People post clips like this out of context because they want attention, influencers need content, and people lack self confidence…. The top shooters and trainers in the world don’t do this. They focus on training and building up rather than tearing down.
Who are the top trainers in the world? I don't have access to them where I live in South Africa, I've taught myself to shoot pistol from UA-cam and online stuff. I've tested out just about every technique there is out there from all the tacticool and competitive dudes, the stuff that Ben is teaching is the stuff that I've had the most success with. I'm making big strides now in my training and competitive shooting. From what I know, he's the best. I'm sure there's a lot of guys and techniques out there that I don't know. So I'd really appreciate it if you could educate me, if there's someone better I'd really like to find out. But if they don't do virual training it's not gonna help me much unless they're willing to come to South Africa
“Top shooters and trainers don’t do this.” You must be new here, but I’m pretty sure Ben meets the definition of “top” in both of those categories. As for taking clips of context, Ben and Matt did a full discussion with Travis about multiple topics and one of them was Travis’ insistence on using scientific words and other such gimmicks that don’t transfer over to making people shoot better. Go watch the episode for yourself, but most people agree that it didn’t go well for Travis.
The idea that if you don't accept that his system is right you shouldn't carry a firearm is an idiotic statement. Training and improving should be a central part of carrying a firearm but doing it only in a prescribed way is moronic. The idea that we can't critique training methodologies is whar allows bullshit to be taught.
I remember when Travis stated because his wife is a doctor, that he knew everything in the medical field lmao. Ben said He didn't know that being a medical field expert was sexually transmitted lmao
I have a phd in developmental psycholinguistics. Using scientific terms with non-scientists is elitist and inhibits mutual understanding of the topic discussed. I’ll take common language everyday that promotes easy, efficient understanding.
Yp. Science is incredibly important but there's a separation between the part where you discover new information and the sciency terms can make sense and the part where you disseminate the results. There's a reason you don't need to be an electrical engineer to use an iPhone. I totally understand studying kinesiology to improve shooting mechanics but then it should be distilled into something that students can learn.
Same reason it tilts me to no end when people in the fitness space use the term 'adipose tissue'. You're not writing a research paper, just say 'fat', you dork.
If somebody puts out a public statement then it is perfectly reasonable and acceptable to criticize that statement publicly. Travis's put that video out knowing full well there would be people that would disagree with it. It comes with the territory.
All these special ops types act this way they think dropping a few terrorists overseas who have no effective means of fighting back makes them beyond questioning
Couldn't agree more. The truth is often divisive. Team player types hate disagreements and choose unity over truth. If their team attacks an individual then their on board with the disagreement. Individualists deal with reality.
The first response that came to mind when i heard the statement Travis made was: "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." (Attributed to ) Albert Einstein Knowing a topic and explaining/instructing/teaching a topic are two different things. I have had several teachers/professors who understand their field of study but could not explain topics in their field to students. They could not "build" a bridge from where the students were to where they are. I grew up with two parents with chemistry degrees. One taught Chemistry and the other a Chemical Engineer. They understood how to explain chemistry at several levels based on their audience. Knowing along with being able to do something well, is not the same as being able to teach others.
Great topic to discuss Ben (my two cents): Public speech warrants public critique; private or classroom discourse requires appropriate addressing. Our aim is mutual growth, but dangerous ideas demand exposure. Beginning with gentle correction and escalating if necessary, we must dismantle perilous ideologies promptly, especially when assuming authoritative roles.
Travis Haley is a marketing personality disguised as a shooting instructor. People want Ben to be a marketing personality when he’s an actual shooting instructor. That’s why Ben is calling this stuff out, because at the end of the day, none of this bullshit is helping anyone get better at shooting. It’s all marketing.
Preach Brother Ben. I enjoy hearing your perspective; it just makes sense. “Falsehood flies, and truth comes limping after it, so that when men come to be undeceived, it is too late; the jest is over, and the tale hath had its effect“ ~Jonathan Swift.
“Praise in public, reprimand in private” is societal fuddlore. If you are putting yourself on the internet, be prepared to get criticized on the internet. No one has an onus at that point to take the conversation offline.
Remember, Greg Wong (spartanwhstever) is the guy that got arrested for dressing up to fit in the national guard during the last riot so he is a “SME” in helping the community 😂😂😂😂
If I remember rightly he was nat guard but rocked up in his own kit having not been deployed and acted the fool and got prosecuted and booted out for it.
@@jediknight1294 He wasn't a service member when he was larping with the NG during the protests. He was in a Special Operations Signals Battalion for a few year in active duty, then was Reserve for a few years, but he had left the service by the time he was randomly joining NG units.
It is good to have discussions over techniques and to hold others accountable for what they say. I also think social media is a poor place to find understanding and a post is not an end all be all on someones position or beliefs in totality. It is important as a viewer to ask clarification questions as it is as important for a poster to try and post clear and concise statements for the audience to understand, however with so many variables and levels of understanding, posts can often be misconstrued etc etc. So it is everyones responsibility (if they give a damn or want to engage) to clarify and ask questions for a better understanding of what is said, posted etc. Personally i think being open to critism is important and demonstrates a desire to listen, while I also believe we can be tactful in how we address others. It is not a community as touchy feely as people want it to be, it is a populace of people with so many different views and that is totally cool. If people have issues with other people, they will either seek to resolve or not. It is that simple. If people want to get better at shooting or whatever they will put in the time or not. Simple.
Well he was given a job after he got arrested in 2020 for essentially larping during the George Floyd protests in LA. Probably bailed out too by Haley but I don’t really know about that.
“2A Community” makes me cringe every time I hear it. I think it’s just easier for folks to address the whole industry and subculture as that, and that’s why they use that terminology. However, by virtue of the wide spectrum of types of people who own firearms, we can safely discount the term “the 2a Community” as something that means anything. Just sort of reiterating what you said. I’m glad to see the discussion continue on this. I think the average person in this corner of the internet is afraid to step on people’s dicks because they have this fear that the whole thing will come apart or something; or that if they call out the wrong “expert”, they may find themselves outcast and denounced for not passing the various litmus tests internet people present to us. I also think most people, especially the millions of new gun owners who entered the arena in the last 3 years, have no clue what’s going on; and they cling onto perceived authorities and gurus as the basis of their own personal understanding of everything firearms, gear, logic, etc. and because a lot of these new shooters are largely ‘spurgy, urban expats from Reddit, they latch onto this stuff as their own Orthodoxy because they just can’t help themselves, that’s their nature. If you’re a Haley acolyte for example, and you’re one of those people I just described, you probably feel pretty smart and expert wearing his pseudoscience hat as your own. Come full circle, this is why people get super defensive in regard to the subject of this video.
Keep speaking the truth sir and let the audience decide, that's what I'm subscribed for. Walking on eggshells, trying to accommodate everyone's feelings, and seeking artificial harmony is all poison and trash. The road to hell is paved with these "good intentions". PS. I want to know more about these high level shooter/competitors you dislike. Names aren't importnat, but more details... personality? shooting skills? their clothes? what is it?
Any open debate has to have two sides. If one party gets labeled as divisive the debate ends because both points of view are not considered and it is no longer a debate.
We live in a fucked up world when clowns on the internet call you divisive when Travis sits in a studio, baffling people with utter bullshit, and the wannabes shake their heads up and down and pretend that all those "science words" mean something. Travis doesn't even know what they mean, he's simply selling his overpriced training.
According to Ricky Bobby, when you say “with all due respect” you can say anything. Travis is good for sending people to blue collar type instructors like myself. I have had some students say the same about sage dynamics “dude just talks so much you get lost in boredom”.
Haley is the one on his high horse, gate keeping people because they don’t want to study mechanics to shoot a gun, it’s no different than some guy who owns a $6k pistol saying you shouldn’t be carrying a pistol unless you can afford a high end one. Whether it’s his Bill Nye classes or high end gear, the law of diminishing returns is the same, you aren’t going to hit that small target that much more precisely or faster once you get past a certain point. Paying for the extras is cool if you can afford it and are interested but I don’t need a PHD in body mechanics to defend myself or have a fun day at the range shooting a local competition.
Imagine not only thinking the "shooting community" is a monolith of people that believe the exact same things, but also believing that you get to decide *what* people in that community are supposed to think. If that isn't textbook narcissism on Haley's end, I don't know what is.
If a statement is made in a public venue then it should be debated and corrected in a public venue. Corrections, apologies, etc. made in private do nothing to repair the public perceptions.
I do believe that everyone should treat each others with a certain level of respect, sure. I don't believe that everyone has the same lines for what is acceptable and what is not. You, Ben, are probably not a person who I would have coffee with. But I 100% respect your skill level, and desire to help others improve. And since the only goal that I care about, is to just become better, then I would absolutely attend your class if the opportunity arose. I don't care if people don't like me, if i associate with you. I don't care to become a grandmaster, or any designation. I only care about one thing, to get better in my own personal skill level. Sometimes I will be made to "feel" bad, especially in training. But as long as your intention is to help me improve, and to reach my goal. Then I will just suck it up, and get better.
You hit the nail on the head at the end. Enough with the "muh community!!!" I'll bet the vast majority of gun owners are not people i want in my "community"
One of the reasons "community" is bandied about so much is because being an individual and valuing personal freedom above all else is actively frowned upon. It's group/herd/slave mentality and morality. There is, of course, a good reason for this plague upon our country, but that's a topic for another venue.
I like the tactic of praise in public and criticize in private, but that doesn’t seem to apply in these discussions. The elitist who think big words will convey meaning better than common terms have gone off the rails a bit. I have not seen the full interview with Haley, but if he actually thinks a person should be able to define sports science terms before they are able to carry a gun, he has lost his way. As far as a community, I agree with your sentiment Ben. Owning a gun does not make a person a member of a community. Having shared values and goals is what creates that bond.
Ben and Lucaas's primary concern being educating and preparing people is why I give their opinions a great deal of consideration before I disregard it.
Ideas are always open to criticism, especially when they're posted by public figures on public forums and intended for public consumption. UA-cam is full of bad ideas from all sorts of different communities. I'd argue it's up to the professionals within those communities to make sure good ideas are amplified and bad ideas are not. You can't do that in private.
2A is a community with sub communities. PTSG is another one, whether you feel like you’re part of it or not, you can always be a part of it because of your contributions to the space. You are part of the instructor community as well. You are who you are but you can always be more or less. Take a lead in the space with certain things or step back, you have influence and a following and are very engaging, so there are factions. It depends if you want be part of the larger group or not. Personalities clash though and how you handle it can mark if you want to increase your influence or not. I spoke to you a couple years ago after class about doing more UA-cam. You have more potential than most but some things hold you back from growing more 200k+ quite easily. Not saying that’s wrong but just my $0.02
I skipped around the John Lovell Haley interview and it was 1.5 hours of rambling buzzwords and horseshit. It sounded like a mix of stream of consciousness, MLM business seminar powerwords, vague American exceptionalism lip service, and new age self help crap.
Spartan117 I'm sure he's a cool dude, but I can't get past what he got arrested for a couple of years ago. Details of the reason for arrest are vague, but his arrest is why he came to public light for me.
The reason they're vague is because the reporting was poor. That's why they never followed up on the story. Even the guy from Task and Purpose who wrote an article was let go because he sucked. Was invited to come be a contributor for task and purpose years later. The producer said himself the writers did me dirty when they just parroted what the news said lol. The rifle was even referred to as an ARP-5....What the hell is an ARP5😂. Lot of the information wasn't factual like the riot or protest. There was neither, there were however looters. Lots and lots of looters which was the primary concern. There was also a curfew in the city so anyone caught wearing civilian clothes would have been stopped and detained regardless.
When you're over the target, they'll start attacking how you behave instead of what you say. And they believe you're behaving badly by calling out BS. That's on them.
Let's face it, some people want to be more "elite" " expert" or whatever, and one wayis to do that is gatekeeping. Language is often used. Instead of it being used to communicate effectively, it exludes. Same with gear, tradition,etc.
There are no lines to draw when criticizing ideas on internet platforms. Travis, the instructor, voiced his opinion and Ben countered. It's a non-issue. The only reason instructors have a platform to speak on is because there is a demand for instruction. Most people come on these platforms seeking information but what they mostly find is marketing nonsense. Too many fall prey to it. They don't know what they don't know. The best instructors deliver the information in a concise, easy to understand manner. Unfortunately, most people have a hard time accepting a simplified explanation for something they find challenging to do. Those people tend to fall prey to the marketing. There are guys out there who have put out no-nonsense shooting instruction and firearms related advice. Here's a list of some of them: Mike Seeklander Ben Stoeger Mike Pannone Rob Leatham Matt Pranka Joel Park Plenty of Social/UA-cam/Blogs from those guys to set anyone on the right path. Dudes may not agree on everything, but their overall approach is solid.
You crack me up. Because not only do you speak your mind, no matter what, but you also know what you’re talking about- you can back it up anything you say. I think gun people in general; although we all like to be on the same team, so to speak, and protect our rights. It’s probably still one of the most divided groups on the planet, no matter what you are principles or beliefs are there’s that incredible need and desire for everybody else to have the same beliefs as you, obviously I don’t mean you particular Ben I just mean in general…. I see it all the time in Facebook groups like Glock nation - Christ if you’re not running a stream light TLR1, a tier1concealed aiwb, and an RMR, you get your shit jumped on for being a poor. It’s like some unknown group has decided what everybody else should do and if you don’t have exactly what everybody else has, they want to deride you for it. I like your videos, I love your content. I’m not a competition shooter, so some of it is above me. I don’t always agree with what you say, and I don’t even always finish watching all the videos, but I always come back to hear what you have to say about shooting in general. Getting back to one of the points you made in the video, I’m definitely interested in taking your classes- it’s just not reality for me, I’ve taken several classes, just not with anybody you’ve ever heard of probably, my budget and my geographical location limit my choices. I’m an older guy with a family so traveling to free states to take a shooting class instead of going to my vacation home in Maine isn’t likely. I do take defensive shooting type classes and do a lot of skills and drills based shooting classes. That’s where it’s at for me. Competition shooting interests me, I think I even would be good at it. Unfortunately, I just don’t have the time to devote to it to excel at it, so I’m gonna stay in my lane and enjoy your content, take from what I can apply to my shooting needs and go from there Thanks, Signed - some guy from Mass. 😂
Competition even casually is one of the best ways to learn, even doing one or two a year you'll see a huge improvement. I know what yiu mean about the elitism, go to the local cabal near me and if yiu aren't shooting an open gun from a specific maker you aren't shit. They don't grasp why someone would want to shoot revolver or single stack.
This I agree, but they had better be able to back it up. Back then they would, today…they don’t. Since getting out long ago, I’ve meet more guys in “special operations” and “swat team guys” than I can count. When I ask them to come out to my range to practice, the excuses come at me like a MG42.
I only watched the clip that you played, so I don’t have the full perspective. I know Haley’s branding is “Thinkers Before Shooters” so I would venture to guess that what he’s implying is if you’re not willing to open your mind and take in new thoughts or expand your knowledge, then you probably shouldn’t carry a gun because it means you’re not thinking. Be that as it may, it’s still a bit of a stretch since the 2nd Amendment is not about broadening one’s horizons. It protects the rights of intellectuals as much as Luddites and and everyone in between. I also agree with your feeling of not being put in the 2A box. Being a part of the “2A community” insofar as not wanting gun laws is akin to saying I’m part of the “anti theft community”. It’s such a broad subject and one I don’t feel I need to have camaraderie with people that agree with me. I don’t like ALL republicans . I don’t like ALL Catholics. Why the hell would i like everyone that believes in the 2nd Amendment?
The community is full of people trying to take your money. From training to products which includes guns. The 2011 game is full of straight up hacks. They get elevated by people who have no basic mechanical understanding. If you call out or point out the nonsense you get ambushed by the same uneducated maroons. Take Skipz Gunz for example. The guy doesn’t compete, doesn’t train, and really doesn’t shoot much aside from showing off the high dollar guns he builds. Convincing people they have to have things like gas peddles, porting, and more. Not mentioning the stuff not being legal in USPSA. I am all for these conversations
Gsd pedals are nice to have for certain techniques, porting is nice to have to make a high pressure calibre more controllable, they aren't needed they are luxuries. Most people can't outshoot the hi point. They can't put cycle it, they aren't more accurate than it is in a rest. Do the ergos help sure but that's not the point.
@@jediknight1294I will agree to disagree. The stuff is used to up charge people on work they are having done. Vast majority of pistols receiving these “upgrades” are 9mm.. Those selling these “upgrades” never mention the stuff not being legal for USPSA aside from open devision. Specially holsters needed.. If you already have solid fundamentals then I get it.. the stuff is being marketed to new shooters is a problem to me.
@@PnP-td1mt the problem is for carry guns they make sense, for making a compact more shoot able makes sense. Comp, dot, done. If USPSA wanted to be relevant it would have kept production as production, stock guns, on the list 15 round mags. The bullshit of here kid your first match go shoot your stock Glock in one of the most equipment heavy divisions in the sport because we refuse to standardise with IPSC because 'reloads are a skill' in a division designed to be a playing field for plastic cheap 15 to 19 round guns was just stupid. As for them not being legal. In USPSA, nobody cares, the numbers don't lie, not enough people shoot USPSA that it actually matters and USPSA needs to actually look at it's rulesajd it's outreach and promotion to make it relevant to new shooters and manufacturers again. Im an IPSC shooter, have been for years (mainly because I'm not full time in the US.) and the manufacturers don't care what's legal because... They don't have to. It's not relevant to sales numbers if their new concealed carry gun isn't legal in IDPA/USPSA, the sports are pretty much useless to them from an advertising pov and the rules haven't been relevant to new handgun design for at least a decade. Carry optics could have changed that but it couldn't decide what it wanted to be, production optics or a reflection of and a place for what was becoming the new standard of carry guns. It should have been something along the lines of Flashlights legal, Slide mount dot, comps legal. A place for the guns that people like Lucas, Chuck et Al have been pushing for for the last 10 years and HEAVILY market it to that consumer base. Pay some of the UA-cam names to shoot a few comps, appeal to the guys who are looking at that sort of content and give them a place to use those setups. If USPSA want manufacturers to care and want the wider shooting community to engage they need to market properly, they need to USE the Internet, they need to use the fact that things like the Wick films have made pistol skills cool and exciting again. They need to support things like AIPSC, they need to aggressively market the sport and hell, given the amount of people working on the ability to use a co2 recoil system firearm shaped object with a VR setup in a gun game enviroment, throw some money at one of the devs/companies making those conversion kits/sensor kits for VR And have USPSA clasifiers accessible to those people. Oh and actually review the division rules and make them work because currently they don't seem to. Revolver, 8 round Minor has taken a huge bite out of its appeal to revolver shooters and it's become the new standard need so a niche gun in an already niche division, that's expensive and not very interesting is the gun you need. Production, that's been a mess for years and the 'well ROs can't tell so change it' creep has turned it into a stealth race gun division with a need for lots of mags. Having Production Optics I can see making sense Limited is fine as it is for the most part. Having Limited Optics as a seperate division I'm not so sure on given that Carry optics and Production Optics seem to cover the two sides of slide mounted dots fairly well. Single stack, it's a place for 1911 fans to play, allowing other SAO single stack 8 round 45s or 10rd 9mms wouldn't hurt and let's be honest, USPSA doesn't get anywhere near enough support from the 1911 builders to warrant keeping out things like a Sig p210. Open and PCC are both fine, though PCC needs to have some things done in the start positions to reassure and remind match directors and stage designers interesting start positions are allowed. But until USPSA actually sort out their marketing and justify to the industry why what it's ruleset says should matter to companies, it won't matter.
@@jediknight1294no one is reading that nonsense. Specially after the first few lines where you try to justify the snake oil mods for everyday carry., Have you ever taken a defensive pistol class and done so with a ported or comp’d gun? My guess is no you haven’t or we wouldn’t be having this discussion. Fire a few shots with a comp’d or ported pistol compressed at your side and tell me how quickly you ditch the ports/comps. That’s assuming you don’t have reliability issues due to the comp. I get this stuff being on an open devision race gun where you are looking for every single advantage. Nothing you will say will change my position on this. Your distain for USPSA simply tells me you don’t complete. Which is fine. It doesn’t look like you train much either.
The "gun community" reminds me so much of any community that sells snake oil. Naturally there can't be much over discourse and debate because speaking about snake oil out in the open will naturally expose its many holes/defects. You have to consider that many of the "instructors" go train with the Staple/Industry or trendy instructors. Since often times they are validating their instruction ability on the lineage in which they're trained, naturally they can't criticize that lineage. It's like well, I spent $2,000 training with (insert famous instructor), I have pictures of me and him all over my social media, this has become my new personality. The criticism of him can't be real right? Let me check in with the other 7 dudes that took the same $2,000 class with me. Oh yeah, they totally agree with me that our famous instructor is always right, those criticizing him are obviously just haters. They hate his excellence and consequently my excellence too, because I'm his little training baby.
2 THINGS: The gun community is FULL of EGO. It is the one thing I hate about it and the one thing that keeps potential enthusiast out. Second: People that use acromyms all the time are not good communicators. I stopped a business meeting once for marketing. It had numerous people making big bucks and the speaker was using a ton of acromyms. I started writing them down then stopped the meeting and went around the room asking the participants what the acronyms meant. Many of them could not answer. People use acronyms to make themselves sound smart, and the gun community is LOADED with acromyms. New shooters don't understand that garbage and they are not going to ask because they don't want to look stupid. The more people we have in the gun community the better. The 2nd is the line in the sand. We need each other. Drop the egos and just be nice.
I agree 💯 with you Ben. I respect what Travis did in Iraq all those years ago but frankly he is just gate keeping. He’s basically saying if you are not as cool and scientific as him you shouldn’t carry a gun. It comes off as very elitist and thats bullshit.
I like that Ben calls out the BS. The consumer can sort out what they think from the discussion. Haley may have a good class if your interested in how to deep dive the science side of things but that’s not necessary to succeed at a high level of shooting and him and his followers trying to say if you don’t get curious about the fine details your not worthy of of carrying a gun is divisive and judgmental itself and that’s fine. An opposing viewpoint to him is not a problem. Discussions are how better things are made and things progress, otherwise we would all still be shooting one handed, wearing 5.11 fishing vests, and complaining about sear resets.
Keep calling out bullshit! I find it quite admirable. If people want to keep things"private" why post on social media at all if you're not willing to take all sorts of feedback.
I agree with Ben point of view. “If we are all on the same ship and there is people making hols at the bottom of it, I’m going to say something .When will people see the bullshit “
Great analogy. I run into “hey he is into guns too, I’ll introduce you two”. Dude has a bump stock and shoots up old TVs and leaves them in the bush. I am not in that community nor want to be. Stealing your analogy.
It's completely ego driven. Like saying "I have aquired a set of knowledge. I hereby declare my level of knowledge to be the new standard and anyone with less knowledge doesn't deserve their firearm." You basically artificially create a portion of people you are superior to so you can get your rocks off talking down to them and dismissing them. I first saw this needy technique applied in 6th grade. Lol. HAS to be addressed puplicly.
If Mr Haley takes affront to critical reaction of his public statements then he must feel he’s beyond criticism … and that doesn’t seem terribly conducive to learning and improvement. So many of these SF guys talk a good game when it comes to “free speech”, not being a “snowflake”, constant growth, and gains (etc etc) … but bristle when those concepts are staring them in the face.
Most ideas people come up with are wrong, so they must be challenged. Criticize as harshly as one likes, with respect. Challenging ideas is how we find the truth.
Ideas like what Haley put out there are dangerous and need to be called out publicly. I don't think it is disrespectful to publicly disagree with an idea like that. It needs to happen that way so everyone involved can see that disagreement as part of the conversation.
Everything has to be an "identity" these days, I swear. My "community" is me and my 4-5 range buddies. That's it. Most of the other folks I meet at the range are usually nice and I don't mind them, but other than a friendly chat after I'm done or when someone's interested in the gun I brought, I don't interact with them.
Ideas HAVE to be criticized publicly, otherwise the popular stuff takes hold of the majority and the popular stuff is seldom the correct stuff. People in general are terrible at introspection and questioning their worlds so people who are have a responsibility to curate the right from the wrong and the truths from the lies to keep ego from making up the truth. I think there’s a time and place for kinesiology and physiology, but it’s usually for the people at the upper limit of sport to find small advantages when a ten thousandth of a second matters. That doesn’t matter for 99.9% of shooters. Science generally belongs in a lab, not on a range.
I'm getting tired of people who are 'experts' telling us normies we need to learn more stuff or we shouldn't have our rights. We have rights, you either support them or you don't. If someone said 'you need to know the proper use of adjectives, nouns and verbs or you shouldn't be able to say things in public' I'm sure everyone would agree with them . . .right?
When I see “influencers” or “instructors” like Travis say these things I start to lose respect. I try to not care because sometimes I feel we care too much about what people say on the internet but I run his chest rigs and honestly hearing these statements, makes me question it just out of principle.
"... is it too much to ask ... when everyone's goals are the same?" Edit to add "Never mind - I wrote my comment before getting to the end of Ben's video. Yeah - everyone's goals aren't the same."
Like you, I don’t consider the “gun community” to be a very real thing. About 40% of all Americans own a firearm so the threshold cannot simply be owning a firearm. Same reason why owning a nice computer or sports car doesn’t automatically make you part of the pc gamer or sports car community. There are micro communities like competitive shooting and tactical larp. I consider myself part of both because I actually care about shooting competitively and “Prep.” I’d also say calling out teachers in the industry is objectively a good thing. It’s not disrespectful to say somebody is wrong or dumb for making a wrong or dumb statement. It’s harsh, but ultimately a mature person should be able to take that challenge and either defend their position or simply ignore the callout and move on with their life.
Haley just posted a video on grip. I honestly don’t know how people can digest his unnecessary word salad. The concept behind his grip might not be terrible, but there’s too much “trying to sound smart” around it that i can’t take him seriously. Just come out and tell us the why. Save me some time, Travis.
Wasn’t Spartan117 that dude that played dress up and tried to join a Mil unit while a riot as going on somewhere a couple of years ago? Didn’t he go dark on social media for along time or go to jail?
He was national guard but he tried to roll up and join a group of guard tm deployed to a riot when he hadn't been called up and wasn't supposed to be there having decided to go to the thing kitted up if I remember rightly. Guy was a great resource for kit builds for airsoft but a massive tool.
@@Joe-zo6mw as far as I heard the story he was still guard and that got him Booted out. But yeah definitely a tool, the fact he's somehow still credible is amazing
Everything you said was spot on. It's Soacial Media.. key fucking word is "Social" Just like back a few years ago. Myself and a few others called out Lucas for fidget fucki g with his videos. Edits and speeding up his videos. Zero aggressive anything towards him. He never showed his hits and the cinema style videos, although super awesome. Eventually, it didn't paint a good picture for him. After the last call out, he started releasing " Unedited" content, and it started to show that he was, in fact, human and was not robotic and flawless. Was he trying to screw with people on his video tweaking? No, I don't believe he was. It was part of the style in which he was filming content, and it just worked against him back then. What is batshit are the gun reviewers who are paid 5 to 10k to give good review? Oh, what about all the Seal Team 47 guys who claim they are the bees' knees and have channels showing how cool they and you must look. The fuckn posturing is retarded. Eventually, folks with a brain will gravitate towards channels like Ben's because it's more direct and comes with no B.S.
For the record, I’ve never sped up any videos. Haven’t needed too. And nobody who claimed I did could ever prove it, because there’s nothing to prove. I waited a long time for anyone to provide proof and walk people through it and it never happened. The One Takes and longer form content was for a more specific reason and not because of you guys complaining about how fast I am. If you have proof of my older videos being “doctored”, please present it. I’m sure lots of people would love to see that and you’ll get a lot of views. -Lucas
@TREXARMS Meanwhile, long ago. You did respond and said this. ua-cam.com/video/x5f8AUQBaXI/v-deo.htmlsi=qfTfIGVr1yZTshZu How was this not a direct response to the chatter? Well, we all know you are fast, and it was never the point.
The dude can shoot and in civilian life it works. Running around like that is great practice, but is not realistic. Definitely do it, but remember that when people are shooting back, a speed reload will cost you some blood, get some cover and let your teammates keep their heads down. I have respect for Trex. It be great to see one of these guys run the same drills with sims or paint and all the targets shoot first, be over in 3 seconds.
@@lowbudge007matches are great, they are a good high stress enviroment however there are things you have to do differently when rounds are coming the other way. Lucas has a really really good grasp on technique, he's a very good shooter. However he like all of us will do things that you can't do when being shot at. You have to take less perfect shits, you have to use positions that don't allow perfect footwork, you have to move differently. Being shot at changes how you have to respond. That doesn't mean someone whose a fast target shooter can't respond well and make hits whilst being shot at its just an acknowledgement that the shooting part isn't the only thing that matters. Lucas in a situation with sims coming in as he's engaging targets I suspect would do pretty well because he has the aggressive action and movement side down. Would be interesting to see Ben and Lucas do that. Show how incoming rounds change the way a stage is shot. Not just from a cover and concealment pov but what shots you take, what level of aiming is acceptable and what time you take to engage targets.
Not saying its necessary, but if you criticize in private, at least at first, you do give the opportunity to do better and save face. If they don't or won't, you have to do it in public.
There’s a “2A community” in the sense that doctors are a “community” or fishermen are a “community” or gym goers are a “community” or Republicans are a “community.” Having a common interest or a few common beliefs in common isn’t a de facto fraternity. People engage with shooting and the shooting sports for wildly different reasons, and there’s nothing in nature that says you must respect the validity of those reasons or the personalities behind them. There are 2A advocates and hobbyists and trainers and competitors who deserve avoidance at best and public ridicule at worst.
Ironically for whatever reason I watched Lovell's podcast with Trex this morning. Then it suggested I watch the one with Travis. He said that and I am like here this elitist blowhard goes again. Guys like him and Tim Kennedy believe in the 2A but, only if your mindset is exactly like theirs. I think if Travis would be completely honest he would say, unless you attend my class you shouldn't carry a gun. Kudos for you and Trex standing up against this BS. You have earned a sub.
The discussion is valuable but your style is more blunt and cutting, which serves the purpose of attracting attention. Accountability is important to improvement. I’ve been sold the snake oil many times. I think there is room to discuss differences in more cordial ways - but you’re getting some people to think and some people to dig in deep. What difference does it make? Probably not much.
I think it's only an issue if you exaggerate the severity of what someone said or turn it into a bigger deal than it should be. Like trying to get everyone to completely turn against someone for a minor comment. This happens a lot with internet drama, which I think is why there is such a backlash to causing drama.
The same free speech that applies to him being able to say, applies to you being able to criticize it. If you're going to say something publicly you better be ready to defend it publicly.
It is very obvious you're primarily motivated to assist shooters to improve their performance. Unlike many others who spend too much effort marketing themselves - hyping their training w silly buzzwords, demonstrating their own skills and always selling their "brand" !!!
I appreciate you taking the time to breakdown my comment. While we may not agree on everything its a good discussion to have. Me personally i hate seeing respected people who are both doing good trying to destroy each other when i know they both have important things to share.
I think Haley way overcomplicates his teaching methodology just based on the videos I've seen. Furthermore, his training company is as much a gear brand as anything else, and needs to be viewed as such. I teach US history at the college freshmen level, and the more I overcomplicate the basic principles I have to cover, the less my students understand it. Haley fluffs up his teaching with big words and it overcomplicates what should be simplified as, "put dot on target, shoot fast, correct your method if not meeting expectations."
I'm curious what caused Travis to say this...I'm a proponent of people carrying, but working at the oldest and one of the largest ranges in my state has made me realize...most people are pretty cheeks at shooting. I've always considered myself an intermediate shooter until I started working here, and realized that my perception is pretty warped thanks to the internet. About the only time I find myself really competing with people is when we host a competition, and even then, outside of the open gun shooters...I would say there was a handful of people that I was chasing and only a couple of guys who I felt like I was really struggling to keep up with (with a new gun that I haven't had a chance to train with due to the fact I messed it up). PS. I think that the gun community as a whole has a ton of sub-communities. Some people stay inside of one of these sub-communities, and some of us flex between them.
One of the odd things iv noticed is those of us who train or compete are usually sure we are worse than we actually arenandnthisenwhondontnthink they are better than they actually are
Calling out perceived BS isn’t being divisive….primarily what ppl do on social media, the problem is ppl aren’t used to see it in “the gun industry” mostly because instructors are too scared to call out other instructors for fear of losing potential customers or being proved wrong themselves. It’s precisely why instructors not showing their competence online outside of their classes shouldn’t be followed/listened to.
Question do you know if his methods produce positive results. Have you spoken with any of his students. I think it would be great for the community if you took one of his classes.
It does not. I was one of his student when I was in my early shooting years. Went to his class, took his bet for 100% off his next class, out shot both him and Nate in their own drill (the diet El Prez), my dude ignored the bet and I am still salty years later lol. But in all seriousness, I went out of his class exactly the same way I went in.
His classes years ago were helpful, his classes now... I'd not take. It's very much a case of there's not a massive amount yiu learn from it you can take and practice on your own and improve on. VS say Ben or Joel where the class improves and informs future practice.
I am so sick of the go along to get along attitude. Fuck that. The idea that the most influential shooting gurus should back-channel criticisms is stupid. If you and Haley had a private phone conversation where you told him what you thought, what would that change? Nothing. You'd disagree, the video would stay up, and we'd all continue to be exposed to that bullshit without a dissenting voice. Public discussion, even contentious discussion, is ultimately a good thing. We have got to stop being afraid to call out bullshit and those who support and disseminate it. Haley's attitudes and ideas are fucked up, no other way to put it. I want him and those like him to speak out, so we know who they are. But I also want those like you and Lucas to PUBLICALLY call them out so we can all see the opposing view. Expecting, or wanting, all such disagreements to be private is anathema to a free and open exchange of ideas. It's messy and makes some people feel bad but ultimately democracy is messy. That doesn't make it bad. Never stop Ben. Never.
Hey, I am relatively new to the gun/shooting community and I have noticed the gatekeeping that happens when meeting or talking about anything guns. It gets even crazier when people are or think they are “instructors”. I agree with your points and we should call out each other when we say stupid or crazy 💩. Keep real like always and God bless.
Ok, old timer. Can’t speak up too much because of “reasons”. I guess thank you for providing a little true to my statement. 😂 I just started shooting in USPSA carry optic class, and I have already see improvement in 6 matches I have shoot in. C class working towards B class. You need a Master or pHD degree to know terms of physiology to be a shooter…I don’t think so.
@ben, what kind of careers do your students usually come from? Travis exudes a lot of midwit elitism. Smart enough to know big words, not smart enough to know not to use them. His classes seem to attract people with slightly above average intelligence who love rules and procedures. Lots of pilots, cops, military, gov employees, nurses that want to signal that they’re smart. But almost no one from “professional” or creative. I’d guess you probably appeal more to this second group who doesn’t need Haley to signal for them.
People post clips like this out of context because they want attention, influencers need content, and people lack self confidence…. The top shooters and trainers in the world don’t do this. They focus on training and building up rather than tearing down.
This is the type of troll post I enjoy
This line of thinking is the reason why Zero has a career.
Who are the top trainers in the world? I don't have access to them where I live in South Africa, I've taught myself to shoot pistol from UA-cam and online stuff. I've tested out just about every technique there is out there from all the tacticool and competitive dudes, the stuff that Ben is teaching is the stuff that I've had the most success with. I'm making big strides now in my training and competitive shooting. From what I know, he's the best. I'm sure there's a lot of guys and techniques out there that I don't know. So I'd really appreciate it if you could educate me, if there's someone better I'd really like to find out. But if they don't do virual training it's not gonna help me much unless they're willing to come to South Africa
“Top shooters and trainers don’t do this.”
You must be new here, but I’m pretty sure Ben meets the definition of “top” in both of those categories.
As for taking clips of context, Ben and Matt did a full discussion with Travis about multiple topics and one of them was Travis’ insistence on using scientific words and other such gimmicks that don’t transfer over to making people shoot better. Go watch the episode for yourself, but most people agree that it didn’t go well for Travis.
The idea that if you don't accept that his system is right you shouldn't carry a firearm is an idiotic statement.
Training and improving should be a central part of carrying a firearm but doing it only in a prescribed way is moronic.
The idea that we can't critique training methodologies is whar allows bullshit to be taught.
I remember when Travis stated because his wife is a doctor, that he knew everything in the medical field lmao. Ben said He didn't know that being a medical field expert was sexually transmitted lmao
I have a phd in developmental psycholinguistics. Using scientific terms with non-scientists is elitist and inhibits mutual understanding of the topic discussed. I’ll take common language everyday that promotes easy, efficient understanding.
Yp. Science is incredibly important but there's a separation between the part where you discover new information and the sciency terms can make sense and the part where you disseminate the results. There's a reason you don't need to be an electrical engineer to use an iPhone. I totally understand studying kinesiology to improve shooting mechanics but then it should be distilled into something that students can learn.
A geek says what
Same reason it tilts me to no end when people in the fitness space use the term 'adipose tissue'. You're not writing a research paper, just say 'fat', you dork.
In clinical practice I intentionally use layman's terms as I've always thought jargon was elitist. I appreciate your professional insight.
If somebody puts out a public statement then it is perfectly reasonable and acceptable to criticize that statement publicly. Travis's put that video out knowing full well there would be people that would disagree with it. It comes with the territory.
Is that a long-winded way of saying “click-bait?”
I like divisiveness when it divides truth and wisdom from bullshit 👍🏼😎.
I like echo chambers for that same reason
Well said
Wow, I didn’t realize Haley thought so highly of himself as a gatekeeper in this “community”. But we are the “divisive” ones? What an egomaniac!
All these special ops types act this way they think dropping a few terrorists overseas who have no effective means of fighting back makes them beyond questioning
You guys are both wrong. He comes off this way but isn’t what you think.
@@Rubeless when he tells me I shouldn’t carry a gun because I don’t use the terms he approved of????
@@thepracticalriflemanwhen has he ever said that?
@@arighteousname5882 did you watch the video?
Couldn't agree more. The truth is often divisive. Team player types hate disagreements and choose unity over truth. If their team attacks an individual then their on board with the disagreement. Individualists deal with reality.
Ben, you’re awesome & give zero F’s. 😂 Common sense is not so common any more.
Important to note that Spartan117GW (Gregory Wong) is employed by Haley.. lol
And he also got arrested for impersonating a national guardsman and carrying an “assault weapon” in California years back. Haley got him out of it
Your videos have made me shoot better 100%. Short instructional videos are great. Thank you Ben !
Take a class, it will elevate your skills.
The first response that came to mind when i heard the statement Travis made was:
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."
(Attributed to ) Albert Einstein
Knowing a topic and explaining/instructing/teaching a topic are two different things. I have had several teachers/professors who understand their field of study but could not explain topics in their field to students. They could not "build" a bridge from where the students were to where they are.
I grew up with two parents with chemistry degrees. One taught Chemistry and the other a Chemical Engineer. They understood how to explain chemistry at several levels based on their audience.
Knowing along with being able to do something well, is not the same as being able to teach others.
Most professors don't actually teach, it's research first and it shows.
Great topic to discuss Ben (my two cents): Public speech warrants public critique; private or classroom discourse requires appropriate addressing. Our aim is mutual growth, but dangerous ideas demand exposure. Beginning with gentle correction and escalating if necessary, we must dismantle perilous ideologies promptly, especially when assuming authoritative roles.
I will literally repeat this until it’s noticed.
TRAVIS SAID “My director of training is a reproductive sports physiologist.”
For real? I mean, I wouldn't be surprised, but damn lol
These kinds of things Haley says feels like gatekeeping hahaha
I like dialogue like this because it’s frank and honest
Travis Haley is a marketing personality disguised as a shooting instructor. People want Ben to be a marketing personality when he’s an actual shooting instructor. That’s why Ben is calling this stuff out, because at the end of the day, none of this bullshit is helping anyone get better at shooting. It’s all marketing.
Preach Brother Ben. I enjoy hearing your perspective; it just makes sense.
“Falsehood flies, and truth comes limping after it, so that when men come to be undeceived, it is too late; the jest is over, and the tale hath had its effect“ ~Jonathan Swift.
Division fuels dialogue
Dialogue fuels awakenings
Awakenings fuels change
Change fuels division
Divisive because you are questioning those deemed by the “community” as infallible. Thats what they mean
“Praise in public, reprimand in private” is societal fuddlore.
If you are putting yourself on the internet, be prepared to get criticized on the internet. No one has an onus at that point to take the conversation offline.
Remember, Greg Wong (spartanwhstever) is the guy that got arrested for dressing up to fit in the national guard during the last riot so he is a “SME” in helping the community 😂😂😂😂
If I remember rightly he was nat guard but rocked up in his own kit having not been deployed and acted the fool and got prosecuted and booted out for it.
@@jediknight1294 He wasn't a service member when he was larping with the NG during the protests. He was in a Special Operations Signals Battalion for a few year in active duty, then was Reserve for a few years, but he had left the service by the time he was randomly joining NG units.
It is good to have discussions over techniques and to hold others accountable for what they say. I also think social media is a poor place to find understanding and a post is not an end all be all on someones position or beliefs in totality. It is important as a viewer to ask clarification questions as it is as important for a poster to try and post clear and concise statements for the audience to understand, however with so many variables and levels of understanding, posts can often be misconstrued etc etc. So it is everyones responsibility (if they give a damn or want to engage) to clarify and ask questions for a better understanding of what is said, posted etc. Personally i think being open to critism is important and demonstrates a desire to listen, while I also believe we can be tactful in how we address others. It is not a community as touchy feely as people want it to be, it is a populace of people with so many different views and that is totally cool. If people have issues with other people, they will either seek to resolve or not. It is that simple. If people want to get better at shooting or whatever they will put in the time or not. Simple.
It's possible to be gracious in the midst of disagreement without compromising your principles. Be nice to people but don't let them shit on you.
That Spartan117 dude is one of the biggest Haley simps I’ve ever seen. I’m not surprised he got offended by you and Lucas.
Well he was given a job after he got arrested in 2020 for essentially larping during the George Floyd protests in LA. Probably bailed out too by Haley but I don’t really know about that.
I think town square critique works well especially for “influencers”
“2A Community” makes me cringe every time I hear it. I think it’s just easier for folks to address the whole industry and subculture as that, and that’s why they use that terminology. However, by virtue of the wide spectrum of types of people who own firearms, we can safely discount the term “the 2a Community” as something that means anything. Just sort of reiterating what you said.
I’m glad to see the discussion continue on this. I think the average person in this corner of the internet is afraid to step on people’s dicks because they have this fear that the whole thing will come apart or something; or that if they call out the wrong “expert”, they may find themselves outcast and denounced for not passing the various litmus tests internet people present to us. I also think most people, especially the millions of new gun owners who entered the arena in the last 3 years, have no clue what’s going on; and they cling onto perceived authorities and gurus as the basis of their own personal understanding of everything firearms, gear, logic, etc. and because a lot of these new shooters are largely ‘spurgy, urban expats from Reddit, they latch onto this stuff as their own Orthodoxy because they just can’t help themselves, that’s their nature. If you’re a Haley acolyte for example, and you’re one of those people I just described, you probably feel pretty smart and expert wearing his pseudoscience hat as your own. Come full circle, this is why people get super defensive in regard to the subject of this video.
Keep speaking the truth sir and let the audience decide, that's what I'm subscribed for. Walking on eggshells, trying to accommodate everyone's feelings, and seeking artificial harmony is all poison and trash. The road to hell is paved with these "good intentions".
PS. I want to know more about these high level shooter/competitors you dislike. Names aren't importnat, but more details... personality? shooting skills? their clothes? what is it?
Any open debate has to have two sides. If one party gets labeled as divisive the debate ends because both points of view are not considered and it is no longer a debate.
This is all drama like the staccato purchase. I watched the first season of the real world as a kid, same thing.
We live in a fucked up world when clowns on the internet call you divisive when Travis sits in a studio, baffling people with utter bullshit, and the wannabes shake their heads up and down and pretend that all those "science words" mean something. Travis doesn't even know what they mean, he's simply selling his overpriced training.
With all due respect to all the instructors around, I think these type of conversations will benefit all ultimately.
According to Ricky Bobby, when you say “with all due respect” you can say anything.
Travis is good for sending people to blue collar type instructors like myself. I have had some students say the same about sage dynamics “dude just talks so much you get lost in boredom”.
Haley is the one on his high horse, gate keeping people because they don’t want to study mechanics to shoot a gun, it’s no different than some guy who owns a $6k pistol saying you shouldn’t be carrying a pistol unless you can afford a high end one. Whether it’s his Bill Nye classes or high end gear, the law of diminishing returns is the same, you aren’t going to hit that small target that much more precisely or faster once you get past a certain point. Paying for the extras is cool if you can afford it and are interested but I don’t need a PHD in body mechanics to defend myself or have a fun day at the range shooting a local competition.
Imagine not only thinking the "shooting community" is a monolith of people that believe the exact same things, but also believing that you get to decide *what* people in that community are supposed to think. If that isn't textbook narcissism on Haley's end, I don't know what is.
If a statement is made in a public venue then it should be debated and corrected in a public venue. Corrections, apologies, etc. made in private do nothing to repair the public perceptions.
I do believe that everyone should treat each others with a certain level of respect, sure. I don't believe that everyone has the same lines for what is acceptable and what is not. You, Ben, are probably not a person who I would have coffee with. But I 100% respect your skill level, and desire to help others improve. And since the only goal that I care about, is to just become better, then I would absolutely attend your class if the opportunity arose. I don't care if people don't like me, if i associate with you. I don't care to become a grandmaster, or any designation. I only care about one thing, to get better in my own personal skill level. Sometimes I will be made to "feel" bad, especially in training. But as long as your intention is to help me improve, and to reach my goal. Then I will just suck it up, and get better.
You hit the nail on the head at the end.
Enough with the "muh community!!!"
I'll bet the vast majority of gun owners are not people i want in my "community"
One of the reasons "community" is bandied about so much is because being an individual and valuing personal freedom above all else is actively frowned upon. It's group/herd/slave mentality and morality. There is, of course, a good reason for this plague upon our country, but that's a topic for another venue.
If a self proclaimed Subject Matter Expert can’t explain a topic to a 5 year old in 30 secs, they aren’t really an SME on that topic.
Was it Einstein that said if you can't explain it simply then you don't know it well enough.
@@hopewilliams6705 Yeah that might be where it originated from.
I love watching you go after these guys publicly when they cross you. How did Sleven get a free pass? You must’ve been feeling charitable.
I like the tactic of praise in public and criticize in private, but that doesn’t seem to apply in these discussions. The elitist who think big words will convey meaning better than common terms have gone off the rails a bit. I have not seen the full interview with Haley, but if he actually thinks a person should be able to define sports science terms before they are able to carry a gun, he has lost his way.
As far as a community, I agree with your sentiment Ben. Owning a gun does not make a person a member of a community. Having shared values and goals is what creates that bond.
If they say it in public, you can call them out in public.
Ben and Lucaas's primary concern being educating and preparing people is why I give their opinions a great deal of consideration before I disregard it.
Ideas are always open to criticism, especially when they're posted by public figures on public forums and intended for public consumption. UA-cam is full of bad ideas from all sorts of different communities. I'd argue it's up to the professionals within those communities to make sure good ideas are amplified and bad ideas are not. You can't do that in private.
2A is a community with sub communities. PTSG is another one, whether you feel like you’re part of it or not, you can always be a part of it because of your contributions to the space. You are part of the instructor community as well.
You are who you are but you can always be more or less. Take a lead in the space with certain things or step back, you have influence and a following and are very engaging, so there are factions. It depends if you want be part of the larger group or not. Personalities clash though and how you handle it can mark if you want to increase your influence or not. I spoke to you a couple years ago after class about doing more UA-cam. You have more potential than most but some things hold you back from growing more 200k+ quite easily. Not saying that’s wrong but just my $0.02
I skipped around the John Lovell Haley interview and it was 1.5 hours of rambling buzzwords and horseshit. It sounded like a mix of stream of consciousness, MLM business seminar powerwords, vague American exceptionalism lip service, and new age self help crap.
Spartan117 I'm sure he's a cool dude, but I can't get past what he got arrested for a couple of years ago. Details of the reason for arrest are vague, but his arrest is why he came to public light for me.
The reason they're vague is because the reporting was poor. That's why they never followed up on the story. Even the guy from Task and Purpose who wrote an article was let go because he sucked. Was invited to come be a contributor for task and purpose years later. The producer said himself the writers did me dirty when they just parroted what the news said lol. The rifle was even referred to as an ARP-5....What the hell is an ARP5😂. Lot of the information wasn't factual like the riot or protest. There was neither, there were however looters. Lots and lots of looters which was the primary concern. There was also a curfew in the city so anyone caught wearing civilian clothes would have been stopped and detained regardless.
When you're over the target, they'll start attacking how you behave instead of what you say. And they believe you're behaving badly by calling out BS. That's on them.
Travis is trying to out talk his shooting/instructor abilities! Patently crazy is right!
Let's face it, some people want to be more "elite" " expert" or whatever, and one wayis to do that is gatekeeping. Language is often used. Instead of it being used to communicate effectively, it exludes. Same with gear, tradition,etc.
“Be smarter” know more words or “don’t carry” is ridiculous
There are no lines to draw when criticizing ideas on internet platforms.
Travis, the instructor, voiced his opinion and Ben countered. It's a non-issue.
The only reason instructors have a platform to speak on is because there is a demand for instruction.
Most people come on these platforms seeking information but what they mostly find is marketing nonsense. Too many fall prey to it. They don't know what they don't know.
The best instructors deliver the information in a concise, easy to understand manner. Unfortunately, most people have a hard time accepting a simplified explanation for something they find challenging to do. Those people tend to fall prey to the marketing.
There are guys out there who have put out no-nonsense shooting instruction and firearms related advice.
Here's a list of some of them:
Mike Seeklander
Ben Stoeger
Mike Pannone
Rob Leatham
Matt Pranka
Joel Park
Plenty of Social/UA-cam/Blogs from those guys to set anyone on the right path. Dudes may not agree on everything, but their overall approach is solid.
I’m on that list
You crack me up. Because not only do you speak your mind, no matter what, but you also know what you’re talking about- you can back it up anything you say.
I think gun people in general; although we all like to be on the same team, so to speak, and protect our rights. It’s probably still one of the most divided groups on the planet, no matter what you are principles or beliefs are there’s that incredible need and desire for everybody else to have the same beliefs as you, obviously I don’t mean you particular Ben I just mean in general….
I see it all the time in Facebook groups like Glock nation - Christ if you’re not running a stream light TLR1, a tier1concealed aiwb, and an RMR, you get your shit jumped on for being a poor. It’s like some unknown group has decided what everybody else should do and if you don’t have exactly what everybody else has, they want to deride you for it.
I like your videos, I love your content. I’m not a competition shooter, so some of it is above me. I don’t always agree with what you say, and I don’t even always finish watching all the videos, but I always come back to hear what you have to say about shooting in general.
Getting back to one of the points you made in the video, I’m definitely interested in taking your classes- it’s just not reality for me, I’ve taken several classes, just not with anybody you’ve ever heard of probably, my budget and my geographical location limit my choices. I’m an older guy with a family so traveling to free states to take a shooting class instead of going to my vacation home in Maine isn’t likely. I do take defensive shooting type classes and do a lot of skills and drills based shooting classes. That’s where it’s at for me. Competition shooting interests me, I think I even would be good at it. Unfortunately, I just don’t have the time to devote to it to excel at it, so I’m gonna stay in my lane and enjoy your content, take from what I can apply to my shooting needs and go from there
Thanks,
Signed - some guy from Mass.
😂
Competition even casually is one of the best ways to learn, even doing one or two a year you'll see a huge improvement.
I know what yiu mean about the elitism, go to the local cabal near me and if yiu aren't shooting an open gun from a specific maker you aren't shit. They don't grasp why someone would want to shoot revolver or single stack.
Back in the day, when real men ran our society, straight-up, brutal honesty was not only accepted but appreciated.
This I agree, but they had better be able to back it up. Back then they would, today…they don’t.
Since getting out long ago, I’ve meet more guys in “special operations” and “swat team guys” than I can count. When I ask them to come out to my range to practice, the excuses come at me like a MG42.
I only watched the clip that you played, so I don’t have the full perspective. I know Haley’s branding is “Thinkers Before Shooters” so I would venture to guess that what he’s implying is if you’re not willing to open your mind and take in new thoughts or expand your knowledge, then you probably shouldn’t carry a gun because it means you’re not thinking.
Be that as it may, it’s still a bit of a stretch since the 2nd Amendment is not about broadening one’s horizons. It protects the rights of intellectuals as much as Luddites and and everyone in between.
I also agree with your feeling of not being put in the 2A box. Being a part of the “2A community” insofar as not wanting gun laws is akin to saying I’m part of the “anti theft community”. It’s such a broad subject and one I don’t feel I need to have camaraderie with people that agree with me. I don’t like ALL republicans . I don’t like ALL Catholics. Why the hell would i like everyone that believes in the 2nd Amendment?
Ben is like Sylvester Stallone running with a railroad tie in the snow while this guy is Dolf Lundgren in a Soviet lab.
The community is full of people trying to take your money.
From training to products which includes guns.
The 2011 game is full of straight up hacks. They get elevated by people who have no basic mechanical understanding. If you call out or point out the nonsense you get ambushed by the same uneducated maroons.
Take Skipz Gunz for example. The guy doesn’t compete, doesn’t train, and really doesn’t shoot much aside from showing off the high dollar guns he builds. Convincing people they have to have things like gas peddles, porting, and more. Not mentioning the stuff not being legal in USPSA.
I am all for these conversations
Dude can’t spell either, kids use a z in place of a s.
Gsd pedals are nice to have for certain techniques, porting is nice to have to make a high pressure calibre more controllable, they aren't needed they are luxuries.
Most people can't outshoot the hi point. They can't put cycle it, they aren't more accurate than it is in a rest.
Do the ergos help sure but that's not the point.
@@jediknight1294I will agree to disagree. The stuff is used to up charge people on work they are having done.
Vast majority of pistols receiving these “upgrades” are 9mm..
Those selling these “upgrades” never mention the stuff not being legal for USPSA aside from open devision.
Specially holsters needed..
If you already have solid fundamentals then I get it..
the stuff is being marketed to new shooters is a problem to me.
@@PnP-td1mt the problem is for carry guns they make sense, for making a compact more shoot able makes sense.
Comp, dot, done.
If USPSA wanted to be relevant it would have kept production as production, stock guns, on the list 15 round mags.
The bullshit of here kid your first match go shoot your stock Glock in one of the most equipment heavy divisions in the sport because we refuse to standardise with IPSC because 'reloads are a skill' in a division designed to be a playing field for plastic cheap 15 to 19 round guns was just stupid.
As for them not being legal. In USPSA, nobody cares, the numbers don't lie, not enough people shoot USPSA that it actually matters and USPSA needs to actually look at it's rulesajd it's outreach and promotion to make it relevant to new shooters and manufacturers again.
Im an IPSC shooter, have been for years (mainly because I'm not full time in the US.) and the manufacturers don't care what's legal because... They don't have to.
It's not relevant to sales numbers if their new concealed carry gun isn't legal in IDPA/USPSA, the sports are pretty much useless to them from an advertising pov and the rules haven't been relevant to new handgun design for at least a decade.
Carry optics could have changed that but it couldn't decide what it wanted to be, production optics or a reflection of and a place for what was becoming the new standard of carry guns. It should have been something along the lines of
Flashlights legal, Slide mount dot, comps legal. A place for the guns that people like Lucas, Chuck et Al have been pushing for for the last 10 years and HEAVILY market it to that consumer base. Pay some of the UA-cam names to shoot a few comps, appeal to the guys who are looking at that sort of content and give them a place to use those setups.
If USPSA want manufacturers to care and want the wider shooting community to engage they need to market properly, they need to USE the Internet, they need to use the fact that things like the Wick films have made pistol skills cool and exciting again. They need to support things like AIPSC, they need to aggressively market the sport and hell, given the amount of people working on the ability to use a co2 recoil system firearm shaped object with a VR setup in a gun game enviroment, throw some money at one of the devs/companies making those conversion kits/sensor kits for VR And have USPSA clasifiers accessible to those people.
Oh and actually review the division rules and make them work because currently they don't seem to.
Revolver, 8 round Minor has taken a huge bite out of its appeal to revolver shooters and it's become the new standard need so a niche gun in an already niche division, that's expensive and not very interesting is the gun you need.
Production, that's been a mess for years and the 'well ROs can't tell so change it' creep has turned it into a stealth race gun division with a need for lots of mags. Having Production Optics I can see making sense
Limited is fine as it is for the most part. Having Limited Optics as a seperate division I'm not so sure on given that Carry optics and Production Optics seem to cover the two sides of slide mounted dots fairly well.
Single stack, it's a place for 1911 fans to play, allowing other SAO single stack 8 round 45s or 10rd 9mms wouldn't hurt and let's be honest, USPSA doesn't get anywhere near enough support from the 1911 builders to warrant keeping out things like a Sig p210.
Open and PCC are both fine, though PCC needs to have some things done in the start positions to reassure and remind match directors and stage designers interesting start positions are allowed.
But until USPSA actually sort out their marketing and justify to the industry why what it's ruleset says should matter to companies, it won't matter.
@@jediknight1294no one is reading that nonsense.
Specially after the first few lines where you try to justify the snake oil mods for everyday carry.,
Have you ever taken a defensive pistol class and done so with a ported or comp’d gun?
My guess is no you haven’t or we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
Fire a few shots with a comp’d or ported pistol compressed at your side and tell me how quickly you ditch the ports/comps.
That’s assuming you don’t have reliability issues due to the comp.
I get this stuff being on an open devision race gun where you are looking for every single advantage.
Nothing you will say will change my position on this.
Your distain for USPSA simply tells me you don’t complete. Which is fine. It doesn’t look like you train much either.
The "gun community" reminds me so much of any community that sells snake oil. Naturally there can't be much over discourse and debate because speaking about snake oil out in the open will naturally expose its many holes/defects. You have to consider that many of the "instructors" go train with the Staple/Industry or trendy instructors. Since often times they are validating their instruction ability on the lineage in which they're trained, naturally they can't criticize that lineage. It's like well, I spent $2,000 training with (insert famous instructor), I have pictures of me and him all over my social media, this has become my new personality. The criticism of him can't be real right? Let me check in with the other 7 dudes that took the same $2,000 class with me. Oh yeah, they totally agree with me that our famous instructor is always right, those criticizing him are obviously just haters. They hate his excellence and consequently my excellence too, because I'm his little training baby.
I agree with the “community” comments. I don’t like most gun owners, shooters, competitors, trainers, etc. It’s most definitely not a community.
2 THINGS: The gun community is FULL of EGO. It is the one thing I hate about it and the one thing that keeps potential enthusiast out. Second: People that use acromyms all the time are not good communicators. I stopped a business meeting once for marketing. It had numerous people making big bucks and the speaker was using a ton of acromyms. I started writing them down then stopped the meeting and went around the room asking the participants what the acronyms meant. Many of them could not answer. People use acronyms to make themselves sound smart, and the gun community is LOADED with acromyms. New shooters don't understand that garbage and they are not going to ask because they don't want to look stupid. The more people we have in the gun community the better. The 2nd is the line in the sand. We need each other. Drop the egos and just be nice.
I agree 💯 with you Ben. I respect what Travis did in Iraq all those years ago but frankly he is just gate keeping. He’s basically saying if you are not as cool and scientific as him you shouldn’t carry a gun. It comes off as very elitist and thats bullshit.
I don’t respect what he did. He was a war profiteer who made money off human misery by being a mercenary in a war zone.
I like that Ben calls out the BS. The consumer can sort out what they think from the discussion. Haley may have a good class if your interested in how to deep dive the science side of things but that’s not necessary to succeed at a high level of shooting and him and his followers trying to say if you don’t get curious about the fine details your not worthy of of carrying a gun is divisive and judgmental itself and that’s fine. An opposing viewpoint to him is not a problem. Discussions are how better things are made and things progress, otherwise we would all still be shooting one handed, wearing 5.11 fishing vests, and complaining about sear resets.
Keep calling out bullshit! I find it quite admirable. If people want to keep things"private" why post on social media at all if you're not willing to take all sorts of feedback.
I agree with Ben point of view. “If we are all on the same ship and there is people making hols at the bottom of it, I’m going to say something .When will people see the bullshit “
Great analogy. I run into “hey he is into guns too, I’ll introduce you two”. Dude has a bump stock and shoots up old TVs and leaves them in the bush. I am not in that community nor want to be.
Stealing your analogy.
It's completely ego driven. Like saying "I have aquired a set of knowledge. I hereby declare my level of knowledge to be the new standard and anyone with less knowledge doesn't deserve their firearm." You basically artificially create a portion of people you are superior to so you can get your rocks off talking down to them and dismissing them. I first saw this needy technique applied in 6th grade. Lol. HAS to be addressed puplicly.
If Mr Haley takes affront to critical reaction of his public statements then he must feel he’s beyond criticism … and that doesn’t seem terribly conducive to learning and improvement. So many of these SF guys talk a good game when it comes to “free speech”, not being a “snowflake”, constant growth, and gains (etc etc) … but bristle when those concepts are staring them in the face.
Most ideas people come up with are wrong, so they must be challenged. Criticize as harshly as one likes, with respect. Challenging ideas is how we find the truth.
I think everyone should adopt the mindset of the Gangster Party Hotline.
Ideas like what Haley put out there are dangerous and need to be called out publicly. I don't think it is disrespectful to publicly disagree with an idea like that. It needs to happen that way so everyone involved can see that disagreement as part of the conversation.
It’s just rubes taking his classes, one and done types
Everything has to be an "identity" these days, I swear. My "community" is me and my 4-5 range buddies. That's it. Most of the other folks I meet at the range are usually nice and I don't mind them, but other than a friendly chat after I'm done or when someone's interested in the gun I brought, I don't interact with them.
Lol so if I'm not clued up in science words I should give up my right to self defense? I feel like there's a bit of a disconnect there.
Ideas HAVE to be criticized publicly, otherwise the popular stuff takes hold of the majority and the popular stuff is seldom the correct stuff. People in general are terrible at introspection and questioning their worlds so people who are have a responsibility to curate the right from the wrong and the truths from the lies to keep ego from making up the truth.
I think there’s a time and place for kinesiology and physiology, but it’s usually for the people at the upper limit of sport to find small advantages when a ten thousandth of a second matters. That doesn’t matter for 99.9% of shooters. Science generally belongs in a lab, not on a range.
I'm getting tired of people who are 'experts' telling us normies we need to learn more stuff or we shouldn't have our rights.
We have rights, you either support them or you don't.
If someone said 'you need to know the proper use of adjectives, nouns and verbs or you shouldn't be able to say things in public' I'm sure everyone would agree with them . . .right?
When I see “influencers” or “instructors” like Travis say these things I start to lose respect. I try to not care because sometimes I feel we care too much about what people say on the internet but I run his chest rigs and honestly hearing these statements, makes me question it just out of principle.
His gear r&d is very good, setting up a chest rig is an area where how people move is a huge part of getting one right.
"... is it too much to ask ... when everyone's goals are the same?"
Edit to add "Never mind - I wrote my comment before getting to the end of Ben's video. Yeah - everyone's goals aren't the same."
Like you, I don’t consider the “gun community” to be a very real thing. About 40% of all Americans own a firearm so the threshold cannot simply be owning a firearm. Same reason why owning a nice computer or sports car doesn’t automatically make you part of the pc gamer or sports car community. There are micro communities like competitive shooting and tactical larp. I consider myself part of both because I actually care about shooting competitively and “Prep.”
I’d also say calling out teachers in the industry is objectively a good thing. It’s not disrespectful to say somebody is wrong or dumb for making a wrong or dumb statement. It’s harsh, but ultimately a mature person should be able to take that challenge and either defend their position or simply ignore the callout and move on with their life.
Haley just posted a video on grip. I honestly don’t know how people can digest his unnecessary word salad. The concept behind his grip might not be terrible, but there’s too much “trying to sound smart” around it that i can’t take him seriously. Just come out and tell us the why. Save me some time, Travis.
Wasn’t Spartan117 that dude that played dress up and tried to join a Mil unit while a riot as going on somewhere a couple of years ago? Didn’t he go dark on social media for along time or go to jail?
Yes, he was.
He was national guard but he tried to roll up and join a group of guard tm deployed to a riot when he hadn't been called up and wasn't supposed to be there having decided to go to the thing kitted up if I remember rightly.
Guy was a great resource for kit builds for airsoft but a massive tool.
@@jediknight1294 He wasn't even in the service at that point. He was just dumb.
@@Joe-zo6mw as far as I heard the story he was still guard and that got him Booted out.
But yeah definitely a tool, the fact he's somehow still credible is amazing
Everything you said was spot on.
It's Soacial Media.. key fucking word is "Social"
Just like back a few years ago. Myself and a few others called out Lucas for fidget fucki g with his videos. Edits and speeding up his videos.
Zero aggressive anything towards him. He never showed his hits and the cinema style videos, although super awesome. Eventually, it didn't paint a good picture for him.
After the last call out, he started releasing " Unedited" content, and it started to show that he was, in fact, human and was not robotic and flawless.
Was he trying to screw with people on his video tweaking? No, I don't believe he was. It was part of the style in which he was filming content, and it just worked against him back then.
What is batshit are the gun reviewers who are paid 5 to 10k to give good review? Oh, what about all the Seal Team 47 guys who claim they are the bees' knees and have channels showing how cool they and you must look. The fuckn posturing is retarded.
Eventually, folks with a brain will gravitate towards channels like Ben's because it's more direct and comes with no B.S.
For the record, I’ve never sped up any videos. Haven’t needed too. And nobody who claimed I did could ever prove it, because there’s nothing to prove. I waited a long time for anyone to provide proof and walk people through it and it never happened. The One Takes and longer form content was for a more specific reason and not because of you guys complaining about how fast I am. If you have proof of my older videos being “doctored”, please present it. I’m sure lots of people would love to see that and you’ll get a lot of views. -Lucas
@TREXARMS Meanwhile, long ago.
You did respond and said this.
ua-cam.com/video/x5f8AUQBaXI/v-deo.htmlsi=qfTfIGVr1yZTshZu
How was this not a direct response to the chatter?
Well, we all know you are fast, and it was never the point.
The dude can shoot and in civilian life it works. Running around like that is great practice, but is not realistic. Definitely do it, but remember that when people are shooting back, a speed reload will cost you some blood, get some cover and let your teammates keep their heads down.
I have respect for Trex.
It be great to see one of these guys run the same drills with sims or paint and all the targets shoot first, be over in 3 seconds.
@HWG-wm8ld No doubt he can and he has receipts to back that up on PS.
@@lowbudge007matches are great, they are a good high stress enviroment however there are things you have to do differently when rounds are coming the other way.
Lucas has a really really good grasp on technique, he's a very good shooter. However he like all of us will do things that you can't do when being shot at.
You have to take less perfect shits, you have to use positions that don't allow perfect footwork, you have to move differently.
Being shot at changes how you have to respond.
That doesn't mean someone whose a fast target shooter can't respond well and make hits whilst being shot at its just an acknowledgement that the shooting part isn't the only thing that matters.
Lucas in a situation with sims coming in as he's engaging targets I suspect would do pretty well because he has the aggressive action and movement side down.
Would be interesting to see Ben and Lucas do that. Show how incoming rounds change the way a stage is shot. Not just from a cover and concealment pov but what shots you take, what level of aiming is acceptable and what time you take to engage targets.
Not saying its necessary, but if you criticize in private, at least at first, you do give the opportunity to do better and save face. If they don't or won't, you have to do it in public.
There’s a “2A community” in the sense that doctors are a “community” or fishermen are a “community” or gym goers are a “community” or Republicans are a “community.”
Having a common interest or a few common beliefs in common isn’t a de facto fraternity. People engage with shooting and the shooting sports for wildly different reasons, and there’s nothing in nature that says you must respect the validity of those reasons or the personalities behind them.
There are 2A advocates and hobbyists and trainers and competitors who deserve avoidance at best and public ridicule at worst.
facts dispel the myths from “the know it all brigade”.
Ironically for whatever reason I watched Lovell's podcast with Trex this morning. Then it suggested I watch the one with Travis. He said that and I am like here this elitist blowhard goes again. Guys like him and Tim Kennedy believe in the 2A but, only if your mindset is exactly like theirs. I think if Travis would be completely honest he would say, unless you attend my class you shouldn't carry a gun. Kudos for you and Trex standing up against this BS. You have earned a sub.
The discussion is valuable but your style is more blunt and cutting, which serves the purpose of attracting attention. Accountability is important to improvement. I’ve been sold the snake oil many times.
I think there is room to discuss differences in more cordial ways - but you’re getting some people to think and some people to dig in deep. What difference does it make? Probably not much.
I wonder what Haley's USPSA classification is.
His Ocular and Kinesiology Scientists are working on it 😄.
I stood on the same range with the guy. He would barely make upper C class.
He's not scary, its the people that follow him that are scary!
Could you do a divisive video on "gateway defense" urban edc video he just released? Just the first minute of the action movie is enough to see lol
I’ll look at it
I think it's only an issue if you exaggerate the severity of what someone said or turn it into a bigger deal than it should be. Like trying to get everyone to completely turn against someone for a minor comment. This happens a lot with internet drama, which I think is why there is such a backlash to causing drama.
Travis needs some open criticism.....
How do you feel about the 2A and the “2A community?”
The same free speech that applies to him being able to say, applies to you being able to criticize it. If you're going to say something publicly you better be ready to defend it publicly.
It is very obvious you're primarily motivated to assist shooters to improve their performance. Unlike many others who spend too much effort marketing themselves - hyping their training w silly buzzwords, demonstrating their own skills and always selling their "brand" !!!
I appreciate you taking the time to breakdown my comment. While we may not agree on everything its a good discussion to have. Me personally i hate seeing respected people who are both doing good trying to destroy each other when i know they both have important things to share.
I think Haley way overcomplicates his teaching methodology just based on the videos I've seen. Furthermore, his training company is as much a gear brand as anything else, and needs to be viewed as such.
I teach US history at the college freshmen level, and the more I overcomplicate the basic principles I have to cover, the less my students understand it. Haley fluffs up his teaching with big words and it overcomplicates what should be simplified as, "put dot on target, shoot fast, correct your method if not meeting expectations."
I still Wonder what those ocular scientists are doing there while you shoot
If you cannot explain concepts to a broad audience it is because you do not understand the topic well enough.
I'm curious what caused Travis to say this...I'm a proponent of people carrying, but working at the oldest and one of the largest ranges in my state has made me realize...most people are pretty cheeks at shooting. I've always considered myself an intermediate shooter until I started working here, and realized that my perception is pretty warped thanks to the internet. About the only time I find myself really competing with people is when we host a competition, and even then, outside of the open gun shooters...I would say there was a handful of people that I was chasing and only a couple of guys who I felt like I was really struggling to keep up with (with a new gun that I haven't had a chance to train with due to the fact I messed it up).
PS. I think that the gun community as a whole has a ton of sub-communities. Some people stay inside of one of these sub-communities, and some of us flex between them.
One of the odd things iv noticed is those of us who train or compete are usually sure we are worse than we actually arenandnthisenwhondontnthink they are better than they actually are
Calling out perceived BS isn’t being divisive….primarily what ppl do on social media, the problem is ppl aren’t used to see it in “the gun industry” mostly because instructors are too scared to call out other instructors for fear of losing potential customers or being proved wrong themselves. It’s precisely why instructors not showing their competence online outside of their classes shouldn’t be followed/listened to.
Question do you know if his methods produce positive results. Have you spoken with any of his students. I think it would be great for the community if you took one of his classes.
It does not. I was one of his student when I was in my early shooting years. Went to his class, took his bet for 100% off his next class, out shot both him and Nate in their own drill (the diet El Prez), my dude ignored the bet and I am still salty years later lol. But in all seriousness, I went out of his class exactly the same way I went in.
His classes years ago were helpful, his classes now... I'd not take. It's very much a case of there's not a massive amount yiu learn from it you can take and practice on your own and improve on.
VS say Ben or Joel where the class improves and informs future practice.
I am so sick of the go along to get along attitude. Fuck that. The idea that the most influential shooting gurus should back-channel criticisms is stupid. If you and Haley had a private phone conversation where you told him what you thought, what would that change? Nothing. You'd disagree, the video would stay up, and we'd all continue to be exposed to that bullshit without a dissenting voice. Public discussion, even contentious discussion, is ultimately a good thing. We have got to stop being afraid to call out bullshit and those who support and disseminate it. Haley's attitudes and ideas are fucked up, no other way to put it. I want him and those like him to speak out, so we know who they are. But I also want those like you and Lucas to PUBLICALLY call them out so we can all see the opposing view. Expecting, or wanting, all such disagreements to be private is anathema to a free and open exchange of ideas. It's messy and makes some people feel bad but ultimately democracy is messy. That doesn't make it bad. Never stop Ben. Never.
Hey, I am relatively new to the gun/shooting community and I have noticed the gatekeeping that happens when meeting or talking about anything guns. It gets even crazier when people are or think they are “instructors”. I agree with your points and we should call out each other when we say stupid or crazy 💩. Keep real like always and God bless.
Grab some wood bub
Ok, old timer. Can’t speak up too much because of “reasons”. I guess thank you for providing a little true to my statement. 😂
I just started shooting in USPSA carry optic class, and I have already see improvement in 6 matches I have shoot in. C class working towards B class. You need a Master or pHD degree to know terms of physiology to be a shooter…I don’t think so.
@ben, what kind of careers do your students usually come from? Travis exudes a lot of midwit elitism. Smart enough to know big words, not smart enough to know not to use them. His classes seem to attract people with slightly above average intelligence who love rules and procedures. Lots of pilots, cops, military, gov employees, nurses that want to signal that they’re smart. But almost no one from “professional” or creative. I’d guess you probably appeal more to this second group who doesn’t need Haley to signal for them.
Should I get the glock 45, 47, or 49? Dont have any glocks rn.
47.
17 or 34
Do you have big hands? 45, 47, or 17. Small hands? 49 or 19.