I really wish that people on the internet would understand these two simple facts: 1. You cannot treat fictional characters like real people. 2. You cannot treat real people like fictional characters.
@@horimiya7290i mean, to engage with the work is often to judge the characters in it, so i wouldn’t go that far. they just have to remember the person is fake and the creation of a real person lol
@@wesshiflet2214You absolutely can criticise the characters in the work, but meaningful criticism needs to include the fact that the character isn't a real, independent person with their own internal thoughts and feelings. No one's cancelling Snow White *the person* but this TikTokker seems to think they are, when the actual criticism is of the textual depiction of a fictional character.
No, this tiktokker doesn't think the real human snow white is being cancelled. She is defending the writing, she knows it's fictional, do you want her to stop every minute and say "but remember these cartoon characters aren't real"?
@@oontgrad But her criticism is based on the assumption that Snow White has agency and doesn't in any way account for the fact that her character was written by a male run company invested in maintaining the patriarchal status quo. It wilfully ignores the key limitation of choice feminism - the failure to account for external factors that pressure choice towards traditional gender roles - even in this most extreme case where the character in question literally has no choice because they aren't real. There's no requirement to explicitly remind everyone that the character is fictional, but the argument itself depends on an assumption that the character has real thoughts and feelings so implicitly treats her as real. That's the issue.
Snow White is literally the most vulnerable to feminist critique of the Disney princess “brand” imo - she’s uniquely not a character next to the 2010s leads or the Disney Renaissance princesses or even Cinderella, she sort of feels like an abstract ideal of womanhood, a kind of natural force that exists to civilize men. Fun fact - apparently in the codified version of the fairytale, Snow White asks the Huntsman for mercy and he complies, while in the Disney version he just can’t bring himself to do it. It’s the smallest opportunity for agency and it’s not taken
I can't remember what video I was watching, but it talked about how Snow White in the Disney movie was less meant to be a character and more supposed to be a nostalgic depiction of femininity and motherhood in the Great Depression. At a time when very few households could afford to have a wife stay at home and mind the house and kids, Snow White acting as the dwarves' was meant to hearken back to something that was lost during the 30s (of course it was only lost if you were middle class, but that's another story)
Snow White, Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty and Ariel aren't really the protagonists of their movies. The first three because they're basically just going about their business while other people act on them, and the last because it's more focused on the King.
Even beyond the Disney brand, the story is ripe for feminist deconstruction. The whole concept of a Queen so obsessed with looks she sees other women as competition and would murder just to be the most beautiful woman, and the fact that Snow White's beauty is genuinely powerful enough to change men's hearts, and that is literally her only quality that matters to people, including a Prince who falls in love without even talking to her, feels untapped.
@RickJames189 you are making up a girl to get mad at - there is no mention of progress or positive social change but just a comparison between different forms of characterization (*not* their physical depictions btw, entirely different conversation!). Disney is definitionally un-feminist as a corporate entity but this video and the above posts are talking about narrative criticism, not the nebulous idea of a media role model, come on now
I also feel like there's just no middle ground, cause when someone says something along the lines of "hey lets discuss this through a feminist lense", it just translates in people's minds to "THEYRE TRYING TO CANCEL SNOW WHITE CAUSE SHE ISNT A WOKE TRANS PERSON" or whatever. Like art is meant to be critiqued and discussed, and not every attempt to do that is an attempt at "cancellation"
So many people hear "let's discuss the problematic aspects of this work of art" as "you're a terrible person if you dare enjoy this" and it's so incredibly tiresome
Humanity has always struggled with gray areas, not sure why, I guess greed and fear have an important role and we are taught to hate and ridiculize the oppossing opinion from the day we are born, so I feel that most people can't handle the idea of balance because it would benefit the "rival", and its better to go down in flames than share a sunny day with your enemy
An element I think sometimes gets overlooked is that women who want to be homemakers will be so regardless of characters in movies because it's culturally acceptable, but women who have latent aspirations to be something else may very well be inspired by unconventional role models in film.
Also, the pressure that some women in liberal spaces may feel against living more traditional lifestyles is not equivalent to the pressure that conservatives (particularly evangelicals) put on women to do so.
@@edgarallenhoe3518 Especially when that pressure is backed up by public policy and law, as the evangelical conservative types so often push for. In (I believe) Wisconsin, they only recently decriminalized unmarried opposite-sex cohabitation, and literally there were a handful of conservatives voting for it because "it isn't right to live like that". There is just no equivalence to liberals maybe being like "girl make your OWN money" ffs
It is a bonkers take to suggest that feminists cannot criticise the depiction of Disney princesses, there is so much feminist literature on that very topic.
ikr? there’s very much a popular ethos of “it’s just a cartoon, don’t overthink it” as if A. media being consumed by that many people isn’t worth critical evaluation or B. the very people doing that analysis aren’t often Disney fans themselves
All she's doing is defining feminism in a way that coincidentally aligns perfectly with her own view of what is feminist. It's the "No true Scotsman" fallacy. Or "Scotswoman" in this case?
didn't recently there was a highly produced song that was all over tiktok that did the same critique and was highly acclaimed by everyone because it was not from a self-Identified feminist and was just branded as a apolitical song. it was something like "Disney-Disney you tricked me tricked me"
making a live action adaptation of a movie and changing the story, changing defining parts of the characters, and hiring an actress that keeps saying how she hates the original is kind of dumb
"staying kind and having good heart in the face of abuse" Girl... If Cinderella was a boy, it would be a movie about rebellion and escape while also keeping good heart and kindness
Nah if Cinderella were a boy it would be a really morally bankrupt revenge story zack sneider style, which is it's own bag kf worms in gendered messaging
Literally that wasn’t even her motto till the live action remake (which made her into even more of the “perfect victim”) like in the cartoon she got angry and upset, but had no autonomy, but they’re trying to push the idea that if ur not a passive victim, ur a bad person, unworthy of saving
And they're advocating for it as if it's a counter cultural idea. Thinking of themselves as marginalised or a minority. For example, people saying "it's okay to be straight." Just a little bit of positive media representation, and they feel as if the entire world is against them.
That's not what she said though. Not everything has to be so extreme. The point is that, if you do see a woman who wants the 1950s lifestyle, it's not feminist to tell her that she's not girl boss enough for the 2020s.
@@DoubLLwhich is true but it’s not a good response to the general idea of critiquing golden-age disney princesses, only ones that are specifically about that, like the one implied in the actress’s comments she’s initially responding to.
The tiktokker was responding to the woman in the beginning who was absolutely implying that. I don't think she was arguing against feminism in general especially considering she said "x is not feminism" implying she supports feminism but not what the woman in the beginning said.
I'm a woman that very much wants a kind of tradlife; I want to get married, i want to have kids, would love to be a SAHM if i could afford it. I love baking and being in my own little space. But the biggest pushback against this has always been that i'm a lesbian and therefore shouldn't get married, or have kids, etc. I've had people tell me staying at home because i'm autistic is selfish and unproductive I don't feel threated by critiques of Disney femininity at all, when it would never support my femininity
"if I could afford it" is the operative statement there. Nobody would judge you if you had all the receipts to back up this lifestyle but unfortunately the value of labour and free time against societal standards make it so that traditional lifestyles require "traditional" incomes which are growing further and further out of reach. As an aspiring stay at home husband I wish us luck on our quests 🫡
Im sorry that people tell youthat, its not true and although homemaking is often forced onto womenit is still a very respectable role if someone chooses to play it.
Hey little Joel, I think she did sneak in a good point at the end there, in modern movies nobody bats an eye at men who’s core struggle is to find love, but I think as some sort of pendulum reaction to older problematic tropes, a woman who’s core struggle is that, is definitely going raise some eyebrows
And I’ll stipulate that I mean this for stories about heterosexual love, because being gay has its own struggles, stories about finding gay love are different, no one but right wing chuds get mad about lesbians seeking love in movies
I think it's certainly possible to write a character with seeking romantic love as their central conflict without, like, reducing them to that (and their attractiveness) being the only defining aspect of their character. If a real person were to have that as literally their only motivation in life I think others would rightfully question the healthiness of that, regardless of gender identity.
So what if it raises eyebrows, tho? If that's a story you want to tell, tell the story. If it's not popular with audiences for themes they don't like, well tough luck, then.
@@insu_na of course, I think you’re missing my point here, I’m not saying you can’t, I’m just saying a double standard exists that favors modern movies about men wanting to find a woman over the reverse
You make a great central point that I hadn’t actually considered. Of course true feminism is allowing women to be homemakers if THEY truly want to, but the story of Snow White was created by people who believed that EVERY woman should be like Snow White and want nothing more than love and a committed partner. I’m a sappy romantic and a monogamist, but that doesn’t mean I want to relate to a character written by and for a misogynistic society just because she shares those ideals
I think the focus on individual empowerment over societal change is a big problem with feminism (as represented by social media hot takes) right now. Any statement about broader issues is immediately jumped on by people who take it as a personal attack.
“True feminism” isn’t about personal choice to be a homemaker🙄 It’s about systems, patriarchy, disenfranchisement on that basis, and the interlocking oppressions that weave into this societal basis. When people bring this up-they’re told “how DARE you insult stay-at-home moms” or whatever tf and it’s bs meant to derail any real conversation engaging meaning OR it’s one of these “I’m not like “not like other girls” girls! I’m not a pick me! Look at how much I’m not a pick me!” Girls. They’re disingenuous or duped and either way it’s embarrassing how much they harm ppl with a whisper of gender non-conformity, by saying “their presentation hurts (REAL) feminine women😢”. It’s giving terf honestly.
I remember in my younger days I'd roll my eyes at people saying that Disney princess movies were sexist. But I recently watched The Princess and the Frog (the first classic Disney Princess movie I've ever seen all the way through) and BOY those critiques were right. Tiana was here as a black woman in post-Civil War Louisiana working to fulfill the dream she shared with her dead father of opening up her own restaurant, but the lesson she had to learn was that what was *really* important was that she get married at 19.
I saw a good post abt this basically saying... yeah of course there's nothing wrong with wanting to fall in love? nobody ever said there was? in fact the prevailing idea in the patriarchal society we live in is that you SHOULD want that... so it's weird to suddenly try to present the mainstream idea as something radical that needs saying
Honestly redoing little mermaid but have it be a horror movie about a prince being obsessed by a mermaids voice and slowly being consumed until he drowns himself and is reborn as a zombie to work for the underwater kingdom as they take over the above ground is the remake I’m cheering for.
oh fuck! Yo, don't stop there, do it both narratives at once! Ariel's stuck on land as a mute, and Eric's stuck working for her dad as a zombie, and then for some weird reason they still have to find each other to break the curses.
by the way badass Snow White already exists in a show that was created in 2011 called Once Upon A Time, and i think they did a great job at balancing her character of being a loving doormat (for lack of a better word) and someone who can be independant and fight her own battles. it's also just generally a good show :)
Ngl, I relate to Ariel, she wanted so badly to be a part of a world she felt she'd be more comfortable in that she was willing to give up her voice. The prince was an element of her choice, but the majority of her story pre-transformation was focused more on being a human than being with the prince. If I had the chance to make a faustian bargain to skip to the end of my own process of change, I 100% would. Doesn't even matter what I'd have to give up for it. The rest of the movie after meeting the prince did go off into "Disney is trying to force their ship to be canon" territory though. I really wish Disney would stop that. Nightmare Before Christmas, Chicken Little, even Frozen despite so much of that movie seemingly being a critique of Disney's past tradition of insisting all Disney princesses have a love interest, only then to do exactly that after Anna's entire arc was literally about how love isn't that sort of instant happy ever after just add water cup ramen that could be cooked over the course of a single movie. Shoutouts to Mulan for having the old outdated people be the ones doing the shipping at the end of the movie.
n the original Little Mermaid by Hans Christian Andersen her motivation for going to the surface was to obtain a soul so she could get to the afterlife. Marriage was a convenient way for her to do this, but her motivation was her own spiritual empowerment and not love. Disney Studios made the deliberate decision to cut that part out and turn it into the story of a woman making huge personal sacrifices purely for the sake of a man, and that 100% deserves to be called out as anti-feminist.
“You’re criticising women for things that men get to do unquestioned.” Dude, if I ever see a teenage boy singing into a well about his wish for true love to find him, I’d be at least a little bit concerned. Like maybe don’t just passively wait for it to find you? Maybe just be a man (sarcasm intended) and go find it yourself?
As long as the main political project of such pernicious figures as matt walsh and jack posobiec are transfixed by movies made for children I’m generally happy regardless of filmic content
Wow, this lady could talk about how Beauty and the Beast isn't about an abusive relationship (a take I completely agree with), but not only not explain how - but it would be in a video about Spider-man with her level of off-topic-ness. Also if a 1937 movie was about a man singing about longing for a lady to come and save him unironically - that would be considered either "weird" or "outright absurd" because the patriarchy effects men as well and has certain ideals about what a man should be like. So no it's not just something a man could do without blinking - freaking inane take. Though I do LOVE the idea of someone trying to explain how Disney's Snow White is actually super feminist ya'll (evil queen is a girl boss!)
If she wants to watch a movie about the virtues of homemakers than there is this little company called uh I think “Walt Disney” and there are a bunch of old movies I think one of them is called “Snow White” from the 30s that she might like. In the meantime I am glad for a new take
i find the insistence of the disney remakes to set out to "fix" the originals almost as annoying as choice feminists insistence that the originals were actually _secretly feminist all along._ no they weren't but neither is disney's #girlboss brand of feminism imo
Thank youuuuu this is exactly what has been bothering me about this backlash (that and the obvious excuse to be misogynistic toward Rachel). I think it's so funny when THE most superficial analysts of patriarchy claim that it's actually the complex feminist critique that is superficial. Like, yes, actually, critiquing white male writers' portrayals of women as obedient, kind, naive, and centering their lives around men is, in fact, feminist.
Imagine a role reversal with snow and the prince A guy who only wants to fall in love and gets poisoned to be unconscious for half the movie while the princess has to save him. Conservatives would explode. But oh why? Would you deny a man the right to love??
Ken in Barbie movie was essentially male version of that, a man who only wanted to fall in love and live with Barbie, no other ambitions, no personality aside from that, and right wing men called this "man-hating" :D But Barbie movie was more generous than the Disney princess movies is to women, in the end it gave the message that Ken is more than that, he has value as a person, separate of his love life.
Responding to commercialized girlboss pseudo-feminist with over-the-top choice feminist talking points is certainly a move. Like, "Snow White is gonna want to be a leader in our version" is pretty cringe, but Snow White is 100% open to feminist critique, it IS a 1930s adaptation of a 1700s story that is rooted in traditional gender roles.
4:00 "we completely write off Cinderellas incredible ability to be walked all over and treated like garbage. We as women should all aspire to be treated so poorly, and to do so with pride." Like wtf are you on lady? Lay off it and log off.
People don't control whether they're treated like garbage. They control whether they remain a good person in spite of their situation. That's the point being made
@@itsthedeek234ah yes, and the only way to remain good when you're being abused is to let the abuse happen and not defend yourself. What a great point!!! I'm sure this won't alienate victims of abuse who made the choice to fight back.
So if I’m reading this right, the remake will have Snow White oust and replace the Evil Queen after her assassination plot fails. Now, I’m not going to say I hate this decision as it’s a fairly common and effective fantasy narrative. But as an anti-Monarchist, I’m fatigued by benevolent dictator narratives. The system is inherently evil and replacing a cruel ruler with a kind one doesn’t change the fact it’s still monarchy. But I’m a crazy person who expects anti-monarchy themes to be in a fantasy movie so whatever
Most of the feminist commentaries on these Disney princess remake situations, at least on social media, are incredibly shallow and drive me insane. Regardless of which way they lean on the issue
Wait, in English "Snow White" are 2 different words???!! Does that mean that that White is her surname?? Does it mean that she is Ms. White?? Does it mean.... Mr. White would be her husband?? "Sneezy. We need to cook, Sneezy" Ok my brain is rotten, I know. This was my requiem: write this entire comment on my tombstone
Idk why disney has to keep being like "this princess is NOT like the other princesses! Shed not a typical disney princess!" We have had SO many disney girls who can fight and do girlboss stuff and dont need a man etc. Its not a shocking change of pace anymore! Its been decades since it would have been.
Forgive me if this has been addressed somewhere in a comment section… but what’s up with the cabinet door being open? Is it some sort of Kubrickian subliminal messaging? Why? Why is it open? What does it signify???
Even some of my favorite creators have been getting in on this "rachel zegler is being SO harmful to women!" thing and it's so wild and disappointing to see.
Never thought of Dumbo as a “man” but now I feel we were robbed of a direct to VHS sequel where hunky adult Dumbo saves the circus and sweeps a lady acrobat around romantically with his masculine trunk
That's how I feel about Attack on Titan. "Eren had no choice," the author literally created a convoluted scenario to justify him (never in real history has the people with the means to commit genocide been the oppressed, it has always been the oppressor killing the oppressed, yet here we have a story where it's the oppressed that are the ones powerful enough to kill everyone and somehow they have no other choice?) and even then I feel like they could not adequately justify Eren's actions. But you have so many people acting like Eren is a real person driven to awful things and not a character in a story explicitly written to promote nationalistic worldviews by a person who like anyone else (surprise, surprise!) has his own personal political opinions.
@@greyfox4838 This is such a random topic to bring up but I'm so glad I'm not alone in feeling uncomfortable with the scenario. A world where the systemically oppressed gain the ability to violently fight back is a cool premise, but it's done so poorly and clearly as just a method to justify Isayama's latent nationalist ideas (even if unintentionally--he did have the obvious fascists like Flegel be the villains).
making a live action adaptation of a movie and changing the story, changing defining parts of the characters, and hiring an actress that keeps saying how she hates the original is kind of dumb
I think you missed an important counter to the video you’re responding too - when feminists critically examine Disney princess movies, they’re not criticizing women (real or fictional) - they’re criticizing the men who made these movies
Ohh yeah, I had a feeling there was just a little something more to add and this was it. People so so often boil down critique of fictional characters to judging that kind of person. It's the same with race, whenever you say that something seems to be inspired by real world racial stereotypes (especially a fantasy race, eg certain depictions of orcs and goblins) people will say 'oh, so you think black people are just like orcs??' and it's so clearly missing the point!!
And criticizing those men can also coexist with being annoyed af at the pseudo-feminist, profit-hungry "snow white was broken but we fixed it by making her badass" narrative. Just one time I'd love to see someone, preferably not a man, try to reimagine something like snow white without completely changing the character into a no nonsense ass kicker
Yeah it's implicit in the tiktoker's arguments that people critiquing these films are attacking disney princesses as people, rather than discussing the values that the characters/narratives seem to uphold. She's treating character behavior as naturally occurring rather than constructed by artists to generate meaning. It reminds me of the old Dan Olson video "The Thermian Argument."
"I could literally write a PhD thesis" is a really bold way to preface your obtusely surface-level analysis of a Disney film and I envy that confidence tbh
I love how this tired ass “guys not all women want to be leaders some want true love🥺🥺🥺” take always assumes the two are diametrically opposed and it’s impossible to want both or neither
She isn't saying that at all, she was responding to the woman who was implying that making her a leader was necessary for the modern version. How do people keep missing this...
@@oontgraddid you watch the video? In that response she doesn’t even address the fact that it’s a fictional movie and pretends the feminists are just out here attacking an individual woman for her choices. She says “not every woman wants power… it’s not anti-feminist to want to fall in love/get married/stay at home” as if literally anyone was saying that
@zoologistsnightmare What do you even mean "by she doesn't even address the fact that it's a fictional movie" ITS A CARTOON. She doesn't have to. We inherently know they are fictional characters, she doesn't have to say it. People in these comments making this criticism are just trying to infantilize her. She knows and the audience knows she is talking about fictional characters, it doesn't have to be said. And yes, there IS a lot of bad, reductive criticism of disney princesses. She was responding to what Rachel Zegler said about how this snow white WASN'T going to be dreaming about true love and WAS going to be dreaming about being a leader as if this is an inherent improvement of a problematic piece of the first film.
@@oontgrad Actually it is important to make the distinction because the tiktoker here is misrepresenting the “feminist” argument as an attack on real individual women with agency as opposed to the movie itself as a reflection of cultural ideals and the way women are perceived. Of course everyone knows it’s fake. That’s missing the point entirely. Saying feminists are unfairly “criticizing disney PRINCESSES” instead of “criticizing Disney princess MOVIES” is reductive and shifts the conversation to the personal choices of real women with free will, which no one was criticizing in the first place. It’s just easier to tear that idea down than contending with the actual argument. Also, you’ll notice my original comment isn’t just defending Zegler. She’s still implying that women must choose between romance and a career whereas I’m saying they can coexist.
Upon seeing this video in my subscription feed, I felt an alien compulsion, something outside of my mind and body entirely, driving me to click on it. I don't know what dark magic Little Joel has employed, but there's no denying the raw magnetism of the new thumbnails.
It's been 9 years since gamergate and "If you were a feminist you'd RESPECT the choices of these fictional women (written by men)" is still an argument somehow.
It sound like she watched that Lindsay Ellis video on the issues with making Disney Princesses "woke" but missed about half of every point Lindsay made.
Remember that gamergoogoogaga never ended. It was funneled into the neo-Nazis and created the alt-right. Folks can say that's not what happened, but they'd be objectively wrong.
"Fictional characters are not real people, judging them isn't the same as judging the actions of real women, and because of this you know it makes sense to point to patterns, ideology." THIS, A THOUSAND TIMES THIS
How is that your takeaway from this? She is reacting to the person in the beginning who seemed to be implying that the film MUST make Snow White baddass, which even little Joel agrees is bad. Her criticism isn't as nuanced as it could possibly be but women can be homemakers and not be interested in leadership etc, and it is NOT anti-feminist to say so.
Being submissive in certain circumstances isn't inherently wrong the same goes for being assertive. There is a tendency to downplay oppression in Disney films and sugarcoat reality but I don't agree with denigrating anything because it's traditionally feminine.
@@oontgradThat’s not what she said at all. She said "it's no longer 1937, we wrote a snow white who [won't be saved by the prince, wants to be a leader]". She's describing the film and how it brings something new to the character because she wants to promote the film, and the reason she says "it's no longer 1937" is because you wouldn't be able to write a movie like that in 1937.
@@pepijnstreng4643 Well youd be able to write it, but good luck getting it made into a movie. Itd be one of those underground books, like how queer literature was.
I love when people are so deep in an internet echo chamber they start loudly advocating for the status quo as if it's a radical counter cultural stance. "Let 👏 women👏 be👏 feminine 👏." etc.
The main problem with Snow White is that it's basically a series of episodes where the Evil Queen tries to murder her and fails in various ways, which really isn't that compelling beyond the realm of a bedtime story. So instead of that, just give the girl some agency. Then again, Neil Gaiman had to turn her into a monster just to get the plot to work, so how about we stop resurrecting century-old stories and write some new- oh right, you don't want to pay the writers.
That was probably the reason the Big Mouse pushed for 100 year copyright in the first place. Disney never wanted to make P.L. Travers' Mary Poppins, never wanted to make H.C. Anderson's Little Mermaid, or Grimm's Cinderella, etc etc, he just wanted to corner the market on derivations of them in perpetuity.
We could also finally start adapting stories from outside of the generic European canon. There are some really fun and wild ancient tales from all over the world that could be made into interesting adaptations! I wanna see Coyote, Anansi, Amaterasu, Fox Spirits, pre-Christian Norse stuff, pagan tales, Tlaloc, Atabey, Gilgamesh! Gimme some of the stuff that d-bag Joseph Campbell purposely left out of his stupid "Hero's Journey" nonsense!
@@Arosukir6I mean why do you think anime are popular. That. And gilgamesh, is the basis for both m8st romances and bromances. And probably why there is so much shipping in the first place unintentional. And did invent the enemies to lovers trope. Maybe.
While I feel the movie is technically super impressive, the actual storyline is very boring, there didn’t need to be a 10 minute scene of the dwarves washing up, it served zero purpose to the plot, I respect the film more then I like it
It is the attitude of the makers of the film (the main actress in interviews, for example) that pursuing a man is a sign of lack of independence. It is they who are saying the two are opposites, and thus, through their attitudes and value judgements, they are "denying women" in this respect. If the main character values being a leader more than finding a man, and if the makers of the film say that this is good because shows independence of the main character, then yes, logically speaking, the makers of the movie are denying women pride in pursuing a man.
@@larbot3433 no it isn't, she was responding to Rachel Zegler saying this snow white WASN'T going to be dreaming about falling in love and WAS going to be dreaming about being a leader as if it were an inherent improvement of a problematic piece of the first film.
While I don't know if Disney is going to deliver, a Snow White retelling where a teenage princess is exiled by her stepmother and ends up staying with a working class family (the dwarves) which leads her to plot a revolution to improve the lives of people of lower social classes and becoming a fair and just queen or even changing the system entirely would be a pretty compelling movie
I don’t get the “let women be feminine” crap I’ve been seeing more of recently. That’s literally the status quo; most women in media are feminine in some way. It just feels like a reactionary pushback against female characters breaking gender roles, and the fact that a lot of supposed “progressives” are using that line of reasoning is very concerning.
I think its just let some female characters be feminine without shame. Just because a character is girly doesnt mean its not progressive. Not every female character needs to exist to send a message
I would say that none of the Disney movies or princesses are inherently bad on their own but that fact that it was a pattern that that was the sole way women were portrayed in media for a while is the problem. If you want to write a story about a “trad” woman I don’t think there is anything inherently wrong with that. But we should still advocate for having more diversity in the way women are portrayed in media.
yeah, like, thats actually what makes it more dificult to convince people, you cant easilly pin point a movie which would be very obviouslly antifeminist but the whole of it is, its like numbers and math, people who can understand it understand the general rules of numbers and stuff, and people who cant, would do examples instead of trying to generalise
you know, this weekend, I was strolling about and overhead some kids playing. A boy was talking about Spiderman, and a little girl said "I can be the girl Spiderman" which honestly made me smile. It was interesting to reflect on.
I think finally the movies have started to include references to the female spider folk that have been in the comics cannon for ages, so it might be as little as that; yay representation. Or it may be she was coming to it of her own volition, in which case, more power to her!
i wish we could get back to playing pretend it was genuenlly fun, im sad that ive grown up lol, ( i know i can still play it being older but its better with friends)
@@marmolejomartinezjoseemili9043Dungeons & Dragons (and really any other Table Top Role-Playing Game) is a lot like playing pretend but for grown-ups, if you want to find a way to do it with friends
The thing is, some of the early Disney princesses are weak and sappy even when compared to the heroines of other folktales. For example, Cinderella is a retelling by Charles Perrault of a tale found in literally thousands of versions in numerous cultures around the world, and Cinders is one of the absolute drippiest of all of them. In most versions of the story the Cinderella character is shown to deal with hardship with stoicism and resilience and uses her brains and charm to win the Prince as well as her looks. The Perrault version just gives her a fairy Godmother to sort it all out for her. That's the one Disney picked, not any of the versions where the heroine has any agency at all. There are loads and loads of folk tales with smart, tough and resourceful heroines, going back literally hundreds of years, but for decades, Disney went out of their way to pick tales with some of the most pathetic and helpless heroines in the folk tale canon precisely because they wanted to convey conservative social attitudes in their films. It was very much a conscious choice, and one that they have belatedly realised needed correcting.
@wesshiflet2214 idk about America, but here in Denmark, I got the story where the birds plucked the sisters' eyes out lol, no fairy in sight. Didn't get the r*pe stories of sleeping beauty and snow white though, thank goodness
i really like the russian one where she gets the magic dress and jewelry and the prince but then fucks it up and has to fix it on her own without magic and she has to go on a quest to get her prince back. I always felt like it was a far more satisfying "and then what" that gave her a lot of character, that she got a taste of life outside her terrible family and had to fight for it. Edit to add, i grabbed my russian fairy tale book off the shelf and its called "the feather from finist the falcon"
I can understand where you are coming from but to say the animated Cinderella had no resilience, agency, or fight, is a common argument I will never understand. You have whatever stance you want on the fairy God mother being a deus ex machna of sorts. Quite valid actually. But the 50s Cinderella fought back her abuse with hope, faith and her imagination and sure call it cheesy what you will but she wasn't waiting because she didn't actually think the prince nor the fairy God mother was going to come. I'm just Quite tried of the narrative that the more passive Cinderella is weak because she was passive in her ways of fighting the abuse. And did they choose a passive Cinderella on purpose because that's what the ol white men were probably most comfortable with? Yeah probably but that does not make even the most passive one "pathetic".
I think that in the end people are so tired of "girlboss feminism" that they are unconsciously admiting conservative (or at least poor critics that fall in conservative leaning) points in their retoric as a response, without realizing. It's the same thing with "Sex scene in movies" discourse, when you see.
Maybe conservatives do have a point? It seems silly to immediately dismiss everything conservative's say just because they're the ones saying it. A lot of feminists movies seem to pushing an ideological perspective that seems to condemn traditional femininity. Yeah Joel is right, none of these movies are "real" and are about "real people." But there are many traditional women who embrace traditional femininity and can identify with characters like Cinderella and Snow White. Pushing an idea that something is inherently flawed about these characters isn't really uplifting to women, it's stepping on 'different women for the sake of women you more closely align with 'modern' values.
But these movies aren’t for those women. They’re for little girls. I think that the prominent messaging to them shouldn’t be that the goal in life should be to make yourself financially dependent on a partner and become a passive spectator to your own life in a way (thinking of the really old Disney movies in particular, lead characters have things happen to them more so than that they ever act on their own). Now ideally we would do that not by making terrible movies that seem to try and rectify every possibly criticism someone would have had regarding the original, but that’s what you get from a brand more focused on their image than creating interesting movies. There are enough movies that achieve agency, financial independence and love and marriage and children for their female characters that are also directed more or less at children, such as the absolute masterpiece of filmmaking that is Shrek. I personally don’t think we need more acceptance of children and marriage in this world, as it’s a pretty common and established path for people to follow, but I’m also not personally a big fan of choice feminism either, so I guess we’ll agree to disagree on that point. Shrek has you covered either way.
@@NomastiAfricanWarlord no one is truly being "stepped on" for following gender norms and maintaining the status quo. choice feminism doesn't do anything, it doesn't truly challenge or change anything because it is choice feminism. it is not "silly" to criticize an ideology when it's shared by those who believe women should maintain a certain role and stay in their place according to traditional social ideals. women who don't fit into traditional molds of feminity will always be criticized and alientated more than a woman who literally just follows the status quo. I'm unsure of why you're so focused on this nonissue of people being "shamed" for following gender norms when that's really not happening here, especially not on a systematic level. ultimately we should be aiming to eradicate those norms just let people do what they wish to do without any patriarchal influence and i don't particularly care to validate women for literally just being traditional and upholding those norms.
@@bootalophosaurus2378 WTF is "choice feminism" and who or what coined this seemingly sneaky-ass term? The whole point of feminism was in opening avenues for choice that were unavailable due to totalitarian patriarchy. This sounds like one of those cases where the redundancy circles back on itself to undo meaning.
The thing that drives me nuts about this is the black-and-white way it's stated. Instead of "some feminist takes on Disney princesses were/are lazy and shallow" we have this claim that you CANNOT criticize Disney movies as a feminist.
I like that she says she could write a PhD thesis about the topic, as if anyone would agree to supervise a PhD candidate with no media literacy who seems to think fictional characters have their own agency.
Where did she imply this? She didn't. I mean come on, people discuss media and characters all the time and they don't pause every minute to say "but let's remember, these characters are not real, and we are actually discussing the writing rather than real people". People don't say this because it's obvious. Yet so many people in these comments are saying what you are saying. She knows she's discussing media. Obviously
@@Meurth she is not "so upset", she made a video about criticism she disagrees with. How is this complicated? She is not confused about cartoon characters being real.
the real pseudofeminism is defending disney princesses on tiktok when abortion rights are being stripped away globally. "Let women be feminine!!!" chronically online bs
why would she talk about abortion rights in response to a video about disney princesses? this is whataboutism. there are always going to be bigger problems in the world. it's not anyone's job to divert mostly-useless internet infighting to systemic issues they largely have no control over. do keep in mind that these are just regular people. tik tokers are not celebrities, they are not famous, they for the most part do not expect to have a large platform or outreach.
this is the biggest whatabout-ism ive ever seen like holy shit. this is like debating who would win 1 billon lions or one of every pokemon, and then someone says you should be protesting against the war in ukraine, with the vauge connection being that if the lions and pokemon fought it would also be a war.
@@ectoskeletal I agree. We are allowed to discuss gender roles in children's media while also being critical of human rights violations. Most feminists do both already.
@@ectoskeletal There wasn't a single point shown from the tik tok video that couldn't have come from some alt right trad account. Pseudofeminist seems pretty accurate. Abortion rights were mentioned here as an indicator of prevailing cultural attitudes, which is relevant because the tik tok video tries to claim there is a prevailing cultural attitude against traditional femininity (there isn't)
I really wish that people on the internet would understand these two simple facts:
1. You cannot treat fictional characters like real people.
2. You cannot treat real people like fictional characters.
Yes yes yes.
Stop holding fictional characters to real human judgement. It’s how people end up writing such boRING CHARACTERS.
@@horimiya7290i mean, to engage with the work is often to judge the characters in it, so i wouldn’t go that far. they just have to remember the person is fake and the creation of a real person lol
@@wesshiflet2214You absolutely can criticise the characters in the work, but meaningful criticism needs to include the fact that the character isn't a real, independent person with their own internal thoughts and feelings. No one's cancelling Snow White *the person* but this TikTokker seems to think they are, when the actual criticism is of the textual depiction of a fictional character.
No, this tiktokker doesn't think the real human snow white is being cancelled. She is defending the writing, she knows it's fictional, do you want her to stop every minute and say "but remember these cartoon characters aren't real"?
@@oontgrad But her criticism is based on the assumption that Snow White has agency and doesn't in any way account for the fact that her character was written by a male run company invested in maintaining the patriarchal status quo. It wilfully ignores the key limitation of choice feminism - the failure to account for external factors that pressure choice towards traditional gender roles - even in this most extreme case where the character in question literally has no choice because they aren't real. There's no requirement to explicitly remind everyone that the character is fictional, but the argument itself depends on an assumption that the character has real thoughts and feelings so implicitly treats her as real. That's the issue.
Snow White is literally the most vulnerable to feminist critique of the Disney princess “brand” imo - she’s uniquely not a character next to the 2010s leads or the Disney Renaissance princesses or even Cinderella, she sort of feels like an abstract ideal of womanhood, a kind of natural force that exists to civilize men. Fun fact - apparently in the codified version of the fairytale, Snow White asks the Huntsman for mercy and he complies, while in the Disney version he just can’t bring himself to do it. It’s the smallest opportunity for agency and it’s not taken
yea, she feels more like an idea than a person in the movie tbh
I can't remember what video I was watching, but it talked about how Snow White in the Disney movie was less meant to be a character and more supposed to be a nostalgic depiction of femininity and motherhood in the Great Depression. At a time when very few households could afford to have a wife stay at home and mind the house and kids, Snow White acting as the dwarves' was meant to hearken back to something that was lost during the 30s (of course it was only lost if you were middle class, but that's another story)
Snow White, Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty and Ariel aren't really the protagonists of their movies. The first three because they're basically just going about their business while other people act on them, and the last because it's more focused on the King.
Even beyond the Disney brand, the story is ripe for feminist deconstruction. The whole concept of a Queen so obsessed with looks she sees other women as competition and would murder just to be the most beautiful woman, and the fact that Snow White's beauty is genuinely powerful enough to change men's hearts, and that is literally her only quality that matters to people, including a Prince who falls in love without even talking to her, feels untapped.
@RickJames189 you are making up a girl to get mad at - there is no mention of progress or positive social change but just a comparison between different forms of characterization (*not* their physical depictions btw, entirely different conversation!). Disney is definitionally un-feminist as a corporate entity but this video and the above posts are talking about narrative criticism, not the nebulous idea of a media role model, come on now
more like snow woke 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 i miss my wife
your cats are incredibly cute
The pfp of Clay makes this comment better
MGTOW, BROETHER
@@EdricCoconutLMAI
Please bring the kids back
I also feel like there's just no middle ground, cause when someone says something along the lines of "hey lets discuss this through a feminist lense", it just translates in people's minds to "THEYRE TRYING TO CANCEL SNOW WHITE CAUSE SHE ISNT A WOKE TRANS PERSON" or whatever. Like art is meant to be critiqued and discussed, and not every attempt to do that is an attempt at "cancellation"
"Maybe this character should have stuff to do in the story" LITERALLY 1984!
So many people hear "let's discuss the problematic aspects of this work of art" as "you're a terrible person if you dare enjoy this" and it's so incredibly tiresome
came here to say this, so I'll just add a comment to draw more attention
Humanity has always struggled with gray areas, not sure why, I guess greed and fear have an important role and we are taught to hate and ridiculize the oppossing opinion from the day we are born, so I feel that most people can't handle the idea of balance because it would benefit the "rival", and its better to go down in flames than share a sunny day with your enemy
a lot of critique is done out of love for the source material
An element I think sometimes gets overlooked is that women who want to be homemakers will be so regardless of characters in movies because it's culturally acceptable, but women who have latent aspirations to be something else may very well be inspired by unconventional role models in film.
Also, the pressure that some women in liberal spaces may feel against living more traditional lifestyles is not equivalent to the pressure that conservatives (particularly evangelicals) put on women to do so.
@@edgarallenhoe3518 Especially when that pressure is backed up by public policy and law, as the evangelical conservative types so often push for. In (I believe) Wisconsin, they only recently decriminalized unmarried opposite-sex cohabitation, and literally there were a handful of conservatives voting for it because "it isn't right to live like that". There is just no equivalence to liberals maybe being like "girl make your OWN money" ffs
It is a bonkers take to suggest that feminists cannot criticise the depiction of Disney princesses, there is so much feminist literature on that very topic.
ikr? there’s very much a popular ethos of “it’s just a cartoon, don’t overthink it” as if A. media being consumed by that many people isn’t worth critical evaluation or B. the very people doing that analysis aren’t often Disney fans themselves
All she's doing is defining feminism in a way that coincidentally aligns perfectly with her own view of what is feminist.
It's the "No true Scotsman" fallacy. Or "Scotswoman" in this case?
didn't recently there was a highly produced song that was all over tiktok that did the same critique and was highly acclaimed by everyone because it was not from a self-Identified feminist and was just branded as a apolitical song.
it was something like "Disney-Disney you tricked me tricked me"
making a live action adaptation of a movie and changing the story, changing defining parts of the characters, and hiring an actress that keeps saying how she hates the original is kind of dumb
lets remember how they ruined mulan
"staying kind and having good heart in the face of abuse" Girl... If Cinderella was a boy, it would be a movie about rebellion and escape while also keeping good heart and kindness
what are you trying to say
@@prageruwu69 that girls and boys are treated differently in disney movies
Nah if Cinderella were a boy it would be a really morally bankrupt revenge story zack sneider style, which is it's own bag kf worms in gendered messaging
Literally that wasn’t even her motto till the live action remake (which made her into even more of the “perfect victim”) like in the cartoon she got angry and upset, but had no autonomy, but they’re trying to push the idea that if ur not a passive victim, ur a bad person, unworthy of saving
I don’t know; maybe on top of asking “can girls have boy movie tropes” we can also ask for boys to have girl movie tropes and think about that longer.
THANK YOU. Im tired of the faux intellectual wave of people going "wElL aCtUaLlY a 1950's representation of the perfect woman IS feminist" 🙄
And they're advocating for it as if it's a counter cultural idea. Thinking of themselves as marginalised or a minority. For example, people saying "it's okay to be straight."
Just a little bit of positive media representation, and they feel as if the entire world is against them.
That's not what she said though. Not everything has to be so extreme. The point is that, if you do see a woman who wants the 1950s lifestyle, it's not feminist to tell her that she's not girl boss enough for the 2020s.
@@DoubLLwhich is true but it’s not a good response to the general idea of critiquing golden-age disney princesses, only ones that are specifically about that, like the one implied in the actress’s comments she’s initially responding to.
@@DoubLL feminists aren't saying that
The tiktokker was responding to the woman in the beginning who was absolutely implying that. I don't think she was arguing against feminism in general especially considering she said "x is not feminism" implying she supports feminism but not what the woman in the beginning said.
I'm a woman that very much wants a kind of tradlife; I want to get married, i want to have kids, would love to be a SAHM if i could afford it. I love baking and being in my own little space.
But the biggest pushback against this has always been that i'm a lesbian and therefore shouldn't get married, or have kids, etc.
I've had people tell me staying at home because i'm autistic is selfish and unproductive
I don't feel threated by critiques of Disney femininity at all, when it would never support my femininity
💛 from one baking-obsessed neurospicy queer to another, you deserve that life and I wish you all the best~
"if I could afford it" is the operative statement there. Nobody would judge you if you had all the receipts to back up this lifestyle but unfortunately the value of labour and free time against societal standards make it so that traditional lifestyles require "traditional" incomes which are growing further and further out of reach.
As an aspiring stay at home husband I wish us luck on our quests 🫡
ME. I wanna be a cute lil housewife…BUT NOT FOR A MAN 💀😭😂
Im sorry that people tell youthat, its not true and although homemaking is often forced onto womenit is still a very respectable role if someone chooses to play it.
@@Emma-Maze "neurospicy", now that's a cool neologism.
Everyone knows Dumbo is short for dummy thicc himbo
i wish i hadn't read this comment
Hey little Joel, I think she did sneak in a good point at the end there, in modern movies nobody bats an eye at men who’s core struggle is to find love, but I think as some sort of pendulum reaction to older problematic tropes, a woman who’s core struggle is that, is definitely going raise some eyebrows
And I’ll stipulate that I mean this for stories about heterosexual love, because being gay has its own struggles, stories about finding gay love are different, no one but right wing chuds get mad about lesbians seeking love in movies
I think it's certainly possible to write a character with seeking romantic love as their central conflict without, like, reducing them to that (and their attractiveness) being the only defining aspect of their character. If a real person were to have that as literally their only motivation in life I think others would rightfully question the healthiness of that, regardless of gender identity.
So what if it raises eyebrows, tho? If that's a story you want to tell, tell the story. If it's not popular with audiences for themes they don't like, well tough luck, then.
@@insu_na of course, I think you’re missing my point here, I’m not saying you can’t, I’m just saying a double standard exists that favors modern movies about men wanting to find a woman over the reverse
@@TheCleverADHDstudios Sure, but why is that? Is it because the evil feminists breaks writers' hands when they try to write a story like that?
You make a great central point that I hadn’t actually considered. Of course true feminism is allowing women to be homemakers if THEY truly want to, but the story of Snow White was created by people who believed that EVERY woman should be like Snow White and want nothing more than love and a committed partner.
I’m a sappy romantic and a monogamist, but that doesn’t mean I want to relate to a character written by and for a misogynistic society just because she shares those ideals
I think the focus on individual empowerment over societal change is a big problem with feminism (as represented by social media hot takes) right now. Any statement about broader issues is immediately jumped on by people who take it as a personal attack.
“True feminism” isn’t about personal choice to be a homemaker🙄
It’s about systems, patriarchy, disenfranchisement on that basis, and the interlocking oppressions that weave into this societal basis. When people bring this up-they’re told “how DARE you insult stay-at-home moms” or whatever tf and it’s bs meant to derail any real conversation engaging meaning OR it’s one of these “I’m not like “not like other girls” girls! I’m not a pick me! Look at how much I’m not a pick me!” Girls. They’re disingenuous or duped and either way it’s embarrassing how much they harm ppl with a whisper of gender non-conformity, by saying “their presentation hurts (REAL) feminine women😢”. It’s giving terf honestly.
"As a person, or a woman" is a great quote
I remember in my younger days I'd roll my eyes at people saying that Disney princess movies were sexist. But I recently watched The Princess and the Frog (the first classic Disney Princess movie I've ever seen all the way through) and BOY those critiques were right.
Tiana was here as a black woman in post-Civil War Louisiana working to fulfill the dream she shared with her dead father of opening up her own restaurant, but the lesson she had to learn was that what was *really* important was that she get married at 19.
gone are the days of barbarian warriors supplying bountiful feasts to supplicant mistresses😢
it shouldn't ever be "why would snow white do this" it should be "why did her writers make her do this? and what was their goal in doing so?"
Sometimes one person messes up so bad that anyone else starts to think they are right, no matter how far they are from the original point
okay but can we talk about how cute the little pigeon's reactions are at 5:18 ?
I believe the correct term is snow caucasian
I saw a good post abt this basically saying... yeah of course there's nothing wrong with wanting to fall in love? nobody ever said there was? in fact the prevailing idea in the patriarchal society we live in is that you SHOULD want that... so it's weird to suddenly try to present the mainstream idea as something radical that needs saying
Honestly redoing little mermaid but have it be a horror movie about a prince being obsessed by a mermaids voice and slowly being consumed until he drowns himself and is reborn as a zombie to work for the underwater kingdom as they take over the above ground is the remake I’m cheering for.
oh fuck! Yo, don't stop there, do it both narratives at once! Ariel's stuck on land as a mute, and Eric's stuck working for her dad as a zombie, and then for some weird reason they still have to find each other to break the curses.
by the way badass Snow White already exists in a show that was created in 2011 called Once Upon A Time, and i think they did a great job at balancing her character of being a loving doormat (for lack of a better word) and someone who can be independant and fight her own battles. it's also just generally a good show :)
It’s also the reason we got all these awful remakes 😭😭 all the enticing character dynamics but at what cost 😫
Doesn't Cinderella also have that "Someday my prince will come" song.
Ngl, I relate to Ariel, she wanted so badly to be a part of a world she felt she'd be more comfortable in that she was willing to give up her voice. The prince was an element of her choice, but the majority of her story pre-transformation was focused more on being a human than being with the prince. If I had the chance to make a faustian bargain to skip to the end of my own process of change, I 100% would. Doesn't even matter what I'd have to give up for it.
The rest of the movie after meeting the prince did go off into "Disney is trying to force their ship to be canon" territory though. I really wish Disney would stop that. Nightmare Before Christmas, Chicken Little, even Frozen despite so much of that movie seemingly being a critique of Disney's past tradition of insisting all Disney princesses have a love interest, only then to do exactly that after Anna's entire arc was literally about how love isn't that sort of instant happy ever after just add water cup ramen that could be cooked over the course of a single movie. Shoutouts to Mulan for having the old outdated people be the ones doing the shipping at the end of the movie.
that tiktok was so garbled - it conflates analysing sexist patterns in art with judging individual people as sexist
n the original Little Mermaid by Hans Christian Andersen her motivation for going to the surface was to obtain a soul so she could get to the afterlife. Marriage was a convenient way for her to do this, but her motivation was her own spiritual empowerment and not love. Disney Studios made the deliberate decision to cut that part out and turn it into the story of a woman making huge personal sacrifices purely for the sake of a man, and that 100% deserves to be called out as anti-feminist.
I hate this brand of feminism thats like "feminism is everything a woman does by her own accord" that just makes the whole meaningless
Snow White is woke even though I've never seen it.
I've been waiting years for someone to articulate this oh my god. My skin is healed. My crops are thriving. Little Joel Big W.
The Little Mermaid came out in 1989. I was there man, I was there.
“You’re criticising women for things that men get to do unquestioned.” Dude, if I ever see a teenage boy singing into a well about his wish for true love to find him, I’d be at least a little bit concerned.
Like maybe don’t just passively wait for it to find you? Maybe just be a man (sarcasm intended) and go find it yourself?
Ugh, I would HATE to watch a film where a girl goes on a wacky adventure across the realm to find a boyfriend. /s
That tiktok is literally shit Karen Carpenter was saying in 1976.
I forgot this was a little joel video until the very last 10 seconds
I hope to god that I never write a movie that tiktokers decide to analyze/criticize. it would end me
As long as the main political project of such pernicious figures as matt walsh and jack posobiec are transfixed by movies made for children I’m generally happy regardless of filmic content
Wow, this lady could talk about how Beauty and the Beast isn't about an abusive relationship (a take I completely agree with), but not only not explain how - but it would be in a video about Spider-man with her level of off-topic-ness.
Also if a 1937 movie was about a man singing about longing for a lady to come and save him unironically - that would be considered either "weird" or "outright absurd" because the patriarchy effects men as well and has certain ideals about what a man should be like. So no it's not just something a man could do without blinking - freaking inane take. Though I do LOVE the idea of someone trying to explain how Disney's Snow White is actually super feminist ya'll (evil queen is a girl boss!)
They don’t bring up how hot Dumbo is because it’s self evident.
Anyone who craves power should be cast adrift on the ocean
If she wants to watch a movie about the virtues of homemakers than there is this little company called uh I think “Walt Disney” and there are a bunch of old movies I think one of them is called “Snow White” from the 30s that she might like. In the meantime I am glad for a new take
"Disney princess bad" feminism is the equivalent of "Drag Queen story hour" for the Right
What is perfectly adorable, good as new and has seven tiny little dents in it?
Oh wow, Little Joel is cribbing on Jack Saint's woke thumbnail style. Hope Big Joel doesn't catch wind of what his Little counterpart is doing.
i find the insistence of the disney remakes to set out to "fix" the originals almost as annoying as choice feminists insistence that the originals were actually _secretly feminist all along._ no they weren't but neither is disney's #girlboss brand of feminism imo
Thank youuuuu this is exactly what has been bothering me about this backlash (that and the obvious excuse to be misogynistic toward Rachel). I think it's so funny when THE most superficial analysts of patriarchy claim that it's actually the complex feminist critique that is superficial. Like, yes, actually, critiquing white male writers' portrayals of women as obedient, kind, naive, and centering their lives around men is, in fact, feminist.
The Little Mermaid is an 89 movie.
Imagine a role reversal with snow and the prince
A guy who only wants to fall in love and gets poisoned to be unconscious for half the movie while the princess has to save him.
Conservatives would explode.
But oh why? Would you deny a man the right to love??
Ken in Barbie movie was essentially male version of that, a man who only wanted to fall in love and live with Barbie, no other ambitions, no personality aside from that, and right wing men called this "man-hating" :D But Barbie movie was more generous than the Disney princess movies is to women, in the end it gave the message that Ken is more than that, he has value as a person, separate of his love life.
dont look at me like that
Responding to commercialized girlboss pseudo-feminist with over-the-top choice feminist talking points is certainly a move. Like, "Snow White is gonna want to be a leader in our version" is pretty cringe, but Snow White is 100% open to feminist critique, it IS a 1930s adaptation of a 1700s story that is rooted in traditional gender roles.
“we’re gonna make snow white a badass who wants to be a leader”
oh good that worked out so well with live action jasmine
So Icespice bout to play snow black, i guess
how can snow white be woke when she sleeps
"That's the first thing we learn about her, that she's wishing for a man to come." Joel, please, language.
It is kind of funny she responds to a statement about Snow White by...not addressing Snow White.
I’m excited for the new Snow White to be Disney’s 50th first gay character
4:00 "we completely write off Cinderellas incredible ability to be walked all over and treated like garbage. We as women should all aspire to be treated so poorly, and to do so with pride."
Like wtf are you on lady? Lay off it and log off.
People don't control whether they're treated like garbage. They control whether they remain a good person in spite of their situation. That's the point being made
@@itsthedeek234 might be the point she tried to make, but the point she actually made was literally "if you're an abuse victim, just deal with it."
@@itsthedeek234ah yes, and the only way to remain good when you're being abused is to let the abuse happen and not defend yourself. What a great point!!! I'm sure this won't alienate victims of abuse who made the choice to fight back.
Fritz the Cat is an amazing piece of feminist animation.
of your newer thumbnails this one is quite pleasant. it has a kind and warm energy. it made me feel safe and happy. bravo!
little mermaid was 1989 dawg
good points as usual
So if I’m reading this right, the remake will have Snow White oust and replace the Evil Queen after her assassination plot fails. Now, I’m not going to say I hate this decision as it’s a fairly common and effective fantasy narrative. But as an anti-Monarchist, I’m fatigued by benevolent dictator narratives. The system is inherently evil and replacing a cruel ruler with a kind one doesn’t change the fact it’s still monarchy. But I’m a crazy person who expects anti-monarchy themes to be in a fantasy movie so whatever
Most of the feminist commentaries on these Disney princess remake situations, at least on social media, are incredibly shallow and drive me insane. Regardless of which way they lean on the issue
The movie will most likely have moderately progressive elements, and that’s good. Unfortunately it’s being made by Disney, so it will suck.
Wait, in English "Snow White" are 2 different words???!!
Does that mean that that White is her surname??
Does it mean that she is Ms. White??
Does it mean.... Mr. White would be her husband??
"Sneezy. We need to cook, Sneezy"
Ok my brain is rotten, I know.
This was my requiem:
write this entire comment on my tombstone
Idk why disney has to keep being like "this princess is NOT like the other princesses! Shed not a typical disney princess!" We have had SO many disney girls who can fight and do girlboss stuff and dont need a man etc. Its not a shocking change of pace anymore! Its been decades since it would have been.
Forgive me if this has been addressed somewhere in a comment section… but what’s up with the cabinet door being open? Is it some sort of Kubrickian subliminal messaging? Why? Why is it open? What does it signify???
I'm enjoying these medium sized Joels
Dumbo is attractive
So you mean... she's not going to get her PhD dissertation approved??
Thank god we got Little Joel to make these posts that Big Joel is trying to hide from us.
My girlfriend got mad at me for listening to this because she heard your voice and thought you were Ben Shapiro.
I can't believe you would say something so hurtful outloud like this
Fr why don’t we hear about how built dumbo is?
Real pearlythings singing her Jewish question song:/ :|
Even some of my favorite creators have been getting in on this "rachel zegler is being SO harmful to women!" thing and it's so wild and disappointing to see.
Joel is right, we should be hearing more about how attractive Dumbo is
Such a Cutie! UwU
Sadly the Internet wasn't around in time to start a Dumbo's-18th-birthday countdown clock.
He is a literal baby boy.
His mom tho.....
Those eyelashes…
Never thought of Dumbo as a “man” but now I feel we were robbed of a direct to VHS sequel where hunky adult Dumbo saves the circus and sweeps a lady acrobat around romantically with his masculine trunk
Snow Joel. Sleeping Joel. Beauty and the Joel. The Princess and the Joel. Big Joel in Little Joel. Joel Goes Woke. Idk.
“Big Joel in Little Joel”
there’s so many things I could say about that, absolute banger
god's work
@@hive-sysit’s like in Silence of the Joels when he looks at the camera and says his catchphrase “It’s Joelin’ Time”
the joel king
I can’t wait for the anime adaptation Little Joel’s bizarre adventure
Little Joel DESTROYS big Joel's woke NONSENSE with SNOW WHITE
@droid-guy and butt stuff.
you all have ourple pfps. you should kiss.
@@dwellerintheden7973the poly purples
I am become woke, destroyer of conservative influencers
Truly, one of the liberal propagandas of all time
Said krisna to arjuna, convincing him to absolutely demolish the right wing kauravas
x
@@17thcolossus91 thats why dems are blue lmao
Now I am become insignificant differences, destroyer of reactionaries.
The way a lot of people analyze the actions of characters as if they were real life individuals, rather than tools of a narrative, drives me to drink.
please for the love of your liver let it instead drive you to (more) book
That's how I feel about Attack on Titan. "Eren had no choice," the author literally created a convoluted scenario to justify him (never in real history has the people with the means to commit genocide been the oppressed, it has always been the oppressor killing the oppressed, yet here we have a story where it's the oppressed that are the ones powerful enough to kill everyone and somehow they have no other choice?) and even then I feel like they could not adequately justify Eren's actions. But you have so many people acting like Eren is a real person driven to awful things and not a character in a story explicitly written to promote nationalistic worldviews by a person who like anyone else (surprise, surprise!) has his own personal political opinions.
@@greyfox4838 This is such a random topic to bring up but I'm so glad I'm not alone in feeling uncomfortable with the scenario. A world where the systemically oppressed gain the ability to violently fight back is a cool premise, but it's done so poorly and clearly as just a method to justify Isayama's latent nationalist ideas (even if unintentionally--he did have the obvious fascists like Flegel be the villains).
no fictional characters are my idols. gollum, for instance. i want to find a ring and go mad.
making a live action adaptation of a movie and changing the story, changing defining parts of the characters, and hiring an actress that keeps saying how she hates the original is kind of dumb
I think you missed an important counter to the video you’re responding too - when feminists critically examine Disney princess movies, they’re not criticizing women (real or fictional) - they’re criticizing the men who made these movies
This is the point of feminism that a lot of anti-feminists tend to either misunderstand or ignore honestly.
THIS !
Ohh yeah, I had a feeling there was just a little something more to add and this was it. People so so often boil down critique of fictional characters to judging that kind of person. It's the same with race, whenever you say that something seems to be inspired by real world racial stereotypes (especially a fantasy race, eg certain depictions of orcs and goblins) people will say 'oh, so you think black people are just like orcs??' and it's so clearly missing the point!!
And criticizing those men can also coexist with being annoyed af at the pseudo-feminist, profit-hungry "snow white was broken but we fixed it by making her badass" narrative. Just one time I'd love to see someone, preferably not a man, try to reimagine something like snow white without completely changing the character into a no nonsense ass kicker
Yeah it's implicit in the tiktoker's arguments that people critiquing these films are attacking disney princesses as people, rather than discussing the values that the characters/narratives seem to uphold. She's treating character behavior as naturally occurring rather than constructed by artists to generate meaning. It reminds me of the old Dan Olson video "The Thermian Argument."
"I could literally write a PhD thesis" is a really bold way to preface your obtusely surface-level analysis of a Disney film and I envy that confidence tbh
@@elinope4745i really dont think she was tryna say that 😭 but i cant tell if this is sarcasm or not
@@elinope4745lolol yeah sure lets go w that
@@botanicalitus4194 r/whoosh
confidence is one word for it 💀
That's a shot at academia, not a boast.
I love how this tired ass “guys not all women want to be leaders some want true love🥺🥺🥺” take always assumes the two are diametrically opposed and it’s impossible to want both or neither
it’s just the gender binary in disguise again! but this time as how life paths relate to gender roles
She isn't saying that at all, she was responding to the woman who was implying that making her a leader was necessary for the modern version. How do people keep missing this...
@@oontgraddid you watch the video? In that response she doesn’t even address the fact that it’s a fictional movie and pretends the feminists are just out here attacking an individual woman for her choices. She says “not every woman wants power… it’s not anti-feminist to want to fall in love/get married/stay at home” as if literally anyone was saying that
@zoologistsnightmare What do you even mean "by she doesn't even address the fact that it's a fictional movie" ITS A CARTOON. She doesn't have to. We inherently know they are fictional characters, she doesn't have to say it. People in these comments making this criticism are just trying to infantilize her. She knows and the audience knows she is talking about fictional characters, it doesn't have to be said.
And yes, there IS a lot of bad, reductive criticism of disney princesses. She was responding to what Rachel Zegler said about how this snow white WASN'T going to be dreaming about true love and WAS going to be dreaming about being a leader as if this is an inherent improvement of a problematic piece of the first film.
@@oontgrad Actually it is important to make the distinction because the tiktoker here is misrepresenting the “feminist” argument as an attack on real individual women with agency as opposed to the movie itself as a reflection of cultural ideals and the way women are perceived. Of course everyone knows it’s fake. That’s missing the point entirely. Saying feminists are unfairly “criticizing disney PRINCESSES” instead of “criticizing Disney princess MOVIES” is reductive and shifts the conversation to the personal choices of real women with free will, which no one was criticizing in the first place. It’s just easier to tear that idea down than contending with the actual argument.
Also, you’ll notice my original comment isn’t just defending Zegler. She’s still implying that women must choose between romance and a career whereas I’m saying they can coexist.
Upon seeing this video in my subscription feed, I felt an alien compulsion, something outside of my mind and body entirely, driving me to click on it. I don't know what dark magic Little Joel has employed, but there's no denying the raw magnetism of the new thumbnails.
The worm icon is a warlock and the patron is Medium Joel
It's the evil glee in his necromancer stare
The way you perfectly replicate the way Little Joel talks is, at worst, impressive, and at best, simply incredible
raw magnetism is the perfect way to describe this feeling 😵💫
It's been 9 years since gamergate and "If you were a feminist you'd RESPECT the choices of these fictional women (written by men)" is still an argument somehow.
I know right, its exhausting 😭
Time is a flat circle
It sound like she watched that Lindsay Ellis video on the issues with making Disney Princesses "woke" but missed about half of every point Lindsay made.
@@RoryStarr she only watched the Ellis part and not the Lindsay part
Remember that gamergoogoogaga never ended. It was funneled into the neo-Nazis and created the alt-right. Folks can say that's not what happened, but they'd be objectively wrong.
"Fictional characters are not real people, judging them isn't the same as judging the actions of real women, and because of this you know it makes sense to point to patterns, ideology." THIS, A THOUSAND TIMES THIS
Why has feminism moved away from women’s systemic issues and is now just “let👏women👏be👏submissive👏” I’m gonna scream
How is that your takeaway from this? She is reacting to the person in the beginning who seemed to be implying that the film MUST make Snow White baddass, which even little Joel agrees is bad. Her criticism isn't as nuanced as it could possibly be but women can be homemakers and not be interested in leadership etc, and it is NOT anti-feminist to say so.
Being submissive in certain circumstances isn't inherently wrong the same goes for being assertive. There is a tendency to downplay oppression in Disney films and sugarcoat reality but I don't agree with denigrating anything because it's traditionally feminine.
Women wishing to be submissive is not the same thing as women wanting to be oppressed.
@@oontgradThat’s not what she said at all. She said "it's no longer 1937, we wrote a snow white who [won't be saved by the prince, wants to be a leader]". She's describing the film and how it brings something new to the character because she wants to promote the film, and the reason she says "it's no longer 1937" is because you wouldn't be able to write a movie like that in 1937.
@@pepijnstreng4643 Well youd be able to write it, but good luck getting it made into a movie. Itd be one of those underground books, like how queer literature was.
I love when people are so deep in an internet echo chamber they start loudly advocating for the status quo as if it's a radical counter cultural stance. "Let 👏 women👏 be👏 feminine 👏." etc.
it’s okay to be straight😍❤️
@@zoologistsnightmare 😭
I have been trying to find the words for this for years, thank you!
@@zoologistsnightmare"don't be afraid to be normal❤🎉 it's okay to be a hetero!" go offline pls
"let women embrace traditional femininity!!1!1!1" what?
The main problem with Snow White is that it's basically a series of episodes where the Evil Queen tries to murder her and fails in various ways, which really isn't that compelling beyond the realm of a bedtime story. So instead of that, just give the girl some agency. Then again, Neil Gaiman had to turn her into a monster just to get the plot to work, so how about we stop resurrecting century-old stories and write some new- oh right, you don't want to pay the writers.
That was probably the reason the Big Mouse pushed for 100 year copyright in the first place. Disney never wanted to make P.L. Travers' Mary Poppins, never wanted to make H.C. Anderson's Little Mermaid, or Grimm's Cinderella, etc etc, he just wanted to corner the market on derivations of them in perpetuity.
We could also finally start adapting stories from outside of the generic European canon. There are some really fun and wild ancient tales from all over the world that could be made into interesting adaptations! I wanna see Coyote, Anansi, Amaterasu, Fox Spirits, pre-Christian Norse stuff, pagan tales, Tlaloc, Atabey, Gilgamesh!
Gimme some of the stuff that d-bag Joseph Campbell purposely left out of his stupid "Hero's Journey" nonsense!
10th kingdom did it pretty good
@@Arosukir6I mean why do you think anime are popular.
That. And gilgamesh, is the basis for both m8st romances and bromances. And probably why there is so much shipping in the first place unintentional.
And did invent the enemies to lovers trope. Maybe.
While I feel the movie is technically super impressive, the actual storyline is very boring, there didn’t need to be a 10 minute scene of the dwarves washing up, it served zero purpose to the plot, I respect the film more then I like it
damn snow white dont need no man? this literally has taken away my right to fall in love as a woman, :(
your misrepresenting the whole discourse
“This woman will be a leader.”
“Wow, you literally deny women the right to fall in love?”
That's an interesting comment……
What a horribly reductive interpretation of what she was saying
@@oontgradits correct tho
It is the attitude of the makers of the film (the main actress in interviews, for example) that pursuing a man is a sign of lack of independence. It is they who are saying the two are opposites, and thus, through their attitudes and value judgements, they are "denying women" in this respect.
If the main character values being a leader more than finding a man, and if the makers of the film say that this is good because shows independence of the main character, then yes, logically speaking, the makers of the movie are denying women pride in pursuing a man.
@@larbot3433 no it isn't, she was responding to Rachel Zegler saying this snow white WASN'T going to be dreaming about falling in love and WAS going to be dreaming about being a leader as if it were an inherent improvement of a problematic piece of the first film.
While I don't know if Disney is going to deliver, a Snow White retelling where a teenage princess is exiled by her stepmother and ends up staying with a working class family (the dwarves) which leads her to plot a revolution to improve the lives of people of lower social classes and becoming a fair and just queen or even changing the system entirely would be a pretty compelling movie
honestly it would
Unfortunately it’s being made by Disney
Thank you byakuya togami from the hit anime visual novel series danganronpa, very cool
that would be ironic
There's gotta be a "removal of the influence of apple products on government" subplot in there somewhere.
Sometimes I dont want a whole big joel. I just want a little.
just a little smidge of joel
When is medium Joel coming? I want MORE joel
Little Big Joel
This recipe calls for a Dollop of Joel
I don’t get the “let women be feminine” crap I’ve been seeing more of recently. That’s literally the status quo; most women in media are feminine in some way. It just feels like a reactionary pushback against female characters breaking gender roles, and the fact that a lot of supposed “progressives” are using that line of reasoning is very concerning.
I think its just let some female characters be feminine without shame. Just because a character is girly doesnt mean its not progressive.
Not every female character needs to exist to send a message
I would say that none of the Disney movies or princesses are inherently bad on their own but that fact that it was a pattern that that was the sole way women were portrayed in media for a while is the problem. If you want to write a story about a “trad” woman I don’t think there is anything inherently wrong with that. But we should still advocate for having more diversity in the way women are portrayed in media.
exactly, 100%.
yeah, like, thats actually what makes it more dificult to convince people, you cant easilly pin point a movie which would be very obviouslly antifeminist but the whole of it is, its like numbers and math, people who can understand it understand the general rules of numbers and stuff, and people who cant, would do examples instead of trying to generalise
it's grown men writing about 16 year old girls' wet dreams about being a sub trad wife i think it's inherently problematic
you know, this weekend, I was strolling about and overhead some kids playing. A boy was talking about Spiderman, and a little girl said "I can be the girl Spiderman" which honestly made me smile. It was interesting to reflect on.
I think finally the movies have started to include references to the female spider folk that have been in the comics cannon for ages, so it might be as little as that; yay representation. Or it may be she was coming to it of her own volition, in which case, more power to her!
The number of superheroes that don't have a female clone of themself is a short list
i wish we could get back to playing pretend it was genuenlly fun, im sad that ive grown up lol, ( i know i can still play it being older but its better with friends)
@@marmolejomartinezjoseemili9043Dungeons & Dragons (and really any other Table Top Role-Playing Game) is a lot like playing pretend but for grown-ups, if you want to find a way to do it with friends
The thing is, some of the early Disney princesses are weak and sappy even when compared to the heroines of other folktales. For example, Cinderella is a retelling by Charles Perrault of a tale found in literally thousands of versions in numerous cultures around the world, and Cinders is one of the absolute drippiest of all of them. In most versions of the story the Cinderella character is shown to deal with hardship with stoicism and resilience and uses her brains and charm to win the Prince as well as her looks. The Perrault version just gives her a fairy Godmother to sort it all out for her. That's the one Disney picked, not any of the versions where the heroine has any agency at all. There are loads and loads of folk tales with smart, tough and resourceful heroines, going back literally hundreds of years, but for decades, Disney went out of their way to pick tales with some of the most pathetic and helpless heroines in the folk tale canon precisely because they wanted to convey conservative social attitudes in their films. It was very much a conscious choice, and one that they have belatedly realised needed correcting.
well surely the “canon” had already filtered the versions people were generally exposed to to the Perrault version before Disney got to it right?
@wesshiflet2214 idk about America, but here in Denmark, I got the story where the birds plucked the sisters' eyes out lol, no fairy in sight.
Didn't get the r*pe stories of sleeping beauty and snow white though, thank goodness
i really like the russian one where she gets the magic dress and jewelry and the prince but then fucks it up and has to fix it on her own without magic and she has to go on a quest to get her prince back. I always felt like it was a far more satisfying "and then what" that gave her a lot of character, that she got a taste of life outside her terrible family and had to fight for it. Edit to add, i grabbed my russian fairy tale book off the shelf and its called "the feather from finist the falcon"
I can understand where you are coming from but to say the animated Cinderella had no resilience, agency, or fight, is a common argument I will never understand. You have whatever stance you want on the fairy God mother being a deus ex machna of sorts. Quite valid actually. But the 50s Cinderella fought back her abuse with hope, faith and her imagination and sure call it cheesy what you will but she wasn't waiting because she didn't actually think the prince nor the fairy God mother was going to come. I'm just Quite tried of the narrative that the more passive Cinderella is weak because she was passive in her ways of fighting the abuse. And did they choose a passive Cinderella on purpose because that's what the ol white men were probably most comfortable with? Yeah probably but that does not make even the most passive one "pathetic".
You have a point but there's a problematic tendency to dismiss anything "sappy" or "soft" as inherently bad.
I think that in the end people are so tired of "girlboss feminism" that they are unconsciously admiting conservative (or at least poor critics that fall in conservative leaning) points in their retoric as a response, without realizing.
It's the same thing with "Sex scene in movies" discourse, when you see.
Maybe conservatives do have a point? It seems silly to immediately dismiss everything conservative's say just because they're the ones saying it. A lot of feminists movies seem to pushing an ideological perspective that seems to condemn traditional femininity.
Yeah Joel is right, none of these movies are "real" and are about "real people." But there are many traditional women who embrace traditional femininity and can identify with characters like Cinderella and Snow White. Pushing an idea that something is inherently flawed about these characters isn't really uplifting to women, it's stepping on 'different women for the sake of women you more closely align with 'modern' values.
@@NomastiAfricanWarlordhere's the thing, conservative men want to enforce those values, that's why you don't align with them
But these movies aren’t for those women. They’re for little girls. I think that the prominent messaging to them shouldn’t be that the goal in life should be to make yourself financially dependent on a partner and become a passive spectator to your own life in a way (thinking of the really old Disney movies in particular, lead characters have things happen to them more so than that they ever act on their own). Now ideally we would do that not by making terrible movies that seem to try and rectify every possibly criticism someone would have had regarding the original, but that’s what you get from a brand more focused on their image than creating interesting movies. There are enough movies that achieve agency, financial independence and love and marriage and children for their female characters that are also directed more or less at children, such as the absolute masterpiece of filmmaking that is Shrek. I personally don’t think we need more acceptance of children and marriage in this world, as it’s a pretty common and established path for people to follow, but I’m also not personally a big fan of choice feminism either, so I guess we’ll agree to disagree on that point. Shrek has you covered either way.
@@NomastiAfricanWarlord
no one is truly being "stepped on" for following gender norms and maintaining the status quo. choice feminism doesn't do anything, it doesn't truly challenge or change anything because it is choice feminism. it is not "silly" to criticize an ideology when it's shared by those who believe women should maintain a certain role and stay in their place according to traditional social ideals.
women who don't fit into traditional molds of feminity will always be criticized and alientated more than a woman who literally just follows the status quo. I'm unsure of why you're so focused on this nonissue of people being "shamed" for following gender norms when that's really not happening here, especially not on a systematic level. ultimately we should be aiming to eradicate those norms just let people do what they wish to do without any patriarchal influence and i don't particularly care to validate women for literally just being traditional and upholding those norms.
@@bootalophosaurus2378 WTF is "choice feminism" and who or what coined this seemingly sneaky-ass term?
The whole point of feminism was in opening avenues for choice that were unavailable due to totalitarian patriarchy. This sounds like one of those cases where the redundancy circles back on itself to undo meaning.
Rachel Zegler feels like Gen Z's Anne Hathaway, in that ten years from now they'll look back and go "damn, we were so mean to her for no reason."
The thing that drives me nuts about this is the black-and-white way it's stated. Instead of "some feminist takes on Disney princesses were/are lazy and shallow" we have this claim that you CANNOT criticize Disney movies as a feminist.
I like that she says she could write a PhD thesis about the topic, as if anyone would agree to supervise a PhD candidate with no media literacy who seems to think fictional characters have their own agency.
Where did she imply this? She didn't. I mean come on, people discuss media and characters all the time and they don't pause every minute to say "but let's remember, these characters are not real, and we are actually discussing the writing rather than real people". People don't say this because it's obvious. Yet so many people in these comments are saying what you are saying. She knows she's discussing media. Obviously
@@oontgrad Then why is she so upset that people are criticizing disney princesses, who are ficitional characters?
@@Meurth she is not "so upset", she made a video about criticism she disagrees with. How is this complicated? She is not confused about cartoon characters being real.
@@oontgrad Did you even watch the video? She's defending the actions of dinsey princesses as if they are the ones being attacked and criticized.
the real pseudofeminism is defending disney princesses on tiktok when abortion rights are being stripped away globally. "Let women be feminine!!!" chronically online bs
why would she talk about abortion rights in response to a video about disney princesses? this is whataboutism. there are always going to be bigger problems in the world. it's not anyone's job to divert mostly-useless internet infighting to systemic issues they largely have no control over. do keep in mind that these are just regular people. tik tokers are not celebrities, they are not famous, they for the most part do not expect to have a large platform or outreach.
this is the biggest whatabout-ism ive ever seen like holy shit. this is like debating who would win 1 billon lions or one of every pokemon, and then someone says you should be protesting against the war in ukraine, with the vauge connection being that if the lions and pokemon fought it would also be a war.
@@ectoskeletal I agree. We are allowed to discuss gender roles in children's media while also being critical of human rights violations. Most feminists do both already.
@@ectoskeletal
There wasn't a single point shown from the tik tok video that couldn't have come from some alt right trad account. Pseudofeminist seems pretty accurate. Abortion rights were mentioned here as an indicator of prevailing cultural attitudes, which is relevant because the tik tok video tries to claim there is a prevailing cultural attitude against traditional femininity (there isn't)
@@oliverwilson11 thank you