Distributing Skill Checks in Games

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  • Опубліковано 8 вер 2024
  • How do RPG teams distribute skill/background/whatever checks in games? Learn the secrets of this occult art in this video. Wow!

КОМЕНТАРІ • 89

  • @clone104d
    @clone104d Місяць тому +39

    0:01 Punished Sawyer can't hold back his Phantom Pain any longer

    • @charliebee5154
      @charliebee5154 26 днів тому +4

      There has to be a middle ground between a "happy-go-lucky greetings!!! " and a "getting my nose hair pulled greetings... ".

    • @DarthJarJar_542
      @DarthJarJar_542 26 днів тому +2

      Lmfao

  •  Місяць тому +98

    As a RPG player i love when skill checks are sometime used for a "surprise" branch (like lockpicking something that for once is not a door or a chest...) and/or you feel you've stumbled on this particular use case by accident and it's rewarded by a funny outcome or as a new side-technique. Even if it's not cRPG Zelda has very many good examples of this with items. In cRPG with active skills/spells i can think of Divinity's telekinesis or BG3/DnD's "wizard's hand". Those could be used more often with skill checks.

  • @metarenegade
    @metarenegade Місяць тому +27

    That last little addendum is solid gold advice. So obvious, yet I never thought of it.

    • @kotzpenner
      @kotzpenner Місяць тому +6

      combination of skills is severely underrated.I struggle to think of any game that does this, mostly it's just alternative checks (you can speak yourself out of trouble or use bartering to reduce a fine for example). Fallout does it sometimes (the dialogue with Lanius comes to mind) but there it's also several checks in a row, not a combination. And over reliance on a single skill is also implemented too much.

  • @michaelalem1349
    @michaelalem1349 22 дні тому +5

    keep reading the title as disturbing skill checks in games

  • @perrintommy1765
    @perrintommy1765 Місяць тому +38

    the man the myth the legend im always glad to see him still active

  • @celedhion
    @celedhion Місяць тому +25

    I'm subscribed for Sesame, but Josh's developer insight is always interesting, too

  • @KatalistProductionsKozzySasha
    @KatalistProductionsKozzySasha Місяць тому +7

    I love how yall did the start of Fallout New Vegas. Replayed it 9 times over the years and always appreciated how there was something for EVERY since skill.

  • @mrawesome5211
    @mrawesome5211 Місяць тому +2

    The transition of this bike showcase channel into game development has been truly inspirational. Thank you, Mr Sawyer.

  • @TheChaddisBack
    @TheChaddisBack Місяць тому +13

    If i had 50 million on my pocket, i would make it happen lol, Pillars 3 made by this guy.

  • @jazzyjswift
    @jazzyjswift Місяць тому +37

    Wow, fastest I've been to one of the GOATs of industry's videos.

  • @LAAV69
    @LAAV69 Місяць тому +3

    I like your comment on context. I actually enjoy the occasion skill check that's rarely used to the point of being questionable. Gives me a counterintuitively *Aha! I knew it would be useful!* feeling (as long as the payoff is good or something).

  • @alexanderkopaneff3551
    @alexanderkopaneff3551 Місяць тому +3

    I would’ve like to see a round table with classic RPG designers, discussing things)

  • @SeanKR
    @SeanKR Місяць тому +8

    Always appreciate and love these insights into the game development process!

  • @Thomas_Angelo
    @Thomas_Angelo Місяць тому +4

    The amount of thought that is put in RPG games amaze me. I'd never think devs actually thought about these things that deep in details.

  • @mikfhan
    @mikfhan 24 дні тому +2

    Combat versus non-combat skills might also want to come from separate investment pools, so taking non-combat skills will not impact how much you can invest in combat, etc. I still have PTSD from a Skyrim build frontloaded with mage/thief but no sneak or combat ability - level scaled bandits measuring non-combat skills as combat prowess, that was not a good time :D

    • @AdrianZakrzewski-t7o
      @AdrianZakrzewski-t7o 20 днів тому

      Having the same investment pool works well in games where player can for example have party members fulfiil combat roles. There's something funny about having 5 NPCs acting as bodyguards while your character can't even throw a punch correctly.

  • @burningsheep4473
    @burningsheep4473 Місяць тому +2

    I used to think that the amount of dialogue checks was what mattered the most, but in recent times I don't seem to care much for those relatively simple checks anymore. At least not if it's something obvious like being a priest or a dwarf. It can work (for me) when it's something unexpected like the Yenwood Blade check or one of the witches in Mask of the Betrayer recognizing my character's goddess. But generally - to be satisfying - it now seems important that it needs to have some interesting outcome. Either more involved dialogue or some gameplay difference.
    Simple can work I think, but there would need to be some kind of interplay. Think of the Baldur's Gate 1 characters: They were quite simple, but their voice lines and stats and how they got along with each other had a good amount of flavour/charm/character to it and created kind of a story, not so dissimilar from something like Icewind Dale.

  • @EasyGameEh
    @EasyGameEh Місяць тому +1

    i loved those one time unique scripted interactions in iwd2. meaning that it feels really nice when it's not just basic common blanket skill checks all over the place, but rather hand crafted much more focused or specific situations where you need somewhat more rare skill set instead of just high skill level. for example 3rd level for some perk or high strength but for a very specific class like priest of a certain god or something like that.

  • @87Julius
    @87Julius Місяць тому +10

    Looks like you're the only one rewarding anyone for their study in metaphysics. I mean I suppose metaphysics are a reward in themselves, but thanks anyway.

  • @alexanderabramov2719
    @alexanderabramov2719 Місяць тому +3

    Hello! That's a cool cat! Would love to see stuff like this from you on UA-cam more often, I can only assume the huge backlog of questions you have :)
    edit: Or actually, in case you would be interested in having new ones, what I personally found to be characteristic of games you worked on was that there were significantly more "factions" (or just non-aligned interests in case of Pentiment) than average. Do you have any tips on tangling them up correctly, apart from diligent tracking and a lot of writing?

  • @Ladle66
    @Ladle66 Місяць тому +3

    I love these kinds of vids.

  • @Eupolemos
    @Eupolemos Місяць тому

    Truly love these hands-on videos - thank you

  • @TennessseTimmy
    @TennessseTimmy Місяць тому

    If the project gets big, tools like that will come in handy!

  • @SlyFoxFo
    @SlyFoxFo Місяць тому +1

    I've played F:NV since release and it's been my fav Fallout game since then.
    I learned about you and Chris (can he come back to the limelight already? we miss him) during the PoE Kickstarter and have valued your I/O since then.
    Recently, I've become a fan of Tim Cain as well, with his awesomely insightful videos he's been posting.
    I would like to ask, have you considered making similar videos where you share industry insights and answer questions? Would it even fit your schedule?
    Thank you for your work

  • @FUBARguy107
    @FUBARguy107 Місяць тому

    My favorite was when the geckos or the coyotes with rattlesnake parts would take off running after some damage... and they'd run toward a large hill... and they'd clip through it and keep going until they suddenly launched 1000 feet into the air only to come crashing down in some random spot. It just works

  • @morkmon
    @morkmon Місяць тому

    love these insights into game design, thank you for sharing them

  • @benhickson6149
    @benhickson6149 Місяць тому +1

    Gold from the G.O.A.T and a topic that I find was new vegas strength, please tell us more about the skill checks!

  • @MattMongostomp
    @MattMongostomp 11 днів тому

    That shirt is awesome.

  • @abigfavourentertainment
    @abigfavourentertainment Місяць тому

    I love the description 😂 Thanks for the video ❤

  • @chief9mm822
    @chief9mm822 Місяць тому

    Love listening to you and Tim Caines vids ❤

  • @dudeglove
    @dudeglove Місяць тому +2

    2:05 Sesame tyme ❤

  • @sulemanmalik8228
    @sulemanmalik8228 Місяць тому +1

    Hello Mr. Sawyer. I love watching your gaming streams, but don´t always get the opportunity see them live because I live in EU . So is it possible you could post them here on this channel? Anyway, I hope you´ll be doing some gaming streams soon, peace.

  • @brycejohansen7114
    @brycejohansen7114 Місяць тому

    What a brilliantly asked question

  • @kreiger0
    @kreiger0 Місяць тому

    Fabulous thank you Mr.Josh

  • @Turnoutburndown
    @Turnoutburndown Місяць тому

    Thank God the cat showed up on camera at the end!

  • @CommieApe
    @CommieApe Місяць тому

    Hell yeah so excited to see this.

  • @josephisafan
    @josephisafan Місяць тому

    oh baby its beloved game developer josh sawyer giving free content to the masses

  • @buhlake3391
    @buhlake3391 Місяць тому

    You're the goat Josh!

  • @austinhearn6111
    @austinhearn6111 Місяць тому

    Awesome video, If you’re reading this have a nice day

  • @kite2036
    @kite2036 17 днів тому

    5:00
    >speech pov

  • @chickennuggetswithbbqsauce3105
    @chickennuggetswithbbqsauce3105 25 днів тому +1

    There are skill checks in Ghost Town Gunfight like medicine, explosives and barter, but I can't seem to find checks for other skills like energy weapons and survival. Am i missing something?

    • @screenaimless
      @screenaimless 21 день тому

      1:25 "every skill that you could take would be rewarded within Ghost Town Gunfight and in the area."
      I don't have the game or a wiki in front of me, but it would seem that Sawyer is referring to the spread of checks across the opening Goodsprings section, not just those within the quest.

  • @Peldinx
    @Peldinx Місяць тому

    Topic brings to mind swimming and poison resistance skills in Deus Ex, for those builds that are going to go swimming among medusae :'D

  • @chrisc5611
    @chrisc5611 Місяць тому

    Sesame passed the persuasion check

  • @jamesdavies719
    @jamesdavies719 25 днів тому

    Josh, your shirt sir. Where can I get one?

  • @MrTriqks
    @MrTriqks Місяць тому

    I had one of the wierdesr interactions on new vegas. Idk if it was intended or not, but love the game none the less. I saved before a skill check, speech i think, right before i leveled up and tried it by putting more points into speech but it then took the option away when i had what it required. Were some speech options supposed to be there but you could never achieve it type of thing?

  • @odintheprole6068
    @odintheprole6068 Місяць тому

    THE RETURN OF TH EKING

  • @Tetragramz
    @Tetragramz Місяць тому

    thanks.

  • @MultiYoshiman
    @MultiYoshiman Місяць тому

    I LOVE U MR SAWYER!!!

  • @aaronh9653
    @aaronh9653 25 днів тому

    Off topic, but what mic setup are you using?

  • @1sweetree
    @1sweetree Місяць тому

    WWOOOOOOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you.

  • @Mojaveknight17
    @Mojaveknight17 Місяць тому

    2x skills points after Goodsprings ❤

  • @MrGuille176
    @MrGuille176 Місяць тому

    Greetings from an RPG lover from Argentina!

  • @TheKastyl
    @TheKastyl Місяць тому +3

    would you consider adding a sort of 'joke' option to defeat a final encounter in a game with an unconventional skill check, such as beating the boss in cards with maxed out gambling skill?

    • @braydoxastora5584
      @braydoxastora5584 Місяць тому +2

      Have you played Fallout Frontier? If you have wild wasteland you fight the end boss in a game of caravan

  • @lordcoltrane5630
    @lordcoltrane5630 Місяць тому

    new JSawyer drop?

  • @jameshughes3014
    @jameshughes3014 Місяць тому

    hey this is off topic but.. did you license your voice to an ai company. there's one that offers ai voice overs that i swear are your voice. its called 'expert' on artlist. but maybe i'm just hearing things. in the commercial they play on here it sounds much more like you.

  • @JetConvoy
    @JetConvoy Місяць тому +2

    Josh, please make Pillars Of Eternity 3! We’re begging you!

  • @Mr_Sup3rnova
    @Mr_Sup3rnova Місяць тому

    Where’s the ( red eye meme ) 💥💥 ?

  • @magikarpg
    @magikarpg 22 дні тому

    cat!!

  • @MoonyB
    @MoonyB Місяць тому +2

    Read as "Disturbing skill checks in games" which would also be an awesome video

  • @charlesdexterward7781
    @charlesdexterward7781 Місяць тому

    @2:03 Cat rolls for Sneak... fails. Cat uses bonus action to roll for Charm Person... success!

  • @lorddervish212quinterosara6
    @lorddervish212quinterosara6 Місяць тому

    Kitty

  • @Gregorovitch144
    @Gregorovitch144 Місяць тому

    So when is someone gonna give you $120m to make PoE3, Josh? 🙏

  • @bigtastyben5119
    @bigtastyben5119 Місяць тому +1

    Josh wearing clear lens aviators like it's 1989 😭

  • @chlve
    @chlve Місяць тому +1

    Hi Josh

  • @Artlas1
    @Artlas1 Місяць тому

    from 2:08 onward i got really distracted by something, uh weird

  • @gamexpert510
    @gamexpert510 Місяць тому

    Greetings.

  • @rykehuss3435
    @rykehuss3435 Місяць тому +8

    Personally I hate the kind of DnD system where its like "roll a dice and have 60% chance of succeeding this check even though youre the specialist". Like it can work in tabletop, because the DM can change the narrative on the fly to make it more enjoyable for everyone. But it doesnt work in video games. Thats why BG3 added Inspiration points, to make it easier to save scum. There's literally no reason to lose a skill check or ability check roll in BG3 so if you fail you just use inspiration or reload. That is bad game design, period.
    I prefer a system like in Fallout games, where its like "ok do you have this level of speech? if you do, you get this option that will succeed". So specialists will pretty much always succeed in their skill checks, and there's no need to save scum. Much more enjoyable that way.
    DnD seriously needs to die from computer games, its an incredibly archaic system with so many flaws (dont even get me started on the AC garbage). Pathfinder atleast has stuff like flat dmg reductions etc which make more sense for armor. So to sum it up, its not really about where you distribute them, but how you build the system up. No matter what you do, what system you use, you gotta be able to have good empathy skills meaning youre able to get outside your own biased self and understand and feel how this system or design would feel for other people.

    • @jazzyjswift
      @jazzyjswift Місяць тому +3

      I think NV's system combined with a percentage chance would be an interesting alternative as well. Like, if you surpass a threshold, it's a guaranteed success, but if you are below that threshold, it's a percentage chance. Would give more reasons to use the "failed" skill dialogue options other than funny dialogue. Alternatively, having multiple tiers of passes could also work, whereas surpassing the skill threshold gives you a full success with no drawbacks, but below that threshold you have a percentage chance of a partial success with an added drawback or just a full failure state for the check. Would definitely make it more interesting and dynamic for all builds to be more versatile when approaching any given check.

    • @rykehuss3435
      @rykehuss3435 Місяць тому

      @@jazzyjswift Good thoughts for sure, appreciate it. I think the main thing is that players will save scum. They dont want to lose access to content they paid for, not just with money, but with their time and energy too.
      Especially if theyre the specialist character. Would you accept a failed lockpicking roll if your character was the thief specialist. Probably not, you'd just reload to get another roll to get access to the content.
      This is wasted time and energy and motivation of the player. So it should not be a thing in computer games. A specialist should always have access to the things he specializes in, thats part of the fantasy.
      Then during the playthrough, present the player with other options he is not privy to, that make him think "damn next character I'm gonna roll is definitely gonna check that out"
      Thats how you get replayability. No other CRPG does this better than Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous with its mythic paths. Yes I know Owlcat didnt invent the system. The mythic paths however work perfectly with computer game systems, I played through that game 6 times because of the incredible build diversity.

    • @powerfulghost
      @powerfulghost Місяць тому +1

      Although I generally agree with your assessment, I think there is still space for probability-based checks in RPGs. You state that these can only work in tabletop "because the DM can change the narrative on the fly to make it more enjoyable for everyone." What precludes designers from designing fail states that are as interesting as success? For example, I never felt the need to save scum in Disco Elysium because every failure felt like it contributed to the story, and because the probabilistic nature reinforced narrative themes: you can be the best and still fail. That's life.

    • @daStig177
      @daStig177 Місяць тому +1

      The DND system works because tabletop RPGs are fail forwards systems, and the best DMs reward and encourage that type of behavior. It doesn't need to "die", it just needs to be adapted. Computer RPGs, tend to lean on "favorable or unfavorable" solutions because it's more feasible to accommodate in terms of writing and programming.
      The player character in a tabletop system also most likely does not know the DC for a success. New Vegas' system, while I do enjoy it, is still flawed because it shows you what you could do if you had just a few more points in a skill, which while it does incentivize item use, it also requires the player to reloading and use consumables to boost skill points, disincentivizing a more natural style of play. While it would be less successful in making players feel rewarded (possibly XP could tick with skill successes during conversations to show that the character is being rewarded for their build), I think dialogue options that would result in a successful skillcheck should be more camouflaged in a game so it doesn't get in the way of roleplay. It should be up to your character to decide if they need to use consumables based on the importance of an upcoming conversation.
      Ideally, the end result of a conversation should align with your build's abilities and character's alignments. It'd require playtesting, but if my character was appropriately rewarded and punished for talking to peers / engaging in the Dunning Kruger effect, I'd feel satisfied. It'd be tricky to accomodate, but fun to see patience levels represented in characters encountered in computer RPGs, where knowledgable NPCs could detect BS and want nothing to do with you. The more generic speech skill could be of more utility to allow your character to get places by just asking the right questions without incriminating themselves as a non-expert.

    • @kingplunger6033
      @kingplunger6033 Місяць тому

      ​@rykehuss3435 I don't agree with your statement about "content that you paid for". In a good RPG not succeeding in something should just mean doing something different and not losing access to things without alternative. Sometimes it can make you do something different that could actually be really cool. I do agree with one of the other comments: As an expert you shouldn't fail in specific tasks, meaning e.g. if you have 50 in a skill from 0-100 and get skill checks with difficulty below 30 or so, those checks shouldn't be a problem. I guess it comes down to perspective: I want to grant characters who are only semi proficient at least some chance to succeed instead of blocking that option completely, whereas proficient characters shouldn't need luck. You want to make it only possible for those and guarantee it. I think my preference gives you more freedom and if you savescum a 10% success check, the problem sits infront of the screen...

  • @Lacermonia
    @Lacermonia Місяць тому +1

    hey rope kid when is Fallout 3 coming out?

  • @chickenfingers991
    @chickenfingers991 Місяць тому +1

    hi :)

  • @Blewpa.
    @Blewpa. Місяць тому

    Thanks god, maybe next time eat 100 pounds of cheese curds

  • @Beto.oliveira96
    @Beto.oliveira96 Місяць тому

    Random coment: Josh, why not create a Pillars 3 in Pixel art style? Something like Trails in the Sky series, Chrono Trigger, old Final Fantasy games, but all mixed with CRPG elements? Would be more cheap but not least pretty. With big focus in Gameplay, Dialogue and big maps and cities. Nowdays every fucking company focus so much in graphics and make empty games... Pixel art is the way!

    • @williamclapp9694
      @williamclapp9694 Місяць тому +3

      Pixel art is not more cheap to make. They are more cheap to run and the only thing that could run on those older systems. Drawn art, such as pixel art, has the drawback of needing to have multiple sprites made if you want to have another angle of something. Drawn art that is not pixel art has the upside that they might be able to use 2D rigs for animation, which would look really weird if used with pixel art. That means each frame of an animation would need to be individually made if one uses a pixel art style. The reason for a lot of indie games using pixel art is because of the low skill floor pixel art requires. The graphics of AAA games are not the cause of empty games, since they have different people working on gameplay and art, which is true for indie studios as well. The good indie games are good because they wanted to make a good game. The AAA games are bland because they want to make large amounts of profit, which doesn't require making a good game.

    • @Beto.oliveira96
      @Beto.oliveira96 Місяць тому

      Yep, but nowdays in my head graphics = profit because graphics and marketing automatcly sell games. Some dumb public with FOMO syndrome just look at graphics of future release game trailer and say "yes i have to play this", and when they play they see all the problems of the game and that all was a lie. So most part of the company's realise that and use this in they advantage, focusing all work only on the external part of the game for just garanting selling. All mechanics are always a Ctrl C + Ctrl V and creativity is left aside in favor of profit. Of course, there are very good company as Obsidian, Larian, Rockstar, etc, but they are exception.

  • @gosling_choked_floyd_POG
    @gosling_choked_floyd_POG Місяць тому

    That's a very cool video! How about distributing your game designer skills in creating Fallout New Vegas sequel?

  • @yourdagan
    @yourdagan Місяць тому

    If the ideal is for every check opportunity to have a particular skill checked, then you can see naturally that you want each skill to be checked as often as possible, if not every time (which, of course, is impractical).
    If a player can look at a situation and wonder why their skill, which should be relevant, is not available for a check, then that's a problem. It can be easy for the designer to overlook such opportunities, however. Perhaps it's worthwhile to ask yourself "How would I be disappointing or letting down a particular skill-invested player here by *not* including a check for their skill?" Because as he's saying here, it's all about how players are going to perceive the game---there's not necessarily an objective formula for doing it "the right way". Player feedback can be unpredictable, so just try to consistently do right by them as best you can.