Why Would Anyone Fight For The Galactic Empire?
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- Опубліковано 12 вер 2024
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In many universes, authoritarian regimes demand loyalty from their citizens and service members. On this episode of Incoming, we ask why the Galactic Empire was so appealing to so many nameless Stormtroopers and why none of them seem to be good people
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I'm fortified in my evil morals
Nope 100% rebel here
starwars sucks now!!!
in hindsight the galaxy under the empire was better of than it is now under the new republic. the empire could defend it's planets and people, stopped crime and had an economy that worked. under the new republic the galaxy is splintered, is incapable of defending itself from outside forces, terrorised by an even more extremest group than the empire called the first order. oh the economy sucks as well. the emperor might have been bad but at least he kept the hover trains on time.
we also have to remember that the empire was large and for most people it would be another day for them, we as fans see all the dark bits of the empire and the fighting the average civilian did not.
r/theempiredidnothingwrong
The Star Wars book Lost Stars gives an excellent story of the perspective from the average Imperial. I highly recommend it, especially as a first read for those who've never read a SW novel before :)
Hey buddy, plz do a vid about the Jedi who became a king...
Robin McCormack hold up what?!?
I loved Lost Stars!
sup
Legends also went into a lot of detail, particularly with the character of Janek Sunber.
"I encounter civilians like you all the time. You believe the Empire is continually plotting to do harm. Let me tell you, your view of the Empire is far too dramatic. The Empire is a government. It keeps billions of beings fed and clothed. Day after day, year after year, on thousands of worlds, people live their lives under Imperial rule without seeing a stormtrooper or hearing a TIE fighter scream overhead." - Grand Admiral Mitth'raw'nuruodo
The empire is CLEARY more efficient than the millennia lasting, “inefficient,” old republic. After all, we lasted 24 years and had the ILLUSION of a more stable government, that also routinely committed genocide against entire species, blew up planets for resisting our rule, hated women for some reason, and got beaten by a rebel killing their only leader compared to the old, “inefficient government,” being taken down from the inside by A SITH LORD WHO WAS THE SENATOR, CONTROLLED THE ENTIRE CLONE ARMY, as well as GENOCIDING THE JEDI ORDER!! Uh, I mean, DEATH TO THE REBEL AND XENOS SCUM!!!😡
@@AAZ-yu5ss ok, rebell fanboy.
@@Etzelsschizo He's arguing in favor of the Empire, tho
@@thechangamire3495 he's not
There's the flip side of this, of the Rebel Officer who was a blood thirsty mass murderer, who joined the Alliance because it gave him ample opportunities for violence and despite their noble intentions, the Alliance accepted individuals like this, because they were desperate and took anyone who could fight and hated the empire. They'd ring their hands and shake their heads, claiming to find such men deplorable, but would still employ them as long as they were useful to the cause.
@@louisduarte8763 Saw Guerra: Before he was an important character in Rouge One he was a character that appeared in a few episodes of Clone Wars and Rebels.
Yeah and in Return of the Jedi Luke tried to get Jabba a galactic mob boss of a criminal empire to join the Rebel Alliance. I mean honestly the Empire maybe oppressive but their goal is to bring order to the galaxy while the rebels are willing to consort with crime lords to bring them down.
@@barbiquearea When did he tried to get Jabba join the Rebellion?I watched this movie a hundred times but I can not remember him doing that.
@@marcuskurze9759 If I remember correctly when Luke was confronting Jabba in his throne room after Leia's failed attempt to bust Han out, facing off Jabba he attempted to negotiate the release of his friends which included helping the rebellion's cause and getting something in return. Its been a while since a seen the movie I'm sure that's what happened during their encounter.
@ddam1320 Yeah, I think you're right. Luke wasn't trying to recruit Jabba. Also, the Empire dealt with slavers and human traffickers all the time. They used pirates to get to areas that were too narrow and out of the way for the empire to reach, and they used slavers to not only subdue poorer planets and continue to make them live under klepto feudal hell, but also relied on the pirates and slavers for, well, slaves.
In the 70s Marvel comics of Star Wars, Luke and his crew would often break their teeth in (IE lvl up/grind) on pirates. The Rebel Alliance wasn't above hiring privateers, it's true, but they had a much higher standard than the empire. They would hire pirates who wanted to redeem themselves, as long as they weren't guilty of murder or slavery.
Since the Empire had an unspoken alliance with the pirates and mafia types it had spared, it had more access to the criminal element of the galaxy than the Alliance. The Alliance may have gotten a few han solos, but for every Han Solo the Alliance had, the Empire had like 50 Jabbas (it initially cracked down on some cartels to look good, but after a while realized that slavers and pirates were already well trained assassins that kept parts of wild space under control, so instead the empire often just made deals with them).
I also think the Alliance to Restore the Republic of the Rogue One/Rebels era was still in it's embryonic stage, and was a bit more morally gray. However, once the Alliance started showing that it could win, and the Empire showed it's true face with the destruction of Alderaan, I think that the Alliance started attracting a larger following of more idealistic people. This would give the Alliance not only the numbers to afford to be more idealistic, but also the type of people more likely to promote idealism and chivalry.
At this point those joining the Empire would be in ignorance of what happened, in denial/cognitive dissonance, or accept such actions and would go sour as their compromise of deep convictions would poison their soul or deaden their minds. The Empire focused on recruiting people at this point, but now it conscripted people and rushed them through demoralizing and in adequate training because it's true face had been revealed. In Legends this is also when they would pump out the occasional handful of flash clones.
That's the thing of civil wars. Remember the scene of the ambush in the market of Jedha in Rogue One? Imagine the colateral damage those actions could cause. For an innocent person that was passing by, the imperials were just making their way through a crowded market, doing their thing and bothering no one, when the rebels attacked with indiscriminate fire and explosives. I find perfectly reasonable that anyone suffering that, specially if he or she loses a loved one in the attack, could become a staunch anti-rebel and join the stormtroopers with the sincere desire to prevent that from happening again. Under that light, the atrocities committed by the empire could seem like a necessary evil to restore order in a galaxy that was still recovering from the devastating effects of the Clone Wars
True, but as far as Jedha residents are concerned, it didn't matter after the next day. …
I mean, that’s true, but I still don’t think that really justifies the Empire’s warcrimes (I.e., destroying Alderaan).
Nobody was saying that their crimes were justified, just how it's possible for the average Imperial citizen to actually support the Empire and want to defeat the rebels.@@franzsanders9573
If the US could nuke Hiroshima and get away with it why can't the Empire get away with Alderaan?
Because nuking Hiroshima was a valid reason to bring an end to a brutal war. Look up Operation Downfall and Operation Ketsugō. Those plans where horrifying.
Alderaan WAS a war crime. Alderaan was seemingly loyal to the Empire and was destroyed anyway.
The expanded universe showed that the Empire controlled the media, and heavily censored stories, so the average imperial citizen saw the Empire as peacekeepers. Most of the core worlds had very little crime, so people felt safer, and whenever normal troopers were sent to put down dissidents, they were always told they were fighting insurgents or terrorists. Most citizens loved the empire, hence why the rebellion was so small pre battle of yavin.
Makes sense..
@@hushpuppy1735 As dies a lot in the EU, unlike the Disney "Canon"......
I mean a lot of Rebel officers and even more than a few troopers were ex-Imperials.
Which is why the "All Imperial Officers are war criminals"-Republican Order makes No Sense.
Hell, one of the Fan favourites, Gillad Paelleon, served the Empire to the end.
And He did transform the Imperial Remnant.
The reason for all these cookie-cutter stories is Disney Lucasfilm's Lack of creativity and Talent.
Sometimes it's not even propoganda. In Star Wars: TIE Fighter, the second campaign is a peacekeeping mission against two hostile parties that are fully willing to genocide each other. Eventually they both turn against the intruder of their Xenocidal feud, and the Empire crushes both, returning the status quo, and establishing peace. Btw both sides were supplied by Rebels.
To quote one of the best narrations I’ve ever heard:
“No one ever complained about the cold on Hoth. We never felt it. Even though we were blinded by blizzards, we could see the final end of the Rebellion in our blaster sights. Was it only a mirage? Perhaps. But on that day, on that planet, our blood ran hot with dreams of victory, melting the ice that stood in our way.
As the Rebels fled, the 501st gathered around a burning bunker and let out a cheer that shook the stars. The Rebellion was done, the Death Star was being rebuilt, bigger than ever. Order had finally returned to the Galaxy, in no small part due to the efforts of the fighting men of the 501st.” - “Our finest hour” from the 501st journal. Star Wars Battlefront 2 (2005).
The second paragraph gave me chills when I first played
chills man
Then 1 year passed and the rebels destroyed the Death Star 2 killed Palpatine and destroyed much of the imperial fleet and fragmented the empire with the rebel alliance poised to retake the galaxy under a new republic. Good job.
@@stormlancer6929 it was 4 years between Episode 4 & episode 5 IIRC.
"Why would anyone fight for the Galactic Empire?"
*It's treason, then.*
BRAAAGHH!! - Palpatine attacks with twirl move
Is this the Star Wars variant of 'here-sy' comments?
@@jakespacepiratee3740 Pretty much.
Service guarantees citizenship! *Would you like to know more?*
Technically, it's sedition.
That's pretty dangerous talk, citizen.
*It might be considered treason.*
Don't worry the ISB has been investigating them for some time now
It’s treason then.
hello there.
General Kenobi!
@@ryland3738 ISB?
*Thrawn: Alliances* does a good job of this. Thrawn's underlings, and even Vader's soldiers get a lot of decent character moments and humanization. Vader's number one soldier even gets a moment where he has to take off his helmet to convince the children that he's rescuing that he's not going to hurt them. It's really fascinating, the way Timothy Zahn goes into the little details like that in ways that just feel...real.
A lot of folks have recommended Timothy Zahn, I started Thrawn but never finished it. Maybe I'll give it another shot. - Marc
@@TemplinInstitute I admit I had a hard time with how literally everything has gobs of detail, but if you want a good story from an Imperial point of view, I'm not sure how many other places there are to look. That'd be something to ask Alex for Star Wars Explained about. He's the one who got me interested in *Thrawn: Alliances* in the first place.
Better than anything Disney had been about to make.
this is exactly why battlefronts campaign was a mess.They promised a campaign from the perspective of the empire and failed to deliver. Instead we got an other soft hearted weakling who was too dumb to see what was right in front of her for years who suddenly turned traitor, again...The Original games did even this better because there you were told the story from the 501st side. And you keept their loyal view for the entire duration.
Have you ever seen a playthrough of soulnomad? This is one of the few games that does a evil route right.
This is why I love SWTOR so much. The Imperial storylines are amazing for having the choice to be as evil or altruistic as you want while also still being as loyal to the Empire as you want (even if its not THE Empire). In particular the Agent storyline was so good for me that I ended liking the Empire even MORE, context and baggage included. A bit ranty of me but if you feel starved for Imperial perspective (like I was) I can't recommend that enough.
Oh! Also while I'm here I highly recommending watching I.M.P.S The Relentless if any of you haven't already, absolutely great series of fan-film documentaries unapologetically from the view of Imperial military. They're all up on youtube too!
*FOR OUR BROTHERS!*
Perhaps the earliest Legends example I know of is the pilot Maarek Stele, protagonists of the old "simulation" game TIE Fighter and its expansions, who continues serving the Empire through the civil war and with the Imperial Remnant afterwards.
Alex Hughes
If I had to put a phrase on what I suspect it’s about: Being more afraid of parents as-opposed to reviewers, for fear of damaging word-of-mouth criticism impacting sales to kids & youths. Since many still consider video games more-akin to toys or kids’ cartoons than “serious” art or literature, if the devs include a campaign/“storyline” choice for the player to be “bad” in the ways the Galactic Empire was bad, they can possibly get more-progressive parents to refuse to buy their kids the game because of worries it’s somehow “glorifying militarism, racial/species/&c discrimination, and general tyranny.” More parents than we’d like there to be just can’t have their little, impressionable kid get their gaming rush by enforcing a more-than-vaguely fascist dictatorship; not even in fiction, would go the (faulty but all too common) reasoning. I seem to recall some World War II games years ago refused to give campaigns to the Germans, Japanese, and/or USSR for basically that line of “thinking.”
Meanwhile the devs can get equally-slammed as well by more-conservative parents as well; just for different reasons. Despite the Galactic Empire’s “bringing Order to a chaotic Galaxy” schtick, law-and-order concerned parents who know their Star Wars lore could easily fault the whole game for “glorifying” both a government that first subverted (Palpatine’s takeover in Episodes II-III) and eventually abolished (dissolving the Senate in Episode IV) it’s own constitution, and the rebels fighting against it, essentially making a “Neither side here cares about Law or Tradition; just getting what they want!” argument. I doubt it would be common, but where the case it would likely be because they just don’t want their kids exposed to that sort of complicated meditation on the topic of “What is or is not legitimate authority?” until they’re older. Meanwhile more religiously-focused conservatives could object both to the Empire, which espoused a materialistic philosophy that at times reminded of Soviet-style militant-atheism while simultaneously being led by an autocrat and his enforcer (Emperor Palpatine/Darth Sidious & Darth Vader) who were devotees of what, if one likens the Jedi philosophy to being some fusion of Buddhist metaphysics with Christian-monastic ethics (venerating the Light Side of the Force as a means to “peace” by cultivating both individual & collective compassionate righteousness), would instead basically amount to space-Satanism (Sith venerating the Dark Side of the Force as the means to a Social-Darwinist form of “liberation” by cultivating individual talent & power above all else) by comparison; as well as to the rebels, as many religions have an almost-allergic reaction to the very idea of “rebels” being “good guys” morally-speaking (though more-likely for the Alliance/Resistance not explicitly being the-parents’-own-religion enough for comfort...).
In that kind of position, one can’t really “win” absolutely; you can’t please everyone. So then, may the devs well think, best instead to either “not-offend anyone” or at least, “offend as few as can be helped”; leaving aside the hardcore rooting-for-antagonists types (including myself more-often than I’d normally care to admit) as they’re almost always (if with exceptions in oft-surprising places) the distinct minority in any franchise.
In Star Wars Legends there was a story where a squad of stormtrooper became a group of vigilance. Still loyal to the Empire but wanted to cut out there corruption that had begun to happen with in the Empire. They even ran into Han and Luke, they tried to convince this group of StormTroopers to defect to the rebellion but refused. I can’t think of the book but if I find it then I’ll make an update to this post.
I believe it is called Allegiance by Timothy Zahn.
Thank you. I had trouble trying to remember the name.
Mara Jade; Choices of One is the book Edit: takes place after Allegiance
Huh
There was one sympathetic imperial character, in the OT even.
Captain Needa. Had no problem pursuing and destroying the Millenium Falcon, but upon realizing that he had lost its track he showed no hesitation to solely bear the blame for the failure in order to protect his crew from Vader's wrath.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who found Neda compelling. We see him for, what, two minutes? And yet he's what a military officer should be, not what the Tarkin Doctrine all but mandated.
In WWII there was one Wehrmacht soldier named Karl-Heinz Rosch, who was part of the occupation of the Netherlands. During a battle he saw two Dutch children playing outside, and risked his life to bring them to a shelter. He was killed by a grenade when tried returning to his post, and if he hadn't moved the children the grenade would have killed them instead. He's an example of how a good person can end up serving an evil government.
I think its fairly obvious, but there is one story of an Imperial I think we can all agree to be a shining example of what the Empire SHOULD have been, and not what it became.
Grand Admiral Thrawn.
He was the perfect military commander, and the leader that the Empire needed. He recognized the Empire's flaws, but saw a path towards redemption. He believed the Empire could be something that would not only keep the Chiss people safe, but safe for the entire galaxy. He didn't want to destroy worlds, enslave aliens or to be an evil bastard. He was, at his core, a good man who wanted the Empire to become what it SHOULD have been.
And the best part is, at least in Legends, Thrawn was correct. While in the Unknown Regions, he lead the Empire of the Hand, and proved that the Imperial system CAN work, with only a few modifications to allow some Chiss doctrines. He succeeded where Palpatine, Vader and Tarkin failed - he created an Empire that wasn't built upon obedience, fear and treachery. Instead he created one based on merit, respect and ingenuity.
This is why, out of all the Star Wars characters in both the E.U and Canon, Grand Admiral Thrawn will forever be my favorite character, with the only one capable of rivaling him being my second favorite, Darth Revan. And if I somehow ended up in the SW universe... I would rather side with Thrawn than any other faction.
So he's your favorite character because instead of creating an ugly dictatorship that blew up planets and did other obviously evil things, he created a gentler, cleaner dictatorship. A dictatorship that's easier to root for. Interesting.
Its not even a full-on dictatorship. The Empire of the Hand was more of a Confederation than a True Imperium. While it was authoritative, it was only a real 'Empire' by name. Aliens could enlist into the military, who were allied together through cooperation of the native governments of the Unknown Region, as opposed to the brute force of the Empire. @@starwarsnerd100
yes! ikr he's my Favorite character.The empire of hand was far better than any of the other factions
Where can you read his story? or is it fromrebels?
@@ilovegod1870 His story can be read from various media. Rebels is a good starting point, but I would also highly recomend reading Timothy Zahn's Thrawn series of books - as well as the Heir to the Empire series that takes place in the E.U, as well as the 'Outbound Flight' novel which is basically Thrawn's prequel.
Why would anyone fight in the military for any tyrannical government? The same reason why anyone joins any military, a paycheck, opportunities to advance themselves in society, a natural disposition towards high risk work, etc.
Imagine the joker who lives in such a society....
Heck, Luke wanted to join the Imperial Academy to become a TIE fighter pilot - not because he felt ideological affiliation to the Empire, but because he was a bored teenager on a world which offered him few prospects. The Imperial Navy offered adventure, status, and a respectable pay-check: Luke can't have been the only young man tempted by these things.
@@kristiankepley5944 society...
Best example of a good Imperial campaign comes in the form of the TIE Fighter game. Maarek Stele serves the Empire throughout the entirety of the campaign, fighting rebels and pirates and ultimately bringing stability and peace to worlds that were before locked in civil war and unrest. Never in the game is it suggested that you are doing anything but the right thing for the people living under the Empire’s Rule.
We need more stories like that.
“Peace, stability and a more secure society”
Palpatine for what he is, did not lie.
The rebels were the ones who started the war
Palpatine did what he promised.
His methods were questionable.
But he got the results he promised.
@@kurokitsune1939 Yes but a what cost? His actions were bad enough to cause a rebellion
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
Torino Deguzman
Tell that to the Chinese peasants and citizens after the fall of Qing Dynasty. When the KMT was small and undermanned.
Warlords form across the provinces formed their own fiefs and big cities are controlled by Criminal Kingpins (ie Shanghai).
People are summarily executed, and fighting amongst warlords for realistically petty reasons resulted in even more deaths due to the chaos of neverending faction wars.
Say what you want, you may think the Empire’s citizens don’t deserve safety, but fact is they had safety.
@@michaelnguyen3259
The Republic had been facing rebellion since the times of the sith empire. And the cis existed before Palpatine he just helped them. In legends people rebelled against the New Republic (Correlia being a notable one) and in cannon we have all the planets that joined the first order the moment they appeared.
Edit: Completely forgot about the mandolorian wars. A bunch of bloodthirsty mandos who destroyed countless worlds and killed countles innocents just because they wanted to fight. That's what the peace and liberty of the old republic brought.
Empire promises stability and security...
Georgii Logashenko and genocide and political purges, but hey
And yet they havnt done a thing about Jabbas criminal empire and support slavers.
because Jabbba is the devil they know and can deal with. He is a controlling factor and a better alternative than having him removed and having all out war between factions @@devo342
@devo342 Has any of your precious Republics done anything? Now get back in the line, that zersium won't mine itself!
#strongandstable
The Republic, New Republic, Empire and First Order were all flawed in their own right. None were even remotely perfect.
I was hoping beyond hope that Battlefront II and other works would show the perspective of such an Imperial as described in the video...and was furious when they defected. Is it so much to ask for a loyalist?
I want more characters like Thrawn, Pellaeon and Veers.
From all I know:
Legends Empire was a more "foot on the ground" Government lead by a Sith.
Canon Empire right now is an Evil Entity just for the sake of Evil.
I thought long about it, but the core reason why the Empire commit atrocities, is Palpatine. Without him the Empire could be what it was always promised to be. A place for a safer and secure Society.
More rebel propaganda.
Nothin to see here
*Move along, Move along*
Agreed fellow clone
Roger Roger
@@ceoofwarcrimes4600 wait a minute
Understood!
yes sir movesalong forgets bag with 50 pounds of c-4 thats on a timer
In the new canon it’s hard to find these people, not so much in legends.
Thrawn still exists in the new Canon, even if his portrayal is not exactly as good as it was in the old EU(Legends) it still had him as a voice of reason and took side with the Empire for it's unity not for it's xenophobia (as Grand Admiral Mitth'raw'nuruodo was a Chiss) and ruled through intuition and guidance rather than most who took after Darth Vader in ruling through fear and intimidation.
Edit: Even though he is not mentioned in the movies, the new canon books do.
I doubt there were many examples of 'good Imperials' early in the canon of Legends. Remember it's only been about 4 years or so since Disney took over Star Wars and started their canon for it.
@@FlipDarkFuture Disney is very.... liberal... at the moment. I doubt they understand nuance or moral ambiguity.
Don't expect it from Disney any time soon, or any time at all if it wants to remain very liberal.
In the new cannon there's only the First order which is really lame and nothing to fight for just pure evil...Unlike the Empire which gives its subjects a purpose.. in the First Order they abduct you, while in the Empire they enlist you..Big difference
emmerjacob ramada Yeah the new canon hasn’t added much of note. The “good” stuff it’s added are all stolen from the EU like Thrawn and the Inquisitors.
I honestly believe Star Wars is more grey than it likes to present itself, but the writers are incapable of writing decent good guys without making the bad guys irredeemable because then they would have to face the fact that the good guys are just not as compelling. While the Empire is evil it is filled with the more compelling characters and is the best source of stories, though 99% of stories from Imperial p.o.v. have them defect, in the old EU there was the occasional characters who remained steadfast to the Empire. And most of these characters have similar backstories, back during the Republic and founding of the Empire they lived in hellish places, whether under the rule of the droid armies or just on a world that had been abandoned by the Republic and fallen into chaos and anarchy, they struggled to live and eventually the Republic army, and later, Imperial army came in and saved the world, bringing order and stability. Though this order and stability was near totalitarian it was an improvement from the perspective of the rescued it was something that saved them and something worth protecting at all costs and their enemy, the Rebel Alliance, wanted to restore the system that had given way to the cause of their suffering.
The new canon though is completely incapable of creating a grey and gray conflict on any level, even when they try. It is always clear cut, underdog Rebels are good and overpowered Government is evil, hence why they destroyed the New Republic because they didn't want an equal power to the bad guys to back up the good guys....
Sorry that went a lot longer than I planned.
The "new canon" is run by a Mickey Mouse operation which is most interested in making stories with appeal to children.
Blurry shades of grey, moral relativism, and ambiguously skewed ethics don't really have any place in these straightforward good-guys-defeat-the-bad-guys toy commercials.
@@pwnmeisterage well...except some novels where they do bring grey morality in the universe when Disney tries to push the black and white perspective held in the OG trilogy to not have much complexity
While you're correct in that you're also incorrect. The Mandolorian came out and it has a lot of Grey in it.
Gabriel Davila well, the Mandalorian isn’t exactly tied to the main story of Star Wars. It’s more of a filler story of here’s what’s life is all about while Luke and Darth Vader are duking it out.
Star Wars generally has been mostly about good vs evil.
So why stories like these work in Star Wars? Well, it’s because the main arc (good vs evil) has been the main theme for 9 movies already. Of course people got bored after 9 movies of the same theme.
@@pwnmeisterage I sense that they tried to do that with Episode 8, but pussed out with Episode 9. Episode 8 subverted expectations. We got to see the double-dealing of the weapons manufacturer equipping both sides of the conflict. We got to see the flaws of the Jedi order and mulled over the idea of whether it deserved to be resurrected at all. We got to see the plucky lone wolf hero get taken down a notch for assuming he knew what was best for everyone and barging ahead without thinking. We entertained the notion that you don't have to be from an "important" bloodline to be important.
The writers gave us that. And they got HAMMERED for it.
I joined as it was necessary. For my own people, as well as theirs.
And the Empire gained much from your talents and the skills you cultivated in those who served under you.
Thrawn
How’d that turn out?
Well, in my play through of Star wars the old republic, I played a sith Inquisitor who, while absolutely an adherent to the dark side of the force, tended to show mercy when his enemies relented. Only the most resilient of his foes got the "sith shock therapy". As a former slave, he sought to improve the well being of the lowest Imperial citizens, while at the same time doing his work as a member of the Sith Order. While this isn't the Galactic Empire, the Sith Empire in SWTOR was similar to the Galactic Empire, but on a much smaller scale.
The answer is Maarek Stele, mate.
One of my favorite characters from the Star Wars EU.
Captain Needa could be viewed as a “good person”. The Empire is built around the morals of self preservation. However he owned up to his mistake and went to apologise to Darth Vader, probably knowing the consequences. Don’t know his backstory, but from this little scene in Empire Strikes Back, we can presume he’s not an “all bad” person.
"Good people can faithfully serve an evil regime."
Reminds me a lot of the Milgrim Experiment. It was conducted out of the question of "how the German people could have been brought to support the Nazis, even with the holocaust."
The experiment involved the participant being put in charge of a switch box that conducted electric shocks to someone in a separate room. They were told to administer the shocks whenever the other person answered a question wrong, and progress to lethal levels. (The shocks weren't real, by the way.) Those experimented often questioned going that far, while the professor overseeing them was just there to insist that the experiment continued. Over 2/3 of participants reached the "deathly shock."
Ethical criticisms aside, this experiment says a lot about this "good people doing or serving horrible things" point. It comes down to the charisma of authority figures.
This is the kind of content that puts you guys so far above and beyond any sci-fi/fiction lore channel.
Thank you very much. This is the kind of content that always makes me nervous because I'm never sure how people are going to respond. Glad ya liked it! - Marc
The Empire brought peace and stability, the instability of a later years of the Republic combined with a chaos of the Clone Wars would give many citizens the desire to fight to maintain the peace and prevent the chaos from happening again
For all the flak the prequel trilogies get, it presented us with a more realistic interpretation of how good ol' Sheev came into power. The man orchestrated a conflict that let him run a killer PR campaign, to the point where most of the Republic looked at him as THE man who saved the galaxy from the Clone Wars, as well as managing to survive an attempted coup by the Jedi. I think it would have been interesting to see if the average Republic citizen trusted the Jedi Order, or whether they regarded their resident space wizards with fear and suspicion; the latter would have worked in Palpatine's favour, and I could see how he might have used that to his advantage.
I think it could be interesting to see the political side of how Palpatine managed the Empire after he took control. Did he keep working that public image, selling himself to the populace as the man who saved the galaxy? If so, then I could easily see how good people would want to fight for the Galactic Empire, and view the Rebellion as a bunch of criminals.
I've read Lost Stars, that book gives a incredible insight on the view of the common stormtroopers.
In that book there was a alderaanian, he saw his planet blow up in the DS1, after that he embraced the only thing he had left, the empire.
Timothy Zahn has done a good job of writing Imperials as people. Allegiance and Choices of One are two good examples where a squad of stormtroopers desert from service due to an incident with the ISB but still believe in the Empire believing the Empire as a whole but feeling there are some bad apples tarnishing the name.
Also Gilad Pellaeon first introduced in the Thrawn trilogy was a completely loyal Imperial because the Empire brought order and stability where the rebels were criminals only bringing chaos to the galaxy.
And thirdly the Empire offers a really good benefits package.
Pelleon was a good officer and a good person and a loyal believer of The Empire.
"There are no good men in war.............just men trying to get through"
Never click on a video so quick in my life
Order . Justice . Freedom . Security
To the Galaxy .
“Listen man I know that the empire represses my rights and freedoms but god damn it it has a better dental plan than the rebels”
To answer MARC’s question at the beginning, yes there are Imperial officers who honored their underlings. Mainly Grand Admiral Thrawn.
Thrawn on numerous occasions accepted questioning of his orders by his officers and rarely punished failure. To him, so long as an officer worked to the best of their abilities, he accepted their failure and often taught them how to be better officers. So long as they didn’t express insubordination,blatant stupidity, or ignorance, he kept them in service to him. If they didn’t meet these criteria, he sent them on their way to a different officer, often one who refused to work to the best of their abilities and got their position not through hard work but instead through political machinations.
Legends is filled with such stories of imperial Troopers, officers, and such being decent, morale, hard working persons, and I love most of them sm
Cool uniforms, shiny ships and great benefits. For the Empire!
In Russia many people see Rebel Aliance as terrorist group, that just fight for goods of ex senators, which lost power after enstablishment of Galactic Empire.
Do you mean Russian fans
I have always found the "Baddie for the sake of being Bad" sort of villain is boring and makes my eyes roll. People like the Hand of Judgement, a stormtrooper squad under Mara Jade's command, stern believes in the order and principle of the empire but who fought corrupt imperials were great for the lord. Giliad Pelleaon was another great character but perhaps what Larissa said about Thrawn in your previous episode is one of the best so far:
*"If Thrawn was a believer in the empire has become a subject of much debate, it is widely recognized that he admired many of it's concepts. A centralized government with a strong military. His views of the rampant xenophobia within the regime was a great deal more complex, as shown by his egalitarian rule in the empire of the hand. The Galaxy may never know his true motives for making war on the New republic, was it all part of a great plan to prepare the galaxy for the arrival of the Yuzhaan vong, was he only interested in the protection of his people? Or was he simply an opportunistic warlord.."* (Great voice Larissa)
Disney is just doing so much to make it black and white, I find it boring bland. Not to mention terrible story writing.
Yet at the start of every large government there is a noble cause but when it gets to big things fall apart since paper work gets to big to handle and red tape gets to long nuf said.
@@AverageEstonian But you did not say anything at all.. This was just a sweeping generalization, a great simplification.
@@TheIfifi Some times it is easy to keep thing simple so almost all people can understand meaning of what is said.
@@AverageEstonian Sounds like a lazy excuse to me...
@@TheIfifi Well yeah it is some what lazy since i got home from work at moment when i wrote it so yeah still i stated my opinion.
Order out of chaos
Humanity first
Long live the empire
I’ve always been an advocate for this theory. Both in fiction and in reality. Just because someone is serving in the military of a flawed people or government doesn’t automatically make them a evil person. People, both in our world and any fictional world are often more complicated than that.
I've personally always been pro imperial, despite the love and 'hope' that the rebels loved to preach, it was generally only the higher command of the rebel alliance and face characters that were the good people in the story, in many, many events most resistance groups resembled Saw Gerrera, merciless, amoral and blinded by ill educated rage. Individuals who killed anyone who didn't support their cause, regardless of being a man woman or child.
One also has to remember that the story is presented in the eyes of the jedi, or the rebel alliance. Not the eyes of the citizens or the Empire it's self to which never knew that Anikin was still alive, that the jedi attacked the clones first at the temple or that palpatine was indeed a sith lord.
To most, everyone saw their beloved leader betrayed by a religious fanatic cult that was no longer supported by a democracy on the verge of collapse. A galaxy ruined by a war of politics and corruption. The empire was formed (To the face of the galaxy) to rescue the galaxy that in many places were just rubble or planets that were home to lawless scoundrel that abused the population for personal gain.
and as it's stated above, the empire despite it's harsh control tactics did in fact bring security, food and opportunity to everyone when they arrived, even aliens, despite their Anti-Alien behavior.
I haven't seen anyone else mention it here (but there are already over a thousand comments, so I might have missed it) but the new cannon book "Star Wars: Lost Stars" by Claudia Gray is an excellent example of the kind of emotional complexity you mentioned here. The story centers around two characters, the same age and from the same rim world, beginning when they are kids on the day the Empire annexed their world (a joyous celebration for all of them) and following them as they go to the Imperial Academy and up through their burgeoning careers in the Imperial military.
A big part of the story is the kind of both competition and comradely they experience, between each other and the friends they make, and how the Empire's descent into totalitarian autocracy was a kind of creeping gradualism. That same gradual nature made it easier to justify the things that the Empire did as necessary, and made it harder to simply throw everything they had worked toward away even as they come to realize that the Empire they ended up working for wasn't necessarily the Empire they signed on with anymore. The effects of Imperial propaganda is also seen in their perceptions: some of the more mundane atrocities are kept from them, communication is controlled so the residents of one world made comfortable by the Empire don't have to take notice of the suffering from another world ground under it's heel. Even the destruction of Alderaan is seen as justified (by some) as a necessary but lamentable step to end the rebellion before it can gain momentum with an overwhelming display of force... and that such a step was ultimately a failure that shouldn't be repeated after the destruction of the first Death Star.
One of the two characters does end up defecting, but not directly to the Rebels, just going AWOL because he can't stomach the thought of continuing anymore. The other ends up staying loyal, because she has an extremely strong sense of personal honor and can't bring herself to violate oaths she made in good faith, even if that faith wasn't shared by the organization she was oathbound to. The former reflects that the later was being made to do evil because she was personally too good of an individual.
Well, let's say rebels killed your parents. Then you join up to save other people from those who kill your people.
Edit: Thanks for the likes!
By blowing up a mostly innocent planet and forcing people into slavery? Nothing like a self righteous hypocrite.
@@devo342
Not trying to seem self righteous, just providing an explanation. No need to be rude.
Yeah but what if imperials killed my parents? Do I just join up
With them then?
@@chadkingoffuckmountain970
I'm not trying to explain every dynamic, just the one in which somebody might be patriotic to the empire. I'm not saying everybody joined the empire.
Rogue One hinted at such terrible things happening with certain Alliance factions in the early days. It'd give anybody strong incentive to join up with the outfit that'd do something about it.
this is why I love the squadrons trailer so much, it shows a wing commander caring about and protecting his squad mates at the cost of him being left behind, it shows an x wing pilot being a d!ck saying "THE WARS OVER" right before crashing into a rock because he was to busy yelling at the tie pilot, and the pilot saying "not for me" as a transport appears overhead
>imagine unironically disliking the empire because of MuH fReDoOm
That was the most video-relevant ad read I've ever heard. Truly, kudos to the Institute!
Because storm trooper. That's all the reason I need.
Play the Swtor, lots of good Imperial stories :)
Why? in the words of Arthur Morgan.
"I need Muneh, BOAH"
I think that good example of a good person who serves the Empire is Gilad Pellaeon. This man made so that the remnants of the Empire ended slavery, stopped committing war crimes and he managed to finish the Galactic Civil War using diplomacy. Pellaeon valued his subordinates and believed in imperial values.
For a "good" imperial officer that doesn't defect, I recommend reading about Tank in Empire 16-18: To the Last Man.
"This is not to say that the Galactic Empire was anything more than an evil regime." That's where you're wrong, *CITIZEN*
Palpatine was retarded and not based. Please get thrawn into power and I’ll consider the empire.
Reason:
Job
Career
Money
Employment
Space Adventure!
and a free Wookie rug
There is a Comic about the story of a Stormtrooper, which is exactly what you dscribe. In fact, he has enough reason to HATE the Rebellion
Grand Admiral Thrawn.
Perfect example!
Prawn*
"The Empire is a government. It keeps billions of beings fed and clothed. Day after day, year after year, on thousands of worlds, people live their lives under Imperial rule without seeing a stormtrooper or hearing a TIE fighter scream overhead.” - Thrawn
And Captain Pellion (sp?), Thrawn's Number One. He wasn't a cartoon bad guy, but a dedicated and pretty much honorable military man.
@@Krondon-SSR Fookin' prawns!
The problem with the Empire is how it was structured.
If the emperor is pissed he yells at the high command,
So then high command yells at officers,
Officers then yell at NCOs,
NCOs yell at regular soldiers,
Soldiers yell at civilians,
The civilians yell at the emperor and call for his overthrow, making him more pissed so the cycle repeats.
And in which type of government is it different?
Oh ... this is BEAUTIFUL. May The Emperor Bless the Templin Institute’s work.
Seriously, it's about damn time someone brought this up. I'd like to see an *actual* story from the imperial side (in a bigger media form than the books, at least) one of these days, that didn't make the character into an evil villain or a quick turncoat.
Your video is timed perfectly to come 5 days after the release of the fan film "Bucketheads" which came out on youtube. It follows a squad of stormtroopers trapped in enemy territory, and it's pretty much what you're talking about in this video.
In the movie, I'd suggest the most human portrayed character in the Empire was Admiral Piett. Though in the opening and cut scenes of New Hope Luke is talking about the idea of joining the Empire, when he refers to joining the academy he's talking about an Imperial Stormtrooper academy. He hates the Empire but it's his chance off the planet and away.
Fel's bloodline, as the inheritance of the Empire, is fascinating in the old EU. The true believers like Giliad Pellaeon and Marek Stele are great. Tarkin himself as the architect was one who merely believed force and fear to be the only way to ensure a lasting peace. Yularen is fantastic in the books and old lore that explained him. Most of the major naval officers besides the nobles and a few of the more cruel. Zel Johans is an Imperial Army Officer from a few core books and stories that was pretty good. Honestly just going through officers of the lore gets you a lot of characters that were just straight true believers.
I love how the Expanded Universe of the old lore came to conclude the collapse of the Empire because it was realistic and proved the Empire had a point and there was reason people fought for it. The Emperor's death created a power vacuum and shattered the Empire, the Rebellion was pathetic for a galactic military force, they couldn't take planets, the Rebellion was never powerful enough to truly take major Imperial fleets head-to-head and had a tiny amount of manpower, it wasn't set up to fill in that vacuum at all at the time of the Empire's destruction and everything collapsed into a chaos of war that was worse than the Galactic Civil War as few planets allied and all fought, and even until the end there were still true believers which kept the Empire alive.
Same reason why people fight for the Imperium in 40k. A hostile galaxy that constantly spawns new horrible things to kill you and/or devour you. I mean, look at the Force users, how many galactic wide wars have the Jedi and the Sith been responsible for? Sure, the Emperor is a Sith, but he's not going to allow anyone to take his position, so no rogue sith lords starting civil wars, no Jedi telling us that dying by the billions for some reason only they know about is "For the Greater Good".
The real problems came from the Rebel Alliance, and the remaining Jedi. And we all saw what happened after their "Victory".
The Second Galactic Civil War and the Vong invasion. Yea those were great times.
I think it's more nuanced than that.
What is the problem with *any* large government entity the size of a whole galaxy? It can't do everything. Empire, Republic, it makes no difference; they were doomed to fail when faced with such a task. Instead of asking 'Why would anyone fight for X?', perhaps there is a better question to ask.
'What is worth fighting for?'
Had Palpatine been a wiser ruler, he would have allowed the CIS to operate as it wished but with key provisos in place. Had he been wiser, he would have tightened the grip on the core systems and allowed other sectors to do as they please again with provisos in place. The Empire was very anti-alien (Humanity First), so maybe they should have considered letting those aliens do as they want within limits. I hate to say it, but if trimmed down, The Empire or Republic could have been a force of needed change and a pretty solid bulwark against trouble down the road.
As it stands, Star Wars just becomes a mask for everything wrong in our modern world. What is worth fighting for is a code of ethics that respects everyone, but doesn't quibble when one of those ethics get broken. The Rebel Alliance was simply the wake up call, and Palpatine didn't listen. Look where that got him, tossed down a shaft by the one person who was most loyal to him.
Much like a waltz: War, Peace, and Revolution. Humanity only knows those three states of existence. I would have more, but that would be a discussion into why non-duality would also have saved the citizens of the Star Wars Universe some grief, too. That's a wholly different can of worms.
All I have to say about this is way back in a new hope Luke was planning on joining the empire, to him becoming an Imperial pilot was a chance at a better life, he knew the empire wasn’t that great but it was better than a life on a dry rock doing backbreaking work until he was old and dry himself or was killed in a sandperson raid.
I can answer this in real practical terms: The reason why anyone would fight for the Galactic Empire is the same reason why anyone would fight for any form of Government. Reasons of patriotism, money, and sometimes just straight up not having any other choice
I'm so glad I didn't buy Battlefront 2. Remember them talking about wanting to tell the other side of the story? In retrospect, that was a clear bait and switch.
The novel Lost Stars by Claudia Gray covers this topic in a pretty interesting way. I'd recommend checking it out!
Lost Stars is great
In Legends after the Rebel Alliance had taken Coruscant. One of the first things they did was kill all the bureaucrats that had been residing in the Imperial Palace. They didn't put them on trial or launch investigations into any potential crimes they may have committed, they just killed them all indiscriminately.
Big points are sound. Most western viewers will point to post 9/11 mentalities, with promises of stability after decades of conflict. And the Galactic Republic post-War does fit the bill quite nicely for that.
An interesting Star Wars story might take place, giving the daily lives of soldiers as they just make it through the hum-drum of everyday life on a forward operating base on the Outer Rim, fighting off insurgents.
Admittedly, I’m thinking this through from the bottom up, but I’m sure someone could make a compelling Officer, but a story I’d like to see is a medical officer trying to keep his troops motivated and fighting to get supplies of bandages when the other officers just want more weapons and ammo.
... but that’s just me spitballing.
This is a great video. Definitely need more of this kind of topic.
The Empire did nothing wrong.
Hellyer cough *Alderaan* cough
Story Man don’t fund/support terrorists.
@@storyman385 Alderaan deserved it, they were harboring a separatist movement bent on destroying the imperial peace.
@@storyman385 Terrible accident, the rebels should be held accountable for their actions with the glorious peace moon.
Thestonewall117 Wasn't the point of the Death Star and the destruction of Aldaran to terrify the galaxy into submission? Becuase I'm pretty sure that's what makes a terrorist.
I agree with the comments of it being more shades of grey than anything else. "Security and prosperity for those under the Empire." While executed differently, created that generally overall. While some prospered because of trade others prospered because of work. At the end of the day, food to eat, clothes to wear and a place to sleep is better than nothing.
Are we going to talk about Thrawn or?
I am about halfway through reading the “Thrawn trilogy“ by Zahn. I am greatly enjoying these stories, exactly because it gives insight into a leader of the Galactic Empire in a more three-dimensional wayThrawn is not simply presented as a vicious killer, he has a personal moral structure, he feels responsibility towards his subordinates, And he is motivated by a greater cause, the protection of his planet and race from the invasion that he knows is coming from the outer rim. Even Darth Vader in this series of books is given a more human depth, although he continues to be clearly a Sociopath.
This is a very valuable video. Every single point made here also applies to the Confederate States of America, which certain types also want to denigrate as a cartoon villain with no nuance, along with everyone who fought for it.
“Stonewall” Jackson ran a school for poor black kids, ya’ll. Lee said he wished he owned every slave so he could free them and avoid the war. It enrages me to see them treated as villains to be forgotten.
The lure of stability is far more powerful than people think...
because they are the good guys! smh it's pretty easy to understand!
That's in the eyes of the beholder.
No I'm pretty sure destroying an entire planet becuase a few of its rulers are rebels is pretty clear cut evil
Alderaan deserved it. How many billions of innocent people died because they funded a Galaxy wide coalition of terrorists?
Yes
You have rights
I would argue that after the founding of the Empire, Sheev Palpatine made it a point to hand-pick the curriculum of the Imperial Academies, to ensure that only those officers with a propensity for evil and cruelty were graduated. Your basic run-of-the-mill Stormtrooper was brainwashed to be a fanatical loyalist, but the programming didn't always take and the Stormtroopers, like regular line troopers, were promoted more for their potential as troop leaders and their ability to accomplish the mission than for their willingness to blindly obey orders. This is why the New Republic, in the signing of the Galactic Concordance, declared that all Imperial officers were war criminals, without exception. An Imperial officer would not graduate the Academy on Carida or elsewhere if he or she did not show a desire to commit deliberately cruel acts or to choose the more shocking and horrible method of punishment. Most others, likely, did not survive the curriculum.
Both the Rebels and the Imperials wanted to make the Galaxy a better place. The rebel alliance wanted to restore the Republic, but they don't realise that they could achieve that by working for the empire. First, become an officer in the imperial navy, then, rise to high levels (eg. Admiral, Grand Moff or Governor) and use you political powers to improve the empire, make the empire same as or better than the republic. In other words, you become a good imperial. That is how you could "Restore the Republic".
One of the comics was about someone who was forced to be in fighting pits for this crime family and hated it, until the empire came and liberated it. He proudly joined his saviors and became this trooper who i think wielded a lightsaber.
"Hans, are we the baddies?"
Veers actually seemed like a decent person, professional and competent.
Well one argument is that jedi values-based and democracy didn't work out in the republic, as it was a very elite regime, keeping the poor people overtaxed in the outerworlds (which turned to the seperatista), and wasn't very equal or fair. The empire strives peace by assinilation and the republic had peace through treaties and agreements. You know, im not joking when i imagine the star wars universe to be russia in its transformation to the USSR. The "peaceful" Tsars are the enemy to the same people they serve, which brought the pendelum swinging to a more authoritarian state. This was a lot more applicable in legends.
An excellent example of the kind of Imperial officer you're talking about would be Grand Admiral Thrawn. As originally conceived by his creator Timothy Zahn, he was a man whose sole goal in life was order. He promoted his people strictly on merit, always gave his opponents their due respect and was never afraid to backtalk Palpatine if the latter was pushing a terrible idea. If he had the New Republic's military, nobody would have dared take them on. But he found himself, through a number of early formative experiences, fighting for the Empire.
The Empire brings stability, order, and technology to the uncivilized. Long live The Empire death to the rebellion.
I think this holds very true, even when looking at actual wars. Most people forget that a war is not only a conflict between two or more goverments, but also between countries and peoples and that not everybody signing up to join the war does so for the sake of supporting the ideals of those in power, but perhaps for a very different reason, may that reason be personal, ideological or something entirely different.
It’s morally easy to point and say...”evil, bad men” than to understand the individual actions that led to a decision or belief.
This is one of the best Templin Institute videos. I've always been a fan of The Empire, and this video does a really good job of explaining why someone might choose to fight for what it stood for.
Please can you guys do a video on Mandalorians EU or canon which ever would be great
Juan Collazos Mandalorians from EU/Legends have more information on their history and culture. So I’d say definitely do EU Mandalorians.
eu mandalorians are better, more culture and they are not theses pacifistic fools that they became in the clone wars and rebels
God whenever I read EU here I think you mean European Union and become confused as heck... D:
When a crazy emperor destroys planets in 40k its a normal Tuesday, but when a crazy Star Wars emperor does it everyone loses their minds :P
Did you say that our God Emperor is crazy,YOU HERETIC?!
I just watched the naming video. Can you just explain this a bit more: if you had an 'organisation' that spanned many planets that each had some local authority but still had a central government, could that be called a protectorate, or would it be better as something like a confederation
It's worth noting that Luke himself in the OT talks about his dreams of becoming an imperial pilot
Admiral Thrawn, Gilad Pellaeon, Natasi Dalla, about anyone with the last name Fel, there are many in the Empire who weren't monsters and who in the end molded the remains of the Empire into a more positive system.
What Disney had done with their canon to Star Wars spits on the memory of such characters. Disney deserves no forgiveness or mercy for that.
"Is it possible to be a good person, and an imperial soldier?" Yes
Whats not possible is for someone to be a rebel soldier or sympathizer and to also be good person
Seems like you've missed the most obvious and the most common reason to join the Empire. A Paycheck.
It's been made abundantly clear that the Star Wars universe (or at least the vast majority of it) is still a capitalist economy. For every towering, impressive metropolis world, there appears to be several which comprise mostly of slums or common industry. There would be a great many recruits, perhaps most, who would seek a steady income and/or a means of travel off-world, rather than joining for lofty goals of patriotism and morality. A dirty job is still a job.
Additionally, I'd just like to point out that there are plenty of atrocities & war crimes to go around. How much collateral damage do you think the rebellion causes in it's raids & bombings? Just as not every Empire soldier can be an evil sociopath, not every rebel can be a noble, heroic beacon of hope.
Kyle Katarn's novel series is a good example. There's a lot of honor that went into being a storm trooper and William C. Dietz hit it perfectly