Why Vigilantes Can't Deliver Meaningful Justice
Вставка
- Опубліковано 28 січ 2021
- Help me make more videos!
Support this channel: / likestoriesofold
Leave a One-Time Donation: www.paypal.me/TomvanderLinden
Try Acorn TV free for 30 days by going to acorn.tv/ and use promo code likestoriesofold.
Follow me:
Sign up for my weekly newsletter: www.getrevue.co/profile/likes...
Facebook: / likestoriesofold
Instagram: / tom.vd.linden
Twitter: / tom_lsoo
About this video:
Video essay exploring vigilantes, retribution and the pursuit of meaningful justice.
Sources:
Max Weber - Politics as a Vocation: amzn.to/3puTba5
Further Reading:
Like Stories of Old - The Complete Reading List: kit.co/likestoriesofold/readi...
10 Books that changed my life: kit.co/likestoriesofold/10-bo...
Media included:
Batman Begins; Batman v. Superman; Gladiator; I Saw the Devil; John Wick; John Wick: Chapter 3; Kill Bill; Law Abiding Citizens; Marvel’s Daredevil; Marvel’s The Punisher; Memento; Oldboy; Shooter; Spider-Man 1, 2 & 3; Taken 2; The Dark Knight; The Dark Knight Rises; The Punisher; The Revenant; The Secret in their Eyes; Vikings; Walking Tall; Watchmen; Watchmen (HBO)
Business inquiries: lsoo@standard.tv
Music:
Erick Serna - Atmosphere (instrumental)
Ryan Taubert - Son of a Gun
Ryan Taubert - White Knight
Jacob Montague - In the Rising Tide
Ryan Taubert - Inclination
Ryan Taubert - I’m not a Tyrant
Davis Harwell - Requiem
Blade Ewing - As Bright as your Memories
Music licensed from Musicbed. Elevate your videos with record-label quality music here: share.mscbd.fm/likestoriesofold - Розваги
_“Justice without mercy is cruelty. Mercy without justice is the mother of all dissolution.”_
- Thomas Aquinas
Some people want cruelty.
The insolence and impudence with which the guilty ones have shown and committed their crimes is what drives the cruel vengeance out.
@@Only_God_Is_Allah_SWT
Even if you punish someone exactly with the same pain/evil that he gave, can you be sure that living beings have free will ? Can you guarantee that, if you were at his place (born with the same genes, having same backstory, all these things that you actually never choosed), you would have acted differently ?
Or following Origen, justice is subsumed by mercy. Justice must fundamentally be restorative, corrective, and educative if it is to be considered justice.
That’s a modern idea of justices
do you even know who was this Aquinas? ,,don't display such weak intellect bruh
"Absolutely! Rage, vengeance, anger, loss are tremendous motivators to clear the mind. So I’m good to go." Thor, God of Thunder
“What more could I lose”
-Seductive Lord of Hammers
Thunder God destroys half of universe - 2019 Circa Colorized
@@popopop984 I love it, as much of a joke he was in Endgame, the reality and weight of such a loss he experienced often leads to depression and addiction. Not proactive revenge and actions, it's always clouded.
@@callmev3531 "Me, personally, I could lose a lot."
-Rocket, a talking raccoon.
@@BetaBreaking Addiction, if you are weak. The depression on the other hand is always there, like the anger but anger can be channeled if controlled.
"we see how vigilantism can go too far, like Snyder's interpretation of Rorschach"
yes, as opposed to the lawfully good, morally upright boyscout Rorschach from the comic
Snyder's version made him even more of a good guy in comparison. Still very radical, but not as much.
@@lunavioleta001 it's because in Snyder's version, specifically the child killer scene, we experience the scene of the crime through Rorshach's eyes and we feel the same feeling of shock and anger as they build up slowly inside. While the comics don't give you the same feeling of connection.
@@heshamhany8470 We do exactly the same in the comic, and, unlike in the film, there is a whole chapter of build-up for that scene, we get to know much better Rorschach, the end of the fucker who killed the little girl is much more ironically appropriate, and the final monologue is one of my favorite pieces of Alan Moore´s Writing... So I don´t really understand your point...
@@lunavioleta001 Yep. In fact Rorscach's favorite newspaper in the comics actively defends the KKK. Rorschach is a shitty human being.
@@machacasaurius which version of rorschach do u like more? snyderr or alaan moore?
I think something everyone misses about john wick is that people thought it was just revenge but perhaps john wished to achieve something more meaningful a good deathlike a samurai or a viking berseker and the dog was the only thing holding him to life without his wife and once gone the suicidal vanity of the best killer kicked in
I came to point out something similar. Specifically how the sequels actually point out just how meaningless what he's doing is. He's no longer out for revenge, he's just killing now because he doesn't know how to stop.
Which is why to me John Wick is A LOT like Death Wish. There was a strong reason for the violence in the first movie. After that it was just an action movie
@@SkittlesInYourHand That sasuke uchiha life.
Yeah, like, ' heres my deathwish AND my excuse to finally cleanse the underbelly of as many bad people as i can while going out seeking my own form of justice'
Kourtney Hanley your comment was so good I started eating popcorn while reading it. 🍿 You should get into movie reviews/commentary or something. 👀
An even older saying is " if you set out for revenge, first dig two graves."
Lateral violence it goes around ♾
Wax on, wax off.
Often the revenger welcomes death as closure to their suffering.
@@OdysseyHome-Gaming They have to die , to reset the balance of Justice,.
Two graves are better than one. Especially, when that one grave is that of the wronged one.
I can't remember where I heard it, but someone talked about how at the root of pain and the desire for vengeance is a need for understanding. In punishing those we hate, we expect them to finally understand what they have done to us.
Possibly, other may want the need to punish as a way to get those they hate to understand the pain they inflict. But sometimes some people just need a dirt nap, not much need for understanding just them not living is good enough.
I disagree. While yes there is a need for understanding, it is wrong that it is the need for the target to understand. It is the vigilante that needs to understand the root of their pain, to grieve, accept, and move beyond it. The vigilante is broken because they refuse to do this and instead project that pain onto their target, wrongly believing that by making someone else "understand" their pain, it will resolve it for themselves. This is also why vigilantes are almost exclusively men and very often are men who have lost their female partner, because it is a part of societal expectations of gender roles that men do not self-examine and deal with their own emotions but rather expect others to do that emotional labour for them (usually their female partner). By taking away the female partner the narrative sets up the man to become broken as he has no one to work through his emotions for him, and he is incapable of doing it himself.
"Nearly all can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."
- Abraham Lincoln
Well, Lincoln failed that test then. Using his power to imprison people without trial for disagreeing with him, having millions die for wanting to be a seperate country, ETC.
Great quote. Saving that later
Lincoln was wrong here. Most people nowadays cannot stand adversity.
Quite ironic coming from Lincoln of all people
@@aguilarraliuga1777 In what way?
"Seriously now, Raiden, isn't this all a bit much?
Any decent lunatic would've quit after Mexico.
I heard you chopped the lab director in half.
Old habits die hard, eh, Jack?
But now here you are, the child soldier, fighting for the children.
Please. What do you really expect to accomplish here?
Play savior to a bunch of brains... and what? Earn a medal?
Think about it, Jack.
(...)
Ah, but you're a man on a mission, aren't you...
Gonna fix everything, just you and your little sword there.
Solve everything with violence, is that it?"
- Jetstream Sam, Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance
"Not so black and white now, is it?
Is your cause just, or is that "just" what you tell yourself?"
- Jetstream Sam, Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance
God I love Sam
The Brazilian Cool Wind
Very out of place for a game who's premise and main mechanic is being able to cut people in any kind of spesific way you want but nonetheless a very accurate quote.
What I love about Rising is that Raiden doesn't give in to the gaslighting. He knows that he's doing what absolutely needs to be done, and he's the only one who can and will do it. He has to save those kids and like Armstrong said, "if it costs a few lives, so be it." Not all of his enemies were fighting for World Marshall because they wanted Outer Heaven 2.0 like Sundowner, but that didn't change that they were still enabling one of the worst human trafficking incidents ever. You missed a piece, too. "No matter how many Mexican kids we cut, or Africans we bury, no one gives a shit. Not the media. Not the politicians. Certainly not the average joe. Too busy fretting over money, or sex, religion, fame." Raiden isn't doing it because he thinks it'll eliminate crime or bring light to World Marshall's actions, but because W.M. is doing those things at all and their victims would never see a chance at life without his intervention.
@@mercury2157 I didn't "miss" it, I left it out on purpose. That's what the (...) is for.
But yeah, I agree.
"An eye for an eye" - there is another meaning behind this idea. Retaliation for an act of violence may be out of anyone's hands because society entrusts making things right upon the state. It was interesting to learn however that "An eye fo an eye" can be found in ancient legal systems (even the Bible), where it also means that an equal amount of punishment shall be carried out on a criminal in the same way as he committed one (and not more). So originally it prevents individuals to create mayhem, and become evil while they exact revenge.
"Society entrusts making things right upon the state"
Not necessarily. If you don't make a legal complaint, the state can't act on your behalf. There was a case of a nun
who refused to prosecute her rapists. As someone else says here, " The only meaningful justice is forgiveness."
@@smkh2890 Everyone takes the old " eye for an eye" statement in the Bible so far out of context...if you want to bring scripture into it, then vengence belongs to God...ijs
@@timhenley3602 Out of context? Modern Christianity has manipulated and mistranslated the bible so far beyond the original that its laughable. Look up the origins of Abrahamic religions. El or the Elohim is a Canaanite pantheon that Yahweh aka Jehova was apart of until Israelites had the genius idea of monotheism to prevent the nation from splitting up, it split up regardless.
@@josuem7398 You're preaching to the choir, dude. Go tell someone who doesn't already know.
An eye for eye should still include interest since they initiated the suffering with mens reas to begin with.
I watch UA-cam for over ten years now and have discovered countless amazing channels. But from all these talented video makers, for me, you stand out as the best of them all. I decided that you will be the first one I support on Patreon.
Every video of yours is a masterpiece and many of them have permanently changed how I see the world.
You are a force for good and a true artist. Thank you for all the love and dedication you put into your work.
Absolutely, these videos have changed my perspective and even helped me through trauma and my own limited views.
I couldn’t have said it better.
"I think there's too much focus on sins and not enough on virtue" "I think forgiveness has been highly underrated" - Brenden Gleesom's character in Calvary
yo cant clean dem pots n pans wd an ol wet rag - gotta use HOT wada!
@@phigupot8976 seems familiar, what's it from? :)
@@domhuckle damn, didn kno ae had free rent n yo mind
@@phigupot8976 sorry, thought you were engaging and not just trolling. Easy mistake to make when you post in wingdings
Virtue doesn’t bring the dead back to life, punishment for sins is Cathartic to the victim and a reminder to perpetrators. Forgiveness is only preached by men who have done sins that they wish he forgotten.
"You can't heal under a mask. Wounds need air."
Then try going into a war without any armor in any ancient battle. The need for wounds to need air becomes pointless at that point. :/
@@sigmacademy that’s why you don’t send wounded soldiers into battle, and why you take wounded soldiers out of battle.
Yeah, but it’s hard to heal if everybody recognizes you and kills your family and burns down your house and stuff
@@stanstanstan2597 that’s why you have allies, to protect you when you are weak
@@AristonSparta til they use smear campaigns to distance your allies from you
A quote that always comes to mind for me is Dutch van der Linde from Red Dead Redemption 2, where at the very beginning of the game he tells Kieran that they "shoot fellers as need shooting, save fellers as need saving, and feed em as need feeding. We are going to find out what you need".
It's a shame he fell off his moral horse. RIP Arthur 😭
That maybe because oh brain damage when he hit his head fleeing the set up in Saint Denis. Not that it makes it okay but considering he was consistent up till than makes sense to me.
@@dossiebigham9113 Dutch was a monster before he hit his head, don't forget he murdered Heidi McCourt in cold blood in Blackwater. Dutch was a hypocrite who believed revenge was to be avoided, unless it was his enemies to be dealt with.
@@the_corvid97 okay yes but going off what as presented to us.
That maybe a possibility given blackwater is kept ambiguous we don't see all of the details.
Does that excuse dutch for what happened or what he does later no no it doesn't.
@@dossiebigham9113 I just responded as I did as I see a lot of people blaming the trolley incident for Dutch's behavior when he was already in a decline before then.
@@the_corvid97 well ok though I do think maybe that injury made him decline faster is all I'm saying. I mean people have gotten brain injuries and had personally shifts and lose of impulse control.
I'm just saying it might be a factor not the main one but a factor.
I just realized something. During descriptions of all those vigilantes, not *once* do we actually see them saving people as we would expect from traditional superheroes.
This is why the end of The Batman worked so well for me, his character arc throws into stark relief how much of his hero persona had only been violence without helping anyone if the situation didn't need someone stomped on.
I always think that people are missing the point when they say that Batman is bad for not killing, because people like the Joker will just commit crimes again. Firstly, ignoring that people don’t escape prisons every week in real life. But also, crime isn’t going to go away just because you kill people. They’ll just be replaced by someone else. You need to tackle the underlying systems that lead to crime, name inopportunity and cyclical violence, as well as give opportunities for former criminals to better themselves.
I actually like Batman from the animated show more for this reason. There are scenes that show he, as Bruce Wayne, invests a lot of money into communities, but he’s still around to punch the comic book level villains (like Joker) who aren’t ever gonna change.
Let’s be real, it’s the state that has the power to off Joker. Robot Chicken covered that
Sure but he could still kill Joker. Because, as you said, people like him don’t change. Also, the Joker is a big exception from most criminals. A lot of his rouges gallery are. Killer Croc is too beastly and monstrous to be kept alive imo.
most violent crimes are done by repeat offenders
@@chaindrivesumner9470 You arrest someone for committing a violent crime, which they were likely driven to do as a result external factors such as poverty or retaliatory crime in their area. They get arrested and or go to jail. Now this person can't get a job in most places, adding onto the already existing issues they faced. So what do you expect them to do?
It's a problem with the US criminal justice system in general, and not just for people who committed violent crimes. There is no attempt at rehabilitation. You get arrested for something that shouldn't even be criminalized, such as addiction or possession of drugs, including marijuana, mental health issues, or homelessness. You're exposed to more intense crimes in prison, and have to be involved in those things to get by. Then you don't have any options when you get out, so you turn to crime, which you just got a crash course on in prison. Not to mention that our criminal justice system disproportionately targets already historically marginalized communities both in terms of arrests and harsher sentences, despite the things they're charged for (like marijuana possession) are pretty equal across different groups of people.
The solution is not to kill people, especially when inequality and other systems in place will just put someone else in their place. It's about tackling the root causes of crime. You invest in needy communities and give them opportunities to better their lives. And you actually work to rehabilitate criminals, which is something that certain other countries do to great success.
@@thedapperdolphin1590 all I'm hearing is excuses and an enabler going full potato.
Just remember that society creates it all: the victim, the perpretator, the justice (or injustice) system, the vigilantis, etc.. So, if we want justice, a better one, we should look and fight for a better society....
And we indeed, live in a society.
All the more reason for us to unite against the injustice of Marxist hate and expunge it from our midst.
That's about as useful a supposition as saying "the universe creates it all". We don't control society. We don't choose it. It is a result of our personal choices.
Society is a spook
Which is ultimately for naught, because the irony of humans needing society to thrive as a whole...is that society itself is often at odds with human nature. The reason why the concept of human utopia is, in truth, a fallacy...is because it requires a universal suppression of human nature. And even if 99% of humanity is agrees to it (which is wholly impossible to begin with), the 1% that can't/won't...are more than enough to bring it all down.
Utopia/peace is only achievable on the personal level. Its always been that way, and it always will be.
Always a good day when you upload
Thank you. You don't know how much I needed your comment
"Only a Sith deals in absolutes" - Obi Wan Kenobi
"Only a jedi works ways of hypocracy" -Unknown
In Anakin voice: ''From my point of view the jedi are evil''
Isn't "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" an absolute?
@@CristianMartinez-hg6xu Then you are lost!
@@StarSage66 yes which makes the quote even better
The morale of vengeance stories is, be careful who you step on. Sometimes there is a monster barely contained beneath the surface. It is an anomaly and that's why it's appealing. Most people don't have the motivation and/or the ability to do such things. It's a call back to our more primal desires.
Are you saying that people who get revenge are the real viallains of the story instead of the people who actually did them wrong first??
I have several other objections and disagreements to your statements but this one is the most important to me.
@@absolutenothing7094 I would say there is no Villains and Good Guys in the John Wick saga. He was a successful assassin till his attempted retirement. It's another "Anti-Hero" story which have grown in popularity in recent decades. As an artistic expression, it is up for individual interpretation. I suppose if you imagine yourself as Wick when watching this then there is a desire to justify his actions. To me there is no Protagonist or Antagonist, just Action and Reaction. I am curious what your perspectives are though? What is the difference between Vengeance, Revenge? Avenging and Revenging?
@@bllaze885 i'm sorry. I didn't watch the video and scrolled down in the comments.
I just wanted your broad opinion on the topic.
To me it depends on the scale of suffering that the first offender caused compared to the scale of suffering that the avenger caused.
If the payback greatly outweighs the wrongdoing then to me it's not justifiable.
Bingo
Correction they don't have the straight, pretty much we are weak as individuals, that's why we write fantasies where we are god like strong
not gonna lie the lack of Death Note references in this is criminal.
Haha
Your comment makes me smile.
It's the perfect video too..
Well not everyone is in the culture. Can't force it.
@Aditya Chavarkar No, (I don't know "Cool Hard Logic", and "Flat Earth Society" is anything but one)..
Seeing as prior to NASA modelling, where high altitude photography is photoshopped to death (to edit remove/add clouds) and then wrapped around a 3D sphere (ergo no two NASA blue balls are the same), as per Robert Simmon's job as NASAs "Blue Marble" creator...
I prefer to accept/work off pre-NASA history, that is, actual history, and look at the navigations of ancient civilisations (e.g. Egypt's visit to the Pacific Islands/Grand Canyon) and the use of the unmoving North Star (Polaris, which has been falsely represented as a moving object time and again by "authorial sources") as a fixed point of north-to-east-west orientation, Constellations for the same (and which also don't change position /disappear what with globular tilt, rotation, orbit AND solar movement *need I say more?*), and ancient navigational devices, such as the Astrolabe, which are blatant in their depictions of earth and heaven.
I take it for personal amusement that all ancient civilisations are considered dumb, and yet no modern culture has built such structures with such basic materials as they did (much less pointed to alleged star systems), and in all the ancient world cosmologies and religious depiction*, only NASA feeds a globe (*Gnostic Hermeticism asserts globe theories due to Helios (Sun/revolve around the sun) worship, from which myths the *theoretical* (physics, as a term)) wonder is based that drives the Scientism of the globe. It was never proved, just hypothesis into existence. That is to say, I take their words as merely describing their perception of the cosmic, rather than hard evidence to the validity of its existence in the form they ascribe it. (I'm almost guaranteed to be trolled just for saying that, by internet neck beards and alleged academics alike, we me being called every term of ignorance UNDER the sun for stating it).
When challenging globe proponents early on, as a former globe-thinker myself (all FEs are products of a pro-Globe "education system" that doesn't teach critical thought as much as what to think rather than how, which is a personal stab on the "gov't education failed you" jab).... I realised that most of the ones I talked to assumed, with personalised vitriol, that earth is a globe not because they had empirical evidence that could hold up in court (and a court did in fact, to my amazement, legally debunk the existence of a globe upon the evidence, if you wanna look that up), but that earth was a globe *because* they look up and see *other* supposed globes elsewhere. That's like living on a pool table with cue balls somehow suspended and making a rash assertion without fully encompassing your vision of the surface you're on first.
The difference, only, between globe thought and geocentric thought, against all skepticism to this reason why, is that if NASA has it then there is no divine/holy Supreme being of *any* kind. We're evolved or engineered by aliens, and therefore against all human compassion, the fact is survival of the fittest, and every cold blooded ideal short of Nihilism around the sun is morally acceptable because if God is dead, then baseless is every moral assertion recorded from the mouth of any alleged deity from any religion found here (man cannot create anything for himself, much less self-restraint, being a worthless animal).
If geocentrism is the truth, and based on observed and physically tested fact (as most hardcore Geocentrists operate by), as all ancient cultures knew it and designed whole cultures around, right up until the years prior to NASA's inception (a Hollywood intros showed a globe even before NASA's founding!), then not only is a controlled and contained (created) environment the truth of our human existence, and we know nothing truly of the lights above us outside of the assertions of religious scripture (Bible, specifically, but there are some others that trend to Helion paganism), but then also we are as amazingly designed as we are off the bat without self-annihilation over millions of horrific years of aimless existence trying to get out of the trees without cause self-imposed extinction in the process, and the "alien" phenomenon, if there are no habitable worlds because there is no vacuum of space, is not an "extra-terra (earth) strial event", but a spiritual or hyper-dimensional earthly phenomenon of diabolical, demonic proportions (if accounting for victims of "Fourth Kind" encounters).
Here's some books on the study of Zetetic/Flat Earth Cosmology. The drive is secure and virus free.
drive.google.com/drive/folders/1f4g7WuDy-D_UTha8yjjAHDPyxp4Hh0fK?usp=sharing
Excellent video. Nolan’s portrayal of Batman is one of my favorites.
“Then you’re gonna love me. “
Batman Begins is the quintessential batman to me. The rest of the trilogy misses the mark somewhat with its protagonist. Obviously the Dark Knight is the best *movie* in the trilogy, but that's mostly because of the Joker. Batman Begins gives us a true Batman.
@Garry Snail I dont read comics much.
@Garry Snail It's not my taste. I prefer real books.
@Garry Snail Because i know shit about Batman
@Garry Snail you dont need to ever see a single comic to understand Batman as a character. It's ingrained in our culture. He's an archetype.
"When we talk about justice, we often talk about retributive justice" this assumes that the watcher has a singular view of justice. Spider-man is motivated by the death of his uncle, but he doesn't "I Saw the Devil" Uncle Ben's killer; he seeks to stop others from others who might take similar measures so that innocent parties don't have to suffer the tragedies they have faced. This entire video seems to focus on "retributive justice" (your words). Commissioner Gordon works outside of the law to employ the Batman, but his work is not comparable to the Batman. He works outside the law; but his ultimate goal is the safety of his city and ensure safety for all. Vigilantes come in all shapes, and to focus on the "anti-hero" trope takes away from the power of such individuals. Superman is a vigilante, by defintion. Spider-Man, Captain America etc also fall under that definition.
I should have proof-read this comment before posting, oops. Editing is for super-villains.
I agree that vigilantes in media can be way more complex, but the video still makes very valid points and is very educational
All superheroes fall into the same idea that one person's idea of justice could right the world's wrongs. Superman and Captain America both fight crime. They aren't anti-heroes, but they still use their own judgement to decide what is and isn't just. In essence, they are the same as Nolan's batman. They seek to be arbiter's of a type of justice that's beyond just one person, but the problem with that is, they still are just one person. Anyone who wants to use their own judgement to decide what is right or wrong isn't really going to find justice.
Your goal can be safety for your city and peace on earth and every good thing, but the real message of the video is that crime fighting will never lead to justice. Commissioner Gordon and spider-man both want to prevent innocent people from having to face tragedy, but the stories we see about them are always about either stopping supervillains or beating up muggers. And that isn't what will ultimately save a city. The idea that fighting bad guys will make the world better is and will always be a fantasy.
Or stopping people from committing suicide, or helping cure people of disease, or indulging the wishes of dying children. Also, you realize both Batman and Superman have checks and balances prepared for themselves more often than not, right?
@@laststrike4411 I'd say Superman is less a vigilante and more of a good Samaritan/first responder, only he's not a sworn public servant. Batman (most of the time) hunts down criminals and instill fear in the city of a man dressed as a 6' bat who beats the crap out of pimps, drug dealers, gun runners and anyone he pleases. Why, because his parents got shot in front of him. Superman, tries to help people out and protect the world from beings often more powerful than himself simply because he thinks it's the right thing to do given his abilities. He's not looking for revenge, sometimes not even justice and he actually testifies in court from time to time because Kal El is his actual legal name (up until pre new-52 where he renounced his American citizenship because reasons).
"Violence is never the answer. It's a question, and the answer yes"
~Sun Tzu, probably
I Know is a joke, but Sun Tzu actually believed in violence being the answer when everything else failed, war is expensive and overall dumb like really dumb, it literally there no war with a valid reason to happen even when people try to romanize it with "it was for freedom" or another BS.
@@PEDROGARCIA-qj3gr damn Sun Tzu a badass
@@PEDROGARCIA-qj3gr Like we even need a 'valid' reason.
Can't tell which phrase are you translating from all 13 chapters of Sun Tzu's Art of War. But at least 10 chapters of the book teach us how to avoid war and violence.
That's why Sun Tzu's Art of War are highly accepted in the business field and espionage because it never teach how to overpowered your enemy (if you can simply overpower your enemy, that's nothing more to learn at the first place), instead how to outsmarted your enemy.
@@JeusAlprime108 Dude.....that's a joke.
One of the main problems with vigilantes is that they swing at the leaves and ignore the roots. They don't address the why of criminality, they just cut down the criminals. This is ultimately never a cure but a "treatment", if you could even say thar much for it.
So you're saying they're tunnel visioned to the point of missing the big picture correct? I can see that being an issue.
Another issue is that they can only do so much. Many vigilantes in fiction do not have the means to fight societal systems like governments so they are limited to fighting injustices on a small scale.
I've read Watchmen not that long ago and your comment pretty much summarised how I perceived the message of the comics. Vigilantes and so-called superheroes (assuming we don't get invaded by aliens or attacked by supervillians on a regular basis) are pointless. They simply satisfy their own psychological needs and beat up criminals for all the various reasons which have nothing to do with improving the world, because the real improvement is done in boring and tedious ways and look very unsexy in general.
@@sonchik6324 Who watches the Watchmen?
@@joeclaridy what if the vigilante didn't want to "change the world" and thought it was impossible, but instead set out to save individual lives and perhaps was content with the humbling nature of his limitations in delivering "Justice."
We as humans see fighting to the last man as honourable, so why can't someone fight crime even if it's futile on a large scale, all he's doing is risking his life for others, to me it seems completely just. Ninja were not warriors like the media represents, they could fight obviously at an expert professional level, but they were primarily focused on espionage. If vigilantes focused on saving people, and not destroying the criminal system, they would be more effective. Yeah of course we need to fight a war, but that's for the samurai, not the ninjas so to speak. And espionage is a ninjas job, i.e, your local millitary aren't going to be first responders are they.
If you rip enough leaves off a tree, the tree dies.
Revenge was a hot plot in Shakespeare's time:
Hamlet is in the thinking man's dilemma: whether to take action, take revenge in the heat of blood,
or sit and think about all the subtle excuses one might make to delay, postpone and abandon.
His other main treatments of 'Justice ' are in Othello and Measure for Measure.
An even older saying is " if you set out for revenge, first dig two graves."
Two is too little, need more because its a drug cartel
As a philosophy student, I am grateful for this channel. Always leaving me with hours of thought and desire for more reading on the subjects. Great video.
Great choice - you learn for life. Be blessed!
Good choice Rene girard saw the scapegoat mechanism as hidden injustice only collective conscious action can stop
You're in for an awesome ride, my friend. Enjoy it to the fullest extent!
Just don't be "that" philosophy student that arrogantly challenges your professors over arbitrary arguments. As a literature grad, I remember all of your faces lolol.
May want to spend a few of those hours finding out what job you might need to fall back on
Where I live, it seems as if most people who say they want "justice" actually just want the satisfaction of vengeance. Sometimes it feels as if the entire system I was born under is primarily concerned with providing emotional satisfaction for those who control and support it.
Believe me, you aren't the only one.
That's it isn't it? You believe in system you don't believe in evil. For you evil people don't exist. A pedophile rapist life is just as valuable as the life of the little girl whom he just raped, therefore it's wrong to end him. Funny that in your worldview the bad guys tend to avoid punishment for their crimes, which is convinient to them and no one else.
@@donaldhysa4836 This might be the most insane collection of assumptions anyone has ever made about me. Anyone who actively gets pleasure or satisfaction from the suffering of others is evil. Obviously this includes child abusers of all types. It also includes a lot of other people who cause suffering without breaking the law. I don't care about punishing them, I care about stopping them from hurting other people.
@@Pensive_Scarlet There needs to be punishment to deter them from hurting more people. Its as simple as that. If a lot of evil things were made legal a lot more people would do them. Punishment, retrobution is what stops them. So what are you on about talking about "emotional satisfaction "? This has always been first and foremost about stopping evil. The laws, punishment, revenge all of them
@@donaldhysa4836 I don't know where you're from, but here in the US punishment doesn't work. It only makes them stronger. Prison only teaches them how to better hurt people. People who decide to do something that warrants the death penalty will try to do as much damage as possible because they know they're going to die once they're caught. Not to mention, a lot of the punishment going on here is for literally victimless crimes. That's all about emotional satisfaction. People want other people to be punished because they believe some act like smoking a plant or having gay sex is morally wrong. We used to have actual laws against gay sex here, some are still on the books but not as enforced.
Even when it comes to a murder or something, all I ever see is people wanting to see the murderer punished and suffering. You might think that's not so bad until you realize there are so many people falsely accused. When it comes to sex crimes, even more so. Even when an actual sex crime can be proven to have happened, sometimes the wrong person is blamed or punished. Here we have multiple stories of people falsely accused and punished for decades who finally get their names cleared due to DNA evidence and such.
You're really naive if you believe the people who built the systems we live under only ever cared about real justice. There was a time when hanging runaway slaves was considered justice. It's always been about emotional satisfaction. People just want to feel justified in hurting or killing someone else. Maybe you're young and you just haven't seen enough yet, but I've witnessed too man people claiming to be the "good guys" acting just like the "bad guys". People who ruin lives in the name of "social justice". People who want their personal morals to be enforced on everyone (radical religious types, etc). There are very few people who want true justice. No one is saying evil things should be made legal, but I'm saying the law should be better designed and equipped to actually prevent evil and protect the innocent. So far the justice system in the US only encourages it, especially with so many people in the system benefiting from corruption and being allowed to act "above the law" because there is no one to stop them. Most of them are all about getting their emotional satisfaction, whether it's an officer beating a woman because she struggled a bit when he threw her against a car (just watched the video of this one yesterday), or a prosecutor colluding to get a win at any cost regardless of proper legal procedure or whether the person they're prosecuting is even truly guilty.
There is a fine line between Justice and Vengeance. Most illustrations of Batman he is displayed as vengeance but he pursues True Justice. most of his portrayals he refrains from killing because he believes in true justice instead if absolute justice. Punisher and Rorschach on the other hand aim for absolute justice no matter what the cost. While Batman's idea of justice is more appropriate sometimes there are people who can't be bothered with just fear. And at that moment the absolute justice doesn't feel so bad. The scene from Watchmen where Rorschach kills the psycho child killer is so satisfying. At such moments we as a society generate this idea of Justice. When prisoners are given death sentence for some heinous crime we say nothing. I mean what gives us the right to take a man's life. we just collectively agree to whatever our judiciary decides. But when same thing is done by an individual he is a criminal. What kind of idea of justice is that? or is it that we are not strong enough to make a decision of what someone deserves and we just impose the responsibility on the judiciary so we have no part in it and we don't have to deal with the repercussions.
Yeah, Batman would rather give a criminal traumatic brain injury that could potentially leave them paralyzed for life, but heaven forbid he put someone out of their misery!
"For I can see, that in the midst of death,
Life persists, in the midst of untruth,
Truth persists, in the midst of darkness, Light persists."
Who’s this quote by :?
@@samfavell7368 ghandi.
I like that
@@jordanlaramore5430 the whole quote is even better
@@gabrielmaddern6070 Have a link for the whole thing?
Just in time for the people punishing the wall street hedge fund brokers....
Yeah but that is collective, not individual. And it forces, hopefully, structural change. A vulnerability was exposed and the reaction by the rich is clearly litigious and will cost at best, blatantly illegal at worse. Could continued actions like this lead to recession or worse? Probably. But a catalyst for change is needed and this is bigger than markets. Breaking the greed motivation is critical to beginning to address bigger issues like the warming of this planet. Never forget the clock is ticking.
@@artemismoonbow2475 yes, and so we HOLD together!
(Breaks single stick into many)
Ape...Alone...Weak....
(Raises collective stick)
Ape Together Strong
@@artemismoonbow2475 Isn't "collective" justice mob justice?
@@Shellshock1918 Depends on how you define mob. The last guy we had in the white house would call many peaceful protestors a mob and lumped them with looters, but called the people who broke into the Capitol very special people. The term peaceful protest becomes an oxymoron to those who view valid accusations and calls to reform as violence.
To be fair Bats in the comics does do alot as Wayne but no amount of money can truly move monsters. In other words a place like Gotham needs Batman cause billionaire Wayne can't do much unless he takes control and I'm not talking about being mayor or governor but a more dictator role.
He also knows if he doesnt come for the thugs, the thugs will come for him, it happened to his parents and he doesnt want it to happen to him or worse alfred
nah it doesnt change everything because ultimately they need villains to keep selling issues and stories. Even if you have the ideal batman story of his dismantling the corrupt police, then politicians, then secret socities etc and individual villain leaders and fixing the suffering communties of gotham and reducing incetive for crime and gang culture- there will still need to be villains so they can sell stories.
@@mybawzarerichie There's that too but that reminds me of this. Batman is usually the only hero in his city yet he gets more flak as a "bad hero" or the "worst" hero despite Marvel's NYC being filled to them brim with heroes yet the crime rate us still high. So my question is why do people act like Bats is the failure hero and not Marvel's or other heroes when they tend to do the same or have back up?
@@shadowofdakness a lot of the nyc ones are working class heroes and not billionares capable of making change without putting on mask. A lot of the more affluent ones deal with cosmic threats or use science research to help others. As well as this many of them dont beat up crims because of trauma instead of going to therapy. Also a lot of batman stories state his existence brings out the criminals and he actively makes his city worse. Also i think lots of people just view marvel as more light hearted.
@@mybawzarerichie 1. It was pointed out that they would have been criminals regardless of Batman since the catalyst for Gotham being this bad is because Bats parents died. In fact the presence of Bats decreased crime rates and corruption in Gotham cause most of them are scared of Batman.
2. By your argument Marvel is still worse cause the only reason cosmic threats show up is cause of the heroes there and many of the heroes like Hulk and wolverine have super assassins and city destroyers come after them laying small towns to waste and I'm holding back here cause there's waay more.
3. They also said the same thing about Spiderman bringing out more criminals; are you saying it's true?
4. My first comment I clearly stated that having billions of dollars don't mean squat to the monsters in Gotham unless Bats is gonna use it to be a dictator.
5. Yes Marvel is seen as more light hearted but like Superman having no limits only normies believe that. Marvel's comics are way less light hearted than people think.
6. Planet protectors like Avengers and fantastic 4 aren't the only ones in NYC: Spiderman, Dare devil, Luke cage, and the X-men to name a few are city level heroes who work in NYC yet the crime rates are just as high if not higher than Gotham. Also planetary threats don't happen often so why the heck ain't the WEALTHY Avengers or Fantastic 4 helpin? Human torch got time to race Spiderman but doesn't have time to do some at home clean up??
7. If we gonna talk about bad reasons to become a superhero. First Bats don't see himself as one. Besides that what about Spiderman? Uuuuunnncccllleee Beeen 😫😫 anyone? I think war weapons are bad so hero time *Iron man*? I feel like interfering in other countries and ignore my responsibilities *Black Panther*? Sold my soul *Ghost Rider*? Let's stop wars and men are idiots *Wonder woman*? I'm really fast *Flash*?
Threw some DC there so you don't misunderstand things.
What has always appealed to me about batman, wasn't that he beat up "the bad people." Bruce Wayne is a man obsessed with fighting DEATH. Not causing death, but stopping it. He doesn't want anyone to die. It's a childish impulse to want to fight a force if nature but its also an impulse that can lead us to helping others. I grew up with the batman from the animated series (to this day my favorite batman.) And that version never fully leaned into retribution. He always trying to help people where he could and up lift them. My two favorite episodes of the show are the one where he spends a whole day trying to save Harley quinn after she is released from arkham asylum and a misunderstanding causes her life to go off the rails, and the one where the ventriloquist is cured and Bruce goes out if his way to set him uo with a job and a home and goes out of his way to keep him protected. The character in the series that best exemplified "retributive" justice was mister freeze and he was always portrayed as being in the wrong and shown to be fundamentally disturbed.
I never like retributive characters like the punisher as a kid. I always like the heroes who helped other people. I enjoyed daredevil more as I got older but I never idolized him I'm the same way as batman.
That is true, the Batman in the comics wasn’t about retribution but about justice and the movies show him being full of rage. In the comics Wayne does so much for Gotham, whereas in the movies Gotham is irredeemable despite most of the people being hardworking downtrodden people. Gotham is more like purgatory and the first level of hell
This video came out at the perfect time. I am currently finishing a superheroine book where my heroine had gone down that path of vengeance and ultimately ended up with nothing. So she no longer saw the point in her role as a superhero. But in the sequel that I am struggling to finish, powerful drug cartels are destroying her community and forcing her to go back into action.
Your video essay expressed the problems I've been having with Batman as a hero. Although I love his depiction in the cartoons and sometimes the movies, I can never forget that this man is a rich, billionaire playboy who uses his money to buy gadgets instead of investing in social reform. With the amount of money he has he could build community centers and youth programs that prevent kids from joining gangs. But no, he'll use it to buy gear he can use to continually beat up criminals.
In my book, I desperately wanted to explore what happens to the hero after the revenge has been satiated. What kind of life they would lead. Unfortunately, this led to a passive protagonist that was depressed and unmotivated to do anything. So I had to go with a different approach and explore a different question.
"If the hero recognizes that absolute power corrupted them and they decided to reject that power. If at a later time, an event forces them to use that power again, can that hero be entrusted to wield it responsibly and serve the greater good?"
This was a great video essay to help me with finishing this book. Thank you!
Read poppy war
Lateral violence
Promising Young Woman joins the long, often bloody, line of female revenge films.
The Bride in Kill Bill (Uma Thurman, yellow latex suit queen) blood lusts for revenge on her ex-lover Bill who tried to kill her on her wedding day. High school hottie turned vampire, Jennifer, due to a nasty boy band in Jennifer’s Body, now only feasts on boys. In the South Korean Lady Vengeance, Lee Geum-ja has spent 13 years in prison for a murder she did not commit, dreaming of the gory revenge she seeks against the real murderer, Mr Baek, who sexually assaulted and blackmailed her.
In each of these examples, the woman at the centre of the narrative has suffered at the hands of wicked men. She must rise from the ashes of her victimhood to meet these males with equal or more violent forces compelled by the men who have caused her to suffer. Fight fire with fire, spill blood for blood. There is an inescapable circularity here. Ironically, the tools at the disposal of the wronged woman are the same that caused her suffering. She is perpetually entrapped by the patriarchy.
@@perarduaadastra277 Good thing you didn't waste your money on it. :)
@@umchinagirard1800 Yes, this does seem to be a recurring theme when it comes to female revenge. However, unlike the films you mentioned, my narrative continues after the revenge has been dealt.
In each example you listed, the film ends and we see that vengeance has been dealt. But we never see how the individual is changed afterwards.
How their behaviors and view on life are altered or affected by achieving that revenge. In the situation with my books, the promising young woman is being asked to become a hero but act of revenge has affected her in ways she didn't anticipate.
I know this isn't the point of your comment, but Batman actually does do a lot of charity work and reinvestment into his community (Ex: the Wayne Foundation). How much this is focused on varies from writer to writer. The thing is that he's so crazy rich, that he can be a top philanthropist AND pose as a frivolous playboy AND be a gadgeteer vigilante. And stories can discuss his flawed attitude toward vigilantism (and how his mental health is affected) and also still have him be a community contributor.
This is fantastic. Another great example of these points is Death Note. It shows the inherent selfishness and narcissism behind the vigilante. Over time, the self imposed limitations fall away one by one and a vigilante becomes a tyrant.
Exactly. It's the thing that sets DN apart. Coz in it vigilante is the villain and they address it quickly and carefully in the second episode itself with L's intro. Watchmen series is a terrible example. It's exactly the opposite. It justifies not Batman esque vigilanteism but Kira like vigilanteism. It's far worse. They just said that he tried to do the thing right way just to write off the question. It's a horrific show which doesn't inspire good.
The ultimate evolution of any hero, is to ensure that they will no longer be needed.
Due to human nature though, they will ALWAYS be needed.
"In certain extreme situations, the law is inadequate. In order to shame its inadequacy, it is necessary to act outside the law to pursue natural justice. This is not vengeance; revenge is not a valid motive, it's an emotional response. No, not vengeance...punishment" - Frank Castle, The Punisher 2004
"Men get arrested; dogs get put down" - Rorschach, Watchmen
"Who is more naive? The revenge-seeking vigilante or the reactionary arguing in favor of a flawed and corrupt system, offering no solutions to the underlying problem and merely telling the man who has lost everything to rely on the same broken system that has already failed him?" - me
If you were actually interested in seeing it, the proposed solutions are there to find in the video. A society that produces dispassionate and equal justice, but more importantly works to improve the conditions that cause people to act injustly.
@@TheEvilCheesecake "a _society that produces dispassionate and equal justice and that works to improve the conditions that cause people to act_ injustly"
OH , you mean an Utopia ? That's soo cute~~ Well since that is never gonna exists , main comment is right . The proposed solutions are shiet LMAO
@@Dan_Kanerva it's a mistake to assume everyone is as lazy and unimaginative as you are, or as interested in violence.
@@TheEvilCheesecake "is _mistake to assume everyone is as lazy and unimaginative as_ u"
WUAHAHAHA !! oh god , nothing i love more than when the frustrated person who realises he lost the point , inmediatly goes for a : "but YOU are the problem here"... just chill out little buddy . This is not some opinion i have , is an opinion most people share because is obvious what you propose is just an idealistic dream that would come out of a 40's Superman comic.
THAT is why i said is "cute"
Me realising the impossibility of the scenario does not correlate a "love for violence" , are you okay ? I'm sorry but is really not my fault most people go for being realistic , while a few like you go for being chronically idealistic.
Especially for a state of society humanity is far from accomplish
@@Dan_Kanerva don't worry, i find your trying-hard to be exactly as amusing as you find mine.
Looking forward to watching this, but I just want to express gratitude in advance, because the problem of justice and evil is one of the central dilemmas of the human condition - so Plato's Republic and Batman - and everything in between - are all struggling with this same problem. Knowing LSOO as I do, I'm sure this examination of the question will be challenging and profound.
If you look at Norwegian prisons or German prisons I think you can see how in the US this problem is institutionalised, and then confronted in hollywood cinema, as a self reflection of its highly individualised society. Thats not to say that this is not a universal emotion anyone can experience. But as a whole I would put it in the cultural box and not completely regard it as an inherent component of the human condition.
I have also found that in those countries weapons and simply carrying a knife is illegal, Man, people cannot do anything anymore. One day they will apprehend you and you will just have to take it
@@martinjugolin2087 I'd rather live a better life than moan about not being able to carry a knife in public.
I see the point, but what about the ultimate counter example? What about Superman? Superman has all the power he needs to do whatever he wants. He seeks to use those powers for the good of all mankind. There is no past trauma, no hidden pain. He acts to achieve justice and he is the better man for it.
It's ironic.
Most will say Superman is an unrealistic character because of his morals and what he does with them
before they will say Superman is an unrealistic character because he can fly and shoot laser beams from his eyes.
Superman is a power fantasy because it's about a good person who actually has immense capability too.
They act after experiencing said injustice, the best way they know how. Doing nothing instead, making peace with it instead, it felt like total defeat. Letting said injustice thrive even further, unpunished, vile, and leaves a bitter taste to everyone.
"What devils love the most is the inaction and silence of the good men."
When the system fails someone
Don't be afraid when they don't obey it.
Did you even watch the video
knock knock
- whos there ?
2020
So romantic... No, they don't obey because they're children in adults bodies.
@@PEDROGARCIA-qj3gr really? If the system failed them and the criminals' victims by letting said criminals' acts go unpunished, should their victims and their families just sit there being ok with it? Someone must do something, and if the system doesn't, someone else will have to. Or what? Is it ok to let murderers, rapists and human traffickers go unpunished to you just to not be "children in adult bodies" like you say?
"The question of justice has concerned me of late; and I say, to any creature that may be listening, that there can be no justice so long as laws are absolute. Even life itself is an exercise in exceptions." Cpt. Jean-Luc Picard.
There's a saying I like...
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
I think he means that good men should create a just society where guilty should be punished equally as the crime he committed and not to encourage good men to become evil by pursuing justice individually,
To defeat evil good men must get together and create a world that can defeat evil and not go on a quest of defeating evil alone
"Defiance is a demand for change"
So you're suggesting we should just roll over and take it? Just be merciful little people who forgive our oppressors? Retribution is a mandatory act to ensuring those in power who are corrupt are held accountable when all the systems that were put in place to do so, have failed.
I've no words for how deeply this moved me, as a survivor of chronic abuse.
I loved Batman and vigilante superheroes as a kid for the same reason they were created by young, geeky Jewish men who grew up in the tenements and poorer suburbs of NYC: power fantasy. The ability to enact revenge on my tormentors and protect other victims.
Only in the last half of my 30s, after years of incredible effort, have I finally begun to heal. To face the true monsters that became a part of me, skulking in the darkest recesses of my mind.
And I've come to see the tragedy of vigilante tales, both those that embrace their power fantasy and those that critique it. Vigilante protagonists forever remain wounded children inside, unable to heal, unable to grow beyond their pain. That would provide resolution - and end their story.
To see this deeply personal level of understanding fleshed out and fully contextualized is so profound and meaningful, again, I literally can't express it. And in a way, I'm glad: your work speaks for itself.
Batman does what he does not simply because he’s a wounded child inside. He realizes his city needs him and somebody has to fight crime and corruption if the police and the mayor can’t do their job right.
@@user-sf3pg6fi1j i would agree with you if he did it differently.
That’s an interesting and insightful outlook. Thank you. I hope you have healed from the past wounds.
i am grateful that you are healing.
@@plasticweaponAre you going to forget about his parents being shot in front of him? Or the part about "I'm the vengeance, I'm the Night" part? Don't get me wrong, he is definitely putting in 50x times more effort than the entirety of GCPD combined. It's just not effective in the long run as video has shown.
Though I mostly agree with the essay so far there is a problem with this argument: it really ought to be said "in theory, the courts will act as impartial third parties" often in practice the court is as arbitrary in dealing out punishment as any mob or vigilante. As is evidence by the fact that the courts routinely sentence black defendants harsher than they do white defendants convicted of similar crimes.
Joe Arridy was convicted of the rape of two sisters and the murder of one. He was convicted despite the surviving sister identifying a different man of the rape and murder, despite testimony from three psychologists saying he was incapable of the acts he was accused of, and in spite of the man identified by the surviving sister confessing and being convicted. But Arridy, who had severe mentally disabled and the cops coerced him into confessing. He didn't even understand what death was and they murdered him.
Though ideally our courts are impartial deliverers of justice they are all so often as arbitrary and viscous as any lynch mob or costumed vigilante.
This mindset is one of the problems the video indirectly is trying to adress. Even if what you claim is true, which I could definitely believe in the USA, the
judicial system is still a far better alternative to any vigilante. Even if it appears to be arbitrary or corrupt at times or actually is arbitrary or corrupt, its still far better than any one person taking matters into their own hand. The System can be fixed/reformed, it can and is supervised and has checks and balances built into it. These are all foundations that can be built upon. Another problem that the video also clearly showed is that any form of crime or wrongdoing often elicits an emotional response, thats why anecdotal evidence like the one you presented here is so dangerous. Humans and therefore systems created by humans are always imperfect, but because injustice is such an emotional topic, we leave rational thought behind and jump to the conclusion that everything is corrupt, bad, arbitrary etc. whenever we hear a singular story about injustice. What we really ought to do is look at the statistics, the numbers and facts. Only then can you conclude if that certain injustice was the exception or the rule.
In 2021 law and courts are only a cost factor. Since we can't measure life justice does not even exist. Taking superhero/vigilante stories as a base to think about moral questions is pure nonsense. It is just entertainment, with popular IPs held hostage by creatively bankrupt suits. Imagine how much writing would have to be done if Batman killed the Joker or some institution held the nutjob properly after his first massacre.
@@Reaper13411 'The judicial system is still a far better alternative to any vigilante'.
I wouldn't say that. Mussolini arguably had the judiciary at his side, to bring him down people needed to overrule it and kill him directly. Was it vigilantism? Conceptually, yes, was it bad? No.
@@Reaper13411 the problem with this mindset is that it starts with the assumption that reform is possible. When we have been shown time and time again that no amount of reform can fix a foundational issue of the judicial system. To truly have an ethical system we would have to tear down the current one and rebuild a better one from scratch. But that would disrupt the status quo, which the power structures in place would never allow without a fight.
@@Alex_Barbosa But then again, even if all possible, I would posit that a new rebuilt system would ultimately end up the same. The problem is the nature of humans in face of justice/injustice, our emotional responses, the fact that certain people have power of life and death over others, that these people can and will be corrupted in a way or another. Only AI could be absolutely perfect. And lmao the amount of people unable to accept that AI is smarter then them and that AI can decide the fate of a human being... Another ethical debate in itself.
In french we have a saying for it: Ou il y a l'Homme il y a de l'Hommerie which would translate roughly to where there are Humans, Humaness is bound to happen.
This video reminds me of a term I read in a Ludlum book: target fixation. The pursuit of retribution blocks out other rational thought, making you aimless and it's guaranteed to cause collateral damage. Great video!
Man, you're videos never fail to grab me by the collar and hold my heart in a soft grip. I never fail to be moved by your work and the catharsis is always a thing in of itself. Keep up the great work my friend.
That idea that Bruce Wayne and his endless wealth could've done more for Gotham than Batman's vigilantism is something that's never really been addressed in movies, but was there the Nolan films (if you had to squint a bit to see it):
Thomas and Martha Wayne tried using their wealth to enact change and it didn't work, as evident by how they were killed
Of course, in the comics, Batman really doesn't enact permanent change either, because -- and I'm a bit foggy on the details so forgive me if I'm getting something wrong -- but the root of Gotham's problems is that the entire city is cursed by a demon's soul
That obviously has some unintended implications about the effectiveness of institutions, but hey, who's keeping track?
I hear there's a comic that explain the absurd amount of crime in Gotham City by introducing the "Council of Owl" Which is lead by Batman's rogue gallery (Joker, Riddler, etc). I think that comic will interest you.
The problem is that the wealthy themselves have no actual way of handling the thugs, Batman learned from his parents mistakes in that being strong by himself on top of being wealthy would both be far more effective on both fronts to save Gotham, than just sticking to one path, this is also something Daredevil goes through as well and both characters are self-aware that if they kill, they cant be on the other front anymore, since they´d be "dirty".
somehow I don't like the reason why nothing works is some magic curse, instead of it being some form of study of the human nature. it feels like a cop out saying that bad things will always happen so there should always be a batman just to sell comic books
Gotham is not a real city it's a never ending loop to sell comic books. Why would anyone live in Gotham with all these serial killers and terrorist running around. The government would most like quarantine the city.
@@dustinnabil798 Oh yeah I heard about the Court of Owls! Except, from what I remember reading, it's a secret society formed by the oldest families of Gotham who will do anything to stay in power. They are protected by their wealth and their "Talons", a legion of mindless, enhanced undead (?) soldiers. What's messed up is that Talons used to be regular people (mostly children) before they got snatched from the streets of Gotham (in one story, Dick Grayson/ Nightwing got turned into a Talon). The Waynes weren't included bc they were the only few that wanted to use their wealth for good causes. The death of Thomas and Martha Wayne was a turning point not just for Bruce, but for the whole city and all its rouges. If there's a reason behind Gotham's overall shitty-ness, it's probably that.
"If you kill a killer, the number of killers remains the same."
"....okay, but if I kill like, 99 killers..."
You cant expect god do all the work
2-1=1
The math speaks for itself.
@@redclayscholar620 99-1=98 the numbers don’t lie
So, if you kill a Nazi, do you automatically become as bad as the Nazi? Because that’s kind of what this quote seems to be implying.
@Diewott1
…You’re missing the metaphor here. Yes, if I kill a killer, I become a killer myself, but would I necessarily become as bad as whoever I killed? For example, take someone who kills someone else in self-defense. Or someone who had to kill someone to save the life of someone else. Both are killers, but they have legitimately valid reasons to kill in their respective scenarios, so we can’t really call them evil.
The problem with vigilantism is the same problem many forms of protest both peaceful/violent. It only works up to a certain point, and since it can become uncontrollable in lieu of righteousness quite quickly it becomes a new problem on top of existing ones.
Wait until you get robbed and then a masked 7 feet bat saves you and recovers your wallet by beating the criminal. You'll be grateful
I just can't believe the depth of this guy's content. So good. LSOO, thank you for enriching my understanding and appreciation of the art of storytelling.
From a writer who is focusing on a realistic vigilante based story: THANK YOU. This video is breathtaking, and is priceless for the world I'm hoping to build ♥️
Can I read that story
Can I read that story?
Happy writing and happy success!
You want to flip the genre back on it's head? Acknowledge the truth: Revenge is not always bitter. Revenge does not always leave you an empty shell. Revenge is not always your ruin. When successful, revenge is IMMENSELY satisfying - both in the short and long term. No story will admit this truth, because stories want people to take the high road and they want to be 'deep.' But revenge isn't deep. It's gratification.
Wow,that story Would be Extremely frustrating to read but also extremely satisfying
Duality/polarity requires a batman for every joker, and a joker for every batman. They are one, on opposite polarities.
Everybody talking about Wall Street but I'm just happy this came in time for the release date announcement for Zack Snyder's Justice League.
I am excited!
Speaking of Wall Street, the times we live in - now more than ever - prove TSoO's point: the people are reacting the way they are now with this whole Wall Street v. GameStop situation (and in general, towards the rich elites) because of a system that thrives on our suffering and misery, while they sit in their ivory towers without consequences (including celebrities). They tell us it's for our benefit to stay indoors, but when their actions contradict their words and people start hearing about it, we resort to extreme methods of retribution to counteract their transgressions and undermine what they believe or envision to be a society. The only difference is while the elites might have all the wealth and spheres of influence and access, the masses of people involved start to maintain a sense of community. For the past several years, all the issues we've been facing are a distraction from the real issues/enemies at work; this goes far beyond right or left, Republican or liberal, rich or poor. We only live one life, and in our lifetimes, we're more likely going to be stuck on this one planet we live on.
Your videos allow me to connect with deeper and deeper truths within myself, you mastery of editing, soundtrack, voice over and video clips, shakes me to my core, these videos always remind me of who I truly want to be, who I could be, who I am. Thank you
The way you build up an analysis to a compelling message for positive hope, I always watch your videos expecting to cry by the end of it. Amazing job!
This is interesting because the judicial system spawned out of the lack of accountability, and because of biased, emotional agendas and personal vengeances in older times. But, because of many instances of corruption in the justice system and lack of rightful punishments, that in turn spawned individuals who believed to be above the law, and were willing to do the things that the system couldn’t achieve through being given absolute power to themselves. But, what you’re arguing is that absolute power can’t be given to a singular person, but shared amongst others, which seems to be the concept of our current judicial system through the roles of the jury. But, I believe that just like the constant cycle of vengeance you mention in this video, there will always be a constant cycle of the pursuit for justice, since not everyone is morally righteous, and power will always eventually fall into the hands of individuals who abuse that power, whether it’s a so-called unbiased system or not. That will then call for a reform in the system, and the cycle will start all over again. Humans are imperfect, but it’s the fact that we are still striving for true justice that makes it all still worth it.
Why wasn't V FOR VENDETTA part of this analysis?
V for Vendetta was even more of a political commentary movie as a revenge story. The political statements far outweighed any commentary on revenge and justice even though it was woven into the story in an integral way. I'm sure LSOO considered it as it is an excellent revenge story, but the revenge was too integral to the political message so it wasn't appropriate for the themes he wanted to focus on. However the ending of the movie had a similar message as LSOO tried to convey in this essay. Could've been a great addition but I'm sure he had his reasons for picking what he did.
@@TheLeftCulprit On the other hand, it was also absolutely a revenge story, just on a societal scale, like Law Abiding Citizen but with more of the superhero pageantry of costumes and masks. I agree that it's noteble to use Law Abiding Citizen rather than V, but I think the former's use is due to how Butler's character was far more personally motivated, and his protests otherwise were nakedly disingenuous.
This video actually started out as an essay on HBO’s Watchmen, and gradually expanded from there. In hindsight, I definitely could have included V for Vendetta, especially towards the end, guess it slipped my mind as it is not a purely vigilante story, nor is it a purely revenge story, I see it more as a story on governmental oppression, though again, it has some amazing visuals that I probably could have fitted in
@@LikeStoriesofOld I take your work as a pure artifact, every choice being the right one to say what you need to say. This is one of your best works so far. Wonderful and deeply insightful.
@@rottensquid I agree. Keep up the goods.
This is a wonderful refinement of the discourse that's been going on around comicbook superheroes since forever. It's a little cheap to call Batman a fascist, or the Punisher. But when the state itself becomes Batman, becomes the Punisher, it becomes undeniably, unreservedly fascist.
Then send me to a fascist state.
@@sirramic202 That's what they all say when they think the state would never break down their doors and shoot them in their beds. Just those other people, ya know, the ones who deserve it.
Not every thing that is authoritarian is fascist, it's people like you that made the word meaningless. Batman isn't a fascist, and the Punisher especially isn't.
@@MALICEM12 Yes, that's what I was saying. But when the state itself becomes the Punisher, declares itself above the law, and that people don't matter as much as its own authority and order, that is the definition of fascism.
@@rottensquid say it 98 more times.
15:13 I still love comic version of this scene where Rorschach ties him up, sets the house on fire, gives him a saw and tells him that cutting the chain is useless
**This video is available without any ads or sponsors on Nebula: **nebula.tv/videos/like-stories-of-old-vigilantes-retribution-and-the-pursuit-of-meaningful-justice** **
Yeah Batman's stories are far more interesting than most other hero's
Daredevil
In DC, Batman because of his will power, the peak of human beings. A man A able to stand side by side with God's.
And in Marvel, Spider man, many of his stories are Peter dealing with loss and trying to find his own in a world full of other super heros.
Probably WallStreetBets
The Punisher!
I find this especially hard when we consider what happened in Uvalde. The fact that parents weren’t allowed in to even try to save their kids. Vigilantism is illegal, so people aren’t really allowed to protect people from people, police don’t have to protect people from people since it’s not their job, and so who’s left?
I'd argue that shooting someone who is threatening your child's life is not vigilantism, it's duty
@@johannesstephanusroos4969Pretty sure, it's called "self-defense".
@@lakshaykochhar6799 The terms aren't mutually exclusive
A population of traumatised victims is far easier to control then a population of well-rounded characters.
That is why there are so many conspiracies about That Event of 2001 and now the Most Recent Explosion of Violence in the Middle East being an intentional plot of those countries governments, because the result was just so convenient for the people in charge.
The harsh, boring reality is those governments just don't care about their people and some who know what they doing took advantage of a sudden opportunity and the rest just reacted like animals, like everyone else.
People and they're the worst 🤮
Whenever I am down or mentally overwhelmed it might feel as there’s nothing new to learn specially from UA-cam, Everytime I see your videos I’m deeply surprised at the depth you bring to everyone of them. I am very appreciative of your work. Do keep it up!
When are we gonna start holding society, ourselves, our lack of action accountable as much as we blame victims of injustice of how they are dealing with it?
More like: when are we gonna stop blaming society and play the victim, commit crime and demand free stuff, instead of taking action and change our life?
you didnt understand my comment boomer
@@archivesofarda986 you didnt understand my comment boomer
Every content you make make my day.
Brilliant my man.
Every. Darn. Time.
Thank you so much for you passion and your work, you really move something inside of me, at the end of your video always left me thinking.
Vengeance and justice often overlap, but woe betide those who think they are the same thing.
Agreed. The main difference between the two is that revenge/vengeance is personal and selfish, while justice is supposed to be impartial and fair.
Honestly a small love letter to your channel, your content is always really really good my guy. Thank you for this, it's always very well put together, very interesting and thought-provoking and I love that kind of stuff. Again thank you, and keep doing what you do best!
Impeccable choice of reference films&scenes, hands down my favorite video to date on ur channel. Great job!
I have reflected on movies and TV shows about this subject in quite a different light for so long now. Thank you for this very important video. 👍🏻
The Nolan Batman literally spent the first hour of the movie explaining why vigilantism was the only way to deal with organized crime at the time. Obviously not a permanent solution, but whenever I think "isn't there a better way" no, there wasn't.
I love your channel and all your videos, but this one is pure perfection!! So well put together and so insightful!!! Thank you so much for your amazing art!!!
I discover you a few months ago and i fell absolutly in love with your videos essay. I find your videos like a homecoming where I have always konwn all the things you say but never been able to put down so beautifully. It has been particularly satisfaying to see that most of the movies/shows/games you have so wonderfully unwarp for us, had already been special for me, even if I didn't know at the time why was that. So...thanks, thanks a lot for putting into words the big things and the little things that moves my soul when a true story is telled. I have a wish for the ages and is to see what video essay would you do with "The Leftovers". Thanks again for the love and care you take doing your stories of old.
Of all the channels on UA-cam, this is the one that has the most consistently fantastic videos. Well done!
Given the state of the world, it seems the state (mostly the people that are a part of it) can't be trusted with power, in which case it's up to the people to obtain justice by if possible peaceful means and hold those in power accountable. And if those in power make peaceful revolution impossible...well I believe JFK said it best what happens next.
MLK. You mean MLK.
The State cant be trusted with power, case they´ll be enabled into abusing it, like a drug addict, the only way to fix the problem is to take the Speculators who profit from Law making that speculates on marketting value by using politics out of the way, while also putting balances into place in regards to the State´s monopoly on violence.
Wow! So much to commend! Fantastic writing, editing, research and points brought up. Especially what you said about the connection between fictional vigilantes and strong emotional trauma. (Which I hadn't thought of that much in the bigger picture.)
Great video!
This is a fantastic essay. Thanks so much for creating it.
As I continue to think about the motivations of those individuals who attacked Capitol Hill on Jan. 6, many of whom I'm sure were motivated by a kind of real-world vigilante justice, the ideas you present here are definitely helpful in creating some kind of context. Thanks for that.
I think there needs to be a bigger video that details more and more into the way that heroes, vengeance and how different people react to it.
Some like Spiderman and other heroes, use loss as a drive to become a hero.
Others become a stoic, strong-willed symbol of justice.
And yet even others become the very psychopaths they wanted to stop.
It's not all black and white as specific media portrays it to be.
Society created these monsters and heroes, but the PEOPLE themselves vary, and changed the outcomes of their loss.
The error of this video is that it paints Batman as a mere vigilante out for revenge. Batman doesn't get revenge. He captures the bad guy and hands them to the cops. It's the equivalent of a citizen making an arrest because the cops in the poor community are ill-equipped to handle all crime everywhere at all time. ie lack of funding or resources to spare to do it themselves. Go to third world countries where the police can be bribed by rich criminals to let them off easy. That is where characters like Batman shine because he can go outside of the system to get the job done. It's like hiring a cop of high quality that is better at detective work than all the ones in your town to catch killers or thieves who are too smart for the regular cops. And then when found you hand them to the authorities who had him on the wanted list anyway. Batman is not a vigilante who just makes up rules as he sees fit. He is just a very smart detective in a bat costume. Vigilante would definitely be the Punisher or Wolverine. (wolverine is pretty much a clint eastwood dirty harry archetype) When police ask for help from the community in finding a wanted criminal, you simply ringing up the tip line to tell them you saw the guy they looking for helps them. That's not being a vigilante. That is no different to Batman finding where the Joker is hiding and hunting him down for cops who don't seem to be doing a good job at it themselves. If Batman actually kills joker for petty revenge (rather than protecting the community from insane clown man) then you would have a case. (it happened in the old Batman 1989 movie but that was a frank miller-ish interpretation which strays from the classic version. Frank Miller is known for making more dark and gritty versions of comic characters for older comic book readers so this version of Batman where he will kill the bad guy is the exception not the rule, since regular Batman is supposed to be a traditional hero that just wears black not an assassin like John Wick. Frank Miller Batman is more of a "what if?" Batman than the normal one although you would not think this since the psychopathic version of Batman is a lot more popular amoung the heavy metal crowd haha)
Batman in his heart is like Superman
@@silverdays2909 No, he´s like Daredevil, both characters put up a nice front, while having nasty shadow front on their backs, but that shadow is justified in that, if they merely fought on one civilized front they´d lose all the time, Fisk would get away with his evil and Bruce would´ve to deal with gotham remaining a hellhole.
The characters become vigilantes by necessity and thats the key factor in why they have the no kill rule, case if they step over that line they ruin the balance between their nicer front and their darker side and would go into Anti-hero territory like what happened with Jason Todd.
Superman is different in that he never needed to insist on a no kill rule, he already does it from the get go, he´s more civilized in his approach, he doesnt have a darker side as big as the other two, he´s just a good samaritan.
@@sebas8225 Dude they both got huge families
The Bat Family
The Super Family
Batman was made by tragic but that does not change who Bruce Wayan is, he is a good person trying his best
So basically where the "classic" vigilante takes the role of the judge, jury and executioner, Batman only takes the role of the Executioner or rather the police. While you have somewhat of a point, theres a few issues here. First of all Batman does not hand everyone over, especially the henchmen are often just being left on the crime scene for the police to collect, which is problematic on its own. Even worse while Batman doesnt kill, he stops crime by punishing indiscriminately. The henchmen get the same treatment as the super villain, a one time robber gets beaten up just as bad as a serial killer or sometimes even less. But the worst thing it doesnt counter the argument of Bruce Wayne being able to change much more than Batman ever could with his money, power, influence and status.
@@Reaper13411 the thing is... Bruce does both. Uses his money and power to fund projects that benefit the community. And is batman to essential try to stop criminals from destroying it. Sure, when he gets too worked up on being Batman he forgets how important Bruce is to the community... That characters like Batgirl is so thoughtful that she encourages Bruce to do more with his money. But Gotham without Batman either becomes a worse place or a better place. Depends how Gotham is being written. Batman within his own right is a symbol of hope... And that does more good then a community center to some.
This is one of the best video essays I've ever seen on ANY subject.
You are a deep thinker but very practical. It can be seen in your videos you are optimistic about this world and humanity which is probably the biggest contribution you are making to this world because these videos give people understanding, drive and motivation in their life on a different level. Amazing!!!
Still doesn't change the fact that the justice systems are incredibly flawed.
The thing about vigilantes is the fact they exist is a inditement of the failing of justice. They aren’t necessarily right for doing what they do but I don’t think their wrong either. If they are consistent they can have a meaningful story.
Wish me luck then
I really freaking love it that you speak to current events versus ignore them. I think that takes courage for some and less for others because they are naturally that way. Thanks for being you
MY hat is off to you sir, you have become a really good essayist! i enjoyed every bit of your work, keep the great videos!
After that Watchmen scene with Rorschach in prison, I can't help but imagine a vigilante who wears a mask to not protect himself, but to protect the ones he goes after. Without that mask, he's more unhinged, but with it, he's wearing the mask of an ideal. New anti-hero idea.
Daredevil was so good!!
I love this channel, his voice is soothing and his spirit is so peaceful. I would like to spend an afternoon with him. Sending appreciation from North Carolina! 👍
Vachss: Let's just be honest about it-with forgiveness-that it is an individual choice and that the right belongs to the wronged, not society, but to the person actually wronged. Telling people that you can not heal unless you forgive is a pernicious, destructive lie because so many people say, "I can't forgive what they did to me so I'm doomed. I'll never heal." As if you had the obligation not only to be abused but to forgive the abuser. There's nothing about that dynamic that's psychologically correct. Nothing. In a way, it's supporting-I'm the therapist and I'm telling you-"Yeah, look Todd, I did these horrible things to you but you have to forgive them." So who am I advocating for there? Whose side am I on?
Andrew Vachss..Child Abuse Attorney
Giving pedophiles only 1 year in prison. Letting killer cops go because they “feared for their lives” giving innocent black children the electric chair is fair justice right?
Vigilante tackles the corrupt law and give criminals exactly what they deserve.
And that is why there is difference between vigilantes and heroes. Most people see vigilantes as problems, and some are. Yet some become more than just that, some become heroes. So while vigilantes can't get meaningful justice, heroes can. Without the bias or flaws of impartial law.
Heroes are vigilantes with flavor text.
The devil all the time is another amazing film with themes of vigilantism.
Never stop making these videos! You're great at them and they're really interesting
This was what I’ve always thought but I’ve never been able to express with your splendid eloquence. Great job. Keep it up.
Subscribing now.
The argument broke down for me the moment you made the arbitrary assertion that somehow violence performed by those effected by a wrong or wrongs is somehow inherently destructive and damaging to the fabric of society around them, but that when the /government/ does the EXACT same things, or usually, far worse, that somehow makes those acts "okay", becuase it's violence from a third party, becuase "It's retribution enacted by an impersonal, unemotional third party that is less likely to punish disproportionately, and that is less likely to start or maintain a cycle of retributive violence."
I'm not sure where you live, sir, or what your personal experience of government has been, but historically speaking, the absolute greatest sources /of/ cyclic retributive violence /are/ governments. And as for "impersonal, unemotional third party", sure. On paper. We don't live in a world on paper, though. We live in a world where government power is routinely applied to benefit the few at the pain of the many.
Less likely to "disproportionately punish?" /One/ man decided to bomb Pearl Harbor. The act was carried out by less than a few thousand other men. What would a vigiliante have done about it? Killed one man? Maybe killed a handful? A dozen? A few dozen at most?
Do you recall the "proportionate" punishment decided on and enacted in response to it by your vaunted third party?
If not, it was the vaporization of 500 thousand people, and the decades long irradiation of two of a countries largest cities, chosen not for strategic or tactical value, but becuase of population density and cultural value. Not a single one of which, those 500 thousand plus "punished", made any decision, flew any plane, pulled any trigger, relevant to the event in question.
/THAT/ is your "third parties" idea of "proportionate" punishment.
Absolutely agree. Why is it moral for the state to kidnap someone and lock them up for "justice", but if I do the same, it's suddenly morally wrong? Also, "proportionate" punishment is completely arbitrary. How you do know the thief deserves a fine, a year in prison, or death?
There is no difference morally between vigilantes and the state enacting "justice" other than name. Maybe the state is more thorough with determining guilt/innocence, but at that point, it's not longer a moral issue, but an epistemic one.
The solution to injust government is not vigilantes. It's forcing the government to become just.
@@TheEvilCheesecake Why would it be wrong to use vigilantism though? The solution to poverty is the govt enacting better policies, not charities, yet you wouldn't claim charities are morally wrong.
Also, how do you define justice?
@@hoominbeeing charities are unnecessary when you have a state that works correctly. So it's a diversion of resources away from the primary objective. Similarly, vigilante justice is (even when actually as just as they think they are) a detour away from the real solution, not a solution itself.
@@TheEvilCheesecake Do you think charities are morally wrong?
Do you think vigilantism is morally wrong?
What is your definition of justice?
First time viewer here, this guy’s content is incredible. Great introduction as well. Please keep making content.
All of his stuff is incredible. Watching it gives me more hope for humanity.
I particularly love his video on "moral victory". It's mainly about The Lord of the Rings, but it gives such an excellent, secular breakdown on the idea of god and faith in general.
What a deep philosophical dive into such an intriguing topic. I always enjoy your videos, great work!
Like Stories of Old still making the best docs about films on youtube. Thanks for sharing.
Glad people like you exist. Gives us such an insite on people.