It's Time For Pump It Up To Move Past Combo Based Scoring
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- Опубліковано 22 лип 2024
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Link to the Pump It Up Scoring Forumula: pumpout2.anyhowstep.com:17593...
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5:04 alone is enough to convince me that the PIU scoring system is flawed
People turn a blind eye to this example all the time. If it is ever discussed, defenders will argue the S bonus is what did it. Why should that player have an S bonus when they broke combo in 2 separate areas? Player 1 broke combo with a dropped hold (2 misses were literally back to back). Player 1 even had a much higher combo and overall performed much more accurately, yet they lost. How in the world can anyone justify this scenario or a scoring system that allows this to ever happen? It's ludicrous.
@@happyf333tz Because they broke combo with bads, not misses. They didn't missed arrows totally, just barely. I'm suppose that's quite obviously from the description of S grade.
Dinozavrr Bad’s can be from poor foot placement or even worse, mashing and hoping you dodge misses from stomping around. This is a huge problem with the grade bonus and is heavily abused (the 2nd point).
@@Dinozavrr I can understand what you're talking about, not miss a single arrow is a good point. But, come on, -52 perfect (+48 great and +4 good) can't justify the win for the player 2, even if you consider -273 combo.
Give him a bonus for "no miss" but he should have been lost compared to player 1. Combo and "no miss" system is really flawed. The most important thing for a score should be the timing (perfect, great...) and, in a really low percentage, the combo and "no miss". They should be used just to give the victory for few points when two players are close each other but did different break/combo. Not give bonus that can vanify the entire efforts on timing.
This is absolutely nosense.
Ps: Even kcal system said who putted more efforts and deserve the win...lol
@@KysartSarglin yeah lol even kcal said p1 had 67k and p2 just 66k
It was the first time I knew that there was a minus score
If you are curious about scoring system recommend you to see
Here is the full article he uses in the video. I wrote it based on Brazilian hackers analysis of PIU game hdd data and HK_PIVTS data from battle mode.
pumpout2.anyhowstep.com:17593/article/pump-it-up-scoring
@@HaruKazePIU Very detailed and well written.. 👍
There's lots Andamiro could work on. Scoring system, downscroll issues, and website layout/content would be the main ones I'd like to see addressed.
Jacob Pauls keep VJ letter grades that appear above the difficulty while scrolling through ghe game SEPARATE from NJ scores!!!
At this point there should be a list made to be honest. I would love to use VJ timing without break on - an interesting way to do that would be that if the stage breaks, the VJ bonus multiplier wouldn't be applied.
RIP Downscroll, barely supported and unacceptable in most competitive events. I hardly play competitively because of this
>Bad decreases the score
This is the first time I've ever heard of this. I figured Miss would have some kind of penalty but not Bad. And there's a lot more stuff regarding Pump scoring that I didn't know (like the level of the chart actually affects your score multiplier).
Yes, I agree Pump should implements EX Scoring kinda thing. Not as the only scoring system implemented but as a side scoring system where you can convert the results into two different scoring system. That way you can see the score in two different perspective (combo-based and accuracy-based).
SM-MEGAtive enable EX for events and disable for regular mode if anything. I’d take this over no change honestly.
The bigger issue is lifebar depletion and combo breaking here.
Very informative video. As somebody who's trying to break into the competitive scene for pump, this really shines a light on what to expect and what to hope for in the future. I appreciate this content, my man.
Much love
imo, the best scoring system ever for competitive, and even for casual, Beatmania IIDX Scoring system (based on points/ex score/acurracy/clear), great video dude!
IIDX money score still factors in combo, to a very slight extent, but not to the same level as PIU or older DDR mixes
@@TarenNauxen But money score doesnt really matter past 6th Style, and nobody cares about it.
The only place where money score still matters is original BM/BMIII since iirc they never got EX-SCORE
@@whatisfzeroanymore2nd Very true- IIDX money score isn't hasn't even been displayed on result screens for years despite being shown during play. (We won't talk about Beatmania USA though) It's a useful example for the sake of this video though.
Honestly I like to reward consistency, but pump's method of rewarding combo is quite stupid. It does make no sense that two 1-miss runs can be different, if one of them doesnt get the 50-combo range for the bonus.
There's an independent scoring system that people used for across-versions competition which only regarded the max combo for a bonus (since it's the only combo stat on the results screen). I feel like if it was a mix of precision + top one or two best combos weighed, it would be healthier.
The S bonus is kinda trash since the reward for non-full combo spamming bads makes no sense at all.
Ayo, the new pump trailer for PIU Phoenix says that there will be a max score cap at 1mil. Seems like they adjusted the scoring which is super cool
My key issue with combo based scoring is that it punishes the player for missing in the middle of the chart more than at the start or end. Or a few evenly distributed mistakes.
For example in Groove Coaster, there is a Chain Bonus determined by your maximum chain through the song. Miss a bunch near the start or the end and you only lose maybe a couple thousand out of 100k maximum Chain Bonus, but make three evenly distributed misses and it chops the chain bonus down by 75%.
It's also worth noting that combo scoring pops up more in games with lower skill ceilings that are designed with a less hardcore audience in mind, whereas games like IIDX and DDR that have a rep for being super hard at the highest levels use the much less frustrating EX scoring. I suppose the intent behind the former set of games is to make the player feel satisfied for maintaining a longer combo, but having EX scoring as a "power user" option / "cheat" code at the least would be nice, much like what Taiko started doing in later games with Shin-Uchi scoring, and Cytus with its TP system that exists alongside the standard combo-based out-of-1M scoring.
so basicly change the scoring system to pump it up m without the perfect raibow and still shows the max combo in case a tie happens
EX scoring only focuses on accuracy alone, but consistency is also really important, which combo based scoring helps with. A good scoring system should take both into consideration, and EX score can be a starting base. There are a few ways you could incorporate this:
- Weight more difficult patterns (awkward/tough patterns weighted higher but multiplied by a coefficient of speed/arrow density, exponentially rewarding more points)
- This is a time consuming process but it is possible because there are certain thresholds for speed for certain patterns where it is possible to bracket things or cheese them.
- Make misses (or non-perfects?) exponentially remove more points the more times you miss.
Pump has very loose timing windows so accuracy shouldn't matter as much as execution for high level charts. Playing VJ on less difficult charts is a whole other way to play though, and accuracy is more important in that case. It's too diverse to just simplify the problem and provide one solution that focuses only one side. The only advantage to EX score is that it doesn't have to be calculated in real time. A better proposition for Pump as a game would be to display the score in real time like DDR (in the corner perhaps, definitely somewhere where it doesn't tempt the player themselves).
Also grade bonus sucks
I've always wondered why my score had varied so wildly while I had about the same number of misses on songs. Thanks for shedding light on this. I would also welcome the ex scoring system because then I could actually track my progress in a more accurate way rather than just x misses. I'm only able to do 16s and 17s, along with 2 18s right now, but I hope to eventually get up to 20s singles.
You mention a lot of great points. Hopefully Andamiro will listen. Great video!
I never knew how the scoring worked for this game but thanks for clarifying that!
Andamiro implemented EX scoring in the past in Pump It Up Pro and Pro 2 - it didn't fly well. I think the best solution would be a mixed scoring system that gives a bit more value to the accuracy but leaves the combo in the spotlight as well. Combo value in the competitive scene means that you have to strategize where can you afford a miss and where you should invest all your energy in order to beat the opponent, and it's a big difference from DDR and ITG. I personally moved to Pump because I didn't enjoy the EX scoring on ITG. While the PIU scoring system has a lot of flaws (like bonuses and some multipliers), and they should be addressed, the combo-based system itself is one of the core parts that make Pump stand out, and requires a set of skills different from the EX games.
so the only solution is revamp or recalibrate the "PIU scoring system" since EX were harder on most PIU Song but "PIU Scoring System" is had some exploit,make anything complicated,too much punish players who had big acuracy so we ned to recalibrate it to make it like EX but had combo multipliers apply(Without Brackets Multiplier or Lvl Multiplier)or no combo multipier but had brackets and Lvl Multipier or just Brakets is multipied
I feel like if they just removed the "51+ combo" bonus and rework it into a "X amount of notes per measure" bonus, I feel like this would solve these problems. It'd also fix the rolling bracket calculations issues. Ofc there'd be a cap on it to ensure we don't exceed billions of money score too
idk why I just saw this, but this video is really pog nice job seth
The problem with not relying on combo scoring is that it doesn't reward consistency, which is a very important part of this game, given the way the charts are made for. Let's compare DDR to PIU, for example. DDR doesn't have much room for creative playing because of its strict timing window and the disposition of the arrows in the pad, so you can barely think of bracketing some corner jumps or double tapping 8ths. PIU timing window is way more permissive (VJ is pretty close to DDR timing, I'm not getting into that), allowing you to effectively bracket the rolling brackets you mention, double tapping 16ths or smallers can work, bracketing 17s and 39s is possible due to arrow placement, and of course, chair play, which is something I personally find very exploitable. Also, I've been checking the score systems for every DDR version and, while I'm not going to read everything because the score systems have changed a lot and some are too complex, I find it interesting that most versions give you more points the closer you are to the end of the chart, which makes sense taking chart complexity and stamina into the equation. I remember this one VS match I had years ago in DDR Extreme, we were playing Stoic ESP and we got nearly the same score, despite the fact that he got 4 greats against my 24 ones. The good part is that DDR includes a score display while you're playing, so in case you happen to record your match or just have enough concentration to watch it as you play, you can see how you're playing in every stage of the chart, so yes, my Greats were earlier on the song. I find it hard to be partial to another scoring system. I mean, I understand the reasoning behind pure EX scoring, and as you yourself said, it's more impressive to see an S than an A, and I think the score system, whichever it ends to be, should be tweaked around to reflect the difference between a Bad and a Miss, something the current DDR EX score system doesn't show - since Boos disappeared.
Combo scoring exists to prevent players from skipping difficult sections of charts, instead rewarding players who maintain a combo throughout them.
In DDR you can just spam for a hard part and not be punished as harshly. in PIU if you try this you will quickly fall behind the more talented player.
Maybe it can be a modified Ex score where everything below greats are penalties? so goods don't give you anything, and bads misses decreases your score considerably.
Maybe a system where more than one good/bad/miss consecutively multiplies the penalty (and makes it very punishing)?. To avoid the spamming.
I still think that just a plain Ex score would not work on PIU, but maybe they can make some modifications to adjust it (?)
What about pad misfires or pad oversensitivity?
Could you tell what is the timing for the judgments? I can't find it anywhere
Watching this in 2024 and after the release of Piu Phoenix.
Andamiro staff watched this video before designing Pump Phoenix.
I KNEW IT! DOUBLE CHARTS GIVE MORE SCORE THAN SINGLES!
it always feel strange to me that for example i play S18 chart with 1000 notes, and i have roughly the same max combo count (say 700) as the D18 chart with also 1000 notes, the double chart's score feels significantly higher for roughly same max combo count.
Just display both scores the same way DDR does. Show money and EX
PIU Phoenix: we got what you wanted 👍
Great video.
I agree with you
visionary
It's quite funny to see how everyone discuss corner cases of comboscoring while not trying to check corner cases of EX scoring, especially in case of PIU charts and judgement. For example, let's have two players playing one chart. First one breaks combo in five distinct places, each time with 1 miss (so with total of 5 misses), and second one breaks combo only one time by missing the hold with 10 misses (or screwing one dense drill with 15 bads, for example). For me it's obvious that second player has higher skill and is a winner despite EX scoring telling the opposite.
With EX scoring, missing dense holds may become a major problem, and I remind that no dance machine with accuracy scoring gives such amount of notes in their holds.
Tbh I'm just here to have fun playing pump it up while getting jelly everytime Happyf33t gets another Triple S's.
8:53
I feel attacked
I felt that so hard lmao
i felt that so hard
percent scoring like pro/pro2/infinity would be sick honestly
I completely agree that the scoring system sucks for tournaments/competitive play, but I want to know if you think the way the lifebar works for stage passes should be changed/tweaked or if it should stay the same?(I personally think lifebar should stay the same for stage passes)
Keep it the same, the lifebar is great.
phoenix arrives ~
The score system if just playing the game I think they should just keep it the same but I do agree with you in a tournament style because EX should be the way for pump if in a tournament. And even if DDR uses EX then why cant they just use the percentage scoring like in piu infinity that would also work out for tournament play as well.
C A Yes, percentage scoring is another great way to do accuracy.
My friend had tried to unlock a chart which requires an S but he got an A with 1 miss at almost end of song, he tried again and got an S with 5 bads and lower score than the previous A and the chart is not unlocked. much of frustration
What is the unlock condition?
hope we get an update video though
make my pump dreams come true Seth
I want to kill that bracket
this video aged well
phoenix introduced a new scoring system
It’s what I fought for for so long and it has finally arrived.
You should have a look at Pump It Up Mobile Edition. It uses a new percentage based scoring system. I'm sure it means Andamiro are definitely considering replacing the old score system with this new one for the next arcade release of Pump. Let's hope so at least!
Also, Rainbow Perfects
Two things. First, the day the scoring system changes, I will spend and entire day replaying ever 19+ chart I can do to celebrate and recalibrate my scores.
And second, I want to try and get a negative score now that I know misses count as such. I've never seen such a thing and now I'm curious.
Erwin Guerra not possible, it does not go below 0 actually!
@@happyf333tz Aww, well that's just being no fun. :(
I agree with maybe the entire video, but imo any score changes should somehow punish the player that intentionally skips a note to maintain acc on a hard pattern and/or reward the player who tries their best to get the entire thing.. Obviously the combo based score already does that, but too harshly, so maybe a mildly hybrid solution between combo scoring and ex is the way to go, idk
Players already skip notes with the current system when viewing the higher end level charts. Players will always approach charts different from one another of course, but this will happen, regardless of what system is in place.
1) Regardless of notes or hold, miss score is -500
2) Triple notes perfect (1~50combo) : 1500pts , (over 51combo) : 3000pts
Triple notes Great (1~50combo) : 750pts , (over 51combo) : 2250pts
Quad over notes perfect (1~50combo) : 2000pts , (over 51combo) : 4000pts
Quad over notes Great (1~50combo) : 1000pts , (over 51combo) : 3000pts
I calculate like this (1,2 notes)=+1000, (3notes)=+1500, (4notes over)=+2000
3:37 Here is good example. extremly, 'ONE miss all perfect' same result, but former ocurred miss middle part, latter ocurred only last arrow, latter score is higher than fomer. As Bemani game adapting percentage score, PIU Score system is very extraordinary.
강현구- H.K. Kang we did check in XX, miss in hold is -300, not -500.
Considering how wide the timing windows are compared to every single other game that utilizes the EX score, wouldn't that system be more prone to ties between players?
This would definitely happen in the middle range if we were scaling difficulties for tournaments similar to 4-panel events. The argument if that were changed would be "use VJ and make the windows tighter to break ties" and this ends up running into its own slew of problems like timing rolling brackets (which is the most inconsistent thing on a window that tight).
Chris not at all, take a look at how dense PIU charts are. Even if ties were happening constantly, increase the difficulty level in tournaments! This argument falls apart as well when you take a look at tournaments in the past and see that hardly happen. When do PIU players get the same judgment ratio? Hardly ever, and again, this can be avoided by bringing up the difficulty level in events.
@@happyf333tz For the record, I completely agree with having difficulties up in events (especially upper-level divisions) to make it more interesting.
What I'm conflicted on is the balance between timing and timing windows: People always say the windows are super wide and a joke to time on, so should we really be basing the score system on that? For a game that has extremely loose windows and a big push and emphasis on difficulty, the only way I see myself agreeing to any kind of EX scoring is if missing is punished hard as those are a much more primary source of non-combos over bads and you can't get timing on something that you don't hit. If the score spread between each judgement was both wide and yet fairly even then I can see this working out but otherwise I'm not sure I'd agree.
Very well informative video and valid points and counter-arguments. I agree with EX Scoring over combo for years. My only thing I would suggest is to not erase TOTAL SCORE but add EX Score (name it "RAW SCORE" or whatever) between rows "MAX COMBO" and "TOTAL SCORE". Pleases both sides. Since there are people who preferred EX Score, having both will eventually transition to that direction moving forward for tournaments as desired rather than just hit the immediate kill button. It took DDR to slowly transition to EX Score (with ideas borrowed by ITG at the time) but it was done progressively.
Yeah
I just wish every game would go with IIDX's approach with EX SCORE, because there are so many games i love but yet nobody seems to even question if it's a good idea, combo scoring or not.
Like, DDR having the scores be always maxed at 1,000,000 and Pop'n having cap at 100,000, it's just a bit concerning, I guess? I dunno.
But regardless, IIDX's EX score is fair in that if you and somebody else get the same amount of notes hit(i.e. 499 perfects, 1 great), then it WILL be even, and it will be considered a draw ingame and by everyone else.
also, I wish that you mentioned other games, since osu! is one of the worst offenders. There are too many times when, somehow, despite having a higher acc, I still couldn't beat my scores because I didnt get the same combo multipliers.
Even Taiko suffers from this issue, but it's made up for it by actually letting you toggle an EX-score mode, so there's that.
After watching this video I'm probably just gonna play pump casually, because christ, this is BROKEN
While I agree on this because I've had some cheap wins (and losses) because of combos, I still think a player who can maintain their combo longer should be rewarded. Personally I think EX scoring defeats the purpose of comboing entirely, other than just being a secondary metric in case of a tie. It's a great system, just maybe not for PIU.
Why? What does comboing have to do with rhythm? Thats what I dont understand. Maybe as a tie breaker I wouldnt mind it, but imo accuracy is always the most important factor
@@_silverword PIU values combo over timing, you can play a multitude of other games like DDR, but PIU is not DDR.
@@_silverword Сomboing has a little common with rhythm, but comboing has a lot to do with doing complex step patterns right. You may treat breaking a combo in pump the same ways you do with falling down during dance performance or ice skating - even if you do ALL other movements perfectly, this will inevitable spoil all your performance.
@@_silverword it's based on consistency instead of accuracy. ultimately i think ex score is a bad idea cause it's the exact other side that only focuses on accuracy when i feel like both values are important, there needs to be a middle ground where maybe misses exponentially take more and more points off the more you get them.
I 100% agree with this. Music shouldnt be about comboing. It should be about accuracy
Pump It Up isn't about music only, it's about speed, stamina and skill. So missing arrows/combobreaks is a significant dealbreaker for a score, according to a manufacturer's point of view.
I'm here for the comments
While EX scoring by itself wouldn’t work, with some modifications to account for Pump’s mechanics it definitely could.
what's rolling bracket mean?
Rolling brackets are like regular brackets where you physically hit one panel with one foot and two other panels with the other foot, but instead it simply alternating between two arrows in the chart, it is a weird sub-division of 3 notes that you are alternating your feet over. Great examples of this are Emperor S16, X-Rave S17, Queen of the Red S18 / D19, and Windmill D23.
I will always support combo scoring over ex scoring for one major flaw in EX scoring... The "Tactful miss" or the variable that by choosing to skip a particular arrow or note, regardless of reason so you can time other portions of the song. Like ignoring Turntables, or Charge notes in IIDX because the -2 (theoretical best, you don't actually lose points) is worth the better judgement on that particular pattern. IIDX uses random at the highest level, so this increases the possibility of awkward charge notes.
For the casual "I don't play dance games" crowd, commentators are always going to have to explain why a PFC loses to a GFC, or a play that isn't even a FC. Your penalizing a player who has a lower variance in timing [or being more consistent] and awarding a win to someone who has a wider overall timing variance, but MIGHT have an narrower band excluding outliers. Musynx has this problem because the gap between 115% and 125% maximum [these might be a tad off] is exclusively a stealth timing element you wouldn't know existed unless you did homework, which is literally a gap between its best judgement, and the theoretical +/-0ms discrepency of the chart.
By not rewarding combo plays of charts, your actually rewarding people who go "that one note is awkward to hit (whether it be a weird spin, a footswitch thats out of place, whatever reason a player can tell themselves its not worth it) IIDX money scoring [the 200k, not the EX score] actually gave you 1/4 of the score exclusively on a (Your max combo/Song max combo) and when IIDX goes through new versions you only keep your greatest clear lamp, but not the actual EX score [the EX ghost can be transfered as part of a paseli premium sub, but the physical score will need to be repeated.]
The only flaw to comboing systems is those with fever or star power because it takes a game where a PP should give you the highest score, to a game where people who researched the "best route" can time worse than a perfect play, but use external knowledge to victory over someone who might be blind playing a chart not knowing a song has portions of reduce density to maximize an external bonus.
When rhythm gamers choose their game of choice, they agree to the scoring system the developer formulated. Players shouldn't need to circumvent the information presented on the results screen to claim who was the better player, the developer did the arithmetic for you. Developers can always rewrite the formula on a new release, which could mean PIU might go the mobile route, but mobile might be the outlier and Arcade PIU will use the same formula on the next version. By emphasizing combos for PIU, PFC > EX for DDR, it can be a claim as little as getting players to spend more money, for EX scoring... it could be playing songs hundreds of times for a "theoretical best random" and then maximizing that one singular play.
What an impressive analysis!
But then it will be just like DDR but with harder charts. And DDR players will switch to it bec it has the similar scoring, and we all know DDR players are crazy about MFC & PFC. I know song pool is a diff story but u know what i mean. 😬
9:12 covers that section.
Andamiro: Yes you are right
**BUT DO YOU THINK WE ARE INTERESTED TO MODIFY THE SCORING SYSTEM? LMFAO**
lol
I like the video and think this a great point of discussion, but I disagree to an extent with the following points:
-In my opinion, pump is a game about difficulty and maintaining your combo as opposed to being as accurate as possible, we bring up examples of how combo based scoring can screw up players, but EX can do so as well. The game should reward people who are able to combo through hard parts of a song better than people who get a few more greats. Especially with how hard songs are nowadays, not even trying on a certain hard section because you know your opponent won't hit it just so you can time them out during the easier sections doesn't seem like good assessment of skill imo
-there are more players who can pass higher end songs instead of perfecting them, because the higher end songs are straight up ridiculous. Some of these charts are just way too hard to even consider getting a flawless run on them, not to talk about doing so consistently. Which is again why I say we should reward players more if they can in fact combo through these rough parts, BECAUSE almost nobody can do it.
-Pump it up's internal scoring system doesn't calculate whether you break in an easy or hard area, because YOU DO. If you miss during an easy section which causes you to break combo, I really don't see that as an actual reason to downplay the scoring system, that's on you for goofing up in an easy section. The only exception to this, and the only thing I will give EX scoring over current pump scoring is in the case of pad error. Often when I'm playing, I see easy sections as opportunities to build up combo for harder sections, especially on harder songs where the difficult sections are bound to make you miss. I will say though that having something like a "challenge section" where you get additional points for every note hit in this section would be a nice idea imo.
-to be honest, if two players miss 1 note from each other, I expect the person with the higher combo to win, not a draw. This again, might be because of MY bias, but I feel it gives actual value to the combo counter as a way to keep track of the score.
-In my opinion a person who doesn't ever miss in a song has performed better than a person who generally has better timing but missed a few notes. The former shows that they were able to perform well DESPITE the difficulty curves thrown at them (which ofc pump has alot of), while the latter shows only selective mastery of a song. If a out of 1,000 notes p1 got 990 perfects and 10 greats I honestly think they should be declared winner over p2 if they were to get 997 perfects and 3 misses. That's 3 notes where they could literally just do nothing and still win, so to me that feels wrong.
-this leads into the point of, yes, I do think an S should have an added bonus over an A. There should be an award for a completely non miss run, and I think the 100k bonus helps with that. In the example you showed I think it would have been MORE confusing if you had the person who got an A beat the person who got an S. To spectators, S is obvi >> A, but somehow the player with the worse grade wins? The added bonus for FC runs helps prevent this situation. At the same time you mentioned that pump does allow lower letter grades to beat higher ones. Again, the S/SS/SSS bonus helps prevent that. It gives you a reason to keep going if you get a bad in a hard section.
-Feel free to correct me on this but I'm pretty sure grading rolling brackets the way they are (as in each step being and individual not) gives you more score than if they were just counted as quad/ triple brackets. Let's say you're at 51+ combo, hitting all 4 parts of a rolling bracket with a perfect will give you more score than just hitting a normal quad at perfect (4 notes *(1000+1000)=8000 > 1 note *(1000+1000)*2=4000). So yeah rolling brackets are harder, but they give you more reward if you execute them properly. Not to mention with the current format of the scoring system, they're alot scarier because they have a high potential to make you break combo with a something like a bad.
-Finally, the reason for each of the bonuses, at least from what I can tell, is to reward continuous performance under harder steps. Brackets should absolutely give you more score over a normal step. Getting an S should reward you over an A, having a longer combo without breaking should net you some kind of reward
-The only thing I see EX scoring having over Combo scoring in the case of pump it up, is with considering pad error. It does make it easier to recalc. In the case of offering a recalc though, Andamiro could potentially develop some kind of visual on screen indicator of your score/ your multiplier (as DDR funnily enough does do this). A problem with this solution may be screen clutter though.
Again these are my opinions, sorry for the long laundry list, I think making a reply video (do people still do that?) might have been better.
TBF as much people hate it, a lot the problems with pump IS the differences it has with DDR. Unfortunately people ignore the fact that systems in DDR work very well for just about everything but just because you can take from DDR doesn't make you a clone of it. You can always improve on something too. Embracing a lot of the structure and level of quality that DDR has would be wonderful for pump. I'd love to see that.
I complety agree, the scoring system made loose a match with God Mode s18, i only got 23 misses with Stage pass but lost due to combo, i hvve a combo of 240 while my opponent got 334 with no Stage pass And fewer perfects
So actually how you decide that you deserve a win then? Does game clearly states that "whoever gets more perfects, wins" or "whoever gets stage pass, wins"? I guess no, the game (with its scoring) clearly states that combo keeping is a very important. So - from game manufacturer's point of view - you lose.
i always despised combo scoring. miss once? well too bad all your score is gone!!!!!! this is just not fun.
if combo scoring didnt AWFULLY impact score, i would be more fine with it.
This may not be a viable solution just a curious notion but what if tournaments changed the style of player vs player in real time to taking 2 player's averaging scores on a song with 3 attempts. I can see many reasons why this would be less desirable such as crowd hype and dragging out the duration of tournaments/ matches but i think youll get a more realistic player vs player comparison. This way would not only challenge a player to be consistent on charts, but also their stamina control/ endurance. I believe the recent tournament that you hosted demonstrated something like this and i think there is an obvious display of skill between players. Again just a brainstorm thought far from perfect. Edit: Avalanche 3 was the tournament im referring to
*cof cof* osu C O M B O
xd
Yo entendí que es las retas mamaste si tu combo está todo rancio
tl;dr Use DDR scoring
being an Arcaea player, I think EX scoring is an actual good scoring system cuz it actually helps with timing lotsssss. 🤠
Second
Nah. This aint ITG
Nirvash this ain’t SMX
Well, argument about "how we can adjust the score" is ridiculous. YOU. JUST. DON'T.
@Austin McCree Ok, if you want... My point is that complaining about pad is usually very subjective and looks like a try to cover one's lack of play skill under variety of circumstances. Getting used to play on an ideal pads is not an excuse for score recalculation after performing on a tournament pads (which may be less than ideal, of course). All players at this location play at the same pads, so all are in the same conditions. If you miss - that mean you miss, and complaining about "y'know, I'm one of the best players here, I just can't miss" is a very indecent behavior for a competitive player.
And yes, sometimes best player may lose to underdog, those things happens in real life here and there indeed and that make sports less boring, by the way.
TL;DR: The only objective way to judge player performance on tournaments is - one try, no replay, no recalc (except for external obstacles, of course). All replays/recalcs looks like highly subjective, corrupt and overall nepotism/favoritism, which is definitely not good for competitive stage and community spirit.
3:45 What are You on about? Why would they draw if one of the players did better? Are You trying to completely discredit maintaining a combo? Just get good and stop trying to change the met simply because You have a shortcoming.
If We both get the same acc on notes and the opnly difference is that You got a highier combo then it is only logical You get to win.
Who cares about accuracy if You can't even hit the god damn notes? You'll get people missing notes on purpose to get better accuracy. Absolutely pointless, scoring should be from ground up.
First hit the notes and then we can talk about how accurately You actually hit it.
- "Are You trying to completely discredit maintaining a combo?"
Because it does not deserve to be in a competitive environment. Casual? Yeah fine I'm OK with that, but accuracy should still be more rewarded if anyone's going to have a clear gauge of improvement.
- "Just get good and stop trying to change the met simply because You have a shortcoming"
You said this to one of the first 2 people who A'd 1949 D28, *the original chart*
- "If We both get the same acc on notes and the opnly difference is that You got a highier combo then it is only logical You get to win."
BOTH deserves to win as they are equally skilled despite having different weaknesses. They shouldn't be judged by their niches
- "Who cares about accuracy if You can't even hit the god damn notes? You'll get people missing notes on purpose to get better accuracy."
This is actually a good point to make, but you clearly haven't watched the entire video at the point of making this comment.
- "First hit the notes and then we can talk about how accurately You actually hit it.
"
Yeah, by cheesing (cheating in PIU terms)? Cheesing is not skill.
PS: Stop capitalizing pronouns, you're not speaking to Gods.
@@415alpha "accuracy should still be more rewarded" - but why? There are no logical arguments about accuracy being more important than combo, it's just a subjective preference and vision. So the vision of Pump developers is clearly "combo is more important than accuracy". For an opposite, there are a lot of other rhythm games.
The miss can be anywhere. If P1 and P2 had the same exact All Perfects and 1 Miss but the Miss occurred in different areas, the person who broke the combo closer to the center of the song loses. The "hard part" or "easy part" is subjective and may not be the reason why the Miss happened. The Miss could also be a result of a pad misfire via lesser sensitivity of pads. A Bad, which also breaks combo, can also apply here for oversensitivity of the pads.
@@TheJonasJuice To add to this, I keep seeing people bring up the argument that players would miss notes on purpose if EX scoring existed in PIU. This has been a thing since the start of PIU. Players will purposely skip certain notes just to keep their lifebar up to get a pass or just stomp around and HOPE they do not get a miss so they can earn an S grade. Of course players would do this with EX scoring or with literally any type of scoring. This is a player lacking skill issue, not a score system issue. The higher in skill you go, the less often you see this happen, but even then it will still happen.
@@TheJonasJuice > the person who broke the combo closer to the center of the song loses. - yep, because keeping larger combo requires more skill. So whoever keeps larger combo - wins.
> The miss can be anywhere - yes, if your skill isn't high enough to keep combo stably.
> The Miss could also be a result of a pad misfire via lesser sensitivity of pads. - if your opponent may play better on the very same "less sensitive pads", he/she has better skill. Period.