Two other things: 1. When you mentioned close MVP races, 1979’s NL MVP was a dead tie, and wasn’t mentioned. And 2. Juan Gonzalez’s postseason performance wouldn’t have been why they selected him because it’s not in the regular season.
@@fortynights1513 1. in that case, while it was close, 2nd place wasnt close behind 1st place, because they were the same, no one lost, 2. while the mvp is supposed cto be a regular season award, voters, especially back then would care about playoff performancec
@@smoceany9478 I'll give you the second one because of era. But in the case of the first, technically because there was a tie, it's third that wasn't close, so you could say that I'd argue.
Sorry, but absolutely no one believes A-Rod’s story about being clean in his Mariners days. He only said it happened while he was a Ranger because not only would it be the team no one would remember him being on, but Gonzalez had already been caught using PEDs. In reality, A-Rod had been getting regular doses SINCE HIGH SCHOOL, when he started being mentored by Jose Canseco. So yeah, this MVP didn’t belong to A-Rod; even without knowing what we know now, Griffey deserved it 100%.
The American League stats were higher back then were also facilitated by the DH. See Griffey in the first half of the 1990s hit in between Edgar Martinez and Jay Buhner. In the 2nd half of the 1990s he hit in between Arod and Edgar Martinez. This making it hard to walk Griffey when you have an all star or HOF DH hitting behind you. That’s why Griffey never walked 100 times in a season unlike that other slugger in the NL.
MVP’s often come down to the moment you are in. I’m sure you can find plenty of examples of players who were better than their MVP total would indicate, and plenty who were worse.
@@Tex323 don't give them any ideas. Next thing you know every single baseball focused UA-cam channel will make a video about it just like they've all done with this topic.
Fun Fact about Juan Gonzalez, in 98, he became one of, if not the only players in MLB history to have 100 RBIs before the all star break. Still doesn't mean he should've won MVP over A-Rod (who had only the third 40 HR/40 SB season in history), or my boy Nomar, but still a interesting feat nonetheless.
@Jonathan Nielsen Hitting for power, and with runners in scoring position are important. But in Gonzalez’s case, he wasn’t a good fielder, and the metrics that we use to measure that now didn’t exist when he played, so I’m not sure if the writers would have considered that aspect much. Say what you want about the flaws of the value systems we use now, but under them, a player like Juan Gonzalez wouldn’t be viewed as nearly as valuable as he was (in his case, a good power hitting corner outfielder, but a bad fielder, and who played when the league was hitting well)
I hate WAR it’s such a stupid “stat”. It’s purely subjective and opinionated. Yes they may factor in some real stats to it but you can’t tell me that losing Nolan Arenado for an entire season would only cost a team 7 wins. Or any great player for that matter. Not only do you lose their offensive production and in the case of guys like Arenado defense that can’t be replaced, but you have to also realize their locker room presence and how the hard work and focus they put into film study and batting practice affects the younger guys on the team. Or how a pitcher will pitch to the guy ahead of them in the order. Their leadership that guys like Nolan has. Intangibles are just that and that’s why we use that word. WAR is stupid and no serious sports fan or content creator should do anything but laugh when someone mentions a players WAR
I wouldn’t necessarily take the number of it literally. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Cardinals lose more than eight games without Arenado (7.9 was his total by baseball reference last year), but I would argue that WAR could be useful for comparing players who play the same position because the stat takes your production and compares it to how your peers at the same position did, and that aspect of it is better than the raw number of it in my opinion. If I argued that Arenado was say the best third baseman in baseball last season (which value stats like WAR will lead one to argue), would that be a more logical statement than arguing that the Cardinals lose eight more games without Arenado?
so if the numbers were just inflated more for it youd hate it less? if all the best players are the ones leading in it, it can only be so poor of a stat.
There are reports that A-Rod started PEDS in highschool due to his close relationship with Jose Canseco while still in highschool, but to be fair at this point who knows what the hell happened with A-rod at any point
From No More Fielders' Juan Gonzalez MVP video: In 1996, Juan Gonzalez was only the 5th best player on his own team. Its like if the 2019 MVP went to Michael Brantley.
Brantley was good that year but the fact that a rod didn’t win this mvp is astonishing with those numbers winning the division shouldn’t be what determines who wins
@@jadenfoster7729 JuanGon basically was 5th on his team in WAR despite all the counting stats. His defense in RF was that bad. Rusty Greer had more WAR than him.
Honestly I could make a case He only really lost one he should have one and maybe should have even lost the one he did win. Depends on your perspective of pitchers winning. Clemens was leading in pretty much every single pitching stat. Had the highest ERA+ at 222, and lead majors in IP.
@@drascula3806 huhhhhh???? How? Even if we were to include the dope heads (bonds, sosa) and then add whos next? Mays, aaron, trout…. Griffey is right there with all of them 100000%
The baseball writer's vote at the end of the season. Juan Gon's good playoff series would have had ABSOLUTELY ZERO to do with his MVP win. But you're right that he won it because the Rangers made the playoffs and the Mariners did not. Also, Griffey took some votes away from A-Rod.
This is why the Most Valuable Player award's name should be changed to Player of the Year award. It's the easy way to ensure team sucess plays no part in who receives the votes.
PREFACE: The following is an opinion about the over state of MVP voting, and, more importantly, is in no way is an argument of who should have won the 1996 AL MVP award. If you choose to read this, please remember that. I think where people get into trouble in MVP arguments (which Jolly does a solid point of showing in this video) is that they apply a very specific meaning to the purpose of the award, and I'm unsure if Baseball Writers do the same, meaning they are setting themselves to be angered in certain races. "Most Valuable Player" COULD (and maybe even SHOULD, I honestly don't have an opinion on this) mean "The best player in the league" but even in the wording, it doesn't exactly say that. You tie in to that the fact that JOURNALISTS are who give this award out, and you're simply asking for vagueness. Journalism has two core values: report facts, and tell the untold and unseen stories along with the known ones. Having a group solely made up from them, they are going to do what they naturally do. Look at the facts (see stats) then try to tell the story behind them (and this is where the "valuable" term becomes dangerous). "Value" as a word CAN have a different meaning than "Best" as a word (or else the term "best value" would mean "best best" which it does not) so I am able to see an argument for Baseball Writers looking for a different set of clauses than the average fan does when giving out this award. Is a players value less when surrounded by other amazing players and therefore having someone there to fill their shoes if they weren't there? Are there intangibles that go into the meaning of "value" that cannot be put on paper and measured? Is there context to a team's season that pair with the player's performance to mean something different? All these things CAN be considered when deciding "value" but not really "best". I think this happens, and I think it causes the results of several MVP races that fans find confusing. I try to think of the MVP award as the "story of the year award" not the "best player award" personally. I think the issue here is that people let an award from sportswriters with unclear terminology become the premiere award of the league. I also think we're too far gone to fix that, so I don't see it ever changing, but Baseball being behind the eight ball on an issue is no real shocker. They do it a lot (see: ARod, the later years). I stand by that if you are going into MVP voting season each year expecting the award to be given to the best player....you're gonna be disappointed sometimes.
If Alex wants to complain about not winning the MVP he can look at the Seattle writers. They voted for Griffey AND González over him. They knew him better than any other writers. Alex was never “clean,” and those Seattle writers knew it.
Great video as always . The angle I was expecting (maybe it was mentioned briefly ) was that I think it’s a distinct possibility that the Mariners split the vote . Would be curious how their beat writer voted or anyone who watched a lot of AL west
I’m pretty sure it’s speculated Arod started taking roids in high school. I wish I could link the reference. I went to school with a few guys who juiced too so it wouldn’t surprise me
It's dumb to assume any player missed the train. Imo Griffey jr was on roids, look at his head today it's like a pumpkin. Also rickey Henderson who was on the A's with canseco and mcgwire and stole bases into his 40's. You can't convince me they were clean
He was friends with Canseco before he even got drafted out of high school. I remember Sports Illustrated or some sports magazine talking about them meeting up for "workouts" when A-Rod was barely out of high school.
Back in the day home runs and RBI seemed to be the big glory stats. For me though, Ichiro made me realize how important hits are (not simply clubbed out of the park). And Adam Dunn made me realize how ‘overrated’ home runs can be when you’re not good at anything else.
Stop saying A-Fraud was clean! To be fair to him, I doubt the roids helped his D ........ Fense. Jokes aside, he was a great defender, even if he was cheating.
They vote for MVP before the playoffs. How does one make baseball videos and not know this? I swear it feels like this guy didn’t even start watching baseball til he started this channel
might want to slow the roll on claiming A-Roid was "clean as a whistle" in 1996. there's credible speculation he was using right out of high school, or perhaps even before graduating high school.
I wouldn't assume that ARod was definitely clean in 1996. He may have been, but there are rumors he may have been using PEDs in HS, per his teammates IIRC. Who knows.
I get your premise, but it's based on a fallacy. The MVP award is not the "best player in baseball" award, it is the most valuable player award and as such is not entirely based on statistics, but on the perception of how much value each player gives to his team.
I agree with you. Griffey has always been my favorite player, but a Mariners team without him or A-Rod still doesn't make the playoffs. However, a Rangers team without Juan Gonzalez would not have been in the post-season. Hence he was more valuable that year. Now, if you swap Gonzalez for either Griffey or A-Rod, the Rangers would have been an even better team that year.
Maybe I'm old school, but I was always taught an MVP is also "how much you mean to the team" meaning if you take that person out, where is the team? If you took Kid or Arod out, the team still had the other. But nowadays its all about stats stats stats.
ARoid was never "clean as a whistle" dude had high school teammates come out and say he was on PED's then...that being said I firmly believe well over half of the league was on them so Im not even mad.
I love the coverage of other players within the race, especially on the Mariners who were an interesting team to watch through the 90s win or lose. Just wanted to mention that i watched the Trevor Bauer edit bout his contract in Japan and at about the 4:30-4:40ish mark he shows a bit of your commentary in a depiction of a "baseball media flurry" per se surrounding the contract. Not a big Bauer fan even in the anti-MLB baseball fan sense but I just thought it was a cool moment. Love your vids as always)
It’s like so many seasons the younger guys get overlooked if an older player who hasn’t won one. The elder gets the nod thinking the younger player will eventually win one soon.....That’s all I got😆😆😆😆
ARod was such a cool player back then. excessive PEDs really made him a less talented player imo. he gained power and sacrificed speed, average, arm and glove. I kind of suspect most guys were on something all through the 90s, including the guys who didnt look like they were. I think it just really got out of hand and became undeniable bc a lot of guys juiced to the gills once they saw what was possible as far as HR totals and contracts. this is post strike and if we look at the top 10 of MVP voting their stats are incredible. I find it hard to believe they werent all using something to enhance performance.
Your saying a rod was clean back then when Brady Anderson hit 50 and Juan gone won the mvp 😂😂😂 just because he was 20 doesn’t mean he didn’t. Tons of college guys took them that I know of who went to be huge major leaguers. It wasn’t tested. Shit creatine was given out to us in high school in the 90s. You think the mlb players didn’t know? We did and we were 16 and the internet had just started basically. McGuire said it helped him recover so he could do it day after day not get hurt. Always being on your a game physically. Oh and it helped grow huge muscles.
I have an additional point to add about what you said about Team Success. Not only did the Rangers win the division, but they did so for the first time ever. So it’s not hard to imagine the narrative for why Juan Gonzalez was MVP, as the best player on a historic season for the Rangers.
But he was not the best player on that team. Ivan Rodriguez had a decent year hitting and had the best defensive year in his entire career. Gonzalez was not a good defender. I-Rod was a no doubt top tier Hall of Fame player while Juan Gonzalez is right where he belongs: in the Hall of Very Good
@@thomascourt4935 I watched every single game of that 1996 season and I can absolutely tell you Juan was absolutely the best hitter and player we had. Pudge was very good but not quite at that HOF level just yet, and we had a lot of other good hitters in Will Clark, Dean Palmer, Rusty Greer and even Kevin Elster coming out of nowhere to drive in 99 runs, but Juan was THE man on that team. People today have no idea how good he really was. He is one of only two players in Rangers history (Josh Hamilton being the other) who I felt would put legit FEAR in the pitcher every single time he stepped up to bat.
Oh man I forgot Griffey hit 149 homers that season. Should’ve got waaay more recognition for that. More HRs than RBIs is a tough thing to do. Maybe the only guy in the history of the game
i reduse to believe arod wasn't on roids as a rookie, he was closely associated with jose canseco, and his teammates, if my memory serves, have accused him of using in HS.
There's no way in hell i believe that A-Rod wasn't on roids since before he even hit the majors. I remember back before he got drafted out of highschool, Sports Illustrated or some magazine talking about him going doing "workouts" with Canseco when he was 18. I wasn't an unheard of thing at the time either for a high schooler, especially one looking at being drafted #1 in the draft, to start using roids before they even started in the pros.
Some say he was juicing as early as his junior year of high school, and he likely was as a Mariner. Either way, one thing I will say about 96 A-Rod: It feels like he was a more well rounded hitter than he was in Texas and New York. 36 homers is a solid total, but he also led the league in doubles, was good in the field, and was a better pure hitting threat than later in his career. A-Rod probably was juiced here, but he also might not have been swinging for the fences as often as he did later on.
MAYBE you could say Belle and Anderson could have been more viable candidates. But this was back when, yes, team success mattered for Most VALUABLE player. See when Kirk Gibson won in 1988. And BTW, Juan's phenomenal ALDS performance had no effect on him winning the MVP. Votes for MLB awards (at least back then, maybe it's changed since) were all cast BEFORE the postseason started. And if you want to blame anyone for A-Rod losing, blame the two writers in Seattle because they BOTH voted Griffey as their No. 1 choice. Full disclosure, I have been a Rangers fan since the 1990s - one who will also say A-Rod did NOT deserve the MVP he won with the Rangers in 2003 and was maybe the least deserving candidate.
You're also wrong about Stanton-Votto being the closest vote ever. In 1947, Joe DiMaggio beat out Ted Williams for MVP by ONE vote. If anything, even by your logic that was the worst MVP robbery ever because Williams had a Triple Crown season and lost the award solely because one Boston writer had a personal grudge and left Ted completely off his ballot.
The key word in "MOST VALUABLE PLAYER" is MOST...meaning that of all the players mentioned, and the team constructed around, and team finishing outcome....GONZALEZ is the MVP.🤷
1996, esp in the AL, was the most potent run environment in baseball history (aside from the AL in 1930 and 1936.) 5.3 runs per game. League ERA was 5.00. HR/9 was 1.2... the MLB as a whole shattered the HR record previous broken in 1987 and a total of 17 players hit 40 or more HRs....which is insane.
Gonzalez had better numbers than Griffiey and ARod in 1998. I don't know where you came with this bs. Besides HR and Runs, Gonzalez had better stat line even in SLG despite Griffiey 56 HR. But in hits, doubles, RBI, Avg, OBP, OPS and SLG, Gonzalez was better. You might have a case in 1996, but not with the 1998.
There I was as a young kid thinking my guy Mo had a shot. Lol. His overall numbers were probably better than Juan’s but Griffey and A-Rod were probably the best, if clean
There I was as a young kid thinking my guy Mo had a shot. Lol. His overall numbers were probably better than Juan’s but Griffey and A-Rod were probably the best, if clean
It would be useful to mention that the MVP Award is extremely subjective by design, not just in its evaluation metrics (which basically don't exist) but what it's even attempting to evaluate. In other words, it's not just about WHO is the most valuable player, it's also about WHAT a "most valuable player" is, and different people (including the voters) will answer this question in very different ways. For example, Player A is statistically noticeably better than Player B, but Player B is perceived as a very positive influence in the locker room of an improving team while Player A is seen as a negative influence on a declining team; how will that affect your evaluation? One could go on forever about how flawed the MVP Award system is. Bottom line: Don't take these glorified popularity contests too seriously.
4:19 mark y'all finish talking about his month of August and "he hadn't yet turned 21 years old" BUT he turned 21 the month prior on July 27th...JUST SAYING your information is INCORRECT :)
Excellent video as always Jolly, great work. Love seeing a video about my M's. I find it dumb how much team success has a role in MVP voting, even despite having the ballots collected before the start of the postseason. I'll always wonder what could've been with those 90s Mariners. Ah well. At least now we have a new face of the franchise, one who will restore the name "Rodriguez" to its original hype in Seattle.........
As a Mariners fan, the '96 season as a good mix of excitement and frustration, but A-Rod was one of the most exciting things about it. A few things that are important to know about him falling short of the AL MVP award were, one voter chose to not vote for him, because he thought everyone was talking about Ivan Rodriguez (which Mariner broadcaster Ron Fairly said shouldn't have been allowed to vote) and a couple of Seattle names voted for Griffey instead. Even though A-Rod should've received those votes instead, because of his better overall stats, along with having one of the all-time great breakout seasons, voting Griffey did make some sense, as some of his numbers were career-highs.
97 is acknowledged for hitting the most homers of any team in the steroid era, but 96 was one of the best hitting teams of that generation (either them or the 03 Red Sox).
9:18 MVP ballots are cast before the postseason begins, but results aren't announced until after the World Series, so González's performance in the LDS can't sway the vote.
And I'm here sitting watching this video thinking about how disrespectful is to talk about this and ignore the fact that Manny Ramirez got robbed WAY WORSE than these two guys in 1999 by Iván Rodríguez. Is not even close. Not even going to hit like this time 😂, good video tho. Edit: i did hit like but still not compared with the 99' robbery.
Wow that's crazy, great video. And I will say again WAR shouldn't be used. I'm a huge arod fan, he wasn't mvp. WAR is horrible stat. Mvp was crowned right, it wasn't because of the team success. He did better. Mvp is about how well you hit, not WAR
Here's the catch. Juan Gonzalez claimed the MVP based on one simple fact. The Rangers made the playoffs for the first time in franchise history and beat out the Mariners to win the division. That's why both Griffey nor A-Rod didn't win in 1996.
I’ve always blamed the Mariners bullpen for robbing ARod and/or Griffey of that ‘96 MVP. So many blown saves and games given away. They easily win the AL West with even a replacement level bullpen.
Most of those players’ teams didn’t make the playoffs, and that was a huge criteria for MVP voting. Cleveland did, so maybe Albert Belle should have been, but I think Gonzalez was more integral to the Rangers success.
1) easy to review all this via youtube 27 years later, had to be old enough to watch and understand the games and season when it actually happened to have proper context. Juan Gone was dominant against the Yankees in a high profile WC series. Arod and Griffey were on a losing team and likely cancelled some of each others votes out 2) At that time RBIs and team wins were the most important stat in determining MVP. As you pointed out JG led in both. 3) baseball writers are old school. They dont want to give a kid a big head by giving him MVP too early at 20 unless hes absolute clear cut above the rest. JG had the experience edge.
Juan Gonzales was juiced to the gills, Junior Griffey was the greatest ball player of all time. The MVP is meaningless. Just more MLB politics. As a life long Mariners fan, Alex Rodriguez was always a tool and many of us were happy to see him go. Who did he help after he left?
@@ahogg5960 Yep. The 96 Mariners ultimately had 12 pitchers who pitched for 60 innings or more. Half of them had an ERA north of five including the three who pitched the most, and two of the three who had an ERA under 4.00 were Randy Johnson who was injured in May and lost for most of the rest of the season, and Jamie Moyer who we didn’t get until the 96 trade deadline. Also among the six who had an ERA over five was Matt Wagner who pitched 80 innings over 14 starts and a relief appearance, and had an ERA of 6.86. The lineup was as good as its regarded. In addition to Griffey’s 49 homers (and that’s with a game rained out, and a week off with an injured wrist), and A-Rod’s batting title (.358, the highest he would ever hit I believe), there was Edgar who hit .327, with 52 doubles (including being on pace to hit about 70 in July before a rib injury), Jay Buhner who had a 40 homer season with a .370 on base percentage, Dan Wilson who had 18 homers and 83 runs batted in, Paul Sorrento who homered I believe about 30 times, and Joey Cora was a solid pure hitter at the top of the lineup in addition to his speed. The guys we had in the left field position were decent hitters too (most notably Mark Whiten who had 12 homers after coming here at the trade deadline), and Dave Hollins was also a .300 hitter with about 30 RBI’s after the deadline at third base as well. The lineup was for the most part just as good as the the pitching was an albatross.
He should have said most talented batting line-ups. If I remember correctly Randy Johnson was hurt half that year. If he was healthy all year they probably would have won the division.
Juan Gon hit 47 hrs and 144 RBI in 134 games, thats why. You say he didnt lead in any categories, but had he played ~160 games, he would have. Plus his team went to the playoffs and that is always factored in, fair or not.
Nonsense, both Griffey were in the same team and couldn't get their team to the playoffs. During those times, it mattered if you got your team to the playoffs. We will never know since when he used steroids. Juan Gonzalez earned it fair and square🤷♂️
This video is written through the eyes of someone 30 years later, if your team made the playoffs or not was very important in MVP voting, just like batting and the defensive gold glove award, yes there are exceptions but it played heavily in voting, also saying arod was not looked upon impressive his first half year is untrue he was the number one overall pick and only played a few games in the minors, was a mlb starter as a 18 year old , hit .358😯 as a 19 year old, I had to stop watching this video 3 minutes in
if i had to do a revote i think its easy to give it to Mark McGwire for 1996, and Albert Belle in 1998. Juan Gonzalez was definitely a beast deserving an MVP in his career, but not those years with that competition
As far as we know he was not clean as a whistle, what tf are you talking about? He was juiced up in HS😂 It's incredible that people go by what athletes "admit" when it comes to PEDs. That's not how the world works ffs.
Steroids aside... baseball & baseball players are getting worse and worse. I'm not sure what they're doing but there aren't many players I would pay to see these days. I live in ST Louis and haven't bought tickets in 5 years.
@Julio Moreta there's a documentary on it but I honestly can't remember the name or platform. It was at least a decade ago. As a red sox fan I modeled my ss game and swing after him. He's still one of the best ever. But he used very very young because of the pressure
There is a fatal flaw in your argument. That is regular season awards are voted on before the post season even starts. Cy Young, MVP, ROY are all voted on before a single post season pitch is thrown. So, none of Juan Gon post season stats would have played a role in the decision.
So here my take. yes any player that used roids technically cheated. but the mlb knew and did nothing for years..... so imo dont punish the players NOW for what the mlb allowed then. i point to the astros cheating. imo the entire roster should of been banned for life. along with coaching staff etc. u cant ban an owner but mlb could of fined him heavily. im talking 100s of milllions. and sent that money to people in need. kids etc. do something to help community. instead the mlb did nothing, and in turn many if not all other teams also did their own sign stealing shit. major league sports is a joke. NFL MLB etc i refuse to watch any of them. and i really wish everyone else would turn them off too until the put quality first. but ofc at the end of the day views make money.......... history proves that. just look at the news. feel good stories dont bring views. tv etc. people for whatever fucked up reason want-love drama. nough said goodngiht
Lotta JOKESTERS pointing out Griffey's 149 home runs in 1996 I see.
Two other things:
1. When you mentioned close MVP races, 1979’s NL MVP was a dead tie, and wasn’t mentioned.
And 2. Juan Gonzalez’s postseason performance wouldn’t have been why they selected him because it’s not in the regular season.
@@fortynights1513 1. in that case, while it was close, 2nd place wasnt close behind 1st place, because they were the same, no one lost, 2. while the mvp is supposed cto be a regular season award, voters, especially back then would care about playoff performancec
you got jokes LMAO
@@smoceany9478 I'll give you the second one because of era.
But in the case of the first, technically because there was a tie, it's third that wasn't close, so you could say that I'd argue.
Sorry, but absolutely no one believes A-Rod’s story about being clean in his Mariners days. He only said it happened while he was a Ranger because not only would it be the team no one would remember him being on, but Gonzalez had already been caught using PEDs. In reality, A-Rod had been getting regular doses SINCE HIGH SCHOOL, when he started being mentored by Jose Canseco. So yeah, this MVP didn’t belong to A-Rod; even without knowing what we know now, Griffey deserved it 100%.
The 1990s Mariners continue to be the greatest tragedy in baseball history. Another banger, Jolly.
Their pitching really suck back then except for Big Unit
A better bullpen would have helped
In 96 specifically, Johnson was injured and lost for the year in May.
They had few relievers with ERA’s below 4.50 as well I think.
@@fortynights1513 i remember they had a pitcher named bobby ayala who earned the nickname home run bobby for being so bad
just couldnt stay healthy and keep a solid bullpen
It’s funny seeing how ridiculous 90s offensive numbers were
Steroids were fucking awesome
I know, look at all the high batting averages that year with the power numbers. It’s not like that today.
Shows just how utterly dominant the Big Unit and Pedro were!
But yes, it’s hard to fathom players having those numbers today!
@@jefffinkbonner9551 Maddux too
The American League stats were higher back then were also facilitated by the DH. See Griffey in the first half of the 1990s hit in between Edgar Martinez and Jay Buhner. In the 2nd half of the 1990s he hit in between Arod and Edgar Martinez. This making it hard to walk Griffey when you have an all star or HOF DH hitting behind you. That’s why Griffey never walked 100 times in a season unlike that other slugger in the NL.
Gonzalez has 2 MVPs but Junior only has 1??? Yeah that's a disgrace
MVP’s often come down to the moment you are in.
I’m sure you can find plenty of examples of players who were better than their MVP total would indicate, and plenty who were worse.
Nolan ryan got robbed twice of the Cy Young Award! You don't hear him bitching.
@@Tex323 bro he complains about it constantly
Juan Gon almost came to the Red Sox maybe played in the Minors for them. I was hoping for him to make a comeback 2005 I believe.
@@Tex323 don't give them any ideas. Next thing you know every single baseball focused UA-cam channel will make a video about it just like they've all done with this topic.
I didn't know Griffey hit 149 hrs in '96. He definitely got robbed of the MVP! 😂
& he had more HR (149) than RBI (140)…. This dude was from another planet 😂
I never get tired of watching Griffey swing a bat.
It’s a beautiful sight!
And he still has it!
than watch Gary Sheffield.
JR did have a killer swing though he was great at what kids call barrelling the ball.. he made pitchers look slow
yeah but he had the personality to be entertaining at least in seattle he was just like a regular dude showing up on parks playin fields
5:40 damn 149 home runs
Yea but only 140 RBI
Truly impressive
Going over A-Rods career stats and seeing his 1996 breakout not being mvp is insane. The 90s were wild.
Fun Fact about Juan Gonzalez, in 98, he became one of, if not the only players in MLB history to have 100 RBIs before the all star break. Still doesn't mean he should've won MVP over A-Rod (who had only the third 40 HR/40 SB season in history), or my boy Nomar, but still a interesting feat nonetheless.
@Jonathan Nielsen Hitting for power, and with runners in scoring position are important.
But in Gonzalez’s case, he wasn’t a good fielder, and the metrics that we use to measure that now didn’t exist when he played, so I’m not sure if the writers would have considered that aspect much.
Say what you want about the flaws of the value systems we use now, but under them, a player like Juan Gonzalez wouldn’t be viewed as nearly as valuable as he was (in his case, a good power hitting corner outfielder, but a bad fielder, and who played when the league was hitting well)
In 1998 Gonzalez had a better stat line than Rodriguez and Griffiey.
Juan Gonzalez is the Antawn Jamison/Shareef Abdur-Rahim of baseball, massive empty stats and completely forgettable.
What's ironic is that A-Rod's first MVP was with the last place Rangers.
I hate WAR it’s such a stupid “stat”. It’s purely subjective and opinionated. Yes they may factor in some real stats to it but you can’t tell me that losing Nolan Arenado for an entire season would only cost a team 7 wins. Or any great player for that matter. Not only do you lose their offensive production and in the case of guys like Arenado defense that can’t be replaced, but you have to also realize their locker room presence and how the hard work and focus they put into film study and batting practice affects the younger guys on the team. Or how a pitcher will pitch to the guy ahead of them in the order. Their leadership that guys like Nolan has. Intangibles are just that and that’s why we use that word. WAR is stupid and no serious sports fan or content creator should do anything but laugh when someone mentions a players WAR
I wouldn’t necessarily take the number of it literally.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the Cardinals lose more than eight games without Arenado (7.9 was his total by baseball reference last year), but I would argue that WAR could be useful for comparing players who play the same position because the stat takes your production and compares it to how your peers at the same position did, and that aspect of it is better than the raw number of it in my opinion.
If I argued that Arenado was say the best third baseman in baseball last season (which value stats like WAR will lead one to argue), would that be a more logical statement than arguing that the Cardinals lose eight more games without Arenado?
so if the numbers were just inflated more for it youd hate it less? if all the best players are the ones leading in it, it can only be so poor of a stat.
And in 1995 Albert Belle was snubbed, great video Jolly
💯
All because everyone hated Albert belle and mo Vaughn was liked
Alex Rodriguez is the GOAT 3B/SS. Crazy to think how close the Mariners were to having Arod, Griffey, and Ichiro on the same team
True every other close hitter is OF or 1st
The MVP vote happens right after the regular season and is announced after playoffs
There are reports that A-Rod started PEDS in highschool due to his close relationship with Jose Canseco while still in highschool, but to be fair at this point who knows what the hell happened with A-rod at any point
Exactly! The Miami connection. Canseco even says A-Rod even stole his girlfriend or wife at the time. Can't remember which.
Yeah but there is no way to k ow that for a fact.
100% he was roided from day 1
@@johnsonmark65 exactly. Only the people there or not there truly now for sure
@@pigs6486 the more i learn i lean that way
From No More Fielders' Juan Gonzalez MVP video: In 1996, Juan Gonzalez was only the 5th best player on his own team. Its like if the 2019 MVP went to Michael Brantley.
Yep
Michael Brantley was him that year.
Brantley was good that year but the fact that a rod didn’t win this mvp is astonishing with those numbers winning the division shouldn’t be what determines who wins
@@jadenfoster7729 JuanGon basically was 5th on his team in WAR despite all the counting stats. His defense in RF was that bad. Rusty Greer had more WAR than him.
Is it a case where he drove in a lot of runs, and people viewed that as more important than they do now?
Griffey Jr. should have won at least 3 MVPs. Kind of a crime that he didn't. He was an absolute monster in the 90s.
Honestly I could make a case He only really lost one he should have one and maybe should have even lost the one he did win. Depends on your perspective of pitchers winning. Clemens was leading in pretty much every single pitching stat. Had the highest ERA+ at 222, and lead majors in IP.
@Austin St.Clair yeah Clemens rookie steroid year when he went to Toronto to fade to obscurity until he discovered PEDs.
Griffey is quite possibly the greatest outfielder ever. And i would say the purest swing. Your 1 argument is insane.
@@dabbymcnasty4264 Griffey was an all time great but he doesn’t even sniff the discussion of greatest outfielder to ever play the game.
@@drascula3806 huhhhhh???? How? Even if we were to include the dope heads (bonds, sosa) and then add whos next? Mays, aaron, trout…. Griffey is right there with all of them 100000%
There are actually quite a few reports that Arod was on steroids in high school
The baseball writer's vote at the end of the season. Juan Gon's good playoff series would have had ABSOLUTELY ZERO to do with his MVP win. But you're right that he won it because the Rangers made the playoffs and the Mariners did not. Also, Griffey took some votes away from A-Rod.
There are some signs that Alex was juicing in HS. He used to work out with Canseco back then.
This is why the Most Valuable Player award's name should be changed to Player of the Year award. It's the easy way to ensure team sucess plays no part in who receives the votes.
That's why baseball created the Hank Aaron Award to be given to the best position player in each league.
PREFACE: The following is an opinion about the over state of MVP voting, and, more importantly, is in no way is an argument of who should have won the 1996 AL MVP award. If you choose to read this, please remember that.
I think where people get into trouble in MVP arguments (which Jolly does a solid point of showing in this video) is that they apply a very specific meaning to the purpose of the award, and I'm unsure if Baseball Writers do the same, meaning they are setting themselves to be angered in certain races. "Most Valuable Player" COULD (and maybe even SHOULD, I honestly don't have an opinion on this) mean "The best player in the league" but even in the wording, it doesn't exactly say that. You tie in to that the fact that JOURNALISTS are who give this award out, and you're simply asking for vagueness. Journalism has two core values: report facts, and tell the untold and unseen stories along with the known ones. Having a group solely made up from them, they are going to do what they naturally do. Look at the facts (see stats) then try to tell the story behind them (and this is where the "valuable" term becomes dangerous). "Value" as a word CAN have a different meaning than "Best" as a word (or else the term "best value" would mean "best best" which it does not) so I am able to see an argument for Baseball Writers looking for a different set of clauses than the average fan does when giving out this award. Is a players value less when surrounded by other amazing players and therefore having someone there to fill their shoes if they weren't there? Are there intangibles that go into the meaning of "value" that cannot be put on paper and measured? Is there context to a team's season that pair with the player's performance to mean something different? All these things CAN be considered when deciding "value" but not really "best". I think this happens, and I think it causes the results of several MVP races that fans find confusing. I try to think of the MVP award as the "story of the year award" not the "best player award" personally.
I think the issue here is that people let an award from sportswriters with unclear terminology become the premiere award of the league. I also think we're too far gone to fix that, so I don't see it ever changing, but Baseball being behind the eight ball on an issue is no real shocker. They do it a lot (see: ARod, the later years). I stand by that if you are going into MVP voting season each year expecting the award to be given to the best player....you're gonna be disappointed sometimes.
A rod was not clean back then… he was shooting roids in highschool
If Alex wants to complain about not winning the MVP he can look at the Seattle writers. They voted for Griffey AND González over him. They knew him better than any other writers. Alex was never “clean,” and those Seattle writers knew it.
And you think Griffey Jr was clean? Stop it
@@jdeleon5816 Why do you think he wasn't?
@@jdeleon5816Never proven he wasn’t clean. Innocent until proven guilty
@@jdeleon5816 he was lol
@@jdeleon5816 there's as much evidence of Junior using as Martha Stewart. _you_ stop it
Great video as always . The angle I was expecting (maybe it was mentioned briefly ) was that I think it’s a distinct possibility that the Mariners split the vote . Would be curious how their beat writer voted or anyone who watched a lot of AL west
Both beat writers in Seattle who had ballots cast their first place votes for Griffey.
I’m pretty sure it’s speculated Arod started taking roids in high school. I wish I could link the reference. I went to school with a few guys who juiced too so it wouldn’t surprise me
Ive heard so much about this over the years. I agree bro
Yeah I think Canseco has said it. I guess he knew A Rod, when A Rod was in high school or something, I forget.
It’s very probable that A-Rod was juiced in 96, but either way 36 homers in 1996 is a good total but far from Texas and earlier New York for him.
It's dumb to assume any player missed the train. Imo Griffey jr was on roids, look at his head today it's like a pumpkin. Also rickey Henderson who was on the A's with canseco and mcgwire and stole bases into his 40's. You can't convince me they were clean
He was friends with Canseco before he even got drafted out of high school. I remember Sports Illustrated or some sports magazine talking about them meeting up for "workouts" when A-Rod was barely out of high school.
Biggest take away here is that you don’t drink milk Jolly?
Back in the day home runs and RBI seemed to be the big glory stats.
For me though, Ichiro made me realize how important hits are (not simply clubbed out of the park). And Adam Dunn made me realize how ‘overrated’ home runs can be when you’re not good at anything else.
Adam Dunn, or as Jon Bois has said: “the guy who puts infielders out of work”
Ever heard of Wade Boggs and Pete Rose?
Stop saying A-Fraud was clean!
To be fair to him, I doubt the roids helped his D ........ Fense. Jokes aside, he was a great defender, even if he was cheating.
They vote for MVP before the playoffs. How does one make baseball videos and not know this? I swear it feels like this guy didn’t even start watching baseball til he started this channel
What year did they make the change to voting for MVP before the playoffs started?
might want to slow the roll on claiming A-Roid was "clean as a whistle" in 1996. there's credible speculation he was using right out of high school, or perhaps even before graduating high school.
I wouldn't assume that ARod was definitely clean in 1996. He may have been, but there are rumors he may have been using PEDs in HS, per his teammates IIRC. Who knows.
I get your premise, but it's based on a fallacy. The MVP award is not the "best player in baseball" award, it is the most valuable player award and as such is not entirely based on statistics, but on the perception of how much value each player gives to his team.
I agree with you. Griffey has always been my favorite player, but a Mariners team without him or A-Rod still doesn't make the playoffs. However, a Rangers team without Juan Gonzalez would not have been in the post-season. Hence he was more valuable that year.
Now, if you swap Gonzalez for either Griffey or A-Rod, the Rangers would have been an even better team that year.
Maybe I'm old school, but I was always taught an MVP is also "how much you mean to the team" meaning if you take that person out, where is the team? If you took Kid or Arod out, the team still had the other. But nowadays its all about stats stats stats.
ARoid was never "clean as a whistle" dude had high school teammates come out and say he was on PED's then...that being said I firmly believe well over half of the league was on them so Im not even mad.
As an O’s fan I would’ve loved for Brady to win the MVP that year but A-Rod and Griff were definitely worthy! Thanks Jolly!
Same
Hahahaha he’s a joke. More HR in 1 year than his whole career combined
As a Seattle fan, I recall being irate when this went down. Your video and the stats within only reinforces my feelings from almost 30 years ago.
I love the coverage of other players within the race, especially on the Mariners who were an interesting team to watch through the 90s win or lose.
Just wanted to mention that i watched the Trevor Bauer edit bout his contract in Japan and at about the 4:30-4:40ish mark he shows a bit of your commentary in a depiction of a "baseball media flurry" per se surrounding the contract. Not a big Bauer fan even in the anti-MLB baseball fan sense but I just thought it was a cool moment. Love your vids as always)
There is proof that A-Rod was on juice from the time he was in high school. So let’s not act like he was clean with Seattle.
Award voting takes place before the postseason.
Why does this look exactly like the No More Fielders video
Probably two different UA-cam channels that had a similar opinion on this.
Just pause it at 1:04 and let it sink in. "Juan Gone" Gonzalez's team made the playoffs while a-rod and Jr. Griffey did not... but they were the MVPs?
Seattle had worse pitching. Obviously that's Arod and Griffey's fault, right?
It’s like so many seasons the younger guys get overlooked if an older player who hasn’t won one. The elder gets the nod thinking the younger player will eventually win one soon.....That’s all I got😆😆😆😆
Appreciate you highlighting this Jolly! To this day Mariners players are still snubbed and overlooked.
A-Rod took roids in high school
2nd hand info, Arod was juicing well before this. Literally a bat boy saw him doing it in the M's clubhouse in 1995...
ARod was such a cool player back then. excessive PEDs really made him a less talented player imo. he gained power and sacrificed speed, average, arm and glove. I kind of suspect most guys were on something all through the 90s, including the guys who didnt look like they were. I think it just really got out of hand and became undeniable bc a lot of guys juiced to the gills once they saw what was possible as far as HR totals and contracts. this is post strike and if we look at the top 10 of MVP voting their stats are incredible. I find it hard to believe they werent all using something to enhance performance.
@Bread And Circuses Even if he was on steroids at that point, his game certainly was more well rounded than later on
Your saying a rod was clean back then when Brady Anderson hit 50 and Juan gone won the mvp 😂😂😂 just because he was 20 doesn’t mean he didn’t. Tons of college guys took them that I know of who went to be huge major leaguers. It wasn’t tested. Shit creatine was given out to us in high school in the 90s. You think the mlb players didn’t know? We did and we were 16 and the internet had just started basically. McGuire said it helped him recover so he could do it day after day not get hurt. Always being on your a game physically. Oh and it helped grow huge muscles.
Saying A-Rod was clean as a whistle is naive
lol ARod was doing roids in high school, bro.
I have an additional point to add about what you said about Team Success. Not only did the Rangers win the division, but they did so for the first time ever. So it’s not hard to imagine the narrative for why Juan Gonzalez was MVP, as the best player on a historic season for the Rangers.
But he was not the best player on that team. Ivan Rodriguez had a decent year hitting and had the best defensive year in his entire career. Gonzalez was not a good defender. I-Rod was a no doubt top tier Hall of Fame player while Juan Gonzalez is right where he belongs: in the Hall of Very Good
@@thomascourt4935 what the hell does whether they were no doubt HOFers have to do with whether one of them deserved the mvp in 96.
I agree with this. Not to mention Griffey and Rodriguez were on the same team. The stole votes from each other.
@@thomascourt4935 Juan’s defense didn’t hurt the team. He was definitely the most important member of that team.
@@thomascourt4935 I watched every single game of that 1996 season and I can absolutely tell you Juan was absolutely the best hitter and player we had. Pudge was very good but not quite at that HOF level just yet, and we had a lot of other good hitters in Will Clark, Dean Palmer, Rusty Greer and even Kevin Elster coming out of nowhere to drive in 99 runs, but Juan was THE man on that team. People today have no idea how good he really was. He is one of only two players in Rangers history (Josh Hamilton being the other) who I felt would put legit FEAR in the pitcher every single time he stepped up to bat.
Great video. Would love to see something about Mike Hampton's silver sluggers, dude could hit
You mean the votes weren't cast at the end of the regular season? Find that extremely hard to believe
They were. Sorry, but there are a LOT of flaws in this video.
@rowdycmoore all votes for all MLB regular season are turned in before post-season starts
@@cjrrun Correct.
Oh man I forgot Griffey hit 149 homers that season. Should’ve got waaay more recognition for that. More HRs than RBIs is a tough thing to do. Maybe the only guy in the history of the game
i reduse to believe arod wasn't on roids as a rookie, he was closely associated with jose canseco, and his teammates, if my memory serves, have accused him of using in HS.
wrong Arod used steroids since high school
Apparently ARod actually began doing steroids in high school, so not not 100% sure he was clean
A-Rod was doing steroids since HS
There's no way in hell i believe that A-Rod wasn't on roids since before he even hit the majors. I remember back before he got drafted out of highschool, Sports Illustrated or some magazine talking about him going doing "workouts" with Canseco when he was 18. I wasn't an unheard of thing at the time either for a high schooler, especially one looking at being drafted #1 in the draft, to start using roids before they even started in the pros.
Guaranteed
Some say he was juicing as early as his junior year of high school, and he likely was as a Mariner.
Either way, one thing I will say about 96 A-Rod:
It feels like he was a more well rounded hitter than he was in Texas and New York.
36 homers is a solid total, but he also led the league in doubles, was good in the field, and was a better pure hitting threat than later in his career.
A-Rod probably was juiced here, but he also might not have been swinging for the fences as often as he did later on.
A-Rod was A-Rod before he even made the majors. I think he was a high school kid when he was last just "alex"
If Nomar had just never been hit on the wrist and broke it, man that dude was sweet
Was a very good player through about 2003, but after his second injury didn’t do much more.
Great video sub
MAYBE you could say Belle and Anderson could have been more viable candidates. But this was back when, yes, team success mattered for Most VALUABLE player. See when Kirk Gibson won in 1988.
And BTW, Juan's phenomenal ALDS performance had no effect on him winning the MVP. Votes for MLB awards (at least back then, maybe it's changed since) were all cast BEFORE the postseason started. And if you want to blame anyone for A-Rod losing, blame the two writers in Seattle because they BOTH voted Griffey as their No. 1 choice.
Full disclosure, I have been a Rangers fan since the 1990s - one who will also say A-Rod did NOT deserve the MVP he won with the Rangers in 2003 and was maybe the least deserving candidate.
You're also wrong about Stanton-Votto being the closest vote ever. In 1947, Joe DiMaggio beat out Ted Williams for MVP by ONE vote. If anything, even by your logic that was the worst MVP robbery ever because Williams had a Triple Crown season and lost the award solely because one Boston writer had a personal grudge and left Ted completely off his ballot.
Thank you for a Mariners video!
Are we sure ARod was clean? I’ve heard he was juicing in high school lol
Stop the nonsense Juan Gonzalez deserved both of the MVP's, period.
It's been said that Arod was on something since his high-school days.
The key word in "MOST VALUABLE PLAYER" is MOST...meaning that of all the players mentioned, and the team constructed around, and team finishing outcome....GONZALEZ is the MVP.🤷
1996, esp in the AL, was the most potent run environment in baseball history (aside from the AL in 1930 and 1936.) 5.3 runs per game. League ERA was 5.00. HR/9 was 1.2...
the MLB as a whole shattered the HR record previous broken in 1987 and a total of 17 players hit 40 or more HRs....which is insane.
Gonzalez had better numbers than Griffiey and ARod in 1998. I don't know where you came with this bs. Besides HR and Runs, Gonzalez had better stat line even in SLG despite Griffiey 56 HR. But in hits, doubles, RBI, Avg, OBP, OPS and SLG, Gonzalez was better. You might have a case in 1996, but not with the 1998.
There I was as a young kid thinking my guy Mo had a shot. Lol. His overall numbers were probably better than Juan’s but Griffey and A-Rod were probably the best, if clean
There I was as a young kid thinking my guy Mo had a shot. Lol. His overall numbers were probably better than Juan’s but Griffey and A-Rod were probably the best, if clean
It would be useful to mention that the MVP Award is extremely subjective by design, not just in its evaluation metrics (which basically don't exist) but what it's even attempting to evaluate. In other words, it's not just about WHO is the most valuable player, it's also about WHAT a "most valuable player" is, and different people (including the voters) will answer this question in very different ways. For example, Player A is statistically noticeably better than Player B, but Player B is perceived as a very positive influence in the locker room of an improving team while Player A is seen as a negative influence on a declining team; how will that affect your evaluation?
One could go on forever about how flawed the MVP Award system is. Bottom line: Don't take these glorified popularity contests too seriously.
4:19 mark y'all finish talking about his month of August and "he hadn't yet turned 21 years old" BUT he turned 21 the month prior on July 27th...JUST SAYING your information is INCORRECT :)
Excellent video as always Jolly, great work. Love seeing a video about my M's. I find it dumb how much team success has a role in MVP voting, even despite having the ballots collected before the start of the postseason. I'll always wonder what could've been with those 90s Mariners. Ah well.
At least now we have a new face of the franchise, one who will restore the name "Rodriguez" to its original hype in Seattle.........
If they had better pitching in the lower rotation and bullpen, then the 90’s Mariners could have made it closer to their potential.
As a Mariners fan, the '96 season as a good mix of excitement and frustration, but A-Rod was one of the most exciting things about it. A few things that are important to know about him falling short of the AL MVP award were, one voter chose to not vote for him, because he thought everyone was talking about Ivan Rodriguez (which Mariner broadcaster Ron Fairly said shouldn't have been allowed to vote) and a couple of Seattle names voted for Griffey instead. Even though A-Rod should've received those votes instead, because of his better overall stats, along with having one of the all-time great breakout seasons, voting Griffey did make some sense, as some of his numbers were career-highs.
97 is acknowledged for hitting the most homers of any team in the steroid era, but 96 was one of the best hitting teams of that generation (either them or the 03 Red Sox).
9:18 MVP ballots are cast before the postseason begins, but results aren't announced until after the World Series, so González's performance in the LDS can't sway the vote.
And I'm here sitting watching this video thinking about how disrespectful is to talk about this and ignore the fact that Manny Ramirez got robbed WAY WORSE than these two guys in 1999 by Iván Rodríguez.
Is not even close. Not even going to hit like this time 😂, good video tho.
Edit: i did hit like but still not compared with the 99' robbery.
Wow that's crazy, great video. And I will say again WAR shouldn't be used. I'm a huge arod fan, he wasn't mvp. WAR is horrible stat. Mvp was crowned right, it wasn't because of the team success. He did better. Mvp is about how well you hit, not WAR
Here's the catch. Juan Gonzalez claimed the MVP based on one simple fact. The Rangers made the playoffs for the first time in franchise history and beat out the Mariners to win the division. That's why both Griffey nor A-Rod didn't win in 1996.
I’ve always blamed the Mariners bullpen for robbing ARod and/or Griffey of that ‘96 MVP. So many blown saves and games given away. They easily win the AL West with even a replacement level bullpen.
Most of those players’ teams didn’t make the playoffs, and that was a huge criteria for MVP voting.
Cleveland did, so maybe Albert Belle should have been, but I think Gonzalez was more integral to the Rangers success.
1) easy to review all this via youtube 27 years later, had to be old enough to watch and understand the games and season when it actually happened to have proper context. Juan Gone was dominant against the Yankees in a high profile WC series. Arod and Griffey were on a losing team and likely cancelled some of each others votes out
2) At that time RBIs and team wins were the most important stat in determining MVP. As you pointed out JG led in both.
3) baseball writers are old school. They dont want to give a kid a big head by giving him MVP too early at 20 unless hes absolute clear cut above the rest. JG had the experience edge.
Juan Gonzales was juiced to the gills, Junior Griffey was the greatest ball player of all time. The MVP is meaningless. Just more MLB politics. As a life long Mariners fan, Alex Rodriguez was always a tool and many of us were happy to see him go. Who did he help after he left?
Jolly Olive, you should really make a video on Dave Parker! He is really underrated and my favorite player in sports history!
Pirates and Reds right?
@@fortynights1513 Yup
Also the A's great player. Great hitter
@@mattamick1163 💯
@Rodney Damon Absolutely not, but a certain level of overlooked I could see.
"One of the most talented rosters in baseball history despite missing out on the playoffs entirely" is the most Mariners sentence possible
One of the most talented lineups, as opposed to overall rosters arguably.
@@fortynights1513 True that. Great hitting, but outside of Randy Johnson, not great starting pitching and a rubbish bullpen
@@ahogg5960 Yep.
The 96 Mariners ultimately had 12 pitchers who pitched for 60 innings or more. Half of them had an ERA north of five including the three who pitched the most, and two of the three who had an ERA under 4.00 were Randy Johnson who was injured in May and lost for most of the rest of the season, and Jamie Moyer who we didn’t get until the 96 trade deadline.
Also among the six who had an ERA over five was Matt Wagner who pitched 80 innings over 14 starts and a relief appearance, and had an ERA of 6.86.
The lineup was as good as its regarded.
In addition to Griffey’s 49 homers (and that’s with a game rained out, and a week off with an injured wrist), and A-Rod’s batting title (.358, the highest he would ever hit I believe), there was Edgar who hit .327, with 52 doubles (including being on pace to hit about 70 in July before a rib injury), Jay Buhner who had a 40 homer season with a .370 on base percentage, Dan Wilson who had 18 homers and 83 runs batted in, Paul Sorrento who homered I believe about 30 times, and Joey Cora was a solid pure hitter at the top of the lineup in addition to his speed.
The guys we had in the left field position were decent hitters too (most notably Mark Whiten who had 12 homers after coming here at the trade deadline), and Dave Hollins was also a .300 hitter with about 30 RBI’s after the deadline at third base as well.
The lineup was for the most part just as good as the the pitching was an albatross.
He should have said most talented batting line-ups. If I remember correctly Randy Johnson was hurt half that year. If he was healthy all year they probably would have won the division.
@@ahogg5960 Now I'm going to have Bobby Ayala nightmares lol.
Juan Gon hit 47 hrs and 144 RBI in 134 games, thats why. You say he didnt lead in any categories, but had he played ~160 games, he would have. Plus his team went to the playoffs and that is always factored in, fair or not.
Nonsense, both Griffey were in the same team and couldn't get their team to the playoffs. During those times, it mattered if you got your team to the playoffs. We will never know since when he used steroids. Juan Gonzalez earned it fair and square🤷♂️
This video is written through the eyes of someone 30 years later, if your team made the playoffs or not was very important in MVP voting, just like batting and the defensive gold glove award, yes there are exceptions but it played heavily in voting, also saying arod was not looked upon impressive his first half year is untrue he was the number one overall pick and only played a few games in the minors, was a mlb starter as a 18 year old , hit .358😯 as a 19 year old, I had to stop watching this video 3 minutes in
if i had to do a revote i think its easy to give it to Mark McGwire for 1996, and Albert Belle in 1998. Juan Gonzalez was definitely a beast deserving an MVP in his career, but not those years with that competition
As far as we know he was not clean as a whistle, what tf are you talking about? He was juiced up in HS😂 It's incredible that people go by what athletes "admit" when it comes to PEDs. That's not how the world works ffs.
Steroids aside... baseball & baseball players are getting worse and worse.
I'm not sure what they're doing but there aren't many players I would pay to see these days. I live in ST Louis and haven't bought tickets in 5 years.
Turned the video off when you said Arod was clean as a whistle lol do your research bud. He was on roids starting at 16
There is no way we can know that for a fact, is easy to say now. He was skinny af so i dont think he was using yet
@@johnsonmark65 his teammates literally said they were injecting roids in his ass cheeks. Bro please....
@Julio Moreta there's a documentary on it but I honestly can't remember the name or platform. It was at least a decade ago. As a red sox fan I modeled my ss game and swing after him. He's still one of the best ever. But he used very very young because of the pressure
@@CCL0286 the documentary you are talking about is called screwball lol and that's about buogenesis
There is a fatal flaw in your argument. That is regular season awards are voted on before the post season even starts. Cy Young, MVP, ROY are all voted on before a single post season pitch is thrown.
So, none of Juan Gon post season stats would have played a role in the decision.
So here my take. yes any player that used roids technically cheated.
but the mlb knew and did nothing for years..... so imo dont punish the players NOW for what the mlb allowed then.
i point to the astros cheating. imo the entire roster should of been banned for life. along with coaching staff etc. u cant ban an owner but mlb could of fined him heavily. im talking 100s of milllions. and sent that money to people in need. kids etc. do something to help community.
instead the mlb did nothing, and in turn many if not all other teams also did their own sign stealing shit.
major league sports is a joke. NFL MLB etc i refuse to watch any of them. and i really wish everyone else would turn them off too until the put quality first. but ofc at the end of the day views make money..........
history proves that. just look at the news. feel good stories dont bring views. tv etc. people for whatever fucked up reason want-love drama. nough said goodngiht
He's was A-Rod in Seattle, ESPN and thus the nation still called him Alex
Yeah but, A-Rod and Jr had each other to RBI off of, Gonzalez did it with the RANGERS. A-Rod also got his revenge on the Rangers monetarily.