Vertical Bifacial Part 2 - Summer results and Reflector Results: ua-cam.com/video/xD1MT-ek05w/v-deo.html Link to Bifacial Solar Panels on my website: projectswithdave.com/solar-panels/ Signature Solar has free shipping on there Solar Panels till 2/27/24: signaturesolar.com/shop-all/solar-panels/?ref=SALE FREE Solar Financial Calculator on my website ProjectsWithDave.com: projectswithdave.com/
9:34 - You touched on it about using reflective rocks, but would a mirror in-front of the vertical panels, or possibly adjacent at a vertical+horizontal angle or a vertically angled curved/conical, solve the mid-day dip in performance? If so, what if the vertical panels are placed in-front of the 45° panels? The light would be reflected towards the vertical panels.
That would be great to compare. If you have sand as a background it would be nice to see how the reflectivity compares. Probably much better than grass but not as good as the snow results.
Hey Will glad to see you here! I just finished watching your last video and this came up as a suggested video. It's hard to know whose information to trust because there are so many people out there doing solar now and you don't know what is safe or isn't safe. So I always look for answers on your channel first LOL
Going to be interesting in the summer because one of the (apparent) advantages of vertical mounting is that they do not get so hot and heat reduces panel output considerably.
@@Zorlig Are you in the States? In the UK where I am now, we can buy 425W longi panels for just less than $100(US) equivalent each (including our 20% tax) and that price includes delivery to the site. What's the price of panels in the US?
@@mb-3faze I lot more than that. They've basically banned the cheap Chinese ones here. I can get a 535 watt Canadian solar bifacial for $203 plus shipping. That's a great joke btw.
I have had similar results with one of my experiments. I use older bifacials, mounted them vertically on a concrete pad and alternately used mirrors and then white paint underneath for reflectivity. The results have been very good, getting as much as 209 watts from 157 watt panels. These were partly cloudy to mostly cloudy days. At midday the numbers were approximately 35% lest than rated. Enjoy your channel immensely!😊
@@stephenbrent2605 I'm going to try this with mine - I have an experimental off grid homestead and used solar all last summer with okay results. I'm going to try using white gravel underneath mine (marble) as it's plentiful where I'm at.
Dave, I am impressed. Your experiment can easily get published in a scientific journal. You had a great approach to a question, performed a rigorous testing, present the data in a clean unbiased way, and told the story fantastically!
It's amazing ppl like you share these things for free with the rest of us, truly what UA-cam is for! Thanks Dave, good research, consise information and great presentation!
@@GilliganRocks the information is free, his making money of us watching it for free doesn't change that right? And I pay premium so it isn't actually free for me 😅
Have you considered testing a south facing vertical panel? My dad's array in northern Michigan is on an adjustable rack. In mid-winter he has them tilted to a few degrees above the horizon and, with the additional reflection of the snow, his system produces far more during the winter than it does during the summer. It also provides the benefit of easily shedding snow, he never has to brush his panels off.
I'd like to see this too. Despite the reduction of diffracted light behind the panel, the effectiveness of the sun-facing panels implies this would be way more effective use for vertically mounted panels too.
@@leifhietala8074 Obviously, but I'm curious whether it would be even better facing south and north instead of west and east. Obviously the backside would be getting less light, but the south-facing horizontal panels won every test until snow covered them so I'd like to know if a south facing vertical panel would be the best of both worlds.
For south facing vertical panels you don't need bifacials, because the added power from adverse side is low. Therefore the overall cost of such installation is much lower and you can mount it simply on walls or fences pointing south.
I think this changes dramatically in the summer and in hotter climates, because from what I've seen so far, the better cooling of the vertical panels also has a huge effect. And especially in places where you would not want to install traditional panels, such as on farmland, it is a great option to install panels at all AND it even provides a better microclimate and conditions for some farms. I guess as always: The mix is important and choosing the right orientation for the individual situation. Thanks for the video and these insights. It's really helpful to see this real life measurement.
Thank you for sharing. You have no idea how much this sort of unbiased information can help people who are not so sure what works and what doesn't. By sharing, you're making a difference to global warming beyond just your array!
will be nice to see if mornings and evenings make a difference in summer with the longer days with sun more behind main array. and also facing south with a white wall behind . the farther north longer sunny days in summer. two shine walls at 45 deg at north post might make a fair difference. i see a lot more tests👍👍
Imagine replacing the wooden fens in gardens with these 😮 it doesnt take much more place, and applied to a whole neighbourhood, it could be significant
This video is nothing less than a profound service to the community. I will be installing solar on property around the 45th parallel, where snow is a very real likelihood throughout much of the winter. It's now crystal clear why bifacial solar panels are the only choice to consider! :)
Thank you Dave. I was following the vertical panel story. Your information here explains a lot. I hope you will continue the research. I’ll be watching.
Im out in New Mexico. I have a former coworker who used bifacials to build a "ramada" but the panels were mounted like 25 feet up. He saw so much gain from a month where snow was on the ground he decided to duplicate it. Painted the concrete pad and then put white painted gravel 15 feet out in evey direction. He is still collecting data but says it looks like a 20% increase
@@old_H you can do mirrors but they are expensive for what you get and require tracking motors. Easier and cheaper to just paint everything some highly reflective color and be done with it. Kind of like why solar tracking solar panels have fallen out of use. It's cheaper to add more panels than do anything fancy to increase their gains However Their is a Russian dude on youtube who does a BUNCH of stuff with mylar blankets and cheap building components. His biggest thing is he built a cheap solar water heater system. It's a long parabolic mirror made of scraps holding a mylar blanket focused on heavy pressure rated pipe. Heats his house in the middle of a harsh Russian winter just using the few hours of sun light they get. I'll look it up and post it in another comment
I look forward to see how the horizontals will work during the hot summer months. I could see how have some in both ways (hybred) could even out different types of weather. The use as a fence opens up alot of possible locations for solar.
I would guess they would also get better result in summer since the sun does not hit the surface as much in the hottest time of the day and are probably better exposed to the wind, cooling them down more.
May not be a great idea, cars kick up a significant amount of dirt and dust, and the panels will need to be cleaned often. Plus you've got a lot of heat coming off of pavement which may not be good for panel life, and you'll have a lot of shading from nearby buildings >3 stories. There are much cheaper and efficient places to put solar panels right now.
@bradleylong3230 Panels are getting so cheap that even with significant shading, I wonder the cost/benefit of using them as back yard fences- those fences can be very pricy.
nlewis1111 thats cause they are grossly subsidized. personal fences are silly and will just get damaged by people, rocks, animals etc not to mention all of the trash these things produce to kill the environment. heating up grass starting fires.
face them vertical facing south, on the north side, you put mirrors on "heliosta'st" (like a solar tracker but directs the light reflected from a mirror onto 1 spot all day long) and focus the light so it hits the entire back side of the panel. this was the panel gets the same sun light on the back side as the front gets! heliostat is usually used to shine the sun into a north facing window or to focus the sun from many mirrors onto 1 spot to heat something in a solar concentrator!
the chart of the vertical panels is great from an energy demand perspective, where you see peaks in morning & evening with dip in the middle...great work!
Thank you!!! I've been contemplating vertical mounted panels on a rig that I could wheel around. I don't have much money (or land) so knowing results of actual tests is VERY valuable to me. Thanks for your thorough testing and detail!!!
@@chublezMobile isnt the same as automated! A wheeled and anchoring rack will get a lot more if you optomize it even only once every few weeks, with minimal added conplexity. But a fully self orienting system is a lot different work.
One of the claims is that horizontal panels start overheating and dropping in efficiency. This clips the output similar to what you mention for an undersized inverter/solar charge controller. You may never experience this loss of efficiency in Ohio even during summer.
This is the explanation I've read. Apparently an extra 2%. Doesn't sound a lot, but for large solar farms, it adds up. Makes sense, as here in the UK, my Solar is most productive April /May. Once we hit June /July they never quite match the early months. Heat I guess
How about a combined array single sided at thirty degrees at the bottom. And bifacial verticals along the top? It puts the bi facials where they can catch the most light from both sides. The single sided units are on top of the ground anyway so very little light gets reflected up under that narrow low triangle. 🤔 Having tried that you might try the same high low line up but you could space your bi facials E-W as well but to get meaningful results you would have to set up the Two new configurations ..they would have to be constructed and run at the same time in the same field.. The panels themselves would also need output calibration checks before and after just in case of any production faults or fall off after installation.
this hype started longer north then ohio A group of researchers at the Netherlands Organisation for Applied Scientific Research (TNO) has conducted a series of tests and simulations to understand why vertical PV systems tend to provide unexpected yield gains compared to horizontal arrays and have found that vertical installations have much lower operating temperatures. after all the panels needs to be black to work best and the lower angle also works better in the northern part of the world im not sure this kind of experiment makes any sense in the equator area
I think horizontal panels will suffer long term, irreversible damage that will reduce their efficiency, while vertical mount panels will have more longevity as they'll suffer less from direct solar ray
There's also the benefit shown at 1:32, way more compact and can be integrated into/onto structures, if you're going to build a barn/vehicle shed anyway.
I have found the same thing in my testing. Not having to clean snow off my panels is a huge benefit to me. I live in northern Montana. Sometimes I have to clean my south facing panels several times a day.
Way up there it would be great to see the results after a year of half the panels hung vertically facing south vs whatever racks you have. Seems like a simple idea to replace long fence lines with vertical panels, low maintenance and no land lost.
i guess it would depend on where you use it and how many you could fit in. i do like the idea of using them as fence panel or even on the wall of industrial buildings.
Looks great Dave. Be sure to look into vineyard trellis orientations (which prefer NS rows, like your panels facing EW, with spacing between rows set to maximize light/minimize row to row shading). Putting cattle around solar panels as one photo showed will be problematic as the cattle will scratch against and destroy the posts and panels, which may mean a higher mounting solution so the cattle only hit the posts, but does the ground reflected light reach high mounted panels? Same if growing corn or sunflowers between panels so may be limited to short crops like beans. What crops are most/least light reflective? Which livestock are most light reflective (white chickens and ducks!).
White birds, I love it! 😂 I agree cows may not be a great livestock for solar panels. Also tall crops like corn would not make sense. Grains, maybe soybeans. Someone needs to do a crop performance comparison. I would like to know if the reduced sun exposure is enough to significantly reduce crop production. Seems like the crops that would work well with solar would be a limited list.
@@ProjectsWithDave I doubt there is any reduced light exposure for crops. You might even have a longer winter growing day with the early morning and late afternoon reflected light from the panels
If you could install a temporary electrical shock on the panels it would not take long for the cattle stop touching them. On electric fences they learn pretty quick. One or two snaps and they won’t go back and you can shut the power off.
@freddymax5256 That's exactly what I was going to say. Should be pretty easy to incorporate since you have an electricity source right there. The other major advantage is that Nimbyism has to be greatly reduced. How could people complain about a fence? Not like barbed wire or electric fences are things of beauty.
I do wonder how they get the right series/parallel voltages. Seems like you would have some issues with extremely long wire runs/unbalanced voltage drops.
Need to see another one of these done in summer when heat is causing reduced efficiency. I wonder how much the added air flow helps vertical orientation compared to south-facing panels.
Awesome test. During the summer I would have the front of the every panel facing west. For me, anyway, this would be nice because my air conditioning runs at night and it would be awesome to have that extra solar boost right before the sun goes down. In the morning it's cool so I don't need the air conditioner at that time.
Not likely a problem in the cold areas, but sun heating of horizontal panels is also a factor because as the panels get hotter, their output goes down. From what I have heard, the reduced output due to hot panels is another plus for vertical panels. they don't heat up as much.
Research simulations also theorizes their is an increase of cooling because one side is in shade. Also the vertical arrangment creates a kind of "chimney" effect in the air allowing more passive coolsing.
This is a point I'd like to see tested as I've seen that research too. Everyone is on about spreading the output and the albedo which is great. But I am most excited about the cooling as heat is the big enemy in solar output and lifespan
What you brought up is amazing. I love simplicity and you dig into core. Definitely bifacial panel is something which needs attenation and broadens user cases for installation. Thanks for making an effort to share your findings. Cheers.
Spent my first 40 years in the Cleveland, OH area and the past 20 in the Phoenix, AZ area. There does come a point where we start praying for cloudy days :-) Would loved to have seen the output results from horizontally mounted panels or horizontal minus 10 degrees towards the South during the winter solstice. Thinking about building a pergola type structure in the back yard and using bi-facial panels for the top of the pergola. The pergola would be 11' on one end and around 7' on the other which gives me about 10 degrees of slope over the length. Would provide some much needed filtered shade from the sun as well as power my house. Unlike your situation, I need the most power during the summer months for cooling. I really do enjoy and look forward to your videos. Thanks for taking us along on your journey.
buildings with round roofs provide all angels needed for all seasons.. we need to start to build our houses so the look like greenhouse tunnels a garden rack would probetly also make sense to some people in a more round/bended version
Interesting. I spent my first 28 in Phoenix and my last 36 in Cleveland. I actually prefer Cleveland weather. Summers are really nice and in winter I can put on an extra layer if it gets cold. In Phoenix there is an absolute limit on how much I could take off. The one thing I absolutely do miss about Arizona is the mountains and the long distances to the horizon. In my last house in Phoenix I could lay in bed and see 4 Peaks 40 miles away through my bedroom window, or standing on top of Camelback Mountain and see the entire city. Here in the western suburbs of Cleveland, the horizon is the first row of trees. A person can get a little claustrophobic and so every couple of years I have to go back if just to get my "mountain fix" as my wife calls it. BTW, love the idea of a putting a pitch on the roof of a pergola as a place to put 100 ft2 or so of solar cells.
@@papparocket Grew up on the West side of Cleveland in Lakewood. Now live in Mesa. One of the first things you notice here is how far you can see. At night, from our back yard, we show visitors the red tower lights on South Mountain and they are in disbelief when I tell them those towers are 26 miles away.
Using them as fencing is an interesting synergy of use. I could use a small pen and this might work. Over time I think I will slowly replace the E-W axis with panels
I wouldn't stand right next the the stake being driven into the ground by the bucket... hold it with a pole or a piece of strut from a distance. Far too many things that could break, snap, or slip and result in an ER visit.
I'm exited here about the residential potential. The ability to mount panels to cover previously unused surfaces, like walls, doors, fence replacement. Great video!
You and @UndecidedMF seem to be mind-readers lately. One scenario that you should test (I may have missed it) - vertical-mount panels for people that don't have a good view to the south. If I understood correctly, your panels are facing east/west. Suddenly, ground-mount-with-white-stones might be an option for a ton of new customers.
Thank you for both your research and your data you shared with us! I could see in a small older home that was built before 1950 on a small lot where both systems could work? I do think where the vertical solar panels could be cooled with water to increase there energy production on an extremely hot day! I am no expert I have been trying to understand solar energy power production for the last four years.
There is no perfect solution, at some point you just have to decide if it makes sense for you or not and move forward. I installed a system and realized later I could have done it much cheaper, but because I moved forward it is now payed off and producing free power. You can see my video going over my mistake here: ua-cam.com/video/nC7i_GSrGlk/v-deo.html
Anyone tried this on a hill or mountain where you have clear visibility to the horizon below you east and west? I’d guess that it would dramatically expand harvest and change the metric. But would love to know for sure.
I've noticed something that NO ONE does even when they have tons of room like you. Space bifacials 6" or so from each other allowing lots of sun to reflect on the back (of course using white rock underneath would maximize benefits). Shading problem solved! It also relieves some wind force. Small scale testing could be done with plywood used to simulate panels on the edges. Vary the gap size to see what's the best size vs performance curve. I bet on sunny days there's a huge boost.
How so? Most people don't have more than 20 panels (double row so 10 wide). Total width would only increase 4.5 ft with 6" gaps. Yours would increase 9.5 ft, but with all the money you spent on that metal, it's not much of an increase, especially if your output is boosted 25% in winter. (looks like you'd have to add in 2 more sections). DIY wood mount would be negligible increase.
Honestly this the first channel where someone got into his mind to make his own lab to testing PV panels performances, according different factors including positions (Vertical, leaning, East, West...). Really I enjoyed watching that video. I wanted to make the same test unfortunately I have no yard...What about the optimizes? How do you qualify them in increasing production? You gave us a huge informations where even no one did before...Big thanks
Thanks! I would not use optimizers in this setup, they just add cost. I need them to monitor performance at the individual panel level and they allow me to have panels facing all different directions connected to the same inverter.
I have a small 12v 400w setup , two 150w standard and one 100w bi facial . Since installing the bifacial I definitely see a difrence I my collection on those cloudy winter days
@@evrythingis1 So everyone is a Boomer? You just wrote that anyone who can watch with ads are children and boomers. I say to buy a subscription, then you call me Boomer too? So who is it? 😂😂
By looking at those graphs i would have it pointing to the sky, the standing test leaves A LOT of lost KWH. Thinking that it could be nice for a privacy fence replacement, or general fence replacement.
I am in Wasilla and was thinking about putting some of these panels in. I dont have a ton of usable space for something like this on my acre lot. So I think these might be the perfect solution. Especially since winter is when I need power the most.
Very interesting results. We live in Alaska and the arc of our summer sun is over 180 degrees from east to west. We can get a solid 12 hours of good solar sun for three months during summer. But, our 24 panel system facing due south receives 5-7 hours max. With vertical mounted bifacial we could probably capture another 5-7 hours? Unfortunately, the amount of sun we capture in the winter is almost 0% from Nov-March. The sun angle averages from 9 degrees to approx 12 degrees off the horizon and I think bifacial panels would be a wash in the winter. I am looking forward to your next experiments and results.
I’ve had separate arrays on my East, West, and South facing roofs for about 7 years because I live in a municipality that didn’t have grid-tie solar so I just use it throughout the day and wanted even power production. The East and West total 18 panels with 9 on each side and the South facing is 18 panels. The East+West outperform the South facing, significantly. So treating the East+West as bifacial and taking out the tilt, I could see it performing similar to pure south pointed panels. (In the northern hemisphere obviously)
I worked on a guy's system by the ocean. We installed a newer, bigger system with conventially mounted panels, and we laughed at his two older vertically mounted panels (Maybe tilted 15 degrees or so). We figured he must make little to nothing off them. I asked him about them, and he said theyre hooked up only to the hot water heater, and they make all the hot water he needs. The power of the sun bouncing off the water is not to be underestimated!
Latitude matters, higher the better. Higher DC/AC ratios also help, especially with storage. Vertical bifacial reduce installed normal operating temperature (iNOCT) short circuit current (Isc) and max Isc considerably Electrical balance of system (BOS) is reduced 25%. Presented at NREL on these comparisons, energyideas.
Maybe, maybe. See also: Solar power plant mounted in multi-storey building! (for survivors in the zombie apocalypse): Shorts version: ua-cam.com/video/k9AiiCLALRA/v-deo.html Full version: ua-cam.com/video/sOskjOsl-cA/v-deo.html
In orchards, they often lay white tarpaulin material down the rows to get color on the apples. One could utilize this material to bolster the output on the non snowy days… And he’s talking about the same idea now 😂 only white rock.
Thanks for posting this. The verticle option is exciting from the perspective of dual use in agricultural settings. I have heard the term agro-voltics used to describe it. I'm also intrigued by the results because I have a few locations where I could have a verticle array with the back side not accessible to sunlight (the vertical south-facing side of a building.) While payback would be much longer, it could still be worthwhile. I'm not far from Camp Ravenna in Ohio, whose site was chosen because it's the 5th cloudiest place in the US east of the Mississippi. I chose to install panels on both the north and south roofs of a building (I don't have good locations for a ground mount), and because of the cloud cover, I often see similar output from both arrays.
Good to see you got to test this - I mentioned vertical arrays in your comments a year or so ago. I saw another video on vertical a couple days ago that pointed out one key advantage to vertical panels - morning and evening temperatures are lower than mid-day - the decreased panel efficiency due to panel temperature was limiting the south-facing panels versus the vertical tests. I think the temperature related losses amounted to 3%.
I have my solar panels mounted vertically. My rationalization is reflection from snow cover much of the year and my northern latitude coupled with my non-ideal site. Interesting to have another justification to add to the list. I farm.
Vertical solar panels really thrive in case of optimizing power generation per area. Since they need less space, ypu can put more of them on less space, and therefore produce more power on the same area as standard panels.
I think longevity for panels is increased in high sun areas like the desert as the vertical panels stay cooler. Something your area doesn't have an issue with.
Excellent!! I would love to see this compared with "winter sun" optimized panels (almost vertical) facing South in North America. (or North in Australia) In a perfect world testing them in against walls vs bifacial in the open.
Yes, I would even say that with this shadow thing, I wonder what the impact is of changing the angle of a bifacial N/S between 30 -> 90 degrees. If we are logical, if the rear side looks out of its own shadow to use the reflection of the sun on the snow and take advantage of the angle to make the snow fall more easily, it should in theory be more effective.
Dave... I'd like to see you do a test, facing a couple of panels East (at a 30° angle) and a couple West (at 30°) I'm getting 4 extra hours a day of good hard sun from sunrise, to noon, and sunset.
Thank you for doing this research! I'm very curious about the full year performance, as well as long-term-snow performance. It definitely seems like in heavy-snowfall areas, vertical panels might be the best bet. Or, areas where space is a consideration... the increased predictability on the vertical panels' performance across varied weather could be helpful (since variability is the most "questionable" part of renewables). But, would good storage of summer energy be sufficient to offset the variability of cloudy or winter months? Or will these panels perform even better in the summer? Only time will tell--and you're doing the hard work to get us the answers. Thank you!! 🙏🙏🙏
I have mounted my 12 kw panels on rotating frames. I turn the panels facing east in the morning, north at mid day and west in the afternoon. Doing that allow me to utilize the sun to the fullest.
I looked this up because I'm interested in mounting bifacial panels vertically on a white standing-seam roof. I'm highly encouraged by these results; basically, every day should be like your snowy days. If I do it right, I think I can get around the problem that the long side of the building is not oriented to solar south.
Thanks for the testing, I did notice that the big array is casting a shadow in front of the verticals at 9:27. I doubt this would be a killer but I am curious about how much the shadowing was affecting the verticals. From my understanding the benefit was really about heat dissipation and efficiency loss in the hotter months. I think what this setup would be best for is if you didn't have space for a array on you property and the only other option was roof mounted. Can't wait to see some testing in the hot months, i would like to see a comparison of south facing in the summer on a black roof vs verticals. From your testing I am already coming to the theory that the verticals will beat the standard panels.
@@ProjectsWithDave So i am thinking the hype is coming from roof mounted vs bifacial vertical. The efficiency loss from heat is telling me this experiment will be interesting. The drop in efficiency vs the panel temp is where I see that it may be a win, depending on what setup and the the average temperatures. I am not surprised that your bi facials outperform the verticals on a frame. So from the simulations I saw it indicated they would experience losses at certain times of the year. Think the key is going to be if is when the increased cooling actually offsets the the poor angle.
Pretty cool results. So the takeaway is that vertical panels produce a lot less power, but it's more stable over a range of weather conditions, they produce the same duck curve as the power consumption does, are not sensitive to snow accumulation, and take up almost 0 acreage (with an asterisk).
Great to see your test results in my part of the country , northeast Ohio. Too many videos are posting test results in the south where sunny days are prevalent. Thx Dave
You should also think about optimizing the average during the year. For this, vertical panels facing south will be best. Because in the summer you always have enough energy, but in winter the energy from a low sun will be maximized and you will have almost no snow on the panels.
Love to see that vertical panels are pretty decent, since they don't get snowed on. Here in canada we've still got snow today in mid april, so it's either vertical or nothing ig
Great video - but as others have stated - supposedly the biggest gains are in the summer in hot climates - where the vertical panels do not get as hot. Will be interested to see our results then. thanks for the video.
Not sure abot how your electricity price works over there but in Sweden, there is always a big dip at noon every day and during the summer. I have wall mounted panels and If I includes the price, it produces more value than a roof mounted system as I get more energy in the fall, spring and winter. I will now add more vertical panels the the west as price in the afternoon and early evening is highest.
Excellent video, it really seems like as panel prices drop it will make sense to just stick them to any unused surface and collect every drip of solar energy. The future is so awesome.
I was wondering this myself. I live 53° north, and the summer sun rises in the northeast. It made me wonder about flat or vertical installs in the summer. I can't wait to see what you get!
Vertical Bifacial Part 2 - Summer results and Reflector Results: ua-cam.com/video/xD1MT-ek05w/v-deo.html
Link to Bifacial Solar Panels on my website: projectswithdave.com/solar-panels/
Signature Solar has free shipping on there Solar Panels till 2/27/24: signaturesolar.com/shop-all/solar-panels/?ref=SALE
FREE Solar Financial Calculator on my website ProjectsWithDave.com: projectswithdave.com/
why not south north?
9:34 - You touched on it about using reflective rocks, but would a mirror in-front of the vertical panels, or possibly adjacent at a vertical+horizontal angle or a vertically angled curved/conical, solve the mid-day dip in performance? If so, what if the vertical panels are placed in-front of the 45° panels? The light would be reflected towards the vertical panels.
@@BackFlippingBaldi2391 yes, north/ south would be best in winter,. Would not collect much in longer days though. Just turn them twice a year
@@BackFlippingBaldi2391 because your able to put up more rows w,o interfering with the other's light, Nor do you get the reflection benefits.
I really need to write a script for this with how often I seem to be replying to videos on this...
So glad you got to test this!!! Awesome results. Especially with the snow on the ground. I need to do a desert, high temp test
That would be great to compare. If you have sand as a background it would be nice to see how the reflectivity compares. Probably much better than grass but not as good as the snow results.
Desert would have the reflectivity too, so it should be interesting
One interesting thing i read about vertical bifacials is they stay cooler under midday sun, thus suffering less power loss at noon.
Hey Will glad to see you here!
I just finished watching your last video and this came up as a suggested video.
It's hard to know whose information to trust because there are so many people out there doing solar now and you don't know what is safe or isn't safe. So I always look for answers on your channel first LOL
I'm wondering if we'll see better results in hotter climates? With the panels not directly facing the sun they may run "cooler" and perform better.
Going to be interesting in the summer because one of the (apparent) advantages of vertical mounting is that they do not get so hot and heat reduces panel output considerably.
I'll track it and see what happens.
They don't get as hot because they don't get as much sun :)
@@Zorlig There's a joke that because the panels like being cool the best place for them is in the shade😊
@@Zorlig Are you in the States? In the UK where I am now, we can buy 425W longi panels for just less than $100(US) equivalent each (including our 20% tax) and that price includes delivery to the site. What's the price of panels in the US?
@@mb-3faze I lot more than that. They've basically banned the cheap Chinese ones here. I can get a 535 watt Canadian solar bifacial for $203 plus shipping. That's a great joke btw.
I have had similar results with one of my experiments. I use older bifacials, mounted them vertically on a concrete pad and alternately used mirrors and then white paint underneath for reflectivity. The results have been very good, getting as much as 209 watts from 157 watt panels. These were partly cloudy to mostly cloudy days. At midday the numbers were approximately 35% lest than rated. Enjoy your channel immensely!😊
Nice! Thanks for posting your results!
Do you find that you get more watt hours total over the course of the day?
What if you gave them a slight tilt? Say there’s a hinge point at the top and the panel could swing 15 deg both ways as the sun passes overhead?
@@Tailss1 yes, 15 to 43% more depending on conditions. I am still fine tuning my setup so I keep making small changes from time to time.
@@stephenbrent2605 I'm going to try this with mine - I have an experimental off grid homestead and used solar all last summer with okay results. I'm going to try using white gravel underneath mine (marble) as it's plentiful where I'm at.
I think this is amazing the amount of cleaning and hail damage are almost enough to switch
Dave, I am impressed. Your experiment can easily get published in a scientific journal. You had a great approach to a question, performed a rigorous testing, present the data in a clean unbiased way, and told the story fantastically!
Publish Dave! Get credit for your effort.
It's amazing ppl like you share these things for free with the rest of us, truly what UA-cam is for! Thanks Dave, good research, consise information and great presentation!
Thanks!
I mean, he is making money off the affiliate links and views, so not completely altruistically.
Which I'm 100% for just saying facts.
@@GilliganRocks the information is free, his making money of us watching it for free doesn't change that right?
And I pay premium so it isn't actually free for me 😅
This kind of direct, data driven, to the point video is an absolute credit to the creator and one of the only reasons I still bother with youtube.
Have you considered testing a south facing vertical panel? My dad's array in northern Michigan is on an adjustable rack. In mid-winter he has them tilted to a few degrees above the horizon and, with the additional reflection of the snow, his system produces far more during the winter than it does during the summer. It also provides the benefit of easily shedding snow, he never has to brush his panels off.
I'd like to see this too. Despite the reduction of diffracted light behind the panel, the effectiveness of the sun-facing panels implies this would be way more effective use for vertically mounted panels too.
I bet some of his improved performance is due to the cooler operation of the panel in winter.
@@leifhietala8074 Obviously, but I'm curious whether it would be even better facing south and north instead of west and east. Obviously the backside would be getting less light, but the south-facing horizontal panels won every test until snow covered them so I'd like to know if a south facing vertical panel would be the best of both worlds.
For south facing vertical panels you don't need bifacials, because the added power from adverse side is low. Therefore the overall cost of such installation is much lower and you can mount it simply on walls or fences pointing south.
I'm also curious about sun tracking panels. I'm guessing the additional infrastructure makes it not worth it, but I would love to see the data.
I think this changes dramatically in the summer and in hotter climates, because from what I've seen so far, the better cooling of the vertical panels also has a huge effect. And especially in places where you would not want to install traditional panels, such as on farmland, it is a great option to install panels at all AND it even provides a better microclimate and conditions for some farms. I guess as always: The mix is important and choosing the right orientation for the individual situation. Thanks for the video and these insights. It's really helpful to see this real life measurement.
Thank you for sharing. You have no idea how much this sort of unbiased information can help people who are not so sure what works and what doesn't. By sharing, you're making a difference to global warming beyond just your array!
Glad it was helpful!
Add mirrors great results
It will be interesting to see summer results in higher temperatures. Great video, Thanks
Yes, I'm curious. I may take temperature data on both panel orientations to see if there is a significant difference.
will be nice to see if mornings and evenings make a difference in summer with the longer days with sun more behind main array. and also facing south with a white wall behind . the farther north longer sunny days in summer. two shine walls at 45 deg at north post might make a fair difference. i see a lot more tests👍👍
@@ProjectsWithDave Temp monitoring is a great idea! I'd like to see the results, so I've subscribed!
Imagine replacing the wooden fens in gardens with these 😮 it doesnt take much more place, and applied to a whole neighbourhood, it could be significant
This video is nothing less than a profound service to the community. I will be installing solar on property around the 45th parallel, where snow is a very real likelihood throughout much of the winter. It's now crystal clear why bifacial solar panels are the only choice to consider! :)
I'm glad this data was helpful for you!
On the Utility scale it’s all you can buy
Thank you Dave. I was following the vertical panel story. Your information here explains a lot. I hope you will continue the research. I’ll be watching.
That's the great thing about the solar industry, it's constantly changing and improving. Always lots to study. 😀
Dave - thank you. This is literally the first youtube video I've ever seen about solar where someone actually knew what they were talking about.
Im out in New Mexico. I have a former coworker who used bifacials to build a "ramada" but the panels were mounted like 25 feet up. He saw so much gain from a month where snow was on the ground he decided to duplicate it. Painted the concrete pad and then put white painted gravel 15 feet out in evey direction. He is still collecting data but says it looks like a 20% increase
what about installing mirrors on the ground?
@@old_H you can do mirrors but they are expensive for what you get and require tracking motors. Easier and cheaper to just paint everything some highly reflective color and be done with it. Kind of like why solar tracking solar panels have fallen out of use. It's cheaper to add more panels than do anything fancy to increase their gains
However Their is a Russian dude on youtube who does a BUNCH of stuff with mylar blankets and cheap building components. His biggest thing is he built a cheap solar water heater system. It's a long parabolic mirror made of scraps holding a mylar blanket focused on heavy pressure rated pipe. Heats his house in the middle of a harsh Russian winter just using the few hours of sun light they get. I'll look it up and post it in another comment
So for most home-users just normal south-facing on the roof and a bit vertical east-west to push up the morning/evening power.
Especially for snow it's amazing because it reflect so much
Thanks for the awesome science! So many youtubers are doing the hype pieces, but you put in some real work to bring us the raw data.
I look forward to see how the horizontals will work during the hot summer months. I could see how have some in both ways (hybred) could even out different types of weather. The use as a fence opens up alot of possible locations for solar.
I would guess they would also get better result in summer since the sun does not hit the surface as much in the hottest time of the day and are probably better exposed to the wind, cooling them down more.
I love seeing vertical bi-facial panels used as fencing. It would be cool to see them between bike lanes and car lanes.
May not be a great idea, cars kick up a significant amount of dirt and dust, and the panels will need to be cleaned often. Plus you've got a lot of heat coming off of pavement which may not be good for panel life, and you'll have a lot of shading from nearby buildings >3 stories. There are much cheaper and efficient places to put solar panels right now.
@bradleylong3230 Panels are getting so cheap that even with significant shading, I wonder the cost/benefit of using them as back yard fences- those fences can be very pricy.
nlewis1111 thats cause they are grossly subsidized. personal fences are silly and will just get damaged by people, rocks, animals etc not to mention all of the trash these things produce to kill the environment. heating up grass starting fires.
I like your pile driver; the Kubota with a bucket full of rocks!
when you are all out of cave trolls its the next best thing .... unknown orcish engineer ^^
face them vertical facing south, on the north side, you put mirrors on "heliosta'st" (like a solar tracker but directs the light reflected from a mirror onto 1 spot all day long) and focus the light so it hits the entire back side of the panel.
this was the panel gets the same sun light on the back side as the front gets!
heliostat is usually used to shine the sun into a north facing window or to focus the sun from many mirrors onto 1 spot to heat something in a solar concentrator!
Good Idea but heliostats are expensive and for diy you need knowledge and/or adjust Them from time to time.
Add more panels instead of heliostats?
the chart of the vertical panels is great from an energy demand perspective, where you see peaks in morning & evening with dip in the middle...great work!
Thanks!
Yes this is what I thought, grid scale solar where it fits with a regional demand for power, less requirement for storage.
Thank you!!! I've been contemplating vertical mounted panels on a rig that I could wheel around. I don't have much money (or land) so knowing results of actual tests is VERY valuable to me. Thanks for your thorough testing and detail!!!
Glad I could help!
If you're doing a mobile rig why not just face the sun? These solutions seem tailored for permanent installation.
@@chublezMobile isnt the same as automated!
A wheeled and anchoring rack will get a lot more if you optomize it even only once every few weeks, with minimal added conplexity.
But a fully self orienting system is a lot different work.
One of the claims is that horizontal panels start overheating and dropping in efficiency. This clips the output similar to what you mention for an undersized inverter/solar charge controller. You may never experience this loss of efficiency in Ohio even during summer.
Our summers aren't supper hot, but probably hot enough to see the effect and extrapolate. I'll collect some data this summer.
This is the explanation I've read. Apparently an extra 2%.
Doesn't sound a lot, but for large solar farms, it adds up.
Makes sense, as here in the UK, my Solar is most productive April /May.
Once we hit June /July they never quite match the early months.
Heat I guess
How about a combined array single sided at thirty degrees at the bottom. And bifacial verticals along the top? It puts the bi facials where they can catch the most light from both sides. The single sided units are on top of the ground anyway so very little light gets reflected up under that narrow low triangle. 🤔
Having tried that you might try the same high low line up but you could space your bi facials E-W as well but to get meaningful results you would have to set up the Two new configurations ..they would have to be constructed and run at the same time in the same field..
The panels themselves would also need output calibration checks before and after just in case of any production faults or fall off after installation.
this hype started longer north then ohio
A group of researchers at the Netherlands Organisation for Applied Scientific Research (TNO) has conducted a series of tests and simulations to understand why vertical PV systems tend to provide unexpected yield gains compared to horizontal arrays and have found that vertical installations have much lower operating temperatures.
after all the panels needs to be black to work best and the lower angle also works better in the northern part of the world
im not sure this kind of experiment makes any sense in the equator area
I think horizontal panels will suffer long term, irreversible damage that will reduce their efficiency, while vertical mount panels will have more longevity as they'll suffer less from direct solar ray
There's also the benefit shown at 1:32, way more compact and can be integrated into/onto structures, if you're going to build a barn/vehicle shed anyway.
Really looking forward to seeing the summer results
I have found the same thing in my testing. Not having to clean snow off my panels is a huge benefit to me. I live in northern Montana. Sometimes I have to clean my south facing panels several times a day.
Way up there it would be great to see the results after a year of half the panels hung vertically facing south vs whatever racks you have. Seems like a simple idea to replace long fence lines with vertical panels, low maintenance and no land lost.
OUTSTANDING topic and FANTASTIC presentation!!!!!!
IMPRESSIVE Dave!!
Thanks, glad you liked it!
i guess it would depend on where you use it and how many you could fit in.
i do like the idea of using them as fence panel or even on the wall of industrial buildings.
Interesting.
Great to see the tech in solar is alive and well!
your channel is so valuable to all who view it! Thank you.
I appreciate that!
Solar fencing sounds like a great solution for suburbs and possibly some livestock farming (ie goats, sheep and fowl)
My understanding is that vertical panels out perform because they don't get as hot. Winter air is going to mitigate that advantage quite a bit.
Most of us mount on roofs so an interesting comparison would be vertical panels in comparison to the "standard" installation.
@rolandjarrett611 I don't think vertical panels are competing with roof installation though.
It’s wonderful to see openminded people.
Very interesting.
Looks great Dave. Be sure to look into vineyard trellis orientations (which prefer NS rows, like your panels facing EW, with spacing between rows set to maximize light/minimize row to row shading). Putting cattle around solar panels as one photo showed will be problematic as the cattle will scratch against and destroy the posts and panels, which may mean a higher mounting solution so the cattle only hit the posts, but does the ground reflected light reach high mounted panels? Same if growing corn or sunflowers between panels so may be limited to short crops like beans. What crops are most/least light reflective? Which livestock are most light reflective (white chickens and ducks!).
White birds, I love it! 😂
I agree cows may not be a great livestock for solar panels. Also tall crops like corn would not make sense. Grains, maybe soybeans. Someone needs to do a crop performance comparison. I would like to know if the reduced sun exposure is enough to significantly reduce crop production. Seems like the crops that would work well with solar would be a limited list.
@@ProjectsWithDave I doubt there is any reduced light exposure for crops. You might even have a longer winter growing day with the early morning and late afternoon reflected light from the panels
If you could install a temporary electrical shock on the panels it would not take long for the cattle stop touching them. On electric fences they learn pretty quick. One or two snaps and they won’t go back and you can shut the power off.
@freddymax5256 That's exactly what I was going to say. Should be pretty easy to incorporate since you have an electricity source right there.
The other major advantage is that Nimbyism has to be greatly reduced. How could people complain about a fence? Not like barbed wire or electric fences are things of beauty.
I do wonder how they get the right series/parallel voltages. Seems like you would have some issues with extremely long wire runs/unbalanced voltage drops.
Need to see another one of these done in summer when heat is causing reduced efficiency. I wonder how much the added air flow helps vertical orientation compared to south-facing panels.
Awesome test. During the summer I would have the front of the every panel facing west. For me, anyway, this would be nice because my air conditioning runs at night and it would be awesome to have that extra solar boost right before the sun goes down. In the morning it's cool so I don't need the air conditioner at that time.
Not likely a problem in the cold areas, but sun heating of horizontal panels is also a factor because as the panels get hotter, their output goes down. From what I have heard, the reduced output due to hot panels is another plus for vertical panels. they don't heat up as much.
Research simulations also theorizes their is an increase of cooling because one side is in shade. Also the vertical arrangment creates a kind of "chimney" effect in the air allowing more passive coolsing.
This is a point I'd like to see tested as I've seen that research too. Everyone is on about spreading the output and the albedo which is great. But I am most excited about the cooling as heat is the big enemy in solar output and lifespan
The chimney effect is probably significant.
@@ProjectsWithDave how about the impact of wind?
What you brought up is amazing. I love simplicity and you dig into core. Definitely bifacial panel is something which needs attenation and broadens user cases for installation. Thanks for making an effort to share your findings. Cheers.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Spent my first 40 years in the Cleveland, OH area and the past 20 in the Phoenix, AZ area. There does come a point where we start praying for cloudy days :-) Would loved to have seen the output results from horizontally mounted panels or horizontal minus 10 degrees towards the South during the winter solstice. Thinking about building a pergola type structure in the back yard and using bi-facial panels for the top of the pergola. The pergola would be 11' on one end and around 7' on the other which gives me about 10 degrees of slope over the length. Would provide some much needed filtered shade from the sun as well as power my house. Unlike your situation, I need the most power during the summer months for cooling. I really do enjoy and look forward to your videos. Thanks for taking us along on your journey.
Great idea, I'll consider how to test this for a future video.
buildings with round roofs provide all angels needed for all seasons..
we need to start to build our houses so the look like greenhouse tunnels
a garden rack would probetly also make sense to some people in a more round/bended version
Interesting. I spent my first 28 in Phoenix and my last 36 in Cleveland. I actually prefer Cleveland weather. Summers are really nice and in winter I can put on an extra layer if it gets cold. In Phoenix there is an absolute limit on how much I could take off. The one thing I absolutely do miss about Arizona is the mountains and the long distances to the horizon. In my last house in Phoenix I could lay in bed and see 4 Peaks 40 miles away through my bedroom window, or standing on top of Camelback Mountain and see the entire city. Here in the western suburbs of Cleveland, the horizon is the first row of trees. A person can get a little claustrophobic and so every couple of years I have to go back if just to get my "mountain fix" as my wife calls it.
BTW, love the idea of a putting a pitch on the roof of a pergola as a place to put 100 ft2 or so of solar cells.
@@papparocket Grew up on the West side of Cleveland in Lakewood. Now live in Mesa. One of the first things you notice here is how far you can see. At night, from our back yard, we show visitors the red tower lights on South Mountain and they are in disbelief when I tell them those towers are 26 miles away.
@@NitePHX I grew up in Scottsdale and now live in Westlake.
Using them as fencing is an interesting synergy of use. I could use a small pen and this might work. Over time I think I will slowly replace the E-W axis with panels
I wouldn't stand right next the the stake being driven into the ground by the bucket... hold it with a pole or a piece of strut from a distance. Far too many things that could break, snap, or slip and result in an ER visit.
I'm exited here about the residential potential. The ability to mount panels to cover previously unused surfaces, like walls, doors, fence replacement. Great video!
You and @UndecidedMF seem to be mind-readers lately.
One scenario that you should test (I may have missed it) - vertical-mount panels for people that don't have a good view to the south. If I understood correctly, your panels are facing east/west. Suddenly, ground-mount-with-white-stones might be an option for a ton of new customers.
They face E/W but you still need sun exposure from the south.
Thank you for both your research and your data you shared with us! I could see in a small older home that was built before 1950 on a small lot where both systems could work? I do think where the vertical solar panels could be cooled with water to increase there energy production on an extremely hot day!
I am no expert I have been trying to understand solar energy power production for the last four years.
There is no perfect solution, at some point you just have to decide if it makes sense for you or not and move forward. I installed a system and realized later I could have done it much cheaper, but because I moved forward it is now payed off and producing free power. You can see my video going over my mistake here: ua-cam.com/video/nC7i_GSrGlk/v-deo.html
Anyone tried this on a hill or mountain where you have clear visibility to the horizon below you east and west? I’d guess that it would dramatically expand harvest and change the metric.
But would love to know for sure.
Also probably a good place for a wind turbine.
@@nlewis1111 they’re basically never worth it at small scale.
Fascinating. Perhaps the further north you are the more vertical a solar panel should be? Smart testing guys.
Seems like a reasonable conclusion.
I've noticed something that NO ONE does even when they have tons of room like you. Space bifacials 6" or so from each other allowing lots of sun to reflect on the back (of course using white rock underneath would maximize benefits). Shading problem solved! It also relieves some wind force.
Small scale testing could be done with plywood used to simulate panels on the edges. Vary the gap size to see what's the best size vs performance curve. I bet on sunny days there's a huge boost.
It makes racking them more complex and expensive, though.
I believe the increased cost of racking would negate any benefit.
How so? Most people don't have more than 20 panels (double row so 10 wide). Total width would only increase 4.5 ft with 6" gaps.
Yours would increase 9.5 ft, but with all the money you spent on that metal, it's not much of an increase, especially if your output is boosted 25% in winter. (looks like you'd have to add in 2 more sections).
DIY wood mount would be negligible increase.
@@TheGuruStud DIY wood mount would also be worthless.
what I miss is multiple rows of vertical panels to see if the second row reflects back to the first panel.
but all in all thanks for compering theme
There are some larger studies with that information. I will likely included some of that analysis in my summer follow-up video.
I think that there is a good combo for your weather: 60º panels in East/West azimuth, like the vertical ones.
Very good and clear info, thanks a lot.
Thank You for supporting Solar and for All that you are doing for our Planet Earth....
Peace.. Shalom.. Salam.. Namaste 🙏🏻 😊 🌈 ✌ ☮ ❤
Honestly this the first channel where someone got into his mind to make his own lab to testing PV panels performances, according different factors including positions (Vertical, leaning, East, West...). Really I enjoyed watching that video. I wanted to make the same test unfortunately I have no yard...What about the optimizes? How do you qualify them in increasing production? You gave us a huge informations where even no one did before...Big thanks
Thanks! I would not use optimizers in this setup, they just add cost. I need them to monitor performance at the individual panel level and they allow me to have panels facing all different directions connected to the same inverter.
Put some Mirrors 🪞 on the ground
I want to see that
Or two tilted 3"x36" mounted just under the panel off the ground.
Great idea
Water will do.
@@jasonz7788Are you going to pay for the silver?
I have a small 12v 400w setup , two 150w standard and one 100w bi facial . Since installing the bifacial I definitely see a difrence I my collection on those cloudy winter days
Thanks for posting. As you have experienced, bifacial panels shine in cloudy weather.
How do yall watch these videos without ad blockers? It would be insufferable
The only people who can tolerate youtube with ads in any capacity are children and boomers.
Simply buy a subscription. It's very cheap and you don't see ads..
@@SjaakSchulteis Ok Boomer.
@@evrythingis1 So everyone is a Boomer? You just wrote that anyone who can watch with ads are children and boomers. I say to buy a subscription, then you call me Boomer too? So who is it? 😂😂
@@SjaakSchulteis I dont see the ads I just know when they how often they would have occurred
By looking at those graphs i would have it pointing to the sky, the standing test leaves A LOT of lost KWH.
Thinking that it could be nice for a privacy fence replacement, or general fence replacement.
I am in Wasilla and was thinking about putting some of these panels in. I dont have a ton of usable space for something like this on my acre lot. So I think these might be the perfect solution. Especially since winter is when I need power the most.
I'm about to install solar next year. Thanks for the information, I'll definitely see more videos from your channel.
Greetings from Germany. You put alot of work into it and got some nice results. thanks.
Thank you!
Very interesting results. We live in Alaska and the arc of our summer sun is over 180 degrees from east to west. We can get a solid 12 hours of good solar sun for three months during summer. But, our 24 panel system facing due south receives 5-7 hours max. With vertical mounted bifacial we could probably capture another 5-7 hours? Unfortunately, the amount of sun we capture in the winter is almost 0% from Nov-March. The sun angle averages from 9 degrees to approx 12 degrees off the horizon and I think bifacial panels would be a wash in the winter. I am looking forward to your next experiments and results.
I grew up in Alaska so I understand your lighting issues. I think vertical biracial panels would be a good solution for Alaska.
I’ve had separate arrays on my East, West, and South facing roofs for about 7 years because I live in a municipality that didn’t have grid-tie solar so I just use it throughout the day and wanted even power production. The East and West total 18 panels with 9 on each side and the South facing is 18 panels. The East+West outperform the South facing, significantly. So treating the East+West as bifacial and taking out the tilt, I could see it performing similar to pure south pointed panels. (In the northern hemisphere obviously)
I worked on a guy's system by the ocean. We installed a newer, bigger system with conventially mounted panels, and we laughed at his two older vertically mounted panels (Maybe tilted 15 degrees or so). We figured he must make little to nothing off them. I asked him about them, and he said theyre hooked up only to the hot water heater, and they make all the hot water he needs. The power of the sun bouncing off the water is not to be underestimated!
I haven't tested it, but I've heard systems near bodies of water have a noticeable benefit from reflected light.
Latitude matters, higher the better. Higher DC/AC ratios also help, especially with storage. Vertical bifacial reduce installed normal operating temperature (iNOCT) short circuit current (Isc) and max Isc considerably Electrical balance of system (BOS) is reduced 25%. Presented at NREL on these comparisons, energyideas.
Maybe, maybe. See also: Solar power plant mounted in multi-storey building! (for survivors in the zombie apocalypse):
Shorts version:
ua-cam.com/video/k9AiiCLALRA/v-deo.html
Full version:
ua-cam.com/video/sOskjOsl-cA/v-deo.html
I love your analytical approach to this! Thanks for this test.
Thanks for the feedback Eric!
In orchards, they often lay white tarpaulin material down the rows to get color on the apples. One could utilize this material to bolster the output on the non snowy days…
And he’s talking about the same idea now 😂 only white rock.
This is a very cool video. Did not know about this alternative.
Seems like to be really complete you would have to factor in cost too though.
There are a lot of factors, this is just one data point of many.
Thanks for posting this. The verticle option is exciting from the perspective of dual use in agricultural settings. I have heard the term agro-voltics used to describe it. I'm also intrigued by the results because I have a few locations where I could have a verticle array with the back side not accessible to sunlight (the vertical south-facing side of a building.) While payback would be much longer, it could still be worthwhile. I'm not far from Camp Ravenna in Ohio, whose site was chosen because it's the 5th cloudiest place in the US east of the Mississippi. I chose to install panels on both the north and south roofs of a building (I don't have good locations for a ground mount), and because of the cloud cover, I often see similar output from both arrays.
Try google for "AgriPV"
Honestly this is such a good thing for solar - vertical panels are so much simpler, I’d love a solar fence!
It will be interesting to see summer results as well when they won't get as hot as the south facing ones do.
Good to see you got to test this - I mentioned vertical arrays in your comments a year or so ago. I saw another video on vertical a couple days ago that pointed out one key advantage to vertical panels - morning and evening temperatures are lower than mid-day - the decreased panel efficiency due to panel temperature was limiting the south-facing panels versus the vertical tests. I think the temperature related losses amounted to 3%.
I have my solar panels mounted vertically. My rationalization is reflection from snow cover much of the year and my northern latitude coupled with my non-ideal site. Interesting to have another justification to add to the list. I farm.
Vertical solar panels really thrive in case of optimizing power generation per area. Since they need less space, ypu can put more of them on less space, and therefore produce more power on the same area as standard panels.
Very fun experienment! Still impressive that vertical panels can produce 80% of normally positioned panels!
I think longevity for panels is increased in high sun areas like the desert as the vertical panels stay cooler. Something your area doesn't have an issue with.
Very interesting results. Thanks for sharing
Thanks for watching!
Excellent!! I would love to see this compared with "winter sun" optimized panels (almost vertical) facing South in North America. (or North in Australia) In a perfect world testing them in against walls vs bifacial in the open.
I plan to get to that at some point.
Yes, I would even say that with this shadow thing, I wonder what the impact is of changing the angle of a bifacial N/S between 30 -> 90 degrees. If we are logical, if the rear side looks out of its own shadow to use the reflection of the sun on the snow and take advantage of the angle to make the snow fall more easily, it should in theory be more effective.
With 2 row vertical panel, the frontal sun can be reflected to the backside of the other row
Dave...
I'd like to see you do a test,
facing a couple of panels East
(at a 30° angle) and a couple West
(at 30°)
I'm getting 4 extra hours a day of
good hard sun from sunrise, to noon,
and sunset.
Thank you for doing this research! I'm very curious about the full year performance, as well as long-term-snow performance. It definitely seems like in heavy-snowfall areas, vertical panels might be the best bet. Or, areas where space is a consideration... the increased predictability on the vertical panels' performance across varied weather could be helpful (since variability is the most "questionable" part of renewables). But, would good storage of summer energy be sufficient to offset the variability of cloudy or winter months? Or will these panels perform even better in the summer? Only time will tell--and you're doing the hard work to get us the answers. Thank you!! 🙏🙏🙏
Good to watch, glad I don't have snow to worry about.
Crazy. Look look ! Blue sky in the back ground ! --- Fellow Ohioian.
Thank You for these tests !
I have mounted my 12 kw panels on rotating frames. I turn the panels facing east in the morning, north at mid day and west in the afternoon. Doing that allow me to utilize the sun to the fullest.
I looked this up because I'm interested in mounting bifacial panels vertically on a white standing-seam roof. I'm highly encouraged by these results; basically, every day should be like your snowy days. If I do it right, I think I can get around the problem that the long side of the building is not oriented to solar south.
Putting vertical panels on a roof would be challenging from a structural mounting viewpoint.
Thanks for the testing, I did notice that the big array is casting a shadow in front of the verticals at 9:27. I doubt this would be a killer but I am curious about how much the shadowing was affecting the verticals. From my understanding the benefit was really about heat dissipation and efficiency loss in the hotter months. I think what this setup would be best for is if you didn't have space for a array on you property and the only other option was roof mounted. Can't wait to see some testing in the hot months, i would like to see a comparison of south facing in the summer on a black roof vs verticals. From your testing I am already coming to the theory that the verticals will beat the standard panels.
I think for most people the vertical panels are not going to be the winner, but maybe for some northern folks.
@@ProjectsWithDave So i am thinking the hype is coming from roof mounted vs bifacial vertical. The efficiency loss from heat is telling me this experiment will be interesting. The drop in efficiency vs the panel temp is where I see that it may be a win, depending on what setup and the the average temperatures. I am not surprised that your bi facials outperform the verticals on a frame. So from the simulations I saw it indicated they would experience losses at certain times of the year. Think the key is going to be if is when the increased cooling actually offsets the the poor angle.
Pretty cool results. So the takeaway is that vertical panels produce a lot less power, but it's more stable over a range of weather conditions, they produce the same duck curve as the power consumption does, are not sensitive to snow accumulation, and take up almost 0 acreage (with an asterisk).
Great to see your test results in my part of the country , northeast Ohio. Too many videos are posting test results in the south where sunny days are prevalent. Thx Dave
This guy is one of the mvps for solar knowledge
superb video Dave. Keep up the good work.
You should also think about optimizing the average during the year. For this, vertical panels facing south will be best. Because in the summer you always have enough energy, but in winter the energy from a low sun will be maximized and you will have almost no snow on the panels.
Love to see that vertical panels are pretty decent, since they don't get snowed on. Here in canada we've still got snow today in mid april, so it's either vertical or nothing ig
I think the further north you are, the easier it is to make sense of vertical panels.
Great video - but as others have stated - supposedly the biggest gains are in the summer in hot climates - where the vertical panels do not get as hot.
Will be interested to see our results then.
thanks for the video.
Not sure abot how your electricity price works over there but in Sweden, there is always a big dip at noon every day and during the summer. I have wall mounted panels and If I includes the price, it produces more value than a roof mounted system as I get more energy in the fall, spring and winter. I will now add more vertical panels the the west as price in the afternoon and early evening is highest.
Thanks for posting your actual situation. You have posted a great example of creating a system that matches your specific needs.
@@ProjectsWithDave as well as the overall electric grid needs :)
Looking forward to watching the summer and spring results when autumn rolls around.
Dave, another outstanding video! You answered all my immediate vertical mount questions! Thank you very much.
Excellent!
Excellent video, it really seems like as panel prices drop it will make sense to just stick them to any unused surface and collect every drip of solar energy. The future is so awesome.
The inverter technology is also getting more flexible allowing us to take advantage of "random drips of solar" as you proposed.
If you live in a snowy area, you can use the vertical panels to produce power to melt the snow on the south facing ones.
Even if the standard mount produces more power the vertical one may help reduce the need for large batteries
I was wondering this myself. I live 53° north, and the summer sun rises in the northeast. It made me wonder about flat or vertical installs in the summer. I can't wait to see what you get!