I’ve worked that program many times. No other program would say “you didn’t work it the write way” no doctor would blame the patient for a surgery outcome. This is all biased garbage.
What would the dr say if she told the patient to take a medicine daily for three months and they only did it for a week and the surgery ends up not working?
I've been struggling with alcoholism for years. I've had mixed success... sobriety for a few weeks or months followed by inevitable relapse. At least I can say I drink a LOT LESS than I used to.
The other 10% represents a helluva bunch of people worldwide, who have been spared the "final catastrophe" and are now living with joy and complete freedom! They are responsible citizens, husbands, wives, parents, and employees in every profession from A to Z. Add to that, restoration of family life, health, monetary income, trust, integrity, philanthropy, wisdom, and a desire to help others, and that translates to great success. The detractors will always look for the negative, because that's all they understand.
There's a lot of good people in there that "make it". Bit there's also a lot of bad ones. Lemme guess you're thinking "well you can find bad people at the library." Yea but they aren't protected by the traditions and anonymity. A lot of these "spiritual gurus" take advantage of vulnerable new comers. xA is the perfect place for predators to go. I've seen all kinds of toxic behaviors from old timers that made their sponcee's resentful and quit. I don't even call it a program anymore. It's a religious cult.
I did AA for 2 years and gave it up because it was depressing. I am still sober after 4 years without a social network of drunks. In fact i would rather not be around those that still need alcohol to live. That is the other reason i left AA.
@@JimSavageRecovery in my experience, the 'connections' I made at 12 step meetings were not people I wanted in my life. It was sort of cult-ish imo. Some of those people seemed unhealthily dependent on each other
@@JimSavageRecovery sorry, not trying to attack personally. Please delete my comment if you'd like. I was just sharing my own experience. I gave 12 step a legit chance and worked the steps. But having a 45 year old walmart manager as my sponsor, etc etc was not encouraging. The program left alot to be desired and I found much more success elsewhere, largely on my own, but also with successful work-friend groups and close family.
This is how it's done in this program. Bottom line through the book course of action. No treatment center no have houses you want to get the live the day talk about in the appendix at the end of the book spiritual experience. That's how you carry the message paper page 42 in the big book. That's crucial. 19 years sober. Grateful❤ Thank you for all the grace and Grace and credit to God ❤️ and of course carrying the message freely giving it to me❤ 1:06
If I were going to rely on God to get and keep me sober, I'd just go back to church, pray, and do all my believing in a context other than in a knock-off, second hand, bargain basement cult religion like AA, which was founded by a chain-smoking, skirt-chasing con man. And, admit it or not, "God" is the program. I spent over 20 years in the rooms, and most of the time I came out of them wanting to drink more than when I went in. And it wasn't because I "didn't want to do the work," which was the kind of victim-blaming bullshit I heard all the time from condescending, smug sponsors and old-timers who loved nothing better than running other people's lives. I'm nearly 70, and it hasn't been until I left AA that I finally got 2 years of sobriety, which in the cultists' eyes simply means I'm on a "pink cloud" or that I am a "dry drunk." If you get sober without AA, you get nothing but dire warnings about non-existent diseases "doing push-ups in the parking lot" and predictions of failure. Thanks. No thanks.
People dont need to do what you dictate thats what you steppers don’t understand. We think 💭 n a complete different way. You will never get it! I am either living in fear or in love. I choose love over fear anywhere I can. I do not need to prove a thing to you!
Hey I did all the steps and felt like crap. I was trying to be a sponsor but no one wanted me because I didn't have a lot of "time." I started to get a different messages from the meetings and my sponsor. I tried to listen to both because apparently "that's how it works." I moved and trying to get more open minded in meetings. I start doing good and then I reach out and I don't know just been getting the back lash. Wish the steps taught how to deal with stuff more instead of just praying and helping others. It got weird. I wanted to try again but it all seems to weird to me now. I think my higher power is trying to tell me something. Or is it my "addiction talking."
Hey man, I appreciate your openness and sincerity. It's a really tricky thing to figure out; on one hand 12 Step meetings are FAR from perfect, there can be a lot of knuckleheads in there, and you can have the experience you describe. On the other hand, it's a tough call when people say they're doing the program and it's not working-as you alluded to with the "is it my addiction talking"-being in denial about some aspect of honesty or willingness can keep the program from working, but hard to tell when you're in it! I just wrote a short eBook i give away for free that's specifically about what you describe "i did the steps and felt like crap." It's called Sobriety's Not Supposed To Suck: A Guide To Finding Excitement, Happiness, ANd Spiritual Fulfillment In Recovery. My point in there is that 1) it's not uncommon to feel like "this sucks", and 2) getting sober's supposed to make you feel good- otherwise why would anybody do it. maybe there's something in there that cpould help. Here's the link: www.jimsavage.net/sobrietyebook
12 Step recovery is based on what's called "peer-based support." There's a unique dynamic that occurs when one person dealing with the same issue helps another person-in a non-professional way. And the paradox is that helping someone else is actually how the person doing the helping stays sober. You're not thinking about using/drinking when you're helping someone else not drink or use. Having a group of people around you that provide sober support instead of trying to do it alone is quite valuable as well.
The 12 Steps are outdated imo...It works as some sort of support network or family unit for addicts with a troubled childhood but thats it imo...Even the tetm 'alchcholic ' is outdated now...Unless your Alchahol dependent its Alchchol Use Disorder , a spectrum...
AA. A haven for axis two cluster b personalities spiritually bypassing their way out of truly living like joining a a other clubs like gardening or bicycle or art where the capital I me me me isn't center and foremost but actual adult engagements. Save the the fourteen dollars a week and meet with a licensed counselor once a month and go live a real life
I was sucked into the AA movement at 18. It hijacked my thinking until 35. I have had much more success since leaving but that was difficult as i was brainwashed a bit. But what you say is true indeed. They are followers forever, never grow up and always look down and treat people who disagree like children. Now i stand up to them and i see them all the time in sober cafes in my city. They try to manipulate everyone there into it but run into actual adults and there world collapses and they relapse. Sometimes even calling me crying when drunk but then i never hear from them again. Its a sad program. Misguiding millions.
AA and the 12 Steps suggested as a program of recovery, coupled with CBT, have allowed me to have a happy life for 40 years, since 10-20-83 ... That said, I support whatever works for a person. My brother has been clean and sober now for about 45 years and found his path to sobriety through Christianity. AA works, IF you work it.
No. For me I have experience in 12 step programs and was blamed. I have a mental iĺnrss. It's irresponsible with programs 12 step..unless u want to be manipulated.
The most powerful part of any support group is the result you get from “herd instinct”. People will generally behave and conform to the group of people around them. Associating with drunks makes drinking seem normal and vice versa. It is critical to strive for approval from the type of people you’d like to be.
Good point. "People tend to do what those around them are doing." One of the biggest reasons for poor outcomes following rehab is the fact that while in rehab, clients are surrounded by people talking about recovery, improving their lives, being a better person, healing etc. It's not that hard to get fired up about recovery-while in rehab. The day they leave and go back to their environment, think about the huge dropoff in people around espousing recovery. It's not surprising to lose motivation for recovery when you lose that immersion in people being (or at least talking about being) the kind of person you want to be. That's the point of the whole peer-based support piece. You can't stay in rehab forever; the possibility is there to create your own social support network (herd) that reinforces recovery. But it takes some effort on the individual's part to make that happen.
Like most things it can take time to really understand and work the 12 steps of AA. The success rate hase dropped over the years and so has the use of the word god. That for me is were the magic of AA truly works letting god into your life and having that connection. X
This is a silly video that shows a lack of understanding of 12 step programs. Personally I do not like them at all for very legit reasons that are not related to the reasons mentioned in this video.
That is the problem. AA is not the only program anymore. AA was too zealous for me and judgmental. But if it worked for you, that's a blessing. Just do not put others down for not finding success in AA and di in another science based program.
To be fair we probably should distinguish between the program itself and the people, I do think there's a lot of groupthink in 12-step programs and since the majority will have already aligned with those attitudes then even if it's not in the program literature itself it will be embedded in the local culture it's not the greater culture of the program or fellowship. And people who may not agree may not want to rock the boat, after all this is about social support so it's much easier to be a yes-man and talk things up unequivocally.
@@markc5960 The only social support I received was 'Act like us or your not one of us.' There is no room for individuality in AA. Maybe some 12 step programs are better.
I completely acknowledge that chronic pain recovery is a REALLY challenging situation. That's a quite specialized area of recovery and I am certainly not an expert in that. I wish you the best.
I’ve worked that program many times. No other program would say “you didn’t work it the write way” no doctor would blame the patient for a surgery outcome. This is all biased garbage.
Hell ya
You didn't spell it the right way either lol
What would the dr say if she told the patient to take a medicine daily for three months and they only did it for a week and the surgery ends up not working?
Immersion in these programs is not analogous to taking a medicine.
Are you at all serious?
@@JimSavageRecovery 12 steps is garbage. They always label themselves degenerates. Labeling themselves addicts everytime they introduce themselves
I've been struggling with alcoholism for years. I've had mixed success... sobriety for a few weeks or months followed by inevitable relapse. At least I can say I drink a LOT LESS than I used to.
If it doesnt work for 90% of the people that try it, theres a problem.
The other 10% represents a helluva bunch of people worldwide, who have been spared the "final catastrophe" and are now living with joy and complete freedom! They are responsible citizens, husbands, wives, parents, and employees in every profession from A to Z. Add to that, restoration of family life, health, monetary income, trust, integrity, philanthropy, wisdom, and a desire to help others, and that translates to great success. The detractors will always look for the negative, because that's all they understand.
There's a lot of good people in there that "make it". Bit there's also a lot of bad ones. Lemme guess you're thinking "well you can find bad people at the library." Yea but they aren't protected by the traditions and anonymity.
A lot of these "spiritual gurus" take advantage of vulnerable new comers. xA is the perfect place for predators to go.
I've seen all kinds of toxic behaviors from old timers that made their sponcee's resentful and quit. I don't even call it a program anymore. It's a religious cult.
I did AA for 2 years and gave it up because it was depressing. I am still sober after 4 years without a social network of drunks. In fact i would rather not be around those that still need alcohol to live. That is the other reason i left AA.
Peer based support? sounds kind of co-dependent to me. I achieved sobriety through CBT all by myself. Never relapsed, life is good
I’ll suggest there’s a difference. Unhealthy codependence: not good. Connection with others: very good
@@JimSavageRecovery in my experience, the 'connections' I made at 12 step meetings were not people I wanted in my life. It was sort of cult-ish imo. Some of those people seemed unhealthily dependent on each other
I chose to make connections with successful people. You are the company you keep. I didn't meet many successful folks at meetings
@@toastedcheerios ouch
@@JimSavageRecovery sorry, not trying to attack personally. Please delete my comment if you'd like. I was just sharing my own experience. I gave 12 step a legit chance and worked the steps. But having a 45 year old walmart manager as my sponsor, etc etc was not encouraging. The program left alot to be desired and I found much more success elsewhere, largely on my own, but also with successful work-friend groups and close family.
This is how it's done in this program. Bottom line through the book course of action. No treatment center no have houses you want to get the live the day talk about in the appendix at the end of the book spiritual experience. That's how you carry the message paper page 42 in the big book. That's crucial. 19 years sober. Grateful❤ Thank you for all the grace and Grace and credit to God ❤️ and of course carrying the message freely giving it to me❤ 1:06
If I were going to rely on God to get and keep me sober, I'd just go back to church, pray, and do all my believing in a context other than in a knock-off, second hand, bargain basement cult religion like AA, which was founded by a chain-smoking, skirt-chasing con man. And, admit it or not, "God" is the program. I spent over 20 years in the rooms, and most of the time I came out of them wanting to drink more than when I went in. And it wasn't because I "didn't want to do the work," which was the kind of victim-blaming bullshit I heard all the time from condescending, smug sponsors and old-timers who loved nothing better than running other people's lives. I'm nearly 70, and it hasn't been until I left AA that I finally got 2 years of sobriety, which in the cultists' eyes simply means I'm on a "pink cloud" or that I am a "dry drunk." If you get sober without AA, you get nothing but dire warnings about non-existent diseases "doing push-ups in the parking lot" and predictions of failure. Thanks. No thanks.
100% agree. The one true God is the answer, not some idolatrous syncretic new-agey "steps".
People dont need to do what you dictate thats what you steppers don’t understand. We think 💭 n a complete different way. You will never get it! I am either living in fear or in love. I choose love over fear anywhere I can. I do not need to prove a thing to you!
Hey I did all the steps and felt like crap. I was trying to be a sponsor but no one wanted me because I didn't have a lot of "time." I started to get a different messages from the meetings and my sponsor. I tried to listen to both because apparently "that's how it works." I moved and trying to get more open minded in meetings. I start doing good and then I reach out and I don't know just been getting the back lash. Wish the steps taught how to deal with stuff more instead of just praying and helping others. It got weird. I wanted to try again but it all seems to weird to me now. I think my higher power is trying to tell me something. Or is it my "addiction talking."
Hey man, I appreciate your openness and sincerity. It's a really tricky thing to figure out; on one hand 12 Step meetings are FAR from perfect, there can be a lot of knuckleheads in there, and you can have the experience you describe. On the other hand, it's a tough call when people say they're doing the program and it's not working-as you alluded to with the "is it my addiction talking"-being in denial about some aspect of honesty or willingness can keep the program from working, but hard to tell when you're in it! I just wrote a short eBook i give away for free that's specifically about what you describe "i did the steps and felt like crap." It's called Sobriety's Not Supposed To Suck: A Guide To Finding Excitement, Happiness, ANd Spiritual Fulfillment In Recovery. My point in there is that 1) it's not uncommon to feel like "this sucks", and 2) getting sober's supposed to make you feel good- otherwise why would anybody do it. maybe there's something in there that cpould help. Here's the link: www.jimsavage.net/sobrietyebook
Why dose recovery need to be done in a group? Why can't it be based on an individual?
12 Step recovery is based on what's called "peer-based support." There's a unique dynamic that occurs when one person dealing with the same issue helps another person-in a non-professional way. And the paradox is that helping someone else is actually how the person doing the helping stays sober. You're not thinking about using/drinking when you're helping someone else not drink or use. Having a group of people around you that provide sober support instead of trying to do it alone is quite valuable as well.
Read From the Big book page 42 👍 second paragraph Two alcoholics.... This is how exactly we carry the message
The 12 Steps are outdated imo...It works as some sort of support network or family unit for addicts with a troubled childhood but thats it imo...Even the tetm 'alchcholic ' is outdated now...Unless your Alchahol dependent its Alchchol Use Disorder , a spectrum...
AA. A haven for axis two cluster b personalities spiritually bypassing their way out of truly living like joining a a other clubs like gardening or bicycle or art where the capital I me me me isn't center and foremost but actual adult engagements. Save the the fourteen dollars a week and meet with a licensed counselor once a month and go live a real life
I was sucked into the AA movement at 18. It hijacked my thinking until 35. I have had much more success since leaving but that was difficult as i was brainwashed a bit. But what you say is true indeed. They are followers forever, never grow up and always look down and treat people who disagree like children. Now i stand up to them and i see them all the time in sober cafes in my city. They try to manipulate everyone there into it but run into actual adults and there world collapses and they relapse. Sometimes even calling me crying when drunk but then i never hear from them again. Its a sad program. Misguiding millions.
I am interested. Where can I learn more about your perspective? @garrysmith5562
12-step programs are a joke!😡
80% drop out of the program and die. The 20% who live work a program
You got that right!!! It includes a bunch of labeling and dependency!! It’s a crap show!!
The aa 12 steps is a load of bolax
AA and the 12 Steps suggested as a program of recovery, coupled with CBT, have allowed me to have a happy life for 40 years, since 10-20-83 ... That said, I support whatever works for a person. My brother has been clean and sober now for about 45 years and found his path to sobriety through Christianity. AA works, IF you work it.
I still feel like dying
Don't quit before the miracle happens@@juliewillis9539
No. For me I have experience in 12 step programs and was blamed. I have a mental iĺnrss. It's irresponsible with programs 12 step..unless u want to be manipulated.
The most powerful part of any support group is the result you get from “herd instinct”. People will generally behave and conform to the group of people around them. Associating with drunks makes drinking seem normal and vice versa. It is critical to strive for approval from the type of people you’d like to be.
Good point. "People tend to do what those around them are doing." One of the biggest reasons for poor outcomes following rehab is the fact that while in rehab, clients are surrounded by people talking about recovery, improving their lives, being a better person, healing etc. It's not that hard to get fired up about recovery-while in rehab. The day they leave and go back to their environment, think about the huge dropoff in people around espousing recovery. It's not surprising to lose motivation for recovery when you lose that immersion in people being (or at least talking about being) the kind of person you want to be. That's the point of the whole peer-based support piece. You can't stay in rehab forever; the possibility is there to create your own social support network (herd) that reinforces recovery. But it takes some effort on the individual's part to make that happen.
Completely agree.
Like most things it can take time to really understand and work the 12 steps of AA. The success rate hase dropped over the years and so has the use of the word god. That for me is were the magic of AA truly works letting god into your life and having that connection. X
Magical thinking works for some like you
BS
This is a silly video that shows a lack of understanding of 12 step programs. Personally I do not like them at all for very legit reasons that are not related to the reasons mentioned in this video.
Interesting. Could you clarify for me which parts I don't understand? Thanks
That is the problem. AA is not the only program anymore. AA was too zealous for me and judgmental. But if it worked for you, that's a blessing. Just do not put others down for not finding success in AA and di in another science based program.
@@Art_64 what’s a science based program?
To be fair we probably should distinguish between the program itself and the people, I do think there's a lot of groupthink in 12-step programs and since the majority will have already aligned with those attitudes then even if it's not in the program literature itself it will be embedded in the local culture it's not the greater culture of the program or fellowship. And people who may not agree may not want to rock the boat, after all this is about social support so it's much easier to be a yes-man and talk things up unequivocally.
@@markc5960 The only social support I received was 'Act like us or your not one of us.' There is no room for individuality in AA. Maybe some 12 step programs are better.
A load of outdated nonsence with s poor recovery rate.
Give me a housebound by chronic pain recovery program. None exist. What a shthead speech
I completely acknowledge that chronic pain recovery is a REALLY challenging situation. That's a quite specialized area of recovery and I am certainly not an expert in that. I wish you the best.