@@SpideyfanX Artoria is still loved despite Saber Alter being also loved by the community. You also have characters like Okita and Nitocris who people love just as much as their Alter versions.
Its because of how Type Moon has been treating Jalter in FGO by giving her a continued story arc with the theme of temporary existence as a fake servant who only lives because of Chaldea. Jeanne Ruler meanwhile has her interludes basically show how Jalter's ghost used Mephistopheles to create a scenario to make herself summonable as an alternate Jeanne. Then summer Jeanne is basically a joke character with the nursing handjob provider...I mean big sister archetype. All the while Summer Jalter continues Jalter's personal storyline as a transient being that is then carried over in Avenger's 2nd interlude.
No its literally just people like edgy things. Why is dantes popular? Edge. Why are alters popular? Edge. So on and so forth. Its litteraly not hard, don't over complicate the original reason.
I wish I could like Sieg, but apocrypha just feels like they took too many characters at once and weren’t able to flesh them out in a satisfying way, and Sieg is the perfect example of that.
And I started liking him after the Apocrypha collab in FGO where they made better use of his character by letting his personality shine. Him acting like a curious child was quite befitting and trying to talk like a mysterious elder dragon as Fafnir was funny. Even gets an absolutely wholesome valentines scene where he makes a painting of Fafnir burning a monster because he heard that it can be a good luck charm to keep away monsters in dreams at bedtime.
He should had lost both to karna and shirou and the red side should low diff the black side. The onlything the black side have is siegfried and vlad the reason I don't bring up chiron he knew he couldn't beat mordred and I'm not even sure he can beat atalanta who was going toe for toe against jeanne D arc.
@@okita_souji_alter well actually I am not a VN reader. Zero was the thing that got me into Fate. So after that watched Deen Version first so you know "People will die if they are Killed" Sh!t, So I wasn't a big fan of him. Then I watched UBW and I was like "He is fine I guess". But then I watched Heaven's feel and I was like "You know what, I f*cking love this guy". So when I watched Apocrypha I was like "So this Shirou's replacement. Are F*cking kidding me?". But still Gil Supremacy, nobody top the King for me.
@@rejoicingfakepriest201 indeed, when the dude defetead dragons no mortal should be able too with just sword skills and a single magic sword. My Boi needs more recognition, as a Siegfried simp this I demand
@@durrangodsgrief6503 I wonder about that too, if both are the same but different versions of the same hero of the same kind of legend of a dragon slayer then is it possible there also exist a version of them that posses each other power and weapons in a single spirit graph?
@@durrangodsgrief6503 OMG WRONG !!! Siegfried and Sigurd arent the same heroic spirit. No it's not one of those thing like with Vlad III where he look different as a lancer when summoned in romania . Sigurd is from norse mythology. Siegfried is from Germany. >:^)
It would have been interesting to see Sieg Siegfried use Siegfried's final ascension with the Dragon horns, scales and wings; have them both fly around and then have Sieg fight in his Fafnir form since the only time Sieg fights in Fafnir form is during the Apocrypha event. I would love to see Fafnir in a fight. But I suppose I'll have to settle for when Melusine releases her NP in an anime.
You know, I’ve never really hated Sieg as a character, but as a protagonist he is absolutely OP in the context of the story he’s in. They really should have toned him down.
This summarizes my issues with sieg's power advancement perfectly. He's simply far too op, and for all the wrong reasons. Put it this way: shirou with archers arm, can spam nine lives, while having Excalibur and having none of the drawbacks of archers arm
@@RealLifeIronMan except they are not. Shirou is balanced out by his internal conflicts, flaws and his losses. His idea of heroism is greatly challenged by EMIYA in UBW and has to reevaluate his wish and come to terms with the realities associated with it (that's why I call UBW archer route than Rin route). Heaven's Feel tests his ideals further. It presents him with a trolley problem like Kiritsugu. Save people from the shadow by killing Sakura which is still injustice due to everything being forced into Sakura or try to save her at the cost of more innocent lives. Look at that scene in HF where Shirou tries to kill her in her sleep but breaks down. A Gary stu wouldn't show human weakness like that.
@@RealLifeIronMan Shiki and Shirou have flaws Sieg is almost like a made up Oc character inserted into fate. It bad when you are the one of the least memorable characters even though you are the main character. People Remember Achilles, Atalanta, Karna, Astolfo, Chiron, Vlad, Jack The Ripper, Mordred, Siegfried, Jeane D’Arc, Amakusa, Semiramis And Spartacus more than him. That is not Ok.
Not really, using his Servant powers does in fact shorten his life span and weaken his body, making face Fafnir in his nightmares and getting killed over and over again Which is why Jeanne keep telling him to avoid using his Dragon Command Seals often They think to use it against Jack but avoid to so eventually for that reason, Sieg even start sparring with some Fighter Homunculus trying to be useful as a normal person, but still getting stomped, they also think of using Balmug to counter the Hanging Gardens defenses and attack but they says it would be a waste and avoid it It's not such an easy power up
You guys remember when seigfried saved ruler and challenged karna and his master said "its two against one now" then karna did a slight chuckle and said while cracking his knuckles "I don't care either way but if you guys wanna fight me you better start now" and flexed his Aura
Yeah and in the LN, Karna was winning because Siegfried was constantly getting injured despite armor of fafnir reducing the damage. It was basically too many strikes hitting him in the fraction of a second. And his master was running out of mana slowly from constantly healing him. Made me respect Gordes more.
@@rebelblade7159 you do realise Siegfried had to make sure his master wouldn't get killed right ? Just because he was fighting karna didn't mean the red faction assassin or any others servants couldn't sneak in and kill his master while he was busy . He also couldn't start going all out and risk gorde being caught in the blast or debris being projected at incredible speed. So the fact he was more on the defensive wasn't because he was weaker than karna but because unlile karna he had to keep an eye on his master.
@@notforyou2893 that would be a good point. Except both were having fun, especially Siegfried due to Karna being able to actually hurt him through Armor of Fafnir. He was quite excited but the novel made it clear who was clearly the better fighter overall in terms of skill. That and Jeanne was beside Gordes. She might have interfered if Assassin tried to interrupt since Red faction pretty much made itself her enemy at that point. Plus the novel did not say that Siegfried was having trouble due to keeping and eye on Gordes. He was too fixated on the fight anyways.
@@rebelblade7159 Ruler wasn't here to protect gorde she was here to witness the fight between servant to make sure it doesn't involve bystander. If gorde was caught lacking by a servant she wouldn't help him at all. The narration said Siegfried and Karna were equal, that is further prooved in the anime and the manga where we can see they are on equal footing . :^3
To me Sieg is in the epicenter of so much of what went wrong with Apocrypha. On top of adding to an already excessive cast, and taking a major chunk of the time that could have been spent looking into how the characters interact and exploring they're interesting stories, his presence distorted the flow of the story. Depending on what was convenient things would be drawn to or away from him, adversity existed to give him more allies or powerups, and even the personalities of pretty much the entire cast were enslaved to making him 'look better'. People with no qualms about rows upon rows of homunculus being treated as objects and their leader eating baby's souls were all too keen to become selfless and empathetic around Sied. Jeanne's whole deal about being neutral would always be thrown out the window the moment Sieg got involved. Siegfried just up and decided his one independent action had to be committing suicide to save him, Achilles wins the fight against his mentor (who by the way, has the balls to then proceed to break a pretty basic honorable agreement by nuking Achilee's heel right after making him a request for help despite losing), Mordred and her master were probably the closest to acting independent even around Sid, with Mordred making Jeanne give her command seals for her services (though of course Sieg also got some command seals too, just because), but even they took an L against Semiramis essentially forfeiting the war right there. Even the bloody grail seemed to be on his side, just casually making him Astolfo's master. The biggest strength of Apocrypha in my view is the sheer synergy in the servants that were picked. It was a show very much reliant on the servant's backstories in both understanding how cool those fights are, the motives of their actions and behavior and the wonderful result of them being in the same place. Jack the loli's interaction with Atalanta is incredibly interesting because of their background in fate. Achilles and Chiron were mentor and student. Vlad just being the basis for dracula and absolutely despising it. I think this being so important is why the servant's identities are pretty much given right away unlike the typical holy grail war fate entries, you need to establish who they are because who they are is the core of the show. But you can't commit to most of the potential here, or give it time to explain especially if the audience isn't as familiar with them, if on top of the existing constraints you have to establish this whole plank of wood that everything needs to be warped just to make him survive let alone be the hero and center of the story. The biggest of all these problems for me personally is what they did to Shiro. Man was one of those few villains who had a genuinely functional plan to save the world, and give mankind a kind of eternal happiness. He had the power, he had the means, and there was no secret ulterior motive, in fact he even went over how to learned to forgive those who had brought him all that grief. Yeah he controlled the masters, but he won over most of the servants under him with charisma and persuasion, not force, he personally had the power to handle himself in battle and he had the smarts to make good plans and even think of preparing contingencies for things like Shakespeare.... and all of it got folded by some random homunculus with plot armor.
Well Shirou's TRUE desire to rid humanity of evil entirely wouldn't be achieved because he thought immortality would automatically do that. Even then, it would still move humanity to a better direction due to mastery over death no longer being an effective tool of power. Plus Jeanne and Sieg brought no better arguments than just calling Amaksua bad and blind idealism that humanity is good. And we have servant verse proving that Amakusa's plan wouldn't ruin humanity like how Sieg fans claim.
Yea that fight was some straight bullshit there’s no way in hell you can convince me otherwise, shit had me laughing how bad that asspull was. At least the animation was 🔥
I honestly do like Sieg, but there definitely was room for him as well as other characters to grow. With there being an additional 7 servants from the usual holy grail war, there was bound to be development missing across the entire board. Now I haven't read the light novel/source material, but the anime only being 24~25 episodes (its been a while sry), that's definitely not enough time to get deep with Sieg and the cool other servants. There could have been points to create Sieg gaining emotions as he now holds Siegfried's heart or a deterioration in his body/mind from the power he's using constantly. At least fgo gives a bit more light after he enters his servant form from his original self.
I did read the Light Novel, and Sieg is much much better than in the anime When I watched the anime I tried to be impartial and enjoy what he had to offer, and while he wasn't my favourite Nasu protagonist by a long shot he wasn't that bad The Novel does a far greater job in giving him more personality and more inner conflict, and he started to grow on me really fast His relationship with Jeanne there makes sense and is enjoyable to read His whole journey to discover what Humanity is really about and what's the right answer to Amakusa Plan is actually quite endearing He genuenly studied books on Amakusa and went days after days before the final fight to actually understand his plan and if what he was doing was right The fact that in the anime they skipped over all the days of rest before the final fight where all the characters have their time to reflect on what do to and what they want is truly one of the things that bother me so much about the adaptation That's genuenly the best pre-final fight I saw in the whole Nasuverse and it deserve praise
@Void man, I still haven't read the FSN visual novel, but now you're making me want to pick up the apoc novels. Thank you for the explanation and your thoughts. This might just be the way to fill the missing void I've seen from Apocrypha.
@@Nothingness4907 its sad how they removed some of the best parts of the light novel or changed them drastically. Jack's Whitechapel illusion with that scene of a chain reaction of deaths caused by a piece of bread was absolutely brilliant in showing the fundamental problem with human society that Amakusa wanted to fix. Meanwhile anime turned it into a generic black and white scene of a guy trying to rape loli Jeanne. Probably done due to a fear of Twitter backlash since abortion was a sensitive issue in the US. Plus removing Astolfo's short speech was just so wrong. And they removed Sisigo's monologues too. But it made Jeanne X Sieg look even more forced. It heavily implied that it was Laeticia who liked Sieg in one scene and Jeanne was made to look like a cold hearted person who wanted to win by sacrificing Sieg because revelation said so. Plus her simping was even more annyoing and they had no meaningful interactions that typical ecchi crush attitude from Jeanne and Sieg...being indifferent.
@@lumberboi8592 unfortunately, volume 5 still hasn't been fully translated yet. But I'd still read volume 1-4 due to how some of the scenes shine on their own despite not solving Apocrypha's fundamental issues with writing.
@Rebelblade 71 I love the fateverse, and got to watch all the animated series last year. I will definitely check out more ln, manga, and especially the vn when I get the chance to.
He was never killed and his link to Sieg ensured that he had a constant supply of mana. Let alone the fact that servants can still stay in the real world even after an HGW like Rider in HF route ending. Plus Astolfo is no joke as a servant and is far capable than Sieg. His Trap of Argalia: Down with a Touch can instantly immobilize opponents and make them fall over if they don't have magic resistance, opening them up to a fatal blow in melee combat. His Grimoire can negate magic and Hippogriff can phase between dimensions to dodge attacks. And La Black Luna is a pretty good NP for clearing hordes of enemies. Plus his monstrous strength allows him to boost his physical power to the point of being able to effortlessly restrain Jeanne who has B rank STR. He has his heroic moment in Traum in FGO and even Charlmagne comments how his abilities are suited to wreaking havoc and causing confusion. in Fate/Extella Link. He might be hard to take seriously due to trap and easygoing personality but he's quite a powerhouse with a very versatile kit that many servants would be envious of. Mind you, he managed to single handedly take out all of the Hanging Garden's EX rank defense mechanisms while also bypassing Karna.
@@YamiKaiba Bad(I can't actually tell since I never actually watched Apocrypha) writing is not the same as plot armour. Plot armour would have been a situation in which Astolfo finds Achilles shield under a pile of rubble during the Karna fight without prior set-up. If Achilles gives Astolfo his shield beforehand, though... Then that is a plot *point*. Bad or good is subjective, but it's not plot armour
Really have to make a video covering Apocrypha, there's just so much that could have been done with this story and it falls flat at every opportunity Good thing Strange/Fake is just the better Apocrypha
Isn't strange/fake also technically the sequel to the original fate stay/night timeline? At least I hope it is. That is the thing that bugs me a about apocrypha. It made it seem like the 4th holy grail war never happened and it is a new timeline yet you get characters like waver who still has iskandar's relic as if he was still a participant of the previous grail war.
Except Fujimaru in the manga like Mortalis Stella is a FAR better character. And even his barebones and almost nonexistent character in game has his moments and instead acts like a plot device in the story of other characters, including Sieg's in the Apocrypha collab that made him miles better than Apocrypha. Its a stark contrast to how Sieg's spotlight is wasted in Apocrypha and his interactions with other characters are just awful compared to FSN and FGO.
I still stand by this forever sieg was not supposed to beat karna he had one biggest plot armor that fight comes to show how OP karna is. Than I truly believe that shirou amakusa should had won in the end and plus he has potential to be one the best antagonist ever if given more time. The red side was cleary more powerful than the black side like bro karna,Achilles,semiramis,atalanta is enough for them to win the whole thing. I was mad when sieg was just matching shirou like where was the Frankenstein buff against jack the ripper,karna,avicebron.
Thankfully, FGO fleshes out his character even more but as a heroic character who sometimes acts on his own agendas. They have both serious story events and some lighthearted moments that all make him even more likeable. His second interlude has him face his alternate reality self that gave into his anger. And boy Amakusa just straight up toys with him and mocks him like he's a joke before ending him. A stark contrast to Jeanne and her mental breakdown in Orleans when facing Jalter, which needed Fujimaru and Marie to help her recover. Even Sieg acknowledges that Amakusa had a noble wish which makes it even clear that he's better than Jeanne.
I really like the idea that you can transfrom into that servant like sieg. Sad that it not really use much in the nasuverse. Like i guess the card system in prisma could count but here they transfrom in to more like a psudo servent
And also i would like that if they don't give them the power even he not transfrom,just let him be useless when Jeanne use her np and then before she gone give him some command spell to transfrom once last time before turning into the dragon
The thing is he could have been better, it's just that apocrypha is just to short for the amount of character it has and he was reintroduced not even at the start, he probably got less time for development than shinji
Honestly, I just don't get the people getting mad at the Karna fight. It took 3 servants backing Sieg to beat him. If anything, that just speaks more volumes on Karna's own strength.
@@JoJoMadara that and Sieg's plot armor let us see the full arsenal of Karna unleashed in all its animated glory and how a galvanism+Command spell boosted Balmung looks puny in comparison. Same Balmung with a CS boost wiped out Jalter and Fafnir together in Mortallis Stella.
Now, I like Sieg but only because he is an Homunculus. A Homunculi that is a badass (even with plot on his side) is something I have always wanted. There's just something about a powerful Homunculi that has little time to live that makes me like him.
If it was more like Illya’s magic crest in that with alchemy, having the power of transfer a flow of energy with that make it more possible for him to passively learn Siegfried’s combat ability and berserkers abilities as well, a passive stance due to him, unconsciously doing it, and or when he enters Siegfried's form, and only keeping a fraction of the experience and knowledge like how Shiro did with archer's arm and him being able to keep up with Shirou kotomine speed by using berserks ability to override what is humanly not plausible by constantly pushing his body's limits just to make up the difference for not having muscle memory nor a body for combat making it more believable
Maybe like,render Sieg be WAY weaker and slower, maybe even goofy, than Siegfried,but able to use the power of frankenstein to a better extent because it is based on magical power, like,Frakenstein's powers of course work and recharge by converting energy and Sieg is a literal battery, and from a narrative prospective, you could say both Sieg and Frankenstein are both similar in nature as artificial beings, which would make Sieg stronger and have more sinergy because of that similar nature,yet even at that point Siegfried's renounce of his heart would still feel forced into the story. In my opinion if Frankenstein was the only one who revitalized Sieg by leaving a fragment of her inside him after she died during her battle, it would have made so much more sense, it would have given Sieg only technical abilities while making him less op by making him not a great fighter but a very powerful living bomb, his story would actual focus on the artificial nature and activism about homunculi he was about, the romance with Jeanne could still fit as he would see what homunculi should feel and aim for and such as he SLOWLY understood that he fell for her, and they could have flashed out more the story of Frankenstein which is one of the best in Apocrypha in my opinion if it wasnt so shortly presented.
Well actually the reason is because the writers weren't about that Frankenstein life, and wanted her gone so people don't realize that a mute zombie girl manages to be a way more interesting character than Cardfeid-kun 🤓🥸🤓 Shigeru Nasu (Also known as Mr. Stay Night in Cambodia) himself said- and I quote- "Sieg is my self insert so I wanted him to be as strong as possible without writing a compelling character. Remember Shirou Emiya? I had to take out several loans and was hospitalized from writing him. That's why Fujimaru is my masterpiece."
Except plot armor is often made to seem more natural by tying to the character's internal conflict to make it seem more worthy than just pure coincidences stacking on top of one another.
@@alispeed5095 OMG. Karna had a deal with caules to defeat sieg the homunculus before his transformation end. Just after karna was stabbed in the heart sieg transformation expired which meant karna couldn't do anything to him at that point. At that point karna got everything he wanted so he just chilled until he died: - His rematch against Siegfried even if it was really Siegfried. - He got to save not only his master but also the others red master. - He protected the hanging garden like he said he would.
@@alispeed5095 The stab killed him because he no longer had his armor on him. Using Vasavi Shakti horrifically nerfs him because his armor that disappears upon the use of that Noble Phantasm. Again alot of these complaints are people not understanding the servants' abilitites.
its a stupid insult that doesn't need a response. Like might as well call him big dummy. Like you litteraly rubbed your 2 brain cells together just to copy everyone elses insult huh?
Quite fitting if you consider how the story bends to glorify him at the expense of properly exploring its themes. But I'd also argue Jeanne ruins stuff in many ways. Especially Revelations ordering her to make use of Sieg was a lame Deus Ex Machina that people ignore. Its forceful justification that Jeanne is right because "God said so." Funny how FGO makes use of it sparingly and rarely for major plot conveniences.
Aside from Sieg's powerscaling cheese, him beating the more fleshed out characters like Amakusa, while having little to no character development that the audience can empathize with is the cherry on top. You mentioned that in an earlier video and would have been perfect to bring up here. EDIT: It was something along the lines of "Kid who lives 14 days crushing the ideals of someone with centuries experience."
Kirito was arguably more interesting than homunculus Pinocchio wanting to become a real boy. Alot of the servants in apocrypha were super interesting but for some reason they focused alot on some random homunculus.
Kirito had everything Sieg didn't. Despite SAO's bad writing, his romance with Asuna was well developed and natural. Plus Kirito had his own dark times and flaws like not being able to save some of his friends and being anti social.
What was that last take? Cause it's mad retarded of a question, he's the main character obviously they focus on him regardless how bad he is written, that's his position to be MC, the fuck kinda question is that 💀
I still hate how the writers portrayed siegfried he was a giant asshole in a majority of iterations literally in this siegfrieds position hed laugh at astolfo and throw many insults and just let sieg die it feels like his personality and the change in his legend were for the person of him being a giant sacrifice for sieg showed by the fact hes the only one with a radical change in his lore which is stupid to me and this change literally messed up his lore turning him from the murdered hero into the suicidal hero who screws everybody over and not to mention Kriemhild who's entire story would be none existent of hagen or Gunther told her the truth also the fact that a singular siegfried or sigurd shoudnt exist both are treated under the same legend as the same person even being a quote regarding him as the best of men and to be spoken of by both the Nords and germs or something along that line and this split means you can literally have any version of a character like a Cath palug artoria
@@rejoicingfakepriest201 no hes the one with the most radical change in this story even Fran keeps the original tale despite being a genderbend I mean it literally effects other characters such as hagen and Kriemhild and to me this siegfried is boring and unrealistic hes just the cliche selfless hero a fitting combination as both he and sieg are cardboard protags
TM's portrayal is more interesting because it shows how Siegfried's own unquestionable altruism brought his own downfall because he never learned how to say no and is a big part of Kriemhild's character as she hates that aspect of Siegfried due to how he ended up and even rebukes Sieg for doing the same. His sacrifice also led to Gunther harboring hatred against him for killing himself without thinking about his friends. Its a more self aware and human perspective to the story. And Sigurd is treated differently in Fate.
@@rebelblade7159 it's not a human perspective since Siegfried doest act human and the ending is very convenient he acts like the most unrealistic version of a hero if you can even call him that and theirs even the fact that kriemhild story would be nonexistent if either told the Truth shes the protagonist of the Nibelungenlied what story would their be this adds nonsensical overcomplications to a story of a hero murdered and a wife avenging him I personally don't like this sigurd specifically for brynhildrs personality and the way they treat gudrun
This video reaffirmed that he has the highest amount of plot armor I’ve seen on an mc. There are definitely higher plot armor mc’s out there but I haven’t seen them yet. Still like Sieg and Apocrypha though
Maybe like,render Sieg be WAY weaker and slower, maybe even goofy, than Siegfried,but able to use the power of frankenstein to a better extent because it is based on magical power, like,Frakenstein's powers of course work and recharge by converting energy and Sieg is a literal battery, and from a narrative prospective, you could say both Sieg and Frankenstein are both similar in nature as artificial beings, which would make Sieg stronger and have more sinergy because of that similar nature,yet even at that point Siegfried's renounce of his heart would still feel forced into the story. In my opinion if Frankenstein was the only one who revitalized Sieg by leaving a fragment of her inside him after she died during her battle, it would have made so much more sense, it would have given Sieg only technical abilities while making him less op by making him not a great fighter but a very powerful living bomb, his story would actual focus on the artificial nature and activism about homunculi he was about, the romance with Jeanne could still fit as he would see what homunculi should feel and aim for and such as he SLOWLY understood that he fell for her, and they could have flashed out more the story of Frankenstein which is one of the best in Apocrypha in my opinion if it wasnt so shortly presented.
OK not gonna lie. I don't remember half of the scenes you showed from Apocrypha. Was it a 2 part movie? Did I miss stuff? I watched it multiple times if I recall.... but I also have a tendency to stop and start movies in increments so... idk.
bro Im over here wondering how the fuck this man did something that would require some fgo grail shit like corrupting him I can get but stripping away the core part of heracles character his divinity the reason he had to endure his labors the very reason for his story thats something that should be impossible like stripping gods protection form David it should require a grails magic the attempt alone should have killed him
@@okita_souji_alter exactly that should require fgo singularity grail wishes to accomplish since your not changing aspects of the story but removing integral parts and the very reason it happened alcides should be a wraith because without his Divinity their is no tale of heracles
That’s why he’s the goat🗣️🔥🔥🔥 But seriously I like Sieg and his power are so interesting specially after becoming fafnir and accruing a holy grail but yeah the author did a horrible job one of the reasons I hate apocrypha is the other imagine having an interesting cast of characters and a mc with interesting powers while being an empty paper for you to fill but you fail miserably
Not gonna lie, I really wanted to like sieg character, but by the end of the Apocrypha story the writing tries TOO hard to give him this much abilities and barely gave other servants time in the spotlight. Sure there is nothing wrong with giving a main character one or two OP abilities for them to master but at the cost of their character and motivations?? And at the cost of Jeanne Arcs character development too?? It still bothers me to this day, luckily fgo did a crossover event with Apocrypha. It may not fix ALL the problems in Apocrypha but it was a decent event to cap off the story and servants nevertheless.
I am Seig's NO.1 biggest hater, if theres 5M people that hates Seig, im one of them, if theres 5 people that hates Seig, im one of them, if theres 1 person hating on Seig, that person is me, if theres none left means im dead, on my death bed i will always hate seig
Never read the Light Novel, but the anime pissed me off with what an asspull him pulling out Fran's Noble Phantasm was. There was litteraly zero foreshadowing for it he just won because the plot said he had to. At least they did him better in FGO and the Appoc event. It's ironic that "Cardboard-Kun" actualy now has way more personality than FGO's on protag.
So basically emiya and sieg are the same but different mechanisms the their legit weakness i remember watching both of them is though dumb plot and i have theory why sieg that so broken possible he a advanced type of homonculus than the og homoculus
Its like saying a sportscar and a toy car are the same because both are things with four wheels that lets them move. And the homonculi used by Gordes are confirmed to be inferior copies of what Einzberns made like Illya.
I was pissed because you started out thinking Mordred and her master were the main characters and they were cool as hell. Then they got replaced by Sieg and Jeanne, who are the most bland and boring characters on the show. Cmon now.
sieg is mid, boring and bland. when i saw apocrypha i didnt really care for the guy. amakusa was that ninja though. that boi had class. also plot armor is to fate as water is to fish. apocrypha is just bad writing all around. and i dont like astolfo at all. yuck.
@@okita_souji_alter That’s because he’s honorable but that gets on my nerves sometimes and Astolfo jumping in was stupid followed by the use of another’s noble phantasm. It’s so dumb.
@@okita_souji_alter Yeah I know and that’s what bothers me. Not to mention the fight they were throwing nuclear bombs basically. And Karna tanks it all. But the moment his armor is off and he is poked by a metal stick, he dies.
@@okita_souji_alter It's not necessarily OP for no reason. He was saved by those who exhibited legitimately heroic ideals and compassion. Also he develops a personality, but it takes awhile because he was literally born 2 weeks ago. His character doesn't fully come to full fruition until the Karna fight and him developing his own world view when he's refuting Gilles de Rais' "Salvation" ramblings
Ok hold on y’all let’s just breathe for a minute. I get it Sieg isn’t your favorite character/protagonist. I wouldn’t put him in my top 5 either. But we got to play it fair out here. After all he’s not the only Fate protag with some cheats here and there. Heck we got the Ritsuka(s), The Hakuno(s), and our poster Boy Shirou. All of them busted out some crazy stuff & feats to make it through their wars/series. So shouldn’t we just let Sieg slide with this whole cheating thing?
Ritsuka(s), Hakuno(s), and Shirou all have something Sieg lacks: Character Development, Charm, and a PERSONALITY. Their development was what made their abilities EARNED. Sieg had everything handed to him on a silver platter.
Absolutely not because that would be a dishonest and ignorant rejection of nuanced views, which many Sieg fans do when bashing people for criticizing Sieg. The way Sieg differs is how his plot armor is unnatural and unearned on top of his bad writing in Apocrypha that was only redeemed by how FGO treated him. For characters like Shirou, they have internal conflicts that go well beyond just winning fights and test who they are as characters. Shirou has to rethink his ideals after Archer shows him the reality in UBW while HF tests him further with Sakura presenting him a trolley problem where he'd do injustice in both ways. For Ritsuka, they get the benefit of being an actual self insert game character. You can fill in the blanks and it would complete them. Plus Rituska does not affect FGO in the negative way Sieg does in Apocrypha. Their war crimes in the lostbelt are treated as what they are and are shown to affect them with Servants like Amakusa trying to help us (his interlude 2 is a banger). Meanwhile Rituska has far more natural relationships with servants that allows the story to explore their characters. Compare that to Sieg that causes Jeanne to become a lusty teenager in his presence. Then compare how Tomoe Gozen and Ritsuka interact. We get to see Tomoe's past in her interlude when she brings that up after she asks Ritsuka if they have any family or children back home. Then in Setsubun, when Shuten Reveals that Tomoe is an oni, Rituska stands by her regardless, claiming how they do not care who or what their servants are because they are grateful for answering their summons. See how Tomoe is treated with dignity and has her character explored while Jeanne is reduced to a sexualized prize, complete with a first person proposal scene in the end for the horny incels that light novel adaptations are aimed towards.
Except the fact that...shirou is killing himself and isn't overpowered for no reason like sieg? Shirou is basically going to die in heaven's feel every five seconds, he BLEW HIS BRAINS OUT fighting Heracles
Okay, the title is very misleading and innacurate. Sieg "Cheated" implies that he actually did something BY HIMSELF to make the odds stack in his favor to give him the win in otherwise unwinnable situations like what Joseph Joestar does in Battle Tendency. Sieg did absolutely NOTHING and just had to be in the right place at the right time to have everything given to him automatically. I wish Sieg defeated Karna by outsmarting him using Siegfried's disengage to dodge Vasavi Shakti by moving away and then move towards the grail so that Karna is forced to stop due to the possibility of destroying the Grail. They could have done so much if fights were more smarter. Also note how his servant time limit matters not at the end of the day. Take Ben 10 for instance where Ben gets into trouble numerous time due to his omnitrix timer running out and has to use his wits to survive, leading to some tense moment. In Apocrypha, Sieg's timer seems to ALWAYS last as long as the plot wants and never runs out during a critical situation. You gotta ask yourself, WHAT'S THE POINT OF HAVING THE TIMER THEN? This is bad writing and shows how shortsighted the author was. Kriemhild was a great addition to both Sieg and Siegfried's story. It not only adds a different and more human perspective to Siegfried's character but her mother role towards Sieg and how she reacts to Sieg throwing away his life is just wholesome. Kriemhild herself is a better character than Jeanne due to actually being a positive story influence for other characters and not being a plot armor/prize who couldn't bring a valid argument against Amakusa. Also some errors in the video. Sieg is not the fastest Balmung Spammer. Living Siegfried is the fastest followed by Sieg due to galvanism and last is Servant Siegfried
I feel like he's the reason why people don't appreciate Ruler Jeanne as much as Jalter, and that's really funny to me.
Yeah Sieg's entire existence honestly negatively impacted Jeanne's character as a whole.
@@SpideyfanX Artoria is still loved despite Saber Alter being also loved by the community. You also have characters like Okita and Nitocris who people love just as much as their Alter versions.
@@ash2crimson968 Exactly. None of these characters were negatively impacted by a cardboard like Sieg
Its because of how Type Moon has been treating Jalter in FGO by giving her a continued story arc with the theme of temporary existence as a fake servant who only lives because of Chaldea. Jeanne Ruler meanwhile has her interludes basically show how Jalter's ghost used Mephistopheles to create a scenario to make herself summonable as an alternate Jeanne. Then summer Jeanne is basically a joke character with the nursing handjob provider...I mean big sister archetype. All the while Summer Jalter continues Jalter's personal storyline as a transient being that is then carried over in Avenger's 2nd interlude.
No its literally just people like edgy things. Why is dantes popular? Edge. Why are alters popular? Edge. So on and so forth. Its litteraly not hard, don't over complicate the original reason.
I wish I could like Sieg, but apocrypha just feels like they took too many characters at once and weren’t able to flesh them out in a satisfying way, and Sieg is the perfect example of that.
And I started liking him after the Apocrypha collab in FGO where they made better use of his character by letting his personality shine. Him acting like a curious child was quite befitting and trying to talk like a mysterious elder dragon as Fafnir was funny. Even gets an absolutely wholesome valentines scene where he makes a painting of Fafnir burning a monster because he heard that it can be a good luck charm to keep away monsters in dreams at bedtime.
The only issue is they did basically nothing with Siegfried and rushed his death
Plot Armor is the only thing that saves this homunculus from getting killed most of the times throughout the war.
He should had lost both to karna and shirou and the red side should low diff the black side. The onlything the black side have is siegfried and vlad the reason I don't bring up chiron he knew he couldn't beat mordred and I'm not even sure he can beat atalanta who was going toe for toe against jeanne D arc.
@@kinglightning5256ok for atalanta there is the caviat where she cheated and essentially became a beserker/archer hybrid using the boar hide
His existence made me appreciate Emiya shirou and I thank him for that.
@@okita_souji_alter well actually I am not a VN reader. Zero was the thing that got me into Fate. So after that watched Deen Version first so you know "People will die if they are Killed" Sh!t, So I wasn't a big fan of him. Then I watched UBW and I was like "He is fine I guess". But then I watched Heaven's feel and I was like "You know what, I f*cking love this guy". So when I watched Apocrypha I was like "So this Shirou's replacement. Are F*cking kidding me?". But still Gil Supremacy, nobody top the King for me.
I feel bad that every Fate protagonist has to be compared to Shirou. It's like comparing every Robin to Dick Grayson.
@@flamelover1746I mean when you've crafted gold the first time, crafting copper the next time would be seen as disappointing
@@justacatwithasadface2692 It's ironic, cause Shirou is supposed to be the Fake, but in the hearts of the fans, he's the true original of Fate.
@@flamelover1746 "no law saying a fake can't surpass an original" and all that, props to Shirou
Im still waiting for that don't sleep on Siegfried
@@rejoicingfakepriest201 indeed, when the dude defetead dragons no mortal should be able too with just sword skills and a single magic sword. My Boi needs more recognition, as a Siegfried simp this I demand
@@rejoicingfakepriest201 fafnir is a true dragon something like vritra though I dont like the split of sigurd and siegfried he is very powerful
@@durrangodsgrief6503 I wonder about that too, if both are the same but different versions of the same hero of the same kind of legend of a dragon slayer then is it possible there also exist a version of them that posses each other power and weapons in a single spirit graph?
@@durrangodsgrief6503 OMG WRONG !!!
Siegfried and Sigurd arent the same heroic spirit.
No it's not one of those thing like with Vlad III where he look different as a lancer when summoned in romania .
Sigurd is from norse mythology.
Siegfried is from Germany.
>:^)
Same but I want that don't sleep on Astolfo more.
It would have been interesting to see Sieg Siegfried use Siegfried's final ascension with the Dragon horns, scales and wings; have them both fly around and then have Sieg fight in his Fafnir form since the only time Sieg fights in Fafnir form is during the Apocrypha event. I would love to see Fafnir in a fight. But I suppose I'll have to settle for when Melusine releases her NP in an anime.
You know, I’ve never really hated Sieg as a character, but as a protagonist he is absolutely OP in the context of the story he’s in. They really should have toned him down.
This summarizes my issues with sieg's power advancement perfectly. He's simply far too op, and for all the wrong reasons.
Put it this way: shirou with archers arm, can spam nine lives, while having Excalibur and having none of the drawbacks of archers arm
@@RealLifeIronMan you could just watch a shirou or shiki character analysis.
@@RealLifeIronMan except they are not. Shirou is balanced out by his internal conflicts, flaws and his losses. His idea of heroism is greatly challenged by EMIYA in UBW and has to reevaluate his wish and come to terms with the realities associated with it (that's why I call UBW archer route than Rin route). Heaven's Feel tests his ideals further. It presents him with a trolley problem like Kiritsugu. Save people from the shadow by killing Sakura which is still injustice due to everything being forced into Sakura or try to save her at the cost of more innocent lives. Look at that scene in HF where Shirou tries to kill her in her sleep but breaks down. A Gary stu wouldn't show human weakness like that.
@@RealLifeIronMan Shiki and Shirou have flaws Sieg is almost like a made up Oc character inserted into fate. It bad when you are the one of the least memorable characters even though you are the main character.
People Remember Achilles, Atalanta, Karna, Astolfo, Chiron, Vlad, Jack The Ripper, Mordred, Siegfried, Jeane D’Arc, Amakusa, Semiramis And Spartacus more than him. That is not Ok.
@@alispeed5095 its not
Not really, using his Servant powers does in fact shorten his life span and weaken his body, making face Fafnir in his nightmares and getting killed over and over again
Which is why Jeanne keep telling him to avoid using his Dragon Command Seals often
They think to use it against Jack but avoid to so eventually for that reason, Sieg even start sparring with some Fighter Homunculus trying to be useful as a normal person, but still getting stomped, they also think of using Balmug to counter the Hanging Gardens defenses and attack but they says it would be a waste and avoid it
It's not such an easy power up
You guys remember when seigfried saved ruler and challenged karna and his master said "its two against one now" then karna did a slight chuckle and said while cracking his knuckles "I don't care either way but if you guys wanna fight me you better start now" and flexed his Aura
Yeah and in the LN, Karna was winning because Siegfried was constantly getting injured despite armor of fafnir reducing the damage. It was basically too many strikes hitting him in the fraction of a second. And his master was running out of mana slowly from constantly healing him. Made me respect Gordes more.
@@rebelblade7159 you do realise Siegfried had to make sure his master wouldn't get killed right ?
Just because he was fighting karna didn't mean the red faction assassin or any others servants couldn't sneak in and kill his master while he was busy .
He also couldn't start going all out and risk gorde being caught in the blast or debris being projected at incredible speed.
So the fact he was more on the defensive wasn't because he was weaker than karna but because unlile karna he had to keep an eye on his master.
@@notforyou2893 that would be a good point. Except both were having fun, especially Siegfried due to Karna being able to actually hurt him through Armor of Fafnir. He was quite excited but the novel made it clear who was clearly the better fighter overall in terms of skill.
That and Jeanne was beside Gordes. She might have interfered if Assassin tried to interrupt since Red faction pretty much made itself her enemy at that point. Plus the novel did not say that Siegfried was having trouble due to keeping and eye on Gordes. He was too fixated on the fight anyways.
@@rebelblade7159 Ruler wasn't here to protect gorde she was here to witness the fight between servant to make sure it doesn't involve bystander. If gorde was caught lacking by a servant she wouldn't help him at all.
The narration said Siegfried and Karna were equal, that is further prooved in the anime and the manga where we can see they are on equal footing .
:^3
@@notforyou2893 I don,t think so.Karna is stated to be Gilgamesh level.
To me Sieg is in the epicenter of so much of what went wrong with Apocrypha. On top of adding to an already excessive cast, and taking a major chunk of the time that could have been spent looking into how the characters interact and exploring they're interesting stories, his presence distorted the flow of the story. Depending on what was convenient things would be drawn to or away from him, adversity existed to give him more allies or powerups, and even the personalities of pretty much the entire cast were enslaved to making him 'look better'. People with no qualms about rows upon rows of homunculus being treated as objects and their leader eating baby's souls were all too keen to become selfless and empathetic around Sied. Jeanne's whole deal about being neutral would always be thrown out the window the moment Sieg got involved. Siegfried just up and decided his one independent action had to be committing suicide to save him, Achilles wins the fight against his mentor (who by the way, has the balls to then proceed to break a pretty basic honorable agreement by nuking Achilee's heel right after making him a request for help despite losing), Mordred and her master were probably the closest to acting independent even around Sid, with Mordred making Jeanne give her command seals for her services (though of course Sieg also got some command seals too, just because), but even they took an L against Semiramis essentially forfeiting the war right there.
Even the bloody grail seemed to be on his side, just casually making him Astolfo's master.
The biggest strength of Apocrypha in my view is the sheer synergy in the servants that were picked. It was a show very much reliant on the servant's backstories in both understanding how cool those fights are, the motives of their actions and behavior and the wonderful result of them being in the same place. Jack the loli's interaction with Atalanta is incredibly interesting because of their background in fate. Achilles and Chiron were mentor and student. Vlad just being the basis for dracula and absolutely despising it. I think this being so important is why the servant's identities are pretty much given right away unlike the typical holy grail war fate entries, you need to establish who they are because who they are is the core of the show. But you can't commit to most of the potential here, or give it time to explain especially if the audience isn't as familiar with them, if on top of the existing constraints you have to establish this whole plank of wood that everything needs to be warped just to make him survive let alone be the hero and center of the story.
The biggest of all these problems for me personally is what they did to Shiro. Man was one of those few villains who had a genuinely functional plan to save the world, and give mankind a kind of eternal happiness. He had the power, he had the means, and there was no secret ulterior motive, in fact he even went over how to learned to forgive those who had brought him all that grief. Yeah he controlled the masters, but he won over most of the servants under him with charisma and persuasion, not force, he personally had the power to handle himself in battle and he had the smarts to make good plans and even think of preparing contingencies for things like Shakespeare.... and all of it got folded by some random homunculus with plot armor.
Well Shirou's TRUE desire to rid humanity of evil entirely wouldn't be achieved because he thought immortality would automatically do that. Even then, it would still move humanity to a better direction due to mastery over death no longer being an effective tool of power. Plus Jeanne and Sieg brought no better arguments than just calling Amaksua bad and blind idealism that humanity is good. And we have servant verse proving that Amakusa's plan wouldn't ruin humanity like how Sieg fans claim.
Oh man, I can tell this is going to get personal.
O yeah been waiting for this for ever! No way he should have beat Karna!
Literally even after astolfo used Achilles noble phantasm karna still should had won.
Yea that fight was some straight bullshit there’s no way in hell you can convince me otherwise, shit had me laughing how bad that asspull was. At least the animation was 🔥
I honestly do like Sieg, but there definitely was room for him as well as other characters to grow. With there being an additional 7 servants from the usual holy grail war, there was bound to be development missing across the entire board.
Now I haven't read the light novel/source material, but the anime only being 24~25 episodes (its been a while sry), that's definitely not enough time to get deep with Sieg and the cool other servants. There could have been points to create Sieg gaining emotions as he now holds Siegfried's heart or a deterioration in his body/mind from the power he's using constantly.
At least fgo gives a bit more light after he enters his servant form from his original self.
I did read the Light Novel, and Sieg is much much better than in the anime
When I watched the anime I tried to be impartial and enjoy what he had to offer, and while he wasn't my favourite Nasu protagonist by a long shot he wasn't that bad
The Novel does a far greater job in giving him more personality and more inner conflict, and he started to grow on me really fast
His relationship with Jeanne there makes sense and is enjoyable to read
His whole journey to discover what Humanity is really about and what's the right answer to Amakusa Plan is actually quite endearing
He genuenly studied books on Amakusa and went days after days before the final fight to actually understand his plan and if what he was doing was right
The fact that in the anime they skipped over all the days of rest before the final fight where all the characters have their time to reflect on what do to and what they want is truly one of the things that bother me so much about the adaptation
That's genuenly the best pre-final fight I saw in the whole Nasuverse and it deserve praise
@Void man, I still haven't read the FSN visual novel, but now you're making me want to pick up the apoc novels. Thank you for the explanation and your thoughts. This might just be the way to fill the missing void I've seen from Apocrypha.
@@Nothingness4907 its sad how they removed some of the best parts of the light novel or changed them drastically. Jack's Whitechapel illusion with that scene of a chain reaction of deaths caused by a piece of bread was absolutely brilliant in showing the fundamental problem with human society that Amakusa wanted to fix. Meanwhile anime turned it into a generic black and white scene of a guy trying to rape loli Jeanne. Probably done due to a fear of Twitter backlash since abortion was a sensitive issue in the US. Plus removing Astolfo's short speech was just so wrong. And they removed Sisigo's monologues too.
But it made Jeanne X Sieg look even more forced. It heavily implied that it was Laeticia who liked Sieg in one scene and Jeanne was made to look like a cold hearted person who wanted to win by sacrificing Sieg because revelation said so. Plus her simping was even more annyoing and they had no meaningful interactions that typical ecchi crush attitude from Jeanne and Sieg...being indifferent.
@@lumberboi8592 unfortunately, volume 5 still hasn't been fully translated yet. But I'd still read volume 1-4 due to how some of the scenes shine on their own despite not solving Apocrypha's fundamental issues with writing.
@Rebelblade 71 I love the fateverse, and got to watch all the animated series last year. I will definitely check out more ln, manga, and especially the vn when I get the chance to.
Being a Type Moon protagonist is one hell of a drug.
My real question is how in hell did Astolfo survive considering he never won a single fight.
He was never killed and his link to Sieg ensured that he had a constant supply of mana. Let alone the fact that servants can still stay in the real world even after an HGW like Rider in HF route ending.
Plus Astolfo is no joke as a servant and is far capable than Sieg. His Trap of Argalia: Down with a Touch can instantly immobilize opponents and make them fall over if they don't have magic resistance, opening them up to a fatal blow in melee combat. His Grimoire can negate magic and Hippogriff can phase between dimensions to dodge attacks. And La Black Luna is a pretty good NP for clearing hordes of enemies. Plus his monstrous strength allows him to boost his physical power to the point of being able to effortlessly restrain Jeanne who has B rank STR. He has his heroic moment in Traum in FGO and even Charlmagne comments how his abilities are suited to wreaking havoc and causing confusion. in Fate/Extella Link. He might be hard to take seriously due to trap and easygoing personality but he's quite a powerhouse with a very versatile kit that many servants would be envious of. Mind you, he managed to single handedly take out all of the Hanging Garden's EX rank defense mechanisms while also bypassing Karna.
@@YamiKaiba and what this has to do with my current comment about Astolfo's own kit being quite capable?
Man's luck is his highest stat
A+ luck, he is just built different
@@YamiKaiba Bad(I can't actually tell since I never actually watched Apocrypha) writing is not the same as plot armour. Plot armour would have been a situation in which Astolfo finds Achilles shield under a pile of rubble during the Karna fight without prior set-up. If Achilles gives Astolfo his shield beforehand, though... Then that is a plot *point*. Bad or good is subjective, but it's not plot armour
Really have to make a video covering Apocrypha, there's just so much that could have been done with this story and it falls flat at every opportunity
Good thing Strange/Fake is just the better Apocrypha
Isn't strange/fake also technically the sequel to the original fate stay/night timeline? At least I hope it is. That is the thing that bugs me a about apocrypha. It made it seem like the 4th holy grail war never happened and it is a new timeline yet you get characters like waver who still has iskandar's relic as if he was still a participant of the previous grail war.
A new Tsiah video in the middle of my current Tsiah video binge. I love it!!
He had his phone out under the desk the whole time with no shame
Considering all the buff sieg has he still needed achilles' shield to win against karna.
😂😂😂 I like how you ended the video. The man is a walking chest code, if he ever went up against Emiya for whatever reason, Sieg would outclass him 😎
Dang good video. You should give your take on the strongest servants in the verse like a top 10 or 20
What happened, happened Dogg
All we can do is cry and move on fr
Ah yes, Fate's famous cardboard with enough plot armor to make even Shirou Emiya blush.
Ritsuka Fujimaru: *scoff* "Weak sauce."
Shiro doesn't have any plot armour
Read the novels
@@abhinandannandan3863
I have. I’m aware of the bad ends and Avalon.
@@raymondyongho5757 Cool,
Put some respect on Shigoat
Except Fujimaru in the manga like Mortalis Stella is a FAR better character. And even his barebones and almost nonexistent character in game has his moments and instead acts like a plot device in the story of other characters, including Sieg's in the Apocrypha collab that made him miles better than Apocrypha. Its a stark contrast to how Sieg's spotlight is wasted in Apocrypha and his interactions with other characters are just awful compared to FSN and FGO.
I still stand by this forever sieg was not supposed to beat karna he had one biggest plot armor that fight comes to show how OP karna is. Than I truly believe that shirou amakusa should had won in the end and plus he has potential to be one the best antagonist ever if given more time. The red side was cleary more powerful than the black side like bro karna,Achilles,semiramis,atalanta is enough for them to win the whole thing. I was mad when sieg was just matching shirou like where was the Frankenstein buff against jack the ripper,karna,avicebron.
Thankfully, FGO fleshes out his character even more but as a heroic character who sometimes acts on his own agendas. They have both serious story events and some lighthearted moments that all make him even more likeable. His second interlude has him face his alternate reality self that gave into his anger. And boy Amakusa just straight up toys with him and mocks him like he's a joke before ending him. A stark contrast to Jeanne and her mental breakdown in Orleans when facing Jalter, which needed Fujimaru and Marie to help her recover. Even Sieg acknowledges that Amakusa had a noble wish which makes it even clear that he's better than Jeanne.
I'm glad I suffer for greatness rather than cheat my way through it
I really like the idea that you can transfrom into that servant like sieg. Sad that it not really use much in the nasuverse. Like i guess the card system in prisma could count but here they transfrom in to more like a psudo servent
And also i would like that if they don't give them the power even he not transfrom,just let him be useless when Jeanne use her np and then before she gone give him some command spell to transfrom once last time before turning into the dragon
The thing is he could have been better, it's just that apocrypha is just to short for the amount of character it has and he was reintroduced not even at the start, he probably got less time for development than shinji
Ohh that's easy. He did some heavy stuff... Called Uhh... P L O T.
Sieg: I have the power!
I can hear the seething
Honestly, I just don't get the people getting mad at the Karna fight. It took 3 servants backing Sieg to beat him. If anything, that just speaks more volumes on Karna's own strength.
@@JoJoMadara that and Sieg's plot armor let us see the full arsenal of Karna unleashed in all its animated glory and how a galvanism+Command spell boosted Balmung looks puny in comparison. Same Balmung with a CS boost wiped out Jalter and Fafnir together in Mortallis Stella.
Now, I like Sieg but only because he is an Homunculus.
A Homunculi that is a badass (even with plot on his side) is something I have always wanted.
There's just something about a powerful Homunculi that has little time to live that makes me like him.
The hate is real.
If it was more like Illya’s magic crest in that with alchemy, having the power of transfer a flow of energy with that make it more possible for him to passively learn Siegfried’s combat ability and berserkers abilities as well, a passive stance due to him, unconsciously doing it, and or when he enters Siegfried's form, and only keeping a fraction of the experience and knowledge like how Shiro did with archer's arm and him being able to keep up with Shirou kotomine speed by using berserks ability to override what is humanly not plausible by constantly pushing his body's limits just to make up the difference for not having muscle memory nor a body for combat making it more believable
It makes sense I just don't understand why in the fucking hell do people hate on it so much
Sieg is plot powered bs
Man might as well be a isekai protagonist
I actually think the base idea behind Sieg could've been done pretty well, but he was really poorly executed.
Maybe like,render Sieg be WAY weaker and slower, maybe even goofy, than Siegfried,but able to use the power of frankenstein to a better extent because it is based on magical power, like,Frakenstein's powers of course work and recharge by converting energy and Sieg is a literal battery, and from a narrative prospective, you could say both Sieg and Frankenstein are both similar in nature as artificial beings, which would make Sieg stronger and have more sinergy because of that similar nature,yet even at that point Siegfried's renounce of his heart would still feel forced into the story.
In my opinion if Frankenstein was the only one who revitalized Sieg by leaving a fragment of her inside him after she died during her battle, it would have made so much more sense, it would have given Sieg only technical abilities while making him less op by making him not a great fighter but a very powerful living bomb, his story would actual focus on the artificial nature and activism about homunculi he was about, the romance with Jeanne could still fit as he would see what homunculi should feel and aim for and such as he SLOWLY understood that he fell for her, and they could have flashed out more the story of Frankenstein which is one of the best in Apocrypha in my opinion if it wasnt so shortly presented.
Siegfried can hardness True Ether you know the real good shit a type of power source which now also belong to Sieg too...
sigh.
Well actually the reason is because the writers weren't about that Frankenstein life, and wanted her gone so people don't realize that a mute zombie girl manages to be a way more interesting character than Cardfeid-kun 🤓🥸🤓
Shigeru Nasu (Also known as Mr. Stay Night in Cambodia) himself said- and I quote- "Sieg is my self insert so I wanted him to be as strong as possible without writing a compelling character. Remember Shirou Emiya? I had to take out several loans and was hospitalized from writing him. That's why Fujimaru is my masterpiece."
I mean tbf he is a main character so cheating is one of his abilities
I mean sure every MC has plot armor but at least try to hide the plot armor better
Except plot armor is often made to seem more natural by tying to the character's internal conflict to make it seem more worthy than just pure coincidences stacking on top of one another.
You have just surpassed the Dead Sea in the level of saltiness. Enjoy.
lol
Karna fans: Sieg beat Karna is such a asspull!!!
Sieg fans: hey don't blame the player just blame the game.
he cheated AND Karna basically threw.
Karna goat
No. Sieg was one step ahead in the final sword strike. Balmung was discarded, but he still had Astolfo's sword.
@@alispeed5095 OMG.
Karna had a deal with caules to defeat sieg the homunculus before his transformation end.
Just after karna was stabbed in the heart sieg transformation expired which meant karna couldn't do anything to him at that point.
At that point karna got everything he wanted so he just chilled until he died:
- His rematch against Siegfried even if it was really Siegfried.
- He got to save not only his master but also the others red master.
- He protected the hanging garden like he said he would.
@@alispeed5095
The stab killed him because he no longer had his armor on him. Using Vasavi Shakti horrifically nerfs him because his armor that disappears upon the use of that Noble Phantasm. Again alot of these complaints are people not understanding the servants' abilitites.
I defined him to my friends as a Cardboard Leech. I have yet to be proven wrong on that observation.
its a stupid insult that doesn't need a response. Like might as well call him big dummy. Like you litteraly rubbed your 2 brain cells together just to copy everyone elses insult huh?
Quite fitting if you consider how the story bends to glorify him at the expense of properly exploring its themes. But I'd also argue Jeanne ruins stuff in many ways. Especially Revelations ordering her to make use of Sieg was a lame Deus Ex Machina that people ignore. Its forceful justification that Jeanne is right because "God said so." Funny how FGO makes use of it sparingly and rarely for major plot conveniences.
Bro all they had to do was make mordred and her master the mc and apoc would’ve cooked fr.
Ngl, I'm not feeling this one but at least you're not telling folks to burn Sieg
Thanks for this.
Mordred and Kairi should have had the screen time Sieg
You know I would like Adam from the bible in Fate.
Enkidu is technically Adam, so there
@@emiyashirou1858 enkidu are the chains of heaven not the first Man.
Aside from Sieg's powerscaling cheese, him beating the more fleshed out characters like Amakusa, while having little to no character development that the audience can empathize with is the cherry on top. You mentioned that in an earlier video and would have been perfect to bring up here.
EDIT: It was something along the lines of "Kid who lives 14 days crushing the ideals of someone with centuries experience."
Kirito was arguably more interesting than homunculus Pinocchio wanting to become a real boy.
Alot of the servants in apocrypha were super interesting but for some reason they focused alot on some random homunculus.
Kirito had everything Sieg didn't. Despite SAO's bad writing, his romance with Asuna was well developed and natural. Plus Kirito had his own dark times and flaws like not being able to save some of his friends and being anti social.
What was that last take? Cause it's mad retarded of a question, he's the main character obviously they focus on him regardless how bad he is written, that's his position to be MC, the fuck kinda question is that 💀
I still hate how the writers portrayed siegfried he was a giant asshole in a majority of iterations literally in this siegfrieds position hed laugh at astolfo and throw many insults and just let sieg die it feels like his personality and the change in his legend were for the person of him being a giant sacrifice for sieg showed by the fact hes the only one with a radical change in his lore which is stupid to me and this change literally messed up his lore turning him from the murdered hero into the suicidal hero who screws everybody over and not to mention Kriemhild who's entire story would be none existent of hagen or Gunther told her the truth
also the fact that a singular siegfried or sigurd shoudnt exist both are treated under the same legend as the same person even being a quote regarding him as the best of men and to be spoken of by both the Nords and germs or something along that line and this split means you can literally have any version of a character like a Cath palug artoria
@@rejoicingfakepriest201 no hes the one with the most radical change in this story even Fran keeps the original tale despite being a genderbend I mean it literally effects other characters such as hagen and Kriemhild and to me this siegfried is boring and unrealistic hes just the cliche selfless hero a fitting combination as both he and sieg are cardboard protags
TM's portrayal is more interesting because it shows how Siegfried's own unquestionable altruism brought his own downfall because he never learned how to say no and is a big part of Kriemhild's character as she hates that aspect of Siegfried due to how he ended up and even rebukes Sieg for doing the same. His sacrifice also led to Gunther harboring hatred against him for killing himself without thinking about his friends. Its a more self aware and human perspective to the story.
And Sigurd is treated differently in Fate.
@@rebelblade7159 it's not a human perspective since Siegfried doest act human and the ending is very convenient he acts like the most unrealistic version of a hero if you can even call him that and theirs even the fact that kriemhild story would be nonexistent if either told the Truth shes the protagonist of the Nibelungenlied what story would their be this adds nonsensical overcomplications to a story of a hero murdered and a wife avenging him
I personally don't like this sigurd specifically for brynhildrs personality and the way they treat gudrun
This video reaffirmed that he has the highest amount of plot armor I’ve seen on an mc. There are definitely higher plot armor mc’s out there but I haven’t seen them yet. Still like Sieg and Apocrypha though
Maybe like,render Sieg be WAY weaker and slower, maybe even goofy, than Siegfried,but able to use the power of frankenstein to a better extent because it is based on magical power, like,Frakenstein's powers of course work and recharge by converting energy and Sieg is a literal battery, and from a narrative prospective, you could say both Sieg and Frankenstein are both similar in nature as artificial beings, which would make Sieg stronger and have more sinergy because of that similar nature,yet even at that point Siegfried's renounce of his heart would still feel forced into the story.
In my opinion if Frankenstein was the only one who revitalized Sieg by leaving a fragment of her inside him after she died during her battle, it would have made so much more sense, it would have given Sieg only technical abilities while making him less op by making him not a great fighter but a very powerful living bomb, his story would actual focus on the artificial nature and activism about homunculi he was about, the romance with Jeanne could still fit as he would see what homunculi should feel and aim for and such as he SLOWLY understood that he fell for her, and they could have flashed out more the story of Frankenstein which is one of the best in Apocrypha in my opinion if it wasnt so shortly presented.
Siege got hand job powerups
When he countered vasavi shakti with that dumbass plot armour it was too much. Really a good show with shit plot
I still like Sieg. My boy boxing with Amakusa
Bro got too op
SIEG is who people who don't know about the novels think SHIROU EMIYA is.,
Put this man in any fate madia and watch him start mobbing and taking their skills
😂😂😂😂😂😂
Sieg and Jeanne couple I have never liked if it was Siegfried and Jeanne I would have loved that
Sig should have died and Siegfried should’ve lived.
This remind me of sour taste drop the show because of sieg asspull 😂
Why he gotta expose my nigga.
What does Frankenstein power do??? I just remember she is absorb some power from the environment.
Nah they was definitely hoeing with sieg, I don't care. Karna had his own W stolen, for nothing no less
Can you do a video on Ishtar from strange fate?
OK not gonna lie. I don't remember half of the scenes you showed from Apocrypha. Was it a 2 part movie? Did I miss stuff? I watched it multiple times if I recall.... but I also have a tendency to stop and start movies in increments so... idk.
Please do one on bazdilot cordelion thank you
bro Im over here wondering how the fuck this man did something that would require some fgo grail shit like corrupting him I can get but stripping away the core part of heracles character his divinity the reason he had to endure his labors the very reason for his story thats something that should be impossible like stripping gods protection form David it should require a grails magic the attempt alone should have killed him
@@rejoicingfakepriest201 yeah that plot armor and broken lore just be hitting nice
Basically fates Loid forger alter(yeah I know its a different anime) or the albert wesker of fate.
@@okita_souji_alter exactly that should require fgo singularity grail wishes to accomplish since your not changing aspects of the story but removing integral parts and the very reason it happened alcides should be a wraith because without his Divinity their is no tale of heracles
That’s why he’s the goat🗣️🔥🔥🔥
But seriously I like Sieg and his power are so interesting specially after becoming fafnir and accruing a holy grail but yeah the author did a horrible job one of the reasons I hate apocrypha is the other imagine having an interesting cast of characters and a mc with interesting powers while being an empty paper for you to fill but you fail miserably
I get the small feeling you don’t like Sieg
Not gonna lie, I really wanted to like sieg character, but by the end of the Apocrypha story the writing tries TOO hard to give him this much abilities and barely gave other servants time in the spotlight. Sure there is nothing wrong with giving a main character one or two OP abilities for them to master but at the cost of their character and motivations?? And at the cost of Jeanne Arcs character development too?? It still bothers me to this day, luckily fgo did a crossover event with Apocrypha. It may not fix ALL the problems in Apocrypha but it was a decent event to cap off the story and servants nevertheless.
I am Seig's NO.1 biggest hater, if theres 5M people that hates Seig, im one of them, if theres 5 people that hates Seig, im one of them, if theres 1 person hating on Seig, that person is me, if theres none left means im dead, on my death bed i will always hate seig
Okay
real
Goddamn copypasta
you just crying because he ended up with jeanne
Tsiah yeen ain't like his cooking 🤣 I didn't like how they did my dawg Karna yoo tho
Do Siegfried in don't sleep on
Average Homunculus W
Never read the Light Novel, but the anime pissed me off with what an asspull him pulling out Fran's Noble Phantasm was.
There was litteraly zero foreshadowing for it he just won because the plot said he had to.
At least they did him better in FGO and the Appoc event. It's ironic that "Cardboard-Kun" actualy now has way more personality than FGO's on protag.
So basically emiya and sieg are the same but different mechanisms the their legit weakness i remember watching both of them is though dumb plot and i have theory why sieg that so broken possible he a advanced type of homonculus than the og homoculus
Its like saying a sportscar and a toy car are the same because both are things with four wheels that lets them move.
And the homonculi used by Gordes are confirmed to be inferior copies of what Einzberns made like Illya.
I was pissed because you started out thinking Mordred and her master were the main characters and they were cool as hell. Then they got replaced by Sieg and Jeanne, who are the most bland and boring characters on the show. Cmon now.
Towelie the towel is better written than seig.
I'd take a high towel over a wet peice of cardboard anyway.
Seig is my biggest OP IN REAL LIFE!!!
Towelie is hilarious
sieg is mid, boring and bland. when i saw apocrypha i didnt really care for the guy. amakusa was that ninja though. that boi had class. also plot armor is to fate as water is to fish. apocrypha is just bad writing all around. and i dont like astolfo at all. yuck.
B rank luck.
I HATE SIEG FOR WHAT HE DID TO KARNA
KARNA SHOULDVE WON
@@okita_souji_alter That’s because he’s honorable but that gets on my nerves sometimes and Astolfo jumping in was stupid followed by the use of another’s noble phantasm. It’s so dumb.
@@okita_souji_alter Yeah I know and that’s what bothers me. Not to mention the fight they were throwing nuclear bombs basically. And Karna tanks it all. But the moment his armor is off and he is poked by a metal stick, he dies.
I'm probably one of the few people who likes Sieg.
You're not alone, I happen to like him as well
Nah, I like him too.
@@JoJoMadara Brothers in arms then.
@@jaytheghoul Another brother.
@@okita_souji_alter It's not necessarily OP for no reason. He was saved by those who exhibited legitimately heroic ideals and compassion. Also he develops a personality, but it takes awhile because he was literally born 2 weeks ago. His character doesn't fully come to full fruition until the Karna fight and him developing his own world view when he's refuting Gilles de Rais' "Salvation" ramblings
Yeah I hate his character, cool power set but garbage character
Ok hold on y’all let’s just breathe for a minute. I get it Sieg isn’t your favorite character/protagonist. I wouldn’t put him in my top 5 either. But we got to play it fair out here. After all he’s not the only Fate protag with some cheats here and there. Heck we got the Ritsuka(s), The Hakuno(s), and our poster Boy Shirou. All of them busted out some crazy stuff & feats to make it through their wars/series. So shouldn’t we just let Sieg slide with this whole cheating thing?
Ritsuka(s), Hakuno(s), and Shirou all have something Sieg lacks: Character Development, Charm, and a PERSONALITY. Their development was what made their abilities EARNED.
Sieg had everything handed to him on a silver platter.
Absolutely not because that would be a dishonest and ignorant rejection of nuanced views, which many Sieg fans do when bashing people for criticizing Sieg. The way Sieg differs is how his plot armor is unnatural and unearned on top of his bad writing in Apocrypha that was only redeemed by how FGO treated him. For characters like Shirou, they have internal conflicts that go well beyond just winning fights and test who they are as characters. Shirou has to rethink his ideals after Archer shows him the reality in UBW while HF tests him further with Sakura presenting him a trolley problem where he'd do injustice in both ways. For Ritsuka, they get the benefit of being an actual self insert game character. You can fill in the blanks and it would complete them. Plus Rituska does not affect FGO in the negative way Sieg does in Apocrypha. Their war crimes in the lostbelt are treated as what they are and are shown to affect them with Servants like Amakusa trying to help us (his interlude 2 is a banger). Meanwhile Rituska has far more natural relationships with servants that allows the story to explore their characters. Compare that to Sieg that causes Jeanne to become a lusty teenager in his presence. Then compare how Tomoe Gozen and Ritsuka interact. We get to see Tomoe's past in her interlude when she brings that up after she asks Ritsuka if they have any family or children back home. Then in Setsubun, when Shuten Reveals that Tomoe is an oni, Rituska stands by her regardless, claiming how they do not care who or what their servants are because they are grateful for answering their summons. See how Tomoe is treated with dignity and has her character explored while Jeanne is reduced to a sexualized prize, complete with a first person proposal scene in the end for the horny incels that light novel adaptations are aimed towards.
Except the fact that...shirou is killing himself and isn't overpowered for no reason like sieg? Shirou is basically going to die in heaven's feel every five seconds, he BLEW HIS BRAINS OUT fighting Heracles
Okay, the title is very misleading and innacurate. Sieg "Cheated" implies that he actually did something BY HIMSELF to make the odds stack in his favor to give him the win in otherwise unwinnable situations like what Joseph Joestar does in Battle Tendency. Sieg did absolutely NOTHING and just had to be in the right place at the right time to have everything given to him automatically. I wish Sieg defeated Karna by outsmarting him using Siegfried's disengage to dodge Vasavi Shakti by moving away and then move towards the grail so that Karna is forced to stop due to the possibility of destroying the Grail. They could have done so much if fights were more smarter. Also note how his servant time limit matters not at the end of the day. Take Ben 10 for instance where Ben gets into trouble numerous time due to his omnitrix timer running out and has to use his wits to survive, leading to some tense moment. In Apocrypha, Sieg's timer seems to ALWAYS last as long as the plot wants and never runs out during a critical situation. You gotta ask yourself, WHAT'S THE POINT OF HAVING THE TIMER THEN? This is bad writing and shows how shortsighted the author was.
Kriemhild was a great addition to both Sieg and Siegfried's story. It not only adds a different and more human perspective to Siegfried's character but her mother role towards Sieg and how she reacts to Sieg throwing away his life is just wholesome. Kriemhild herself is a better character than Jeanne due to actually being a positive story influence for other characters and not being a plot armor/prize who couldn't bring a valid argument against Amakusa.
Also some errors in the video. Sieg is not the fastest Balmung Spammer. Living Siegfried is the fastest followed by Sieg due to galvanism and last is Servant Siegfried