we use Tetra here in Germany for Police and soon for Firefighters and Paramedics. I belive it is an 256 bit AES crypt. 70cm Band @8W The old 4m and 2m band will be replaced soon (4m = car to car to control room, via relais (for cars 10W)) (2m for person to person(persons 1W or so))
I prefer the analog sizzle interference in a weak signal over the digital hit-and-miss/chunks of speech dropping out interference, because I can usually still make out what's being said through the analog static. Also, even a full strength perfect reception digital voice signal can be hard to understand because of the "robotic" or "Donal Duck" quality that the voice has due to the digital vocoder. I'm a fan of the idea of digital voice on paper, but so far, not in practice.
depends on use cases, i agree however especially in smaller scale private use, analog is cheaper, easier, and works almost as well as digital in range and coverage. i found digital is maybe 10% better overall range but at 100+% of the cost. the keep it simple stupid motto is where its at...
Where's the apx 8000's, the ultimate in interoperability, all you need to do is to sell your vehicle and you fire born child. Also it seems that DMR is becoming more and more popular in both the hams with their MARCS net, and also in the commercial side.
Ha Haaaa.... Love that intro. This was a good demo. I would have loved to seen the effect of changing the polarisation of the hand held antennas between vertical and horizontal and points between on both models. Good stuff.
+InTheNameOfJustice That's a good idea. Been thinking about making a vid on the different bands and how it works in different environment like buildings and vegetation. Polarization is a big overlooked aspect out there.
+todd3293 I enjoy making them, just need to quit my real job and put up my kids for adoption to find the time.. lol More will come for sure.. Thanks for watching and the kind words.
Excellent video and interesting new topic. Regarding the on/off Comms on digital, its important that people understand the same RF rules apply, as with analog radios. Higher gain antennas give improved results. Also I like the DSTAR capability, but it doesn't work with anything else. Yaesu is trying to be backwards compatible, but I think they came too late to the game. Miss your vids GC.
With more than a year gone past, how is it with Yaesus Digital in your area? Germany has been flooded with System Fusion and i'd say at least 90% of the repeaters use the Backwardscompatibility mode. It's nice, but only happend because of the huge "cash back" by Yaesu. 73 DJ6KR
In the US LE also uses DMR (trunked and single freq) and NXDN (trunked and single freq). The infrastructure and radios are cheaper than P25 Phase I and II.
Kenwood and Motorola Public Service radios are different also. Had a buddy that had 2 digital scanners that would listen to Motorola but couldn’t listen to Kenwood.
One thing I've noticed as digital modes have become more refined, the receivers in the newer digital radios have gotten better and better. My first gen Astro's are all comprably spec'd to their analog counterparts where some of the newer radios have a 2-3 dB lower 5% BER testing when put on the monitor. There is actually a lot of interesting math that shows why P25 migration resulted in coverage loss for some or why DMR/NXDN has resulted in coverage increase (I actually saw roughly a 36% coverage increase when comparing DMR to 5.0 kHz analog). Digital is quite an interesting subject especially in the form of commercial communications. Plus, the politics/sales conspiracies will definitely keep you on your toes?
Wow, I have not heard of getting more range/coverage using those other modes. Perhaps the algorithms is such that its more forgiven when noise is introduced than P25, who knows. Thanks for the insight.
P25 goes from 5% BER to 50% in roughly 5 dB. DMR has about 10 dB. P25 is also a much older technology being nearly 20 years old now. When you actually sit down and analyze the modulation indices, you'll find that P25 is actually about 1.2 dB less efficient than 5.0 kHz analog and resulted in a ~10% coverage loss (Smartnet to P25 stories are beginning to make sense). Of course, 2.5 kHz analog is 3 dB less efficient than wideband and with that in consideration Phase 1 really wasn't a bad option at the time (it'll outperform 2.5 kHz every time but not 5.0 kHz).
lol love the cup and slippers and that you are interested in that type of crap as you so called it LOL. Keep up the good work and thanks for your vids.
Nice Aeroflex and BK radios. I'm a fan of DMR radios. Most of them have degrees of privacy from low end basic to mid level ARC4 encryption. AES is available for upper tier Hytera DMR radios by purchasing the advanced encryption license from a dealer. It runs $220-$270 per radio for the upgrade. There's two choices for AES: 1: DMRA standard AES128/256 ( also works with MotoTRBO AES 256 if you manage to get it from Moto) 2: Hytera proprietary AES 128/256 No keyloaders are needed, it's all set up in the CPS. You set your key (32 hexadecimal characters for 128 bit or 64 hexadecimal characters for 256 bit. In cps you can also set them up to choose random keys everytime the PTT is pressed. You set 30 AES keys in cps and check multi-key and random key box to initiate this very high level of voice security. or you can simply choose one single AES128 key or one AES 256 key. At the present they are both uncrackable.
It's about half that from Simoco… Personally, I'm fond of DMR in UHF and especially when you begin looking into trunking systems with DMR for the price. My most used personal gear is P25…and there are actually more P25 repeaters for amateur use in this part of the state.
DSTAR is used by some Icom, Kenwood, and Flex radios. DSTAR radios cost more than the analogue radios from these companies. DSTAR is really only widely used in Japan. It still has a very small market share in the rest of the world. Fusion is not a "Yeasu sort of" digital mode. It's a C4FM Digital mode owned by Yeasu and only used in Yeasu radios. It has almost zero penetration in the US market. DMR Tier III radios are becoming increasingly popular in the US, mostly represent by the Motorola MOTOTRBO radios as well as increasing number of Chinese DMR radios, and almost all operate in the 400-490 MHz range. It's primarily used by businesses. Growing numbers of US hams are going to DMR for digital because it's open source. US hams have now backwards engineered a $100 TYT DMR portable so it will work with DMR, P25, DSTAR, and Fusion. It's not, however, capable of trunking. Any of the DMR radios will talk to each other. Digital signals don't decrease in clarity as distance increases. The signal begins to break up and ten it's just gone, much like what you see on a digital TV. An analogue signal also doesn't decrease in clarity. The signal just gets increasingly swamped by natural and manmade noise. Digital isn't as effected by that kind of noise so that's why the clarity seems better. It is foolish to use digital radios when the communications are primarily going to be HT to HT. Digital only performs well when it's being transmitted from a good antenna mounted on a high place and as part of a repeater system. You will lose a minimum of 5db of signal going digital HT to digital HT compared to analogue over more than a mile or so.
my local public safety just made the switch to 700 MHz digital, I am not familiar with digital.. does digital service use repeaters to enhance the range like 2 meter ham radio?
+a1xavier Yes it does, very much so. Nothing changes but the way they handle your voice and data in the background transparent to the user. The same rules apply with just a little difference here and there, most pointed out in this vid.
Thank you so much for the videos I'm an amateur in comms and I'm trying to look for the best equipment to run tactically on my plate carrier, what do you think of the Harris Tri AN/PRC 152 ?
I want to operator A and B, but I dont want anyone to listen also...But yes i agree the main point is to have the established communication that you want....I dont want to be heard or tracked....
A++ on the Video (!!) Actually show none technical an operator goes a long way. When Digital and Narrow Banding first took place Radio Shops got a lots of broken radio call outs “my radio stopped working were it worked before” or the dispatch sounds like “Donald Duck can’t understand a word being said” also In a high noise environment like Fire Ground situations loud noise gets encoded along with voice and become unintelligible on the other end. TNX Good Job
+John Talbot Thanks. I actually cut about 6 minutes worth of ramblings about the noise issue with the digital vocoders and how fire fighter died because of it. Wonder if the newer models addressed that issue or not, have not been keeping up with newer developments. Thanks for the kind words and watching.
Thanks for sharing ! Great idea using different languages as a metaphor for different protocols. DMR and P25 is very popular here. I use TRBO on 70cm and it works great. www.dmr-marc.net. Another protocol is NXDN which it seems the railroads are transitioning to.
Family Radio Service (free w/o license, 0.5W power) and General Mobile Radio Service ($70 FCC family license, 2W+ power). FRS is the basic wallow-talkies at Walmart (eg Motorola Talk-About radios) but in recent years they also included GMRS channels with higher power. They are both in the 70cm ~440mhz VHF band.
I moved to South GA from Cali. The Jacksonville FL metro area. Yaesu Fusion is dominate here and DMR. Hams argue day in and day out about digital radio on the analog repeaters. Like which one will be the dominate digital mode and how digital will or will not take over analog mode. It's ridiculous
Why is it Tactical with Digital and not analog in the title? Tactical when I deploy in the field to aid stations is that any amateur license can pick up the radio if the sites tactical call is used.Tactical is calling a P.O.D. not a single ham. [point of distribution]
This stuff totally fascinates me. I need to stop procrastinating and get my amateur license. I'm scared to take the test. Not sure I know enough to pass. Plus I can't afford a HAM radio/antenna just yet. I'm going to see if there are any HAM user groups in the Greater Atlanta area I could just hang out with and learn more while I save more money
+Rob Lambert the best part is its progressive, it works your weak subjects and keeps going until you are proficient. Then take some practice exams, and see where stand. I did this and once I was at a 90% plus pass ratio I tested with a local club and passed. Good luck.
+Rob Lambert GO TAKE THE TEST. They quit beating people who dont pass with holly bushes 3 decades ago. Take it. If you pass move on. If not, come back next week.
+USMCsniperSEAL I would if I had direct experience with it, and gear, which I have neither Don't really want to keyboard command about things I dont know about. If I come across DMR stuff, you bet I will put in in a cage match with the other modes. Thanks for watching.
I'm final going Digital picking the Yaesu side since it works with FM better.... and there are some interesting USB devices that Third Party developers are Working that make Dstar workable if this is perfected I think the Fusion System will Win out here is a beta setup link hke.no/d-star-on-fusion.html What do you think - Charles
The "dagger" is a nice touch!
This is a fantastic video, the only video that no one should complain about it’s audio quality ❤
we use Tetra here in Germany for Police and soon for Firefighters and Paramedics. I belive it is an 256 bit AES crypt. 70cm Band @8W
The old 4m and 2m band will be replaced soon (4m = car to car to control room, via relais (for cars 10W)) (2m for person to person(persons 1W or so))
Beautifully explained. I am watching all your comm vids thanks!
I prefer the analog sizzle interference in a weak signal over the digital hit-and-miss/chunks of speech dropping out interference, because I can usually still make out what's being said through the analog static.
Also, even a full strength perfect reception digital voice signal can be hard to understand because of the "robotic" or "Donal Duck" quality that the voice has due to the digital vocoder. I'm a fan of the idea of digital voice on paper, but so far, not in practice.
depends on use cases, i agree however especially in smaller scale private use, analog is cheaper, easier, and works almost as well as digital in range and coverage. i found digital is maybe 10% better overall range but at 100+% of the cost.
the keep it simple stupid motto is where its at...
Great intro GC...! Had me rolling.
One day I will get into these comm preps, but they keep changing... Thanks for the info!
Thank You for explaining this in such a simple manner.
Where's the apx 8000's, the ultimate in interoperability, all you need to do is to sell your vehicle and you fire born child. Also it seems that DMR is becoming more and more popular in both the hams with their MARCS net, and also in the commercial side.
Ha Haaaa.... Love that intro. This was a good demo. I would have loved to seen the effect of changing the polarisation of the hand held antennas between vertical and horizontal and points between on both models. Good stuff.
+InTheNameOfJustice That's a good idea. Been thinking about making a vid on the different bands and how it works in different environment like buildings and vegetation. Polarization is a big overlooked aspect out there.
Great video. Always nice to see "A/B" comparisons.
these tutorial/demonstration videos are my favorite kind. keep up the good work. do more of these if you can
+todd3293 I enjoy making them, just need to quit my real job and put up my kids for adoption to find the time.. lol More will come for sure.. Thanks for watching and the kind words.
Excellent video and interesting new topic. Regarding the on/off Comms on digital, its important that people understand the same RF rules apply, as with analog radios. Higher gain antennas give improved results.
Also I like the DSTAR capability, but it doesn't work with anything else. Yaesu is trying to be backwards compatible, but I think they came too late to the game.
Miss your vids GC.
+SurvivalTech Nord I try to kick them out, just need a few more hours a day.. Thanks for watching..
With more than a year gone past, how is it with Yaesus Digital in your area? Germany has been flooded with System Fusion and i'd say at least 90% of the repeaters use the Backwardscompatibility mode. It's nice, but only happend because of the huge "cash back" by Yaesu.
73
DJ6KR
this was great. thank you. i'm old school, but i'm going to be trying out DMR on the local repeater soon.. i'm big on GMRS with the kids too.
Great video, loved the walk around in the two modes.
In the US LE also uses DMR (trunked and single freq) and NXDN (trunked and single freq). The infrastructure and radios are cheaper than P25 Phase I and II.
Though I understood the topic already, I found this to be very clearly explained on how all those different versions worked
Do you think that DV WOULD WORK BETTER, USING A YAGI DIRECTIONAL ANTENNA. FROM STEVE UK. LEARNING HAMRADIO.
Did anyone ever figure out where they were when the noise started?
Kenwood and Motorola Public Service radios are different also. Had a buddy that had 2 digital scanners that would listen to Motorola but couldn’t listen to Kenwood.
One thing I've noticed as digital modes have become more refined, the receivers in the newer digital radios have gotten better and better. My first gen Astro's are all comprably spec'd to their analog counterparts where some of the newer radios have a 2-3 dB lower 5% BER testing when put on the monitor.
There is actually a lot of interesting math that shows why P25 migration resulted in coverage loss for some or why DMR/NXDN has resulted in coverage increase (I actually saw roughly a 36% coverage increase when comparing DMR to 5.0 kHz analog). Digital is quite an interesting subject especially in the form of commercial communications. Plus, the politics/sales conspiracies will definitely keep you on your toes?
Wow, I have not heard of getting more range/coverage using those other modes. Perhaps the algorithms is such that its more forgiven when noise is introduced than P25, who knows. Thanks for the insight.
P25 goes from 5% BER to 50% in roughly 5 dB. DMR has about 10 dB. P25 is also a much older technology being nearly 20 years old now. When you actually sit down and analyze the modulation indices, you'll find that P25 is actually about 1.2 dB less efficient than 5.0 kHz analog and resulted in a ~10% coverage loss (Smartnet to P25 stories are beginning to make sense). Of course, 2.5 kHz analog is 3 dB less efficient than wideband and with that in consideration Phase 1 really wasn't a bad option at the time (it'll outperform 2.5 kHz every time but not 5.0 kHz).
lol love the cup and slippers and that you are interested in that type of crap as you so called it LOL. Keep up the good work and thanks for your vids.
Nice Aeroflex and BK radios.
I'm a fan of DMR radios. Most of them have degrees of privacy from low end basic to mid level ARC4 encryption.
AES is available for upper tier Hytera DMR radios by purchasing the advanced encryption license from a dealer. It runs $220-$270 per radio for the upgrade.
There's two choices for AES:
1: DMRA standard AES128/256 ( also works with MotoTRBO AES 256 if you manage to get it from Moto)
2: Hytera proprietary AES 128/256
No keyloaders are needed, it's all set up in the CPS. You set your key (32 hexadecimal characters for 128 bit or 64 hexadecimal characters for 256 bit.
In cps you can also set them up to choose random keys everytime the PTT is pressed.
You set 30 AES keys in cps and check multi-key and random key box to initiate this very high level of voice security.
or you can simply choose one single AES128 key or one AES 256 key.
At the present they are both uncrackable.
It's about half that from Simoco…
Personally, I'm fond of DMR in UHF and especially when you begin looking into trunking systems with DMR for the price. My most used personal gear is P25…and there are actually more P25 repeaters for amateur use in this part of the state.
DSTAR is used by some Icom, Kenwood, and Flex radios. DSTAR radios cost more than the analogue radios from these companies. DSTAR is really only widely used in Japan. It still has a very small market share in the rest of the world.
Fusion is not a "Yeasu sort of" digital mode. It's a C4FM Digital mode owned by Yeasu and only used in Yeasu radios. It has almost zero penetration in the US market.
DMR Tier III radios are becoming increasingly popular in the US, mostly represent by the Motorola MOTOTRBO radios as well as increasing number of Chinese DMR radios, and almost all operate in the 400-490 MHz range. It's primarily used by businesses.
Growing numbers of US hams are going to DMR for digital because it's open source. US hams have now backwards engineered a $100 TYT DMR portable so it will work with DMR, P25, DSTAR, and Fusion. It's not, however, capable of trunking. Any of the DMR radios will talk to each other.
Digital signals don't decrease in clarity as distance increases. The signal begins to break up and ten it's just gone, much like what you see on a digital TV. An analogue signal also doesn't decrease in clarity. The signal just gets increasingly swamped by natural and manmade noise. Digital isn't as effected by that kind of noise so that's why the clarity seems better.
It is foolish to use digital radios when the communications are primarily going to be HT to HT. Digital only performs well when it's being transmitted from a good antenna mounted on a high place and as part of a repeater system. You will lose a minimum of 5db of signal going digital HT to digital HT compared to analogue over more than a mile or so.
DMR seems to be taking over outside of P25
my local public safety just made the switch to 700 MHz digital, I am not familiar with digital.. does digital service use repeaters to enhance the range like 2 meter ham radio?
+a1xavier Yes it does, very much so. Nothing changes but the way they handle your voice and data in the background transparent to the user. The same rules apply with just a little difference here and there, most pointed out in this vid.
Thank you so much for the videos I'm an amateur in comms and I'm trying to look for the best equipment to run tactically on my plate carrier, what do you think of the Harris Tri AN/PRC 152 ?
I want to operator A and B, but I dont want anyone to listen also...But yes i agree the main point is to have the established communication that you want....I dont want to be heard or tracked....
A++ on the Video (!!) Actually show none technical an operator goes a long way. When Digital and Narrow Banding first took place Radio Shops got a lots of broken radio call outs “my radio stopped working were it worked before” or the dispatch sounds like “Donald Duck can’t understand a word being said” also In a high noise environment like Fire Ground situations loud noise gets encoded along with voice and become unintelligible on the other end. TNX Good Job
+John Talbot Thanks. I actually cut about 6 minutes worth of ramblings about the noise issue with the digital vocoders and how fire fighter died because of it. Wonder if the newer models addressed that issue or not, have not been keeping up with newer developments. Thanks for the kind words and watching.
You’re getting the point across- going digital and narrow band has a new set of issues.
P25 is being used on 2m 70cm here in the US and DMR is exploding here as well
Thought of "africans" before something like French, or Portuguese?
To be correct I think he meant ‘Afrikaans’ (a language on South Africa from Dutch origin) not Africans which are people in Africa.
Thanks for sharing ! Great idea using different languages as a metaphor for different protocols. DMR and P25 is very popular here. I use TRBO on 70cm and it works great.
www.dmr-marc.net. Another protocol is NXDN which it seems the railroads are transitioning to.
Whats the difference between FRS and GMRS?
google.
+GraymanTactics Google is the difference?
Charles Bryan yep
Family Radio Service (free w/o license, 0.5W power) and General Mobile Radio Service ($70 FCC family license, 2W+ power). FRS is the basic wallow-talkies at Walmart (eg Motorola Talk-About radios) but in recent years they also included GMRS channels with higher power. They are both in the 70cm ~440mhz VHF band.
I moved to South GA from Cali. The Jacksonville FL metro area. Yaesu Fusion is dominate here and DMR. Hams argue day in and day out about digital radio on the analog repeaters. Like which one will be the dominate digital mode and how digital will or will not take over analog mode. It's ridiculous
funny intro GUERRILLACOM, love it. Good topic on analog to digital communication.
Alma de Barrio!!!!
Why is it Tactical with Digital and not analog in the title? Tactical when I deploy in the field to aid stations is that any amateur license can pick up the radio if the sites tactical call is used.Tactical is calling a P.O.D. not a single ham. [point of distribution]
basically you got 4 systems Motorola/yaesu/kenwood/icom
with dmr is a hybrid of sorts which can interface between the standards
This stuff totally fascinates me. I need to stop procrastinating and get my amateur license. I'm scared to take the test. Not sure I know enough to pass. Plus I can't afford a HAM radio/antenna just yet. I'm going to see if there are any HAM user groups in the Greater Atlanta area I could just hang out with and learn more while I save more money
I used HAM test online, www.hamradiolicenseexam.com/. Both Tech and General, working on Extra now.
1oldarmyguy wow dang man thanks a ton. Never knew about that. I owe ya.
hamflashcard.com practice and easy pass.
+Rob Lambert the best part is its progressive, it works your weak subjects and keeps going until you are proficient. Then take some practice exams, and see where stand. I did this and once I was at a 90% plus pass ratio I tested with a local club and passed. Good luck.
+Rob Lambert GO TAKE THE TEST. They quit beating people who dont pass with holly bushes 3 decades ago. Take it. If you pass move on. If not, come back next week.
I don’t like the P25 audio quality, for me an analog radio is easier to understand. I guess officers get used to p25
Tan Pears Lack Full Flavor, Tango Papa Limah Foxtrot Foxtrot
Should have gone into DMR more.
+USMCsniperSEAL I would if I had direct experience with it, and gear, which I have neither Don't really want to keyboard command about things I dont know about. If I come across DMR stuff, you bet I will put in in a cage match with the other modes. Thanks for watching.
forgot about Mototrbo man!
Raidergeek34 DMR=MotoTRBO, except for MotoTRBO trunking, which is mostly proprietary...
Hello Kitty!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm final going Digital picking the Yaesu side since it works with FM better.... and there are some interesting USB devices that Third Party developers are Working that make Dstar workable if this is perfected I think the Fusion System will Win out here is a beta setup link hke.no/d-star-on-fusion.html What do you think - Charles
Really bad analogies.