100%. Indoctrinating children into almost any religion is child abuse. Telling a child that unless they do XYZ their souls will burn and be tortured for all of eternity (especially when XYZ isn’t even being a good person, it is just believing in that religion’s god) is child abuse. And don’t even get me started on the amount of children who have been exploited or worse through religion. What decent parents could ever expose their child to something like that… Truly heartbreaking.
This is SO REAL....The equivalent of men who barely passed highschool and who have no life skills who go around calling themselves alphas to feel important.
The wild part is, it doesn't have to be like that - if you allow one woman to marry many men as well as allowing one man to marry many women, then the numbers have a chance of leveling out. But that's never an option. It's never even mentioned as an option.
Except that’s not how literally any of this works in the real world, only in religious circles. And in the real world, women can have multiple husbands and men can have multiple wives. Or women can have multiple wives and men can have multiple husbands. It evens out, but you don’t mention that because then you lose your grounds for policing other people’s relationships
Growing up, I knew about the fundamentalists, but never about that seedy, cruel side. This is eye-opening to me. Children are disposable trash to them, it seems.
Any system that singles out and harms one gender/ race/ religion/ identity harms everyone on a broad scale. Its just often harder to perceive how. Even the men in regular LDS are harmed, by harming the women. Half of their population is disempowered leading to trauma and toxicity, so the whole group is lessened.
Polygamy really hurts men as a group as much as women (possibly more) because of all the leftover (lower status) men. This is the reason that polygamy societies are usually more violent because marriage can have a “civilizing” effect on men. If you take away the possibility of ever having a wife and family from 90% of the male population, things are going to pop off.
Unfortunately, it appears to be the new normal. Every woman I might complains about "guys having five girlfriends" while every male is single. My female cousins content themselves with being some dude's "main" - all of this is atheist liberal America.
I was an illegitimate baby in the 50s--Idaho, no less. A sweet lady wanted to adopt baby girls, and everything seemed legit, until they discovered she was shopping in several hospitals. Turned out, she was trying to create a genepool of future wives for her community. Very happy my paperwork fell thru.
Every day I learn something more disturbing about Idaho. To be fair, there are sketchy religious communities in Spokane as well, it's such a strange place at times.
@@JulieEnsign holy crap at least you didn't end up in that sort of life. If she was looking for orphaned or unwanted baby girls to bring into and be raised by an FLDS community, she probably was aiming to diversify the gene pool as to avoid or at least decrease inbreeding, which causes its own set of problems for the children produced from it, look at the Hapsburgs or the ancient Egyptian royals.
This is true. In fact, afaik this is the best way to view what patriarchy is: Men exploiting men, and women being reduced to prizes. Consider the question of autonomy and agency, two of the biggest things feminists are fighting for. Men who exploit other men see those exploited as having agency, which they are trying to force into terrible sets of choices. As for the women? Prizes don't have autonomy or agency... Speaking as a man mulling over the issue without formal education in this matter myself, feel free to ignore me if it's wildly off the mark. But it does seem to explain a lot.
Historical polygamy is only one example of a patriarchal social convention, one that has largely been rejected for centuries, at least in European tradition. I would argue that modern polygamists are typically much more focused around women, outside of a minority of higher status men. There are a lot of reasons patriarchal societies have largely been the norm, but matriarchy isn’t immune to tyranny either. It simply looks different.
There are a few isolated matriarchal cultures, mostly in Africa and the Himalayas. But their cruelty towards their own is limited by their size and the demands of the environments they live in, so they never got to become the groteque horror patriarchy is.
Exactly. The old men don’t want the competition of young, handsome men. So many things about these communities and how they function are sick, up to and including that they are finding many genetic issues due to the years of inbreeding.
Its a rare cult that is not obsessed with sex. Its the leader who is the most obsessed with carnal lust for himself. Pure evil. They are also the prime leaders of twisting the Bible to fit their perverted desires of the flesh.
@@radagast7200 Well it is worst in islam, they can do MUTA which is form of "marriage" that lasts for "minimum" of 3days or however long the "contract" was.. legal prostitution in short.
Not to mention that this considerably increases the chance of inbreeding in a community when 10 women have children who are all siblings or half-siblings.
Oh it’s guaranteed and not seen as gross by them. There was a show called “escaping polygamy” (10/10 recommend) about these women who left the Kingston clan and are helping other people leave polygamy cults. One of them was courted by her uncle when she was 14, another married her cousin when she was 18 (if I remember correctly). There’s part of one episode where 2 of them are marking how many of their relatives have left and they literally point out how often one person is listed as a daughter on one paper but is then a wife on the next.
@emro164 You're talking about the same book where two girls got their dad drunk so they could get knocked up, right? And that's after everyone on Earth except for one family died.
@justincrowley8787 Lmfao the story of Noah's Ark cracks me up everytime. Somehow after the flood receded, that same family repopulated the entire earth without inbreeding, and same for the animals. But two of every animal? Why do we have different animals now? Why did Noah let everyone else die? But apparently it's a METAPHOR? Huh.??????
@@justincrowley8787 hell the same book where ALL of humanity came from 2 people, and then as someone else pointed out all of humanity except for 1 family was killed later on. According to the bible we are literally all related. As a kid the story of Adam and Eve grossed me out (didn’t put together Noah’s Ark until I was older) and my mom attempted to explain it away/make it okay by saying something along the lines of “it’s okay since it’s such a distant relation”
@@tabora_ and also, wtf did the lions eat, and how tf did Noah get all of the animals from all around the world? Like at minimum polar bears should have gone extinct. And actually thinking about it now what about all the sea/ocean creatures? Like I don’t think all of them would have necessarily gone extinct but things definitely would have gotten fucked up from that much flooding
One of my earliest memories of interacting with someone who had been from the mormon church was one of my aunt's students when i was maybe 7. He had been adopted at 13 years old bc his parents whipped him until he was unconscious simply because a friend at school had given him a sip of their drink and they didnt know he couldnt have caffeine and it was an energy drink. They were extremely apologetic and he told his friend "how could i possibly be mad at you for not having information that i wasnt born with. We all must learn in life." And he told his parents because he wanted to go to church extra to apologize for drinking it. They whipped him with several different things and then they left him on the side of the highway in florida. Semi unconsious and bloody in the late august heat. Shirtless. So he was severely sunburnt soon enough. He was picked up by a state trooper, his parents arrested for abandonment and abuse, and adopted by a jewish/catholic couple and he discovered a love for cafès when he worked at one when he was 16 and now he is 28 and just opened his own Cafè in the Keys. Named it PossibiliTeas.
This is certainly not a teaching of the LDS church, but unfortunately, no matter what church you look at, you will find a few people that get extremely authoritarian with their children about their religion. It very well could have happened, but as with all religions, you have to separate the church from its members sometimes.
@@WatchingwaitingG2D: Before you say "Wasn't LDS" may I remind you that both Ruby Franke and Jodi Hildebrandt are LDS and were in contact with LDS bishops &c.
One of the great things lost boys do is get people out of the cult. The amount of stories you hear about the brother's being a gateway between the cult and the outside world is amazing. So their own disgusting practices is destroying them.
It is illegal, but enforcement is sporadic and the closed nature of the cult makes proof difficult. Legally only one marriage exists and, so long as the sister wives are over the state’s age of consent and aren’t testifying, they just show up as unwed teen mothers. In fact it’s very common that plural wives draw Medicaid as single mothers living below the poverty line.
My brother in law is a lost boy. His sister was one of Warren Jeff’s many wives and she was essentially tortured. She’s come out sharing her experience but for privacy reasons I’m not sharing their names. The brother in law is one of the greatest guys I’ve ever met and while he was never granted a full education, he is extremely bright. He’s an amazing father and will be and amazing husband for my sister when he finally proposes. What happened to him and his family is truly awful and I’m so happy the flds community is dying out as members scatter. I’ve been down to Colorado city a lot and it’s wild the world they live in. They look at outsiders with such distain, and the little girls wear heavy makeup and look the same as the older ones.
My sister dated a nephew of Warren Jeffs, his brothers and dad were “lost boys”. He was born years after they were expelled. The stories his family told were harrowing.
Sorry to say polygomy flds community is not dying out as you state. I start to wonder if it will ever die out. it spreads and makes more communities as they break off. if it still is going strong even in the 21st century who knows if it will ever die out.
The government very much knows these kids exist. The state of Utah supports these families. The children in polygamous families are on Medicaid. I would assume that they also receive food stamps if they qualify for Medicaid, but I don't know.
@@Hillary92126FLDS kids do have birth certificates and I believe SSN’s (I’m not sure about that one tho). Or at least they exist, whether a lost boy actually has his birth certificate is a different story.
@@tammymccoy8971I think it depends on what compound. My aunt escaped a lesser known one as a teenager after she had a few kids and she invented a name and age because she had no records and didn't know what her birthday was anyway. She also didn't want to be found for obvious reasons.
This is also why certrain regions and faiths that venerate polygamy are constantly in wars started by older men, sending younger men off, and praise martyrdom for them. AND why they so heavily emphasis female conversion. Numbers game.
I'm just not really sure this has been historically true, there's been lots of cultures that practiced polygamy across the globe and they've all done it a little differently.
Oh, this makes so much sense! Isn't it the standard for Muslim men to have 5 (edit: 4) wives (where allowed)? I know this is a side topic, but your comment clicked for me.
This explanation fills in a question I had while reading an old family book put together from diaries written back in the late 1800's about the "menfolk" armed to protect their daughters from being persuaded to run off to join the Mormon church whenever that church came through town.
It's not just the fundamentalists. Mormons are disgusting when it comes to turning theri backs on their children. I experienced that myself back in 2001 when I came out as gay. I was kicked out of the house three days later, and I knew many other young gay men like myself who were kicked out onto the street by our Mormon parents. For all their family is forever branding, they don't stand by it
I was friends with a guy in the 1990s that was a lost boy. They transported them up to a labour camp in British Columbia, and he ended up having to escape in the middle of the night. He was working under the table, since he had no legal status. His stories were terrifying, it's shameful that they're human trafficking like that. I think of him often and hope he's doing ok.
My auntie (not blood-heart family) is ex-Mormon. Her dad always used to say “good bulls sire cows” and was proud of having all daughters. _So. Many. Daughters._
@@AGS363No, just girls born into sexual abuse and exploitation. What kinda reasoning is that? It's fine that they abuse women because at least they don't let them leave?
It’s absolutely awful! I’ve read books written by girls who’ve escaped the FLDS. Heartbreaking books. They share about the lost boys being kicked out of the community by the older men. It’s sickening!!!
I owe a big "thank you" to you for the help your channel has given me in my decision to leave the church. I had only been in the church for a year and a half, but after viewing the info on your channel, I was about to do more research and made my decision. The next step for me was my endowment. I have to say, if I had ended up blindsided by that ceremony, I would have RUN, not walked, out of the temple. Thanks again for your bravery in posting about these subjects! I was so well-informed, my president couldn't even argue with me. I have to say, he was very sweet. Again, many thanks!
@karinsch3347 Becuase by staying single they are supported by the state (e.g. men who pay taxes) and dont have to show or give anything in return for this support. This is why a large state destroys society and why women vote for it, they vote for male slaves.
Historically, the answers are no better: polygamous societies were generally societies that practiced a lot of slavery and/or fought a lot of wars - to dispose of the "unneeded" men.
It makes sense when the old Abraham's faiths were all waring in the m1ddl3 3ast. They were rife with polygamy and always plundering neighboring clans, cities, and peoples. Taking their women, animals, supplies, and killing the men or throwing them on the front line. 😢
the secular society works exactly the same male-only draft is still a thing in the majority of the world and men are forced to live under the constant fear that women will start a war to get rid of them, like currently in Ukraine and Russia (Ukrainian women who fled to the West thanks to their female privilege mock the men who drowned in the Black Sea desperately trying to flee the draft on TikTok) people think I'm crazy about a law that not currently in effect but I just don't want to die and both the current and historical practice shows that I'm in grave danger as an ugly man (I can't ignore the women who call for a genocide of e.g. short men on Twitter)
The Europeans are the most war-like and violent people in history and they banned Polygamy a thousand years ago. Polygamy is immoral but non polygamist societies aren't in any way more peaceful.
I’m glad you point this out. I’m not Mormon, but I was abused as a boy. Not only females are taken advantage of. I have made peace and have a great wife now.
I’m so sorry this happened to you. And good for you, figuring out how to make peace with it and how to make a different kind of life for yourself. Sending you my sincere respect and very best wishes for you and your wife.
I greatly admire this young woman for speaking out with the knowledge of someone that has been inside of the absolute EVIL of the LDS cult whether or not they are a polygamous branch.
I live near Bountiful, their "Lost Boys" were a real issue in our local communities. Those poor kids had never lived on the outside of their culture, it must have been so scary for them.
I knew a couple lost boys and felt bad for them. I wanted to get to know them but unfortunately, I'm Native American and they were very racist so that didn't go far. 🤣 Honestly, it taught me a lot about being careful about the polygamists around Colorado City and the like.
When I was in the Army I met another Soldier with the last name Jeffs. He was a truck driver and was giving me a ride back to the barracks with some other Soldiers. I asked him if we had met before because his name was familiar, and he said, 'No, you probably recognize my name because of my father.' He had run away from his family a few years prior as a minor, went through a rough patch, and then joined the Army when he was 18. He was only 19 when I met him. I wish I knew where he was and how he was doing now. It seemed like the Army had really helped turn his life around.
It’s really common for former cult members to join the military when they get out, especially men. And even more so if they were kicked out, rather than choosing to leave. It can really help some people, but the similarities in any “high demand organization” can reinforce the harm done by their upbringing inside a cult. There’s someone who’s written some books about her experiences growing up in a cult and then joining the military, but I’m blanking on her name. The YT channel, From Cults to Consciousness, has interviewed her a few times, if anyone is interested. Fascinating life story and a really smart, insightful lady. We really should provide much more help to people who are interested in leaving cults. If for no other reason, then because cults are dangerous to public health and safety. Fear of suffering even more in the outside world is one of the main scare tactics used to maintain control. That and cutting anyone who leaves off completely so they can’t see their remaining family. If there was a proper social safety net, people would feel safer leaving. When they’re kicked out and then have to adjust to the regular world without having actively wanted it, it can be even harder not to end up in a very bad place. The military can be the best option of what is currently available to pull themselves out of that again. But there really should be more options.
@@willowtdog6449 from what I understand there is help, there’s a bunch of different non profit organizations that have shelters, and help with basic things like furthering education, job placement, etc. I need to start donating to one of them. I do know that the chick that runs cults to consciousness knows the proper organization’s that help these people. The sad truth is if they don’t have a relative that already left manny times they have no way of knowing where the organizations are, etc.
Let's be honest, it's about 4550-year-old man trying to compete for the affections of 13-year-olds with 16-year-old boys. That's the math that don't work.
Exactly! The boot them out, because they don't want the competition and the sheep women have been brainwashed to believe that it's some other reason. Total BS and totally evil.
It's probably both lol, even without the age factor the math doesn't work, when you include the age thing, that just gives you a more specific picture of why specific people are kicked out as opposed to others
It's definitely part of it for sure. But there is a real math problem that if you're Warren Jeffs and need several dozen wives, you can't have dissatisfied men with no dating prospects and no wives sitting around potentially fomenting an uprising against you
Younger girls are crazy about older men - just look at all the fantasies about a powerful, wealthy older man out there it’s everywhere in women’s erotica and women’s romance. It’s the younger guys who can’t compete just check the sexlessness ratios.
I dated a lost boy about 10 years back when I was 17. He was 20 at the time and behaved very immaturely. In my own immaturity I thought it was fun to sort of “teach him” about things like different pop culture stuff he had never heard of and we spent most of our time partying . I think after coming out of such a strict religious setting he was going wild with his freedom alittle. He had no concept of consent though too. Like he genuinely tried to rape me in a closet at a kickback in the same room where everyone was hanging out and his cousin who had been out for a long time opened the door and pulled me out after he heard me yelling. Wish I knew what happened to him, I realized he just thought that’s how the world works and it must’ve been hard being rejected and shunned and exiled by your family all alone trying to fend for yourself in a culture you don’t really recognize
There's this concept of helicopter kids at college. They grow up with such strict parents (helicopter parents lol) so once they get to college away from their parents, they don't know how to survive in the real world and just go crazy and party. Most of them come out of it and calm down as they learn life skills and experiences.
@@Loralanthalas He was brainwashed. It takes maybe a few months to indoctrinate an emotionally unstable adult into a cult, imagine how easy it is to do it to a CHILD. Children learn nothing that they aren’t taught or don’t naturally learn. If he was taught that it’s okay to behave that way and was never around anyone who disapproved, how was he going to know it was wrong? I’m not saying he shouldn’t be accountable for the harm he could have caused, but you can’t pretend the context isn’t relevant.
When I was a run away drug addict at 15 I was in salt lake and met this 16 year old boy who’s family just abandoned him in front of a drop in center. He was so sweet. He ended up unaliving himself a few years later after he became a gay prostitute because he didn’t even have a birth certificate or ss number to get work with.
You are aware that this is NOT THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS . These groups are not the morman church. These groups are outlawed in most places. Yes they still exist but they are dying out. If the TV shows would be quiet they would die out sooner. Now there is a group call the Christian bible marriage which are mulit wives. Sadly these "marriages" are for sex only.
Yeah. I didn't grow up polygamist Mormon, but as a teen I did start going to this teeny-tiny Christian "church" in the middle of nowhere that my sister's husband found online. They started giving the elders the authority to approve or reject marriages of the young people in the congregation based on how well they believed the young men could keep the women in line, and how "teachable" the young women were. I wasn't "teachable" enough, my husband wasn't authoritative enough & after some thinly veiled threats that if we got married we wouldn't see our families or friends still in the group again, we realized it was an obvious cult & left, but not without severe PTSD & harassment. It's been 9 years since either of us have seen our families bc both sides stayed, and the cult is still around. Last I heard, there were discussions about buying land & building a commune. It was one thing to leave the adults, but I still think about the children and I hope that one day when they're grown, maybe they'll remember we had the courage to leave, and that they can too...
@@kylez8010 Evangelical Christian, but with more emphasis on church "government" and divorced from any established, recognized denomination. So, like... before they went out on their own, they used to be under the Presbyterian denomination & there's a broader governing body for that organization for the main purpose of decentralizing the power structure & ensuring there is recourse for congregants who feel their pastor is abusing his position. They intentionally removed themselves from any possible centure when people started leaving & accusing them of cult behavior, and reporting them to the Presbyterian headquarters. I was in attendance when they announced they would no longer be affiliated with the Presbyterian church, stating that they believed the organization had become too liberal. They aren't big enough at this point to be recognized soley by their church name, but it's called Trinity & it's based in Indiana 🤷♀️
@@lang1031 That's a whole can of worms that only current/former Mormons are going to argue about tbh and I don't have an opinion about it. I don't have a stake in that topic at all, which is why what I said was about me and my experience since that's what I can vouch for. I wish you well though ✌️
My parents had a real problem with organized religion, therefore, I was not forced nor expected to attend any particular church. We do consider ourselves Christians, but I am thankful every day that I wasn’t raised in that. I asked my dad about it once, and he said, “Well, we’ve taught you the basics, and tried not to indoctrinate you into any sect or cult. If you choose to join a congregation, it will be just that-your choice. Before you make any decisions, look around. Ask questions. Decide for yourself.”
@@larissaasay6957 I realize how very fortunate I was to have them. They expected much, but they were there for me (and my extended family of cousins.) If something went wrong, they would help if they could.
OMG, this is horrendous. This is how incel, damaged men are created. As a mother of a son who is quiet and shy, I especially find this absolutely abhorrent. This is not following the teachings of Jesus or following any sectarian teachings of treating others as you would wish to be treated yourself. You are so brave. I love your channel.There are many toxic religions. If we all followed the golden rule regarding other people, animals and the environment, the world would be a much better place to live.
I would say it's more of the hypersexual men that are created from this, I think a lot of the incels are created because there's not really any fathers in their homes, as well as enabling mothers.
It's more than this. Millions of women are voluntarily sharing the same men in the dating pool. They're literally denying many of the brightest and smartest men an opportunity for a relationship in favor of the opposite.
@@EpochUnlocked"Denying men the opportunity" lmfao, this explains all your previous comments. Women are not public resources. If women are refusing to date you, there is probably a reason, and looks are hardly it when you consider how unimportant people treat beauty standards in men.
@@EpochUnlockedThey're not denying them anything. No matter how bright or nice a man is, he's not entitled to an opportunity for a relationship with a woman.
Thank you so much for talking about all of these harsh realities. I grew up in St George, and only a few of us knew this reality. I appreciate all of your hard work. Being Ex Mormon myself, I feel the information should at least be public. That way people really know what they are getting into.
This actually makes the memoir Educated make so much more sense. I was so confused why it was so normalized for Tara's dad to overwork and disregard the health of his kids.
I lived with a man from a large polygamous family. And yes, because he wasn't devout they dropped him off in downtown Seattle at 15 and told him to figure it out. He had a lot of health issues and emotional problems.
About 15 years ago I saw Flora Jessop on an HBO doc. She brought the film crew to a mormon fundamentalist cemetery and so many of the grave markers (like most of them) were infant or newborn boys. I think she implied that it was shady. Not as if the mothers killed them but as if they didnt work as hard to keep the boys alive. Or that perhaps the men did do something to them. Do you know anything about this? It was a small desert cemetery and it was just so sad to see all those baby boys there thinking they must have been unwanted.
It could also be that most genetic disorders that are X linked will impact males a lot worse, so baby boys born with genetic defects are much less likely to survive. Diseases like haemophilia for example, which, if youre avoiding doctors, has a life expectancy of around 12, impact boys much more severely
That’s so disgusting and disturbing it’s hard to believe it’s happening in America in 2023. I hope all these places get shut down. And their child brides are also saved as well as the young boys. Oh gah it breaks my heart.
Just actually had a human trafficking case blow open in Hildale because some guy was trying to convince people he was the new prophet and people gave him their daughters. He transported those poor girls in a horse trailer.
@@cosmicmuffin322and there was one politician (I don’t remember his name or the state unfortunately) trying to lower the minimum age of marriage to 13, citing (roughly) “I know tons of people who have married 13 year olds, it all turned out great” 🤮
My mother in law (she left the church when she was 18 because she wanted to go to college) and to this day, the woman has to be convinced to go to an actual doctor. They all go to chiropractor!!! For medical treatment! Or they take a billion supplements. Does anyone know the origin of that? Is it because they fear that if someone goes to an actual doctor, they’re afraid they will be blinded with actual science?
@@philcriswell3540Quite frankly, after the last several years, not trusting the medical field seems like the smartest thing to do. Be very wary about what you're told or prescribed by doctors and nurses. Check up on whether it makes sense or seems smart. Hospitals across the nation were purposely using protocols that were killing patients to gain money from the government. That is not "first, do no harm". If they were willing to compromise like that on that issue, what are they doing on other issues- and not just the hospitals: the doctors and nurses who primarily took part knew that what they were doing was not helping the patients, and knew that, in most cases, it was actually causing harm and death, and they continued to toe the line that the hospital administration set for them instead of standing up for truth and right...
Often it is believing that God will heal all, and if you aren't healed, you aren't believing hard enough. Another part of it is that doctors are seen as part of the political left and aren't to be trusted
My sister is hard core fundamentalist Evangelical and her and her husband are like this to a degree. They will go to doctors as needed but every week I'm hearing about a new supplement or oil that will be life changing or have to cut this or that out of my diet because it's slow but certain death. I've never said it but I'm not going to take scientific advice from someone who doesn't believe in evolution and who is still almost gleefully waiting for 1-2 billion people to keel over from va.xx poisoning. And yeah, at least with Christians there is absolutely a link between some level of distrust around medicine and fundamentalism.
They believe God wants them to suffer and they must have done something wrong to be in pain . They believe mental illness learning disabilities are demon possession. My parents were in a cult and I went to a cult school.
This shows how law enforcement is COMPLICIT in the rape of girls and abandonment of boys by sick old men. They are PART of the problem and WONT do anything about it.
That documentary on Netflix called Keep Sweet, Pray and Obey talked about this subject… really heartbreaking stuff. I found a lot of relatable experiences in that documentary from my really conservative Christian upbringing.
Yeah it was definitely a percentage of how I grew up. I used to be so hurt at men and women constantly telling me to smile. And defer to the priesthood all around you.
When I lived in SLC I made friends with this homeless kid (maybe 18-19 y/o). I would invite him in on cold days, buy him mcdonald's, etc. When talking with him I found out he was born into an flds group and at some point he was dumped off with a group of guys in Northern UT. He had no ssn and could barely read. One day he was just gone. I still think about him from time to time.
I have seen this in my own community. Young men with no skills, no education, no hope simply thrown out on the streets and told to never come back. One young man I gave a ride when asked what his biggest ambition was told me “ I want to go to the homeless mission. In Spokane. I hear they feed you real good there. I would like to know what it feels like to have a full belly. Pa didn’t feed us boys real good.” I felt real bad for that boy. He was 16 years old.
I knew one of these boys growing up, it was my only exposure to the Mormon church until I was in my 30s. His mother basically hated him because it was a way to punish his father (she joined the church upon her divorce, when my friend was 10) and she made her son be the man, even making him work to pay all the rent for he, his mom, and 3 adult sisters at 15. At 17, she and the sisters moved out of the house and left him living there alone, now paying all the bills. I was horrified, wven as a teen. I even tried to make my parents adopt him. It was very sad.
That’s horrible. I already knew that not all boys would be able to have families when they grew up. I was aware that many of those particular men would leave the community. I didn’t realize that driving those boys and men out of the community and dumping them just any old place, like the side of the road, was so common. That’s not something that people outside of the faith & community hear about very much. What an awful system! You would think that they could stay and work for the community or something, instead of just kicking young men in their late teens out to fend for themselves! I cannot imagine the horror stories many of those men must have as they try to acclimate to the outside world. A world that, to them, might as well be outer space! They were likely told how “evil” everything and everyone is outside of the doors of the Mormon community. They simply would not have the life skills to cope. It would be a very steep learning curve, that’s for sure. I cannot imagine how terrified those young men must be when they are suddenly, unceremoniously dumped out into the unfamiliar & scary ….. away from everyone and every thing that they have ever known. It’s heartbreaking! 💔
This is a subject I think most people don't even think about. Sadly I am one. I only thought about how the girls don't have any choice in who they marry and sometimes being forced to marry someone old enough to be their grandfather!
I watched a thing on this, following some of the boys, all got into drugs and self harm, got sent to prison, just absolutely struggled in deep deep despair and suffering. Even having each other. They would find each other and live together and try to figure out this new world and it just.... It's horrific. It's child abuse. It's creating more prisoners and addicts. It's sick it needs to stop. Edit the documentary is called Sons of Perdition.
@@JDdr86, of course they still have value, it’s just we need to focus on preventing the situations to begin with so that it’s not impossible to get treatment for it.
@@Andyatl2002 It is just that, concerningly often, in this types of discussions, I hear people talk about the already messed-up, grown up (physically, that is...) individuals, as if they didn't matter! Hell, sometimes they're even spoken about as if they were some kind of deformed abominations that, while pitiable, aren't really worth considering or investing effort in. Do you know what is truly an abhorrent, monstrous abomination? To talk about tormented human beings like that! So yes, I will express my concern about that kind of talk. Human worth is irrevocable, infinite ♾️, unmeasurable, irreplaceable, and it most definitely doesn't have an expiration date, even though some people seem to think that it expires at the ripe old age of 18... sometimes sooner than that...
Having dinner with younger people, I was asked about "polyamory" which is apparently the new term for many partners of both sexes. I related my surprise at seeing buffalo herds in Yellowstone. Expecting the usual ungulate grouping, I thought to see dominant bulls with harems. Instead the herd seemed to be completely paired up. Relating this to my son, he said, "How else do you expect herds of many thousands to get along?"
As a mother of a teenage son and daughter, this makes me sick to my very core. I live and watch all your videos but this clip has been the biggest gut punch. It's horrendous abuse and also very dangerous to society. My heart breaks for all those girls and boys. No wonder you and your lovely husband got your babies out. I'm so heartbroken for those poor children who weren't so lucky. 😢
Thank-you! For bringing light to this travesty and inhumanity. So many focus on the horrors the little girls face, but forget about these innocent boys and their unholy fate. How anyone can believe this is the work of a "loving" Heavenly Father, looking in from the outside (no indoctrination from birth), their mind is warped. Thanks again for reminding people about the innocent victims.
Ive seen documentaries on those boys .. heart breaking. No child should be turned away from home for basically selfish reasons of the parents or in this case a religion .. thats probably my biggest problem with LDS .. i have 4 sons and 1 daughter ..I cant imagine her not having her brothers growing up .. shes grown now but back then .. i was in a cult for awhile lol. Got out with my kids
From discussions with my students, I was shocked at how many did not know that the normal human sex ratio is 1 to 1 at birth. I heard all sorts of guesses like 2 to 1 and 3 to 1 vigorously defended. Many took their immediate family distribution as the norm for the human race.
I was friends with a lost boy many years ago. He went on to start his own business and got married in the regular LDS church, but his story is heartbreaking. His family basically hates him. It's one of the many reasons why I think the FLDS church is one of the most evil organizations on the planet.
What are you confused about? I’m not an expert but cults/religions are a special interest of mine and polygamy cults happen to be what I’ve researched the most, so maybe I can help.
@@greenbeantm1096probably what is confusing is she doesn’t make a clear delineation between FLDS (a small splinter group that practices polygamy) and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (the 17 million member church which doesn’t practice polygamy and hasn’t since 1890.)
FLDS don’t send kids on missions. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the religion that she used to be a part of, is the group that sends out missionaries and has not practiced polygamy since 1890. The boys who go on missions are sent out and return home to non-polygamous couples and families. The group she is talking about here is a relatively tiny splinter group.
Two different groups, the mainstream LDS church is the one that sends kids out on missions and are not polygamous. The FLDS are the polygamists and do not send missionaries
I love the videos you make showing the horrible abuses that exist within the LDS Church. I am studying to become a Baptist minister this fall and I believe that you provide an excellent resource for demonstrating the misuses of organized religion in America. I pray that we can dismantle these harmful expressions and create something wholly true and compassionate. God bless you!
@@briansmith8730but the regular LDS church isn't awesome either. I knew a young divorced female and her mom went to an LDS church. They kept sending old men to my friends House to propose. Not everyone is obsessed with getting married and having 20 kids
Thanks for standing up for the truth and placing facts on the table. Remembering scripture, "The stone rejected by the builders shall become the cornerstone of the church." Don't dump them; co-opt them.
In Chinese polygamy, the "lost boys" became eunuchs or joined the military while their sisters became wives and concubines. In the lower ranks of society, married men were considered lucky.
Wow. Thank you for sharing this. I'm a curious person and ask a lot of questions. I never thought to ask that question. My ignorance. I love it when I become a little less ignorant.
Yes; & for the boys that do get out they have trouble surviving too because they have to learn a whole new set of coping skills. I knew one briefly. Yes was so desperate to pay his bills, he repeatedly cheated me on services that he quoted me previously. I let him get away with it because he was about to lose almost everything. He was so nervous & scared you could see him shake. We all make mistakes sometimes & I could tell he would have rather been honest about it. He got so confused I don't think he could think straight. Shortly after he moved away. I assume he's still trying to adjust & pull himself out of his past. May God have mercy on him.
If you think the LDS is all kinds of effed up just wait until you meet the FLDS. I used to jokingly make fun of the missionaries that were sent to Texas and tell them, “Good luck trying to recruit anyone now that Warren Jeffs ruined it for all of you!”
I wouldn’t doubt many women want to, but they can’t. They don’t get the same power as their husbands or the religious leaders in how things are done. Heck, I’ve heard that by mere fact of being a boy a son will already have more voice in the house than his mother will.
This is the FLDS not the LDS. These are the same ones who still believe in blood atonement. If the men believe they are being wronged and being stripped of their god given rights, they will kill you. A mother and her infant daughter were both killed by these nuts using this excuse. The mother wanted to be viewed as a person and not as a baby factory.
Even in other groups, the shame they put on single men is crazy. Especially single men who haven't gone on a mission. Pushed into singles churches to constantly remind them that they're unworthy, etc.
It’s interesting because while so much sympathy is reserved for these girls (and rightfully so, of course!), you hardly ever hear about the male victims of this sickness!
I never thought on what happens to the “extras.” It definitely makes you look at things differently. And it explains some of the people I’ve known that left and why.
I was in the army with a lost Mormon n he was great. Short stout little dude strong as hell and had ur back no matter what. I’m sure the nickname is cliche but we started calling him the stormin Mormon cause he got to point he’d b first guy to jump into the fray no matter who was at fault. Great dude to have in the company. Never really considered why he ended up with us losers in Army but ur story here kinda brings that to the light. Damn, hope ol dude is good
Thats child abuse... thats so heartbreaking...
It's literally a cult and all of it is child abuse, for boys and girls.
100%. Indoctrinating children into almost any religion is child abuse. Telling a child that unless they do XYZ their souls will burn and be tortured for all of eternity (especially when XYZ isn’t even being a good person, it is just believing in that religion’s god) is child abuse. And don’t even get me started on the amount of children who have been exploited or worse through religion. What decent parents could ever expose their child to something like that… Truly heartbreaking.
Well, it's a cult, it's hardly surprising.
All of this is child abuse
@@GaiaJendaoh stop. Mormonism is a cult. Radical Christianity is freedom, peace, love, joy, kindness, and no polygamy in Jesus.
Every guy who wants polygamy thinks he’s going to be the one with all the wives, and not one of the boys left behind
Nothing a hatchet can't fix.
This is SO REAL....The equivalent of men who barely passed highschool and who have no life skills who go around calling themselves alphas to feel important.
The wild part is, it doesn't have to be like that - if you allow one woman to marry many men as well as allowing one man to marry many women, then the numbers have a chance of leveling out.
But that's never an option. It's never even mentioned as an option.
Except that’s not how literally any of this works in the real world, only in religious circles.
And in the real world, women can have multiple husbands and men can have multiple wives. Or women can have multiple wives and men can have multiple husbands. It evens out, but you don’t mention that because then you lose your grounds for policing other people’s relationships
@@The-one-and-only-Fruitcake”in the rest of the world”…polyandry is legal in maybe five countries.
i hadn't even considered how this system harms the men and not just women. thank you for speaking up about this.
Growing up, I knew about the fundamentalists, but never about that seedy, cruel side. This is eye-opening to me. Children are disposable trash to them, it seems.
Any system that singles out and harms one gender/ race/ religion/ identity harms everyone on a broad scale. Its just often harder to perceive how. Even the men in regular LDS are harmed, by harming the women. Half of their population is disempowered leading to trauma and toxicity, so the whole group is lessened.
Im not surprised.
Polygamy really hurts men as a group as much as women (possibly more) because of all the leftover (lower status) men. This is the reason that polygamy societies are usually more violent because marriage can have a “civilizing” effect on men. If you take away the possibility of ever having a wife and family from 90% of the male population, things are going to pop off.
Unfortunately, it appears to be the new normal. Every woman I might complains about "guys having five girlfriends" while every male is single. My female cousins content themselves with being some dude's "main" - all of this is atheist liberal America.
I was an illegitimate baby in the 50s--Idaho, no less. A sweet lady wanted to adopt baby girls, and everything seemed legit, until they discovered she was shopping in several hospitals. Turned out, she was trying to create a genepool of future wives for her community. Very happy my paperwork fell thru.
Every day I learn something more disturbing about Idaho. To be fair, there are sketchy religious communities in Spokane as well, it's such a strange place at times.
Yikes! So glad you escaped that fate!
Wtffff so glad you're ok
🤯🤯🤯 oh my gosh 😱
@@JulieEnsign holy crap at least you didn't end up in that sort of life. If she was looking for orphaned or unwanted baby girls to bring into and be raised by an FLDS community, she probably was aiming to diversify the gene pool as to avoid or at least decrease inbreeding, which causes its own set of problems for the children produced from it, look at the Hapsburgs or the ancient Egyptian royals.
oh a great example of how patriarchy isn't necessarily men vs women, but rather men vs men ... and women are the ball!
This is true. In fact, afaik this is the best way to view what patriarchy is: Men exploiting men, and women being reduced to prizes. Consider the question of autonomy and agency, two of the biggest things feminists are fighting for. Men who exploit other men see those exploited as having agency, which they are trying to force into terrible sets of choices. As for the women? Prizes don't have autonomy or agency...
Speaking as a man mulling over the issue without formal education in this matter myself, feel free to ignore me if it's wildly off the mark. But it does seem to explain a lot.
Historical polygamy is only one example of a patriarchal social convention, one that has largely been rejected for centuries, at least in European tradition. I would argue that modern polygamists are typically much more focused around women, outside of a minority of higher status men.
There are a lot of reasons patriarchal societies have largely been the norm, but matriarchy isn’t immune to tyranny either. It simply looks different.
@@DarkwarriorJnope, you nailed it.
@@TehKarmalizer matriarchy (as in, what we see in patriarchy, but reversed genders) has never existed, in our history. We are a male-dominant species.
There are a few isolated matriarchal cultures, mostly in Africa and the Himalayas. But their cruelty towards their own is limited by their size and the demands of the environments they live in, so they never got to become the groteque horror patriarchy is.
They are forced out so old men can prey on young girls sick
Exactly. The old men don’t want the competition of young, handsome men. So many things about these communities and how they function are sick, up to and including that they are finding many genetic issues due to the years of inbreeding.
Its a rare cult that is not obsessed with sex. Its the leader who is the most obsessed with carnal lust for himself. Pure evil. They are also the prime leaders of twisting the Bible to fit their perverted desires of the flesh.
stone age stuff LD$ FLDS RLDS
It's the same in Islam.
@@radagast7200
Well it is worst in islam, they can do MUTA which is form of "marriage" that lasts for "minimum" of 3days or however long the "contract" was.. legal prostitution in short.
Not to mention that this considerably increases the chance of inbreeding in a community when 10 women have children who are all siblings or half-siblings.
Oh it’s guaranteed and not seen as gross by them. There was a show called “escaping polygamy” (10/10 recommend) about these women who left the Kingston clan and are helping other people leave polygamy cults. One of them was courted by her uncle when she was 14, another married her cousin when she was 18 (if I remember correctly). There’s part of one episode where 2 of them are marking how many of their relatives have left and they literally point out how often one person is listed as a daughter on one paper but is then a wife on the next.
@emro164 You're talking about the same book where two girls got their dad drunk so they could get knocked up, right? And that's after everyone on Earth except for one family died.
@justincrowley8787 Lmfao the story of Noah's Ark cracks me up everytime. Somehow after the flood receded, that same family repopulated the entire earth without inbreeding, and same for the animals. But two of every animal? Why do we have different animals now? Why did Noah let everyone else die? But apparently it's a METAPHOR? Huh.??????
@@justincrowley8787 hell the same book where ALL of humanity came from 2 people, and then as someone else pointed out all of humanity except for 1 family was killed later on. According to the bible we are literally all related. As a kid the story of Adam and Eve grossed me out (didn’t put together Noah’s Ark until I was older) and my mom attempted to explain it away/make it okay by saying something along the lines of “it’s okay since it’s such a distant relation”
@@tabora_ and also, wtf did the lions eat, and how tf did Noah get all of the animals from all around the world? Like at minimum polar bears should have gone extinct. And actually thinking about it now what about all the sea/ocean creatures? Like I don’t think all of them would have necessarily gone extinct but things definitely would have gotten fucked up from that much flooding
One of my earliest memories of interacting with someone who had been from the mormon church was one of my aunt's students when i was maybe 7. He had been adopted at 13 years old bc his parents whipped him until he was unconscious simply because a friend at school had given him a sip of their drink and they didnt know he couldnt have caffeine and it was an energy drink. They were extremely apologetic and he told his friend "how could i possibly be mad at you for not having information that i wasnt born with. We all must learn in life." And he told his parents because he wanted to go to church extra to apologize for drinking it. They whipped him with several different things and then they left him on the side of the highway in florida. Semi unconsious and bloody in the late august heat. Shirtless. So he was severely sunburnt soon enough. He was picked up by a state trooper, his parents arrested for abandonment and abuse, and adopted by a jewish/catholic couple and he discovered a love for cafès when he worked at one when he was 16 and now he is 28 and just opened his own Cafè in the Keys. Named it PossibiliTeas.
Liar. Wasn't LDS.
This is certainly not a teaching of the LDS church, but unfortunately, no matter what church you look at, you will find a few people that get extremely authoritarian with their children about their religion. It very well could have happened, but as with all religions, you have to separate the church from its members sometimes.
What? Is the LDS church somehow immune from abusers? Good grief! @@WatchingwaitingG2D
@@winonaho You do realize what the FLDS is? Or do you just like being a two-faced liar?
@@WatchingwaitingG2D: Before you say "Wasn't LDS" may I remind you that both Ruby Franke and Jodi Hildebrandt are LDS and were in contact with LDS bishops &c.
One of the great things lost boys do is get people out of the cult. The amount of stories you hear about the brother's being a gateway between the cult and the outside world is amazing. So their own disgusting practices is destroying them.
Everything about that cult is abuse. It should be illegal. Cults like this are absolutely horrible.
All religion is horrible in how they indoctrinate the members.
It is illegal, but enforcement is sporadic and the closed nature of the cult makes proof difficult. Legally only one marriage exists and, so long as the sister wives are over the state’s age of consent and aren’t testifying, they just show up as unwed teen mothers. In fact it’s very common that plural wives draw Medicaid as single mothers living below the poverty line.
My brother in law is a lost boy. His sister was one of Warren Jeff’s many wives and she was essentially tortured. She’s come out sharing her experience but for privacy reasons I’m not sharing their names. The brother in law is one of the greatest guys I’ve ever met and while he was never granted a full education, he is extremely bright. He’s an amazing father and will be and amazing husband for my sister when he finally proposes.
What happened to him and his family is truly awful and I’m so happy the flds community is dying out as members scatter. I’ve been down to Colorado city a lot and it’s wild the world they live in. They look at outsiders with such distain, and the little girls wear heavy makeup and look the same as the older ones.
what is flds if you dont mind sharing?
My sister dated a nephew of Warren Jeffs, his brothers and dad were “lost boys”. He was born years after they were expelled. The stories his family told were harrowing.
@@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195 it’s the fundamentalist church of Latter Day Saints aka the polygamists in southern Utah
@@ciara8860It is a false church.
Sorry to say polygomy flds community is not dying out as you state. I start to wonder if it will ever die out. it spreads and makes more communities as they break off. if it still is going strong even in the 21st century who knows if it will ever die out.
The part that amazes me is that the government hasn’t gone in to investigate this as an assload of child abandonment charges
These kids have no birth certificate or social security number. The government doesn’t even know they exist.
The government very much knows these kids exist. The state of Utah supports these families. The children in polygamous families are on Medicaid. I would assume that they also receive food stamps if they qualify for Medicaid, but I don't know.
@@Hillary92126FLDS kids do have birth certificates and I believe SSN’s (I’m not sure about that one tho). Or at least they exist, whether a lost boy actually has his birth certificate is a different story.
They get government positions and influence laws and the police.
@@tammymccoy8971I think it depends on what compound. My aunt escaped a lesser known one as a teenager after she had a few kids and she invented a name and age because she had no records and didn't know what her birthday was anyway. She also didn't want to be found for obvious reasons.
This is also why certrain regions and faiths that venerate polygamy are constantly in wars started by older men, sending younger men off, and praise martyrdom for them. AND why they so heavily emphasis female conversion. Numbers game.
Too bad your brain cells are casualties of your vices. It must be the fault of certain regions, whatever that means puppet.
@@WatchingwaitingG2D?
Glad you said this, cause I was thinking that a ton of lost boys, hardened by work are an army. Just that in peace they are superfluous. 😮
I'm just not really sure this has been historically true, there's been lots of cultures that practiced polygamy across the globe and they've all done it a little differently.
Oh, this makes so much sense! Isn't it the standard for Muslim men to have 5 (edit: 4) wives (where allowed)? I know this is a side topic, but your comment clicked for me.
This explanation fills in a question I had while reading an old family book put together from diaries written back in the late 1800's about the "menfolk" armed to protect their daughters from being persuaded to run off to join the Mormon church whenever that church came through town.
No wonder these cults kept being chased off lands constantly, no one wanted their children even more so their daughters caught in this nightmare
I always wondered about this. Astounding that the "lucky" men who get to have a dozen wives don't have a problem with how their sons are thrown out.
The abandonment just amazes me. It's also why the military is filled with these kids
It's not just the fundamentalists. Mormons are disgusting when it comes to turning theri backs on their children. I experienced that myself back in 2001 when I came out as gay.
I was kicked out of the house three days later, and I knew many other young gay men like myself who were kicked out onto the street by our Mormon parents.
For all their family is forever branding, they don't stand by it
I was friends with a guy in the 1990s that was a lost boy. They transported them up to a labour camp in British Columbia, and he ended up having to escape in the middle of the night.
He was working under the table, since he had no legal status. His stories were terrifying, it's shameful that they're human trafficking like that. I think of him often and hope he's doing ok.
Liar.
@@WatchingwaitingG2D 😄 You're just butt hurt because your FLDS church practices human trafficking and you know it.
@@WatchingwaitingG2D Bro really thought he did something by just commenting liar under some thing he doesn’t like lmao
And that nothing is done about it, I'm sure they still have trafficking or slavery child labour camps.
@@teijaflink2226 FLDS braindead.
My auntie (not blood-heart family) is ex-Mormon. Her dad always used to say “good bulls sire cows” and was proud of having all daughters. _So. Many. Daughters._
Ew
Well...at least he caused no Lost Boys.
@@AGS363nah, he just produced daughters to be sold off as breeding stock to old men who won’t love them
@@AGS363No, just girls born into sexual abuse and exploitation. What kinda reasoning is that? It's fine that they abuse women because at least they don't let them leave?
Wow
It’s absolutely awful! I’ve read books written by girls who’ve escaped the FLDS. Heartbreaking books. They share about the lost boys being kicked out of the community by the older men. It’s sickening!!!
That is horrible!!! No wonder these poor guys have problems! They’ve been led to think they are not good enough! 😢😢
I owe a big "thank you" to you for the help your channel has given me in my decision to leave the church. I had only been in the church for a year and a half, but after viewing the info on your channel, I was about to do more research and made my decision. The next step for me was my endowment. I have to say, if I had ended up blindsided by that ceremony, I would have RUN, not walked, out of the temple.
Thanks again for your bravery in posting about these subjects! I was so well-informed, my president couldn't even argue with me. I have to say, he was very sweet. Again, many thanks!
In polygamous communities, a small minority of men benefit. Everyone else suffers. Patriarchy to the extreme
And that's the society we are moving towards with current dating norms.
@@jonathan2847 Yeah, no.
@@timotheataeyeah, yes
@@jonathan2847 It is nowadays not so much a competition which man a woman benefits most, but is a man more benefitting than staying single.
@karinsch3347 Becuase by staying single they are supported by the state (e.g. men who pay taxes) and dont have to show or give anything in return for this support. This is why a large state destroys society and why women vote for it, they vote for male slaves.
Historically, the answers are no better: polygamous societies were generally societies that practiced a lot of slavery and/or fought a lot of wars - to dispose of the "unneeded" men.
And bring in extra women
Wow, that's insane! I had never noticed the corelation!
It makes sense when the old Abraham's faiths were all waring in the m1ddl3 3ast. They were rife with polygamy and always plundering neighboring clans, cities, and peoples. Taking their women, animals, supplies, and killing the men or throwing them on the front line. 😢
the secular society works exactly the same
male-only draft is still a thing in the majority of the world and men are forced to live under the constant fear that women will start a war to get rid of them, like currently in Ukraine and Russia (Ukrainian women who fled to the West thanks to their female privilege mock the men who drowned in the Black Sea desperately trying to flee the draft on TikTok)
people think I'm crazy about a law that not currently in effect but I just don't want to die and both the current and historical practice shows that I'm in grave danger as an ugly man (I can't ignore the women who call for a genocide of e.g. short men on Twitter)
The Europeans are the most war-like and violent people in history and they banned Polygamy a thousand years ago. Polygamy is immoral but non polygamist societies aren't in any way more peaceful.
I’m glad you point this out. I’m not Mormon, but I was abused as a boy. Not only females are taken advantage of. I have made peace and have a great wife now.
I’m so sorry this happened to you. And good for you, figuring out how to make peace with it and how to make a different kind of life for yourself. Sending you my sincere respect and very best wishes for you and your wife.
@@lisafowler6278 Thanks.
FLDS are not Morons they are not part of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
I am so glad you found peace and have a wonderful wife. You are a strong person.
Everyone’s story is important
I greatly admire this young woman for speaking out with the knowledge of someone that has been inside of the absolute EVIL of the LDS cult whether or not they are a polygamous branch.
I live near Bountiful, their "Lost Boys" were a real issue in our local communities. Those poor kids had never lived on the outside of their culture, it must have been so scary for them.
I knew a couple lost boys and felt bad for them. I wanted to get to know them but unfortunately, I'm Native American and they were very racist so that didn't go far. 🤣
Honestly, it taught me a lot about being careful about the polygamists around Colorado City and the like.
their problem!!
Yeah they are totally brainwashed. Hope some of them manage to change for the better
When I was in the Army I met another Soldier with the last name Jeffs. He was a truck driver and was giving me a ride back to the barracks with some other Soldiers. I asked him if we had met before because his name was familiar, and he said, 'No, you probably recognize my name because of my father.' He had run away from his family a few years prior as a minor, went through a rough patch, and then joined the Army when he was 18. He was only 19 when I met him. I wish I knew where he was and how he was doing now. It seemed like the Army had really helped turn his life around.
Wow like warren jeffs
I hope the army gave him the brotherhood and community he needed. That had to be tough.
It’s really common for former cult members to join the military when they get out, especially men. And even more so if they were kicked out, rather than choosing to leave.
It can really help some people, but the similarities in any “high demand organization” can reinforce the harm done by their upbringing inside a cult. There’s someone who’s written some books about her experiences growing up in a cult and then joining the military, but I’m blanking on her name. The YT channel, From Cults to Consciousness, has interviewed her a few times, if anyone is interested. Fascinating life story and a really smart, insightful lady.
We really should provide much more help to people who are interested in leaving cults. If for no other reason, then because cults are dangerous to public health and safety.
Fear of suffering even more in the outside world is one of the main scare tactics used to maintain control. That and cutting anyone who leaves off completely so they can’t see their remaining family. If there was a proper social safety net, people would feel safer leaving.
When they’re kicked out and then have to adjust to the regular world without having actively wanted it, it can be even harder not to end up in a very bad place. The military can be the best option of what is currently available to pull themselves out of that again. But there really should be more options.
@@willowtdog6449 from what I understand there is help, there’s a bunch of different non profit organizations that have shelters, and help with basic things like furthering education, job placement, etc. I need to start donating to one of them. I do know that the chick that runs cults to consciousness knows the proper organization’s that help these people. The sad truth is if they don’t have a relative that already left manny times they have no way of knowing where the organizations are, etc.
It's really effed up when the army can help you more than your upbringing did. Says how disturbing some childhoods are.
Let's be honest, it's about 4550-year-old man trying to compete for the affections of 13-year-olds with 16-year-old boys. That's the math that don't work.
Exactly! The boot them out, because they don't want the competition and the sheep women have been brainwashed to believe that it's some other reason. Total BS and totally evil.
It's probably both lol, even without the age factor the math doesn't work, when you include the age thing, that just gives you a more specific picture of why specific people are kicked out as opposed to others
It's definitely part of it for sure. But there is a real math problem that if you're Warren Jeffs and need several dozen wives, you can't have dissatisfied men with no dating prospects and no wives sitting around potentially fomenting an uprising against you
Younger girls are crazy about older men - just look at all the fantasies about a powerful, wealthy older man out there it’s everywhere in women’s erotica and women’s romance. It’s the younger guys who can’t compete just check the sexlessness ratios.
i don't think they care much about affection
If the math doesn't add up, neither does the society.
I’m glad someone is pointing this fact out. Lost? Abandoned. Pushed out. Cruelly used. 😢
I dated a lost boy about 10 years back when I was 17. He was 20 at the time and behaved very immaturely. In my own immaturity I thought it was fun to sort of “teach him” about things like different pop culture stuff he had never heard of and we spent most of our time partying . I think after coming out of such a strict religious setting he was going wild with his freedom alittle. He had no concept of consent though too. Like he genuinely tried to rape me in a closet at a kickback in the same room where everyone was hanging out and his cousin who had been out for a long time opened the door and pulled me out after he heard me yelling. Wish I knew what happened to him, I realized he just thought that’s how the world works and it must’ve been hard being rejected and shunned and exiled by your family all alone trying to fend for yourself in a culture you don’t really recognize
There's this concept of helicopter kids at college. They grow up with such strict parents (helicopter parents lol) so once they get to college away from their parents, they don't know how to survive in the real world and just go crazy and party. Most of them come out of it and calm down as they learn life skills and experiences.
@@thatonedog819 oh yeah I’ve seen it so many times having grown up Mormon .
Thank god for that cousin. Sorry that happened to you. You have a lot of empathy ❤
Why do people make so many excuses for those who refuse to think?
@@Loralanthalas He was brainwashed. It takes maybe a few months to indoctrinate an emotionally unstable adult into a cult, imagine how easy it is to do it to a CHILD. Children learn nothing that they aren’t taught or don’t naturally learn. If he was taught that it’s okay to behave that way and was never around anyone who disapproved, how was he going to know it was wrong? I’m not saying he shouldn’t be accountable for the harm he could have caused, but you can’t pretend the context isn’t relevant.
When I was a run away drug addict at 15 I was in salt lake and met this 16 year old boy who’s family just abandoned him in front of a drop in center. He was so sweet. He ended up unaliving himself a few years later after he became a gay prostitute because he didn’t even have a birth certificate or ss number to get work with.
This made me cry. I hope he is in a restful place now
We need more stories like this so people can fully comprehend how horrible these things are. My heart goes out to that boy.
That's horrible. I can't imagine what kind of monster can do that to their own child. I hope you're doing better as well.
You are aware that this is NOT THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS . These groups are not the morman church. These groups are outlawed in most places. Yes they still exist but they are dying out. If the TV shows would be quiet they would die out sooner. Now there is a group call the Christian bible marriage which are mulit wives. Sadly these "marriages" are for sex only.
Oh my gosh, this really made me cry! How heart-breaking!
They don’t talk about this enough.
Who is they?
No one talks about that because those boys and men are FREE TO LEAVE, the women are KEPT AS PROPERTY. Get your priorities straight.
@@MaidenHelll who do you think? The community that perpetuates this behaviour, ofc.
It's nice to know that there is someone else in the church who thinks
this LDS thing is a cult. I'm 60 and I'm still screwed up.
I have never looked at a Mormon man and thought "cream of the crop"...
That's probably because by "cream of the crop" they mean boys that won't threaten the existing men and power structure.
I’m dating one, as a non Mormon, and he’s actually the most fantastic human I’ve ever met. Soooooo maybe that’s your loss?
Yeah. I didn't grow up polygamist Mormon, but as a teen I did start going to this teeny-tiny Christian "church" in the middle of nowhere that my sister's husband found online. They started giving the elders the authority to approve or reject marriages of the young people in the congregation based on how well they believed the young men could keep the women in line, and how "teachable" the young women were. I wasn't "teachable" enough, my husband wasn't authoritative enough & after some thinly veiled threats that if we got married we wouldn't see our families or friends still in the group again, we realized it was an obvious cult & left, but not without severe PTSD & harassment. It's been 9 years since either of us have seen our families bc both sides stayed, and the cult is still around. Last I heard, there were discussions about buying land & building a commune. It was one thing to leave the adults, but I still think about the children and I hope that one day when they're grown, maybe they'll remember we had the courage to leave, and that they can too...
What cult is that?
@@kylez8010 Evangelical Christian, but with more emphasis on church "government" and divorced from any established, recognized denomination. So, like... before they went out on their own, they used to be under the Presbyterian denomination & there's a broader governing body for that organization for the main purpose of decentralizing the power structure & ensuring there is recourse for congregants who feel their pastor is abusing his position. They intentionally removed themselves from any possible centure when people started leaving & accusing them of cult behavior, and reporting them to the Presbyterian headquarters. I was in attendance when they announced they would no longer be affiliated with the Presbyterian church, stating that they believed the organization had become too liberal. They aren't big enough at this point to be recognized soley by their church name, but it's called Trinity & it's based in Indiana 🤷♀️
FLDS are not Morons they are not part of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
@@lang1031 That's a whole can of worms that only current/former Mormons are going to argue about tbh and I don't have an opinion about it. I don't have a stake in that topic at all, which is why what I said was about me and my experience since that's what I can vouch for. I wish you well though ✌️
Not just an FLDS problem. Non religious sects do this also.
My parents had a real problem with organized religion, therefore, I was not forced nor expected to attend any particular church. We do consider ourselves Christians, but I am thankful every day that I wasn’t raised in that. I asked my dad about it once, and he said, “Well, we’ve taught you the basics, and tried not to indoctrinate you into any sect or cult. If you choose to join a congregation, it will be just that-your choice. Before you make any decisions, look around. Ask questions. Decide for yourself.”
Your parents are very intelligent and caring.
@@larissaasay6957 I realize how very fortunate I was to have them. They expected much, but they were there for me (and my extended family of cousins.) If something went wrong, they would help if they could.
@emilyevans6989 emotionally intelligent parents who let their kids choose?? 😮
OMG, this is horrendous. This is how incel, damaged men are created. As a mother of a son who is quiet and shy, I especially find this absolutely abhorrent. This is not following the teachings of Jesus or following any sectarian teachings of treating others as you would wish to be treated yourself. You are so brave. I love your channel.There are many toxic religions. If we all followed the golden rule regarding other people, animals and the environment, the world would be a much better place to live.
I would say it's more of the hypersexual men that are created from this, I think a lot of the incels are created because there's not really any fathers in their homes, as well as enabling mothers.
The vast majority of women never have empathy for men until they have a son.
It's more than this. Millions of women are voluntarily sharing the same men in the dating pool. They're literally denying many of the brightest and smartest men an opportunity for a relationship in favor of the opposite.
@@EpochUnlocked"Denying men the opportunity" lmfao, this explains all your previous comments. Women are not public resources. If women are refusing to date you, there is probably a reason, and looks are hardly it when you consider how unimportant people treat beauty standards in men.
@@EpochUnlockedThey're not denying them anything. No matter how bright or nice a man is, he's not entitled to an opportunity for a relationship with a woman.
Thank you so much for talking about all of these harsh realities. I grew up in St George, and only a few of us knew this reality. I appreciate all of your hard work. Being Ex Mormon myself, I feel the information should at least be public. That way people really know what they are getting into.
You are tearing down the Mormon Church single handedly. Kudos Social media works!
So child abuse, emotional neglect, and just pure isolation. I hate this with all the passion in my heart. Nobody deserves that.
All in the name of "God".
This actually makes the memoir Educated make so much more sense. I was so confused why it was so normalized for Tara's dad to overwork and disregard the health of his kids.
Had a guy in my high school who married a girl after they graduated - they were disowned because he won’t take more wifes
I lived with a man from a large polygamous family. And yes, because he wasn't devout they dropped him off in downtown Seattle at 15 and told him to figure it out. He had a lot of health issues and emotional problems.
Mormon style polygamy is literally just the hypergamy that incels were always freaking out about
About 15 years ago I saw Flora Jessop on an HBO doc. She brought the film crew to a mormon fundamentalist cemetery and so many of the grave markers (like most of them) were infant or newborn boys. I think she implied that it was shady. Not as if the mothers killed them but as if they didnt work as hard to keep the boys alive. Or that perhaps the men did do something to them. Do you know anything about this? It was a small desert cemetery and it was just so sad to see all those baby boys there thinking they must have been unwanted.
It could also be that most genetic disorders that are X linked will impact males a lot worse, so baby boys born with genetic defects are much less likely to survive. Diseases like haemophilia for example, which, if youre avoiding doctors, has a life expectancy of around 12, impact boys much more severely
@@emilybarclay8831 The odds of those disorders would increase with inbreeding, as well.
That’s so disgusting and disturbing it’s hard to believe it’s happening in America in 2023. I hope all these places get shut down. And their child brides are also saved as well as the young boys. Oh gah it breaks my heart.
Just actually had a human trafficking case blow open in Hildale because some guy was trying to convince people he was the new prophet and people gave him their daughters. He transported those poor girls in a horse trailer.
It's encouraged. You kidding?
@@jenaniper4040omg
Child marriage (and therefore child r*pe) is legal in many US states. How's that for disturbing.
@@cosmicmuffin322and there was one politician (I don’t remember his name or the state unfortunately) trying to lower the minimum age of marriage to 13, citing (roughly) “I know tons of people who have married 13 year olds, it all turned out great” 🤮
My mother in law (she left the church when she was 18 because she wanted to go to college) and to this day, the woman has to be convinced to go to an actual doctor. They all go to chiropractor!!! For medical treatment! Or they take a billion supplements. Does anyone know the origin of that? Is it because they fear that if someone goes to an actual doctor, they’re afraid they will be blinded with actual science?
Sounds about right. Taking any power away from "god" seems like a pretty good reason not to trust modern medicine/science.
@@philcriswell3540Quite frankly, after the last several years, not trusting the medical field seems like the smartest thing to do.
Be very wary about what you're told or prescribed by doctors and nurses. Check up on whether it makes sense or seems smart.
Hospitals across the nation were purposely using protocols that were killing patients to gain money from the government. That is not "first, do no harm". If they were willing to compromise like that on that issue, what are they doing on other issues- and not just the hospitals: the doctors and nurses who primarily took part knew that what they were doing was not helping the patients, and knew that, in most cases, it was actually causing harm and death, and they continued to toe the line that the hospital administration set for them instead of standing up for truth and right...
Often it is believing that God will heal all, and if you aren't healed, you aren't believing hard enough. Another part of it is that doctors are seen as part of the political left and aren't to be trusted
My sister is hard core fundamentalist Evangelical and her and her husband are like this to a degree. They will go to doctors as needed but every week I'm hearing about a new supplement or oil that will be life changing or have to cut this or that out of my diet because it's slow but certain death.
I've never said it but I'm not going to take scientific advice from someone who doesn't believe in evolution and who is still almost gleefully waiting for 1-2 billion people to keel over from va.xx poisoning.
And yeah, at least with Christians there is absolutely a link between some level of distrust around medicine and fundamentalism.
They believe God wants them to suffer and they must have done something wrong to be in pain . They believe mental illness learning disabilities are demon possession. My parents were in a cult and I went to a cult school.
Short Creek is still a no-go zone for the rest of us. Wonder if they're worried the women will run off
This shows how law enforcement is COMPLICIT in the rape of girls and abandonment of boys by sick old men. They are PART of the problem and WONT do anything about it.
The FLDS is cruel in ways I have never thought of. Thank you for speaking out
That documentary on Netflix called Keep Sweet, Pray and Obey talked about this subject… really heartbreaking stuff. I found a lot of relatable experiences in that documentary from my really conservative Christian upbringing.
Yeah it was definitely a percentage of how I grew up. I used to be so hurt at men and women constantly telling me to smile. And defer to the priesthood all around you.
When I lived in SLC I made friends with this homeless kid (maybe 18-19 y/o). I would invite him in on cold days, buy him mcdonald's, etc. When talking with him I found out he was born into an flds group and at some point he was dumped off with a group of guys in Northern UT. He had no ssn and could barely read. One day he was just gone. I still think about him from time to time.
This aspect of the Mormon Fundamentalist tradition breaks my heart. I couldn’t abandon them. No way.
I have seen this in my own community. Young men with no skills, no education, no hope simply thrown out on the streets and told to never come back. One young man I gave a ride when asked what his biggest ambition was told me “ I want to go to the homeless mission. In Spokane. I hear they feed you real good there. I would like to know what it feels like to have a full belly. Pa didn’t feed us boys real good.” I felt real bad for that boy. He was 16 years old.
I knew one of these boys growing up, it was my only exposure to the Mormon church until I was in my 30s. His mother basically hated him because it was a way to punish his father (she joined the church upon her divorce, when my friend was 10) and she made her son be the man, even making him work to pay all the rent for he, his mom, and 3 adult sisters at 15. At 17, she and the sisters moved out of the house and left him living there alone, now paying all the bills. I was horrified, wven as a teen. I even tried to make my parents adopt him. It was very sad.
That’s horrible. I already knew that not all boys would be able to have families when they grew up. I was aware that many of those particular men would leave the community. I didn’t realize that driving those boys and men out of the community and dumping them just any old place, like the side of the road, was so common. That’s not something that people outside of the faith & community hear about very much. What an awful system! You would think that they could stay and work for the community or something, instead of just kicking young men in their late teens out to fend for themselves! I cannot imagine the horror stories many of those men must have as they try to acclimate to the outside world. A world that, to them, might as well be outer space! They were likely told how “evil” everything and everyone is outside of the doors of the Mormon community. They simply would not have the life skills to cope. It would be a very steep learning curve, that’s for sure. I cannot imagine how terrified those young men must be when they are suddenly, unceremoniously dumped out into the unfamiliar & scary ….. away from everyone and every thing that they have ever known. It’s heartbreaking! 💔
This is a subject I think most people don't even think about. Sadly I am one. I only thought about how the girls don't have any choice in who they marry and sometimes being forced to marry someone old enough to be their grandfather!
I watched a thing on this, following some of the boys, all got into drugs and self harm, got sent to prison, just absolutely struggled in deep deep despair and suffering. Even having each other. They would find each other and live together and try to figure out this new world and it just.... It's horrific. It's child abuse. It's creating more prisoners and addicts. It's sick it needs to stop. Edit the documentary is called Sons of Perdition.
But we agree that they still have the same value after becoming addicts and prisoners... Right?🙁
@@JDdr86, of course they still have value, it’s just we need to focus on preventing the situations to begin with so that it’s not impossible to get treatment for it.
@@Andyatl2002 It is just that, concerningly often, in this types of discussions, I hear people talk about the already messed-up, grown up (physically, that is...) individuals, as if they didn't matter! Hell, sometimes they're even spoken about as if they were some kind of deformed abominations that, while pitiable, aren't really worth considering or investing effort in. Do you know what is truly an abhorrent, monstrous abomination? To talk about tormented human beings like that! So yes, I will express my concern about that kind of talk. Human worth is irrevocable, infinite ♾️, unmeasurable, irreplaceable, and it most definitely doesn't have an expiration date, even though some people seem to think that it expires at the ripe old age of 18... sometimes sooner than that...
Having dinner with younger people, I was asked about "polyamory" which is apparently the new term for many partners of both sexes. I related my surprise at seeing buffalo herds in Yellowstone. Expecting the usual ungulate grouping, I thought to see dominant bulls with harems. Instead the herd seemed to be completely paired up. Relating this to my son, he said, "How else do you expect herds of many thousands to get along?"
One reason why polygamy leads to poverty, oppression, crime, and war.
I don’t know how to ask the question, but I’m so glad you were able to answer it. That’s heartbreaking.
I'm speechless. I assumed young men were forced out of the community. I had no idea it was this brutal.
I had never considered this angle at all. Thank you for making this revealing content.
As a mother of a teenage son and daughter, this makes me sick to my very core. I live and watch all your videos but this clip has been the biggest gut punch. It's horrendous abuse and also very dangerous to society. My heart breaks for all those girls and boys. No wonder you and your lovely husband got your babies out. I'm so heartbroken for those poor children who weren't so lucky. 😢
Thank-you! For bringing light to this travesty and inhumanity. So many focus on the horrors the little girls face, but forget about these innocent boys and their unholy fate. How anyone can believe this is the work of a "loving" Heavenly Father, looking in from the outside (no indoctrination from birth), their mind is warped. Thanks again for reminding people about the innocent victims.
Man... That is pretty heartbreaking
Ive seen documentaries on those boys .. heart breaking. No child should be turned away from home for basically selfish reasons of the parents or in this case a religion .. thats probably my biggest problem with LDS .. i have 4 sons and 1 daughter ..I cant imagine her not having her brothers growing up .. shes grown now but back then .. i was in a cult for awhile lol. Got out with my kids
From discussions with my students, I was shocked at how many did not know that the normal human sex ratio is 1 to 1 at birth. I heard all sorts of guesses like 2 to 1 and 3 to 1 vigorously defended. Many took their immediate family distribution as the norm for the human race.
I was friends with a lost boy many years ago. He went on to start his own business and got married in the regular LDS church, but his story is heartbreaking. His family basically hates him. It's one of the many reasons why I think the FLDS church is one of the most evil organizations on the planet.
I would imagine that levels of obedience to authority figures is a huge factor in whether or not a kid ends up as a Lost Boy.
Thank you for sharing this. I never knew. How tragic!
Could you do more of a deep dive on this topic? It’s really interesting but also confusing.
What are you confused about? I’m not an expert but cults/religions are a special interest of mine and polygamy cults happen to be what I’ve researched the most, so maybe I can help.
@@greenbeantm1096probably what is confusing is she doesn’t make a clear delineation between FLDS (a small splinter group that practices polygamy) and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (the 17 million member church which doesn’t practice polygamy and hasn’t since 1890.)
Also why missions make so much sense. A lot of them don't come back and the problem solves itself.
FLDS don’t send kids on missions. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the religion that she used to be a part of, is the group that sends out missionaries and has not practiced polygamy since 1890. The boys who go on missions are sent out and return home to non-polygamous couples and families. The group she is talking about here is a relatively tiny splinter group.
Two different groups, the mainstream LDS church is the one that sends kids out on missions and are not polygamous. The FLDS are the polygamists and do not send missionaries
Alyssa you're bringing up so many important, mostly unthought of, points.
Thank you so very much for all you are opening to us.
Thank you for sharing all this information. This is absolutely heartbreaking..
I have had this thought a few times when it's generational. Thank you for speaking for the list boys.
Shocking, I’d never thought of that aspect. So cruel
I love the videos you make showing the horrible abuses that exist within the LDS Church. I am studying to become a Baptist minister this fall and I believe that you provide an excellent resource for demonstrating the misuses of organized religion in America. I pray that we can dismantle these harmful expressions and create something wholly true and compassionate. God bless you!
But you know this is the FLDS group, right. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints doesn’t condone polygamy.
@@briansmith8730but the regular LDS church isn't awesome either. I knew a young divorced female and her mom went to an LDS church. They kept sending old men to my friends House to propose. Not everyone is obsessed with getting married and having 20 kids
@@crismcdonough2804 yeah, I don’t believe that. Sorry.
The old guys in power want young brides, the young men become an obstacle that needs to be removed.
Thanks for standing up for the truth and placing facts on the table. Remembering scripture, "The stone rejected by the builders shall become the cornerstone of the church." Don't dump them; co-opt them.
In Chinese polygamy, the "lost boys" became eunuchs or joined the military while their sisters became wives and concubines. In the lower ranks of society, married men were considered lucky.
Wow. Thank you for sharing this. I'm a curious person and ask a lot of questions. I never thought to ask that question. My ignorance. I love it when I become a little less ignorant.
So in those communities there’s no shame. Leaving kids to fend for themselves. Wow y’all sound like the world
Yes; & for the boys that do get out they have trouble surviving too because they have to learn a whole new set of coping skills. I knew one briefly. Yes was so desperate to pay his bills, he repeatedly cheated me on services that he quoted me previously. I let him get away with it because he was about to lose almost everything. He was so nervous & scared you could see him shake. We all make mistakes sometimes & I could tell he would have rather been honest about it.
He got so confused I don't think he could think straight. Shortly after he moved away. I assume he's still trying to adjust & pull himself out of his past. May God have mercy on him.
An evil part of FLDS. Thanks for point this out.
If you think the LDS is all kinds of effed up just wait until you meet the FLDS. I used to jokingly make fun of the missionaries that were sent to Texas and tell them, “Good luck trying to recruit anyone now that Warren Jeffs ruined it for all of you!”
How could a mother allow her child to become a lost boy? I can’t comprehend not defending your child or protecting him.
I wouldn’t doubt many women want to, but they can’t. They don’t get the same power as their husbands or the religious leaders in how things are done. Heck, I’ve heard that by mere fact of being a boy a son will already have more voice in the house than his mother will.
This is the FLDS not the LDS. These are the same ones who still believe in blood atonement. If the men believe they are being wronged and being stripped of their god given rights, they will kill you. A mother and her infant daughter were both killed by these nuts using this excuse. The mother wanted to be viewed as a person and not as a baby factory.
Indoctrination
Even in other groups, the shame they put on single men is crazy. Especially single men who haven't gone on a mission. Pushed into singles churches to constantly remind them that they're unworthy, etc.
Disgusting that they do that to their own children. Such a sick society
How unbelievably harsh and unloving. This is criminal behavior, and they should all be prosecuted.
So true. I always want to say to them there is hope and they can have a purpose if they can figure out how to break the chains.
It’s interesting because while so much sympathy is reserved for these girls (and rightfully so, of course!), you hardly ever hear about the male victims of this sickness!
Thank you for this answer. I asked this in another one of your more recent videos. Seems the YT algorithm dug this one out for me.
I never thought on what happens to the “extras.” It definitely makes you look at things differently. And it explains some of the people I’ve known that left and why.
As if we needed more reasons to speak to the fact that polygamy is absurd and disgusting………
There is so much illegal crap that goes down with this cult.
These men need to be held accountable. Do they draw and quarter as punishment anymore????
They must hate it when they lose even 1 girl, but are happy when a boy wanders off
Yup, I recommend watching the show “escaping polygamy”
It's because the boys are often not wanted, mainly because the father sees them as competition, it's quite disgusting really.
Most get kicked out, left with no family and go out with no resources and no support.
Elissa Walls talks about this in her book, “Stolen Innocence.” So terribly sad.
I was in the army with a lost Mormon n he was great. Short stout little dude strong as hell and had ur back no matter what. I’m sure the nickname is cliche but we started calling him the stormin Mormon cause he got to point he’d b first guy to jump into the fray no matter who was at fault. Great dude to have in the company. Never really considered why he ended up with us losers in Army but ur story here kinda brings that to the light. Damn, hope ol dude is good