High AOA landings and Slats, How useful are they
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- Опубліковано 15 вер 2024
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Here I discuss my opinions on the subject with examples of why I don't use the technique.
I don’t think high AOA landings exist if there isn’t a camera nearby
Thanks for callin out that draco clip. Not experienced enough to have a reason for it but did not think that was very safe. Enjoyed this video. Thanks
Greg,... I enjoy your videos and respect your opinions and your skills, however slats are not about high angle of attack without forward visibility to me. I've had an Alaskan Super Cub for the last 45 years, and only fly the backcountry with it...great airplane. 4 years ago I bought an Outback Shock Cub with slats and double slotted flaps... so now I have both. The Shock cub has change my style of aproach and landing. I do MUCH steeper aproachs, but at a fairly level attitude and slow speed. If the landing spot does'nt have obsticles you can rotate to a high angle or just plop it in at a level attitude. The slats are very benifical after takeoff and manuvering in tight quarters. They also add a large degree of saftey in the dreaded moose spotter spin senario. I love both airplanes, but I have used the Shock Cub to land and improve spots for my Super Cub.
I believe slats are benificial to those with a flying style that utilizes them....Thanks for your videos
Your welcome, glad you found an aircraft that works better then a cub for you:))
Cowboy, I agree, You can fly the plane at high AOA if you need to (in the 20s), but you dont have to. Slats are just another tool. And the safety factor is huge. give me a shout, lets go test the short spots next time you are down the K. Peninsula
Thank you sir for that!
What is the weight of your Shock Cub?
You are the real deal, and it shows in your flying.
Well said, my plane already has not so great visibility at landing AOA so slats would never be something I would be comfortable with because I would need a periscope to see what is in front of me! Also the idea of dropping the mains from that high after the tail hits is just too harsh on the airframe for me to want to do on a regular basis.
I think you always exhibit a conscientious attitude as a flyer and that’s admirable! 🤠👍
I am not sure if you can with the Freedom Fox but Maule aircraft are a very poor design for seat position and visibility over the nose. That was the first thing I modified on my Certified Maule years ago. Any airplane I build I always try and get my head as high up and as far forward as I can comfortably stand. Just have to make sure your seat belt is tight in turbulence:))
As always the practical approach from vast experience that provides sufficient results with less wear and tear on the airplane, pilot, and spectators. Even Mike Patey admitted stalling his right wing on that second approach and showed us the cockpit video with the pucker factor clearly expressed. Draco was a beloved airplane and probably had the most thrust pound for pound in any bush plane around. The fact that he could quickly get that power spooled up again probably kept him from wrecking completely in that high AOA approach #2 when he stalled. Thanks for the insight Greg!!!
I enjoy watching your flying and commentary and being able to land when and where you choose. What I know about flying/piloting; nothing! I'm pushing 80, will never pilot my own plane so enjoy living vicariously behind the windshield of your plane. Thanks for sharing your experiences.
Thanks for sharing!
Really appreciate the thought that went into this. I'm relatively new at the STOL/off airport thing and I have a lot to learn, and understanding why a stock Maule like mine won't do what yours will prevents me from trying things I shouldn't. Thanks.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Probably the best analysis of short field slow flight design I’ve seen. Real world stuff. Keep it up!👍🇨🇦
Thanks, will do!
Greg, very good points and very useful info, I guess I’ll keep flying my beat up 180 in and out for tight Bush strips in Alaska. With 31”s, the hardest part is the taxi. All the old timers say to stop after landing immediately and walk the strip so you don’t hit something you didn’t see. I stop everytime I land at a unknown strip. Thanks for the video, I appreciate the content
🤘😎
This right here. Repositioning after landing on a new spot will cost you.
I feel like I understand twice as much as I did about landing and mods after watching this. I probably don't but I did learn a lot.
You seem to be one of the few people who still know how to slip...back when I was flying old aircraft without flaps I could slip to landing, flairing coming out of the slip and stop in a couple of lengths of the aircraft. Today it seems folks rely on slats, flaps, cuffs and other stuff...would love to see you do something on slips and the mastery thereof as it seems they are almost forgoten today..
Thanks for the idea
Exactly how my dad used to land his old Taylorcraft.
Very good discussion. Gets us green horns up to date.
THIS IS without a doubt the best flying/handling of ANY aircraft I’ve seen to date. Seriously. Yeah..’small, light’ planes but KNOWING aerodynamics like THIS is what it’s all about.
Greg-analysis is what helps us learn. I really enjoyed this video with the examples and your thoughts. Eventually I want to get into STOL…so while seeing you fly into cool spots is definitely neat, it’s the analysis and the discussion of your thought processes that I really enjoy. Why you can/can’t get into a spot, why it may not be a good idea, what equipment may help/hurt, etc. When I can afford a STOL plane I will get one, and I intend on using it to open up access to the remote outdoors-your videos help in that learning process. Thanks for the great content!
Thanks for the feedback I will keep your suggestions in mind for another video.
I'll go ahead say it. STOL competitions bore me.
And have almost nothing at all to do with bush flying.
This is the topic I have been waiting for! Thank you for time discussing this very important matter. Your knowledge is priceless.
Glad you enjoyed it!
I always enjoy your videos, low key and factual. 👍🏻
I agree 100%.
For the practical application of backcountry flying with varying terrain, obstacles, mechanical turbulence with sinkers/shears, what you preach is the way to do it and teach it. Like having a good alternate, you always want a margin. I call it aerodynamic redundancy.
I’m a proponent of tail low wheel landings where you roll the airplane into a level attitude at touchdown to protect the tail and see where the rollout is going on a narrow strip. The practice also kills the lift, which is a good thing when the wind is really gusting. The tail is eventually going to lower, but by then your forward speed is low enough to not hurt it on rough terrain.
With Sportsman cuff, ART WingX extensions and VG’s on our 185, the pitch attitude during approach is level to slightly nose high. The range of approach airspeeds is 50-60 MPH, depending on weight, which varies from a low of 2100# to 3525# GW. Those speeds are without gust factor corrections. I can have high DA and mechanical turbulence at my home airstrip, so there are times when I only use 30 flaps to for the approach to reduce drag and increase the recovery margin for any sinkers that might occur. This is one area where the 185 with 300 HP shines over the stock 180. Yeah, I know, the early 180’s are lighter, but when I need 1700# of useful load (and I sometimes do), it’s there for me.
The high AOA available with slats would be scary going into my home strip and some places in Idaho. I’d much rather have the longer 206 flaps on my 185, but for what we need, the current configuration serves us well for the practical application of STOL ops in a heavy airplane.
Hey guys I am dirt biking until Tuesday but it is great to see the comments come in. 😄
Sounds like fun! Be safe too🤠👍
Very informative. Thx Greg. Great point of view
NICE!luv the way you look at things and describe it in detail experience says it all!
Thank you for your opinions on this and being open to others disagreeing with you. This gives me a new way to observe both your landings and others. Not a pilot. One day maybe. But till then any info/ knowledge gained is a bonus.
You are so welcome!
Thanks for putting your thoughts into this video. Not everyone will agree but for those building aircraft, or thinking of upgrading theirs this gives perspective on what leading edge modifications will do to the aircraft performance and someone can take those observations and make an informed decision that is based on their flying style.
I think the cuff is the way to go. Really like to have one on my bird. I end up often using a 3 pt because my LZ's are from 9k to 13.5k msl and ground speed is nuts. I'd rather use more of a wheel landing and avoid sending rocks into my tail feathers but sometimes I can't get slow enough that way up high. Too many down sides to slats with the drag on climb and cruise. Seems a good cuff adds some good bottom end speed and takes away very little up top... that's a good trade. And as you mentioned, good flaps are necessary! Good discussion points Greg!
Yeah, those elevations are going to see high landing speeds. I might be testing a carbon fiber cuff in a few months, I will let you know what I find out.
@@mauleguy looking forward to you trying those out 👍
Another Great Video. Thank You
LANDINGS:
Slats allow very extreme slips with a positive angle of attack, that still has a good view over the nose.
Slats allow much steeper angle slipping descents. Your landing over 80 foot trees, to a full stop, can be cut by 75%.
Slats allow you to much more abruptly stop the decent at touch down.
A slatted wing has much higher aileron force/control; from 5 degrees up to stall.
A strong gust from the side is much easier handled with a slatted wing OF EQUAL SIZE (area).
Slats move the CG aft, as the angle is increased, for much more total lift ( less tail downforce).
A slat provides more lift per pound, than the wing ( 3 to 4 times more ).
In an engine out into trees/brush etc. The airplane can be stalled in at 25% less speed and half the impact energy.
With a slat, less turbulent air is hitting the tail.
The elevator and rudder are more effective.
TAKE OFFS:
With slats you have much more lift, as soon as +15 degrees can be reached.
Slats double your Best Angle of Climb. Full stop to clearing a 100 foot obstacle; your distance could be shortened 50%.
With slats your flaps produce more lift, at all angles of attack.
CANYONS AND TIGHT SPOTS:
Slats allow a much slower and tighter split S or tight turn, in a canyon, that you shouldn't have gotten into.
recommends
Configure your airplane for YOUR MISSION.
Lots of information there, not going to pick it a part one item at a time. I will let people read what you have stated, I stand behind what I said in the video. The best thing to do would be to go flying and see if either you have a problem hanging with me or I have a problem hanging with you. We could make that happen and I am willing to video the results. I will be in Alaska in late August or if you are in my area (Washington State) any time works for me.
Hi Greg . Your common sense commentary on slow flight and high angle of attack. I appreciate the wisdom. Its vary impressive when you land on such big rocks. Be safe , God bless ya.
Thank you
Yep. Totally agree. I’m a wheel lander off airport. Never understood those who think high AOA is beneficial, especially off airport with obstacles. Too important to hit your landing spot as accurately as possible. This is made easier by wheel landings and not floating trying to get slowed with higher AOA and totally missing the touchdown spot.
Very good points, thanks for sharing.
I enjoy the topic discussion. It could be further discussed as 1) 3 point landing vs. wheel landing 2) stall protection vs. weight.
But ultimately the technique is what works for the type of flying. Great content
#1 is the one that get most peoples opinions out. I never 3 point on purpose it can ruin your day real fast in off airport operations.
@@mauleguy I don’t disagree, but I think it’s funny how every instructor I have ever flown with insists on 3 point over wheel landing.
I agree with you Greg. I think I don't need to land any shorter than the takeoff run is going to be. I am from Argentina¨s North. Cropduster Bush pilot.
You make a good argument on the subject. Good video Greg!
All great. The only thing to note, is that a slat doesn't necessarily slow an airplane down in cruise. The one's airframes makes and you see on all the cubs does because they don't care about drag. Every large jet ever has slats, and they're causing no drag at all. Designed correctly, it would not be a cruise penalty. Still a weight penalty though.
All the slats currently offered for STOL airplanes slow their cruise but you are correct about the design could be incorporated into the wing without a speed penalty it just adds complexity to the process of building a wing.
@@mauleguy The slat on the Just Aircraft SS pivots flush w the wing, my cruise is 110 mph (180hp), land speed can be as low as 25.
I totally agree with your comment's
On high angle landings.
Thanks as this comes at a time I am transitioning to a new plane (Rans S-21) and it lands a lot different than the S-20. Great video as always. Love the informational/instruction videos
Glad it was helpful!
Very good insight
I agree. I don’t have them. I have a 150 hp wag aero. And good judgment and slips.
Very thought 💭 provoking info. Thanks for sharing your adventures.
Thanks for watching!
Very good point made. At high AOA you're on the back of the drag curve with a lot of power and the risk as shown of poor vis and a stall at height if you make a mistake. ( in rain this gets way worse) In my Cessna 180 I know how short I can land, so I land at places that work for my aircraft ... there's no hero points for trying to be a God pilot and coming up short on God skills and bending your plane. Practice, Practice and leave a margin in there for difficult landings. You have to know when the stall sound onset becomes the real thing and that better be in the last 6". Get a good instructor / mentor. Remember as we get older we may have the hours in the book but we aren't as quick hands and feet as we used to be. I've landed in some really short strips for my aircraft, where the margin has been to close... Its the scariest warning you will ever get ... I don't go back there again, don't need the stress or the potential to bend my plane.
I loved this video! Loved your take on slats, VG"s etc.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Couldn’t agree more with your comments Greg. Nice video thanks.
Thanks 👍
a T-tail configuration would reduce risk to the elevator and horizontal. Sailplanes use them for farm field landings.
True but then you don’t get the advantages of the prop blast on the elevator which is beneficial to pitch control at low speeds, I believe that is the primary reason you don’t see any T tail Stol aircraft
Correct. That is the only, only, only reason sailplanes have T-tales, since they add expense, complexity, and fragility.
Great video! love the information and it makes me think about what I want to do on my first build.
Glad to hear it!
Those are all my points against slats. Expecially uncommanded asymmetrical ones…terrible! Good job! I’m planning a video on this!
100% agree !
So interesting and thought provoking thankyou
awesome video. I'm new to aviation and this video mae a lot of sense to me. Thank you.
Great insight Greg. Makes perfect sense to me. I really enjoyed this one and learned something too. High AOA approaches to a landing look cool to me I must admit (I have probably watched that Super Cub video where he plops it down in the snow 10 times already) but for back country ops I can see that it isn't practical. That said I think "practical" may not be on the minds of many of the folks that build planes with them. Draco is a great example of that...I'm a Mike Patey fan and his planes are another level of engineering, but nothing practical about a 4 place million plus dollar bush plane. For that kind if dough I'd get a Super Cub, a Maule or 185, a bigger house, a few cars, and a couple of really expensive hookers.
Ok I wouldn't get the hookers I just thought that was funny.
Good one!
I have a video on my channel of a slatted wing Cub coming in super steep under power, and the engine coughed. He dropped it hard and would have bent some things if he hadn't be over 5' of snow. I've never flown slats but I've flown Cubs with a cuff and with slotted wings and I still like the stock wing best.
in flight sims i like high aoa with a steep descent, that way i still have energy to work with, or i do a low approach but save the high aoa for just before touchdown when theres ground effect
Only guys who fly truly off airport know that high angle of attack is worthless and will rip off tailwheels. I would love to see a video on your off airport 100 hr maintenance items you do.
I will do something on that. I do conditional inspections as required but whenever I have any reason to suspect a issue I dig into it. I always look the engine over very carefully at each oil change and look for obvious stuff each time I check the oil. Cub style cowlings are great for firewall forward inspections. I spend time throughout the year not just when required.
Great point! 🍀
I fully agree with you! This high AOA porn is good for youtube clips but dangerous and you’re more likely to damage your airplane using them to their full potential. I flew a french socata rallye long time ago, a low wing tricycle with slats. Flyable at full pull but you would hit the tail if you would try to land like that, so you wouldn’t land much slower than something comparable like a archer
Handly-Page slats are standard equipment on all Helio certified aircraft. Just had to correct one misstatement you made that "no certified aircraft has slats" in what is otherwise a fantastic video. Thanks.
Love it. Great explanation
Glad you enjoyed it!
I agree 100%…. And guys, don’t fly superstol airplanes. Visibility sucks.
great video as always. Would you mind elaborating on the mod that you did in your Maule? thanks again
Weight, visibility & control vs. benefit. Just a thought but why not a Peterson type Canard modification for STOL operations. Wouldn't that help for slower speeds, forward visibility, less added weight, more aileron control all within a STOL envelope? Without cruise speed loss. Seems to do a lot for nose heavy C182P?
This a great video on slats and the practical use of STOL techniques vs. the STOL competition style. Even landing tail low on the main wheels transitioning tail high, I have a difficult time seeing my point of touchdown. You quickly touched on your use of modified flaps and the idea of larger flaps seems like the key to a useful shot landing. You mentioned the use of VG's for low speed handing. Did you find better controllability with the VG's? I noticed that whit it slowed stall by maybe 7% the aileron and elevator at slower speed was much better allowing a slower approach.
I did not notice a huge difference on the Experimental Cub but there is some at that slower end just about the stall. On Bushwacker it is more noticeable and on a short wing Maule like an M5 they are a must have in my opinion.
I will now watch other bush flying videos to see if they are making wheel landings or high AOA.
“Slats are really not approved on any certified airplanes”. I know you’ve heard of a Helio. Lunch soon?
And. Unpause.
You got me on that one!
Stinson 108, Dornier Do-27/28,
Thought of a question for you out of left field...I like getting your perspective on different things. What do you think of the newer high performance composite props like Whirlwind propellers ?
Well that is a big subject. It would be awesome to get all the different propellers together and do testing on one aircraft. I have done some of my own testing of a few different propellers and I currently run a Borer 82/41 prop on the Cub (metal) and a constant speed compact Hartzell 80" (metal) on Bushwacker. That does not mean they are the best but between the 2 different composite propellers I tested on the two airplanes they won. Propellers can make or break the performance of an airplane and are often overlooked for what they can do.
Agreed.
You engineer and build that. And fly it.
What's the advantage of VGs if you've got slots or slats? Any quantitative data? Thanks!
Curious your thoughts on the slats used on the savage norden? They claim it lowers the angle of attack - I am newish pilot looking at planes that I will never be able to buy:). The norden seems affordable for a new plane. But. Just don’t know much about the company.
Thoughts on their approach to slats, flaps and AOA?
They use a slat and a double slotted flap. I don't have any first hand personal experience but I have a friend that has slats and double slotted flaps on his Super Cub and he says they do work well together without landing at extremely high angles of attack if you want. I would say from a safety stand point slats could have a positive effect for a low time pilot that might be flying on the edge.
I am just gonna give one argument: Superstol XL
The laxan floor should come with the slats lol. Must burn a pile more fuel. also Not handy in the real backcountry i wouldent guess.
LOW AND SLOW, "THE WAY TO GO." 😁👍✌️🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
I think so too!!!
Learned a lot from you and others about this subject. When i get started on my BH5 kit, we'll have a good chin wag about it. I'm already committed to the P-stols. Whats your take on flaps beginning a foot along the wing as opposed to snug against the fuselage? Would the foot away from the fuselage give you more airflow to the tail feathers?
I would not do it. Don't give up flap length. Even a stock cub as it came from Piper had about the first 4" of no flap but just fairing. Everyone changes that when the can.
@@mauleguy ok. Just keep a little more airspeed up.
Yeah it seems really sketchy. Going that slow you need a lot of skill, and probably some luck, to keep one tip from stalling first and ground looping.
I'd rather come in a little faster, little less AOA, be able to see, and not risk crashing my plane. Like you said, VGs and the airframes flaps would be a good setup I think.
👍
No no please analyze. I like to think I learn a lot from your videos. Before this video I thought slats were good.
Who has torn up more hardware, you or Patey?
hard to say, don't know what he has torn up... I know mine cost less money for sure:))
If you land at a place that requires you to land tail-first, it stands to reason you’ll never rotate without cutting a longer runway. Have you ever seen a UA-cam pilot with a chainsaw?
Thanks, I’d rather be flying out to a fishing spot than pushing the limits!
There are pigeons and eagles my friend, you are an eagle. Pigeons think about flying eagles always fly 😂😂
If you need to land that slow might as well get a helicopter