I can't believe that people would cancel book orders and stop watching Tim's videos over this. It's like they'll allow Tim to review and discuss whatever only as long as it's what they want to hear. But how can we grow and learn if we're not presented with alternative ideas or things we might disagree with? Tim I love your videos. I'm going to order another book to give to a friend. Keep doing what you do!
People always look for reasons to act outraged by everything. It is a group of narrow minded and foolish people. It is a sad state of affairs about how unchristian evangelicalism has become.
I get the cancelling book orders and stop watching videos actually. But I find it very childish to let Tim know that you cancelled your book order and unsubscribe. Just cancel, shut up and move on lol
Forgive the essay. I’m a former Greek teacher, so I am conversant with Greek, but not Hebrew. I’ll admit that I hated on The Message to my students (HS students at a Classical Christian School). Back then, the version of The Message I found online contained a rendition of Psalm 1 that referred to “smart-mouth college” and “sin saloon” and other gag-worthy anachronisms. I held that passage up to them as an example of a translation that would fail in my class. In the 12 or 13 years since I was a Greek teacher, I’ve gained an appreciation for Eugene Peterson and The Message. Even though I trust that Peterson worked from the original languages for the entire project, I regard some passages of The Message as translation and some as paraphrase. I’m comfortable labeling the passages that you pointed out translations because they are at least dynamic equivalents to the original. But other passages like Psalm 1 (granted, I don’t know Hebrew) are closer to paraphrase. The Message’s rendition of Job 38 (again, I’m out of my depth) is what converted me to recognizing its value. In verses 8-11, the ESV is beautifully subtle in capturing the metaphor of the sea being like a baby: “I made clouds its garment and thick darkness its swaddling band, and prescribed limits for it and set bars and doors, and said, ‘Thus far shall you come, and no farther, and here shall your proud waves be stayed.” But check it out in The Message: “And who took charge of the ocean when it gushed forth like a baby from the womb? That was me! I wrapped it in soft clouds, and tucked it in safely at night. Then I made a playpen for it, a strong playpen so it couldn’t run loose, And said, ‘Stay here, this is your place. Your wild tantrums are confined to this place.” Wow! I caught the imagery so much easier in The Message and that guided my meditation on the passage. That’s the value I see in The Message.
Great point of view! I’ve never read the message translation but have been told not to, hearing this verse is very interesting though, what a helpful way to describe the ocean!
This was an excellent video, Tim! I use Accordance Bible Software, so I copied the verses you talked about into a Word document so I could visually see the comparisons you made between ESV and The Message. This was eye-opening for me. I would have never thought to use “The Message” translation until I saw your video. The visual comparison quickly shows the sentence structure, and depending on your application, it can bring more clarity to scripture reading. You also shared your thoughts, concerns, and recommendations for using these translations. This is another tool in the Bible study toolbox that empowers the reader, giving them options and choices to put more clarity into their Bible study.
An issue I have with the Message Bible is how often it can sound dated, not in the majestic way the KJV does, but in a "grampa trying to sound hip" way.
The first time I read the Bible cover to cover was The Message. It primed the pump for me to love the Word more and dig deeper into other translations. It’s a valuable resource for someone new to faith or who would otherwise not read the Bible because it’s challenging.
@macherie1234 my first Bible was a Good News Bible, my second one was an NIV. It wasn't until relatively recently, about 40 years later, that I bought a copy of the Living Bible. My personal library now contains a variety of translations, representing a variety of translation styles and study notes, and even languages other than English.
Tim, I don’t agree with all your opinions and thoughts, but they are needed and helpful. We need to have more conversations not less. Keep them coming!
Love this series Tim. The wrestling with these questions IS faith. - it IS the work of getting to know Him better. Thanks for leading us through it. Looking forward to next week.
I am really enjoying these translation videos and I hope that Translation Tuesday remains a permanent part of your offerings. Some more foundational videos might be helpful, such as a discussion about the differences, and similarities between Formal and Dynamic. Also, in thinking about it, a video or two on the history of the Masoretic text would be fun, since it is the primary basis for many of the modern versions OT.
tim, i LOVE this video! honestly, i thought the same thing about The Message for years and then i read A Burning in My Bones and it challenged me to read the Message itself. I went ahead and read The Message for a Bible Shred challenge (the whole bible in 30 days!) and it TRANSFORMED my love of and understanding of the Bible. i made a whole video about my time reading The Message in 30 days, and then the entire ESV study bible in a year immediately after, and how that was the single greatest thing i have ever done for my personal relationship with Christ! absolutely stellar video sir, don't let any of the haters get you down - you are doing AMAZING work!! also, i love this series so much, please keep it going forever :D can't wait for the book!
@@ancientxtitan9313 actually planning on doing just that! :) My goal is to do a read through of all the major translations (done NLT, ESV, The Message, and NASB so far!) so that i am much more equipped to talk with people about any of them. Do you like the CEV? I don't think i personally know anyone who's read that, so i'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how it ranks? The one i'm really interested in next is the full-notes NET
@@readlikeaman I do like the CEV very easy to understand. It is my morning reading Bible. My mother bought it more than 10 years ago. I found it on our library after being interested in reading other translations other than NKJV. NKJV was may main Bible translation for 15 years. I read the NIV, NLT, CSB, Berean Standard Bible. I love all those. Now I'm planning on getting NET Full Notes, and then maybe the NASB. Not a big fan of the ESV. It's great there are many of us who desire to read many translations.
@@ancientxtitan9313 man I love that! Yeah I’ll def be moving CEV up the list now! I think you’ll like the NASB, I really enjoyed that one! And I couldn’t agree more man, I’ve gained so much from reading the different versions and have things that I love about all of them. Really wish more people would be open to reading more because I think there’s such value in it..
I have been a Christian all my life but I have definitely tried to deepen my walk with Jesus lately more so than ever. Some of the most judgmental unkind knee-jerk reactions I've ever seen from any group of people have been from so-called Christians. Without seeking to understand they are quick to condemn. Tim I think you even said it best when you said the number one thing that turns people away from Christianity is Christians. Tim you have always been fair and balanced in your approach always offered reason for why you felt or said a certain thing I have not bought your book but I plan to . The main point here is to read your Bible to understand it and what Jesus meant. Some people require different tools to do that. I'm no pastor but I can tell you if you read your Bible and you really understand what it says you would not treat other people that way. If you look at what brother Tim has done he has given away a ton of Bibles he has opened himself up to conversation if you disagree with him. If your first reaction to anything is anger then you missed everything Jesus taught us. Jesus is King Lord and savior
Mr. Tim, continue being yourself and let the critics pass by. The first Bible I read was the Message, and it had a significant impact on me as a kid. That copy remains on my Bible shelf and will always have a spot there. Just be yourself sir and disregard the noise.
Thank you for this. Definitely a balanced video that I deeply appreciate. One of the things the Eugene Peterson always mentioned was that he saw people using this bible in tandem with other translations. In the intro to "The Message" he states that The Message "is a reading bible...it is not intended to replace the excellent study bibles that are available." I have always appreciated The Message and still refer to it alongside my ESV. There was a point a number of years back when I was a bit burned out in my bible reading and teaching, and it was spending a year just reading through the Message that helped to revitalize my passion for scripture. So, I will always be grateful for The Message and the life of Eugene Peterson, particularly today on the anniversary of his death.
I know very little about The Message, but I think you've hit the nail on the head with your assessment of it. These TT videos are brilliant Tim! Really fascinating stuff.
Thank you Tim. This was a great explanation. I own a couple of “The Message” Bibles. I have not read it entirely but I have looked at different passages when I found myself wanted to understand something in clearer terms. In the same way I would compare any other translation to what I’m currently reading (ESV). As with other translations, the idea Eugene Peterson had, I believe, was to help people grasp the message of God’s word to any reader. I think you can’t knock it until you understand why it was done the way it was. Thank you Tim for doing all the research for us. I appreciate you. Blessings.
I have enjoyed these videos. I own different translations and compare them when I am studying. My oldest son prefers the message bible because he claims he understands what he is reading better. For Christmas he received from me this year a Bible that had NIV and the message side by side so that he could see both together when he reads his Bible.
Loving these videos I'm learning a lot from them and I think I can even go as far as saying that Translation Tuesdays are my favourite videos on your channel now.
I'm really enjoying this series. I understand the passion that people have, but it seems silly to get so angry and worked up when there is disagreement. It does make it confusing for people who are new to faith or just starting their education. That is why I really appreciate your calm and neutral presentation that just lays out the information so that the viewers can draw their own conclusions. I went ahead and joined your channel to make up for the silly person who left over a simple disagreement of ideas :)
Thank you for another great video. Don’t let that one “hater” get you down!! He may have unsubscribed but I think he’s still watching ALL of your videos, shorts, posts…but he’d never admit it!!! 😂🤣 I currently enjoy reading the CSB and NLT. Our church uses the ESV and I read it too but not as much as the other two. I’d love if you would do a full comparison of these three translations. TIA and keep up the good work!!! 😊
I don't think Peterson intended it to be someone's primary Bible. The Message is almost like his commentary on the Bible. I think it was improved with the 2018 revision. I enjoy it for devotional purposes and was glad you mentioned Romans 12:1-2. That is my favorite rendering of that passage.
I remember reading in the introduction to a publication of part of the JB Phillips translation the idea that if a paraphrase is saying something a different way, all translations are, in a sense, a paraphrase.
First off, loving translation Tuesdays! It gives us a bit of the mind of an author. Secondly, I honestly use the Message as more of a commentary cause to me it is sounds more like a teacher in Sunday School.
I'm glad you covered this one! I've had my hang-ups with The Message, but hearing your rationale for calling it a translation has helped me understand better...ultimately it's just not for me, but I appreciate what it's going for. And I'm really enjoying Translation Tuesdays - keep up the great work!
Got me thinking brother. I don't know if I quite agree, but I will say that you definitely made me think about the definition of translation. Can't wait to read that book!
to me the message is kind of a mixed bag. there's some verses/passages that just sound straight up goofy with the lax/modern slang/language, but then there's some that really stand out in a unique way and genuinely move me. i had a youth pastor as a kid solely teach from the message. i think it's fine to have and use, but i also think it's good to have another easy-to-understand translation like NIV or ESV or NKJV on deck to get the full scope of things. side note: my mom grew up only ever reading the good news translation. it's a "paraphrase" too but growing up with her reading from it to us, i don't feel like we missed out on any key message. the heart of it was all still there.
My first Bible was a Good News Bible. When I first heard someone refer to it as a paraphrase, my reaction was something along the lines of, Say What? Even though it sits more towards the "dynamic equivalence" part of the translation spectrum than a more formal translation, I still value its contribution to the body of Bible translations.
@@richardvoogd705 yes!! did yours have the little cartoon drawings? my mom's had these very simplistic, stylized illustrations scattered throughout hers. as a kid, the translation + those pictures were so valuable to my understanding. it's still a translation i hold very near and dear to my heart and get quite protective of. all the bible verses she'd write on little notecards to slip into my backpack or lunch boxes growing up came from that bible.
I would love for you to do a video about the passion translation. I’ve heard lots of debates on that one and at one point I wanted to read it. But then I got scared off 😅
Thank you for this video, Tim. I enjoyed it. I've always been warned away from The Message, but now think I might give it a look. Of course, I'd like to check it out not for in-depth Bible Study but for casual reading. Thanks! Love your Translation Tuesdays! :)
Oh, and BTW, if you have a few folks attempting to cancel you because of a simple disagreement, you probably don't want them around in the first place.
I love these Translation Tuesdays! And, this was a great topic that you shared this week. I feel better about possibly reading the Message some time. I do not currently own one.
I'm definitely, in the "this is a paraphrase" camp. Additionally, there are levels of meaning and insight that only the KJV and the NKJV retain, given the translators fidelity to the Majority text. I also support your discussion of this, and appreciate it. I use multiple translations with regularity, but this is not one I would employ or recommend. Thanks for the discussion Tim! P.S.. The NLT is a better choice for the ends the message seeks to accomplish!
I'm much closer to calling it a paraphrase than a translation, strictly based on my own antidotal evidence. I almost read The Message from the pulpit once because of how clear it seemed to make the text I was working on. However, after much study, I saw that it read better because Peterson had simplified the passage by doing a bit of a paraphrase that removed one of the exegetical options for interpreting the text. In essence it was his "translation" that determined the meaning of the text. Haven't picked it up since and can't imagine I will again. I would list the text for you, but my foggy memory simply won't allow it. My apologies.
Yes to both. Peterson was seminary trained and qualified to complete translation work from biblical greek and Hebrew. The intro pages to the MSG state that it is in fact a translation from original language. However, the translator took a ton of liberty rendering passages in ways his "meat and potatoes small town working class Montana congregation" could understand. It's really a pastoral work at heart reflective of petersons artistic style and love for the common man.
Great video! I did not have a positive opinion on the Message for the longest time. Then, several years ago, I was listening to a lecture from Dr. Bill Mounce and he was talking about the advantages of using multiple translations, "Including the Message". I thought to myself, if someone like Dr. Mounce doesn't have a problem with the Message I shouldn't either. I have since figured out the people who are the least pretentious about Bible translations are the actual translators themselves.
My thanks, Tim, for your charitable, and thoughtful response about The MESSAGE and to folk whose charity in-Christ is seriously lacking and rivaled only by their imagination regarding their power as (negative) influencers. The MESSAGE is not my primary translation but translation it definitely is and it definitely is not any let alone all that its detractors make out. Silly is the attempt to essentially DOX you with screenshots of their righteous (ahem) removal of support. "Big boys don't cry" but they do leave an awful mess in their wake online. Tim, I am happy to support you in per-ordering your book (technically, waiting with a notice on my calendar for the release date of the Kindle copy) and I will actually per-order a physical copy for a nephew who will appreciate it. / May you thrive. P.S. Subscribed to this channel.
Most people think that it is paraphrased, but I guess that the modern language makes that the case. I personally think that it doesn't matter what translation or paraphrase you use as long as it gets you closer to God. Thanks Tim!!
Tim I come to your channel for your opinion. In fact, I am grateful you have an opinion and that it challenges me from time to time. Your manner of delivery is so inviting and wholesome I honestly have a hard time imagining someone taking offense, let alone cancelling orders and subscriptions. Are we so intolerant of differing opinions that we resort to this? Really? If you are keeping the theme of Translation Tuesdays going, I have a suggestion: There are some less well known translations out there that do have some merits - Young’s Literal, Goodspeed’s An American Bible, the New Jerusalem Version (not the New Jerusalem Bible) - and I think may be well worth mentioning on your channel. Just a thought.
Hi Tim. Thought this was a helpful analysis. I think the term "translation" comes with some extra weight in some or most people's minds indicating that the output is solid and trustworthy. For some reason we have a hard time saying a translation is good or bad, instead we throw it on a spectrum but give it the same or similar weight as other translations. And The Message just doesn't seem like it deserves that status, so people object to calling it a translation. I noticed you had the NLT as the nearest to The Message. From what I understand, no one really has any objection to the NLT being a translation even though the language is pretty modern. Would be interesting to compare the ESV, The Living Bible (isn't that the predecessor to the NLT?) , the NLT and The Message and just see how different (or similar) they are. The Living Bible is truly a paraphrase so would be interesting...
Even though I disagree and put it fully into the paraphrase category I'm not going to cancel you over that disagreement. Peterson's rendering of Romans 12:1-2 is actually used as an example in the "Herman Who" course from Wretched Network as to how to tell you're crossing the line into paraphrase.
Great video, Tim. I agree it doesn't need to be either/or, but can be both/and. Personally, I find myself sceptical of a Bible that has a particular individual's name on it, but there are a few stand out phrases in the Message, such as "The Word became flesh and blood and moved into the neighbourhood" in John 1:14. I occasionally dip into it when preparing to preach, but it isn't one of my immediate go-to resources. Funnily enough, I find that elderly people in our congregation prefer it to the younger folks. We have one retired Pastor who loves to read the words of institution from it when we celebrate Communion, which I've really come to appreciate! “Let me go over with you again exactly what goes on in the Lord’s Supper and why it is so centrally important. I received my instructions from the Master himself and passed them on to you. The Master, Jesus, on the night of his betrayal, took bread. Having given thanks, he broke it and said, 'This is my body, broken for you. Do this to remember me.' After supper, he did the same thing with the cup: 'This cup is my blood, my new covenant with you. Each time you drink this cup, remember me.' "What you must solemnly realise is that every time you eat this bread and every time you drink this cup, you reenact in your words and actions the death of the Master. You will be drawn back to this meal again and again until the Master returns. You must never let familiarity breed contempt. Anyone who eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Master irreverently is like part of the crowd that jeered and spit on him at his death. Is that the kind of 'remembrance' you want to be part of? Examine your motives, test your heart, come to this meal in holy awe" (1st Corinthians 11:23-28). Again, Peterson takes a few liberties, but it's recognisable and beautiful. I like the not letting familiarity breed contempt line, and that gracious invitation, "come to this meal in holy awe." 😊 I'm loving Translation Tuesdays, and am looking forward to your book being delivered! Keep up the good work, brother.
Thanks Tim! I don't get it why people make screenshots of the unscribing etcetera. Very childish. I changed my mind about the Message when I heard Eugene really studied the languages, had his degrees and translated from the Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic languages themselves. So he really knew what the words meant, and then tried to convey them to us plebs. Much respect for Eugene. And for you for not shying away the discussion 😀 Keep it up! Blessings :)
I’ve never read that book, I don’t know much about the message translation besides that some people think it’s a resource and not a Bible to read, I know I’ll never pick up the passion translation But I want to say that as a young Christian women, I seek to be very open minded especially within the discussion about our bibles and faith and the Bible, what should and shouldn’t be followed
Tim: Again, another really good video explaining and clarifying your opinion re: the Message. I personally do not consider the Message to be a bible translation but rather a paraphrase. However, this does not mean the Message is void of value. I believe it to be a resource that has merit for new Christians just starting to read the Word.of God, as well as a supplemental, secondary biblical resource for mature Christians. Unfortunately, the Message appears to be a text that polarizes Christians; so, I would not worry about the hard-line comments.
The problem with quoting from The Message, is that it's an endorsement. You would be better off making up your own paraphrase in the moment based on your own study. There are to many scriptures that are problematic in this book to call it a translation. If it's a translation, then It's a very bad one. If it's a paraphrase, then we can be more generous.
Peterson was an outstanding theologian, and keenly aware of the subtleties of Greek and Hebrew. Therefore, I'd deem The Message a valid translation akin to other dynamic equivalent translations. The only "dangerous" thing are those who are unable to assimilate new experience and information into a fuller knowledge of the truth -- a fear-based gift of suspicion. Don't worry about such, Tim. Distractions. Keep polishing the pearls gifted to you, my brother. Hugs.
It’s definitely a paraphrase… It’s even set up using blocks of scripture instead of verse by verse . He probably thought of it as a translation because it’s his project that he worked on . I personally believe that the message should never be used without a standard reliable accepted next to it. It should only be used as an extra study tool for understanding, and I believe it should never be preached out of as a primary translation. Still getting your book though Tim your work is great. I just think this is a bad take.
Cervantes said that reading anything in other than its original language was like looking at the back of a tapestry. Truth. It's stunning how language and thought are tied together. Word for word translation can result in near gibberish. Once you truly understand the original language, you realize that making sense when moving from one language to another necessitates choices, and those choices have a ripple effect to (at least) adjacent text. When I took Greek, we first learnt Mark, his wonderfully straightforward. To move from him to Luke is night and day. Our first semester final was our own translations of selections from the apocrypha. The class spanned the whole range and have us an appreciation for the dilemma between approaches, and the nuance in the original language that's lost in word for word translation
Good video Tim. It’s been years since I read the Message, but I remember being uncomfortable with how he adds an attitude into Jesus. As a quick example: Mark 2:17, “Jesus said to them” - Ιησούς λέγει αυτούς - Peterson translates “Jesus shot back”. In today’s language, it sort of carries an attitude of perhaps arrogance. Just little things like that can unknowingly color our thinking about Jesus. We don’t know if He said it with attitude or not, so it’s maybe better just to stick to what the biblical text actually says. Just my thoughts. It’s great to refer to, but I’d be a bit leery of using it as my only window into the text.
Very thoughtful insight, I can understand why you call it a translation. I would say it’s either a good paraphrase or a bad translation so I say good paraphrase. As long as someone’s not using it as their main bible people are good.
I do have this Bible. I bought it because it was referenced in our church and I was curious. There was something about it that made me put it down. I tried a number of times, but the result was the same. I will be donating it. I would most definitely never judge anyone if it were their Bible of choice. Thank you for another great video! 😁
Thanks Tim! Loving the whole series, whether it’s classed as a translation or not, for me anyway, isn’t an issue. However, for me the safety net of a team discussion is missing and we end up with one man’s interpretation, a bit like JB Philips New Testament (translation/paraphrase???) And anyway you’ve cost me a fortune already with the other translations so no space left on the bookshelf! Blessings from deepest Dorset U.K. 🇬🇧🇺🇸
If it is used as a devotional book it can work maybe. But it is more of a sermon illustration of the scriptures rather than as a translation itself in my humble opinion.
Hey Tim! Big fan of your channel and love the quality of video content you put out. Here's an idea for one of you translation Tuesday's: Why are black letter Bibles traditionally found in premium Bibles and why is red letter so pervasive for mass Bible publishing? Is the red letter feature just that popular and strongly preferred? It so sad to me that it's so hard to find readable bibles in black letter text without having to get a premium Bible. Why is this? Thanks again!
I honestly thing some people get the Message and the Passion mixed up, which is unfortunate. I've seen this first hand multiple times. Love Eugene Peterson and his work. Would I ever preach from it or use it for deep study? No. But I have one. The Passion is just heresy.
This is the best video you have ever made, Peterson is a giant and the Message has great value for the purpose Peterson intended for it. He did not intend it to be a study bible.
Thank you, Tim, for this video. I have always thought of The Message as a paraphrase. It sounds like how a pastor will reword a passage to make it more understanding for his specific congregation. Based on the name of it, I though that maybe the writer was trying to make the Bible into a giant sermon. I don't have a problem with that, per se, but feel that it won't stand the test of time due to ever-changing colloquialisms, and already, things have changed. I do not own a copy and don't intend to, but have read it in the Bible apps I have.
I went and bought a cheap paperback copy of "The Message" at the same time I bought Eugene Paterson's biography. Sure, it's a translation, but it's a very paraphrastic translation.
From what I've learned of it, it is not a paraphrase. And biased against true Christian doctrine. Should be moved to the fiction section with the Passion translation.
This was an informative video. Well handled Tim. Just to add a comment and my take... Calling it a paraphrase is really doing it a favour. If you have to augment definitions of terms to eke out a defence of calling it a translation you're clutching at straws. We already have such great tools such as the Amplified which uses the KJV as a foundation which is much safer as it is referencing a trusted foundation. Is The Message a useful tool? Sure, but calling it a translation would tend to give it a foundational element and indicate that it can be read on it's own and I certainly couldn't recommend anyone to use this as their bible/"translation".
Tim, I think I need to correct you in the statement of what a translation is because I think there is a confusion with the word translation .The word translation by itself simply means an interpretation. A translation does not mean something literal or word for word. As many people tend to believe. The concept of a translation is simply conveying thoughts, ideas and expression from one target language to another language and guess what ? all you are doing is automatically interpreting a text you are putting meaning from one language to another. In other words it’s a version of the text you are putting out. And even if you try to do a word for word,it’s still an interpretation. It’s a version. So as to the the message bible, it is a translation, but a contemporary modern paraphrase translation or version. So you are right it is a translation or a version of the Bible. All English Bibles are typically a version.
Romans 15:13 Message Oh! May the God of green hope fill you up with joy, fill you up with peace, so that your believing lives, filled with the life-giving energy of the Holy Spirit, will brim over with hope! The God of green hope….. Why? It’s so wrong.
So, I went to the Bible app and compared the ESV and MSG versions of Romans 12:1-2. I agree that the MSG rendering adds to my understanding but isn't exactly a translation. I can also see why my NLT is nearby on your line graph. After watching your videos, and with a sale on Amazon, I just got an ESV Study Bible in large print. Thanks!
I wasn't familiar with this so I read a few chapters and, it's different. My first take is that it is somewhat imprecise but perhaps more accessible to those that haven't read the Bible for a long time and used to more popular translations. I don't think that I would want to use this.
I was given a New Testament version of The Message for my 18th birthday as the full version wasn’t finished yet. I’m not a fan. I think there are better translations out there, but that’s just me.
You should have compared the scriptures where "The Message" deviates the most significantly. It's these areas that call into the question the quality of the entire work. But yeah "technically" a translation. Good video though.
Great video Tim! I've always heard to stay away from The Message but i appreciate your research and perspective. i plan to do my homework Professor on Romans😅. I would be interested to hear your perspective on the Passion translation because that one is in the same boat as the Message for me- stay far far away! i would love to hear your thoughts.
It doesn’t matter if they went back to the original source, what matters is what philosophy they use. There is no way I could consider the Message a translation. It is definitely way way on the paraphrase side. The proof of the pudding is in the reading.
I can't believe that people would cancel book orders and stop watching Tim's videos over this. It's like they'll allow Tim to review and discuss whatever only as long as it's what they want to hear. But how can we grow and learn if we're not presented with alternative ideas or things we might disagree with? Tim I love your videos. I'm going to order another book to give to a friend. Keep doing what you do!
Thanks.
It is very pharisee-esque
This kind of stuff happens to pastors all the time. It comes with the territory unfortunately.
People always look for reasons to act outraged by everything. It is a group of narrow minded and foolish people. It is a sad state of affairs about how unchristian evangelicalism has become.
I get the cancelling book orders and stop watching videos actually. But I find it very childish to let Tim know that you cancelled your book order and unsubscribe. Just cancel, shut up and move on lol
Forgive the essay. I’m a former Greek teacher, so I am conversant with Greek, but not Hebrew. I’ll admit that I hated on The Message to my students (HS students at a Classical Christian School). Back then, the version of The Message I found online contained a rendition of Psalm 1 that referred to “smart-mouth college” and “sin saloon” and other gag-worthy anachronisms. I held that passage up to them as an example of a translation that would fail in my class.
In the 12 or 13 years since I was a Greek teacher, I’ve gained an appreciation for Eugene Peterson and The Message. Even though I trust that Peterson worked from the original languages for the entire project, I regard some passages of The Message as translation and some as paraphrase. I’m comfortable labeling the passages that you pointed out translations because they are at least dynamic equivalents to the original. But other passages like Psalm 1 (granted, I don’t know Hebrew) are closer to paraphrase.
The Message’s rendition of Job 38 (again, I’m out of my depth) is what converted me to recognizing its value.
In verses 8-11, the ESV is beautifully subtle in capturing the metaphor of the sea being like a baby: “I made clouds its garment and thick darkness its swaddling band, and prescribed limits for it and set bars and doors, and said, ‘Thus far shall you come, and no farther, and here shall your proud waves be stayed.”
But check it out in The Message: “And who took charge of the ocean when it gushed forth like a baby from the womb? That was me! I wrapped it in soft clouds, and tucked it in safely at night. Then I made a playpen for it, a strong playpen so it couldn’t run loose, And said, ‘Stay here, this is your place. Your wild tantrums are confined to this place.”
Wow! I caught the imagery so much easier in The Message and that guided my meditation on the passage. That’s the value I see in The Message.
Great point of view! I’ve never read the message translation but have been told not to, hearing this verse is very interesting though, what a helpful way to describe the ocean!
This was an excellent video, Tim! I use Accordance Bible Software, so I copied the verses you talked about into a Word document so I could visually see the comparisons you made between ESV and The Message. This was eye-opening for me. I would have never thought to use “The Message” translation until I saw your video. The visual comparison quickly shows the sentence structure, and depending on your application, it can bring more clarity to scripture reading. You also shared your thoughts, concerns, and recommendations for using these translations. This is another tool in the Bible study toolbox that empowers the reader, giving them options and choices to put more clarity into their Bible study.
An issue I have with the Message Bible is how often it can sound dated, not in the majestic way the KJV does, but in a "grampa trying to sound hip" way.
Good point!
Keep them coming, Tim, very informative.
Thanks, will do!
Of all the issues in this world, this was what people were so upset over? Great response Tim. I enjoyed learning more about the Message
The first time I read the Bible cover to cover was The Message. It primed the pump for me to love the Word more and dig deeper into other translations. It’s a valuable resource for someone new to faith or who would otherwise not read the Bible because it’s challenging.
Same for me back in the mid '70s with The Living Bible and the Good News Bible. I then got an NIV.
@macherie1234 my first Bible was a Good News Bible, my second one was an NIV. It wasn't until relatively recently, about 40 years later, that I bought a copy of the Living Bible. My personal library now contains a variety of translations, representing a variety of translation styles and study notes, and even languages other than English.
Tim, I don’t agree with all your opinions and thoughts, but they are needed and helpful. We need to have more conversations not less. Keep them coming!
Love this series Tim. The wrestling with these questions IS faith. - it IS the work of getting to know Him better. Thanks for leading us through it. Looking forward to next week.
I love Tuesday's with Tim!
I am really enjoying these translation videos and I hope that Translation Tuesday remains a permanent part of your offerings. Some more foundational videos might be helpful, such as a discussion about the differences, and similarities between Formal and Dynamic. Also, in thinking about it, a video or two on the history of the Masoretic text would be fun, since it is the primary basis for many of the modern versions OT.
Thanks so much!
tim, i LOVE this video! honestly, i thought the same thing about The Message for years and then i read A Burning in My Bones and it challenged me to read the Message itself. I went ahead and read The Message for a Bible Shred challenge (the whole bible in 30 days!) and it TRANSFORMED my love of and understanding of the Bible. i made a whole video about my time reading The Message in 30 days, and then the entire ESV study bible in a year immediately after, and how that was the single greatest thing i have ever done for my personal relationship with Christ! absolutely stellar video sir, don't let any of the haters get you down - you are doing AMAZING work!! also, i love this series so much, please keep it going forever :D can't wait for the book!
Love this. Thanks for sharing!
Bro. Why don't you try reading something better like the Contemporary English Version?
@@ancientxtitan9313 actually planning on doing just that! :) My goal is to do a read through of all the major translations (done NLT, ESV, The Message, and NASB so far!) so that i am much more equipped to talk with people about any of them. Do you like the CEV? I don't think i personally know anyone who's read that, so i'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how it ranks? The one i'm really interested in next is the full-notes NET
@@readlikeaman I do like the CEV very easy to understand. It is my morning reading Bible. My mother bought it more than 10 years ago. I found it on our library after being interested in reading other translations other than NKJV. NKJV was may main Bible translation for 15 years. I read the NIV, NLT, CSB, Berean Standard Bible. I love all those. Now I'm planning on getting NET Full Notes, and then maybe the NASB. Not a big fan of the ESV. It's great there are many of us who desire to read many translations.
@@ancientxtitan9313 man I love that! Yeah I’ll def be moving CEV up the list now! I think you’ll like the NASB, I really enjoyed that one! And I couldn’t agree more man, I’ve gained so much from reading the different versions and have things that I love about all of them. Really wish more people would be open to reading more because I think there’s such value in it..
I have been a Christian all my life but I have definitely tried to deepen my walk with Jesus lately more so than ever. Some of the most judgmental unkind knee-jerk reactions I've ever seen from any group of people have been from so-called Christians. Without seeking to understand they are quick to condemn. Tim I think you even said it best when you said the number one thing that turns people away from Christianity is Christians. Tim you have always been fair and balanced in your approach always offered reason for why you felt or said a certain thing I have not bought your book but I plan to . The main point here is to read your Bible to understand it and what Jesus meant. Some people require different tools to do that. I'm no pastor but I can tell you if you read your Bible and you really understand what it says you would not treat other people that way. If you look at what brother Tim has done he has given away a ton of Bibles he has opened himself up to conversation if you disagree with him. If your first reaction to anything is anger then you missed everything Jesus taught us. Jesus is King Lord and savior
It is kinda like a commentaryish text. It is definitely a paraphrase
Mr. Tim, continue being yourself and let the critics pass by. The first Bible I read was the Message, and it had a significant impact on me as a kid. That copy remains on my Bible shelf and will always have a spot there. Just be yourself sir and disregard the noise.
Thank you for this. Definitely a balanced video that I deeply appreciate. One of the things the Eugene Peterson always mentioned was that he saw people using this bible in tandem with other translations. In the intro to "The Message" he states that The Message "is a reading bible...it is not intended to replace the excellent study bibles that are available." I have always appreciated The Message and still refer to it alongside my ESV. There was a point a number of years back when I was a bit burned out in my bible reading and teaching, and it was spending a year just reading through the Message that helped to revitalize my passion for scripture. So, I will always be grateful for The Message and the life of Eugene Peterson, particularly today on the anniversary of his death.
I know very little about The Message, but I think you've hit the nail on the head with your assessment of it. These TT videos are brilliant Tim! Really fascinating stuff.
I believe it is a paraphrase but a very helpful resource!
Please keep doing these! They're helpfully substantive, a nice change from Bible reviews that focus on the physical attributes of a particular Bible.
Thank you Tim. This was a great explanation. I own a couple of “The Message” Bibles. I have not read it entirely but I have looked at different passages when I found myself wanted to understand something in clearer terms. In the same way I would compare any other translation to what I’m currently reading (ESV). As with other translations, the idea Eugene Peterson had, I believe, was to help people grasp the message of God’s word to any reader. I think you can’t knock it until you understand why it was done the way it was. Thank you Tim for doing all the research for us. I appreciate you. Blessings.
You're welcome!
I have enjoyed these videos. I own different translations and compare them when I am studying. My oldest son prefers the message bible because he claims he understands what he is reading better. For Christmas he received from me this year a Bible that had NIV and the message side by side so that he could see both together when he reads his Bible.
Loving these videos I'm learning a lot from them and I think I can even go as far as saying that Translation Tuesdays are my favourite videos on your channel now.
Glad you like them!
Another great video. I am looking forward to the next Translation Tuesday!
I'm really enjoying this series. I understand the passion that people have, but it seems silly to get so angry and worked up when there is disagreement. It does make it confusing for people who are new to faith or just starting their education. That is why I really appreciate your calm and neutral presentation that just lays out the information so that the viewers can draw their own conclusions. I went ahead and joined your channel to make up for the silly person who left over a simple disagreement of ideas :)
Totally agree. I find that Facebook is the worst about this for some reason. People over their get so feisty.
Thank you for another great video. Don’t let that one “hater” get you down!! He may have unsubscribed but I think he’s still watching ALL of your videos, shorts, posts…but he’d never admit it!!! 😂🤣 I currently enjoy reading the CSB and NLT. Our church uses the ESV and I read it too but not as much as the other two. I’d love if you would do a full comparison of these three translations. TIA and keep up the good work!!! 😊
I don't think Peterson intended it to be someone's primary Bible. The Message is almost like his commentary on the Bible. I think it was improved with the 2018 revision. I enjoy it for devotional purposes and was glad you mentioned Romans 12:1-2. That is my favorite rendering of that passage.
I remember reading in the introduction to a publication of part of the JB Phillips translation the idea that if a paraphrase is saying something a different way, all translations are, in a sense, a paraphrase.
First off, loving translation Tuesdays! It gives us a bit of the mind of an author.
Secondly, I honestly use the Message as more of a commentary cause to me it is sounds more like a teacher in Sunday School.
Great work, thank you, Tim!
Glad you enjoyed it!
I'm glad you covered this one! I've had my hang-ups with The Message, but hearing your rationale for calling it a translation has helped me understand better...ultimately it's just not for me, but I appreciate what it's going for. And I'm really enjoying Translation Tuesdays - keep up the great work!
Got me thinking brother. I don't know if I quite agree, but I will say that you definitely made me think about the definition of translation. Can't wait to read that book!
Love these keep them coming!
to me the message is kind of a mixed bag. there's some verses/passages that just sound straight up goofy with the lax/modern slang/language, but then there's some that really stand out in a unique way and genuinely move me. i had a youth pastor as a kid solely teach from the message. i think it's fine to have and use, but i also think it's good to have another easy-to-understand translation like NIV or ESV or NKJV on deck to get the full scope of things. side note: my mom grew up only ever reading the good news translation. it's a "paraphrase" too but growing up with her reading from it to us, i don't feel like we missed out on any key message. the heart of it was all still there.
My first Bible was a Good News Bible. When I first heard someone refer to it as a paraphrase, my reaction was something along the lines of, Say What? Even though it sits more towards the "dynamic equivalence" part of the translation spectrum than a more formal translation, I still value its contribution to the body of Bible translations.
@@richardvoogd705 yes!! did yours have the little cartoon drawings? my mom's had these very simplistic, stylized illustrations scattered throughout hers. as a kid, the translation + those pictures were so valuable to my understanding. it's still a translation i hold very near and dear to my heart and get quite protective of. all the bible verses she'd write on little notecards to slip into my backpack or lunch boxes growing up came from that bible.
I would love for you to do a video about the passion translation. I’ve heard lots of debates on that one and at one point I wanted to read it. But then I got scared off 😅
Coming soon-ish.
@@timwildsmith oh yay!! I’ll keep an eye out! Thanks!
Thank you for this video, Tim. I enjoyed it. I've always been warned away from The Message, but now think I might give it a look. Of course, I'd like to check it out not for in-depth Bible Study but for casual reading. Thanks! Love your Translation Tuesdays! :)
Oh, and BTW, if you have a few folks attempting to cancel you because of a simple disagreement, you probably don't want them around in the first place.
Translation Tuesday I think is a great idea and there are so many great topics to discuss!
I love these Translation Tuesdays! And, this was a great topic that you shared this week. I feel better about possibly reading the Message some time. I do not currently own one.
I'm definitely, in the "this is a paraphrase" camp. Additionally, there are levels of meaning and insight that only the KJV and the NKJV retain, given the translators fidelity to the Majority text. I also support your discussion of this, and appreciate it. I use multiple translations with regularity, but this is not one I would employ or recommend. Thanks for the discussion Tim! P.S.. The NLT is a better choice for the ends the message seeks to accomplish!
Great video. I have always considered it a paraphrase. Own a couple, have yet to read it. This video was very helpful.
Love “Translation Tuesday”!
Great job on this one! ❤
Tim, I'm sorry that you experienced so much backlash on this. 😢 I also don't consider it to be a translation. But, your views are always appreciated ❤
I'm much closer to calling it a paraphrase than a translation, strictly based on my own antidotal evidence. I almost read The Message from the pulpit once because of how clear it seemed to make the text I was working on. However, after much study, I saw that it read better because Peterson had simplified the passage by doing a bit of a paraphrase that removed one of the exegetical options for interpreting the text. In essence it was his "translation" that determined the meaning of the text. Haven't picked it up since and can't imagine I will again. I would list the text for you, but my foggy memory simply won't allow it. My apologies.
Yes to both. Peterson was seminary trained and qualified to complete translation work from biblical greek and Hebrew. The intro pages to the MSG state that it is in fact a translation from original language. However, the translator took a ton of liberty rendering passages in ways his "meat and potatoes small town working class Montana congregation" could understand. It's really a pastoral work at heart reflective of petersons artistic style and love for the common man.
I think you’ll enjoy the video.
Great video! I did not have a positive opinion on the Message for the longest time. Then, several years ago, I was listening to a lecture from Dr. Bill Mounce and he was talking about the advantages of using multiple translations, "Including the Message".
I thought to myself, if someone like Dr. Mounce doesn't have a problem with the Message I shouldn't either.
I have since figured out the people who are the least pretentious about Bible translations are the actual translators themselves.
My thanks, Tim, for your charitable, and thoughtful response about The MESSAGE and to folk whose charity in-Christ is seriously lacking and rivaled only by their imagination regarding their power as (negative) influencers. The MESSAGE is not my primary translation but translation it definitely is and it definitely is not any let alone all that its detractors make out. Silly is the attempt to essentially DOX you with screenshots of their righteous (ahem) removal of support. "Big boys don't cry" but they do leave an awful mess in their wake online.
Tim, I am happy to support you in per-ordering your book (technically, waiting with a notice on my calendar for the release date of the Kindle copy) and I will actually per-order a physical copy for a nephew who will appreciate it. / May you thrive.
P.S. Subscribed to this channel.
Thank you!
Most people think that it is paraphrased, but I guess that the modern language makes that the case. I personally think that it doesn't matter what translation or paraphrase you use as long as it gets you closer to God. Thanks Tim!!
Exactly.
Tim I come to your channel for your opinion. In fact, I am grateful you have an opinion and that it challenges me from time to time. Your manner of delivery is so inviting and wholesome I honestly have a hard time imagining someone taking offense, let alone cancelling orders and subscriptions. Are we so intolerant of differing opinions that we resort to this? Really? If you are keeping the theme of Translation Tuesdays going, I have a suggestion: There are some less well known translations out there that do have some merits - Young’s Literal, Goodspeed’s An American Bible, the New Jerusalem Version (not the New Jerusalem Bible) - and I think may be well worth mentioning on your channel. Just a thought.
Hi Tim. Thought this was a helpful analysis. I think the term "translation" comes with some extra weight in some or most people's minds indicating that the output is solid and trustworthy. For some reason we have a hard time saying a translation is good or bad, instead we throw it on a spectrum but give it the same or similar weight as other translations. And The Message just doesn't seem like it deserves that status, so people object to calling it a translation. I noticed you had the NLT as the nearest to The Message. From what I understand, no one really has any objection to the NLT being a translation even though the language is pretty modern. Would be interesting to compare the ESV, The Living Bible (isn't that the predecessor to the NLT?) , the NLT and The Message and just see how different (or similar) they are. The Living Bible is truly a paraphrase so would be interesting...
Very interesting take on the message
I’ve never touched it before
Even though I disagree and put it fully into the paraphrase category I'm not going to cancel you over that disagreement. Peterson's rendering of Romans 12:1-2 is actually used as an example in the "Herman Who" course from Wretched Network as to how to tell you're crossing the line into paraphrase.
Great video, Tim. I agree it doesn't need to be either/or, but can be both/and.
Personally, I find myself sceptical of a Bible that has a particular individual's name on it, but there are a few stand out phrases in the Message, such as "The Word became flesh and blood and moved into the neighbourhood" in John 1:14.
I occasionally dip into it when preparing to preach, but it isn't one of my immediate go-to resources.
Funnily enough, I find that elderly people in our congregation prefer it to the younger folks. We have one retired Pastor who loves to read the words of institution from it when we celebrate Communion, which I've really come to appreciate!
“Let me go over with you again exactly what goes on in the Lord’s Supper and why it is so centrally important. I received my instructions from the Master himself and passed them on to you. The Master, Jesus, on the night of his betrayal, took bread. Having given thanks, he broke it and said, 'This is my body, broken for you. Do this to remember me.' After supper, he did the same thing with the cup: 'This cup is my blood, my new covenant with you. Each time you drink this cup, remember me.'
"What you must solemnly realise is that every time you eat this bread and every time you drink this cup, you reenact in your words and actions the death of the Master. You will be drawn back to this meal again and again until the Master returns. You must never let familiarity breed contempt.
Anyone who eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Master irreverently is like part of the crowd that jeered and spit on him at his death. Is that the kind of 'remembrance' you want to be part of? Examine your motives, test your heart, come to this meal in holy awe"
(1st Corinthians 11:23-28).
Again, Peterson takes a few liberties, but it's recognisable and beautiful. I like the not letting familiarity breed contempt line, and that gracious invitation, "come to this meal in holy awe." 😊
I'm loving Translation Tuesdays, and am looking forward to your book being delivered! Keep up the good work, brother.
Thanks for sharing!
Thanks Tim! I don't get it why people make screenshots of the unscribing etcetera. Very childish. I changed my mind about the Message when I heard Eugene really studied the languages, had his degrees and translated from the Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic languages themselves. So he really knew what the words meant, and then tried to convey them to us plebs. Much respect for Eugene. And for you for not shying away the discussion 😀 Keep it up! Blessings :)
Thanks!
I’ve never read that book, I don’t know much about the message translation besides that some people think it’s a resource and not a Bible to read, I know I’ll never pick up the passion translation
But I want to say that as a young Christian women, I seek to be very open minded especially within the discussion about our bibles and faith and the Bible, what should and shouldn’t be followed
Tim: Again, another really good video explaining and clarifying your opinion re: the Message. I personally do not consider the Message to be a bible translation but rather a paraphrase. However, this does not mean the Message is void of value. I believe it to be a resource that has merit for new Christians just starting to read the Word.of God, as well as a supplemental, secondary biblical resource for mature Christians. Unfortunately, the Message appears to be a text that polarizes Christians; so, I would not worry about the hard-line comments.
I definitely believe it is a paraphrase and do not recommend it for daily reading
The problem with quoting from The Message, is that it's an endorsement. You would be better off making up your own paraphrase in the moment based on your own study. There are to many scriptures that are problematic in this book to call it a translation. If it's a translation, then It's a very bad one. If it's a paraphrase, then we can be more generous.
I own and have read Winn Colliers book, “A Burning in My Bones”. I also own numerous copies of “The Message” in my collection.
Peterson was an outstanding theologian, and keenly aware of the subtleties of Greek and Hebrew. Therefore, I'd deem The Message a valid translation akin to other dynamic equivalent translations. The only "dangerous" thing are those who are unable to assimilate new experience and information into a fuller knowledge of the truth -- a fear-based gift of suspicion. Don't worry about such, Tim. Distractions. Keep polishing the pearls gifted to you, my brother. Hugs.
It’s definitely a paraphrase… It’s even set up using blocks of scripture instead of verse by verse . He probably thought of it as a translation because it’s his project that he worked on . I personally believe that the message should never be used without a standard reliable accepted next to it. It should only be used as an extra study tool for understanding, and I believe it should never be preached out of as a primary translation. Still getting your book though Tim your work is great. I just think this is a bad take.
Cervantes said that reading anything in other than its original language was like looking at the back of a tapestry. Truth. It's stunning how language and thought are tied together. Word for word translation can result in near gibberish. Once you truly understand the original language, you realize that making sense when moving from one language to another necessitates choices, and those choices have a ripple effect to (at least) adjacent text.
When I took Greek, we first learnt Mark, his wonderfully straightforward. To move from him to Luke is night and day. Our first semester final was our own translations of selections from the apocrypha. The class spanned the whole range and have us an appreciation for the dilemma between approaches, and the nuance in the original language that's lost in word for word translation
Excellant explanation. And … good observation on how to use The Message in study.
Good video Tim. It’s been years since I read the Message, but I remember being uncomfortable with how he adds an attitude into Jesus. As a quick example: Mark 2:17, “Jesus said to them” - Ιησούς λέγει αυτούς - Peterson translates “Jesus shot back”. In today’s language, it sort of carries an attitude of perhaps arrogance. Just little things like that can unknowingly color our thinking about Jesus. We don’t know if He said it with attitude or not, so it’s maybe better just to stick to what the biblical text actually says. Just my thoughts. It’s great to refer to, but I’d be a bit leery of using it as my only window into the text.
Tim, once again I have learned a lot! Let's call it a Para-lation.😃😃 Love Tuesday Translations!
I liked this video. You should do the Passion Translation some time. According to Youversion, it’s not even complete with all 66 books.
Great fun and love Tuesday videos
Very Good, Thank you, this has been very helpful.
Very thoughtful insight, I can understand why you call it a translation. I would say it’s either a good paraphrase or a bad translation so I say good paraphrase. As long as someone’s not using it as their main bible people are good.
I do have this Bible. I bought it because it was referenced in our church and I was curious. There was something about it that made me put it down. I tried a number of times, but the result was the same. I will be donating it. I would most definitely never judge anyone if it were their Bible of choice. Thank you for another great video! 😁
Thanks Tim! Loving the whole series, whether it’s classed as a translation or not, for me anyway, isn’t an issue. However, for me the safety net of a team discussion is missing and we end up with one man’s interpretation, a bit like JB Philips New Testament (translation/paraphrase???) And anyway you’ve cost me a fortune already with the other translations so no space left on the bookshelf! Blessings from deepest Dorset U.K. 🇬🇧🇺🇸
If it is used as a devotional book it can work maybe. But it is more of a sermon illustration of the scriptures rather than as a translation itself in my humble opinion.
Hey Tim! Big fan of your channel and love the quality of video content you put out. Here's an idea for one of you translation Tuesday's:
Why are black letter Bibles traditionally found in premium Bibles and why is red letter so pervasive for mass Bible publishing? Is the red letter feature just that popular and strongly preferred? It so sad to me that it's so hard to find readable bibles in black letter text without having to get a premium Bible. Why is this? Thanks again!
Is the Message a translation or a paraphrase?
Yes. 😉
Hahaha… wait til you see the final segment of this video!
I honestly thing some people get the Message and the Passion mixed up, which is unfortunate. I've seen this first hand multiple times.
Love Eugene Peterson and his work. Would I ever preach from it or use it for deep study? No. But I have one.
The Passion is just heresy.
It doesn’t take a hebrew or greek scholar to see that the Message is clearly NOT a translation.
Did you even watch the video?
This is the best video you have ever made, Peterson is a giant and the Message has great value for the purpose Peterson intended for it. He did not intend it to be a study bible.
It’s both! Regardless. I really appreciate the Message.
Thank you, Tim, for this video. I have always thought of The Message as a paraphrase. It sounds like how a pastor will reword a passage to make it more understanding for his specific congregation. Based on the name of it, I though that maybe the writer was trying to make the Bible into a giant sermon. I don't have a problem with that, per se, but feel that it won't stand the test of time due to ever-changing colloquialisms, and already, things have changed. I do not own a copy and don't intend to, but have read it in the Bible apps I have.
Enjoy immensely
Great job 👍🏽
Thank you!
I went and bought a cheap paperback copy of "The Message" at the same time I bought Eugene Paterson's biography. Sure, it's a translation, but it's a very paraphrastic translation.
I’m genuinely curious if those that are cancelling book preorders are kjv only peeps. That would explain it all.
I did not get that impression.
The Message isn't an unpleasant read at all. I doubt anyone would use it for doctrinal purposes or even an EDC but it is entertaining nonetheless.
From what I've learned of it, it is not a paraphrase. And biased against true Christian doctrine. Should be moved to the fiction section with the Passion translation.
Wow, some people are taking things way too far..
This was an informative video. Well handled Tim. Just to add a comment and my take... Calling it a paraphrase is really doing it a favour. If you have to augment definitions of terms to eke out a defence of calling it a translation you're clutching at straws. We already have such great tools such as the Amplified which uses the KJV as a foundation which is much safer as it is referencing a trusted foundation. Is The Message a useful tool? Sure, but calling it a translation would tend to give it a foundational element and indicate that it can be read on it's own and I certainly couldn't recommend anyone to use this as their bible/"translation".
Nice video Tim I like message
Tim, I think I need to correct you in the statement of what a translation is because I think there is a confusion with the word translation .The word translation by itself simply means an interpretation. A translation does not mean something literal or word for word. As many people tend to believe. The concept of a translation is simply conveying thoughts, ideas and expression from one target language to another language and guess what ? all you are doing is automatically interpreting a text you are putting meaning from one language to another. In other words it’s a version of the text you are putting out. And even if you try to do a word for word,it’s still an interpretation. It’s a version. So as to the the message bible, it is a translation, but a contemporary modern paraphrase translation or version. So you are right it is a translation or a version of the Bible. All English Bibles are typically a version.
Romans 15:13 Message
Oh! May the God of green hope fill you up with joy, fill you up with peace, so that your believing lives, filled with the life-giving energy of the Holy Spirit, will brim over with hope!
The God of green hope…..
Why? It’s so wrong.
So, I went to the Bible app and compared the ESV and MSG versions of Romans 12:1-2. I agree that the MSG rendering adds to my understanding but isn't exactly a translation. I can also see why my NLT is nearby on your line graph. After watching your videos, and with a sale on Amazon, I just got an ESV Study Bible in large print. Thanks!
I wasn't familiar with this so I read a few chapters and, it's different. My first take is that it is somewhat imprecise but perhaps more accessible to those that haven't read the Bible for a long time and used to more popular translations. I don't think that I would want to use this.
Bro. Tim, I believe you have just invented what can now be called a paralation or a transaphrase
Let's go!
Do TPT next.
I was given a New Testament version of The Message for my 18th birthday as the full version wasn’t finished yet. I’m not a fan. I think there are better translations out there, but that’s just me.
You should have compared the scriptures where "The Message" deviates the most significantly. It's these areas that call into the question the quality of the entire work. But yeah "technically" a translation. Good video though.
i still stand by what i said before: The Message is a Paraphrase, not a translation.
Yep…it’s both. 👍🥁🙏🏻
Hi Tim great job!!!😅😅😅
Hey, thanks!
Great video Tim! I've always heard to stay away from The Message but i appreciate your research and perspective. i plan to do my homework Professor on Romans😅. I would be interested to hear your perspective on the Passion translation because that one is in the same boat as the Message for me- stay far far away! i would love to hear your thoughts.
It doesn’t matter if they went back to the original source, what matters is what philosophy they use. There is no way I could consider the Message a translation. It is definitely way way on the paraphrase side. The proof of the pudding is in the reading.
I guess we got our Nickels worth.