I had this exact issue on a keystone Montana. Eventually, you will see it on the outside as well. The issue is the wall connection to the actual frame. The Aluminum wall studs and base will likely have welds broken and / or the bolts have come loose attaching to the frame. in my case, it was both. Keystone agreed to pay for the work to be done at a local shop that was capable of doing the work. They pulled the outside fiberglass skin off the section from the bedroom slide to the front cap and front cap. They beefed up the wall, rewelded the a couple of aluminum wall studs and reinforced wall base aluminum and filled it with wood to allow better lag bolt attachment to actual frame. They replaced the outside Fiberglass, matched the gel coat color and new decals. It took 4 months in the local RV repair / body shop (during the winter months). While mine was in the shop, I noticed many others in there for the exact same reason (many different brands). Everyone thinks only Grand Design has this issue. According to repair shop, almost all makes with Lippert frames have similar issues, the only difference is how the manufacturer helps and supports the customer through it. Just be sure to have a full front frame inspection when they do the work to ensure you don't also have weld or frame cracks as well.
@@gcslade great information. This is why I want the factory to handle it. We can’t afford to be out of our rig for that long as full-timers. I really appreciate it
You do realize what you have is frame failure, right? There's a broken STRUCTURAL weld for the upper deck of Lippert frame that over-stressed the welds for the aluminum framing around the portal of your slide in the house box. Your upper deck is twisting extensively, and the more you travel with it in this condition, the more the frame and house box welds are being overtaxed. Yes, I am a structural engineer, and yes, I am an RVer. So, I am acutely aware of the hassle of getting into a factory service center (my 5er has been back to Indiana 3x) and the way dealing with manufacturer customer service personnel can be like talking to the wall... However, you really have a coach that's now unsafe to tow on the nation's roads because 1) the pinbox is mounted to the structural deck framing and 2) have no understanding of the magnitude of the frame failure. Unfortunately, you find yourself a member of the Lippert frame failure club, and you need to get back on Alliance and talk about this unsafe state your coach is in, you're full-timers, and you know this is a real, broad industry problem where the veil has been pulled off. Customer service should have helped coordinate your rig being measured for frame flex via the Lippert standard, which is will clearly fail, which will then clear the way to get a mobile Lippert technician out to you to inspect and attempt to stabilize the failure so transport can be reasonably safe. What you have cannot be completely fixed in the field. Not only does the slide box have to come out and the cap off, the forward baggage doors and skin will need to be removed, and your laminated wall peeled open to repair the broken aluminum welds and reinforce the portal framing. The only way they'll be able to complete this in a week for you at the factory is if they put multiple techs on it, which is a rare thing. Most of the time, this is a 2 to 4 week repair, depending on what they find when opened and if they need Lippert to come inspect and direct repairs or perform the frame repairs. Patience and kindness are indeed important, but you have a more serious problem with your coach than one that can wait "'til next year" after you tow to Florida and back... ALL manufacturers are acutely aware of the frame failure issues and very sensitive to the matter, and you have frame failure. Use the leverage afforded by others. Good luck to you both!
@@robv4053 thanks for all the info. We are now working with the VP of Services at Alliance to try and get squared away. Wish us luck on getting in. We DO NOT want to take it to a service repair shop, as we know the wait times can be ridiculous.
@waltfriedrich7631 No, there really isn't. Unlike most folks, I have seen the failures myself, repaired a number of them as I am also a welder, SCWI, and a CWEng, and have witnessed Lippert, two established RV frame and body repair shops, as well as repairs in two manufacturers' facilities. Damage they have at opposing corners is due to torsion, and the house framing could no longer resist it. Broken weld(s) will be found streetside. All can be repaired, but the longer it goes without repair and is towed, the more of a problem it will be. This problem has been around a long time. It's only just become more prevalent due to the COVID-19 RV boom with 10s of thousands of more units out there that were also assembled with too much speed and too little quality control. If you want to blame these impacted owners for causing the failure, blame the roads, blame use of an RV as an RV, I certainly cannot stop that. However, all indicators are pointing to a failed structural frame weld somewhere roadside.
@@robv4053 you sir get me wrong. I am not blaming anyone!!! Unlike you I want it opened up and see what actually caused the issue. I have been around RVs since the 80s...was an RV rep in the 90s... know gas, arc welding and MIG welding and have engineering backgrounds. You have a foregone mind when it should be open. Let's see what they find before throwing accusations.
@waltfriedrich7631 I'm not throwing accusations but learned, experienced opinion as someone who practices heavily in forensic failure analyses and have been around this issue many times. I'm glad you have a technical background because you then understand there is urgency in this situation, but your RV knowledge from the 90s is not really relevant to current construction. Stick and tin was still dominate, many manufacturers made their frames, lamination was in its infancy, fundamental design premise was the frame carried the box, and so-on. I, too, want it opened for the sake of the owners to be repaired. However, it's definitely going to reveal broken weld(s). Alliance, unlike many of their competitors also adheres the house walls to the steel deck tubes with a Sika adhesive in addition to the lateral lag screws through the tube into the stuffed aluminum wall tubing and vertical screws up through the steel sill plates into the stuffed aluminum wall tubing. The house box stays integral with the frame because of this adhesive bond. This is one of the reasons why it is so obviously a frame failure, and the house box is now exhibiting fatigue failures in the aluminum framing. Lippert and the manufacturers rely on an intact "shell" - the frame and the house acting as one to perform. When one fails, the other can handle some readjustment of the loads temporarily - all structures are designed for slow (yielding) failure and not catastrophic (instant) failure. However, this is a temporary state, and once failure has begun, it will accelerate if loads conditions are not mitigated and repairs enacted, especially with dynamic loading conditions. The overall point of my posting was for the owners to understand there's a higher level urgency with the cause of the damage that's finally manifested into an easily observed condition. Based on their response, they became aware of this sooner, given their elevated conversation with Alliance.
Latest Update: we spoke again with our Rep at Alliance, and he stated he didn’t receive our last 2 emails, no problem. However, we did learn that you can actually schedule an exact date to get work at the factory, it will just be much later. In our case we will have to wait until April next year due to things on our personal schedule. Additionally, he is also going to make a request to get us into the factory in November, if available, we just have to wait for September 1st to submit the request. As far as Frame Failure, or Frame Flex, he assured us the Alliance has not had ANY of these issues with there units, and that we were not experiencing this either. Time will tell. Some may be wondering if we would recommend buying an Alliance RV, the answer is still yes, at this time. They really do try to do what is right by the customer.
We are going to do an update video this week to discuss the latest on this situation with the factory. We have some good information to talk about. If you are not subscribed, now would be a good time to do so.
You guys, things break, but that is not normal breaking. BTW, our Tandara has not broken yet after 3 years of full time. Why are you protecting Alliance? They sold you a shoddy product that has frame failure. Period!
@@yvonnearce8267 This is exactly why we made this video. These comments are very helpful to us. We are certainly giving some real thought to the frame failure issue, and we are going to start pressing the issue with the factory to get in ASAP.
You have to remain flexible but maybe an RV should not be so flexible? Once in a while I wonder if much less luxurious and more robust may be desirable.
Hello Allies! Since you are full timers, when was the last time you had your rig weighed? The "crack" you are referring to is not actually a CRACK, it is a tear in the seem tape covering an expansion joint, you will see on the opposite side (outside) a black metal strip that is screwed through these two panels to allow for independent movement by design. Regarding the closet, is there any visual issues on the outside? These interior panels are just finish panels and are not structural and are susceptible to movement from vibration and road shock. To say "Extensive Repairs" is misleading and is not right to put this onto any manufacturer, this is more cosmetic. As far as the leveling system, have you done a "Zero Point Calibration" per the Lippert manual? These will and do get out of calibration over time and need to be re-zeroed. Alliance RV is hands down is the best in the industry when it comes to customer service. We don't want to sound like a Shill, but after 4-5th wheel RVs by other manufacturers, no other RV manufacturer comes close to what Alliance has to offer all around, especially from a customer service standpoint. There is no "frame failure" as some would state, some are now questing weather to purchase an Alliance. What is not told often enough is how happy buyers are with their Alliances, us being one of them. The Alliance community is one of a kind, it is a FamAlly, any Allie would stop and help any other Ally in a split second if needed. This is what Alliance is about, it is a lifestyle, a family of likeminded people I hope your viewers walk away from this video knowing things happen, it is how we overcome challenges that matter.
@@tyersontheroad2607 Thanks for watching and commenting. When we are saying extensive repairs, it is because we were told by our rep at Alliance that the bedroom slide will need to be removed and the front end cap will need to be removed also in order to fully diagnose and make repairs necessary. To us, that is pretty extensive. We do weigh our unit throughout the year to make sure we are not overloading. As for the leveling system, we have recalibrated it several times. It does tend to get out of whack when traveling.
Here’s the latest update on our situation: ua-cam.com/video/oCCUj3UJj-E/v-deo.htmlsi=9cG0LkJ3uthC3iga
Best of luck guys praying for your success in getting your repairs completed and safe travels
@@albertharden1628 Much appreciated. Thanks!
I had this exact issue on a keystone Montana. Eventually, you will see it on the outside as well. The issue is the wall connection to the actual frame. The Aluminum wall studs and base will likely have welds broken and / or the bolts have come loose attaching to the frame. in my case, it was both. Keystone agreed to pay for the work to be done at a local shop that was capable of doing the work. They pulled the outside fiberglass skin off the section from the bedroom slide to the front cap and front cap. They beefed up the wall, rewelded the a couple of aluminum wall studs and reinforced wall base aluminum and filled it with wood to allow better lag bolt attachment to actual frame. They replaced the outside Fiberglass, matched the gel coat color and new decals. It took 4 months in the local RV repair / body shop (during the winter months). While mine was in the shop, I noticed many others in there for the exact same reason (many different brands). Everyone thinks only Grand Design has this issue. According to repair shop, almost all makes with Lippert frames have similar issues, the only difference is how the manufacturer helps and supports the customer through it. Just be sure to have a full front frame inspection when they do the work to ensure you don't also have weld or frame cracks as well.
@@gcslade great information. This is why I want the factory to handle it. We can’t afford to be out of our rig for that long as full-timers. I really appreciate it
You do realize what you have is frame failure, right? There's a broken STRUCTURAL weld for the upper deck of Lippert frame that over-stressed the welds for the aluminum framing around the portal of your slide in the house box. Your upper deck is twisting extensively, and the more you travel with it in this condition, the more the frame and house box welds are being overtaxed. Yes, I am a structural engineer, and yes, I am an RVer. So, I am acutely aware of the hassle of getting into a factory service center (my 5er has been back to Indiana 3x) and the way dealing with manufacturer customer service personnel can be like talking to the wall... However, you really have a coach that's now unsafe to tow on the nation's roads because 1) the pinbox is mounted to the structural deck framing and 2) have no understanding of the magnitude of the frame failure. Unfortunately, you find yourself a member of the Lippert frame failure club, and you need to get back on Alliance and talk about this unsafe state your coach is in, you're full-timers, and you know this is a real, broad industry problem where the veil has been pulled off. Customer service should have helped coordinate your rig being measured for frame flex via the Lippert standard, which is will clearly fail, which will then clear the way to get a mobile Lippert technician out to you to inspect and attempt to stabilize the failure so transport can be reasonably safe. What you have cannot be completely fixed in the field. Not only does the slide box have to come out and the cap off, the forward baggage doors and skin will need to be removed, and your laminated wall peeled open to repair the broken aluminum welds and reinforce the portal framing. The only way they'll be able to complete this in a week for you at the factory is if they put multiple techs on it, which is a rare thing. Most of the time, this is a 2 to 4 week repair, depending on what they find when opened and if they need Lippert to come inspect and direct repairs or perform the frame repairs. Patience and kindness are indeed important, but you have a more serious problem with your coach than one that can wait "'til next year" after you tow to Florida and back... ALL manufacturers are acutely aware of the frame failure issues and very sensitive to the matter, and you have frame failure. Use the leverage afforded by others. Good luck to you both!
@@robv4053 thanks for all the info. We are now working with the VP of Services at Alliance to try and get squared away. Wish us luck on getting in. We DO NOT want to take it to a service repair shop, as we know the wait times can be ridiculous.
You do not know that as fact. There are many different things that can cause this problem.
@waltfriedrich7631 No, there really isn't. Unlike most folks, I have seen the failures myself, repaired a number of them as I am also a welder, SCWI, and a CWEng, and have witnessed Lippert, two established RV frame and body repair shops, as well as repairs in two manufacturers' facilities. Damage they have at opposing corners is due to torsion, and the house framing could no longer resist it. Broken weld(s) will be found streetside. All can be repaired, but the longer it goes without repair and is towed, the more of a problem it will be. This problem has been around a long time. It's only just become more prevalent due to the COVID-19 RV boom with 10s of thousands of more units out there that were also assembled with too much speed and too little quality control. If you want to blame these impacted owners for causing the failure, blame the roads, blame use of an RV as an RV, I certainly cannot stop that. However, all indicators are pointing to a failed structural frame weld somewhere roadside.
@@robv4053 you sir get me wrong. I am not blaming anyone!!! Unlike you I want it opened up and see what actually caused the issue. I have been around RVs since the 80s...was an RV rep in the 90s... know gas, arc welding and MIG welding and have engineering backgrounds. You have a foregone mind when it should be open. Let's see what they find before throwing accusations.
@waltfriedrich7631 I'm not throwing accusations but learned, experienced opinion as someone who practices heavily in forensic failure analyses and have been around this issue many times. I'm glad you have a technical background because you then understand there is urgency in this situation, but your RV knowledge from the 90s is not really relevant to current construction. Stick and tin was still dominate, many manufacturers made their frames, lamination was in its infancy, fundamental design premise was the frame carried the box, and so-on. I, too, want it opened for the sake of the owners to be repaired. However, it's definitely going to reveal broken weld(s). Alliance, unlike many of their competitors also adheres the house walls to the steel deck tubes with a Sika adhesive in addition to the lateral lag screws through the tube into the stuffed aluminum wall tubing and vertical screws up through the steel sill plates into the stuffed aluminum wall tubing. The house box stays integral with the frame because of this adhesive bond. This is one of the reasons why it is so obviously a frame failure, and the house box is now exhibiting fatigue failures in the aluminum framing. Lippert and the manufacturers rely on an intact "shell" - the frame and the house acting as one to perform. When one fails, the other can handle some readjustment of the loads temporarily - all structures are designed for slow (yielding) failure and not catastrophic (instant) failure. However, this is a temporary state, and once failure has begun, it will accelerate if loads conditions are not mitigated and repairs enacted, especially with dynamic loading conditions. The overall point of my posting was for the owners to understand there's a higher level urgency with the cause of the damage that's finally manifested into an easily observed condition. Based on their response, they became aware of this sooner, given their elevated conversation with Alliance.
Latest Update: we spoke again with our Rep at Alliance, and he stated he didn’t receive our last 2 emails, no problem. However, we did learn that you can actually schedule an exact date to get work at the factory, it will just be much later. In our case we will have to wait until April next year due to things on our personal schedule. Additionally, he is also going to make a request to get us into the factory in November, if available, we just have to wait for September 1st to submit the request.
As far as Frame Failure, or Frame Flex, he assured us the Alliance has not had ANY of these issues with there units, and that we were not experiencing this either. Time will tell.
Some may be wondering if we would recommend buying an Alliance RV, the answer is still yes, at this time. They really do try to do what is right by the customer.
We are going to do an update video this week to discuss the latest on this situation with the factory. We have some good information to talk about. If you are not subscribed, now would be a good time to do so.
Our RV sales has a full service building so we take Bonnie to them for work
Do you mind me asking the name of the place?
@@SeaSaltPine AOK rv Laurie Missouri near Lake of the ozarks
@@missouritravelers Thanks so much. Never know when you might need it. 😉
We need Addys input on this issue!!
@@carlosdelvalle3729 She hasn’t been wanting to participate as much lately. Not sure why
We are seriously considering buying a Alliance 385FL
Knowing what you know now, would you switch to a different manufacturer or stick with Alliance?
@@RVLifeWithTheMuirs we believe Alliance is one of the best RV companies out there today. That is why we chose them in the first place.
😢
You guys, things break, but that is not normal breaking. BTW, our Tandara has not broken yet after 3 years of full time. Why are you protecting Alliance? They sold you a shoddy product that has frame failure. Period!
@@yvonnearce8267 This is exactly why we made this video. These comments are very helpful to us. We are certainly giving some real thought to the frame failure issue, and we are going to start pressing the issue with the factory to get in ASAP.
You have to remain flexible but maybe an RV should not be so flexible? Once in a while I wonder if much less luxurious and more robust may be desirable.
@@brucegordon4992 It does seem like the pricing is not matching the quality necessarily these days.
Hello Allies! Since you are full timers, when was the last time you had your rig weighed? The "crack" you are referring to is not actually a CRACK, it is a tear in the seem tape covering an expansion joint, you will see on the opposite side (outside) a black metal strip that is screwed through these two panels to allow for independent movement by design. Regarding the closet, is there any visual issues on the outside? These interior panels are just finish panels and are not structural and are susceptible to movement from vibration and road shock. To say "Extensive Repairs" is misleading and is not right to put this onto any manufacturer, this is more cosmetic. As far as the leveling system, have you done a "Zero Point Calibration" per the Lippert manual? These will and do get out of calibration over time and need to be re-zeroed. Alliance RV is hands down is the best in the industry when it comes to customer service. We don't want to sound like a Shill, but after 4-5th wheel RVs by other manufacturers, no other RV manufacturer comes close to what Alliance has to offer all around, especially from a customer service standpoint. There is no "frame failure" as some would state, some are now questing weather to purchase an Alliance. What is not told often enough is how happy buyers are with their Alliances, us being one of them. The Alliance community is one of a kind, it is a FamAlly, any Allie would stop and help any other Ally in a split second if needed. This is what Alliance is about, it is a lifestyle, a family of likeminded people I hope your viewers walk away from this video knowing things happen, it is how we overcome challenges that matter.
@@tyersontheroad2607 Thanks for watching and commenting. When we are saying extensive repairs, it is because we were told by our rep at Alliance that the bedroom slide will need to be removed and the front end cap will need to be removed also in order to fully diagnose and make repairs necessary. To us, that is pretty extensive. We do weigh our unit throughout the year to make sure we are not overloading.
As for the leveling system, we have recalibrated it several times. It does tend to get out of whack when traveling.
@@SeaSaltPine Awesome, look forward to your update drop!
My secret….copious amounts of alcohol