Shop Shorts - Drill Press Chuck Runout and Replacement
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- Опубліковано 17 кві 2022
- Do your drill bits wobble? Does your drill press need a new chuck? I show you how to check drill press runout and then replace it if necessary.
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#87 - Навчання та стиль
Lots of good sense here. My only suggestion would be to place a block of wood under the chuck and hammer 'it', rather than the chuck, when installing the chuck into the drill press. Also, have the jaws all the way up in the chuck, so you're not putting the impact directly on them, and damaging them internally. -regards, Doug
The jaws were completely recessed, but yes, I probably should’ve used a block of wood. I had just lightly tapped it on in the video just in case I needed to remove it. That way it was easier to tap off.
Someone showed me once, that when you chuck up a bit and tighten it up with the key you just don't tighten on one hole. You half tighten on one hole, pin 120 degrees and tighten a bit more and then finish in the third hole. I tested three drill presses this way. it makes a difference. I think it's the same way that you don't tighten one jaw on a piece in a lathe and expect it to be centred.
For drill presses with a good chuck, it really doesn’t make a difference because you’re spinning the chuck regardless of where you insert the key. Think about how the outer sleeve is all one piece.
To Davewolff. You are probably right. he was an old guy and I'm an old guy now. I do it now out of habit. I have a drill press with a jacobs chuck now . much improved. I was using a 1949 delta rockwell which I still have. I like the advice about tapping it true. Thanks
@@JaredsShop It does make a difference, try it.
@@pinballrobbie
I’ve done it for years out of habit but it doesn’t help. It’s physics. The solid ring around the chuck will spin the same regardless of where the key is inserted. If there is anything at play, it might be the insertion of the bit, how someone holds it, etc. The only chuck that needs tightened in different positions is one with independent jaws.
@@JaredsShop Despite the physics I have not found this to be the case, I must concur with bobelliott2748.
Big runout = triangular holes!
Unless you spend big $, Jacobs type drill chucks are only good to 0.003" TIR, (total indicated runout).
If you notice, the original chuck is stamped w/ JT3, which is a Jacobs taper. That is the female taper in the chuck.
The tapers can be trued by bluing the taper surface, driving it home, removing & checking the surface contact.
Truing the tapers is the 1st step. Unless you do that first, the only hope is getting 2 runouts to cancel each other, which doesn't happen easily.
If you can minimize your TIR at the spindle, then improving chucks is worth the $.
Another factor introducing TIR is using a drill bit, even a 'good' American bit. The +- tolerances of bits is huge compared to 0.003" TIR of a chuck.
Use a precision ground dowel pin, instead. The cheapest TIR measuring tool. If you have a good reamer, that'll work.
I thought drill or reamer blanks would be adequate, & learned quickly they weren't.
I replaced an old drill press which drilled very nice triangular holes.
My new drill press had ~0.004" TIR at the chuck. W/ very little truing, I got 0.0002" at the JT3.
I had a 'good' 5/8" Jacobs chuck I paid +$100 for in the '90's, then the drill press died & all I could afford at the time was the triangular hole drill press. The chuck had 1-2yrs use.
Put the 'good' chuck on the spindle w/ virtually no TIR, (0.0002"). Now had 0.004".
A few months prior I bought an ER32 collet chuck & collets for my small lathe. Max capacity ~49/64" (20mm).
While looking for a better Jacobs type chuck, I stumbled upon an ER32 collet chuck w/ a JT3 taper on eBay for $37.
Took a chance & bought one.
The TIR on my drill press is now between 0.0000" & 0.0001". The surface irregularity of the dowel pin in a collet causes enough deflection, the TIR is hard to measure, & the dowel is precision ground.
The set of ER32 collets I bought were the cheapest Chinesium set on eBay, but for the lathe, reproducibility is more important than TIR. I did do some minor truing of the chuck, but didn't tpuch the collets.
I paid $37.00 for the collet chuck for the drive press & gained 3/4" capacity. A Jacobs type chuck w/ 3/4" capacity would be $300-350, min.
I thought the hassle of changing collets wouldn't be worth it, but it's not the deal breaker I anticipated.
I got virtually no TIR, 3/4" cap, PLUS I can now use the ER collets in collet blocks.
Can you imagine trying to end drill 1/8" rod w/ a 1/16" bit in your drill press? W/ a collet block it's a breeze. Same for cross drilling rod. It more than makes up for not having a keyless chuck.
The $ saved on ER32 vs Jacobs pays for a hex & square collet block.
I can perform drilling operations on my drill press I've only been able to do on a quill type mill.
Still can't mill w/ it, since there's no radial rigidity, but precise drilling is no problem.
Consider going to an ER32 or ER40 collet chuck to improve the performance of your drill press. You will not regret it.
Yell at me w/ ???.
GeoD
Agree. Do all of my drilling on my mill, and if high accuracy is needed I use a collet to hold the drill.
Don't worry about the outside of the spindle. Check the bore the taper runs in for runout. Mark the chuck when you remove it. Clean everything and check for burrs. Reinstall the chuck into the spindle and recheck the runout. If no improvement knock out the Morse taper shank and rotate it 180 degrees and reinstall. Check again. If there is improvement mark the chuck so it can be put in the same way. Do the same process with the chuck removed from the Morse taper adapter. By trial find the least runout. Then set the chuck onto the Morse taper adapter with a wood block on the chuck face with the jaws fully retracted.
Lastly are the chuck jaws themselves. If the runout is coming from there, check the jaws for damage. If damaged or worn the best thing is to replace the jaws. The jaws are very hard and ground in sets. Here is where having a name-brand chuck pays off. There are repair kits for chucks like Jacobs and Albrecht. Chinesium chucks are like most Chinese products with their mysterious origins. Finding repair parts for anything made in China is usually a hopeless task. If money is an issue, throw the dice and buy another Chinese chuck and pray that it is better than what you have now. It will probably be cheaper than an Albrecht repair kit.
You can do the same with the Jacobs taper in the chuck. Sometimes using a combination of rotating the Morse and Jacobs tapers you can tweak most of the runout to really low numbers.
If you want to see what you run out really means at the business end of the drill bit, then what you want to do is chuck your drill bit in upside down. And then run your indicator on the shank at the far end.
No. It's not an accurate way of measuring that. The chuck jaws are not long enough to engage a two flute spiral with a three jaw chuck. The BEST way is to use a piece of silver steel ( here in theUK ) or in American parlance, a piece of drill rod as that is centerless ground to high tolerance and will show up any runout. And the longer the piece of drill rod, the further away from the original run out should increase the run out and make it easier to quantify.
@@samrodian919 Longer =bigger- Depends on if is a radial or parallel error. Best also to use more than one diameter of rod- it could be a number of causes. Sometimes changing the jaws is enough...
Any stock steel bar that is straight and fit the chuck is the way to go. My cheap drill press is fine on the retracted position, once you start going down you notice how much play is in it. It wold be good procedure to mesure runout all across the shaft at different positions!
I highly commend and celebrate your video and guide; no annoying music, straight to the point and excellent tutorial commentary. Thank you for keeping it explainable and digestible!
Thank you VERY much for the feedback.
I found this video incredibly valuable. I can’t imagine how else I would have learned about this.
The adapter is called an arbor…the flat part at the end is called a tang…if the arbor is threaded with no tang, a cap headed screw can be screwed in to act as the tang for removal from the drill press quill..
Isn’t the threaded top of the chuck shaft meant for the pull rod of a milling machine? The chuck was ordered with an incorrect shaft.
@@petermarsh4993-Correct-wrong adapter/application.
Nice to see the correct terminology being used. The Morse Taper with threaded end is for use in a milling machine with a threaded drawer rod. For use in a drilling machine, a bolt with correct thread can be screwed into the threaded end and used as the ‘tang’ for drift extraction. Machinists know all this, the average DIY user most likely does not, so we have to help fill in the knowledge gaps. Greetings from Tasmania Australia 👍😁🇦🇺
I agree.
Fit a bolt in the end with some loctite.
I have fitted a bolt into my tangless morse taper 2 on the drill chuck so i can extract it from my tailstock on the lathe.
The thread can be used to hold it in or to help release it.
When I was learning to become a machinist we were taught to snug down all three "holes" on the chuck regardless of who made it. At close tolerances it makes a difference. That was 48 years ago and old habit now.
Great video! I bought that same Wen keyless chuck for my Wen 1412 drill press. I found it has excellent runout, but as you show in the video the arbor without a tang was too short to get it out of my quill with the wedge that came with the drill press. I tried buying the MT2-B16 adapter, but couldn’t get the original adapter out of the chuck. I called Wen and found that the LA162 chuck is made tor lathes. They recommend the DPA158 keyless chuck for drill presses. It has the tang that locks in the arbor and sticks up high enough to knock out with the wedge. Wen sells both chucks for the same price.
Good information on the part numbers. It’s a little ironic that the description states it is for drill presses, lathes, and mills. I didn’t have an issue getting the tang out of either chuck I received. I just put in on top of a vise with the jaws slightly open and used a punch and large hammer.
Either way, the other part number definitely could’ve saved that step!
Incredibly helpful, thank you! I’m upgrading my old Delta 12” to the Nova Voyager and I will upgrade the stock chuck to a keyless (which is the main reason I selected your video). Now I know how to make the swap and check runout and maximize accuracy.
Real plain language, plus you went at a speed where I could follow you, thanks for that.
Thank you!!
Thank-you I have a cheep princess auto drill press I need to do this to mine. Thanks again.
Welcome! Thank you!!
A lot of great info thank you
Very useful video for anyone with drill press runout issues.
Thanks!!
Thank You for sharing 😊
Good video, useful information. Thanks
Thank you!!
Good video. Having the same problem with my delta drill press. Thanks
Thank you! I hope you get yours solved.
I found your video helpful. I’ll check the runout with my dial indicator soon and try a new chuck. The info about the naming of adapters was very helpful. Id love to get a lathe and milling machine but my wallet screams every time I look at Precision Mathews or Grizzly. Lol
Thanks!
Excellent presentation. Very clear. Mike in Germany
Thank you!!!
great stuff....thanks Jared......Paul in Florida
Thank you!!!
Curious to know if the drill chuck is performing well with the same runout after a year. Thanks for the video
I did the exact thing to my old AMT press. The old 1/2 inch chuck was causing the bit to walk all over the place. Put a Key less on and not sure why I hadn't done it sooner. I've been super happy with its performance.
Awesome. Glad to hear others have seen the same success.
Like your video. I have and older floor model and would like to replace the quill bearings. Do you have any idea where I begin. A replacement quill with two bearings would even be a better plan?
I would emery cloth the areas where the guage rides. Even a tiny bit of dust,dirt, or rust will affect the reading of the guage.
How did you find this chuck? There are lots similar available, and I need to do exactly the same thing on my drill press.
Reading a lot of the comments here. Haven't seen one that brings up the idea of placing the indicator base on the head of the drill press instead of the table. When turning the spindle by hand, shaking the whole drill press, seems like there could be an amount of play between the head and the table.
I don’t think that’s an issue because the runout was very repeatable. It would’ve been more random if it was loose. I did have to table tightened also.
@@JaredsShop I guess it stands to reason that one would want to indicate from the table to the spindle. After all, that's where the tool meets the work. You can probably guess I'm not a machinist. Just a stinkin carpenter poking my nose where it doesn't belong. Lol
You should have run the drill and rechecked your runout, popped the drill head out [ after marking}and rotated it and see if the runout is the same or +/- ,
Rubber gloves to work on a drill press! What are you hoping not to catch from it?
I have to be available to answer my phone at any point in time and then go to my computer. These keep my hands clean but give better grip and dexterity compared to mechanix gloves.
@@JaredsShop Ok, I see. Makes sense.
Adaptor = arbor. Tab = tang
Wow the Goonies t -shirt, brought a smile and some memories for me the 80's kid 😃 enjoyed the rest of the video too , very useful for for someone who likes and needs to repair, modify tool's like me 👍🔧🪛🗜🛠
Glad you liked the shirt!! 😁
Man, I wish you could see the runout on my antique Craftsman. It’s off by a baby’s finger. I hardly use it, but I need to get it up to spec.
Get a cheap dial indicator from Amazon and start checking parts.
Here’s a cheap one.
amzn.to/460nkDQ
Fowler is a good one.
amzn.to/3oP3Cuo
@@JaredsShop I know you’re right. People think you have all kind of time to get things done when you retire. I have two grand babies to watch and three old bikes to keep running. Not the greatest excuses, but I’ll get to, I promise. ( you can trust me)?
Thanks, didn't even know that this could be a problem AND that it can be rectified!
Welcome! Thank you.
Very nice and to the point video. Found it by accident and now became a subscriber as I like your style.
I have bought a used drill press and in the process of restoring. So this is very relevant and useful. BTW if I find the main shaft (& not the extension or the chuck) to be the culprit what is the solution? Do I need to replace the bearings? Since the drill press is an old one I don't think any spare parts are available. Thanks in advance for any insights you can give.
Sorry, watching the second time you did gopod. still i would have licked to see more of how you increase closer tolerance on your tools. i remember a lot of things like that from my work.
Increasing the tolerance on this one was as simple as buying a more true arbor and chuck. Luckily the spindle was already true.
Good video, addressed process well. The tough part seems to be knowing specs of which parts you are changing… I. E. ; how do you know it is a Jacobs taper?
Thank you!
My old chuck had JT3 stamped on the top. If you closely when I’m measuring that, you can see the stamp marks. If you’re replacing a chuck, the only thing to worry about is what new adapter you’ll need for your drill, which I should have explained is easiest to tell my measuring with a caliper. I’ve been around machine tools for decades so the MT2 was second hand for me. Most drill presses are going to be an MT if some size. A lot of drill bits are offered with those shafts so the bit goes directly into the spindle without using s chuck.
I've been a machinist for 50 years , MOST drill presses most have a Morse Taper . IF you KNOW for sure that the chuck you have is a Morse taper & when you try to fit it , if it wobbles or DOESN't fit the internal taper in any way , then it ISN"T a Morse taper . the other possible tapers that it might be would be ... a "JARNO taper " , a " Browne & Sharpe taper " & " American National Standard taper " also there is a " British Standard taper " . In 50 years of running drill presses manufactured between 1890 & 1970 I've Only seen the " Jarno taper " & the " Browne & Sharpe taper " ONCE , each . Your drill press would Have to be REALLY OLD .
How do I order a keyless chuck for central machinery bench drill press 10" 12 speed.from harbor freight when I turned it on the chuck wobbles and the drill press shakes. it's about a year old and and don't use it a lot. I do have some videos of it running too.
Thx hope to hear from you soon
The link to the keyless chuck is in the description. Then pop yours out and see what king of shaft you need. You can buy different shaft sizes and tapers to fit the chuck.
3 thou is much better than most press drill building tolerances.
Unlesss you have a precision industrial drill as Argoba Maskiner or something alike, the general precision is much less than that.
very good video.
Thank you. The initial runout was so bad you could see the drill bit wobble pretty bad.
The original adapter usually comes with a threated hole in the end of taper. You should have put a bolt in there with a thread lock and shape the bolt to fit in instead buying a new adapter. Just a friendly advice.
How did you remove the arbor from the chuck? Wish you would have shown that in the video. I have a JT3 Drill press and wanted to purchase this chuck and replace the arbor for one that fits.
My apologies. Push the spindle down and look for a slot. Then use a tapered drift to drive out the chuck. I had popped mine out several times while using larger MT bits.
I think that he didn't answer your question.
To properly remove a tapered arbor from a chuck requires a pair of tapered wedges sized for your machine. McMaster Carr stocks all the choices you might need. The wedges are reverse matched and work in pairs. The wedges straddle the arbor shank. As they are forced together the thickness increases separating the tapered fit. You can improvise with a Rube Goldberg approach, but the removal tool is designed to work and cause no unintentional damage.
How do you remove the chuck when your drill press does not have that cutout for the wedge? My Delta 17-965 is a floor model and does not have that slot.
look at the chuck and if it has JT3 printed on its side its a #3 Jacobs taper , you need 2 wedges inserted directly above the chuck opposite each other and you drive them towards each other wedging the chuck off. Check the writing on the chuck if it has a thread size like 3/8 24 then it threads on and you can use the key and just insert it in a hole and strike the key with a brass hammer , just look up inside the center to make sure there is no screw in there. If there is its lefthand thread and will need to be removed first.
What is the name of the triangle shaped tool that you inserted to release the spindle from the press?
A drift.
@@JaredsShopActually they're called wedges. :)
How has the wen keyless chuck been working for you
So far, so good. I have no complaints. I know it’s not an expensive high quality brand, but it’s built well and works well.
Interesting 🤔 i would think that your upper in drill press would probably have zero runout. I just have a Harbor freight tabletop deal. That has some crazy runout in it.
Yes. The spindle itself does not have runout, thank goodness.
Could you just put a short piece of Round Stock in above the new Chuck?
That piece is precision ground and tapered.
Can you adjust the old stuff or only remedy is to buy new?
You can rebuild a chuck.
The only way to true the shaft would be to have it ground.
drill bits are NOT a precision item to check concentricity, get a proper parallel bar to check that
All of the bits were the same so I felt confident in results. I’ve setup many CNC and manual machine tools in the past and am familiar with precision setup. This was an example for the average homeowner.
Please do not use a hammer to remove morse tapers from the quill.
Simply pull down handle expose and align slot as shown Inset wedge then hold chuck or drill bit and lightly let the drill up and lightly bump the quil up.
Bonus no more dropping drills or chucks!
You can buy a MT2 with or without a tang....
Yep
🍻
Gloves?.
What?
i learned to hate keyless chucks, much longer dan a normal chuck and always slipping and therefor f@king up your drillbits.
never ever keyless chucks for me....
Understood. I like both and we’ll see how well this one works. So far it hasn’t slipped on anything I’ve used it on. If I find it doesn’t hold up then I’ll swap it out for a nice keyed chuck.
I have an older Milwaukee corded drill from the late 90s that has a ratcheting chuck. There was no key. It was a keyless chuck but not in the conventional sense. You slid a collar back, pulled the trigger, and slid the collar forward. As you did that, it would “ratchet” and tighten the jaws. I haven’t seen a chuck like that since. It must have had issues that I haven’t seen yet.
What?, Why not mark the high spot on the drill bit and rotate it opposite high spot on spindle, Try it as see it it increases accuracy, See in next Video.
There wasn’t a high spot on that bit. The chuck itself was the issue. I had rotated the bit multiple times but it still had the same issue at the same spot.
Thx u! o7
You have rust and pits on the chuck that is easily 0.0015 inch
Your runout will lessen if you use a smaller drill bit, as more of the jaw teeth are engaged.
You would probably do better using a precision drill bit made in Europe, Switzerland or Germany.
If the Chinese spent a bit more time making things they could turn out decent stuff
Ahh yes, ye olde credit card fix!
Total rubbish, try checking the Spindle or chuck with the under power running it at full speed that will show the true runout. Turning the spindle slowly by hand proves nothingn
The runout is bad under power too, which is what led me down this path. Bits walk all over the place.
I disagree spindle run out is checked by hand when machine is running vibration from machine will have your indicator bouncing all over. NMTB ( National machine tool builder) spec's for run out are tested with machine spindle rotated by hand not at full speed there is a test for bearing deviation but requires much more than a indicator to be done.
This video is describing a perfectly good process. Runout doesn't magically get better on a belt driven bench drill press when it spins up.
05:50 *Holy Virgin Mary* - that cries for a new chuck.
Yes it does.
That's not how you timestamp...
@@janeblogs324 and.. where did I go wrong?
@@GNU_Linux_for_good you timestamped after/passed the action, so clicking it shows us nothing
Great video, pretty bad audio.