Yes! The older, good, Ingot Steels at an lower HRC are much tougher and less brittle. But, they don't hold an edge better. Though, they're easier to resharpen. The higher-end, Powder Steels, are usually heat treated to a much higher HRC to give them better edge holding capability. And, in doing so, this process makes the Steel more brittle and more prone to chipping and snapping. That's my understanding and experience. Also, the type of edge you put on a blade can make a difference in toughness, to... :-) Peace, Stiletto :-)
Joe X is the man. He opened my eyes not to be a knife "Fan Boy" for any brand anymore. I own 5 different Busse and swamp rat type of knives. I purchased them because of the reputation they have or had as of now. I have 7 or 8 different Cold Steel type of knifes because of the value they bring. Keep up the good work!
All I care about when it comes to steel is I want something I can sharpen myself on a stone or with my Spyderco sharp maker. All these people who worry about edge retention must not know how to sharpen a knife. Are they looking for a knife they can buy and never need to sharpen? I like 1075, 1085, or 1095 carbon steel and AUS8 or VG-10 just fine. Also, IDGAF about rust. I live in a very humid climate zone and as long as I don’t put my carbon steel knives away wet, they don’t rust. But if they do rust, so what? I just clean them up with sand paper or worst case I use acid to get the rust off but I also have a rusty machete I use for yard work and it works just fine.
Yes. The old school steels work. 1095, 5160, 440C, 420HC, 154CM. Most of my fixed blades are 1095 or mid-carbon 5160. I use food grade mineral oil on them when I put them away.
@@SuperSteelSteveYou’re a sensitive little fellow, aren’t you? Are you a millennial or something? Why would you think it isn’t OK for me to have different opinions and preferences than you have? Because you grew up in daycare and the minimum wage daycare worker who raised you told you everyone has to agree with the status quo? You’re absolutely free to piss your money away on $500 knives all day long, Steve. Just don’t ask me to pay your student loans off when you run out of money.
@@SuperSteelSteveIf you want to be treated like a man, act like a man. Why would I engage with someone who gets offended just because I have a different opinion than you do about what kind of knife I want to own? You start out by saying “How is it OK?”. Why wouldn’t my opinion or my preference in knives be okay? Only a millennial raised in daycare with minor assistance from a single or working mom would fail to understand that people have a right to free speech. Boomers and Gen Xers have a memory of a time when we had free speech and could express opinions without some whiny little bltch like you getting offended. We had fathers who demonstrated masculine behavior. You, obviously, did not.
Your statement at 10:45 is so important! It has been my motto for over 40 years to always question any authority on any topic and to form my own opinion based on more than one source. That doesn't mean I have to disrespect or disparage different opinions, since I might find out I was wrong some day. This world we live in is bigger and more complex than I will ever grasp. Much respect Jacob!
An important point to remember here is that two examples of a steel in a production knife do not equal to an equal comparison of those two steels as any manufacture or maker can ruin any knife in any steel.
In my opinion 5160 spring steel is the very best steel for any knife. For swords for sure, but after using and heat treating, tempering 60 can just take brutal punishment. 01 tool steel is my second pick, the problem with many of these high end steels is they actually putting in too much carbon and running the Vanadium up as well. That provides outstanding edge retention and sharp blade lasts longer however your breaking threshold is lowered. Joe X is just having fun destroying blades and getting views, I don't think he really cares that much that a blade fails, although he sure hammers them like he did Tops.
I appreciate your enthusiasm regarding this subject. I enjoy finding pages like yours with creators that have more than average I.Q. & are willing to take a stand on a subject & not afraid of suffering the backlash. Keep up the interesting & entertaining content.
Wouldn't it be nice if knife manufacturers were just honest? Sometimes you want a looker, a knife too beautiful to really use. A wallhanger. And that's fine. Sometimes you want survival / bushcraft knife. Because you really need to use that thing in the woods. And then it just has to be really good, strong, usable. Because your life may very well depend on it. Then JoeX comes in my frame of mind! Things often go wrong when ignorant marketing boys get involved. I am glad JoeX is back on the tube, and I wanna thank you for this video 👍 Greets from the Netherlands 🇳🇱, TW.
I bought a LT. Wright Bandit 2 years ago in AEB-L steel. That little knive feels and performs and I like wayyyyyy better than steels like s30v and s35vn. Color me surprised when I found out it was made in like the 70's.
I hadn't heard of you or your company before this. I clicked because of the Joe X reference. But i respect your integrity and this message. Now, i subbed and am exploring your brand too
I've numerous knives in many steels including numerous powdered steels. My favourite steels - Buck 420hc and the Sandvik stainless steels (14c28n and 12c27) - tough so easy to sharpen and inexpensive.
I agree!!! The crazy part is that they are affordable because of quantity. Imagine if the rolls were stitched and the expensive steels were expensive and the ultra tough, easy to sharpen, super stainless steels were expensive. That would ssuucckk.
I had a new revelation/respect after I saw that Larrin chart a couple years ago for 420HC. everyone craps on it and it's no wonder that Buck 650 Nighthawk is nearly indestructible (for example).
Joe X тестирует прочность. В лидерах его тестов сталь с содежанием 0.5 -0.7 углерода и до 1% никеля, кремния и марганца. Его тесты совпадают с таблицами и исследовниями Larrin Thomas. Режущую кромку лучше всего удерживают порошковые стали с содержанием ванадия от 8% и выше. Всё уже давно исследовано и известно. О чём спор?
He sure proves that the market is toxic!!! Greed is huge. The most scientific tests available for everybody are Joe's vids. I am amazed about what Joe started, he was so necesary in this domain. 👏👏👏
I mean my adv pitboss in d2 was used for years especially to chop wood at a beach for my dog. Its not really sharp anymore but no big edge dmg or anything. Also the mov steel on my cold steel sr1 doesnt chip or bend or anything. The geometry might play a big role aswell but still
Hard disagree. Take any two videos and look at the sequencing, number of hits and the force applied for each task. Obviously it could be argued that it all counts for the fact that he’s human and non-standardising the tests means that he will make errors due process but saying that he does it equally is completely false.
@@clintwestwood3539 That’s kind of impossible to count how many strikes he gives each one but they all go through a beating regardless and cheaper blades have taken more beatings than expensive ones for sure and that’s facts.
@@cocovasquez1 Absolutely, but it’s not “equal”. The impossible thing would be to make it equal, reason why we standardise tests in the labs and are never done by humans because humans do systematic errors. I was just pointing out this. However yes, you could count technically.
Just did a review on my huge knife channel 😏 I Changed the geometry on my Tops Tanimboca Puukkos horrible V edge, and now it's awesome. ..for me ,and my style . Geometry is king in my world! PREACH IT BROTHER .
@cocovasquez1 Sorry for the long comment incoming.. I've used Tops for years and never had any issues. I love some of their designs. Personal experience is king in my book. The Garberg was super tough, too, on his channel, but I personally think the knife kinda sucks out of the box. Mine came dull with a screwed up edge, so it doesn't matter if it can bend further than most blades or not break. I've owned 2 stainless and 1 carbon , all three had edge issues. The knife has bad geometry for wood working, but it's a very comfortable and tough knife . I even reviewed my first one and bragged about how much I loved it. That was years ago, and now, after using them, I'm not as fond of the knife as I originally was. That's why personal experience is so much more important, in my opinion. I've also owned Condor knives in the past with their 1075hc steel, and they sucked . BUT it's because they were scandi grinds, and the heat treat was too soft for that kind of edge ...Works great for big machetes and even normal grinds like a saber or full flat grind. In that case, it was edge geometry and soft steel. That's a bad mix. Yet I now bought a new Condor Trivitatta Puukko in 1095hc, and the edge holds up great , I recommend that Condor knife it's good steel. I don't choose knives by watching destruction tests cause I don't kill cars or plan on bending a knife on purpose until it breaks. 😉 That said, everyone has opinions, and that's OK with me, I love knives and talking about blades. The whole JoeX thing has started alot of drama ....I liked his channel it's cool watching how knives take abuse. Plus seeing blades like the Hultufors Heavy Duty out perform super expensive knives is kinda funny. .. BUt it don't effect my purchasing decisions at all. I do understand that others see it opposite than I and that's totally cool. Maybe they plan on killing trucks or cutting themselves out of an airplane fuselage. 😁
For survival, bushcraft stuff I am and I will always choose carbon steel 54-56 HRC. You can sharpen it using f**g rocks. They will bend not break. All those fancy steels, like M390, ZDP, Maxamet are good for cutting paper and they will stay sharp forever under such a light use.
whether you liked Joe X or not his content did have value I did not always agree with his final thoughts on a blade but it was pretty cool to see how much abuse a blade could take before it failed.
Edge angle and thickness behind edge is everything, when it comes to cutting. Love to see you do a series on best edge angle for different tasks, then blend all your data for best all around edge that will adequately cut veggies and cut through aluminum or chop down a locust tree at the same time. The Jack of all trades edge. You’re a good communicator and really enjoy your knife vids. I hope more knife guys open their eyes to the fact hype doesn’t affect performance, it’s blade design, carbon content and handle geometry that makes a knife perform. Thanks for telling it like it is. I promised myself no new knives for 24, my resolution for the year. I’m going to order a couple of your knives in January 25 if the world stands.
No problem Jacob. Adding to that idea I’d do the ideal edge testing based on spine thickness. Can’t put a 17 angle on a .25 knife, brittle out instantly. I think you could cover it with .25 and 5/32 being lumped together and then the 3/16 and 1/8 inch stock thickness with same parameters and goal of testing. I’m old and know nothing about videos or computers or I’d be playing around with my own channel. I think most guys into this knife life would be shocked how quickly you can change a knife from zero to hero with a few stones and a guided sharpener. Don’t mean to take your time bro. Just love talking blades man.
@SWORD1-cm4vb so for that metric we actually have two measurements- edge angle and behind the edge thickness. For the most part if you have a knife with a specified bte and you change the angle you are changing effective bte by only marginally. Bte is FAR more important for performance. It's a lot to explain but imagine a 1" thick knife that is 2.5" tall and is zero ground- your edge angle would probably be 20 degrees or something but it would still be WEAK. I should probably do more math before throwing numbers out.
@SWORD1-cm4vb and no worries about time, I love talking knives!!! So I just reached out to a local custom maker about making a 5" bladed cleaver that is 1/4" thick and full flat grind with 2 or 2.5" blade height ground to a zero grind. What we would do would be Test it till it breaks- then grind the edge down slightly and measure bte and do the tests over again, ideally hitting a 0 bte zero grind, a .020" bte with probably a 20 degreeish bps, then a .040"ish bte with 20 dps, then .060", then get silly with .1" bte. We wouldn't likely do any cutting through metal or aluminum and stuff till we got to .020 though.
Not holding my breath to see if Busse ever actually does that destructive testing. I’ll keep bugging them on Bladeforums… 😁 Great video tho - just subbed! 👍
It all depends on your 80crv2 knife and which cpm3v knife you would be comparing it to- it depends on the blade geometry, edge geometry, heat treat, and the task at hand.
Do you know exactly what method Dr Larrin used in his tests? Like did he have ground blanks he impacted the edge against something with measurable force until it broke or how exactly was the test run? From what I’m seeing it seems his values are just one measure of toughness but I’m not sure exactly what the value means. If you go watch or talk to some makers who put blanks in a vice and see how hard it is to snap, you’ll get different values than Larrin’s. Now maybe that’s not the most practical test but it’s interesting to see the results. 3v didn’t really do much better than other decently tough pm steels and the low alloys did by far the best. A8 mod wasn’t in this test but I saw another test of some and it also proved tougher than 3v by a lot in those specific torture till breaking tests. But a8 I hear is weird with the heat treat and you have to do some special stuff to get it’s impact toughness up and it won’t have the same edge stability of a much easier to break laterally steel like aebl. Makes me wonder what method Larrin’s numbers used and how applicable it is to the real world. Aebl broke pretty dang easily in the vice which was a surprise and magnacut was pretty much indistinguishable from cruwear and 3v was pretty dang close to those as well. Aebl broke noticeably easier than these 3 pm steels which was crazy to me
I was thinking maybe his values are more about edge stability but then thought that doesn’t make sense either because 4v has much better edge stability than 3v etc. I guess impact toughness on an edge could be different from other forces/stresses applied to an edge tho. I’m no expert just trying to make sense if it all
What I do know for certain is that magnacuts an awesome belt knife steel and we all have Dr Thomas to thank for that and all the other contributions he’s made to the knife world. And he’s seems like a swell guy to boot
There are a lot of variables to "toughness" and strength that i wish wish were separated, tested, and placed on charts as well but that may be a bit much to ask. As for how he obtains his results it would be best to check his website as he has pages upon pages to explain everything and not only do I not think I could do it justice in a comment I also likely am not qualified to even do so. What is important to note when it comes to toughness on stuff like aebl is that "makers" may not have consistent or ideal ht protocols- which is where he literally having a PhD in metallurgy and doing this for a living is a huge bonus. ANY steel can be ruined, and ANY ruined steel will perform worse than ANY properly made knife steel.
@@Thepreppersbunkeroutdoors the tests I saw are convincing that aebl is not a hard to snap steel in that scenario. Maybe that’s not the most practical test tho. The maker who did the test has conversations with Larrin and is respected by Larrin. He’s known for his heat treat and aebl/14c is one he’s very familiar with and respected for. He still likes aebl and said he’s never experienced a failure with it in real world use. It also has excellent fine edge stability so it’s great to run thin and he’s known for thin and hard convex edges. If you look around you can find multiple good makers who have done similar tests of snapping blanks and low alloy steels are incredibly tough compared to 3v and all other pm steels in this specific test. That doesn’t mean they are better steels because obviously 3v is amazing stuff for super tough use knives as Nathan at CPK has shown. The pm steels also have much better stain resistance and edge holding. If you want a sharpened pry bar survival knife tho I think low alloy still has a place and maybe a8 mod pending some further testing
I personally will still use aebl on my belt knife, as I have one from said maker and it is is an amazing knife…but I will steer clear of aebl for a “survival” type indestructible sharpened prybar type knife
I’ve read both of Larrin’s books and agree that JoeX’s testing methods are mostly just confirming what we already know from Larrin’s data. Gary Creely took a 1/4” of the toughest steel on Larrin’s chart, put a convex grind on it, and made a knife that survived JoeX’s tests beautifully. I think that what JoeX continues to prove is that durability is an inexpensive feature, and that you shouldn’t pay a premium for a reliable beater. That and that cold steel has really strong locks.
"Durability is an inexpensive feature"- I understand what I think you mean and I mostly agree- for the most part durability comes down to edge geometry, but that can't be everything as we see knives with thick edges (like tops) still doing very poorly. But what I want to clarify is that if you want a balance of toughness and edge holding etc then toughness can start being expensive depending on how far you want to push things- Toughness CAN be a cheap attribute but many cheap knives that are tough I have no desire to use because they suck. Ssooo there is so nuance there.
@@Thepreppersbunkeroutdoors I agree that the balance of durability and performance is what you pay a premium for. People pay a premium for knives in Magna-Cut, 3V, Cru-wear, K390 run hard (astronomical edge holding, toughness higher than stainless steels like V10 and S30V) because they can hold a very thin edge for a long time without chipping out. Performance depends on geometry, the materials chosen support that geometry well or poorly.
Sure does and so does traditional coupon testing. Making a video about this atm, AUS8, 420HC ect wayyyy better than people give them credit for. 420HC outperforms popular carbon steels like 1095 in every aspect and is on par with 3v for toughness but people are too caught up on names and numbers. Even 440A which people love to hate outperforms 14C28N & AEB-L in terms of edge retention. Everyone laughed at that survival lilly chick for releasing a survival knife in AUS-8 but it's considerably more suited to the task than most steels you see in that genre.
I was going to disagree about 440a and I went to double check myself and as it turns out- You're right! I have done a few videos on these topics, I wish one would actually get some viewership though. It would be nice for people to actually see and hear the truth
@Thepreppersbunkeroutdoors hopefully, Its kind of sad to see 420HC getting phased out as it's a great option for survival knives. Keep at it, have been following from the start and appreciate the pro-freedom attitude. Respect from Australia or whats left of it 👍
Joe X also sells his knives whit his wife suvival Lilly(aus8 knives)😂. I never see him do a cutting task after hitting some stuff😉 so I understand your point
I didn’t know that sharpening the knife makes it cut better , I actually thought it was the super steel splitting the atoms of material being cut apart?
Yes, it is true. If the owner changes the edge, it greatly affects cutting ability. Cheaper knives come with poor edges for a multitude of reasons. 3 of my sharpest knives are my buck 119 ,Puma hunter and Marttini lumberjack. All of them affordable and out of my 200 plus knives? Probably on the lower to mid expense range of my knives.
Sharpness just comes from alignment at the apex, so if 3 knives that you own are the sharpest it just means that they were sharpened correctly/ easiest to sharpen. With that being said I know Buck for sure are easy to sharpen. 420hc is very under rated.
@@Thepreppersbunkeroutdoors I just use the worksharp machine for all. So if that makes the buck the sharpest then there is something to be said for productivity of maintenance. Some people might just call me lazy but, eh.
@tcup3946 the method of sharpening isn't the definitive variable but instead having exactly the right angle to get the apex in perfect alignment. But yeah, there is something to be said for these cheap steels. They are very corrosion resistant, VERY tough, and they are easy to sharpen! Tbh they should be much more popular.
No, Joe doesn't categorically "prove" that cheap steels are better. But his torture methods do SOMETIMES demonstrate that cheaper can be as good, and even better. What his tests do demonstrate is that cheaper can be good enough. Because almost no user will ever stress a knife to the extent that Joe does. "Good enough" is a characteristic which many of us can relate to. As one who has occasionally spent much more than necessary for a knife I can say that such knives can be so treasured that they are never actually used. So a knife which serves most needs well enough is what I will almost always carry. They don't need to be expensive. All this is not to say that special steels can't be superior for certain tasks; that's obvious. If you're adventuring where conditions might be extreme, then it would be wise to carry the expected best that you can afford. I said "expected" because even if cheaper is actually good enough, when you're at potential risk, you still want what is expected to be the best, available. JoeX's tests amount to extreme torture. Most of us recognize that they don't really apply to normal knife usage. But he combines info that some might find useful with his own unique personality and approach, which presumably those who watch him regularly find to be entertaining.
Should all knives cut as long as possible tho? Knives are born as cutting implements, am I mistaken? This means that edge holding and edge stability should always be the priority over any other “performance” (English is not my first language so I don’t know how to indicate it, basically it being tough or stain-resistant and such). I’m glad that Joe is showing that cheaper knives are not as bad as some portray them to be but at the same time there is a reason why they cost fractions. Does price equal performance? Not always and you talked about it with fit and finish, handle material, sheath material and such. However modern steels do try to put emphasis upon edge stability (finer grain) and edge holding (wear resistance), this is also the findings from Larrin. Larrin also showed how 3v toughness, for example, is much more complex pound for pound with 1095/80crv2/420hc/14c28n toughness (there is an entire article about this and a discussion on bladeforum where he talks even more in depth about the customer perception of toughness shouldn’t be as a single propriety but a multitude (lateral, transversal and such, he talks about it if someone is interested). Anyway, that’s my question: shouldn’t modern knives in 2024 aim to cut as longer as possible and then put something else on the table specifically for what you need it? (Stain-resistance, lateral toughness, impact toughness and whatnot). I also do believe that Joe test should be taken with a grain of salt, he does what he likes but he doesn’t standardise his tests, this can be seen by comparing any two videos, he goes harder on some knives and easier on others which is human considering that he isn’t a machine and the environment isn’t controlled. It’s useful but not taken as it is imo.
A knife should cut as long as possible so long as that cutting performance is not detrimental to other attributes. Knife geometry cuts- so a knife in a tough steel with good geometry will often cut as long or longer than a knife in an edge holding steel with poor geometry- A knife in a tough steel with good edge geometry is unlikely to take damage and is easy to sharpen. On the contrary the steels that hold an edge the longest like rex121 are not able to be sharpened by the average joe and will break with little impact. "Knives are born as cutting impliments" It is easier to resharpen a knife on occasion that to put a broken knife back together- OR to sharpen a knife in a silly steel because they do ALL eventually get dull.
@@Thepreppersbunkeroutdoors I partially agree with that as I was saying previously. My problem gets when companies do absurd geometries with tough steel to justify the knives being unbreakable (which is often what Joe prefers for his usage like opening a hood in a car). I do agree that extremes shouldn't be included, like Rex 121 for example and that's where I do agree. A knife should be able to be touched back up and resharpened entirely if needed be. At the same time, a knife with a steel with very fine grain it's easier to put back a keen edge with just a strop because of the nature of the grain itself rather than bigger carbides (I remember Larrin talking about this too, with examples like AEB-L, 3V, 4V/V4E and such). Being able to stay sharp longer and having such a grain that it's easier to get back to an acute apex while such apex doesn't get abruptly damaged by wears and impacts is what (most) modern steel knives do aim for in the end. That's how Larrin's MagnaCut was born in the end. Having a blade that has better edge holding than LC200N while being comparably stain-proof (not stain-resistant) and with enough edge stability to hold an acute bevel without deformation and damage. I do strongly believe that companies should go back to this: starting with what's the purpose of the knife (and remembering that the primary function is to cut 99% of the time), choosing a geometry for such purpose, a steel that supports both geometry and purpose of the knife (if a more acute edge is needed you need a finer grain steel that can support it better) and then, only then, thinking about other proprieties. Again, I'm no expert, no doctor, just someone that uses his knives and makes them as hobby for myself and friends (as forger, blacksmith, how do you say it in English) and I do mostly use very basic steels (especially k720, AEB-L and such) but this is my personal experience. I do strongly believe that we should take a step back and look at the state of knife industry and what's wrong with it. I don't believe that steels are the problem but rather how they get used and marketed as. As I was saying Joe's trials are useful in their own context but are far from being a "proof" of what's better, especially considering how QC nowadays is extremely poor for most companies because it costs so much to do.
@@clintwestwood3539I kind of disagree with the state of knife industry being poor these days, the quality that you can get and the choices that you have are way better than they were 20 years ago and with companies like spyderco and the huge number of custom makers that sell online it’s never been easier to get a knife in whatever steel you want, ground to thin to cut, heat treated well at a fair price. Not only that, but you have more people testing knives than ever to check the quality and consistency of different brand’s steel and heat treatment. We also have people like Larrin who not only objectively measure steel properties, but who has done a bunch of heat treatments on most steels and made that data publicly accessible to every perspective knife maker. I also think that Larrin is designing both higher wear resistance, and higher toughness (and cheaper cost) variants of of CPM Magna-cut as well which could make whole families of tool steels obsolete for knife making. Diamond abrasives are now cheaper than standard stones so it’s also never been easier to sharpen those exotic steels either, it doesn’t take me long to put a new edge on my folder in K390 that only really needs a new edge once a month or so. I would say that it’s a great time for knives.
@@nandayane Maybe I did not explain myself well, I did not mean that it’s in a poor state, I meant that the choices that so many manufacturers do are doubtful at best. As I was saying, there should be a “tier list” of importance when making a knife, instead nowadays we begin with what steel sells the most, then we put a knife behind it. We don’t even aim at the best HT possible for the work that the knife is defined to do. For example, there is a Serbian custom maker (Zoran) that does CPM 3V at 62/63 hrc, which is unusual. However, he does such because of the knife geometry a what he makes the line for (hunting). He says that from his testing that’s the best range since you can split the pelvis with the knife without blade warping and chipping, getting almost “V4E/Cruwear” edge holding but with better edge stability and toughness because of the microstructure. Again, that’s how he explained it to me when I was talking with him to place an order. He does other steels too but he recommends that for hunting. Following the “tier list” as I was saying. First you chose for what, then the geometry to use and the TBE, only after that he suggests the best steel at the best treatment to support the work and the geometry. Nowadays this doesn’t happen in the knife industry. We try to make “the best knife that does all” and ends up doing poorly everything in the end. That’s what I meant. I hope now is more clear, again, sorry, not my primary language and I’m integrating with Google translate.
@@nandayane Talking about Magnacut, for example, it’s not uncommon to find disagreements on the performance from my findings and interacting with people. I only personally liked Spyderco’s recipe. Everyone else’s seems to focus on “making it the best for everything” and it fails in that regard. Spyderco, for example, still recommends the LC200N as far as toughness goes (especially lateral, transversal and impact) over MC and I do agree from my personal experience with both of them (from the same company for me). Not saying that MC is bad, it’s just to give context
That is why you should have a full convex to the edge if you have a steel that holds a edge like cpm3v or Elmax steel otherwise they break out. Than you have a long lasting edge and tuffness and corrosion resistance
@@Thepreppersbunkeroutdoors ok I seen mostly secondary convex break out. For example the DBK knife did not break out as much at Joe X but the TRC apocalypse did not so good. Only difference is secondary and full convex
@e.dewildt8608 there are MASSIVE differences between the DBK knife and the Apocalypse beyond grind type- not even the intended use or size is remotely similar. Grind type is likely the smallest variable in affecting toughness. A full convex is a zero ground knife and although when done right they can have a good balance of performance and toughness it still comes down to effective edge thickness and heat treat quality before the type of primary and secondary grind. So if you have two knives with the same blade thickness and one is full convex with an effective bte of .015 and the other is full flat with a micro bevel .020 the FFG is going to be FAR tougher- and visa versa.
So I was mistaken with what we were talking about as I was only familiar with the smaller trc made dbk bushcraft knife. But as for apocalypse vs dbk apocalypse it's going to come down to bte
Well, this is interesting. Just yesterday, I was having a conversation with someone in the comments of another video about Busse knives. The video was about insanely overpriced 1095 carbon steel knife by Dead Moose Ops. The other person pointed out how Busse knives, while expensive, aren't using plain old 1095. Don't get me wrong I have a lot of 1095 knives from Tops knives, and I am more than satisfied. However the case with the DMO knife(brute) they want $500 for a knife that shouldn't be much more than $200. $225 at the very most.
There is a TON to unpack here. Steel choice can be a relatively small part of cost however I wouldn't really recommend any custom maker use 1095- But 1095 in the hands of a custom maker can STILL be worth any amount of money people are willing to pay based on a lot of different factors. At a certain point you are paying for a man's art of course. The man's time does not dictate value- the number of people who want a man's time does. But I looked up DMO... Holy crap... just... wow I don't even know what to say.
@@Thepreppersbunkeroutdoors 😂 I figured you'd have an eye bulging moment too, just like I did. Only thing I had to say/ask when I saw that the first time. "What are they smoking?"
@@Thepreppersbunkeroutdoors WOW! 😳I didn't even notice that originally. How is that possible? How can people be that gullible. I could go to my local Walmart camping section an find a cheap chinesium knife with a nicer edge grind.😂
The knives sold under Peterson's brand are made of a "super steel". Dr. Thomas clearly states that edge geometry is more important than the steel used or heat treating. And, that improving the performance of a knife requires only changing its edge geometry. JoeX and others who abuse knives well beyond their likely usage are "testing" knives to a level which is not really applicable to how most people will ever use their knives. Given the above, we can reasonably conclude that sufficiently well made knives made with inexpensive steels ARE better when the value/price ratio is considered. And might also be as good on an absolute basis if they can be made to perform as well with a simple change of their blade edges. It's interesting that Dr. Thomas wears a shirt with "Magna Cut" printed on it; an expensive super steel whose price can be considered excessive if a much cheaper steel can be made to perform as well.
Victorinox has he best steel hands down, bro I bent and hit that stuff with a sledge hammer till it broke, truth! They make their own. BTW if yur looking for a cheao knife to cut through a seatbelt get a Spiderco or Byrd SERATED.
@knife_123 who said it wasn't OK? Generally speaking people don't have to ask permission before modifying their own knives however a user should have a decent understanding of edge geo before doing something like this or be willing to earn a good understanding through trial and error.
Larrin says 154 will outcut s90v with geometry, using his protocols. But if you were to use secondary hardening, that would out cut 154 no matter what. A lot of people don't understand this.
Roman Landes Heat Treatment recommendation: Now this is what I would recommend for heat treat cpm 3v: 1st preheat: 500-600°C, equalize 2nd preheat:800-900°C, equalize Authenize: 1060-1070°C, equalize, soak 30-35min Quench in Oil preheated 60-80°C Cryo: immediately after cleaning, minimum -80°C or lower soak 30min 1st Temper: 150°C equalize, soak 2hrs, quench in water Cryo: immediately after temper 2nd Temper: 180-200°C equalize, soak 2hrs should give you 60+ and a fine durable grain. RGDS Roman This is why I would do it like this. The "receipt" suitable is for a vacuum furnace (Quench with maximum pressure) or a regular cline, but surface protection has to be assured. Salt bath will cut the soak time approximately by 1/3 and thus give better aust-grain. The preheating steps will assure the the austenization steps can be done quick. Quicker speed >> smaller grain Authenization temperature is dedicated to dissolve Chrome and Molybdenum >> fair hardness and some enhanced "Stainresistance" is to be expected. The vanadium will remain in the steel bond as a compound of carbon, hence aust-grain cant really grow The oil quench is suitable for any steel out of the air hardening classes. The thin cross sections get higher hardness after quench (greater volume fraction of martensite) and a less stabilized volume fraction retained austenite. (The volume fraction of RA can be expected (near guess) between 20 and 30% or even higher) Warping of the blade shall not be an issue with these materials. If you have done a lot of hard mechanical work before hardening (milling, grinding,)then do a stress relief so warping gets less likely. The cryo needs to be done as quick as possible below -80°C. RA tends to stabilize rather quickly after the quench (some reports speak of minutes) The longer you wait, the less efficient the transformation to untempered martensite will be. And a minimum of -70°C is necessary to get enough stress into the micro structure, so the transformation (RA>>Martensite) process can restart again. Extensive soak time is not necessary since the process runs at hypersonic speed. But still there will be remains of RA that need to be addressed by the 2nd cryo. The first temper is a low temper so the remaining RA is stabilized at the lowest level possible and at the same time there is enough stress relief in the martensite that has been built and furthermore the transformation from tetragonal to cubic martensite is started. The water quench speeds the whole thing up and avoids precipitation of embrittling phases. Then the rest of the remaining RA will be attacked by the 2nd cryo (usually the RA will drop below 5% volume fraction) so burr formation is less likely. 2nd temper will now temper the untempered martensite build up by the cryo and bring the blade to a fully tempered martensitic structure with a low volume fraction of RA and a fair amount of carbides undissolved. Of course there is the question why not temper it at 540°C? First of all, if you don't have access to cryo then this is your way to go. In my studies of edge stability I did extensive work to compare secondary hardening and low temper with cryo. The results (reference is my graduate thesis 1999 Munich University of Applied Sciences) I found considerable higher edge stability with the samples that had low temper/cryo The material used at the time was ATS-34 all with the same charge and thus the same condition of austinization, but with different temper cycles. RGDS Roman
No he doesn’t. He proves that knives hardened at 55 hrc with thick grinds are durable, regardless of steel. The Creely has been his best performer by far but it wouldn’t make a great “cutting” knife. I like his videos but I always take them with a grain of salt
Define cheaper. Also no one in their right mind would ever use knives the way Joe is using them so what is that supposed to prove? A knife can be good for one job and shit for another, that's the entire point of using different steels and treatments. Get the right knife for the job you wanna do. Joe's videos are pure entertainment and should be taken as just that, not as some kind of benchmark that determines what knives are good and what are bad.
If a person were to get over abusing a piece of steel that has a handle on one end and use it as the cutting tool it was designed for, and then get a quality small hatchet, you can do away with this entire ridiculous topic. This entire issue is due to backyard knife enthusiasts and the fxcking internet giving ( kids ) ideas..
@demo2952 no steel has a 2hrc range of hardness- a knife does. Magnacut can be in the 50's or up to or past 66- that doesn't mean it's smart to do, but you don't understand ht and hardness.
@demo2952 and yet you say a steel "has a hardness of x" If magnacut has an hrc of 62-64 why can I go buy a knife right now with an Hrc of 60? Don't lie about knives here bro, it'll be immediately obvious.
There is No tougher in steels at all, you have soft, hard, stainless, carbon, .... steels, but there no tough. Also what is said here in the movie is totally wrong, because they talk about a knife in General, But I guess they want to talk about the abilties of a specific knife maybe ? And What knife should that be ? Combat knife, Hunting knife ? Outdoor knife, Survival knife ? These knifes mentioned are all very and totally different knifes , they have not much in common, even when you tak about hunting knifes or combat knifes there are very different types they will have very different steels or they are not a use at all for their purpose. And Cheap got mostly nothing to do with knifes , an expensive knife is expensive because it is hand made and not because the steel does cost 10$ more. So of what kind of knife are they talking about ???
Why do you think that you have the broad experience or authority to make statements like this? There is no such thing as a tougher steel- what steel have you used? Take some time for some interspection and ask yourself why you would wish to expound on subjects that you don't know anything about.
@@Thepreppersbunkeroutdoors Steel can have abilties because of physics and chemics, but here is no ability like tough, you got hard or soft, but not tough, there is no tough steel or metal. You might have errors in the metal like structure wise, by impurities or weak points like in recycled metal , but this is not called weak or tough, it is just damaged metal. Tough is not reality is not nature, tough is a human made desciption of something and has a point of view, in some cases a metal is very soft you can bend without breaking you might call tough, the other one does not call it tough at all, because it bends and by far too flexible, for another point of view very hard metal like carbon might be tough, because it stays in this build structure but carbon hard steel does break very easy, so the next one says this aint tough at all. The expression tough does not exist in nature, it is a made up human expression to describe something but does not exist in reality / nature. There are a lot of words or expressions does not not exist in reality or nature and made up by mankind like good , better, evil, bad, worse and so on too, it is judging something from the own perspective but that does not reflect reality and not the ability of something. Something can be bad in 1000 cases, but in one superior over everything else, also something evil does not exist in nature a lion does eat others alive to feed himself does not make a lion evil But for mankind these expressions are there to give their own perspective and point of view of something has nothing to do with nature anymore, it is fictiv, personal, emotional and surreal and kind of art , not reflecting reality, it is more reflecting someones own prespective, or giving very precise information, what you do nbot got in nature, in nature everythings happen and not just one case, like a turtle can be tough , but also not at all and a turtle can be the weakest animal on earth depends on your perspective which does not exist in nature.
@@Thepreppersbunkeroutdoors When you show me something what ever it is , in realtity that is "tough" then heat it up by 120.000 C Degree and lets see how tough it is, there is not tough or weak in reality these are made up expressions of mankind do not exist in nature and reality , it is a perspective and just point of view, you might usw as discribtion and expression for something to make clear your point of view.
@@Thepreppersbunkeroutdoors Did you get and learned something ? Or you still wanna tell us that there is a metal or steel can be tough ? You can say a steel is a good choice for this and that purpose and not so good for others , but even this is then only your perspective , there are people might use other technics and disagree , like there are 10000 of different kitchen knieves , there is not a better or best one , it depends on what you wanna do, what your technics and skillz are, how you wanna use it, how you store it, how you wanna sharpen it, and 1000 of other factors does make a knife right for you are bad for you, when it comes to multibles usages and abilities you wanna have it even get more complicated because you have to make your knife inperfect in many cases so it can perform a much larger range of tasks. Like you want to have a knife to break down a tuna fish and the sametime a knife you wanna do detail art wood work you will have problem.
Good advertising, a lot of money invested in marketing and all this for people who don't need such knives. The design of knives has been relying on "tactical/combat/survival" for years and years, which is, I don't know, infantile. A knife is either a tool or a weapon and you use the one you need. First, you have no reason to put the knife under such stress, so most knives work well. I'm OK with a Mora knife and a swiss army knife and having a machete, saw or ax with it. What I suspected about modern supernatural knives, Joe X proved - they break. I don't understand metallurgy and the story about super steel means nothing to me. Big story, big price - we see it with other products we use in life, the knife is no exception. Especially as you can see in Joe X's videos that these superknives break easily and the breaks are strange, literally some break endlessly, piece by piece. They have hardness, strength and elasticity are poor, like a diamond. Professional knives have a totally different approach to design and material. Who has ever seen a professional tactical butcher knife with a black finish and universal function and advertised by the best butcher in the world? The average person is not a butcher, so there is no need for such a thing.
@@Thepreppersbunkeroutdoors i can't actually stand her and she calls out makers for using cheap steels only for the fact it isn't a steel she prefers. Tarnishing their reputation and credibility it's a shit thing to do.
Especially considering that the steels she likes are only the steels she likes because they are the ones her friends like 🤷♂️ If more "influencers" ACTUALLY used their knives they would be better off.
@@Thepreppersbunkeroutdoors I agree with you she's closed minded. as a knife maker making a knife thick and hard is still a brittle thick blade? She seems to think you can run a knife hard like 62 HRC and thick and it will be strong enough, she also said esse dosent know what they are doing making thick soft 1095 knives lol 🤣
@aaron6841 considering that she doesn't do anything that would break a knife and she has never broken a knife what can we expect? Lol She just wants attention 🤷♂️
Joe X was amazing!!! He'll be missed.. a true maverick in this industry.
Did he die or something?
@@P226nut Joe ascended to Heaven
Joe X named you as a trusted UA-camr. Freaking awesome.
He's a good dude.
He's a Legend on YT
Joe X is the man. He opened my eyes not to be a knife fan boy for any brand anymore.
Marlboro
@@UrielsJunkDrawer me too
Cliff Stamp. He was a great tester. Rest in Peace Cliff...
Yes! The older, good, Ingot Steels at an lower HRC are much tougher and less brittle. But, they don't hold an edge better. Though, they're easier to resharpen. The higher-end, Powder Steels, are usually heat treated to a much higher HRC to give them better edge holding capability. And, in doing so, this process makes the Steel more brittle and more prone to chipping and snapping. That's my understanding and experience. Also, the type of edge you put on a blade can make a difference in toughness, to... :-) Peace, Stiletto :-)
I'm beating the living 💩 out of a $20 cold steel Bushman for 10 years now. Chipped a $449 first time use. I agree 100% with Joe.
It seems there could be a lot of variables here that you might not be considering.
JoeX rocks, that's all folks...
Joe X is the man.
He opened my eyes not to be a knife "Fan Boy" for any brand anymore.
I own 5 different Busse and swamp rat type of knives. I purchased them because of the reputation they have or had as of now.
I have 7 or 8 different Cold Steel type of knifes because of the value they bring.
Keep up the good work!
All I care about when it comes to steel is I want something I can sharpen myself on a stone or with my Spyderco sharp maker. All these people who worry about edge retention must not know how to sharpen a knife. Are they looking for a knife they can buy and never need to sharpen? I like 1075, 1085, or 1095 carbon steel and AUS8 or VG-10 just fine. Also, IDGAF about rust. I live in a very humid climate zone and as long as I don’t put my carbon steel knives away wet, they don’t rust. But if they do rust, so what? I just clean them up with sand paper or worst case I use acid to get the rust off but I also have a rusty machete I use for yard work and it works just fine.
Yes. The old school steels work. 1095, 5160, 440C, 420HC, 154CM. Most of my fixed blades are 1095 or mid-carbon 5160. I use food grade mineral oil on them when I put them away.
@@SuperSteelSteveYou’re a sensitive little fellow, aren’t you? Are you a millennial or something? Why would you think it isn’t OK for me to have different opinions and preferences than you have? Because you grew up in daycare and the minimum wage daycare worker who raised you told you everyone has to agree with the status quo? You’re absolutely free to piss your money away on $500 knives all day long, Steve. Just don’t ask me to pay your student loans off when you run out of money.
As a knife sharpener, you are not going to want a knife that constantly chips in your normal use. In my opinion, sharpening out a chip is infuriating.
@@SuperSteelSteveYou’re a millennial, right?
@@SuperSteelSteveIf you want to be treated like a man, act like a man. Why would I engage with someone who gets offended just because I have a different opinion than you do about what kind of knife I want to own? You start out by saying “How is it OK?”. Why wouldn’t my opinion or my preference in knives be okay? Only a millennial raised in daycare with minor assistance from a single or working mom would fail to understand that people have a right to free speech. Boomers and Gen Xers have a memory of a time when we had free speech and could express opinions without some whiny little bltch like you getting offended. We had fathers who demonstrated masculine behavior. You, obviously, did not.
If you’ve watched this channel for anytime…. You know, when Jake is using hand gestures…. HE MEANS BUSINESS!
🤣
Your statement at 10:45 is so important!
It has been my motto for over 40 years to always question any authority on any topic and to form my own opinion based on more than one source.
That doesn't mean I have to disrespect or disparage different opinions, since I might find out I was wrong some day.
This world we live in is bigger and more complex than I will ever grasp.
Much respect Jacob!
💪🏻💪🏻💪🏻
I have a coast fixed cheap 9crmov that outlasted a kabar becker. Facts
An important point to remember here is that two examples of a steel in a production knife do not equal to an equal comparison of those two steels as any manufacture or maker can ruin any knife in any steel.
In my opinion 5160 spring steel is the very best steel for any knife. For swords for sure, but after using and heat treating, tempering 60 can just take brutal punishment. 01 tool steel is my second pick, the problem with many of these high end steels is they actually putting in too much carbon and running the Vanadium up as well. That provides outstanding edge retention and sharp blade lasts longer however your breaking threshold is lowered. Joe X is just having fun destroying blades and getting views, I don't think he really cares that much that a blade fails, although he sure hammers them like he did Tops.
Definitely a lot of TALK in the knife community with very little walk for some. Thanks for the hard work!
TRUTH. PERIOD. Well stated my friend.
I appreciate your enthusiasm regarding this subject. I enjoy finding pages like yours with creators that have more than average I.Q. & are willing to take a stand on a subject & not afraid of suffering the backlash. Keep up the interesting & entertaining content.
💪🏻💪🏻💪🏻👏🏻
Wouldn't it be nice if knife manufacturers were just honest? Sometimes you want a looker, a knife too beautiful to really use. A wallhanger. And that's fine. Sometimes you want survival / bushcraft knife. Because you really need to use that thing in the woods. And then it just has to be really good, strong, usable. Because your life may very well depend on it. Then JoeX comes in my frame of mind! Things often go wrong when ignorant marketing boys get involved. I am glad JoeX is back on the tube, and I wanna thank you for this video 👍
Greets from the Netherlands 🇳🇱, TW.
I couldn't agree more!
Joe X is an Austrian Treasure!
🤣
I have a benchmade with a thick edge that wont cut paper ,,but its sturdy ...and a couple cheap knives you can shave with ...
What bench do you have ?
JoeX is invulnerable, immortal, and gives user a faith in their blades that allows them to push their own limits.
Getting spicy on this one Jacob lol I love your rants ✌🏼
💪🏻
I saw some rabbits scatter in the background
There're a lot of people in this world that don't want to be confused by facts.
I bought a LT. Wright Bandit 2 years ago in AEB-L steel. That little knive feels and performs and I like wayyyyyy better than steels like s30v and s35vn. Color me surprised when I found out it was made in like the 70's.
AEB-L is probably one of the best steels in the whole industry, it's super under rated!
I hadn't heard of you or your company before this. I clicked because of the Joe X reference. But i respect your integrity and this message. Now, i subbed and am exploring your brand too
💪🏻🤘🏻
@@Thepreppersbunkeroutdoors 🤘😎
I've numerous knives in many steels including numerous powdered steels. My favourite steels - Buck 420hc and the Sandvik stainless steels (14c28n and 12c27) - tough so easy to sharpen and inexpensive.
I agree!!!
The crazy part is that they are affordable because of quantity.
Imagine if the rolls were stitched and the expensive steels were expensive and the ultra tough, easy to sharpen, super stainless steels were expensive.
That would ssuucckk.
I had a new revelation/respect after I saw that Larrin chart a couple years ago for 420HC. everyone craps on it and it's no wonder that Buck 650 Nighthawk is nearly indestructible (for example).
Yeah it can sure be good stuff!
Joe X тестирует прочность. В лидерах его тестов сталь с содежанием 0.5 -0.7 углерода и до 1% никеля, кремния и марганца. Его тесты совпадают с таблицами и исследовниями Larrin Thomas.
Режущую кромку лучше всего удерживают порошковые стали с содержанием ванадия от 8% и выше. Всё уже давно исследовано и известно. О чём спор?
He sure proves that the market is toxic!!! Greed is huge. The most scientific tests available for everybody are Joe's vids.
I am amazed about what Joe started, he was so necesary in this domain.
👏👏👏
@@joex 🤗
I mean my adv pitboss in d2 was used for years especially to chop wood at a beach for my dog. Its not really sharp anymore but no big edge dmg or anything. Also the mov steel on my cold steel sr1 doesnt chip or bend or anything. The geometry might play a big role aswell but still
Oh yeah edge geo certainly goes a long way. Further in fact than the steel itself.
Joe X beats all the knives equally and if one passes the test than that proves tons!!!
Hard disagree. Take any two videos and look at the sequencing, number of hits and the force applied for each task.
Obviously it could be argued that it all counts for the fact that he’s human and non-standardising the tests means that he will make errors due process but saying that he does it equally is completely false.
@@clintwestwood3539 That’s kind of impossible to count how many strikes he gives each one but they all go through a beating regardless and cheaper blades have taken more beatings than expensive ones for sure and that’s facts.
@@cocovasquez1 Absolutely, but it’s not “equal”. The impossible thing would be to make it equal, reason why we standardise tests in the labs and are never done by humans because humans do systematic errors.
I was just pointing out this.
However yes, you could count technically.
Just did a review on my huge knife channel 😏
I Changed the geometry on my Tops Tanimboca Puukkos horrible V edge, and now it's awesome. ..for me ,and my style .
Geometry is king in my world!
PREACH IT BROTHER .
NICE!!!
Careful with that Tops, Joe X never liked Tops and destroyed them easily.
@cocovasquez1
Sorry for the long comment incoming..
I've used Tops for years and never had any issues. I love some of their designs. Personal experience is king in my book.
The Garberg was super tough, too, on his channel, but I personally think the knife kinda sucks out of the box. Mine came dull with a screwed up edge, so it doesn't matter if it can bend further than most blades or not break. I've owned 2 stainless and 1 carbon , all three had edge issues. The knife has bad geometry for wood working, but it's a very comfortable and tough knife . I even reviewed my first one and bragged about how much I loved it. That was years ago, and now, after using them, I'm not as fond of the knife as I originally was. That's why personal experience is so much more important, in my opinion.
I've also owned Condor knives in the past with their 1075hc steel, and they sucked . BUT it's because they were scandi grinds, and the heat treat was too soft for that kind of edge ...Works great for big machetes and even normal grinds like a saber or full flat grind. In that case, it was edge geometry and soft steel. That's a bad mix. Yet I now bought a new Condor Trivitatta Puukko in 1095hc, and the edge holds up great , I recommend that Condor knife it's good steel.
I don't choose knives by watching destruction tests cause I don't kill cars or plan on bending a knife on purpose until it breaks. 😉
That said, everyone has opinions, and that's OK with me, I love knives and talking about blades.
The whole JoeX thing has started alot of drama ....I liked his channel it's cool watching how knives take abuse. Plus seeing blades like the Hultufors Heavy Duty out perform super expensive knives is kinda funny. .. BUt it don't effect my purchasing decisions at all. I do understand that others see it opposite than I and that's totally cool.
Maybe they plan on killing trucks or cutting themselves out of an airplane fuselage. 😁
For survival, bushcraft stuff I am and I will always choose carbon steel 54-56 HRC. You can sharpen it using f**g rocks. They will bend not break. All those fancy steels, like M390, ZDP, Maxamet are good for cutting paper and they will stay sharp forever under such a light use.
Come back JOE X,, we miss you already,, 😭😭
whether you liked Joe X or not his content did have value I did not always agree with his final thoughts on a blade but it was pretty cool to see how much abuse a blade could take before it failed.
Edge angle and thickness behind edge is everything, when it comes to cutting. Love to see you do a series on best edge angle for different tasks, then blend all your data for best all around edge that will adequately cut veggies and cut through aluminum or chop down a locust tree at the same time. The Jack of all trades edge. You’re a good communicator and really enjoy your knife vids. I hope more knife guys open their eyes to the fact hype doesn’t affect performance, it’s blade design, carbon content and handle geometry that makes a knife perform. Thanks for telling it like it is. I promised myself no new knives for 24, my resolution for the year. I’m going to order a couple of your knives in January 25 if the world stands.
It would be really cool to do a test like that... I might be able to talk to a local buddy and do that...
Thanks man!!!
No problem Jacob. Adding to that idea I’d do the ideal edge testing based on spine thickness. Can’t put a 17 angle on a .25 knife, brittle out instantly. I think you could cover it with .25 and 5/32 being lumped together and then the 3/16 and 1/8 inch stock thickness with same parameters and goal of testing. I’m old and know nothing about videos or computers or I’d be playing around with my own channel. I think most guys into this knife life would be shocked how quickly you can change a knife from zero to hero with a few stones and a guided sharpener. Don’t mean to take your time bro. Just love talking blades man.
@SWORD1-cm4vb so for that metric we actually have two measurements- edge angle and behind the edge thickness.
For the most part if you have a knife with a specified bte and you change the angle you are changing effective bte by only marginally.
Bte is FAR more important for performance. It's a lot to explain but imagine a 1" thick knife that is 2.5" tall and is zero ground- your edge angle would probably be 20 degrees or something but it would still be WEAK. I should probably do more math before throwing numbers out.
@SWORD1-cm4vb and no worries about time, I love talking knives!!!
So I just reached out to a local custom maker about making a 5" bladed cleaver that is 1/4" thick and full flat grind with 2 or 2.5" blade height ground to a zero grind. What we would do would be Test it till it breaks- then grind the edge down slightly and measure bte and do the tests over again, ideally hitting a 0 bte zero grind, a .020" bte with probably a 20 degreeish bps, then a .040"ish bte with 20 dps, then .060", then get silly with .1" bte.
We wouldn't likely do any cutting through metal or aluminum and stuff till we got to .020 though.
👍🏻
So when is there AEB-L steel? I think I make the Aeb-l knife myself and test it also.
Aeb-l is such a great steel.
Aebl is 💪🏻💪🏻💪🏻
No he taught me if you make a blade specifically for what he does. A sharpened pry bar with good heat treatment. It will hold up good .
I saved his video of top 10 knives but dont remember what they were. I was going to buy a couple. Anybody know what they were?
Not holding my breath to see if Busse ever actually does that destructive testing. I’ll keep bugging them on Bladeforums… 😁
Great video tho - just subbed! 👍
@@scdub glad to have ya!
I'm pretty confident the 80crv2 blade i have could put cpm 3v to shame
It all depends on your 80crv2 knife and which cpm3v knife you would be comparing it to- it depends on the blade geometry, edge geometry, heat treat, and the task at hand.
Anyone know the knife JOE X is holding in the thumbnail pic? Beavercraft Dune?
I think it was the bsh4
BSH1 Dune
Son of a gun! I was right
Do you know exactly what method Dr Larrin used in his tests? Like did he have ground blanks he impacted the edge against something with measurable force until it broke or how exactly was the test run?
From what I’m seeing it seems his values are just one measure of toughness but I’m not sure exactly what the value means. If you go watch or talk to some makers who put blanks in a vice and see how hard it is to snap, you’ll get different values than Larrin’s. Now maybe that’s not the most practical test but it’s interesting to see the results. 3v didn’t really do much better than other decently tough pm steels and the low alloys did by far the best. A8 mod wasn’t in this test but I saw another test of some and it also proved tougher than 3v by a lot in those specific torture till breaking tests. But a8 I hear is weird with the heat treat and you have to do some special stuff to get it’s impact toughness up and it won’t have the same edge stability of a much easier to break laterally steel like aebl.
Makes me wonder what method Larrin’s numbers used and how applicable it is to the real world. Aebl broke pretty dang easily in the vice which was a surprise and magnacut was pretty much indistinguishable from cruwear and 3v was pretty dang close to those as well. Aebl broke noticeably easier than these 3 pm steels which was crazy to me
I was thinking maybe his values are more about edge stability but then thought that doesn’t make sense either because 4v has much better edge stability than 3v etc. I guess impact toughness on an edge could be different from other forces/stresses applied to an edge tho. I’m no expert just trying to make sense if it all
What I do know for certain is that magnacuts an awesome belt knife steel and we all have Dr Thomas to thank for that and all the other contributions he’s made to the knife world. And he’s seems like a swell guy to boot
There are a lot of variables to "toughness" and strength that i wish wish were separated, tested, and placed on charts as well but that may be a bit much to ask.
As for how he obtains his results it would be best to check his website as he has pages upon pages to explain everything and not only do I not think I could do it justice in a comment I also likely am not qualified to even do so.
What is important to note when it comes to toughness on stuff like aebl is that "makers" may not have consistent or ideal ht protocols- which is where he literally having a PhD in metallurgy and doing this for a living is a huge bonus.
ANY steel can be ruined, and ANY ruined steel will perform worse than ANY properly made knife steel.
@@Thepreppersbunkeroutdoors the tests I saw are convincing that aebl is not a hard to snap steel in that scenario. Maybe that’s not the most practical test tho.
The maker who did the test has conversations with Larrin and is respected by Larrin. He’s known for his heat treat and aebl/14c is one he’s very familiar with and respected for. He still likes aebl and said he’s never experienced a failure with it in real world use. It also has excellent fine edge stability so it’s great to run thin and he’s known for thin and hard convex edges.
If you look around you can find multiple good makers who have done similar tests of snapping blanks and low alloy steels are incredibly tough compared to 3v and all other pm steels in this specific test. That doesn’t mean they are better steels because obviously 3v is amazing stuff for super tough use knives as Nathan at CPK has shown. The pm steels also have much better stain resistance and edge holding. If you want a sharpened pry bar survival knife tho I think low alloy still has a place and maybe a8 mod pending some further testing
I personally will still use aebl on my belt knife, as I have one from said maker and it is is an amazing knife…but I will steer clear of aebl for a “survival” type indestructible sharpened prybar type knife
The best knives I ever had are my CRKT M16 knives. I got the tanto and the spear point. These are pocket knives.
It's all really simple: toughness and hardness are inversely proportional.
Nope, not at all thar simple
I’ve read both of Larrin’s books and agree that JoeX’s testing methods are mostly just confirming what we already know from Larrin’s data. Gary Creely took a 1/4” of the toughest steel on Larrin’s chart, put a convex grind on it, and made a knife that survived JoeX’s tests beautifully.
I think that what JoeX continues to prove is that durability is an inexpensive feature, and that you shouldn’t pay a premium for a reliable beater. That and that cold steel has really strong locks.
It proves also that pusse cant takę critics
"Durability is an inexpensive feature"-
I understand what I think you mean and I mostly agree- for the most part durability comes down to edge geometry, but that can't be everything as we see knives with thick edges (like tops) still doing very poorly.
But what I want to clarify is that if you want a balance of toughness and edge holding etc then toughness can start being expensive depending on how far you want to push things-
Toughness CAN be a cheap attribute but many cheap knives that are tough I have no desire to use because they suck.
Ssooo there is so nuance there.
@@Thepreppersbunkeroutdoors I agree that the balance of durability and performance is what you pay a premium for. People pay a premium for knives in Magna-Cut, 3V, Cru-wear, K390 run hard (astronomical edge holding, toughness higher than stainless steels like V10 and S30V) because they can hold a very thin edge for a long time without chipping out. Performance depends on geometry, the materials chosen support that geometry well or poorly.
@@nandayane 💪🏻💪🏻💪🏻
Big knife need toughness, not EDGE retention!!!
Sure does and so does traditional coupon testing. Making a video about this atm, AUS8, 420HC ect wayyyy better than people give them credit for. 420HC outperforms popular carbon steels like 1095 in every aspect and is on par with 3v for toughness but people are too caught up on names and numbers. Even 440A which people love to hate outperforms 14C28N & AEB-L in terms of edge retention. Everyone laughed at that survival lilly chick for releasing a survival knife in AUS-8 but it's considerably more suited to the task than most steels you see in that genre.
I was going to disagree about 440a and I went to double check myself and as it turns out-
You're right!
I have done a few videos on these topics, I wish one would actually get some viewership though. It would be nice for people to actually see and hear the truth
@Thepreppersbunkeroutdoors hopefully, Its kind of sad to see 420HC getting phased out as it's a great option for survival knives.
Keep at it, have been following from the start and appreciate the pro-freedom attitude. Respect from Australia or whats left of it 👍
@razorbackss thanks man!!!
I need to get my butt over to your continent!
Happy with a joker nomad 🎉
Truth.
Joe X also sells his knives whit his wife suvival Lilly(aus8 knives)😂.
I never see him do a cutting task after hitting some stuff😉 so I understand your point
🤣🤣🤣🤣
No knife will be cutting after what Joe X does haha
Didn't know Joe X and Survival Lilly were married, good for them.
@@bullphrogva1804lol they're not
speak on brother....keep it scientistic!
I didn’t know that sharpening the knife makes it cut better , I actually thought it was the super steel splitting the atoms of material being cut apart?
🤣🤣🤣
Yes, it is true. If the owner changes the edge, it greatly affects cutting ability. Cheaper knives come with poor edges for a multitude of reasons. 3 of my sharpest knives are my buck 119 ,Puma hunter and Marttini lumberjack. All of them affordable and out of my 200 plus knives? Probably on the lower to mid expense range of my knives.
Sharpness just comes from alignment at the apex, so if 3 knives that you own are the sharpest it just means that they were sharpened correctly/ easiest to sharpen.
With that being said I know Buck for sure are easy to sharpen. 420hc is very under rated.
@@Thepreppersbunkeroutdoors I just use the worksharp machine for all. So if that makes the buck the sharpest then there is something to be said for productivity of maintenance. Some people might just call me lazy but, eh.
@tcup3946 the method of sharpening isn't the definitive variable but instead having exactly the right angle to get the apex in perfect alignment.
But yeah, there is something to be said for these cheap steels. They are very corrosion resistant, VERY tough, and they are easy to sharpen!
Tbh they should be much more popular.
Joe x actually tested a crowbar, but it is casted steel, and did not hold long.
🤣🤣🤣
Awesome 💯
Got yourself a New subscriber. Whats the name of the woman you Talked about? Who talked about magnacut?
Lots of people are yapping about magnacut, it's wild.
She is irrelevant, not worth mentioning.
No, Joe doesn't categorically "prove" that cheap steels are better. But his torture methods do SOMETIMES demonstrate that cheaper can be as good, and even better.
What his tests do demonstrate is that cheaper can be good enough. Because almost no user will ever stress a knife to the extent that Joe does. "Good enough" is a characteristic which many of us can relate to. As one who has occasionally spent much more than necessary for a knife I can say that such knives can be so treasured that they are never actually used.
So a knife which serves most needs well enough is what I will almost always carry. They don't need to be expensive.
All this is not to say that special steels can't be superior for certain tasks; that's obvious. If you're adventuring where conditions might be extreme, then it would be wise to carry the expected best that you can afford. I said "expected" because even if cheaper is actually good enough, when you're at potential risk, you still want what is expected to be the best, available.
JoeX's tests amount to extreme torture. Most of us recognize that they don't really apply to normal knife usage. But he combines info that some might find useful with his own unique personality and approach, which presumably those who watch him regularly find to be entertaining.
Great video!
Should all knives cut as long as possible tho? Knives are born as cutting implements, am I mistaken? This means that edge holding and edge stability should always be the priority over any other “performance” (English is not my first language so I don’t know how to indicate it, basically it being tough or stain-resistant and such).
I’m glad that Joe is showing that cheaper knives are not as bad as some portray them to be but at the same time there is a reason why they cost fractions.
Does price equal performance? Not always and you talked about it with fit and finish, handle material, sheath material and such. However modern steels do try to put emphasis upon edge stability (finer grain) and edge holding (wear resistance), this is also the findings from Larrin.
Larrin also showed how 3v toughness, for example, is much more complex pound for pound with 1095/80crv2/420hc/14c28n toughness (there is an entire article about this and a discussion on bladeforum where he talks even more in depth about the customer perception of toughness shouldn’t be as a single propriety but a multitude (lateral, transversal and such, he talks about it if someone is interested).
Anyway, that’s my question: shouldn’t modern knives in 2024 aim to cut as longer as possible and then put something else on the table specifically for what you need it? (Stain-resistance, lateral toughness, impact toughness and whatnot).
I also do believe that Joe test should be taken with a grain of salt, he does what he likes but he doesn’t standardise his tests, this can be seen by comparing any two videos, he goes harder on some knives and easier on others which is human considering that he isn’t a machine and the environment isn’t controlled. It’s useful but not taken as it is imo.
A knife should cut as long as possible so long as that cutting performance is not detrimental to other attributes.
Knife geometry cuts- so a knife in a tough steel with good geometry will often cut as long or longer than a knife in an edge holding steel with poor geometry-
A knife in a tough steel with good edge geometry is unlikely to take damage and is easy to sharpen.
On the contrary the steels that hold an edge the longest like rex121 are not able to be sharpened by the average joe and will break with little impact.
"Knives are born as cutting impliments"
It is easier to resharpen a knife on occasion that to put a broken knife back together-
OR to sharpen a knife in a silly steel because they do ALL eventually get dull.
@@Thepreppersbunkeroutdoors I partially agree with that as I was saying previously. My problem gets when companies do absurd geometries with tough steel to justify the knives being unbreakable (which is often what Joe prefers for his usage like opening a hood in a car).
I do agree that extremes shouldn't be included, like Rex 121 for example and that's where I do agree. A knife should be able to be touched back up and resharpened entirely if needed be. At the same time, a knife with a steel with very fine grain it's easier to put back a keen edge with just a strop because of the nature of the grain itself rather than bigger carbides (I remember Larrin talking about this too, with examples like AEB-L, 3V, 4V/V4E and such).
Being able to stay sharp longer and having such a grain that it's easier to get back to an acute apex while such apex doesn't get abruptly damaged by wears and impacts is what (most) modern steel knives do aim for in the end. That's how Larrin's MagnaCut was born in the end.
Having a blade that has better edge holding than LC200N while being comparably stain-proof (not stain-resistant) and with enough edge stability to hold an acute bevel without deformation and damage.
I do strongly believe that companies should go back to this: starting with what's the purpose of the knife (and remembering that the primary function is to cut 99% of the time), choosing a geometry for such purpose, a steel that supports both geometry and purpose of the knife (if a more acute edge is needed you need a finer grain steel that can support it better) and then, only then, thinking about other proprieties. Again, I'm no expert, no doctor, just someone that uses his knives and makes them as hobby for myself and friends (as forger, blacksmith, how do you say it in English) and I do mostly use very basic steels (especially k720, AEB-L and such) but this is my personal experience.
I do strongly believe that we should take a step back and look at the state of knife industry and what's wrong with it. I don't believe that steels are the problem but rather how they get used and marketed as.
As I was saying Joe's trials are useful in their own context but are far from being a "proof" of what's better, especially considering how QC nowadays is extremely poor for most companies because it costs so much to do.
@@clintwestwood3539I kind of disagree with the state of knife industry being poor these days, the quality that you can get and the choices that you have are way better than they were 20 years ago and with companies like spyderco and the huge number of custom makers that sell online it’s never been easier to get a knife in whatever steel you want, ground to thin to cut, heat treated well at a fair price.
Not only that, but you have more people testing knives than ever to check the quality and consistency of different brand’s steel and heat treatment. We also have people like Larrin who not only objectively measure steel properties, but who has done a bunch of heat treatments on most steels and made that data publicly accessible to every perspective knife maker. I also think that Larrin is designing both higher wear resistance, and higher toughness (and cheaper cost) variants of of CPM Magna-cut as well which could make whole families of tool steels obsolete for knife making.
Diamond abrasives are now cheaper than standard stones so it’s also never been easier to sharpen those exotic steels either, it doesn’t take me long to put a new edge on my folder in K390 that only really needs a new edge once a month or so.
I would say that it’s a great time for knives.
@@nandayane Maybe I did not explain myself well, I did not mean that it’s in a poor state, I meant that the choices that so many manufacturers do are doubtful at best.
As I was saying, there should be a “tier list” of importance when making a knife, instead nowadays we begin with what steel sells the most, then we put a knife behind it.
We don’t even aim at the best HT possible for the work that the knife is defined to do. For example, there is a Serbian custom maker (Zoran) that does CPM 3V at 62/63 hrc, which is unusual. However, he does such because of the knife geometry a what he makes the line for (hunting). He says that from his testing that’s the best range since you can split the pelvis with the knife without blade warping and chipping, getting almost “V4E/Cruwear” edge holding but with better edge stability and toughness because of the microstructure. Again, that’s how he explained it to me when I was talking with him to place an order. He does other steels too but he recommends that for hunting.
Following the “tier list” as I was saying. First you chose for what, then the geometry to use and the TBE, only after that he suggests the best steel at the best treatment to support the work and the geometry.
Nowadays this doesn’t happen in the knife industry. We try to make “the best knife that does all” and ends up doing poorly everything in the end. That’s what I meant. I hope now is more clear, again, sorry, not my primary language and I’m integrating with Google translate.
@@nandayane Talking about Magnacut, for example, it’s not uncommon to find disagreements on the performance from my findings and interacting with people. I only personally liked Spyderco’s recipe. Everyone else’s seems to focus on “making it the best for everything” and it fails in that regard. Spyderco, for example, still recommends the LC200N as far as toughness goes (especially lateral, transversal and impact) over MC and I do agree from my personal experience with both of them (from the same company for me).
Not saying that MC is bad, it’s just to give context
Great video man ❤
Awesome video Jacob 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
That is why you should have a full convex to the edge if you have a steel that holds a edge like cpm3v or Elmax steel otherwise they break out.
Than you have a long lasting edge and tuffness and corrosion resistance
Most of the 3v that I have seen broken out at the edge has been full convex fwiw
@@Thepreppersbunkeroutdoors ok I seen mostly secondary convex break out.
For example the DBK knife did not break out as much at Joe X but the TRC apocalypse did not so good.
Only difference is secondary and full convex
@e.dewildt8608 there are MASSIVE differences between the DBK knife and the Apocalypse beyond grind type- not even the intended use or size is remotely similar. Grind type is likely the smallest variable in affecting toughness.
A full convex is a zero ground knife and although when done right they can have a good balance of performance and toughness it still comes down to effective edge thickness and heat treat quality before the type of primary and secondary grind.
So if you have two knives with the same blade thickness and one is full convex with an effective bte of .015 and the other is full flat with a micro bevel .020 the FFG is going to be FAR tougher- and visa versa.
@@Thepreppersbunkeroutdoors Ok so the DBK apocalyse(not dbk design) has no advantage in your opinion?
Because that was a full convex version!
So I was mistaken with what we were talking about as I was only familiar with the smaller trc made dbk bushcraft knife.
But as for apocalypse vs dbk apocalypse it's going to come down to bte
Well, this is interesting. Just yesterday, I was having a conversation with someone in the comments of another video about Busse knives. The video was about insanely overpriced 1095 carbon steel knife by Dead Moose Ops. The other person pointed out how Busse knives, while expensive, aren't using plain old 1095. Don't get me wrong I have a lot of 1095 knives from Tops knives, and I am more than satisfied. However the case with the DMO knife(brute) they want $500 for a knife that shouldn't be much more than $200. $225 at the very most.
There is a TON to unpack here.
Steel choice can be a relatively small part of cost however I wouldn't really recommend any custom maker use 1095-
But 1095 in the hands of a custom maker can STILL be worth any amount of money people are willing to pay based on a lot of different factors.
At a certain point you are paying for a man's art of course. The man's time does not dictate value- the number of people who want a man's time does.
But I looked up DMO... Holy crap... just... wow
I don't even know what to say.
@@Thepreppersbunkeroutdoors 😂 I figured you'd have an eye bulging moment too, just like I did. Only thing I had to say/ask when I saw that the first time. "What are they smoking?"
@@srbontrager those edges!? What on earth!?
Why!?
Y tho!
@@Thepreppersbunkeroutdoors WOW! 😳I didn't even notice that originally. How is that possible? How can people be that gullible. I could go to my local Walmart camping section an find a cheap chinesium knife with a nicer edge grind.😂
@@srbontrager it's uh... brutal
The knives sold under Peterson's brand are made of a "super steel". Dr. Thomas clearly states that edge geometry is more important than the steel used or heat treating. And, that improving the performance of a knife requires only changing its edge geometry. JoeX and others who abuse knives well beyond their likely usage are "testing" knives to a level which is not really applicable to how most people will ever use their knives. Given the above, we can reasonably conclude that sufficiently well made knives made with inexpensive steels ARE better when the value/price ratio is considered. And might also be as good on an absolute basis if they can be made to perform as well with a simple change of their blade edges.
It's interesting that Dr. Thomas wears a shirt with "Magna Cut" printed on it; an expensive super steel whose price can be considered excessive if a much cheaper steel can be made to perform as well.
1095 steel for ever❤
Why?
@@Thepreppersbunkeroutdoors KA-BAR Mk2 probably
@@xentrix89 that isn't even 1095 🤷♂️
@@Thepreppersbunkeroutdoors But there made out of 1095 Cro-Van I have one (KA-BAR Single Mark) thats what the specs say??
@@xentrix89 1095cv is not 1095. It's technically, even according to their website, 170-6c sherdan.
Joe X proves that knife shills have no Marlboro !!!
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awesome video my friend!!!! cool!!!!!
💪🏻💪🏻💪🏻
Excellent 👍🏻
Victorinox has he best steel hands down, bro I bent and hit that stuff with a sledge hammer till it broke, truth! They make their own.
BTW if yur looking for a cheao knife to cut through a seatbelt get a Spiderco or Byrd SERATED.
Victorinox does not make their own steel, they use 12c27.
It's a great steel.
Most of the knives I enjoy use steels the supposed "knife community" rejects. Yeah for low prices!
💪🏻
So what your telling us is that it's okay to buy cheap knife's and change the edge geometry Roger that 😎
@knife_123 who said it wasn't OK? Generally speaking people don't have to ask permission before modifying their own knives however a user should have a decent understanding of edge geo before doing something like this or be willing to earn a good understanding through trial and error.
Knifesteelnerds is not representative of mass production knives. They don't use the same protocols, hardness, or furnaces etc.
Larrin says 154 will outcut s90v with geometry, using his protocols. But if you were to use secondary hardening, that would out cut 154 no matter what. A lot of people don't understand this.
Check out check out Carothers performance knives on 3v vs magnacut and the tests he did.
Carothers uses a modification of the low temperature temper protocol for delta 3v.
Roman Landes Heat Treatment recommendation:
Now this is what I would recommend for heat treat cpm 3v:
1st preheat: 500-600°C, equalize
2nd preheat:800-900°C, equalize
Authenize: 1060-1070°C, equalize, soak 30-35min
Quench in Oil preheated 60-80°C
Cryo: immediately after cleaning, minimum -80°C or lower soak 30min
1st Temper: 150°C equalize, soak 2hrs, quench in water
Cryo: immediately after temper
2nd Temper: 180-200°C equalize, soak 2hrs
should give you 60+ and a fine durable grain. RGDS Roman
This is why I would do it like this.
The "receipt" suitable is for a vacuum furnace (Quench with maximum pressure) or a regular cline, but surface protection has to be assured.
Salt bath will cut the soak time approximately by 1/3 and thus give better aust-grain.
The preheating steps will assure the the austenization steps can be done quick. Quicker speed >> smaller grain
Authenization temperature is dedicated to dissolve Chrome and Molybdenum >> fair hardness and some enhanced "Stainresistance" is to be expected.
The vanadium will remain in the steel bond as a compound of carbon, hence aust-grain cant really grow
The oil quench is suitable for any steel out of the air hardening classes. The thin cross sections get higher hardness after quench (greater volume fraction of martensite) and a less stabilized volume fraction retained austenite. (The volume fraction of RA can be expected (near guess) between 20 and 30% or even higher)
Warping of the blade shall not be an issue with these materials.
If you have done a lot of hard mechanical work before hardening (milling, grinding,)then do a stress relief so warping gets less likely.
The cryo needs to be done as quick as possible below -80°C.
RA tends to stabilize rather quickly after the quench (some reports speak of minutes)
The longer you wait, the less efficient the transformation to untempered martensite will be.
And a minimum of -70°C is necessary to get enough stress into the micro structure, so the transformation (RA>>Martensite) process can restart again.
Extensive soak time is not necessary since the process runs at hypersonic speed.
But still there will be remains of RA that need to be addressed by the 2nd cryo.
The first temper is a low temper so the remaining RA is stabilized at the lowest level possible and at the same time there is enough stress relief in the martensite that has been built and furthermore the transformation from tetragonal to cubic martensite is started.
The water quench speeds the whole thing up and avoids precipitation of embrittling phases.
Then the rest of the remaining RA will be attacked by the 2nd cryo (usually the RA will drop below 5% volume fraction) so burr formation is less likely.
2nd temper will now temper the untempered martensite build up by the cryo and bring the blade to a fully tempered martensitic structure with a low volume fraction of RA and a fair amount of carbides undissolved.
Of course there is the question why not temper it at 540°C?
First of all, if you don't have access to cryo then this is your way to go.
In my studies of edge stability I did extensive work to compare secondary hardening and low temper with cryo.
The results (reference is my graduate thesis 1999 Munich University of Applied Sciences) I found considerable higher edge stability with the samples that had low temper/cryo The material used at the time was ATS-34 all with the same charge and thus the same condition of austinization, but with different temper cycles.
RGDS Roman
Roman L. Came up with the low heat temper protocol for 3v as noted above.. Larrin basically copied his book.
No he doesn’t. He proves that knives hardened at 55 hrc with thick grinds are durable, regardless of steel. The Creely has been his best performer by far but it wouldn’t make a great “cutting” knife. I like his videos but I always take them with a grain of salt
Edge geometry cuts
And edge geometry dictates toughness.
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👍
Who’s the chick you’re talking about with the Magnacut stuff?
If I wanted to name her I would have named her lol
The time may come.
@@Thepreppersbunkeroutdoors I thought I just missed you saying it either earlier in the video or in one of your previous videos lol
@@christopherlarson7579 gotcha. I don't think she deserves the attention fwiw. 🤷♂️
J and J collaboration coming soon?
Haha I would be down but the distance would make that difficult!
Define cheaper.
Also no one in their right mind would ever use knives the way Joe is using them so what is that supposed to prove? A knife can be good for one job and shit for another, that's the entire point of using different steels and treatments. Get the right knife for the job you wanna do.
Joe's videos are pure entertainment and should be taken as just that, not as some kind of benchmark that determines what knives are good and what are bad.
If a person were to get over abusing a piece of steel that has a handle on one end and use it as the cutting tool it was designed for,
and then get a quality small hatchet,
you can do away with this entire ridiculous topic.
This entire issue is due to
backyard knife enthusiasts
and the fxcking internet giving
( kids ) ideas..
If people would get off the internet and actually out doing things we would be even better still.
Come back brother. Weak men are destroying this nation. That includes your channel which is you. Hope to see you soon!
Why are you yelling at the camera?
For the people on the other side 👌🏻
Joe X can’t let the woke losers win. Fight!!
It's pronounced bussie
Tougher but not harder
Hardness is not a metric unique to any of the blades he tested. All range within 56 to 60 but the vast majority at all price ranges are 58-59
@@Thepreppersbunkeroutdoors magnacut has a hrc of 62-64. M390 is 60-62. S35vs is 59-61
@demo2952 no steel has a 2hrc range of hardness- a knife does.
Magnacut can be in the 50's or up to or past 66- that doesn't mean it's smart to do, but you don't understand ht and hardness.
@@Thepreppersbunkeroutdoors cool story bro, I work at a knife factory as a heat treat specialist
@demo2952 and yet you say a steel "has a hardness of x"
If magnacut has an hrc of 62-64 why can I go buy a knife right now with an Hrc of 60?
Don't lie about knives here bro, it'll be immediately obvious.
There is No tougher in steels at all,
you have soft, hard, stainless, carbon, .... steels, but there no tough.
Also what is said here in the movie is totally wrong, because they talk about a knife in General,
But I guess they want to talk about the abilties of a specific knife maybe ?
And What knife should that be ? Combat knife, Hunting knife ? Outdoor knife, Survival knife ?
These knifes mentioned are all very and totally different knifes , they have not much in common,
even when you tak about hunting knifes or combat knifes
there are very different types they will have very different steels or they are not a use at all for their purpose.
And Cheap got mostly nothing to do with knifes , an expensive knife is expensive because it is hand made and not because the steel does cost 10$ more.
So of what kind of knife are they talking about ???
Why do you think that you have the broad experience or authority to make statements like this?
There is no such thing as a tougher steel- what steel have you used?
Take some time for some interspection and ask yourself why you would wish to expound on subjects that you don't know anything about.
@@Thepreppersbunkeroutdoors
Steel can have abilties because of physics and chemics, but here is no ability like tough, you got hard or soft, but not tough, there is no tough steel or metal.
You might have errors in the metal like structure wise, by impurities or weak points like in recycled metal , but this is not called weak or tough, it is just damaged metal.
Tough is not reality is not nature, tough is a human made desciption of something and has a point of view, in some cases a metal is very soft you can bend without breaking you might call tough, the other one does not call it tough at all, because it bends and by far too flexible, for another point of view very hard metal like carbon might be tough, because it stays in this build structure but carbon hard steel does break very easy, so the next one says this aint tough at all.
The expression tough does not exist in nature, it is a made up human expression to describe something but does not exist in reality / nature.
There are a lot of words or expressions does not not exist in reality or nature and made up by mankind like good , better, evil, bad, worse and so on too, it is judging something from the own perspective but that does not reflect reality and not the ability of something. Something can be bad in 1000 cases, but in one superior over everything else, also something evil does not exist in nature a lion does eat others alive to feed himself does not make a lion evil
But for mankind these expressions are there to give their own perspective and point of view of something has nothing to do with nature anymore, it is fictiv, personal, emotional and surreal and kind of art , not reflecting reality, it is more reflecting someones own prespective, or giving very precise information, what you do nbot got in nature, in nature everythings happen and not just one case, like a turtle can be tough , but also not at all and a turtle can be the weakest animal on earth depends on your perspective which does not exist in nature.
@@Thepreppersbunkeroutdoors When you show me something what ever it is , in realtity that is "tough" then heat it up by 120.000 C Degree and lets see how tough it is, there is not tough or weak in reality these are made up expressions of mankind do not exist in nature and reality , it is a perspective and just point of view, you might usw as discribtion and expression for something to make clear your point of view.
@@Thepreppersbunkeroutdoors
Did you get and learned something ?
Or you still wanna tell us that there is a metal or steel can be tough ?
You can say a steel is a good choice for this and that purpose and not so good for others , but even this is then only your perspective , there are people might use other technics and disagree , like there are 10000 of different kitchen knieves , there is not a better or best one , it depends on what you wanna do, what your technics and skillz are, how you wanna use it, how you store it, how you wanna sharpen it, and 1000 of other factors does make a knife right for you are bad for you, when it comes to multibles usages and abilities you wanna have it even get more complicated because you have to make your knife inperfect in many cases so it can perform a much larger range of tasks.
Like you want to have a knife to break down a tuna fish and the sametime a knife you wanna do detail art wood work you will have problem.
Good advertising, a lot of money invested in marketing and all this for people who don't need such knives. The design of knives has been relying on "tactical/combat/survival" for years and years, which is, I don't know, infantile. A knife is either a tool or a weapon and you use the one you need. First, you have no reason to put the knife under such stress, so most knives work well. I'm OK with a Mora knife and a swiss army knife and having a machete, saw or ax with it. What I suspected about modern supernatural knives, Joe X proved - they break. I don't understand metallurgy and the story about super steel means nothing to me. Big story, big price - we see it with other products we use in life, the knife is no exception. Especially as you can see in Joe X's videos that these superknives break easily and the breaks are strange, literally some break endlessly, piece by piece. They have hardness, strength and elasticity are poor, like a diamond. Professional knives have a totally different approach to design and material. Who has ever seen a professional tactical butcher knife with a black finish and universal function and advertised by the best butcher in the world? The average person is not a butcher, so there is no need for such a thing.
Erica edc talks absolute crap
That's because she doesn't use her knives or understand edge geo 🤷♂️
@@Thepreppersbunkeroutdoors i can't actually stand her and she calls out makers for using cheap steels only for the fact it isn't a steel she prefers. Tarnishing their reputation and credibility it's a shit thing to do.
Especially considering that the steels she likes are only the steels she likes because they are the ones her friends like 🤷♂️
If more "influencers" ACTUALLY used their knives they would be better off.
@@Thepreppersbunkeroutdoors I agree with you she's closed minded. as a knife maker making a knife thick and hard is still a brittle thick blade? She seems to think you can run a knife hard like 62 HRC and thick and it will be strong enough, she also said esse dosent know what they are doing making thick soft 1095 knives lol 🤣
@aaron6841 considering that she doesn't do anything that would break a knife and she has never broken a knife what can we expect?
Lol
She just wants attention 🤷♂️
Keeping it real