and evil, far above material and immaterial things, The true one above all The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away, blessed be the name of the Lord
@@onionbelly_ in what way is it possible for a being that owns everything, created everything and sustains everything, to be evil? Everything is God’s property, in what way is God unjust if He does whatever He wishes to do with His property? Doesn’t He have the right to do that, seeing that it all belongs to Him? Evil is a product of Lack…God lacks nothing, God owns everything, so therefore it is impossible for God to be evil
Adam and Eve lacked certain things, which means God created an evil product based on your reasoning, and how can a perfect being create something faulty with the capacity to do evil, right?
Josh is pretty full of himself and apparently likes to hear himself talk. Not impressed. I'm tired of hearing the argument that you just need a degree in philosophy and theology to understand... Geez, what bunk. He claimed that is not his opinion but it sure sounded like it. I'm an agnostic, btw.
Ps 14:1 THE [empty-headed] fool has said in his heart, There is no God. Pretty sick and twisted tacit endorsement from polite, foolish Christian presenters. No rebuke? Can't do that - we might want him back again! Hey, yeah, cool! No God, eh, oh yeah we all sympathise with you... we understand your thoughtful denial. It's your truth... Love love. Oh, and we love your personal journey into apostacy...! You so smart Jon. Wow, you worked it out! For you it's your truth. How many True Continuums are there, Jon? You can't deconstruct that there is only One True Continuum. You don't need any religion or philosophy to understand that.
If you cannot see God then you do not know when he has intervened in your life and when he has not, appearance can be deceiving, as the Christ said, you judge by mere appearance can you not make a right judgement.
Hi GSP. I’m deconstructed over several years. What do you mean by “ Getting rid of God”? Based on your next post it seems to be just about indulging in free sex but perhaps you have more in mind that concern you regarding the motivation to deconstruct reliance on supernatural belief systems.
@@cipherklosenuf9242 Ya I do believe it has both the problem with a celestial dictator as Hitchens put it, a Cosmic authority problem as Thomas Nagel put it, and a desire to indulge in many different desires.
@@gsp3428 Hi GSP. Thanks for prompting me to look into those references. Hitchens has an abrasive, disagreeable personality. Celestial Dictator … would that describe Allah …but not Abba? Is Yesu not referring to HaShem as Abba? Not all Theists believe in a Celestial Dictator, but many do. Christians in the U.S. who want theocracy are in conflict with Christians who don’t. I favor democracy…or if you prefer….representative republics. Res Publica …The people are king. Yes, I have a problem with dictators justified by true believers in God (or true believers creating a “god” of their leader). I found an article in a Christian blog called Mockingbird about Nagel and Cosmic Authority. Thanks! I look forward to reading more from Nagel. I understand how this applies and I agree, and I can see how this would be frustrating for theists. One understands that there is much diversity and subtlety within Theism…one finds diversity within atheism as well. Personally I like to think that the whole is more than the sum of its parts…is that God? I like to think that a collective voice of “We are what we are” echoes as “I am that I am”…is that God? These are musings …poetry…we are the stuff of stars…rainbow connection…is that the Celestial Dictator? “A desire to indulge in many different desires” ..like just grab’em by the p#$$y…for example …gilded palaces… Porn stars…lying..fraud…all the sin stuff. I respect virtue, modesty, integrity, faithfulness to promises… Jesus drove the money changers out of the temple …I like that. Freedom doesn’t mean freedom from responsibility…that’s privilege…as in the privileged elite. Freedom means being responsible for what you do …choices have consequences … this requires no supernatural belief system, and is consistent with the idea of ‘deriving its just powers from the consent of the governed.” I believe that in Arabic the word “Secular” is translated as “godless” …I agree.
Unless you are an American evangelical who was brainwashed by the catholics to believe unbiblical things, there is no real problem with abortion. Did you know that the catholic church changed their opinion on when human life begins multiple times? Don't stray from the Bible. The Bible never equates the death of a child in the womb with murder.
BTW, the Bible teaches that children who disobey their parents should be stoned to death. You really think that the Bible cares about unborn children if their lives count for so little? That doesn't mean I'm for abortion BTW. But I'm pro choice. Only theocratic dictatorships think that's a bad thing.
If a man claims that he was once a Christian, he never was, these are the ones who go out from among us because they were not one of us in the first place, which means, these people were never born of the Holy Spirit, you cannot be born of light and then reject it, you would have to remove it to do so.
@@kellystone7501 I absolutely do agree with you. The holy spirit is not real not for you and I think that your should feel joy in knowing that death will be final for you and the rest of us will be with God. So rejoice! Spend this single life you ever have! So do all the filth you are so desperate to do and get validation for it by all other atheists who wants do the same. Even without god, you'd still be judged! This is what you want to hear right? :)
Slavery is not evil nor is it good it simply is, the moment you are under the law you are in slavery, the moment you have to do something you do not want to do, slavery, the whole world is under slavery it just depends what kind of slavery you are under, it is clearly seen that the slavery in the Old Testament with the Jews is a righteous slavery compared to the slavery of the blacks in America, this is clearly seen. People have to stop hearing the word slavery and putting an evil connotation to it, all those born of light Are Slaves to the Christ.
@@onionbelly_no I am a lot older than that however, I am talking about that slavery in itself is not necessarily an evil thing, I am a slave to Christ, I am a Slave to Love, I am a slave to righteousness, the list goes on, slavery of the blacks concerning America and England is a totally different slavering than that of the Romans and that of the Jewish people in the Old Testament, slavery in itself is not a crime, like I said, the moment you're under the law, slavery, your children go to school it is the law and they shall be punished in whatever way if they do not, slavery, yet is this kind of slavery not a righteous slavery, understand the moment you're under the law you are under slavery, you are a slave to many things, do you actually know what you are a slave to, you can be a slave to Pride to arrogance, a slave to lust, the list goes on.
The institution and practice of owning human beings as property and you saying that "I am a slave to my wife" is clearly not the same thing. You're just equivocating. More importantly, you seem to have not read the part in the Bible where it explicitly lays out different rules for treating Gentile slaves. You can own them for perpetuity, beat, sell, and pass them down to your children as family inheritance. If you think this is "totally different" and "righteous" compared to the slavery of antebellum U.S., then you seriously have a primitive mind. Oh, and stop using the term "blacks", it's a derogatory term. Take care.
@@onionbelly_ the term slavery is neither good or evil that is the term, you simply did not understand my comment, ignorance falls.on you not me. Because you still didn't understand it.
@@TempleofChristMinistries Again, words don't always have only one single usage, and no one can understand your argument because it's essentially fallacious. Get well soon, sir.
What an absolutely first-rate, and actually useful discussion. Thanks to all of you for such intelligent and enlightening talk. The show has inspired me to ponder anew some matters I thought I'd already resolved. Thanks again.
This was one of the best conversations I have seen on this show and on UA-cam in general. Each guest seemed an open and honest seeker of truth and showed each other a good amount of respect. Justine did not have to jump in much at all; well done.
I love when you have returning guests. It’s great to hear about their journey and how they’ve grown.
Arguably the best conversion that I’ve seen in Unbelievable…and I’ve seen most. Thank you for this
Great episode. Both the guests are thoughtful and honest.
I suspect for a lot of people, deconverting from Christianity is not an active decision. It's not like quitting an overbearing job at a fastfood restaurant where one might say, _"I'm fed up with this stuff, I'm done!"_
Usually a person wants to believe, but they keep finding errors, inconsistencies, and contradictions. That's coupled with the realization of supernatural events in the Bible being likely to never have happened. Eventually, the person literally can no longer believe even if they want to.
Yeah… but so sad, when there’s so much at stake.
I mean, God sent His Son to Earth as one of us to save us, for heaven’s sake!!! There must be a good reason for something that extreme 😮
I was so encouraged to hear about both these men who grew up with the simplistic… “The Bible tells me so” …finding each other’s intellectual rigour. So glad they could share that with us.
I come from a different background, and got a deep identity in scholarship, not pop materialism. With that, I´ll just share that raised atheist humanist, I learned from my dad´s focus on businesspeople´s abuse of power. My dad left his mainline denomination because of what he called its "violent history." But, no demonizing scapegoating other than that. Religion was just another subject of interest for me as I started.
I got my college degree in Bio Anthropology, looking at how we human animals began using symbols, and that has been a powerful tool and communication vehicle. As I started an interfaith path thanks to my dad´s copy of scholar Huston Smith´s book and Unitarian Universalist interfaith, I also gave spiritual-religious phenomena and knowledge its space.
Psychosomatic healing gets into modern medically attested, medically impossible healing with spiritual-religious testimony. OC Simonton MD´s Healing Journey is great. Among others. The Catholics are actually good with that. Christian Science, too. Craig Keener wrote a great book in 2011. Among some others.
And with Carl Jung´s kind of focus on spiritual experience angles, visionary experiences are a key. Thus, if Moses´ plagues and Red Sea parting etc were all natural events, the synchronizing with Moses´ experiences is pretty incredible.
The U of Virginia´s Dept of Perceptual Studies is doing great work. Ideological materialism is not the truth. Personal effort in spiritual practice is more the key issue, and understanding a modern empirical approach. And UN human rights and sustainability is what is ultimately at stake. I id as an interfaith UU Quaker Christian aka Gandhian, who draws lots on Buddhism and Christian Science, plus. Freedom of Religion for individuals getting educational is where the full truth lies, and progressive Christianity is well along in many ways, although often not all.
This is definitely true. Deconstruction is something that happens to someone more than something they choose.
That being said, I returned to faith after deconstruction, after being exposed to evidences for Christianity I had never heard before.
My faith is still rocky and I’m still finding new doubts. But deconstruction is not the inevitable end. Reconstruction is possible.
@@repentantrevenant9776 that’s so good to read. I’m so happy for you!
Hang in there… endurance to the end is rewarded, our Saviour revealed.
These "supernatural" events not only happened (in the past), they continue today... especially healing.
Check out Craig Keener's massive and well-documented volume on this!
Just as an old Englishman, always struggling with these questions and watching, these days, the arguments unfold on youtube, I am so often impressed (and this is a shining example), with the depth of knowledge, thought and commitment evidenced by relatively young Americans. I don't see much of the trite, UK / European "I am an atheist, it's all nonsense, let's move on" - but on all sides are people who have thought hard, who have textual understanding, and who remain open to debate. Whatever else being "raised in Church" does to a person, it seems to me clearly to equip them better to think on these issues than does the typical upbringing of young people here. Well done to both of you.
What an absolutely beautiful conversation. Wow
Another great conversation! Josh's book is great.
1:16:32 I just wanted to say I always love hearing Josh talk! I can’t believe I haven’t heard this talk yet.
I’m a “deconstructionist former-church punk”😅 I fell in love with theology/ philosophy and read lots of different. As I fully respect Pastor Josh, I think he’s an “enlightened Christian”.
I don't want to sound simplistic, but I believe our ways are not God's ways. It is my conviction after a lifetime of Bible study that God does not "fudge" anything. That is why he literally had to send his Son to solve the problem of sin and justification. I think Jon wants God to intervene and make it all better, but God knows that will not solve the separation problem.
Absolutely fantastic conversation👏👏👏
I love Jon Steinhard's honesty. It's a shame that for using his own mind that most evangelicals think he will go to some torturous dungeon forever! However, a very respectful dialogue.
My friend, it's with great sadness that I believe many will spend eternity in Hell. Those who rebel against God's Love are in great danger. I am not Jon's judge. But to walk away not just from Christianity, but from the Person of Christ, the Lover of our souls is a tragic thing. Yet, let God be true and every man a liar. He knows better than us
@@foodforthought8308 Hmmmm. Love me or burn is not love. It is abuse.
@David Dibben I hear you, but I think you are missing the point, which ironically is LOVE. As St John puts it, God is Love. Perfect love is to give up one's life for your friends. And while we were enemies, Christ loved us enough to suffer torture and crucifixion for us. The issue is that we are ultimately not loving. We are not patient, kind, selfless, humble, long suffering, ect. We don't realize the horror of our sin, the manifestation of our rebellion against God's love, the ugliness of which is tangibly expressed in Christ 's broken body on the cross. Christ did not need to die in this way; rather we needed Him to. We need to be spiritually reconciled to Love and rescued from the wide road to destruction. But it is His desire that all will be saved. He Sacred Heart is broken for those who refuse, clinging instead to eternal isolation from God and self
@@foodforthought8308 Maybe you know the wrong people? I know some very kind people. X
@@foodforthought8308 Careful there. Only something finite can be turned away from.
Bravo to all three...respectful, vulnerable and humble!
Good conversation, I grew up listening to Christian bands so I heard both the bands these growing up and where they have wound up in their faith is very interesting! I have personally had struggles with my faith at times and it's useful to hear about others struggling too.
Again, Great conversation. I'm with Jon on this one. I found myself in the midst of deconstruction and really didn't want to be! I agree with what he says about wanting there to be a God, and how you loose so much when you leave Christianity. It's been the hardest thing I've ever been through, but yet the most liberating and life giving. Reconstruction a meaningful and purposeful life afterwards is very very hard. But I can't leave the conversation... hence why I'm watching this video! Fascinating stuff.
You're not alone. I de-converted two weeks before Christmas 2022 after growing up from birth in the faith. I just turned 37 in January so I was a Christian for 30+ years. Luckily my study into textual and source criticism caused my wife to question and leave the faith with me (technically a month before I did funnily enough). We have 8 children together (still living at home) so that would have been hard to be _unequally yoked._
I agree with everything you said. It is a hard road ahead but its yoke is easier and its burden is lighter. I feel almost born-again now that I left the faith. I had plans to go to seminary after my kids got older and maybe become a pastor or teacher. Even though I no longer believe in the Bible, I find myself loving to study it even more now than I did before. I still try to engage in theological and logic debates with Christian friends and family but they're still drinking the Kool-Aid and suffer from _cognitive dissonance_ and subjective _confirmation biases._
How long were you a believer and how long have you been away from the Jesus cult?
@@icypirate11 Hi. I was in it from birth, heavily involved in church with worship leading since I was 16 (36 now).
It all started to fall apart slowly as I entered a period of poor mental health back in 2018 after a health scare resulting in PTSD, but signs of something happening were there a couple years earlier still.
The pressure I put on myself to lean on my faith slowly lead me into depression when it just didn't work. Then with the birth of our 3rd child, and my wife being hospitalised towards the end of the pregnancy, right at the beginning of the first lockdown, I had loads of time to think about it all.
Long story short - I tried to find a route back into christianity by deeply studying it, much like yourself by the sounds of it. Then, as you'll know, the jenga tower soon fell!
3 years on, (with the help of self administered psychedelic therapy!) - I genuinely feel the best I ever have done. I'm a better husband, father, and general human. My wife is on a similar path too.
But I still can't escape the fascination with this thing that captivated me for 30 years!
This was a great conversation I really enjoyed this. I am a late convert (at age 39 in 2013) and then I deconstructed my faith in 2017 and walked away from Christianity and my faith until the Lord sought me through dreams and visions in 2019. I now attend The Sanctuary Downtown which is a Christian Universalist Church in Denver, CO. God takes us each on our own journey. For me the idea of eternal conscious torment was just too dissonant with the God who saved me while in a same sex marriage and in much sexual sin with men. I am sure heads are spinning. However, I am very happy 9 years post salvation that Jesus is still the Lord of my life and that Jesus saves. God is salvation. What happened on the cross was the greatest act of love ever. God is desperately in love with all of us. We are all his children and we are each made in the image of God. Heaven is real and hell is restorative and God is love and his wrath ends in the reconciliation of all things which includes all people. Hallelujah much love to you all.
Breaks my heart to read your post, Cara. It seems you have rejected the Word of God and constructed something more to your liking, in effect making a god in your own image.
Jesus warned us of false and seductive "Christs" more palatable to the unregenerate heart. He also solemnly warned us of the reality of an everlasting Hell of our OWN choosing. He came to save us from this, to save us from ourselves. He was punished in our place. Divine retribution fell upon the sinless Son of God so that the gracious offer of pardon and restoration could be extended to us. The Lord Jesus explicitly and repeatedly spoke of the eternal separation of the redeemed from the unrepentant wicked. Many will despise the Cross and contemptuously and finally refuse the remedy for their sin. This is the indelible testimony of the Holy Scriptures. We ignore it at our peril. We also run the risk of being found guilty of misleading others, which is a terrible thing.
Please reconsider before it's too late.
This was so enjoyable to listen with all the amicable disagreements. Also, I absolutely love this new more than 1 hr format. More time to go in depth on the issues.
Every time I hear these deconstrucion stories, I'm so grateful that I had a personal encounter with Jesus when I was so young. At 10 years old. I could never deny what that was. It was God reaching out to me when I had never even heard any doctrine. The rest of my life I've spent getting to know the God that had reached out to me and I've continued to know him more and more. It was never about doctrine or theology when I was a child. It was about the love of God touching me. That's not something I could ever deconstruct. In fact, I've gone on for decades constructing my life around it, learning the doctrine and theology that goes with the God I already knew.
If only your god would do this for everyone
@@patdainel9037 How would you respond if Jesus Christ showed up at the foot of your bed this evening?
@@krizilloo2538 pretty creeped out. But overall happy. I feel like John steingard; I want there to be a tri-omni god. I just don’t believe there is one. And it would take Jesus showing up and doing something to convince me. Not theological arguments, not a warm fuzzy feelings.
@@patdainel9037 It happens. It happened with two of my friends.
@@krizilloo2538 that’s great. Never happened to me
I would pushback on what Jon was saying at the end by saying that psychology has shown that most people who do evil things think that they are good or even that their actions are good. But does everyone ask God to reveal himself over against our own ideas? I think that's more rare.
Regarding what Josh said, the beauty and artistry of the Bible is what also draws me in. The Chosen finale this week really reminded me of this - drawing on a Psalm that includes metaphor and history, and then relating that to the lives of Peter and David in the episode, to give a small answer to the problem of evil through this crazy, over-the-top miracle of Jesus walking on water. I'd just have to say I love it. Only God existing makes sense of art in the world like this. And I realized later the Psalm was also about Jesus' return - giving an answer to future pain. It's all just madness. I love it.
I was really surprised by how much I enjoyed this conversation. Excellent tone and charitable discussion with a pretty decent grasp on some tough issues. I listened on my Saturday long run, and paused to listen to some of the music of both bands during the tempo portion of my run. I enjoyed both bands. However, I can now totally understand why Jon would feel weird opening for Showbread at Cornerstone. Blessings to you both!
Love Josh, his humility, and his outlook on God and the Bible. What a great conversation. It made room for personal journey and exploration. I must say that as I learned more about the Bible and all the interpretations christians disagree on, I do wonder why the Bible isn’t clear on lots of topics. What does this mean? What does this say about God? I have come to appreciate the complexity of humans and the complexity of God. But all of it reflects God and his immeasurable and infinite wisdom. We have a great God!
This was such a respectful conversation from people who don’t agree on things, but do agree on other things. A refreshing model for all things in life where there isn’t total agreement but intelligent and respectful discussion.
Something that stood out to me on the subject of evil - the deceiving of Eve and Adam who was with her (Genesis 3:6). Then in Genesis 3:14-15, God spoke directly to the serpent (Satan) and cursed him.
I wrestle all the time with a Good God allowing us to choose his way vs choosing the sparkly way of Satan and the consequences that follow. That’s a simplistic view to some very real and gigantic questions, issues, and problems however it is the very first tiny step in moving from a belief to living out my faith.
The theologians Brad Jersak and Pete Ennes have been really helpful for me in understanding how to read the Bible in a way that makes sense.
So glad!! 👏🏽✔️❤️
Pete Ennes books “How the Bible Acturally Works” “The Bible Tells me So” Brad Jersak’s books “A More Christlike Word” “A More Christlike God”
I really appreciated the thoughtfulness of this discussion. The open dialogue about both the simplicity and complexity of the Bible is something that truly is something we’ll likely wrestle for a lifetime.
Josh hits on the depth of complexity we have to wrestle through when we consider things like violence, slavery, etc…
These kinds of discussions make me think of the book of Job. After everything, Job is shaking his fist at God and God calls him out on just how small his understanding is of the world. Job breaks down realizing he has such a limited lens and view into things that it’s truly impossible to even begin to imagine how all things come together. What can seem obvious in our time-limited and narrow understanding quickly becomes overwhelmingly complicated when we begin considering it on an eternal and completely interconnected level.
Where it seems these two have come to different conclusions is based on where they put their faith. Josh has surrendered himself to faith in God’s promises and goodness. Jon seems to have put his faith in his own ability assess and interpret things.
Ultimately it all comes down to the Genesis 3 choice. Will we choose to surrender and put our faith in God or believe in our own ability to do better?
It’s not a contest. This is about identity and personification of our species as pertaining to human value and purpose.
The addition of a deity adds little to the reality and subsequent facts of this endeavor.
@@mr.c2485, I’m not trying to suggest it’s a contest. I’m suggesting it’s a choice, which can be seen in the origin story of sin.
Perhaps it made no sense to Adam and Eve why a good God wouldn’t let them eat a fruit that would help them discern between good and evil. Rather than choose to trust God, they chose that they knew better.
Where will we choose to put our faith? In ourself or God. At the end of the day, it’s a choice we all have to make.
I was simply pointing out that it seems apparent from the dialogue where both Josh and Jon fall on that choice.
With regards to Gen 3
It’s strange to consider knowing the difference between good and evil to be something God would take issue with. It’s as if God’s perfect purpose was to keep his creation ignorant of the moral consequences of their actions. Very odd…
Justin's rolodex is truly impressive. I'm amazed at the guests he finds. :)
I absolutely agree 100% with Jon Steingard regarding evil. As he pointed out, Numbers 31 on it's own is reason enough to question God's "all loving" motif. Was he looking down from Heaven as Moses's army slaughtered the Midianites, .. while "all those virgin girls who have not known a man, .. keep alive for yourselves" The mind boggles.
...Verisimilitude...the Living God actually lived in the brutal Bronze Age...the Canaanites were pagan
"Pain-in"ites...ritual child killers...could anything be more evil? ...So even the cruel pagan Romans wanted the Phoenicians exterminated, due to their practice religious infanticide...so they also, entered into a life and death cultural struggle, with colonial Canaanites, for over a Hundred of years...finally geocide-ing the Canaanites once and for all, at Carthege in 146 AD....
Besides the Bible's Killing the Canaanites was Awesome...it makes Conan the Barbarian look like Comic Books..young boys love all that unsissyfied stuff...
@@anarchorepublican5954 what credible evidence do you have that they were child killers, the Caananites were a sophisticated nation from the things I've read, I've also seen examples of their artistry and design at the Ashmolian museum in Oxford UK.
@@bonnie43uk ...oh yes, the Phoenicians were very sophisticated, but they were still addicted to child sacrifice...Canaanites believed that flame roasting, their prized posterity, to be the pagan secret of their prosperity.
Both the Bible and the Roman accounts confirm this...the highest sacrifice was the infant son of a noble or chieftain "passed thru the fire"👶🏽☛🔥🗿...it was considered a near guarantee of soldiering success..
If I memory serves, colonial Canaanite King Hannibal, of Carthage, himself sacrificed his son, just before he invaded Europe with his Elephants...
Archaeology has also stablished this, numerous sacred temple urns have been uncovered with charred sacrificial infant remains...
When this keep in from of mind, in it's full historical cultural context...
I find it rather "deconstructs"..all the anachronistic HAThEist angst and baseless moralizing....
It merely means the text is historically accurate...
@bonnie43uk Sophistication is not the issue. Evil and the giving into demonic forces is. The Tanakh is explicit regarding the crimes of the Canannite nations which go well beyond literal demonic child sacrifice. Enoch also offers an interesting perspective. Unfortunately, these crjmes which provoke God's judgment far too closely mirror the accepted crimes of sphisticated Western modern culture.
@@bonnie43uk Same! How do I know that you're also not lying out of your asshole?
Dave from hawk nelson came from Boise he played in a local band called a Rotterdam in November I hope John nothing but the best wish him and Jason and everyone could've had reunion
As a born again, I find through binging of UA-cam Christian videos, channels, testimonies. Around the time of deconstruction, there’s this rise of people finding faith in Christ.
This was EXCELLENT. Thanks guys!
Such a good defense of free will..."We do provide full autonomy, we also provide consequences, not pro-active restrictions." The very fact that we have in us a capacity for Justice is fascinating.
Even though Josh is a believer, he is a completely different type of believer from the religious people I grew up around.
So if absolutely nothing else, it seems like religion is sort of constantly deconstructing itself.
And I'm here for it.
As an outsider looking at American evangelicalism, I can very well understand that people leave the faith or their church or deconstruct. A lot of it looks totally crazy and very often there seems to be a thriving biblical and cultural illiteracy among “Christian” Americans.
It doesn’t shake my faith, but it breaks my heart when those so blessed by God, turn away. I grew up in church but had doubts from my early teens. Listening to these young men helps me to understand how and why this happens. My experience was very much the opposite - constructed one tiny stone at a time until my faith became unshakable. The first little building block came out of a nervous habit when I was 21. I walked everywhere and pulled leaves off bushes and tore them into tiny pieces leaving a trail of organic confetti wherever I went. One day I stopped dead in my tracks and looked at the leaf I was about to destroy. I looked around with wonder at the trees, the grass, bushes, flowers, and simply knew that I was not looking at some cosmic accident, but incredible design. 54 years have passed since that first tiny step. Eventually those steps led me beyond believing in a Creator to the God of the Bible. I found my way to this discussion wondering what happens after faith that seemed once strong is lost. This is a wonderful discussion.
He simply is no longer convinced. He can no more choose to believe than you can choose not to. Here's a thought experiment. Set a timer for 5 minutes and while it is running believe that god does not exist. When the alarm goes off return fully to faith. Ridiculous, right? I can detect no resistance only sincer questions and reasoning. He is a non resistant unbeliever as far as I can see. That wrecks christainity, I get it. I used to think there really was no such thing as an athesit. Now that I am one, I know I was completely wrong. Take you time, there is no hurry. A mustanrd seeds faith is all that is needed to move mountains. You can't choose what you are conviced of but you can take a moment to empathise with those who sincerly struggle with faith. Make that choice and enjoy a new found freedom from judging others and, ultimately yourself. Peace, be free.
Thanks for sharing!
it is difficult to work through all the problems which might arise when you work the bible morality through by your self or especially when you have to personally chase through the authorities on the many possible issues
Oof this one was a rough listen. I have no idea why Josh just went with a lot of Jon's premises. It's one thing to empathize but to affirm them is in the end , unloving.
In the end, it's also mostly a heart issue. "You would think God would have done things according to my expectations. Therefore he doesn't exist" is not a rational argument. It's pride. It's wanting emancipation, independence, because "I know the way from here." In a way that's what the whole secular culture is all about and he is a product of it.
I so agree.
If you sincerely understood Jon to have said anything remotely close to that, then it's not surprising why this conversation would've been rough for you to listen.
I acknowledge that while I’m an atheist who was never exposed to being taught I should believe in a god by virtue of where I was born & grew up I’ve been influenced by Christianity and some of its values. Therefore I consider myself to be a culturally Christian atheist. I don’t know if future generations will be like me if religion continues to fall out of favour. I certainly no longer try to convince Christian’s it’s not true. But I have taught my now adult kids that there’s some ideas that come from Christianity are worth preserving & passing on even if the central claims of devine beings aren’t persuasive. They’re having their own kids now so I hope I succeeded & they are passing on those ideas.
Really enjoyed both Josh and Jon's conversation. My own experience is quite similar to Josh's, so perhaps I need to pick up his book.
A couple thoughts to throw into the mix, mostly pertaining to Jon's counter arguments to Josh's assertions regarding the potential of reconstruction.
First, I noticed a couple inconsistencies. At one point Jon suggests that if God were to speak universal morals into the world by way of a book that we would expect the Bible to look differently than it does. But then he also suggests that the sort of moral he does accept emerges in a world that looks very much like he describes the Bible- inconsistent, contextualized, emergent, limited, ect ect.
I might challenge his presumption that we would or should expect the Bible to look differently than it does by asking, if it is true that God spoke (and speaks) into the world in time and place, would/should we not expect this to then be communicated through the context of time and place? Wouldn't it be made sense of through the limiting nature of language and culture? If it is fair to qualify what we call morals as the true image and nature of God, would think the burden is on Jon to demonstrate what a world would like in which God reveals a singular truth that translates equally to all people in all places and in all times. I think the burden is also on Jon to demonstrate how and why he can trust a moral framework and reality that emerges apart from a true, revealed source in ways that are demonstrably inconsistent, far from uniform and limited, perceivably, to us modern humans limited to the 21st century whom have finally figured it all out. Its worth noting too that so much of what Jon was saying seems hyper focused on christianity as a book. If it is true that there are better ways of speaking about what scripture is and how to be good readers of it, then it seems the piece that Jon is missing is that of the spirit. If we believe that truth is accessed through a fusion of experience, Tradition, community and scripture, and if we believe in the importance of study, then textual criticism should simply be a way into the world of the text, not undermining our ability to access truth about it. If we believe God spoke and speaks into the world, then it makes sense to me to see scripture simply as a the words of those who believed God spoke into their midst, who struggled to make sense of that amidst their own awareness of and study of Tradtion, community, experience and scripture.
The other inconsistency was when Jon was talking about the problem of evil and suggesting that we should expect that a world in which God is not simply relegated to residing on top of the mountain and distanced from our day to day experiences would essentially move to rid and save all people from suffering in all places and wll times. Again, this is not the world he sees though when he looks at reality absent of God or gods, thus the burden is on him to demonstrate why and how the problem of evil is solved in any other view and why its existence should necessarily undermine the existence of God but not the existence of human goodness and value.
Just on this same front, I would add this to my own thinking surrounding that issue. I actually agree with Jon to a point on the matter of liberty. Except I would suggest that there is no such thing as a completely free will. Rather what we find are people shaped by external realities and acting in relationship to such realities. This is why a theology of the spiritual Powers enslaving creation is a necessary starting point for any discussion of the will and Evil. If by Powers we simply mean Evil as a very real agency (we are not speaking of traditional concepts of satan and hell in other words), then what this means is that the problem of evil is primarily systemic in nature. This at least allows us to move out into the world without making humanity or nature the evil agency. It also means that what we should/would expect God to do is deal with what is a systemic problem so that true liberty can actually be enacted on the basis of our participation in one reality or another (a reality where the Powers have been defeated and one where they have not).
I think their conversation on the Bible really boils down to this:
If the Bible was written by men and inspired by God, it would be something wholly different than it is today. It would have a quality to it that no other literature has to it. It would condemn slavery, it wouldn’t be brutal, it wouldn’t have genocide in its pages, et al.
On the other hand, if the Bible was written by human beings and not inspired by God, it would look just like it does…filled with errors, inconsistent ethics and competing and often times contradictory voices.
This is something I could never get away from when I was a Christian. I wished the Bible was a better document to rest my faith upon, it simply wasn’t.
Totally agree. It's exactly the type of text one would expect if it was compiled by humans over time.
Another reason for my deconstruction was I couldn’t grasp the idea of salvation… under any other context, abandoning the ownership of my culpability and personal responsibility is absolutely disgusting but for some reason that is acceptable in Christianity???
Ownership? Culpability? Personal responsibility? Who are you to tell others what constitutes these abstract ideas? Your idea of these concepts in the worldview you reside in holds as much weight as the gas that I pass.
@@felixthecat1974
“Ownership? Culpability? Personal responsibility? Who are you to tell others what constitutes these abstract ideas? “
Ummm, what did I say about what constitutes these abstract ideas?
“Your idea of these concepts in the worldview you reside in “
What is it??? You forgot to explain that bit
“holds as much weight as the gas that I pass.”
I guess that means you don’t put as much stock in integrity as I do. Cool.
@@felixthecat1974 Wait, are you saying the Christian concept of “Salvation” is an abstract idea. That salvation can BE anything anyone wants it to mean?
That’s just WAY TOO convenient
Please don’t say that’s what you’re saying…please!!!!!!
@@felixthecat1974
I’m tripping on the level of your failure.
My post said “Another reason for 👉my 👈deconstruction was 👉I 👈couldn’t grasp the idea of salvation… “
You asked me “ Who are you to tell others what constitutes these abstract ideas”
I was speaking for myself
Was this a slip, a glaring error revealing YOUR projection?
You have to own it though in order to put your faith in Jesus for salvation, as far as I see it. Otherwise there would be no reason to. I guess the question doesn't make sense to me because it makes the ownership of my sin all the more horrifying.
To add a little to the free will discussion, another problem many Christian’s have is that they equate free will with the ability to do evil.
To give an analogy of why this a bad equivocation, I currently do not have the ability to start flying with my free will. Yet I still have free will, even though I lack certain abilities.
In the same way, many paraplegic’s lack the ability to physically move their body, and therefore cannot physically harm people. But most Christians would still grant they have free will.
I could lack the ability to preform harmful actions on other people yet still retain all the other elements of free will I have currently. Most notably someone could still chose wether or not to have a relationship with Christ while lacking the ability to harm others.
It's a good point, but you are describing the world before the fall, so your point doesn't rule out the God of the Bible. Humanity lacked the ability to harm others while choosing to be in right relationship with God at the beginning. But it is a consequence of knowing evil (choosing to abandon that relationship with God) that one then can harm others. Because that choice plunged creation into the possibility of evil choices, only the God-man could bring the possibility of destroying that evil into play - a being who is man and only good; His free will restores us.
Christians will tell you it is impossible for Jesus to sin, without realizing that this is a refutation of free will. If God himself cannot betray his own nature, how can man? Are we freer than he?
@Sara That's not the Christian position. I find most free will objections to be disingenuous "gotcha" type one-ups far removed from everyday human experience, where right and wrong are freely chosen, resulting in legitimate delight and guilt. Maybe there's a genuine existential wrestling I'm missing here
@@valeried7210 unfortunately this misses the point a little bit. We do live in a world where certain types of evil exist, yet we could live in a world where these evils do not exist while still retaining all the important elements of free will. That’s why free will is not a good excuse for evil.
It is possible that God still exists and the types of evil we see still exist. But it does rule out that the God of the Bible has certain Omni attributes assigned to him by classical theism.
There may be other theodicies that do a better job at getting around this however, but the free will theodicy is inherently flawed in my view.
@@dillanklapp I think the evils directly reflect the opposite of goods which are in keeping with God's character. So the evil that does exist is a reflection of rebellion against God.
This was a great conversation. I do wonder about Josh's reliance on "faith" as a pathway for believing claims without evidence, especially claims that sound absolutely fantastical (e.g., a supposed spiritual realm where lesser gods and demons live and play and spill over into our reality) given there's zero evidence for the existence of this place? I guess my question would be, why believe these claims?
H&M has just dropped it's offer for sponsorship.
I appreciate the open dialogue, truly. However, 💔 The absolute tap dancing and sidestepping in defense of biblical slavery is appalling. I can understand how many believers can go without knowing / examining these passages for a long time. But once they know.... ? If you return to the faith without having resolved this, it is equivalent to saying "sh-t happens. Let's ignore it and believe anyway." We all need to listen to videos of excuses like this to inoculate ourselves against thinking Christians are safe or Christianity is moral. Heartbreaking.
What I think is interesting is that in their 30s they can assume that this is the final place they are resting before they die. I am 53 and am still transforming in numerous ways. This idea that you can go through a couple difficult things in your 20s and then write a book after it seems opportunistic.
Is hawk Nelson still a band?
Very good conversation. Thanks, Justin, for all you do!!
I would encourage John to keep reading the Word of God, OT and NT together- Jesus is there from beginning to end in the beginning of creation, prophesied after the fall, prophesied by the prophets, pictured in sacrifices and festivals... When he came, he fulfilled the law perfectly, he was our lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. He walked among men, spent time with the disciples who witnessed all that he did and who testified to it. The pharisees did not recognize him as the one Israel was waiting for, although they did know who he claimed to be-God the Son, Messiah, which is why they wanted him put to death. The disciples and followers knew he died, was buried and rose again-they saw him alive. John weird that he wrote his gospel app that we would believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and that by believing we may have life in his name. Paul testified to his meeting with Jesus and his total turn around because he knew the Truth.
All scripture works together to support the biblical story of God, Us, our falling short, our consequence for sin, Jesus'provision to save us...God did provide boundaries like parents do-men and women pushed those boundaries from the start (they had 1 rule to follow!) and wanted their own way, which led to consequences that came. Time and time again, God would rescue the Israelites (read the book of judges folks) they'd be for God and then quickly devolve into idolatry and huge sin. Same cycle I go through in my life daily! Don't give up, John! I see many people deciding to leave Christianity because they don't like the way God is, what he seems to be like, what He's doing, or how He's doing things-they seem to get into some mix of Buddhism, humanism, new ageism- mostly me-ism... That leads them all to come up with whatever version of god they like.
I can't possibly, with my little mind, understand the infinite eternal God. All I know is that I don't need to. He knows the beginning to the end, He is perfect in Love, Mercy, Grace, Justice, Power, etc. He shows us through His Word who He is, who we are, tells us the solution, even tells us it's offered to all but most will not choose Him. That part is not on Him, the accepting salvation by faith part is on us.
The more I read the Old Testament, the clearer the New Testament becomes.
As far as the part they talked about in how a parent is, this is what I have to say on that as a parent. Yes, I would step in and rescue my child but at some point, they will push outside our boundaries, just as mine did. They have free will and make choices that are sometimes costly or hurtful in the consequences that come. It is sometimes in these hurtful, painful, dark times that we add parents learn to rely on God and also our children can learn to rely on God. We don't know the future or what some of these things can accomplish in a life or in the timeline of history, but I can live in the knowledge that God does. If it lives were perfect and pain free, why would we need God or faith? There are people & books out there that can help you walk through questions, doubts, hurts.
I believe one day as the scriptures says "we will know as we are known" that is, it will all be clear to us that the God of Israel did not approve of slavery (and other evils that seem to be condoned in the bible) but that the lord was in a sense 'stuck with us' as his only day-to-day means of getting stuff done and that meant that he had to be cleaver by working with what he had (i.e with a people who's practise of slavery (servitude - not chaddle slavery!) was a part of the culture) to get them to a place where one day it would be ended by the masses (it still goes on today!) We cannot sit in the heavens and look down on ancient people and judge them by our stadards as if we were god knowing the begging from the end! Read Dennis Prager's books on the Torah and you will learn wisdom like this and many others.
Sounds like a pretty weak God if he couldn’t clearly indicate that rape and murder of innocents was wrong.
It will be too late by then. We need a “god appearance “ NOW! Why the hiddeness?
@@mr.c2485 Why the arrogance?
@Dave the Brahman If that's your honest take away from studying in depth the entire Tanakh, taking into full account the ancient near east culture, then something is wrong. The God of the Jews, the one true God of the Universe, explicitly condemns rape and the murder of innocents in the Torah. Don't you realize that's what Sodom and Gomorrah was in many ways about? The call to war in order to supernaturally drive out and exterminate (a command which Israel did not fulfill) deeply corrupt nations was His judgment. The healthy Jewish sense of the fear of God is missing today, as is the healthy "wrestling" of Israel.
@@foodforthought8308 Thanks for your response. The Tanakh is a collection of books, almost all of which present a God who constantly does deeply immoral things. Most interaction between peeple and Yahweh seem to end in murdered innocent children. People don’t see this because they are blinded by theology. The whole business of ‘Eastern literature’ is remarkable; what apologists are saying is that their ancient texts are no better than the boastful, lying edicts of Assyrian and Egyptian kings. The slavery ordained by God is chattel slavery, Yahweh says this explicitly in Exodus 21:21.
It doesn't seem like there is a great deal of scriptural understanding here, particularly on topics like slavery and ethics in general. I was pretty disappointed with that aspect of the interview
Which scriptures?
@@mr.c2485 the only real Scriptures. The Bible
Yeah same I thought there could have been more elaboration and discussion.
Living life in service of the good, but who gets to decide whats good? how did that idea of what's good get into our mind?
From an atheist perspective, One finds concepts of good throughout human cultures, it’s functional and adaptive. The trouble is we tend to value goodness more among “us” and not toward “them”. Cultures determine what is “doing good” and this continues to be negotiated and challenged…this is necessary to respond as conditions change.
Jesus is not the only person to ever offer ethical teaching …and how well Christianity is doing in advocating for the ethics of Jesus is remarkably diverse and debatable.
@@cipherklosenuf9242 how can we trust any culture to know what good is? one culture's good isnt good in another culture, so how can we know we're pursuing any good beyond what we've convinced ourselves is good (however well we allow ourselves to trust our own mind). It leads to pretty heinous places like crusades, etc.
That's a great question ."Good" and "evil" are certainly inherently human concepts (labels we use to describe human behaviors). So ultimately, the collective we of humans decide what we call "good" and for most of us with otherwise healthy brains, good means spreading peace, calm, happiness, health, and generally alleviating the suffering of other creatures while "evil" means spreading conflict, chaos, sadness, disease, and generally inflicting suffering on other creatures.
@@RLBays but why are those things good to a healthy brain? its a turtles all the way down situation where we have no real basis for calling something good or bad
@@CodyVanRyn The Crusaders we’re told they were doing good and God was on there side.
Point taken. How can we not trust a culture to determine what is good? That’s what one sees if one believes that people are responsible for what we do or do not do. One who believes evil spirits and good spirits are at war and we our pawns or whatever may argue for a version of supernatural authority which they are convinced is reality. From outside their worldview it always appears to be the reality they created of themselves.
Here we are. What challenges do we face? How may we best respond?
Such questions and our responses result in outcomes.
In the words of Miraslav Wolf "Universalism dies at the edge of the suburb." In other words...you enter into the world of those who have or are currently experience insane injustices, the idea of no judgement or hell for the evil seems incongruous from a loving and benevelont God. You cannot have Mercy without justice.
Lots of things are incongruous but also true. Our intuitions do not always track reality. Things are true or false whether we like it or not. Essentially, you are making an argument from incredulity.
I found Professor Clay Jones' book 'Why does God allow evil?' and Professor Paul Copan's 'Is God a Moral Monster?' helpful with this topic
...The Problem of 𝑬𝒗𝖎𝖑...is it is not "a problem"...
rather it's an Apologetic...proving an objective Good...
Paul Copan’s book is special pleading and false analysis throughout. He claims, on no evidence, that the ancient Hebrew documents would have been understood as analogous to Near Eastern royal edicts, when in fact they are nothing like them. The books of Samuel amd the books of Kings etc were obviously intended to be historical, nothing like the boastful and untruthful royal decrees. Likewise, Copain claims without evidence that the Canaanite cities were ‘military fortresses’ with few civilians. He is a mere apologist.
@@anarchorepublican5954 If you can’t see the problem of a ‘good God’ presiding over such a horrible world, you really need to visit a Children’s Hospital and see how efficacious your excuses are.
Please correct me if I am wrong. I read Paul Copan's book awhile ago (I read a lot, so it doesn't all stick) and I don't remember it that well but I have this memory of him talking about the virgin part (kill everyone except the virgins) in a way that it was totally ok and it wasn't sexual slavery because they married them. It made me sick to my stomach.
@@FinHammer just study the cultural context of anything in the Bible and it will make much more sense than a 21st-century Westerner.
Pray for Jon’s heart to be softened to God and for His faith to be restored and for God to give Him the understanding that He has not had just as we need too ❤❤❤
Ugh please stop with the emoticons. It actually weakens your message.
The eccentric artist piece is fine, but not when eternal damnation is a penalty for not understanding what the message really is. For that, you need clarification that can’t be debated.
Could the progress of the Bible be evidence for the Holy Spirit moving though History
Very good point. I think there is actually a progress involved. Also that might be seen as contradicting that, 'God doesn't change' but IMHO God can and does change. To me the whole story of the Bible is God becoming more human so we could become more God like. Culminating in the incarnation in Jesus Christ. The Bible is the story of God coming closer to us.
Fun fact, that was something spelled out in the book "God - a biography" which looks at the Bible from a literary standpoint and doesn't touch much on the question, 'does God exist' but rather, 'how is he represented to us in the pages of the Bible'.
Very interesting read. Author is Jack Miles.
48:49 Jon is almost spot on with this. I grew up listening to Showbread and I love Josh Porter, but what Josh is promoting lacks the full Biblical gospel. Without a sound Biblical interpretation, it will lead you to these inconsistencies that bother Jon. And the only consistent view if you oppose God's sovereignty in election is universalism. If you allow the whole Bible to inform your reading, the only consistent understanding of God through His text is a (wait for iiiiit)... a Biblical one (AKA a reformed one). If you reject a reformed view of the Bible, and you want to be consistent, you have to be a universalist. The mushy middle stuff eventually falls apart and leads to more people like Jon, whom we should pray for.
I just realized, I should also clarify that it's not just an inconsistancy that bothers Jon. Even if you were to present a full, rich exegesis of scripture, he would still have a hardened heart to this. Because it's not his brain that's the problem, it's his heart. He needs to be born again just like I needed to be. God has to do a supernatural work in your soul to regenerate you so you can respond rightly to His awesome gospel.
1:06:39 This is one of his main problems. He is so focused on a man-centeredness, which is unfortunately all too common even in apologetic circles (it sounds like it might be in Josh's theology too). Starting with man and reasoning to God. That type of reasoning has an inherently low view of God. It's not until God graciously allows us to see a glimpse of how holy He is and how wretched we are.
Why is deconstruction seen as intellectual progress when it typically ends in universalism as a last ditch effort to avoid nihilism?
I would push back on the use of the word "faith" as the basis for the bibliology which describes the Bible as a promulgation of God's word - really it's nothing more than simply ego "fantasy".
People who adhere to what I would consider such a low bibliology as the Chicago statement simply just made such a notion up - out of and for their own egos.
The Bible Projects have a lot to offer.
Hopefully people will find it’s about a loving relationship with Jesus not any religion or philosophy. 😊
Personal experiences don’t prove anything. Subjective at best, these offer value to the individual only.
Wanna hear mine? 😊
Judging by all the other shit you tend to post. What would be best for everyone and you would be if you stepped out and touched some grass and than come back and continue fear god some more and god's eventual rejection of you.
As Billy Joel says its much more fun to laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints. Once you remove God, why not just go indulge in hedonism. Many people just hate the idea of a cosmic authority,
I’m deconstructed from Christianity and willing to discuss cosmic authority if you would like to challenge your perspective. I enjoy these conversations.
Religion is art a meta-art. If the bible is a divine then is even more problematic that there are many christianities… Only faith (a desire to) is the only one su to accept any religion. Atheism is the only logical answer, but for some is just does not feel good, but truth is not about feeling good about it. Great conversation
A man admitted that he has formed a unique and personal "God" based on his personality and biases. Instead of being content with his PERSONAL idea of God he is so arrogant that he needs to go out and WITNESS about his PERSONAL idea of God. The Bible say very clear that one of the worst things someone can do is bear false witness. Every pastor, preacher, prest etc literally believe they have a God like ability to know absolute truth that no mere human could possibly know. Or maybe they just ignore the fact (according to the Bible) they may be bearing false witness which is literally a top ten offense against God. I love the amount of material BY HUMANS that is out to explain God book aka the Bible lol.
Over and over and over again, Steingard uses scripture in the exact same way he hates that Christians use scripture. He never once asks "why did God allow or seemingly promote slavery?" Never once. That is arguing in bad faith.
How does the freewill exist if our thoughts are generated from brain chemical molecules? So what would be the origin of those molecules formation?
HAThEist H'Assuptions again rear their ugly Head ...or on land on their Head...
...well maybe we humans, as moral beings (souls) are much more than just chemical molecules?...
How do you define free will, and how can any thought - free or otherwise - be generated without brain chemicals?
@@onionbelly_ ...wrong question..another HAThEist asssumption...since we are built of chemicals...that's all we are...
the more relevant and interesting question should be rather:...
How can could a thought ever be generated by chemicals alone?...can that be repeated in a laboratory?⚗🔬
...maybe you're confusing the "Software"=💬💭🗯...with the "Hardware"🧠...
@@onionbelly_ ...I would define free will ..as existential atheist John Paul Sartre might define it ...the perpetual human ability to chose( a path) and thus affect outcomes...obey or disobey...submit or resist...believe or disbelieve..choose or reject...love or despise...
what is the real mystery, is why this isn't obvious to everyone...or rather, maybe it is...
@@anarchorepublican5954 I wasn't making those assumptions, and I certainly wasn't being hateful. I'm genuinely interested in the topic of free will and I was simply asking for the OP's clarification, and all you're doing is twisting my words because you have this straw man version of an atheist you have in your mind. Please bother someone else.
A part of my deconstruction of Christianity involved
If God is not a God of confusion, then why is there more than one branch of Christian theology?
There is only one true religion. Didn’t you know that…
With over 40k different denominations it definitely seems like a mess. Imagine if Ananias and Sapphira story would be true nowadays. All of these NAR preachers etc. would just drop dead and we would have no problems with their heresies and the funny thing is, it wouldn't even go against the bible lol. Ofc apologists are going to tell you that the events were meant for the protection of the early church blahblah. In the end you will have nothing to grasp on except your blind faith and "experiences" that can be explained away. I couldn't hold on to that. I wanted to but couldn't.
@@mr.c2485 which one is it?
Do you know?
o my... from all the troubles in religion and in the world, you have an issue that there are different branches of theology? seriously? we have our own volitional and cognitive ideas of how to analyze, dissect, and understand anything. if you and i witness something, we may perceive or even understand it differently. that doesn't mean one of us is wrong as long as we keep the basics together. secondary things are what usually churches and their doctrines disagree about, and they are not always some huge issues. all sound theology agrees on the Trinity, Bible being God's Word, Jesus being the prophecies Messiah and God in the flesh, born of a virgin, etc. there's nothing wrong about different theologies unless they are either cultish or heresies. it makes you read, study, research, and so on instead of just sitting and thinking like everyone else. i don't see problems with that. a liberal theologian would disagree with a conservative theologian, whereas an Arminian theologian would disagree with a Reformed theologian. now, while Arminian and Reformed guys are brothers and deal with the in-house issue, a theologian who would claim unorthodox claims esp. about Jesus' divinity, are not to be considered secondary issues and "in-house issues" but to be avoided as a plague.
simply, God gives us the freedom to apply science, logic, and the all the tools in interpreting such a complex and vast field of studies called theology. it's not "the queen of sciences" for nothing. and like in philosophy or science, you have divisions and people with different ideas. i don't see why is that wrong. you are not abandoning science bc different scientists have different thoughts, right?
@@TheNikolinho
“o my... “
With this opener
I’m wondering if you’re approaching this with judgment and a closed mind…but I’ll proceed with caution
“from all the troubles in religion and in the world, you have an issue that there are different branches of theology? seriously?”
Yes. I thought that was a given as to wondering what
1 Corinthians 14: 33 “For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.” means. Does it mean everyone is right? Wouldn’t that be cause for confusion?
“we have our own volitional and cognitive ideas of how to analyze, dissect, and understand anything. “
Yes we do. So I’m wondering why you’re bothered by my post…unless you don’t consider my thoughts are not a cognitive idea…but then again, it was you who approached me after all. Hmmm, your response is so curious.
“if you and i witness something, we may perceive or even understand it differently. that doesn't mean one of us is wrong as long as we keep the basics together.”
I see your usage of “differently”as equivocation.
It’s the basics that are in question. Are we to differentiate like we do in basic math?
The sum of 5 isn’t anything other than 5.
Are you saying the concept of
“5” has more basic meaning than God?
Are you saying there’s more than 1 NORTH?
Remember it’s the context of
1 Cor:14:33
“secondary things….”
Not until we establish the basics
You know, we want to avoid confusion, right?
Not trying to belittle his experience at all, it just seems like Jon is desperate to believe in anything other than Christianity. I've been there, it makes me sad. I hope God can show up for him.
It's utterly strange that we expect a book to be able to talk to people in vastly different cultures, completely different consciousnesses, world views, etc, and still have anything interesting to say to all of these people. But there it is. God must necessarily speak within a frame er can perceive and which grabs our attention. We should not hold God to an logically impossible standard of talking to everyone through time at the same time. Plus, what the overarching message is, is not one of morality, how to live, or such, that is just the only thing that gets our attention. So the book intentionally sets up paradoxes for us to break out of that mentality, because that mentality IS THE FALL. But we still persist in our morality, even to the point of attributing it to God. No, love, the free giving of what is needed, to those who do not deserve it, is God's way, even if He has to suffer our thanking him for the devil's work. All to give us a chance at having love be its own reward, because that is simply what love does. Love doesn't stay its own, it gathers communities, does what ever is necessary to multiply, and give the gift, which only grows upon the giving. Faith is what is needed for the receiving of the gift, it doesn't mean some sort of intellectual understanding of any doctrine. But doctrines are often helpful, and indeed should be, to maintain a community within which us fallen humans beings can aspire to be like God.
Hi Morten…I deconstructed over several years. I really appreciate Christian’s who simple let faith be faith, committing themselves to discipleship rather than being “right” about science, history or philosophy. Thanks for sharing your viewpoint. I encourage your continued walk. One hopes your testimony will encourage more Christians to be the leaven too.
How can 3 apparently well educated men can discuss a subject that has no chance for verification except by the faith. This debate was an exercise in self indulgent prognostication. Only one person in this group had it anywhere close to reality.
Why would Josh have a human-like skull in his library in the background?
Memento mori.
It's a medieval trope to remind a person of their eventual end.
A lot of old hymns were written by theologians.
Time kills all gods and all religions
Yes…often just transforming them into something unrecognizable but eventually…yea.
READ SOME OF JOHN LENNOX BOOKS!!!!!!!!!!!!GOD BLESS YOU ALL!!!!!!!!!!🙏🏻🕊🙏🏻🙏🙏🙏🏽🙏🙏🏻🕊🕊🕊🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🙏🙏🏽🙏🏽
i wish someone would press Jon on his explanation of this world. The overtly attempts at trying to agree on so much comes off kinda pathetic. I dont see it persuading in any way
Jon’s problem with God not preventing certain types of evil seems to lack a basic understanding of sin AND free will. He seems to think it’s ok to have some freedom but not ultimate freedom. His idea that he would do everything he can to stop his child from murdering another one is nothing different than what God has done. Sure, he doesn’t believe the Bible is divine at all but there is an indication in the Bible that sin is evil regardless of the degree. Remember what God told Cain,
“…and if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. It’s desire is contrary to you, but you must rule over it.”
Initially God created humans to rule over the earth. After the fall, then it was commanded to rule over sin as well. Also, what place would forgiveness have if God stopped all forms of evil and what would be the place of justice? God would have to eliminate all emotions for this to be possible.
God and parents cannot hover over children or humanity to prevent their abuse of freedom such as through harming others. That’s why God institutes law and governments, Romans 13. and our children should understand this: “ For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.”
Does Josh know his phone and computer involve horrendous child labour
Atheist here…my impression is that Josh is very aware of injustice. I got the impression that he is committed to wrestling with the God of Jacob rather than committing himself to a despair that could even arrive at suicide. Life under Construction rather than death in deconstruction. The Gospel narratives suggest that an historical Yesu would have understood that struggling. As you may know, Josh is the American vernacular equivalent of what the disciples called Jesus. Josh has chosen struggle rather than despair and one hopes the struggle continues. Yesu’s struggle ended in crucifixion, the love and inspiration others made of that event persevered. And , It was distorted, co-opted and diversified and adapted and institutionalized in ways Yesu would be utterly baffled to behold.
Life struggles to be.
I often wonder why God created anything at all? And if he had a desire to create, why not just create free agents in heaven? Why put human beings (and other sentient creatures) through all of this bullsh*t?
God doesn't approve the pagan culture in the Bible, but it has been recorded to show how God pursued His people to help us not to follow other gods but Him.
yep, let's not mention the genocide and infanticide part.
Faith is a word people use when they have no facts. 🎉
lol
The fact is that if you ride a plane to another country, it may crash yet you still do it. Another fact is that you trust (have faith) in the pilot, air traffic contoler, mechanic, laws of physics etc.
@@curiousgeorge555you are conflating “trust” with the biblical definition of faith.
Faith is a word atheists abuse because they don't care what it actually means in the Bible. Because they don't care about spreading lies. Like you, Mr C. Face it, you're either lying or ignorant.
@@LosChongo
“The substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things unseen”. You’re conflating “trust” with the biblical use of the word “hope”.
The three are a package deal.
as a Christian that didnt grow up in the Church, it saddens me to hear ex Christians ask questions about slavery, sexual immorality, etc. that in my view are so elementary that it's hard for me to comprehend how you can grow up not asking these obvious questions and getting satisfactory answers. It just comes across so arrogant and self rightous for one to think they can possibly be more moral than God. It's like when people think they could never be nazis if they were Germans in that time period, yet during covid became absolute authoritarian tyrants turning on their neighbor and justifying their evil deeds by pretending to "care for their neighbor" or "science" when in reality they were merely being obviously selfish as they were either ruled by fear or wanted to elevate themselves by virtue signaling. I wish we didnt tip toe around these issues. The Godless have no better answers to anything thats important in our life experience. Not one
I’m godless. I follow some of your points but not others. I enjoy these conversations if you would like to talk about what saddens you. I too am saddened by what I see among many Christians.
@@cipherklosenuf9242 I'm also saddened by many Christians. First, lets understand that most people who claim to be Christian when asked are not actually devout. Theyre not commited to the word and actually dont even know the word.
I'd be interested to know how you conclude the important things in life. Purpose, Justice, Mercy, Moral Authority, etc.
@@Godoverpolitics
Regarding Devout Christians…
Let’s agree that Christian is whatever you consider to be a real, devout Christian…if your view is remarkably unorthodox please clarify your meaning of Christian, but I’m familiar with the normal spectrum so we can roll with whatever you believe to be definitive of Christian.
Great Question. Like everyone…upbringing, personality and life experiences shape us. Christianity had a big influence which I continue to value in many ways. I’m a farm raised American so ideological influence from that background. The Grange (a farmer’s union from the late 19th century) has a great motto:
“In essentials,Unity; In non essentials, Liberty; In all things,charity (as in the King James so let’s say ‘caring’).
As the discussion in this video suggests, much of what influenced my deconstruction had more to do with purpose, justice, mercy and moral authority than being opposed to it.
For example, My ancestors rejected the divine right of kings and this is celebrated as virtue….
I reject the divinity of “the King” for reasons also considerate of right and true…
“We hold these truths to be self evident…”
@@cipherklosenuf9242 God was saddened by the Isrealites request and persistance in having a king in the same way other Godless nations had kings. The reason why He was saddened was bc they failed to recognize that they didnt need kings and kingdoms on earth, they had Him. Same applies today. It's why Jesus is referred to as King of kings.
To clarify what i mean by Christian, lets just keep it simple and say someone that has read the Bible and believes it.
@@Godoverpolitics Hi Josh…OK Bible readers and believers.
And this is where we are at. The end is near folks, and you can ask Him yourself. 🤦♂️
The whole debate seems to be misguided.
The problem comes from putting understanding before obedience. That's human nature though. We seek to understand, so we can control. It's all about power, not trust.
“Men would understand: they do not care to obey,-understand where it is impossible they should understand save by obeying. “ - George MacDonald
I guess neither of these guys align with my understanding of scriptures. They each deny, or disregard, much more evidence.
The Bible warns of this self deception or foolishness appearing as wisdom to deceive, but the most important is from Matthew 18:3 "and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you change and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven." We need not do anything more than believe and trust and out of this we will keep His commands if we love Him. All of these deconstructionists sound wise and speak of wanting to understand more yet anything that takes us from accepting the Word of God as infallible is utter foolishness.
I believe that we live in a world with unlimited access to information which can be good, but in this sense, it creates an arrogance that calls to question something beyond our ability. And because people cannot get an answer they dismiss God although there is nothing new under the sun and Job and the four did the same thing to only be met with questions they could not answer and neither did God answer.
As for slavery, #1- get it out of the context that we know it to be. It was not racist. First, the culture, economy and world was different. Regarding the economy, we did not have corporations nor jobs. Life was agrarian or hunter and there was no mass production. Things needed to get done in order for life to continue and food to be processed. #2. Israel was ordered to not enslave their people. They made slaves of those they did not kill. I think the people were quite fine with being alive rather than being killed. (as for the Numbers 31 reference, there's no indication that Midianites were made into sex slaves. The context is that women who were virgins were to be kept alive and later they could be wives.It's lies like this by Jon that frustrate me because he's taken the words out of context.) #3 God ordered slaves to be freed in the year of Jubilee. #4 The culture we live in now regarding slavery is completely different than slavery during BC era and it's ridiculousness to compare our mindset with that over 3,000 years ago.
Very disappointed by Josh’s take on the Bible and it’s not being divine in authority. He sounds like a progressive christian smh. Both gentlemen kept saying “I feel” which is very subjective in how they come to a conclusion about God.
It is impossible for God to be evil or do evil...It is impossible for a being that created all things (reality in all its forms), owns all things, and sustains all things, to be or do evil...to question the goodness of God is to be oblivious to what the word God really means, subconsciously thinking u are evaluating a human being...should the reality, the full spectrum of what it truly means to be God ever don on you, you will realize that it is literally impossible for God to ever be or do evil
No one has any rights before God, you dont have the right to life, u dont have the right to freedom, you have the right to absolutely nothing, do not put God Almighty in the same category as some human emperor or king or president, this is a being that is far above good and evil, far above material and immaterial things, The true one above all
The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away, blessed be the name of the Lord
None of the reasons you provided explain why it's impossible for a god to be evil. You're just making a circular argument.
@@onionbelly_ in what way is it possible for a being that owns everything, created everything and sustains everything, to be evil?
Everything is God’s property, in what way is God unjust if He does whatever He wishes to do with His property? Doesn’t He have the right to do that, seeing that it all belongs to Him?
Evil is a product of Lack…God lacks nothing, God owns everything, so therefore it is impossible for God to be evil
@@cartoonlove7386 No one defines evil like that, literally no one. You're making the most bizarre theodicy ever.
Adam and Eve lacked certain things, which means God created an evil product based on your reasoning, and how can a perfect being create something faulty with the capacity to do evil, right?
@@onionbelly_ if the author of a novel decides to kill off every character in their story, would he or she be evil?
Josh is pretty full of himself and apparently likes to hear himself talk. Not impressed. I'm tired of hearing the argument that you just need a degree in philosophy and theology to understand... Geez, what bunk. He claimed that is not his opinion but it sure sounded like it. I'm an agnostic, btw.
GCE (Gross Conceptual Error)
;-)
Please do put art or culture above God himself.
Why shouldn't art and culture, which are real, be put above a God that only exists as an idea in people's minds?
@@kellystone7501 Art, and culture comes from the mind. Are you daft for real?
With all due respect..sadly two disappointing clowns deceived by the evil one..1 Corinthians 3:18-20
Ps 14:1 THE [empty-headed] fool has said in his heart, There is no God.
Pretty sick and twisted tacit endorsement from polite, foolish Christian presenters. No rebuke? Can't do that - we might want him back again!
Hey, yeah, cool! No God, eh, oh yeah we all sympathise with you... we understand your thoughtful denial. It's your truth... Love love.
Oh, and we love your personal journey into apostacy...! You so smart Jon. Wow, you worked it out! For you it's your truth.
How many True Continuums are there, Jon? You can't deconstruct that there is only One True Continuum. You don't need any religion or philosophy to understand that.
If you cannot see God then you do not know when he has intervened in your life and when he has not, appearance can be deceiving, as the Christ said, you judge by mere appearance can you not make a right judgement.
Why didn't God intervene in your life to tell you how contradictory your comment is?
I like John but I think Deep Down John was most likely dying to get rid of God like most atheists.
Hi GSP. I’m deconstructed over several years. What do you mean by “ Getting rid of God”?
Based on your next post it seems to be just about indulging in free sex but perhaps you have more in mind that concern you regarding the motivation to deconstruct reliance on supernatural belief systems.
@@cipherklosenuf9242 Ya I do believe it has both the problem with a celestial dictator as Hitchens put it, a Cosmic authority problem as Thomas Nagel put it, and a desire to indulge in many different desires.
@@gsp3428 Hi GSP. Thanks for prompting me to look into those references. Hitchens has an abrasive, disagreeable personality. Celestial Dictator … would that describe Allah …but not Abba?
Is Yesu not referring to HaShem as Abba? Not all Theists believe in a Celestial Dictator, but many do.
Christians in the U.S. who want theocracy are in conflict with Christians who don’t.
I favor democracy…or if you prefer….representative republics.
Res Publica …The people are king. Yes, I have a problem with dictators justified by true believers in God (or true believers creating a “god” of their leader).
I found an article in a Christian blog called Mockingbird about Nagel and Cosmic Authority. Thanks! I look forward to reading more from Nagel. I understand how this applies and I agree, and I can see how this would be frustrating for theists.
One understands that there is much diversity and subtlety within Theism…one finds diversity within atheism as well.
Personally I like to think that the whole is more than the sum of its parts…is that God?
I like to think that a collective voice of “We are what we are” echoes as “I am that I am”…is that God?
These are musings …poetry…we are the stuff of stars…rainbow connection…is that the Celestial Dictator?
“A desire to indulge in many different desires” ..like just grab’em by the p#$$y…for example …gilded palaces…
Porn stars…lying..fraud…all the sin stuff. I respect virtue, modesty, integrity, faithfulness to promises…
Jesus drove the money changers out of the temple …I like that.
Freedom doesn’t mean freedom from responsibility…that’s privilege…as in the privileged elite.
Freedom means being responsible for what you do …choices have consequences …
this requires no supernatural belief system, and is consistent with the idea of ‘deriving its just powers from the consent of the governed.”
I believe that in Arabic the word “Secular” is translated as “godless” …I agree.
So what about genocide of unborn children
Unless you are an American evangelical who was brainwashed by the catholics to believe unbiblical things, there is no real problem with abortion.
Did you know that the catholic church changed their opinion on when human life begins multiple times? Don't stray from the Bible. The Bible never equates the death of a child in the womb with murder.
BTW, the Bible teaches that children who disobey their parents should be stoned to death. You really think that the Bible cares about unborn children if their lives count for so little?
That doesn't mean I'm for abortion BTW. But I'm pro choice. Only theocratic dictatorships think that's a bad thing.
This god is really smart and we are stupid, vulnerable, apes. End of story…😢😮😅😊😂❤. Really? Wtf?
stop trolling
You apparently have a high view of your intelligence. Where do you think it comes from?
I think you must be rather stupid if you have the need/drive to write this comment.
If a man claims that he was once a Christian, he never was, these are the ones who go out from among us because they were not one of us in the first place, which means, these people were never born of the Holy Spirit, you cannot be born of light and then reject it, you would have to remove it to do so.
Sure, but no one is ever born of the holy spirit. The holy spirit isn't real. It's just something you imagine is true in your head.
@@kellystone7501 I absolutely do agree with you. The holy spirit is not real not for you and I think that your should feel joy in knowing that death will be final for you and the rest of us will be with God. So rejoice! Spend this single life you ever have! So do all the filth you are so desperate to do and get validation for it by all other atheists who wants do the same. Even without god, you'd still be judged!
This is what you want to hear right? :)
Slavery is not evil nor is it good it simply is, the moment you are under the law you are in slavery, the moment you have to do something you do not want to do, slavery, the whole world is under slavery it just depends what kind of slavery you are under, it is clearly seen that the slavery in the Old Testament with the Jews is a righteous slavery compared to the slavery of the blacks in America, this is clearly seen. People have to stop hearing the word slavery and putting an evil connotation to it, all those born of light Are Slaves to the Christ.
"righteous slavery", slavery of the "blacks", what are you... 400 years old?
@@onionbelly_no I am a lot older than that however, I am talking about that slavery in itself is not necessarily an evil thing, I am a slave to Christ, I am a Slave to Love, I am a slave to righteousness, the list goes on, slavery of the blacks concerning America and England is a totally different slavering than that of the Romans and that of the Jewish people in the Old Testament, slavery in itself is not a crime, like I said, the moment you're under the law, slavery, your children go to school it is the law and they shall be punished in whatever way if they do not, slavery, yet is this kind of slavery not a righteous slavery, understand the moment you're under the law you are under slavery, you are a slave to many things, do you actually know what you are a slave to, you can be a slave to Pride to arrogance, a slave to lust, the list goes on.
The institution and practice of owning human beings as property and you saying that "I am a slave to my wife" is clearly not the same thing. You're just equivocating. More importantly, you seem to have not read the part in the Bible where it explicitly lays out different rules for treating Gentile slaves. You can own them for perpetuity, beat, sell, and pass them down to your children as family inheritance. If you think this is "totally different" and "righteous" compared to the slavery of antebellum U.S., then you seriously have a primitive mind. Oh, and stop using the term "blacks", it's a derogatory term. Take care.
@@onionbelly_ the term slavery is neither good or evil that is the term, you simply did not understand my comment, ignorance falls.on you not me. Because you still didn't understand it.
@@TempleofChristMinistries Again, words don't always have only one single usage, and no one can understand your argument because it's essentially fallacious. Get well soon, sir.