World of Warcraft Retail is Unhinged! AHHHH
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- Опубліковано 16 кві 2024
- LET ME PLAY THE GAME AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
(once I got to play I really enjoyed myself btw)
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![The Official Warcraft Timeline [Lore]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/r8uzWxRGvMU/mqdefault.jpg)
The chatter asking "why did you start BfA anyway" is so funny to me - assuming a new player who started WoW retail literally 3 hours ago first of all knows what BfA is and that the quest he was given was in fact the beginning of BfA when it literally did not tell him that at all
He literally followed the campaign quests he was given out of the tutorial which up until that point were simple tutorials, that's it, and it just threw him into expansion content with zero explanation or backstory.
It's wild. He's taught about specializations and making an inn his home, then some npc runs into the inn and sends this fresh recruit off to see the bloody king of Stormwind for a briefing about some war then it's off to another continent for some reason.
@@apharys8921 And then the plot changes into some lady named "Jaina" getting arrested for crimes she committed in a bonus campaign on an expansion to a game from 2003.
A better question is, why is BfA even given as an option when it's several expansions out of date? 😒
Truly a case of home blindness, I had a friend walk me through the game when I first started and honestly there were times I felt like it was a chore and I just wanted to stop
"Now I'm watching characters from FROZEN yelling at each other" that right there
Noting that your character isn't even in the cutscenes is also pretty telling that they lost the plot on what MMOs are meant to be about. It's about the progression of YOUR character, man! It shouldn't be a story driven single player game.
The weird info overload of retail led even Day9 to not read all his spells and understand what they do. In classic the drip is more steady and he knew what everything did soon after getting it.
Similarly, he didn't use his mount much once he got it, whereas if he had played classic to 40 and been through all the looooong runs that entails, he'd surely cherish the mount speed as soon as it was available.
S tier insightful comment. Damn. Does classic feel like classic?
Doesn't seem like you need a mount all that badly in retail. It just teleports you wherever the story wants you to be.
true. classic has a fantastic start compared to this. game's mostly about killing shit and looting stuff. so you get a quest about killing shit and off you go. have fun with your 1 ability.
so simple.
@@ayuminor Mounts become necessary as soon as you start flying. You stop getting teleported around quite so much, unless your plan is to only do LFG, LFR, arenas, and BGs, in which case you literally never have to leave the capital city.
@@ayuminor Plus everything just knocks you off your mount in retail anyway (at least it did in Shadowlands... haven't played retail since then).
23:43 these villagers screaming 'Murderer!' are referring to the Orc bonus campaign of The Frozen Throne. So in 2018 these NPC's are referring to a something that you wouldn't get unless you played the 2003 bonus campaign of a Warcraft 3 expansion.
It is also covered in a lot of other tidbits over the years to be fair. Also as someone who likes to go in depth with a good franchise, i can't say i mind them not holding your hand. There is a better middleground than this to be reached however.
@@MartialArtzz Does anybody else hate responses like this? "I essentially agree with you but I like to hear myself talk so I'm going to nitpick you anyway for the sake of being contrary."
I like how you're fighting in every way possible to get back in control of the game. "NO! I Will assign the mount to the farthest possible location in the bar."
this whole experience really shows why the people wanted Classic back
Classic is only good when it's remixed with stuff like Hardcore and SoD. And even then, it's so sweaty that outside the levelling experience, it's just not as fun as it was back then.
@@shabadabadabada5133 nah, Classic still kicks ass, Era is doing great
It always really bothered me when people tried to dismiss the desire for Classic as people just being "nostalgic" or having "rose tinted goggles", when to anyone who experienced both vanilla and retail it should've been glaringly obvious how much the experiences had grown apart. That said, it does sadden me that classic got warped pretty quickly by the modern playerbase, but then it's not just the world of warcraft that changed, it's also the people that play it.
I'm really glad I got to experience Classic again though, for a good while it really did feel close to that original magic.
people didn't want classic back, did you try being one of us poor sods asking for vanilla back in 2014 - 2018? We got figuratively lynched. Only when classic was released did they know we were right all along.
@@isaacfaith9369 yeah, it's a shame they never released classic, since no one wanted it or even asked for it.
My favorite part was at 38:15 where the door clearly opens, the invisible wall stays behind, then the door snaps shut in a single frame before fading out and letting you pass. Absolutely insane lack of polish.
I don't know how anyone can watch a new player play WoW and not think that there is a problem. How Blizzard came up with Exile's Reach as the best way to get new players to play WoW is honestly astounding. If you are an existing player it is so simple as to be pointless, and as a new player, it is so monotonous that you don't feel like you are ever playing the actual game.
Retail WoW feels like it has an insecurity problem. It is so afraid that players won't stick around to play the game until max level that it refuses to let them have extended periods of actually playing the game until at least 2-3 hours in (long after most people have an idea of if they actually want to continue playing or not).
There are ways to make a WoW introduction that is in between the laissez-faire style of Classic WoW and the "refuse to have you make a mistake" style of Exile's Reach. Many games do it. WoW can do it. The fact that the best they could figure out was either to tell the players nothing or tell the players where to place their hands on their mouse and keyboard is kind of laughable for how large of a company Blizzard is.
This should be required viewing for every Blizzard developer.
I don't think the devs are the problem
@@Zolbat uh pretty sure they are
then you're as clueless as they are tbh
@@talesfromtheclassroom bad decisions on that scale are rarely made by the lowly devs
@@Zolbat k babe
Also the rant at 30:00 is the funniest thing I’ve seen months.
This
The rant is perfectly true too. I would love to see him buy a Character boost, I think it would be hilarious. I bought one after being away since BFA and I was like" I have no idea what's going on, why are there so many things to do???" In the end I just did pvp as I just couldn't understand all the dragon story crap going on.
😅😅😅kleenex
The one redeeming part of Shadowlands is when Blizzard deliberately tries to culture shock you the first time you arrive in Maldraxxus, when you arrive in the middle of a massive arena tournament and nobody cares about you as they're all watching the spectacle.
@@Orca007 A perfect example of someone with no mutual friends playing the game who also isn't willing to learn, search, or communicate with other players. MMOs are meant to be multiplayer. If you're willing to let someone post-it staple your forehead without having a conversation with them about the game, you'll never comprehend anything more complicated than pre-algebra type comprehension.
Speaking as a long time player, World of Warcraft Retail is not very friendly to new players:
- There is a mandatory path through the starting island that doesn't teach you though gameplay how the game works.
- You are almost on rails into the Battle for Azeroth expansion which is ok but starts really slowly.
- The story is not explained and characters are not introduced so if you have never played WoW or Warcraft 1-3 you have little hope of understanding what's going on.
The one good thing I will say is that pressing your buttons in combat feels buttery smooth as long as there's not enough people in the same area to cause lag.
If/when you continue playing if nothing else, read the spell and talent tooltips while checking your spellbook to make sure you have the spells you want on your bars.
it really feels like the leveling in retail was designed by someone who just dislikes the original game
And games in general.
@@smileychess indeed
Because it's a hodge podge of 18 years of gameplay smashed together. Cohesion isn't the idea.
It's really so strange. It's often said that players are great at finding problems in games but terrible at finding solutions, yet I feel fairly certain that the majority of the player base could come up with a better tutorial and leveling system for retail than this mess.
I wouldn’t know how to write tuturials for WOW but i dont many different games
That's one of my biggest complaints about world of warcraft . They force you to play the newest thing, and if you try to play the older content? yeah, you can do it, but they discourage it in a passive-aggressive way.
But its not like the expansions are masterpieces ether. Its just all bad.
I think remix is going to be the solution to this -
Im thinking they do rotating seasonal remixes of past content to give people reasons and incentives to lvl up old content with alts etc if mop does well
then they can actually unify the timeline of the live azeroth world (to avoid duplicate npcs from different actual times etc)
then you have tru vanilla; rotating past content with fun flavor; and live.
Not only do they discourage you but they don't offer any form of syncing for the content so you can experience it like it was back in the day, I give huge props for FF14 for allowing players to do that.
I came back to wow after 7yrs away to start playing midway through Legion and by the time we got to shadowlands I was already able to solo half the legion raids, it's stupid and robs the players of the impact of the events.
Retail WoW feels like the game itself is backseating you
Yes, that's why you have cleared the game on Mythic, yeah? And you have your glad mounts?
As someone who has cleared the game on Mythic several times, yes, the game brutally insults your intelligence constantly. Day9 literally cannot even play the game due to the number of pointless cutscenes, stupidly easy difficulty and lack of player agency. Why would you compare the earlygame of wow to the hyper endgame barely 1% of the playerbase ever even tries once.@@shabadabadabada5133
@@shabadabadabada5133 Yes because you're not allowed to have an opinion on the game until you clear the highest difficulty /s
What does this comment mean? The game is back seating you so it’s telling you what to do…. Like a tutorial? That strikes me as a good thing
You think the WoW tutorial is good? Or the new player experience for WoW is good? I love wow, and it is absolutely terrible.@@themInterwebs
I just thought about what i'd say to Sean to bring him up to speed lore wise for BFA and it sounds so hilarious i just wanne share it.
"SO last week on world of warcraft we traveled to another planet, killed its soul and thus removed the ability of the Burning Legion to respawn their now finite demons.
But then Sargeras took his cosmic sized sword to STAB Azeroth (the planet) and now its blood spills up as a powerful substance called Azerite which Azerothians turn into powerful weapons to fight each other over a dying planet."
This stuff is so much more fun than the shitshow that the Jailers story was.
For the longest time retail WoW has been terribly mismanaged. You can really see it from a new player's perspective like this
Right. You can tell they are NOT worried about bringing in new players.
You dont love 3 new gimmicks every expansion that wont matter at all when the next expansion drops? When leveling you just walk past tens of different mechanics that dont matter at all in any way to your character is peak game design!
@@OnetastyJoe At least they've been doing away with borrowed power nonsense with DF and TWW.
@@jaymzOG Well that is changing next expension and probably prepatch dragonflight is probably going to be leveling expension instead of BFA and that will be a massive improvement for new players.
Also remix pandaria comming which probably in the future will be part of leveling to make it more fun.
@@nulian It'll be an improvement, but you're still being thrown into the story as the hero of Azeroth after the very lackluster Exile's Reach. It's just a very neglected experience. There's no "the story so far," there's no dialog acknowledging you have no relationship with any of the DF NPCs, etc.
Retail really isn't a game until like 24 hours /played into max level. You're not crazy, it's actually just completely impenetrable and boring and confusing for new players.
It will be so much better when dragonflight is the leveling expension for new player it's just so much better then BFA. Also much more free opening with dragonriding and stuff.
@@nulian At least they didnt make shadowlands the started pack.
Although honestly i think it could've been better to send new players to mop campaign maybe.
Glad I never played it. Dota succeeded because it took all the bullshit of the MMO genre and flung it away.
@@nulian honestly there's absolutely nothing wrong with the cata revamp beginning questing, it's a much better default than any expansion.
Idk I think classes play far better in retail, plus quest design has just improved wildly over time. Some of my favorite content is leveling in retail
14:27 the guy in chat is so wrong because as a new player you wouldnt really do that because you would feel like youre missing out on the content.
Day9s criticism is completely valid.
Theres so much pointless forgettable filler that breaks up combat sessions
Of course hes lost, the new player experience sends him straight from the tutorial into 40 conversations and cutscenes.
Did they actually introduce Jaina or the king of stormwind properly?
As soon as you meet them, they're gone...
Also a few of the combats were borked due to other players mob tagging and increasing the scaling unintentionally
They killed the levelling experience to make it alt friendly, but as a new player in legion levelling from 1-100 was actually enjoyable going to all the previous zones with no heirloom gear overlevelling.
@@user-ob1sb1wf5p Who is Jaina? Who are the Proudmoores? Who's the king of Stormwind? What's Azeroth? Why are we battling? Who is Greymane? Who is he king of?
Nobody knows
@Nico78Not They know nobody even bothers to read quest text so why should they make a new player experience with any continuity?
When you hit 60/70/we, the game forces you to abandon whichever chronic chain you chose to continue progressing anyway.
This is somehow so much more unhinged and upsetting than I expected for retail lol. Classic and retail are just… not the same thing anymore
"What do you mean? Now we can play the game."
I’m a lifelong WoW player pretty much, and I definitely feel bad for anyone trying to pick up retail. I don’t play that version of the game anymore, I would rather say it’s quite overloaded.
Definitely fun to watch you play from a perspective of no knowledge. I can’t believe they threw you into a random expansion after a “tutorial” with years of missing context.
Retail's barrier of entry, while greatly reduced since BFA, is still pretty significant. There is so much available and I think Exile's Reach is not great for a brand new player. Things ramp up so quickly, you experience random things that really pull you out and things overall move a bit too fast. If you're up to date and playing at max level it is a lot of fun and in one of the best states it's been in a long time though. I would love another Cataclysm like expansion where there is a heavy emphasis on revamping the leveling content and improving the experience for new players. I just don't know how many new players WoW is getting these days vs retaining/brining back old players. Might not be worth it for them to invest a bunch of time and money.
@@z3llmer There is an easy solution... the classic leveling zones still exist and they have already implemented a bot system for heroic dungeons. They should just run people through the Original zones with bots standing by for elite quests and dungeons.
Make that the default experience with BFA and chromie timelines available as the alternative.
@@mufasafalldown8401I agree, classic zones should 100% be the default for new players with the option to level through expansion content for alts and such. Just delete Exile's Reach altogether and go back to basics.
@@apharys8921 You don't understand the retention rate for new players was extremely low before Exile's Reach. It is a bit better today, so Exile Reach is serving it's purpose, like it or not.
Retail has too many barriers to entry and then to add insult to injury they create all kinds of time sinks for no reason and no ability to sync old content to appropriate levels.
The mythic keys degrading upon failure is the worst thing I've ever seen in any RPG and then they make the outcome from the vault completely random, so all of your time spent running keys could end up completely wasted at the end of the week. Sure you can reroll stuff but why create that kind of system in the first place. Also nothing makes sense in pvp anymore and there's wayyy to many things happening in even a basic BG for any new player to get a good grasp on.
I remember even playing early wow getting stunlocked in town. Getting lost, turned around, aimless. (Heaven forbid I am horde and find myself in Undercity) The wild and little towns help me stay focused with quests leading me straight to the wild.
So obviously the Gross sales on SC2 were higher, but making digital horses has 0 overhead.
I dont know if it's true, but it actually seems incredibly plausible,
Remember it was NET PROFIT that was higher, not SALES
I believe it. One friggin horse costs about half as much as SC2 and WoW is far more popular.
The retail WoW tutorial is the real backseat boss.
@@willclark9543 I think you're confused.
@@willclark9543 There's multiple ways to learn how a game works, generally the one that people tend to enjoy the most is by, surprise, playing it. The best thing about old wow was that aside the time you were walking from A to B to deliver a quest or just go to a new zone, pretty much all the time you were playing, and if you were new you learned from most moments, be it how to interact with specific parts of the UI, combat, skills, talents, etc, you didn't need to be told what to do because the game wasn't too complex, at core it was an easy game.
Once you get dropped into the game you are told basic game controls to interact with things, you get taught how to interact with npcs for quests and you are on your own, which matched the concept of exploration and discovery that matched the game in it's entirety.
Modern wow (and a lot of modern games for that matter) don't let you learn on your own and that takes away the fun from discovering and improving on your own. It doesn't need to be as extreme as path of exile 1 is, where you need to go to the wiki or look up stuff on youtube or any other 3rd party sites to get basic info for things like crafting, or how to target farm certain items (last epoch does it so much better), but yeah, the handholding in modern wow is kinda annoying, and it's normal for experienced gamers that want to do stuff on their own to find it annoying.
This was a lot of fun to watch, thanks Day9! Hope to see more
If you enjoy the combat, there is an absolute ton of it once you get past those story/chatting introductions.
Fully clearing a zone is mostly combat quests, and even collection quests usually route you through enemy packs
I'm really enjoying the way you analyse how the game is pulling you all over the place through layers and layers of disconnect expansions.
Zones are already supposed to be 5 levels each (past the starter zone). So, EK and Kalimdor can be made 1-45. All previous xpac continents can be 45-60, concurrently; do them however you like. Current xpac 60-70. bam. No lvl scaling either. Holy shit wow I solved it.
Also, the pace of leveling should be equal to like, TBC.
I'm so glad you aren't a designer, what a horrific hellhole you just suggested.
The rant at 30 minutes had me in tears of laughter.
Its so sad that there's this 30min -1hour gap after exile's reach where's there's just no combat.
In the current version the game picks back up again at the ashvane foundry.. by then most new players will have quit. Blizzard is planning to make the dragon isles the new default follow up zone, which has no big city introduction questline or complicated story to introduce, so I hope that makes it a bit smoother.
If they just went exile's reach -> fly to dragon isles (instead of stormwind) it'd be so much more engaging!
That's how it will be in a couple of months.
@@Maniaman213 one of the reasons im waiting to get back into it even
Though I think ill level a character through MOP remix as well ^^ that seems like a fun way to do a character.
The orientation quests they have you do in the various camps/towns in Dragonflight are a pretty good microcosm of what he talks about with contextless information dumps. They try to get you acquainted with the functionally important NPCs like innkeepers, rep vendors and flightmasters in those locations, but are just trying to dump it all on you when you probably have no interest in interacting with them at that given moment, and they're also doing it with the modern compass marker systems that prime you into just mindlessly following them and not really processing anything, so you end more likely to just forget it all as soon as you're done with it, rendering the whole endeavor feeling rather counter-intuitive to actually learning.
I vaguely remember Jaina Proudmoor as being an important character in Warcraft 3 and I think she was a quest giver in Classic WoW, but I have no idea what's going on with her character here. I don't even remember that island with her mother being in the game when I played it.
Whereas your experience as a new player is more like jumping into a tv series at season 9 without having seen the previous seasons, for me it's like going back to the show at season 9 after skipping seasons 4 through 7 since I actually did play this game quite a bit during classic and the first two expansions (and a bit of the fourth). But at least with shows you can go back and rewatch those missed seasons. With WoW, those seasons are just gone and you can't replay them again unless they do what they did with Classic WoW but for every expansion in the game. But who has the time to play through every expansion just to "catch up"? I've poured more hours into WoW than any other game and was still not able to "finish" any of the expansions as the endgame content was designed to be next to impossible to progress through to the final raid bosses unless you made it your full time job. That's why I quit the game in the first place.
I like the fact that there is more of a story, and don't mind the "on rails" tutorial and campaign as much as you. But yeah, I agree, they need to design it more so that they get the player more invested in trying to discover this lore instead of shoving it down their throats right at the beginning. They don't have to be as cryptic with their lore as Elden Ring, but the way they structured it in classic, in which the lore and discovery was more of a reward for doing things rather than a lecture you had to endure before getting to the actual game, was a much better approach.
people made fun of the "collect 10 bear butt quests" but they really are necessary at certain points just for both slowing down and to be an option for people to fight for the sake of fighting.
In RPGs, going off story and just doing some stuff is crucial. That kind of downtime means you can feel very concretely what your character is capable off. Like sometimes you just wanna feel your build by beating up some bandits. It's very pure.
If everything is a gimmick, has a weird mechanic or is a story moment, you rarely get to "feel" what your character is like on its own.
Now, it can also just be overdone. But, I guess, even BG3 for example just has a lot of clear cut fights - with proper options for tactics - where you get to just explore or beat something up. Miniscule spoilers - EG the bulette and minotaurs in the Underdark. They're just something you can fight on your way somewhere. And sure, they're unique encounters and act uniquely, but it's still, like... Just good as you're going somewhere. No need to read between the lines of an untrustworthy NPC or make a big character decision; this big dude is beating you up, beat him up first. Feel what your class is like. Show off what you've made.
It's why Arena stuff in Oblivion is so good. Sure, there's a story, but it's clear cut stuff where you can just express what you've built up over your story.
never really thought about how much context you miss from the beginning of the kul tiras quest line if you didn't listen to the warbringers song or don't have warcraft 3 in the back of your mind
more trash gold at 1:06:55
Loved every second of this.
Love that at the end when randos were doing the waving from behind the news anchor who's reporting from the street, Sean's just reading chat lol
Where people say of movies "show; dont tell", for games feel the rule is "play; don't tell"
The big issue with the storyline is that there are basically 8 or 9 different expansion and classic stories to level through and neither will be finished before you reach 60, at which point you get jammed into the newest expansion. So as a new player, what the fuck are you supposed to do to figure out where to go, what to do, why to do it and who you even are to be called the Champion of the Alliance/Horde.
Retail added so many things I like, but removed almost everything that made the game social. You can play the game all the way to max level and never talk to another player.
You could do the same thing in Classic as well...
@@DelarissaIf you set out to do it, maybe, but the game actively wants and encourages you to interact between group quests, forming dungeons, forming parties to share quest credit etc
@@Zeldarulah totally class dependant, if your class can go solo it is actually better to just go solo
@@Zeldarulah classic is still full of quest doodads that aren't shared, and in order to play with people you need to be forming parties, which doesn't actually require you to interact with people beyond right clicking and inviting them.
You can also just talk to people in retail, the difference is not nearly as massive as you believe it to be.
Being able to play the game to max level and never having to talk with someone else is actually a selling feature for me. Sometimes I just want to sit and play after work and not feel forced to interact with other peeps and just relax
I haven't played since BfA and haven't levelled a new character since like MoP but I find it hilarious that you can literally go straight from Elwynn forest questing into BfA without any warning
Honestly even finding a guild in retail is impossible, I played it until Legion for most of the games life, then I later tried coming back in Shadowlands. It was like a wall of 'need more gear, need more knowledge of this specific dungeon with some arbitrary mechanic', got kicked, had no one to talk to, cross-server was unrecognizable, so I just went to Classic and stayed there after giving up all my toons with their gear/transmog/etc that I'd invested in. I just don't care about it any more, and the graphics overhaul didn't help - I find them really offputting, I prefer Era simplistic graphics.
Well said brother, I feel the exact same way about retail. I quit early in MoP and returned to classic in late TBC. Went to log in on my old toons to check them out and I was horrified by the new extremely ugly off putting animations and the fact that cross-server mechanic just means every server is socially dead. Just made me feel disgusted and sad. Now I play Classic HC, since that has the closest feel to the social aspect I so loved in vanilla.
Oh I'm especially looking forward to Day 9 being one third into BfA's levelling content and then being summoned to assist on the Dragon Isles, skipping an entire expansion's worth of story development in the process.
Lol, Backseatboss just sitting there by the flight master with the hearthstone game open and Sean not noticing!
The beauty of vanilla wow is that it drops you into the world and you automatically get into understanding your character/abilities/world. It's very intuitive and simple but SLOWLY drips feeds you until max level where it gets more complicated. Then you can finally start to really explore the more complicated mechanics at a much more defined pace.
Retail on the other hand.... Throws you into 9 new expansions all at once with a Frankenstein amalgamation of mechanics that are either from the newest expansions or from Cataclysm, which is OLD as fuck now. Because of this nothing actually blends well together and a lot of mechanics clash really badly together for new players. I literally tell newbies to skip the Azeroth completely and just level in Outlands or Northrend because it settles you into an era of the game that was simpler to understand and pick up.
your honesty at about 50min in was so fucking cool to listen to. so thanks for that
also, haven't played retail for a few expansions and i already have BFA at home
As a WoW player since vanilla, This is the best stuff I have seen on the internet in years !! Keep it up!
Honestly like 30 mins into the retail shitshow I just felt obligated to watch the rest to find out if Sean would maybe keep playing classic.
Sean would LOVE all the asian mmos with 0 story and just "content" where every quest is to kill 99mobs
Literally my answer to anyone who asks "What are you doing"?
Me: Questing
1:30:20 no worries, all the loot is just consolidated on to a single mob when you loot so you don't have to loot every single one. Ur not losing out on nothing.
The whole leveling experience is basically a giant tutorial. Once you hit cap, everything's available, but it all depends on what's your fancy is. Pvp/ Battlegrounds and arenas. Pve/ Mythic+ and raids, as well as open world content for transmogs and mounts. If you are interested in the story of WoW, you got the main questing. It seems it can be confusing for newer players because if you haven't been doing main quest during the leveling at the start of dragonflight it can no sense.
Thanks for the honest review, I really hope they listen to you since you know a thing or two again gaming..
1:00:00 - 1:03:00 lmaoooo I love this guy and his accents
only an hour in but I'm pretty sure he has a total of 2.64 min of actual gameplay
Ohhh what I would give to watch Sean complete a full Classic leveling experience. This retail experience makes me want it all the more!
For me, the fun really starts with dungeons, even though pre-max dungeons have trivial difficulty.
I don't mind being on a railroad occasionally, but then you better present me with the best the game has, as it is literally the time the developer has full control, and should show me the best they're able to muster. Great storytelling beats, magnificent vistas, intriguing places to visit. They have complete control of the vision. To me the worst part of the WoW railroad is that it's the most bland nonsense, and it drags on, and on. Just tired cliché after tired cliché. There's very little point or meaning in anything said, just bland filler dialogue.
It gets another level when you see Day9 missing where the harbour office is, and realizing that at that moment he kind of needed to be on rails to find it. Maybe the railroad isn't so bad, sometimes. 😁
@@heavycritic9554 Yes, it can of course be useful if done well! Although I feel like a harbor office has plenty of opportunity to pop in its design as well.
I feel like that's more an issue of the railroading now kind of i forming the designs. I feel like areas are much more intricate and busy now, which can be cool visually, but sometimes run into readability issues. But those readability issues can be "solved" by railroading, so the railroading "allows" for more complex clutter.
Amnesia was my peak Day9 for sure. Loved it.
Gotta spend 12 hours to get to 60, then another 12 hours doing quests and dungeons to get to 70, then the main endgame of doing dungeons and raids happens.
Think day9 glazes over part of the point behind the "1 cosmetic > than WoL profit", which is that if you are the company behind deciding what you put your engineers to work on, that data makes things interesting to say the least.
It's interesting to see the full comparison to the opening of vanilla vs retail, its makes the difference in mindset from the older gameplay based focus vs the newer story focus (at the expense of gameplay and a forced 'press x' tutorial) change really apparent.
The more he talks about it, the more i think Sean would really hate FF14 if he tried it (contrary to alot or people loving it after coming out of wow) since almost the entire MSQ in FF14 is talking to people in sequence with direction - its a good story, but its incredibly guided.
At the same time, at least it doesn't take control away constantly like wow seems to.
"I am sitting in real life, in front of my character that is sitting in game life!" hahahaha
ironically even though they tried to make a new tutorial to do a new player experience, classic/vanilla wow has the best tutorial ive ever seen in a game. you just get placed in front of a guy, just far enough that you have to learn to walk forward to talk to him. he gives some short context and something to find and kill..with 1 ability. you know how to move, how to click, and 1 is your ability. go wild. it takes all of like 10 seconds before you're set loose and you learn everything by being set free to do it.
What you need to realize is that WoW's retail world is just pretty much open world lobby you afk in in between your instanced content (M+, raids, arena etc.). The world does not matter, it might as well be just a menu screen.
None of that is at all true. A massive amount of the player base doesn't really focus on the raiding, M+ or PvP aspects of the game as there's just so much to do within the open world. Sure getting geared is fun, but none of it actually matters if your gear is essentially stripped away from you every 4-5 months. Most people would rather go around exploring, collecting and just enjoying things at their own pace rather than just endlessly grinding out dungeons for no real reason other than to see a number on get bigger
@orphen923 ok, but there's not much to ACTUALLY do in the open world other than quests/world quests. And professions. Outside of that, there's nothing to do but look at stuff.
@@taylon5200 there's more to do in the open world than there is in every other part of the game... Look, I'm all for players choosing what they want to do, but stop the bullshit man. M+, raiding and PvP is just the same content on repeat every single day/week. It's not even fun too, you're just running through the same dungeon, the same way you did previously hoping to get a bigger number on what previously was an arbitrary number not even associated with the damn game. (I.O and trying to parse in raids). No matter how you look at it, there's more content in the open world than their is anywhere else. From reputations, to collecting, to questing, to exploring to whatever you want to do really. If anything it's the top tiers that get nothing as they're stuck with 1 raid or 8 dungeons fo cycle through for months at a time before they repeat the same process
@@orphen923 Well I guess it all depends on your perspective. I enjoy the challenge of raids and M+, honing my skill (and hoping none of my guildies f up). Suggesting to explore the world/grind reps/collect pointless stuff in WoW makes as much sense to me as somebody suggesting to go outside and collect random rocks and pieces of grass in the field.
But thats what makes WoW outlast every other MMO pretty much - the fact that it caters to many people. I would still think that the world was much more interesting in classic/tbc tho. When the world itself was challenging to traverse, rather than the test of patience it is today.
@@rukinohi But do you see how your focus is on how much the game challenges you, which is why you think the retail open world has nothing in it? The only reason you think classic's open world is better is because it's more challenging.
Understanding your own bias here will go a long way to not making things up and declaring they're true.
The only way to get into retail wow is to have done so back in wrath of the lich king through mists of pandaria. If you started earlier you were disenranchised by the changes to retail after wrath and during wrath and you quit, and if you started any later the game is impossible to learn and also not fun during entire process.
And the developers will never fix this, it's an end game amusement park through and through.
"it's Crystal Maiden, for sure heh." not just similarity, literally. Crystal Maiden evolved from Jaina in Warcraft3 mods.
You know what is crazy I played wow like 6 years ago for the first time and got stuck in one of it's expansions where you play farmville. It was fun for about a minute then wanted out and was stuck in the middle of a frozen tundra mountain. Eventually I got to a different area where it is a lush swampy rain forest filled with dinosaurs and constant explosions. I eventually tried googling my way out, found out the expansion was called War Lords of Draenor and could only find people complaining about it or explaining something about farmville mechanics. My lvl 68 priest can no longer zug zug and is stuck with goblins in the past playing farmville never to be touched again.
idk if you will read it day9, but the Jaina stary that you didn't understand actually isn't from wow, its from extra campaign in warcraft 3 about Rexar. And I strongly belive thatyou have played it 20 years and just forgot it. :)
Oooh the one where we kill the jaina father who looks like arthas with a mustache? xD
@@SmolShippie yap, and Jaina helps. That's why everyone in Boralus calls her murderer.
@@loinex_ It has been 20 years already geez they sure know how to hold a grudge!
This is seriously unhinged. The new player tutorial sends you into the 6th expansion's intro by default?!
One thing that's WILD to me is that all modern MMOs seem to have collectively decided that cutscene based, NPC driven expansions and stories are the way to go. Credit where credit is due to Star Wars: The Old Republic, at least the game is about your character. (I never played the expansions though, so who knows what happened there.)
I don't understand the focus on narrative storytelling and NPC characters when what MMOs seem to do best is offer self-guided, emergent storytelling. Spectacle has value, but my all Shaman run of Scarlet Monastery with a bunch of random other players sticks in my head way more than any of WoW's quest lines. There seems to be a modern emphasis on TELLING the audience what is important rather than letting them determine what is important, which improves accessibility at the cost of genuine connection.
Because WoW did it and were massively successful?
It *can* work. FFXIV is an example where the story works somewhat, since in spite of its density and railroading there's people to invest in, and such. Outside MMO's, some games are just outright cutscenes. Some gameplay heavy games still have lengthy intro sequences and work. Half Life's intro still holds up, because you get thrown into this weird science lab where people are conversational about some mysterious experiment you don't know much about. It being underground adds to the question of what's going on.
The problem lies in execution, is the thing. I'm actually baffled by the writing here. Jaina's big moment (while having some basic mistakes in dialogue writing; "so you admit that" is very close to "as you know") could work as a big character point, but blunt big moments like that feel crazy heavy-handed if you have no context for the character.
Day9 knows some of the names from Hearthstone, but that's aboit it in general. It feels like a woman just barges into your living room, yelling that she killed her father; it's not compelling to the unacquainted as much as it's intrusive as to what you're trying to do. Ma'am, please, I'm trying to kill boars. Leave me alone.
It reminds me of DMPCs in DnD.
Super lame
No Man's Sky seems to have different opinion than you.
@@SephonDK I don't doubt that it can be successful. The fact that all these more modern MMOs are doing it is clearly an indicator of the popularity of it. I "completed" the core story of FFXIV (everything pre-expansion), and while the story was decent, it didn't really hook me outside of a few cool moments. Even then, my character is little more than a passive observer of the story.
You're right; narrative spectacle can work. My issue is that all the systems that make an MMO an MMO (namely, the concept of a large, open world RPG with lots of other players) seem to have an innate tension with the delivered narrative driven, cutscene focused orientation. Harkening back to FFXIV, that game isn't REALLY an MMO in the classic sense. It's a dungeon crawler that has this long story to get through so you can do more dungeon crawling. I think we might just need a new word for it, because games like Everquest, vanilla WoW, FFXI, etc. are fundamentally different experiences in almost the same way that a game like Kingdom Hearts is a fundamentally different experience.
can't wait for asmon reacting on your little retail vs classic rant.
This was definitely an adventure.
Day9, genuinely, you never fail to make me laugh. You're so animated, naturally funny, your rants, thoughtful analysis, sarcasm, genuinely so entertaining to watch - perfect second monitor vids while chilling in an MMO :D
Been getting back into ff14 for Dawntrail but currently updating my WoW game to jump on that because of these vids :D
41:06 thats the place where i wiped for two years. Miss you BFA
Yeah I hope some senior dev is watching this. This is amazing feedback.
I think every expansion needs a new player onboarding mission that's part of that expansion's story
I get that we can go level wherever we want with our alts, that's fine but the fact that new players are immediately thrown into BFA with no context is like he says, "off the rails!" Yes, he could have just stayed in Stormwind but he and new players don't know that. Players just follow the quests wherever it takes them and are constantly asking, "what just happened?". It's really crazy.
It doesn't even need to be that complex. Ditch Exile's Reach, dump players in the original starting areas, eventually have a quest that introduces them to expansion content with some backstory for each, let players choose if they want to continue leveling in classic zones or play through an expansion, easy.
I know you're not really selling this game but its really making me want to play again...
And yet the proportion of new and casual players is so much bigger in retail. Classic is unfortunately too slow for new audiences in these times, but it would be nice to have a nice middle ground - don't change endgame, but create a good, friendly and cohesive leveling experience
Im watching this series with no prior WOW experience.
With classic i was like: "Hmmm... every quest seems to be the same, it looks pretty slow and boring" but i also got a sense of wanting to play it myself anyway because i wanted to explore. I saw places Day9 didnt decide to go to and i got curious. I saw him dying and i was thinking about ways to do it better and not die.
With retail i got no such feeling. I actually didnt finish the first video. I dont really know why i started watching the second one but im halfway through and i dont think ill watch it to the end. I hate everything this game is so far.
So yeah, from my very limited experience watching this i would say that classic clearly has problems in a modern gaming world. But it looks like a good game anyways. Retails looks like shit.
This es the exact reason why they are changing the intro and tutorial directly to the dragon isles, where you level up until who knows what level and then go to the latest expansion, you won't be changing 200 places around anymore with random quests, they will try to make it better, idk when, but they are changing this intro already with The War Within. Hopefully no more clusterf*** missions.
What are you on about? Itll be the exact same issue. DF has a disjointed main quest that isn't solved in the main zones, and you won't experience the main story.
The comedic timing of the game at 35:00 can not be overstated.
9:46 ..... Ain't no they squeezed brotha in here now.
oh you dont dismount in the water anymore? that looks funny :D
backseatboss is like one of my floaters
48:00 that Tiger Woods analogy was so hilarious and spot on LOL
its actually crazy that he is like 5-6 hours in and is yet to get out of the tutorial
you would hate ff14 you had more gameplay in this video than the entire 300 hour campaign in that game
The hell are you smoking?
@@UsernameXOXO Think he is mostly true FF14 is just teleport here click items teleport there kill 1 enemy and shit load of story dumping only thing better is you are forced to follow the story in a logical order.
Yeah, but at least the stories in FF14 are coherent and well written. What combat you have in 14 is even more bland than vanilla WoW until lvl 70 or so, reading dialogue is more interesting.
@@apharys8921 It's paragraph after paragraph after paragraph of olde English blathering about a storyline that, at least in ARR, is pretty bland. I fell asleep multiple times in my seat trying to play that game. It's not everyone's cup of tea.
@@nulian It's true. It's just reading, teleporting, reading, running to a random location in the middle of nowhere, kill something, read some more, teleport again. And the world just isn't built the same way as WoW's is. Each area in WoW is seamlessly connected (for the most part) and quest destinations actually feel fleshed out and aren't just some sparkly circle next to a random tree in a field somewhere.
I really hope someone from Blizzard watches this, repeatedly.
Nah, the art team has been carrying.
nah
Why do zoomers have to constantly add random meaningless words to sentences? nah, bruh, literally, etc...
Just fucking say a normal sentence.
Karl Pilkignton.. is that you?
Playing the game since beta. Haven't started a new toon since Warlords. Still just playing my original toons (when I bother to log in), and I had no idea all this hand-holding happened with new accounts. This just seems absolutely insane.
Like.. I can probably drop my 80yr old mom on retail at this point.
Amazing. I can't imagine a retail player grinding Rhok'Delar or my Pally Mount the old school way.
Also, I would start with Legion.
Strangeely this guided style is more confusing than exploring it for yourself.
It could be quite overwhelming to have 30 spells flung into your action bar.
Having to pay for spells (which makes you read them) is just way easier to grasp.
@@SunnyThief I absolutely agree- along with using them often as you learn them.
I don’t understand how Blizzard doesn’t grasp this new player concept, yet, they wonder why their game is not gaining new players. The new player experience should be their NUMBER 1 FOCUS!
This is some of the best reaction content I've seen in a while
You shouldn't start any adventure by talking to a gnome.
32:13 you must have found the marble in the oatmeal then.
Would love to see Day9 try Guild Wars 2, though I don't know if he wants to try any more MMOs
After playing classic fora while I’ve learnt that I hate Retail graphics
Retail wow is a Visual Novel.
so they made the decision when they redid the tutorial that they felt the best new player experience would be to throw them into the more narrative and voice acted expansion which would get you ready for shadowlands... so depending on your mentality you might not want to do the exploration and have the more scripted experience.
It seems alot of commenters on the stream were confused, and i cant see it mentioned below, but the first time a player joins wow nowadays they're forced to run BFA.
You don't get a choice until your second character.
They did this so that every new player gets the same starting experience so that they can pull everyone up to current content without rising a new player picking an expansion that's not indicative of the current expansion, or comes in at an odd time compared to current expansions. Imagine getting ported at 60, from a random Wrath zone directly to current, you'd be so confused to suddenly be railroaded for x hours.
It seems you might be going off of outdated information. You are no longer required to do BFA for your first character. You can talk to chromie at any time to change expansions, this was changed a while back.