You are the first professional that I’ve encountered, that has dared to say DC optimizers are better then micro-inverters. And I could not agree with you more. If you go with a hybrid inverter like SolArk 15k or EG4 18k, you can add more batteries yourself (plug and play) for battery storage and you are not losing 10% of power going from DC-AC-DC-AC like you would if you have micro-inverters and battery storages because batteries take DC power. I’m a fan of Tigo optimizers which are rated for 700 watts, so no clipping. For my all electric home with minimal roof space, I’m going with DC optimizers and a hybrid inverter for the best bang for you buck and like you said, easy of adding panels or batteries later down the road. Thanks for sticking you neck out and making such an informal video knowing you are going to be chastised. Totally respect your bravery to go against the grain and to be open to criticism. Shows that you care about your customers
Great advice. I recently installed a Solar PV system with a hybrid string inverter. Yes it is a single point of failure, but if it fails it is a simple job to replace it. Keep up the good work. I am really impressed with your risk analysis. I wish you and your dad continued success with your business. I love your honesty delivered so clearly with such integrity.
its only a single point falure if you have 1 inverter i just move the plugs to another inverter, if 1 fails.. so it can also be a point of rescue if expanded im glad i did not get 1 inverter to run all the panels, i have 3. the cost was also cheaper using 3 small inverters then 1 big in my case
It's good to hear you (someone) talk about the long term considerations. My top concerns are how solar will last and what problems we, or my wife if I'm gone before her, will have to deal with in the future. So thank you for raising these things.
This a concern of mine as well, went for a smaller off grid home backup 3kw system that is all portable and can be simply loaded in a u-haul in about a half hour. She really just needs a switch after unplugging that generator system and she is fully on the Grid.
Great video and review on the type of DC converter units and types. I have IQ8+ on my system and have had 2 fail and one replacement by my installer which filled bankruptcy "Solar is Freedom " and left their customers out in the cold!! I dealt with Enphase directly on the second unit and replaced it myself and Enphase did exactly what they said over the warranty and just plug and play and they did the reset through the app and working perfectly again 😊
But there in lies the problem. The IQ8+ is there latest product and the reliability has improved greatly over the years. Yet you've still had two fail and you had to get up on the roof and replace one yourself. What if you weren't capable of doing that or you had an impossibly steep roof or worse still you had an accident doing it?
On string inverter system, it is also VERY usefull to have a ARC fault detection that isolate the load. THIS is what avoid fires due to numberous serie HV connections that each can fail. Breakers fail, fuse fail, MC4 fail, and bad connection from unthightened screw , all can lead to fire on HV. Where Micro Inverter DONT have any problem with that safety issue as these are all below 50V DC and the AC side is crossing zero every 8 milisecond to extinguish the arc. If a micro inverter fail.. it will very rarely cause fire, It just stop working. however, if a serie connection fail on one panel of a string setup during load without any ARC fault detection, it can become way more complicated and dangerous.
Very good point! Thats also why I would not install just ANY string inverter. I do trust the good brands like SMA or Fronius. They are HYPER sensitive and if they sense an acr they shut down to protect themselves. Thats a good subject for a more technical video. Is not every inverter whether micro or string is equal... Thank you for sharing your thoughts! :) I love any feedback and opinions!
@@solartimeusaI don't like either micro inverter or string-tied installations. Way too many points of failure/high-voltage hazards. If you are truly concerned about long-term maintenance then a parallel, low-voltage install still makes the most sense, preferably not on a roof.
@@Daniel-Six But then at lower currents you have increased resistive losses - half the voltage, twice the current, and four times the losses for the same wire thickness
@@krslavin Copper is a good long term investment, and it's not a big expense in the kind of build I do anyway. Jumping up to 48 volts will deliver four times the current conversion from your charge controllers, but you have to switch everything to that ecosystem. That's not such a huge deal nowadays, I guess.
Fantastic video, this is one of the few "large picture" forward thinking conversations that isn't just a sales pitch. 😍 I appreciate your honesty and transparency. There are some excellent long-term concepts for homeowners to consider prior to investing in solar. ☀
My wife is going to start asking questions as to why I keep having coffee with Martyna. I appreciate the explanation and the recommendation. We should all 100% take this as fact, as you are a professional solar installer and deal with this every day, for years now. I am in IT Security and if someone asked me to setup a security posture for their home/business, I would hope they would take my recommendation as well, as I do this every day. I am not a professional solar installer, so when SolarTime recommended string inverters rather than micro inverters, I said yes please. One of the reasons I felt I didn't need to come back with my opinion or an extra explanation from them is they already showed me they weren't in it for the money, but in it for the quality and service to back up their warranty. If it's easier to service, easier to maintain, when things go wrong...I'm all for it. Keep fighting the good fight, you have an great argument!
As a homeowner who opted for the LG branded solar panels with their microinverters in 2017. And found they have walked away from the business i can see your point! So far only 3 failed panels which were replaced a few years ago.... Time will tell!
As a maintenance engineer, i entirely agree. A 25 year warranty on electronics in a rooftop environment is optimistic, and ultimately commercially meaningless if the company changes name every 5 or 10 years to duck their obligations.
@@arnovanwingerde8589 But where the roof space is accessible the micro-inverter can be mounted inside the roof space therefore protecting it from the rigours of the weather and making it far easier to replace in the event of failure.
Fantastic video! All of the points you speak to are the reasons I went with string inverters on my 14.2 kW system just installed 6 weeks ago. The SMA Sunny Boy inverters with Shade Fix provide an excellent solution to shading.
This is great! Especially the Bypass-Diodes info, yours is the first site that even mentioned this technology and in my mind does negate the need for micro inverters. Hope to see more as I am doing research and thinking of installing a system in Houston. Some things I would like to see are 1. Texas & Federal tax incentives 2. Net metering? 3. Battery Systems that will work in my very hot humid garage without having to do garage modifications. 4. Why Solar water heating is not a thing in Texas. Hope to see more from you!!!!
@@webshark4163 Yes Yes Yes!! Solar Water Heating is huge in Europe! Growing up in Poland we always had solar water heating! And yes all your concerns are very valid and I cannot wait to post something addressing all of them! Net metering is causing some concerns that’s when eventually battery will play a big role by helping with self consumption. Texas is a whole another can of worms because of our temperatures. So hot in summer and our winters lately have caused some concerns too.
As an engineer who did some electrical engineering at University, I wholeheartedly agree with your views. I just came across your videos today: micro vs optimiser video. Love your work. I am now hooked.
I'm old enough to remember when folks were hooking their panels up to forklift batteries and using 12v to run their cabin. This discussion is quite valuable. Thank you for getting brave.
Excellent, thought-provoking presentation! Here's my question - What's the Mean Time To Failure (MTTF) of a high-quality micro-inverter compared to a bypass diode? In other words, what is the statistical probability that a system with high-quality micro-inverters will fail within the 25 year warranty period compared to the probability that a system with a high-quality, properly sized string inverter will fail? If both kinds of solar arrays are very likely to last 25 years without failure, then the entire system will probably have paid for itself by then, and after 25 years there's a good chance that new, more efficient technology will make it cost-effective to replace the whole system.
Very enlightening ! Thankyou. Longevity was one subject that I had not considered because I took for granted that a 25 year warrantee would be valid for that length of time. The reality is only maybe! Yes you have changed my mind!
Hi, a question about the micro inverter story you have at 8:30 ... if a company goes bankrupt... even a micro inverter company... I've talked to installers on this point on this very topic... you can use any other micro to continue producing AC to the home (and also you have only lost 1 or 2 out of 20-30 micros which is insignificant)... that's the benefit... the decentralized nature of the system. Yes app level detail may be gone if the company is bankrupt but the micros still work and produce energy since its AC energy... and they don't stop because they can't communicate... that's not how they work. And imo - you don't need to replace them all if only 1 or 2 failed. Unlike if for example - if a power optimizer goes bad from Solaredge or if they go Bankrupt (doubtful i admit) then we are left with a system that won't function since that's where they all talk together to the main inverter... the power optimizers need one working system... not the micros. Would like to know what you think on this. thanks for the video.
I've had a 4.35 system installed recently with a solis hybrid inverter. One question on my mind: how would you check a string system to make sure that all panels are actually working? People say check generation, but generation can be affected by many factors like weather. How do you troubleshoot to find which panel is dead?
Which would you go with? Estimated $3k difference going from Tesla String inverters (2) to a single SolarEdge with optimizers. Pretty decent sun exposure in ATX but some trees on the perimeter panels in the morning and evening. I'm leaning toward just string inverter but also like the panel level monitoring of the optimizer system.
I thought this was super helpful. I’m still so early in the process, like a year or more before I’m ready to install solar, and I’m still trying to sort through all the options and variants, that I don’t know the trade offs at all. Thank you for this! Most helpful.
You bring up some good points but question, i was told that optimizers medels are have compatability lists and would not work with all string inverters? Also do optimizers suffer from the heat as well?
About 6 years ago now, I was part of a "Solarize" campaign in the town. We found an installer, signed people up, and based on the total installed wattage got everyone discounts on the install. Part of my involvement was the technical side. I was solidly in the SolarEdge optimizer/string inverter camp. Another person on the board was sold on the microinverter. We both had our systems before the "solarize" program started, so none of the opinions mattered to us overall. Just so happened the installer offered both solutions. People chose which one based on which of us they liked it seemed. And then 85 homes were installed over about a year. The other guy had a microinverter on his system fail. What did he care, it was under warranty. All fixed. About 5% of the microinverter systems have had warranty work now. NOT ONE of the SolarEdge systems I know of has had any component failure. We did have one installer failure where a junction box wasn't properly set to drain and it corroded the cables inside. None of the inverter or optimizers failed. Just a couple cables due to the standing water in the junction box. My inverter is fed a steady voltage maintained by the optimizers. It's very efficient and lives in a climate controlled basement. The other thing I like by having DC to the basement is that if I want to add a battery pack, I'm not converting from DC to AC and then back to DC in the battery and then back to AC yet again to use it. DC charges the battery and I only get the AC loss when the power is converted. DC to DC conversion is FAR more efficient. In my mind, it's not only simpler, but single point of failure is in a very controlled environment and my options to expand later are FAR better served. Good on you for thinking about what happens down the road. People I sat with who heard my arguments understood the case I was making. Those that sat with the other guy never heard them. My understanding is that the microinverter solutions were also generally more expensive overall by a little bit. The only time a SolarEdge install cost more was when there were a lot of different roof facings and thus many more strings to manage.
Hi Chris, thank you so much for sharing! Its very interesting to see our market being so heavily marketed, and we really are not really thinking for ourselves much anymore... I am so happy you are happy and yes! Having the heart of the system in the climate controlled area is key to keeping it work long term. Again, Thank you sharing! I really appreciate it. And HOW COOL of a project you were part of! Martyna
That was a very good presentation. After reading the comments your viewer brought up some other concerns about battery storage as part of the system and the conversion losses. Thanks for putting out you view and thoughts.
Thank you so much for commenting, I really appreciate it. I am sure there will be quite a lot of people that have a different view, but I just hope we can all stay open minded and have a respectful conversation. :) Thank you again. Martyna
Excellent video. I've seen too many videos on UA-cam of people climbing on the roof to lift panels and replace failed microinverters to ever consider them in a system. One major error @6:28 -- the Earth is spinning backwards!
Interesting viewpoint! I designed and built my own 7.8kw system and decided on a SMA string inverter with Tigo optimizers. The biggest reason is because it was less expensive but it still gave me many of the benefits of microinverters. I also like not being so reliant on one manufacturer. With Tigo, even if one fails and I can't replace it, I can just remove it and it will still operate but without the monitoring and optimization. Also I have designed electronics that will work at 350 degrees F. It just depends on how much money you want to spend on higher quality parts and additional testing. The quality vs. cost tradeoffs are always a battle.
1000%! AGREE! Yes! That's the benefit of Tigo, if they are out of the business, you just remove the optimizer and panel works great! There is this big talk in solar industry that microinverters are there to tell you if a panel stops working, when in reality panels RARELY stop working, its there to show you that the micro or optimizer is down lol. :) I'm so glad you have a great system! :) -Martyna
Thank you for this great video! As someone who spends a lot of time in Europe, I've never understood where the hype for microinverters in the US comes from and why it is different than anywhere else in the world! String is much cheaper & hussle free for maintenance. I have a system with bypass diodes and a SMA Sunny Boy inverter (that has Shade Fix). It's perfect!
Thank you so much for sharing. I am originally from Poland, and totally grew up in that culture with similar mindset. I personally have a sunny boy in my home too here in Dallas TX :)
It might come from flexibility, you can add different sized panels with a microinverter, but have to have similar type of panels with a string inverter.
Wow, thank you for your excellent video! It started out with a few weak arguments, that almost prevented me from seeing your main argument: who has the largest stand on a fair is no indication whatsoever of the quality of their products! I am researcher into wind energy and trust me on that one... In Europe string converters with optimizers are the standard solution today. But I was totally going with Enphase microinverters in Germany, especially because of their higher safety: sure 230 V is higher than 50 V, but it is way lower than 400-600 V and that does make a difference if something goes wrong, better efficiency and it is also rather elegant to have native 230 V AC going into my 230 V AC house... The main reason for microinverters was the 25 years warrantee: I am 63, so 25 years would likely last me a life time - always good not to have to exchange inverters when you are 80 or so! I intend to install 25 panels, plenty for a 1 person European household with A/C, and a chances are that in this 25 years 1 or 2 inverters will fail are real - but I then have the choice of exchanging these, or simply close my eyes to it and continue with 23 panels. Extreme temperatures are no problem in northern Germany, but electronics outside and exchanging inverters and getting them into the system would be. So, many thanks again for sowing doubts into what was already a foregone design choice!
This was an outstandingly interesting talk - with only a little repetition. Congratulations and thank you Martyna. You have made me pause from implementing what I THOUGHT was going to be my solution - but it leaves me stuck for an alternative! I'm trying to work out a solution for a complicated small array that will have at least 3 strings (two - with different orientations - of thin film CdTe solar glass with 87Vmpp 116Voc & 0.78Aoc) and one of ~5 conventional roof-mounted panels. All strings subject to intermittent shade and with up to 25m cable run to battery/inverter. BUT: No hybrid inverters are available in UK with more than 2 channel MPPT tracking (no Powerwall 2+ here) so.......... ......I'd therefore been thinking about a microinverter system and arranging the solar glass modules into groups of 3 parallel or 4 in two series-parallel pairs to match the microinverter inputs. When I look at DC optimisers I see the same multiple points of potential failure as with microinverters and same potential future backwards-compatibility problems that you point to. I also see concerns about Tigo optimisers from an authoritative source (www.mcelectrical.com.au/tigo-optimiser-recall/) and that SolarEdge is excluded by our installation's short strings. What I really need - I am beginning to think - is a 6-MPPT Powerwall3 - but that's just vapour at the moment, and it may - like their glass tiles - never come over the horizon, trumpets sounding. So maybe what I will HAVE to make do with is two small hybrid inverters, though I don't yet know if their outputs and interaction with a single battery can be successfully managed in a domestic setting. See! I AM coming round to your way of thinking. What do you make of this slightly unusual dilemma?
Thank you Martyna for the educational and honest video. I am just a customer looking for going solar in my house. I have 5 (very costly) quotes, all with the microinverters. I am looking for alternatives, so if you provide design systems in Virginia, please let me know.
Hi Martin! Unfortunately I do not do work in Virginia. I do recommend checking energy sage as well. They tend to have a mix of local and national companies to choose from. Just make sure to feel comfortable with your rep, and don't settle! :) DO your research on the company and make sure they are legit and been in business for a long time. :) Those will definitely help if you ever have any system issues. Martyna
If you are in Hampton Roads, Convert Solar has lower prices than the national and regional chains because they don't have a dealer fee. They install microinverters.
Hi Ma'am you sound very responsible Business Executive in this era. 🙂 This is brilliant presentation. Thanks for giving and insight to Micro-Inverter vs DC Optimizers
Yes watched your video as well, excellent explanation. AE Solar have Hotspot free panels now. With a few diodes, but not in the market yet. Diodes are super small and testing. Avoid shading is key
Congrats on a well balanced explanation of your view on string vs. Micro-Inverters, the long term lifetime of a solar panel system for the customers and the installers. I agree with you. Better to focus on modularity vs. compatibility.
Thank you for this video and sharing your extensive experience. Micro v string has been my dilemma for 6 months on a simple E/W arrangement with no shading whatsoever. I concluded that spending more money on REC Pure R panels was the better choice and letting them do their thing whilst coupled to a simple Growatt 2 MPPT string inverter at ground level is the best solution. K.I.S.S still applies.
I think your absolutely rite about string inverters. My only hope is that they increase the warranty period for them so that they can be more competitive with micro inverters. And you are absolutely rite, if the company that installed the system in the first place is not in business anymore, it will be very difficult to get the micro inverters replaced with someone else. I'll love to hear you talk more about warranties in future videos. GOD bless you. 🥰
Looking into solar now. We physically built our house, not subbed out or paid a general contractor. We made it handicap accessible for our future. Would like to do my own install. Just retired now and have done many different types of construction. The sales person started off with micro inverters are the way togo. Thank you for your time and assistance. I will be watching your other videos. Thank you Martin
They you for your comment and info. I could highly highly recommend WIll Prowse ( fellow youtuber) who does DIY videos :) I also hope to make those soon as well. Martyna
Thank you for the information. Lots has changed in 4 years. I have an Enphase system. I watch a few of your test videos. I am amazed how well string inverters performed. Keep up the good work. You don’t talk over my head. You have embraced the k.i.s.s method( keep it simple silly).
I'm with you Martyna. I think a big iron central inverter is the way to go. Get a good brand name inverter, keep it in the shade and out of the weather, and it should last 10+ years. If / when it fails, an installer can swap in a new inverter in no time.
thanks for your video's; learning alot. question: at around 10:00 into the video you mention that if a string inverter goes bad in a dozen years & manufacturer is out of business, it can be replaced with another company's string inverter. I thought there was some tie-in between optimizers & inverter so that they had to be compatible. eg i am having a solar-edge system installed (ie SE optimizers & SE inverter). Are the SE optimizers compatible with another company's inverter and would they still maintain their (optimizer) functionality (ie safety-shutoff, per-panel-monitoring, and individual per-panel optimization)? thank you . great job.
As you appear to realize, your opinions are the small minority view. I have a two year old Enphase micro inverter system that has performed well, with one glitch that was quickly resolved by the installer quickly after I reported it. I have been researching the issues again because I am thinking about expanding my system because of the disaster visited upon the state of Texas by governor Abbott and the Texas legislature with “retail electric competition” which appears to be increasing Texas electricity rates by about a third! So I am going to increase my solar production by about a half with more Enphase equipment including micro inverters and maybe more battery capacity. No way I would consider string inverters, which also need optimizers on the rooftop under each solar panel, which apparently are less reliable than my rooftop inverters. Thanks for your advice, but I’m totally convinced that you are wrong.
Hi :) And you have every right to have that opinion. :) I appreciate and respect you sharing it! I am glad you have solar, and my opinion is just my opinion. AT the end of the day we have to do what we feel is right for ourselves. My opinion is different, does not mean its wrong. Just different.
People who are buying micro inverter systems need to watch this video first BEFORE they buy. So that they can make a truly informed decision. This video needs to be seen.
Thank you so much for the comment. I really appreciate it. Especially those who will eventually add batteries. I have customers with micros and they have very limited options now compared to those with central inverters. Again thank you so so much!
I'm planning a new solar installation for our home next year and considering the Mango Power M storage solution. Question: Since the Power M comes with its own hybrid inverter that will handle up to 18 kW of DC input, will I still need a separate string inverter? We plan to install 10-12kW of solar panels on both the east facing and west facing roof (5-6kW on each side). I'm hoping to use just the inverter that comes with the Power M since it also allows a generator connection and will simplify the installation process. Am I heading in the right or wrong direction with my thinking?
Good day Martyna. This is my first time watching 1 of your videos & I'm very impressed. In South Africa we have power failures daily - sometimes multiple times throughout the day. Our appliances & smart home devices have & continue to suffer greatly. We've finally decided to get Solar but the info available out there is really overwhelming with so many opinions that takes you from pillar to post. It's not easy to swim against the current, but all i can say is keep on being bold & courageous & may God be the centre of your business always. Keep making challenging & thought provoking videos! kind regards Ian
Totally agree. Especially for the future and durability. A basic string has less electronics and connectors so less can break. Also adding a battery is more efficient ( dc to dc ). Great video.
Thank you for speaking the truth. Too many people today seem to go with what they are told and don't really think about it. I have always liked the concept of micro-inverters but wondered about the reliability in an outdoor environment and the heat cycling they go through. Also, I wondered about the energy loss when they are used in a battery storage system going from DC to AC and then back to DC at the battery, then back to AC again. I'm wanting to build an off-grid system with grid charging as a supplement/backup. I want to slowly transition my house over to off-grid where the battery bank is kept at some minimum SOC by a charger off the grid and anything over that mark is supplied by solar. As I expand my solar array I will depend less and less on the grid. I also want a system that can be totally managed locally with no internet access required. Internet access should be an option, not a requirement. Thank you for your videos. I wish you great success in business.
I did buy a string inverter system, with battery backup. I think you should call it "Solar talk over Coffee" or "Coffee talk Solar"😂😂😂 Love your videos and honest opinions.
Martyna thanks for making this video; it was a game changer. Sadly it also sent me back to the drawing board. Sure wished you worked in Virginia instead of Texas (although I have lots of family in Texas, so I forgive you :) ) Two years ago I started looking into solar for our new “forever house” and as you said everything I read or saw on UA-cam pointed me to microinverters. While I loved the integrated system that Enphase offers, I hated the DC to AC to DC to AC inefficiency. Eventually, I discovered Solar Edge's string inverters, but backed away from them when I learned about their maintenance reputation. Your video introduced me to other string inverter options. I’m looking for a 8Kw PV system with two inverters and probably 10K battery backup. You correctly pointed out that micro inverters have 20 or 30 points of failure, on the other hand, the Army taught me to limit single points of failure. Failure = 2 is 1 and 1 is none; so a single inverter doesn’t work for me. Any recommendations?
What is your timeline? IF you want to wait just a few months to 1. Learn and understand your new home energy consumption for proper system and battery sizing. 2. SMA is coming out with A hybrid inverter. I cannot say its any good, YET. But it could be. Tell me more of what your goals are for the battery? IS it self consumption? Daily usage of battery power for avoidance of net metering? Or is it for emergency situations, or both? Howdy from Texas! :)
@@solartimeusa Martyna thanks for the reply! I’ve got a full year’s worth of usage data with 11,200Kw annual usage and 860Kw monthly. It appears that we are well below the state average and below the average for northwestern Virginia where we live too; but it’s just the two of us. While, I’d like it done yesterday, I’m on my own time and I don’t have any true “deadlines.” My rationale for getting solar is in part to “fix” my electrical bill; our current bill is so low, I’ll be lucky if I ever “save” money. The primary driver is I want a plan B. I’m not a preper, but I am an old soldier and I do want something for the next bad ice storm or the zombies come :).
Great video. In considering the effect of reliability on the useful life of the system, it's worth keeping in mind the electrical connections - one of the most common causes of failure in electrical systems in harsh environments. That means both cable connectors and joints between components. There are obviously far more of the latter, but they should be protected from the environment by the housings. Cable connectors are exposed. A good system is designed to have as few cable connectors as possible that cause the whole system to stop when they fail. Therefore serially connected systems are always suspicious from a reliability point of view, and warrant special consideration. I note that serial connection is often used in solar systems of both types. This is just a point of view of a chartered engineer specialising in forensic analysis of high-risk systems. Best wishes from England.
In cabling, reducing splice and intermediate connections is more a determinant of failure than the QA on th actual cable runs by themselves. The manufacturing defect is usauill immediate versus installation
Great video. Thanks! I'm researching for a new system and my number one concern with microinverters is the potential EMI from all those switching supplies. As a corollary, I have concerns with such power supplies in the presence of radio transmitters (example a solar backup option at a mountain top communication site); Intermodulation is a real thing with switching power supplies and I have to ask what steps have the micro inverter designers taken to ensure compatibility with the electrical surroundings. The same might be true for power optimizers though.
100% correct . A 25 year warranty is not worth the paper it is printed on . Excellent subject discussion .The cost of servicing is going to be a killer for efficiency.
Good to hear information that I have believed for years. Electronics that are subject to extreme heat will always fail over a period of time.. Way before the whole PV system needs to be replaced.
True, high temperature are accelerating aging of electronic components. But as proven throughout my carreer in electronics industry choice of component grade can make a huge difference in a life expectancy of the electronics. 25years under roof conditions is not that extreme, -40 to +80 Celsius. Just imagine space station... Well, it explains why microinverters are much more expensive.
It great to hear someone speaking truth about their experience in the solar industry. My company has been installing solar for 25+ years and microinverters and power optimizers are all marketing. It is sad the U.S. market has been so deceived for so long. We totally agree with you that string inverters like Fronius out perform and are more reliable than micro inverters or Solar Edge. A solar panel has a .02% chance of failure and an inverter has a 2% chance of failure. Why do I want to add a 2% chance of failure to every panel on the array? Only because Enphase is really good at marketing. String inverters are definitely a better choice.
Hi Ryan, thank you so much for commenting and sharing your ( long!!) experience. It's great to hear some of people don't just follow the marketing... :)
Martyna, I believe you are right on the mark recommending string inverters over micro-inverters, and for all the reasons you have expressed. I've been using a string inverter for over 7 years with no issues. My system is broken into 4 separate strings of 2500 watt arrays, making a 10KwH system. If I lose a panel within one of the strings, I still have 75 percent left generating while awaiting repairs. Best of both worlds! One more thing: In my experience, over-sizing the string inverter -just a little- guarantees the longest life of the entire system. I find that a lot of folks who under-rate their string inverter (to their panels) causes clipping and excessive heat at the inverter. Bad idea in my opinion. Thank you for your continued valuable advice!
Thank you! That's an excellent point! :) Lots of people dont realize even if they have a 7 kW system that faces east and west, their system may hit 5 KW of one moment... but they tent to ask for a bigger inverter... That's a big misconception for sure! :) I am so glad you have a 7 year old string! Way to go!!! :) Martyna
Hey Martyna. Sub'd and Liked. I love the way you think. You raise some valid points. There's pros and cons for both. I built my own system with strings initially and reconfigured it to micros. However, at the end of the day you gotta do what's right for you. :)
my degree is in IMET specializing in solar/wind (hate wind). i have done a few installs. one, the only one that was a failure is where the customer went with what the salesman told her and not with the math i showed her from a storage/use/available hours and such. her salesman told her 400W would be enough to run 800 watt reefer and an icemachine and fan. you can do the math on the reefer and know she did not have the charge power during sun to run the thing, never mind that night. all my installs have been to industry (commerical) standard, soldiering points where that is the standard, and torque standard on panels and such. the point is i'm a professional as you are. the trackers only add 25% more power and ROI usually is not worth it. you are correct on the fail points. industry standard is to have as few as possible, and to have check points to isolate specific areas just for the points you state that you may have to pull 30 panels to find one bad inverter. you are doing it right. as for the install i spoke of, she later called the school i was in, and talked to the dean and asked if what i had stated was correct and he said yes, the salesman had not sold her the correct system as she did not have the power required for an uncooled home with a reefer pulling 800 watts an hour. she continued to bad mouth me for a long time which actually was a good thing as people would call and i was able to educate them to get the right system. good video i like you a lot for being such a strait forward honest person
Hey! Thank you so much for sharing the story... You know what they say... All Publicity is Good Publicity! :) Also very agree on the trackers as well! Much easier to just add a few more panels to bring the production up than dealing with a tracker that can break as well. I appreciate the feedback as well :) Martyna
Thank you for this. Most informative. I did not know that microinverters are not interchangeable. I always wanted a DIY kit or something close to that because as you've answered/stated who know who will be around in 5 years. My question for you or anyone else is....would I need optimizers if I'm using the Ecoflow Delta Pro Ultra? I plan on running the solar paneld in series and plugging it straight into the Ecoflow unit. My understanding is I would not need anything else? Thank you.
Thanks for the great video and wealth of information. Is the cost of an extra inverter if the customer wants a larger system more than if having a micro inverter system, if so is it difficult to to sell due to higher cost? Do you install smart home panels like SPAN if so how do you warranty it?
Hey Garyd, So it all depends how much you want to add to the system. If we are adding for example 2 or 3 panels, then you just tie those panels to an existing string inverter. Similar for microinverters but the problem I have encountered over the years is that if a homeowner adds panels to a system from 3 or 4 years ago, the new micros are not compatible with old ones, so you cannot just add a few panels at this point. You have to build a minimum system size with a new envoy and a new combiner box that will communicate with the new microinverters. Thats the biggest thing for me is they just make it unnecessarily complicated. Now if you want to add 4 kw to you existing system, cost should be relatively similar for either option. I am not a huge fan of the new smart panels. Same thinking they make it very reliable on the internet connection, and its not yet sized properly for my market here in Texas. Most homeowners who want it have money to spend on it... but those homes are also rather big and have 2 x 200 amp panel service. I think it will be an awesome addition to systems in the next few years after they clear out some of the limitations that currently we see. I do wait for it to be better and tested before I offer it to homeowners. Martyna
You could say that, but the difference I see is that the optimizer is optional and not required for the system to work. So if in 10 years all your manufacturers are belly up and one of your optimizers is dead, you just take it off your panel, reconnect the wires and the panel works. It’s not optimized and you can’t see it but it works. That’s my opinion of course ;) just sharing my thoughts. Thank you for leaving a comment and a question.
I totally agree with you on string inverters. All inverters fail sooner or later and working at ground level is much simpler. I've had a string inverter system for 24 years. It was upgraded 8 years ago and I'm currently working to replace the SMA inverter with a Powerwall 3. The current inverter is maxed out so I hope to be able to add panels with the Powerwall.
Really appreciate your practical approach, experience and honesty. Have just come across your channel (and now subscribed) while researching a solar system for our own home. I can certainly see your logic regarding a string system. I am a little confused regarding what I was thinking of doing which is to use REC Alpha Pure RX panels and a Tesla Powerwall 3 for battery storage. With regards to the REC panels I thought that as the particular model of panel I was wanting to use has a microinverter built into them that I was stuck with a microinverter setup. So if I did want to go with the string system are these microinverters removed or bypassed at the time of installation?
I was leaning towards micro inverters because i wanted to have the possibility to add more panels at a later date but it doesnt seem thats easy going by your video. I saw other videos suggesting that its not easy adding panels to a string inverter. So im confused. I didnt want to have two inverters on the property if thats possible. Could i buy one large kw inverter so that i can add extra panels at a later date?
You can definitely get one larger inverter with some room to grow in the future. I totally understand your frustration as far as which way to go... Especially since majority of US market would sell you a microinverter, but the majority of the world market would sell you a string. I think in your situation best thing to do is choose the best installer with years of good track record. In this situation whatever option you go with you have a good and a solid installer backing you and helping you in case something goes wrong. I hope that helps at least a tiny bit. Good luck, Martyna
Great points on micro-inverters. I never thought about having to replace all micro-inverters because of compatibility on older failed models.Thank you. I installed a sol-ark string inverter and panels on my home. What annoys me is the NEC code requires panel level shutdown. So I still have Tigo units on each panel for the rapid shutdown stealing power from my system. I think the panel manufacturers are adding more circuits to the panels to combat the shading issues.
Yes agree with you! And I do not like the rapid shutdown rule either. I do like sol ark product and tigo combo! You should check out my video on effects of shading. Shows that you do have good gains from usuing your panel level optimizers x
Really great content and the arguement I mulled over before going with micros. In reality if I had gone string with 440W panels I would be producing a about 60w more per panel with some losses but it is so cool to see production per panel, AC to the powerwall, inverter redundancy and blackout protection (iQ8 or powerwall). You do make a solid argument and it has sound logic. No need to apologise for saying the truth. I'm not sure iQ8 replacements will be around in 5 to 10 years as enphase will have moved on. Even installers say that you will most likely replace the whole system in 10 years and you can sell the old one on FB market place. Now that's confidence in a 25 year warranty......... :)
Hey, thank you so much for sharing, and being so cool about it. There are quite a lot of people that will not even listen because it contradicts their opinion so I really appreciate your thoughts here. Martyna
I have an enphase 36 panel system on 3 circuits which was installed 5 years ago also net metering. Knock on wood has been trouble free. I decided to have a free standing system not a roof mount. It keeps it cooler, and has a lot easier access to each panel. I would suggest only installing micro inverters on a free standing and not not on the roof. Also I installed 0000 aluminum wire on the hundred and fifty foot run to the service. What I have learned is that technology changes rapidly and by the time you buy and install the newest system it's behind what's available now. Systems have to be repairable and upgradable.
Thank you for sharing, and hopefully you dont have any issues in the future. I am glad you have been a solar user for 5 years, that is a great information.
What's your thoughts on a micro inverter for a ground mount system? I have a bad roof orientation and space for a ground mount system. If I went with a string inverter at the house I would possibly lose quite a bit of power on a dc system. For reference the ground mount would be approximately 1 acre away from the house.
When we talk ground mount I would highly go for String. Especially if no shading. This might be a good test to watch for you. ua-cam.com/video/KFOM2SQ_qNM/v-deo.html But also if you have 1 acre distance or over 200 feet you can run AC. If you place string inverters on the ground mount you can run AC if you're worried about losses during transport, but I have had customers do both DC and AC runs and those losses are so minimal most people don't even know if they are related to shading, or weather or actaul current.
You are absolutely correct. Have an Enpahse Microinverter system and tried to get an expansion by 4 more panels. The Installer never came around to do it. Now I understand. There are probably no compatible micro inverters available anymore.
Nice Video Martyna, Just notice i took the risk and went with microinverters since my house the only way was installing those box in the front of the house and did not like the look on the other house I see since they only had 1 String Inverters and my configuration needed 2 Inverters. So i took the risk as anything in life. Hopefully i get a lot of years out of the 8 Microinverters on my roof. Live in Panama. 2025 will try to go with the battery when I get some financially breading room for that investment
I am just glad you went solar. And I wish you all the best and I am truly hopeful that the micros will do well and better in the future. Thank you for sharing your experience.
Hi... Just watched your video, thanks it was very informative. So I was sitting on the fence trying to decide between Microinverters and String Inverters, now i can say I'm still on the fence. The reason for my statement is I purchased a 5 KW solar system when my house in Mexico was being built. The current system has a String inverter and at full capacity. So to add capacity the original installer wants to add a net new 6KW inverter. I have been advised by another company to leave the old system and just add new Enphase Micoinverters for the net new capacity. How would others handle this. Add a new String Inverter? Can you have two string Inverters? Or just add Microinverters Enphase that claim you can do add on KW as required. Opinions please.
HEY!!! I am sorry I am just now responding. So if you have an existing string at max, you really can do either option. BUT if the original inverter brand is still working and in business why not add the same product? That way you have the same monitoring for both. Most installers unfortunately will mostly push what they like to install. But in your case you will be okay either way, I WOULD suggest another string. lets say another 5 kW, and that will give you more room to grow. If price is similar on both, enphase will be fine as well. They are the only micro I would ever recommend and I do install it sometimes too. Let me know !!!
I think all systems need to be looked at under different circumstances. There are some areas and specific systems that micro inverters work better. There are also many systems that a string system is better. The problem I have seen in the solar industry is solar companies that get fixated on one type of system, or one brand of components used. To really be a consumer advocate, different products for different situations or customer preferences should be explored. Some solar companies don't push a different type or brand because they simply learned with that one type/brand and they don't know anything about other options. This makes them limited in my opinion. That's one thing I really admire about Solartime. You really can be assured that RIGHT type of system is being offered to the customer because they know about all types and brands of systems and can install many different types. I totally understand Martyna's preference on string systems because I share those preferences on most systems. (But of course, not ALL systems)
Very very true! Thank you for sharing your thoughts on the subject. I feel like lots of companies like to go an easy route and just teach their installers one product, and when they try something new, its the installers that complain since as humans we dont like the change... Again thank you for sharing ! :) -Martyna
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and ideas. Very interesting perspective. I’ve been watching and thinking about the various systems but found your perspective on this well thought out and thoughtful from the installation perspective. Wishing you and your family the best.
Having worked in large scale solar for 13 years, the big problem with micro inverters is they will be obsolete in less than 7 years, so getting microinverter replacements will be hard after the system is more than about 5 years old. With string inverters, they're easier to replace years down the road. Further, if you install the string inverter in a cool location, it will last much more than 10 years, trouble free, and most solar installers will know how to fix it.
Yes thank you so much for sharing your thoughts on this. I so agree with you and just wish that other installers would have some more brain capacity to understand that rather than keep selling people micros left and right... :(
Great video. You make very good points 9:45 about if a string inverter breaks and that company no longer exists you can replace it with any other string inverter also 11:25 about those small devices not capable of standing heat for 25 years. But one benefit of using MI is by doing the inversion on a per panel level it eliminates the central point of failure for the system whereas in string if that central inverter fails the power output of entire system is lost. I have a question in order to bypass the shading effect, why not just connect the panels in parallel or is it that you need that max voltage summation in series.
yes and yes! The problem with parallel connection is the voltage staying constant, and string inverters require a certain voltage to start running, so its not doable... :( But the diodes really do the job with new panels. I am working now on a video showing the difference in production with and without optimizers. So far it is very interesting. I do think Mirocs are not awful, and they can be very beneficial. I am just totally worried for the future of them... Thank you for commenting, I really appreciate that. Martyna
@@solartimeusa not sure why you are worried... Enphase is has been around for a long time and are a successful public company... doubtful they or Solaredge will go away anytime soon. In fact they own 90% of this market.
I'm from the UK. On my roof fitted in 2012, is a standard 9 string panels wired up in a snail configuration so I have both plugs coming back under the tiles in the same place. Keeping the wiring to the minimum. And on my solar carport, I had built last year I tried the solar optimization units. I can get to these units easy, as the solar panels are the roofing material and if cat's decided to sleep on a panel it won't effect the rest! LoL. All items are good and like you say, you don't want to much sensitive products on a roof to replace if fails.
I had already come to the same conclusion myself. It makes no sense to me to have the most likely to fail devices up where I have a much higher risk of damaging my roof or being injured trying to replace it. Instead I invested in redundant hybrid inverters, will be less likely to be completely down if I do have a failure, that isn't also down when the grid is down. I completely agree with your conclusion.
The single point of failure vs. multiple points decision is easy to decide. If you are in a plane flying across the ocean, and you have an engine failure, isnt it better to have four engines with one failing? You can still fly home on three engines. With a single large engine, when it fails, so do you. If one microinverter fails, I still have >90% of my power generation, and I can take my time replacing the failed unit. Yes, it is more difficult to replace a unit on the roof, but it is also not a major project. Finally, I would agree that if your plans are to expand your system in the future, it might be better to go the string inverter route.
Hey Mark! Thank you for the analogy! And I do agree with your points. The only problem I see is the fact that if one panel fails it does not affect the whole string. Of course if the string inverter fails your system is down. Fair points. I do think there are benefits to bothy for sure. Thank you again for your input! :) Martyna
In conjuction with a battery ESS (Energy Storage System), the micro-inverter systems seem to be more specifically ideal in medium-to-heavily shaded areas with a ground-mounted solar array system with easy access to the back of the solar panels and micro-inverters. For most other conditions and situations, the string-inverter + power optimizer combo would be the better solution, especially long-term, as you explained very well in your video.
I truly appreciate your commitment to string inverters and I had a very difficult time getting a contractor to install my panels with optimizers and 1 string inverter. I would like to add storage in the future and feel that I would get more efficiency charging batteries with dc than the ac/dc dc/ac conversion.
I know... so many just do enphase because its easy for them! Its AC so they don't need same electrical experience as they would with DC strings. They also don't need to properly calculate voltages. They just go easy rout, and created this false narrative that you need panel level monitoring... to push their product. Thank you for being open minded!
5:40 I think the argument is that DC arcs / fires are more violent than AC in some cases. Your micro inverter output is only 240VAC. But you DC String could be 600VDC +. The higher voltage is harder in Switched Isolators etc. especially moisture seeps in over time (5+ years), even if both installed correctly. My opinion is that over time the AC Micro inverters will be safer
so there are a number of things that made me want to go with microinverters... they have panel level monitoring of production, so if a panel or inverter were to fail, I would be able to see it immediately and be able to replace that panel or micro... if you had string inverters, you wouldn't be able to do this unless you had power optimizers at which point the cost is about the same as microinverters, but still with a central point of failure... additionally, the warranty on enphase is 25 years whereas most central inverters is 15 years if you are lucky, simply because microinverters are handling a smaller load on each one which is going to be less wear and tear compared to a central inverter (unless you oversize)... additionally, although having a single point of failure is nice for maintenance purposes, it is not great for continued production--if your central inverter goes down, you make no more power until you replace it... if a microinverter goes down, all the other microinverters are still creating power... on top of that, I have a ground mount system, so replacing a microinverter on this system would not be difficult as you can access the backside of the array... although replacing a central inverter may be easier than replacing a microinverter say on the roof, the additional cost of having a central inverter which is not even expected to last as long as the microinverters will add to the cost and make it so that the microinverter solution is often times more economical that being said, you make great points regarding replacement of string inverters, as there are more options that are more easy to replace on a system... and if enphase were to go belly up, you are correct that the 25 year warranty wouldn't mean anything
I prefer Victron, Dc coupled, dc mppt 150, 250 or 450 vdc from the roof, transformed down to 48vdc which goes to either into a 48vdc inverter or storage batteries. Nice video btw.
What about the benefit to know exactly which panel has an issue when that happens? In a sting setup, good luck knowing which panel has issues? Or am I missing something?
How often do you see panels have issues versus inverters having issues? If you have 10 panels and 10 inverters, which one will have an issue sooner? More often than not, the microinverter is there to tell us when the MICROINVERTER fails NOT THE PANEL.
Rooftop PV fires from 600vDC arching has happened here in Sydney Australia. Sunshine on rooftop string PV panels is still live 600vDC. Metal gutter down pipes from metal roofed homes that feed to pvc inground storm water drain pipes may need to be earthed if children and people can touch them at groundlevel. 240volt AC microinverter as well.
Your thinking isn’t far off from mine with one difference. I am looking to build my system with a ground install. The cost of replacing a roof that is supposed to be every 10 year is already expensive, but to have a roof system removed and then re-installed after a roof replacement is a big added cost in that labor. But to the point I am planning on doing a battery storage with a sting system.
I was thinking of going the microinverters route when I go solar in a few years but you made some very excellent points about replacing a single central string inverter vs multiple points of failure in a microinverters system. Also the fact that what happens if enphase goes belly up within their 25 year warranty period whereas a string inverter is more easily replaced from a different manufacturer. Thanks to your thought provoking video I am converted to going with string inverter.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I do see lots of cool benefits of micros, but just the future is whats worrisome. Its good your open minded and consider different options :) Good luck when you go solar! :) The more of us the merrier! -Martyna
Nem 3.0 is making solar not worth the ROI which will put solar installers and solar manufacturers out of business if it gets worst. The electric vs solar is a casino house vs player and house always wins
@@drfootankleGet a battery and quit playing the game. The grid tied no battery systems were a failed bussiness model. Forcing a seller to buy at retail from anyone is not rational and obviously doomed to failure.
@@ghz24 indeed you bring up critical points regarding the challenges of integrating batteries into solar setups, particularly the hurdles related to costs and programming complexities. The expense of batteries and the need for precise programming based on seasonal and time-of-use variations present significant considerations, especially for individuals seeking personal energy independence. In light of these challenges, it's crucial to recognize the broader implications for the solar industry. With policy changes like Nem 3.0, we're witnessing a shifting landscape that directly affects solar companies. The evolving policies and uncertainties have contributed to a challenging business environment, leading to reports of layoffs within the solar sector. This highlights the urgency of finding solutions that not only address individual energy needs but also contribute to the resilience and sustainability of the solar industry. Your insights into the failed business model of grid-tied systems without batteries underscore the need for adaptable and sustainable solutions. As we navigate these changes, it's essential to consider the broader economic impact on the solar sector and explore how innovations can not only address personal energy goals but also contribute to the industry's stability during these transformative times.
Right now I have a quote for enphase system with micro inverters and ep cube Canadian solar with 1 inverter and dual optimiser what is your take on ep cube system ?
I DO LIKE IT! Based on everything i know about the product! I have not tested one myself, but will very soon. The question I have is EP cube is a hybrid inverter, you could ask the installer why the need for microinverters? Maybe better off with rapid shutdown, or tigo optimizers. Unnecessary cost of enphase here.
@solartimeusa yes ep cube hybrid system , company quote me for a 13.3k battery , Tigo Dual Optimizer , 7.6 kW Total Inverter Rating , ESS Medium Backup, 200A Smart Gateway, and upgrade electrical panel , of course with 17 panels that I need do you thing this is the right system right now to go with ep cube or should I wait for something else like I believe enphase should be coming out with upgrade or Tesla power 3
I like most of your arguments and you are probably on the right path as an installer - KISS. Regarding the panel based electronics - surely the panel based optimisers and panel based microinverters are likely to succumb similarly to the elements so that consideration is probably moot. I hope I haven't made a mistake getting the more expensive and complex microinverter setup - but I felt happy buying a BMW over a Ford and I wanted to see how it behaved. FWIW, I installed a cheap string of panels and a bargain basement inverter on my old house and it was still running fine after 12 years.
I think you are right when you say that customers come to installers with micro-inverters as the solution - that is what I did originally and my installer was surprised and asked why that configuration. I saw this video and your points made me rethink. I eventually went with TIGO (mostly from a safety point of view for rapid shutdown). So thank you for this - it saved me a lot of money. BTW I'm UK based and I think the micro inverter is gaining traction here.
You are the first professional that I’ve encountered, that has dared to say DC optimizers are better then micro-inverters. And I could not agree with you more. If you go with a hybrid inverter like SolArk 15k or EG4 18k, you can add more batteries yourself (plug and play) for battery storage and you are not losing 10% of power going from DC-AC-DC-AC like you would if you have micro-inverters and battery storages because batteries take DC power. I’m a fan of Tigo optimizers which are rated for 700 watts, so no clipping. For my all electric home with minimal roof space, I’m going with DC optimizers and a hybrid inverter for the best bang for you buck and like you said, easy of adding panels or batteries later down the road. Thanks for sticking you neck out and making such an informal video knowing you are going to be chastised. Totally respect your bravery to go against the grain and to be open to criticism. Shows that you care about your customers
Thanks for being honest, transparent and putting customers 1st and not what other people think.
Great advice. I recently installed a Solar PV system with a hybrid string inverter. Yes it is a single point of failure, but if it fails it is a simple job to replace it.
Keep up the good work. I am really impressed with your risk analysis. I wish you and your dad continued success with your business. I love your honesty delivered so clearly with such integrity.
Thank you so so much for the feedback and comment. Appreciate the support so much sir!
its only a single point falure if you have 1 inverter
i just move the plugs to another inverter, if 1 fails..
so it can also be a point of rescue if expanded
im glad i did not get 1 inverter to run all the panels, i have 3.
the cost was also cheaper using 3 small inverters then 1 big in my case
It's good to hear you (someone) talk about the long term considerations. My top concerns are how solar will last and what problems we, or my wife if I'm gone before her, will have to deal with in the future. So thank you for raising these things.
You are very welcome, thank you for leaving a comment, I really appreciate that. :)
-Martyna
A good man, I will treat my wife well like you
This a concern of mine as well, went for a smaller off grid home backup 3kw system that is all portable and can be simply loaded in a u-haul in about a half hour. She really just needs a switch after unplugging that generator system and she is fully on the Grid.
Good 👍
Great video and review on the type of DC converter units and types. I have IQ8+ on my system and have had 2 fail and one replacement by my installer which filled bankruptcy "Solar is Freedom " and left their customers out in the cold!! I dealt with Enphase directly on the second unit and replaced it myself and Enphase did exactly what they said over the warranty and just plug and play and they did the reset through the app and working perfectly again 😊
But there in lies the problem. The IQ8+ is there latest product and the reliability has improved greatly over the years. Yet you've still had two fail and you had to get up on the roof and replace one yourself. What if you weren't capable of doing that or you had an impossibly steep roof or worse still you had an accident doing it?
Probably the best microinverter video online. You've clearly been doing this for a long time and found lots of problems. Fantastic. Subscribed.
THANK YOU SO SO MUCH!!!
On string inverter system, it is also VERY usefull to have a ARC fault detection that isolate the load. THIS is what avoid fires due to numberous serie HV connections that each can fail. Breakers fail, fuse fail, MC4 fail, and bad connection from unthightened screw , all can lead to fire on HV. Where Micro Inverter DONT have any problem with that safety issue as these are all below 50V DC and the AC side is crossing zero every 8 milisecond to extinguish the arc. If a micro inverter fail.. it will very rarely cause fire, It just stop working. however, if a serie connection fail on one panel of a string setup during load without any ARC fault detection, it can become way more complicated and dangerous.
Very good point! Thats also why I would not install just ANY string inverter. I do trust the good brands like SMA or Fronius. They are HYPER sensitive and if they sense an acr they shut down to protect themselves. Thats a good subject for a more technical video. Is not every inverter whether micro or string is equal...
Thank you for sharing your thoughts! :) I love any feedback and opinions!
Correct! Arcs on defected solar DC components are causing fires. This video proves your point: ua-cam.com/video/Zez2r1RPpWY/v-deo.html
@@solartimeusaI don't like either micro inverter or string-tied installations. Way too many points of failure/high-voltage hazards. If you are truly concerned about long-term maintenance then a parallel, low-voltage install still makes the most sense, preferably not on a roof.
@@Daniel-Six But then at lower currents you have increased resistive losses - half the voltage, twice the current, and four times the losses for the same wire thickness
@@krslavin Copper is a good long term investment, and it's not a big expense in the kind of build I do anyway. Jumping up to 48 volts will deliver four times the current conversion from your charge controllers, but you have to switch everything to that ecosystem. That's not such a huge deal nowadays, I guess.
Fantastic video, this is one of the few "large picture" forward thinking conversations that isn't just a sales pitch. 😍 I appreciate your honesty and transparency. There are some excellent long-term concepts for homeowners to consider prior to investing in solar. ☀
Thank you so so much for the kind words John, I appreciate you!
My wife is going to start asking questions as to why I keep having coffee with Martyna. I appreciate the explanation and the recommendation. We should all 100% take this as fact, as you are a professional solar installer and deal with this every day, for years now. I am in IT Security and if someone asked me to setup a security posture for their home/business, I would hope they would take my recommendation as well, as I do this every day. I am not a professional solar installer, so when SolarTime recommended string inverters rather than micro inverters, I said yes please. One of the reasons I felt I didn't need to come back with my opinion or an extra explanation from them is they already showed me they weren't in it for the money, but in it for the quality and service to back up their warranty. If it's easier to service, easier to maintain, when things go wrong...I'm all for it. Keep fighting the good fight, you have an great argument!
Thank you so much for your comment! :) I appreciate the support really!!!
As a homeowner who opted for the LG branded solar panels with their microinverters in 2017. And found they have walked away from the business i can see your point! So far only 3 failed panels which were replaced a few years ago.... Time will tell!
As a maintenance engineer, i entirely agree. A 25 year warranty on electronics in a rooftop environment is optimistic, and ultimately commercially meaningless if the company changes name every 5 or 10 years to duck their obligations.
Thank you! Thanks for sharing your thoughts!!!
Elec eng here, totally agree.
are you implying enphase will not be around in 5 to 10 years? lol..
@@kl8878 No... but is a possibility. You can never be sure that any brand is still around that long.
@@arnovanwingerde8589 But where the roof space is accessible the micro-inverter can be mounted inside the roof space therefore protecting it from the rigours of the weather and making it far easier to replace in the event of failure.
Fantastic video! All of the points you speak to are the reasons I went with string inverters on my 14.2 kW system just installed 6 weeks ago. The SMA Sunny Boy inverters with Shade Fix provide an excellent solution to shading.
I am so glad! :) Thank you for your comment, I really appreciate it!
Martyna
This is great! Especially the Bypass-Diodes info, yours is the first site that even mentioned this technology and in my mind does negate the need for micro inverters. Hope to see more as I am doing research and thinking of installing a system in Houston. Some things I would like to see are 1. Texas & Federal tax incentives 2. Net metering? 3. Battery Systems that will work in my very hot humid garage without having to do garage modifications. 4. Why Solar water heating is not a thing in Texas. Hope to see more from you!!!!
@@webshark4163 Yes Yes Yes!!
Solar Water Heating is huge in Europe! Growing up in Poland we always had solar water heating!
And yes all your concerns are very valid and I cannot wait to post something addressing all of them!
Net metering is causing some concerns that’s when eventually battery will play a big role by helping with self consumption.
Texas is a whole another can of worms because of our temperatures. So hot in summer and our winters lately have caused some concerns too.
As an engineer who did some electrical engineering at University, I wholeheartedly agree with your views.
I just came across your videos today: micro vs optimiser video.
Love your work. I am now hooked.
I am so so grateful for your comment. Thank you!
I'm old enough to remember when folks were hooking their panels up to forklift batteries and using 12v to run their cabin. This discussion is quite valuable. Thank you for getting brave.
Thank you for leaving a comment, I do appreciate it!
Excellent, thought-provoking presentation! Here's my question - What's the Mean Time To Failure (MTTF) of a high-quality micro-inverter compared to a bypass diode? In other words, what is the statistical probability that a system with high-quality micro-inverters will fail within the 25 year warranty period compared to the probability that a system with a high-quality, properly sized string inverter will fail? If both kinds of solar arrays are very likely to last 25 years without failure, then the entire system will probably have paid for itself by then, and after 25 years there's a good chance that new, more efficient technology will make it cost-effective to replace the whole system.
Very enlightening ! Thankyou. Longevity was one subject that I had not considered because I took for granted that a 25 year warrantee would be valid for that length of time. The reality is only maybe! Yes you have changed my mind!
Oh wow! Thanks for letting me know! I respect all opinions, but was curious for sure if someone got on my side of the darkness :D
Hi, a question about the micro inverter story you have at 8:30 ... if a company goes bankrupt... even a micro inverter company... I've talked to installers on this point on this very topic... you can use any other micro to continue producing AC to the home (and also you have only lost 1 or 2 out of 20-30 micros which is insignificant)... that's the benefit... the decentralized nature of the system.
Yes app level detail may be gone if the company is bankrupt but the micros still work and produce energy since its AC energy... and they don't stop because they can't communicate... that's not how they work. And imo - you don't need to replace them all if only 1 or 2 failed.
Unlike if for example - if a power optimizer goes bad from Solaredge or if they go Bankrupt (doubtful i admit) then we are left with a system that won't function since that's where they all talk together to the main inverter... the power optimizers need one working system... not the micros.
Would like to know what you think on this. thanks for the video.
Very good points!
@@NickWindhamthnx
And still no good replies
I've had a 4.35 system installed recently with a solis hybrid inverter. One question on my mind: how would you check a string system to make sure that all panels are actually working? People say check generation, but generation can be affected by many factors like weather. How do you troubleshoot to find which panel is dead?
Which would you go with? Estimated $3k difference going from Tesla String inverters (2) to a single SolarEdge with optimizers. Pretty decent sun exposure in ATX but some trees on the perimeter panels in the morning and evening. I'm leaning toward just string inverter but also like the panel level monitoring of the optimizer system.
I thought this was super helpful. I’m still so early in the process, like a year or more before I’m ready to install solar, and I’m still trying to sort through all the options and variants, that I don’t know the trade offs at all.
Thank you for this! Most helpful.
I am so so glad it was helpful. Good luck with your research.
You bring up some good points but question, i was told that optimizers medels are have compatability lists and would not work with all string inverters? Also do optimizers suffer from the heat as well?
About 6 years ago now, I was part of a "Solarize" campaign in the town. We found an installer, signed people up, and based on the total installed wattage got everyone discounts on the install.
Part of my involvement was the technical side. I was solidly in the SolarEdge optimizer/string inverter camp. Another person on the board was sold on the microinverter.
We both had our systems before the "solarize" program started, so none of the opinions mattered to us overall. Just so happened the installer offered both solutions. People chose which one based on which of us they liked it seemed.
And then 85 homes were installed over about a year.
The other guy had a microinverter on his system fail. What did he care, it was under warranty. All fixed.
About 5% of the microinverter systems have had warranty work now. NOT ONE of the SolarEdge systems I know of has had any component failure. We did have one installer failure where a junction box wasn't properly set to drain and it corroded the cables inside. None of the inverter or optimizers failed. Just a couple cables due to the standing water in the junction box.
My inverter is fed a steady voltage maintained by the optimizers. It's very efficient and lives in a climate controlled basement.
The other thing I like by having DC to the basement is that if I want to add a battery pack, I'm not converting from DC to AC and then back to DC in the battery and then back to AC yet again to use it. DC charges the battery and I only get the AC loss when the power is converted. DC to DC conversion is FAR more efficient. In my mind, it's not only simpler, but single point of failure is in a very controlled environment and my options to expand later are FAR better served.
Good on you for thinking about what happens down the road. People I sat with who heard my arguments understood the case I was making. Those that sat with the other guy never heard them. My understanding is that the microinverter solutions were also generally more expensive overall by a little bit. The only time a SolarEdge install cost more was when there were a lot of different roof facings and thus many more strings to manage.
Hi Chris, thank you so much for sharing! Its very interesting to see our market being so heavily marketed, and we really are not really thinking for ourselves much anymore... I am so happy you are happy and yes! Having the heart of the system in the climate controlled area is key to keeping it work long term.
Again, Thank you sharing! I really appreciate it. And HOW COOL of a project you were part of!
Martyna
Chris, can I ask the brand of micros that were installed please.
That was a very good presentation. After reading the comments your viewer brought up some other concerns about battery storage as part of the system and the conversion losses.
Thanks for putting out you view and thoughts.
Thank you so much for commenting, I really appreciate it. I am sure there will be quite a lot of people that have a different view, but I just hope we can all stay open minded and have a respectful conversation. :) Thank you again.
Martyna
Excellent video. I've seen too many videos on UA-cam of people climbing on the roof to lift panels and replace failed microinverters to ever consider them in a system. One major error @6:28 -- the Earth is spinning backwards!
Haha! Its crazy so little people noticed that!
Thank you so much for leaving the comment :)
Interesting viewpoint! I designed and built my own 7.8kw system and decided on a SMA string inverter with Tigo optimizers. The biggest reason is because it was less expensive but it still gave me many of the benefits of microinverters. I also like not being so reliant on one manufacturer. With Tigo, even if one fails and I can't replace it, I can just remove it and it will still operate but without the monitoring and optimization.
Also I have designed electronics that will work at 350 degrees F. It just depends on how much money you want to spend on higher quality parts and additional testing. The quality vs. cost tradeoffs are always a battle.
1000%! AGREE! Yes! That's the benefit of Tigo, if they are out of the business, you just remove the optimizer and panel works great! There is this big talk in solar industry that microinverters are there to tell you if a panel stops working, when in reality panels RARELY stop working, its there to show you that the micro or optimizer is down lol. :)
I'm so glad you have a great system! :)
-Martyna
@@solartimeusa Shouldn't it be possible to identify a non-working panel just with a thermal imager?
Thank you for this great video!
As someone who spends a lot of time in Europe, I've never understood where the hype for microinverters in the US comes from and why it is different than anywhere else in the world!
String is much cheaper & hussle free for maintenance. I have a system with bypass diodes and a SMA Sunny Boy inverter (that has Shade Fix). It's perfect!
Thank you so much for sharing. I am originally from Poland, and totally grew up in that culture with similar mindset. I personally have a sunny boy in my home too here in Dallas TX :)
It might come from flexibility, you can add different sized panels with a microinverter, but have to have similar type of panels with a string inverter.
Wow, thank you for your excellent video! It started out with a few weak arguments, that almost prevented me from seeing your main argument: who has the largest stand on a fair is no indication whatsoever of the quality of their products! I am researcher into wind energy and trust me on that one...
In Europe string converters with optimizers are the standard solution today. But I was totally going with Enphase microinverters in Germany, especially because of their higher safety: sure 230 V is higher than 50 V, but it is way lower than 400-600 V and that does make a difference if something goes wrong, better efficiency and it is also rather elegant to have native 230 V AC going into my 230 V AC house...
The main reason for microinverters was the 25 years warrantee: I am 63, so 25 years would likely last me a life time - always good not to have to exchange inverters when you are 80 or so!
I intend to install 25 panels, plenty for a 1 person European household with A/C, and a chances are that in this 25 years 1 or 2 inverters will fail are real - but I then have the choice of exchanging these, or simply close my eyes to it and continue with 23 panels. Extreme temperatures are no problem in northern Germany, but electronics outside and exchanging inverters and getting them into the system would be.
So, many thanks again for sowing doubts into what was already a foregone design choice!
This was an outstandingly interesting talk - with only a little repetition. Congratulations and thank you Martyna. You have made me pause from implementing what I THOUGHT was going to be my solution - but it leaves me stuck for an alternative! I'm trying to work out a solution for a complicated small array that will have at least 3 strings (two - with different orientations - of thin film CdTe solar glass with 87Vmpp 116Voc & 0.78Aoc) and one of ~5 conventional roof-mounted panels. All strings subject to intermittent shade and with up to 25m cable run to battery/inverter. BUT: No hybrid inverters are available in UK with more than 2 channel MPPT tracking (no Powerwall 2+ here) so..........
......I'd therefore been thinking about a microinverter system and arranging the solar glass modules into groups of 3 parallel or 4 in two series-parallel pairs to match the microinverter inputs. When I look at DC optimisers I see the same multiple points of potential failure as with microinverters and same potential future backwards-compatibility problems that you point to. I also see concerns about Tigo optimisers from an authoritative source (www.mcelectrical.com.au/tigo-optimiser-recall/) and that SolarEdge is excluded by our installation's short strings.
What I really need - I am beginning to think - is a 6-MPPT Powerwall3 - but that's just vapour at the moment, and it may - like their glass tiles - never come over the horizon, trumpets sounding. So maybe what I will HAVE to make do with is two small hybrid inverters, though I don't yet know if their outputs and interaction with a single battery can be successfully managed in a domestic setting. See! I AM coming round to your way of thinking. What do you make of this slightly unusual dilemma?
Thank you Martyna for the educational and honest video. I am just a customer looking for going solar in my house. I have 5 (very costly) quotes, all with the microinverters. I am looking for alternatives, so if you provide design systems in Virginia, please let me know.
Hi Martin! Unfortunately I do not do work in Virginia. I do recommend checking energy sage as well. They tend to have a mix of local and national companies to choose from. Just make sure to feel comfortable with your rep, and don't settle! :) DO your research on the company and make sure they are legit and been in business for a long time. :) Those will definitely help if you ever have any system issues.
Martyna
If you are in Hampton Roads, Convert Solar has lower prices than the national and regional chains because they don't have a dealer fee. They install microinverters.
Hi
Ma'am you sound very responsible Business Executive in this era. 🙂
This is brilliant presentation.
Thanks for giving and insight to Micro-Inverter vs DC Optimizers
I like the way you explained bypass diodes - very clear 🙂
Thanks Gary! I love your channel! You are definitely an inspiration!
Martyna
@@solartimeusa thanks - you’re too kind
Yes watched your video as well, excellent explanation. AE Solar have Hotspot free panels now. With a few diodes, but not in the market yet. Diodes are super small and testing.
Avoid shading is key
Congrats on a well balanced explanation of your view on string vs. Micro-Inverters, the long term lifetime of a solar panel system for the customers and the installers. I agree with you. Better to focus on modularity vs. compatibility.
Thank you so much for taking the time to leave a comment and share your thoughts. I appreciate it :)
Im an installer in Puerto Rico and I am 100% with you . Great info
Thank you so much for sharing and leaving a comment I truly appreciate it! 🩷
Thank you for this video and sharing your extensive experience. Micro v string has been my dilemma for 6 months on a simple E/W arrangement with no shading whatsoever.
I concluded that spending more money on REC Pure R panels was the better choice and letting them do their thing whilst coupled to a simple Growatt 2 MPPT string inverter at ground level is the best solution. K.I.S.S still applies.
YES!!! So agree and so glad you are doing REC pure R! Those panels are so good!
I think your absolutely rite about string inverters. My only hope is that they increase the warranty period for them so that they can be more competitive with micro inverters. And you are absolutely rite, if the company that installed the system in the first place is not in business anymore, it will be very difficult to get the micro inverters replaced with someone else. I'll love to hear you talk more about warranties in future videos. GOD bless you. 🥰
Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts on this. :) I am glad the video was helpful!
Looking into solar now. We physically built our house, not subbed out or paid a general contractor. We made it handicap accessible for our future. Would like to do my own install. Just retired now and have done many different types of construction. The sales person started off with micro inverters are the way togo. Thank you for your time and assistance. I will be watching your other videos. Thank you Martin
They you for your comment and info. I could highly highly recommend WIll Prowse ( fellow youtuber) who does DIY videos :)
I also hope to make those soon as well.
Martyna
Thank you for the information. Lots has changed in 4 years. I have an Enphase system. I watch a few of your test videos. I am amazed how well string inverters performed. Keep up the good work. You don’t talk over my head. You have embraced the k.i.s.s method( keep it simple silly).
I'm with you Martyna. I think a big iron central inverter is the way to go. Get a good brand name inverter, keep it in the shade and out of the weather, and it should last 10+ years. If / when it fails, an installer can swap in a new inverter in no time.
YES EXACTLY! Thanks for sharing your thoughts :)
thanks for your video's; learning alot. question: at around 10:00 into the video you mention that if a string inverter goes bad in a dozen years & manufacturer is out of business, it can be replaced with another company's string inverter. I thought there was some tie-in between optimizers & inverter so that they had to be compatible. eg i am having a solar-edge system installed (ie SE optimizers & SE inverter). Are the SE optimizers compatible with another company's inverter and would they still maintain their (optimizer) functionality (ie safety-shutoff, per-panel-monitoring, and individual per-panel optimization)? thank you . great job.
As you appear to realize, your opinions are the small minority view. I have a two year old Enphase micro inverter system that has performed well, with one glitch that was quickly resolved by the installer quickly after I reported it.
I have been researching the issues again because I am thinking about expanding my system because of the disaster visited upon the state of Texas by governor Abbott and the Texas legislature with “retail electric competition” which appears to be increasing Texas electricity rates by about a third! So I am going to increase my solar production by about a half with more Enphase equipment including micro inverters and maybe more battery capacity.
No way I would consider string inverters, which also need optimizers on the rooftop under each solar panel, which apparently are less reliable than my rooftop inverters.
Thanks for your advice, but I’m totally convinced that you are wrong.
Hi :)
And you have every right to have that opinion. :) I appreciate and respect you sharing it!
I am glad you have solar, and my opinion is just my opinion.
AT the end of the day we have to do what we feel is right for ourselves. My opinion is different, does not mean its wrong. Just different.
People who are buying micro inverter systems need to watch this video first BEFORE they buy. So that they can make a truly informed decision. This video needs to be seen.
Thank you so much for the comment. I really appreciate it. Especially those who will eventually add batteries. I have customers with micros and they have very limited options now compared to those with central inverters. Again thank you so so much!
I'm planning a new solar installation for our home next year and considering the Mango Power M storage solution. Question: Since the Power M comes with its own hybrid inverter that will handle up to 18 kW of DC input, will I still need a separate string inverter? We plan to install 10-12kW of solar panels on both the east facing and west facing roof (5-6kW on each side). I'm hoping to use just the inverter that comes with the Power M since it also allows a generator connection and will simplify the installation process. Am I heading in the right or wrong direction with my thinking?
Thanks for your honest opinion on micro inverters as I was thinking of going that way but have now changed my mind.
Thank you barry for leaving your thoughts on it as well.
Good day Martyna. This is my first time watching 1 of your videos & I'm very impressed. In South Africa we have power failures daily - sometimes multiple times throughout the day. Our appliances & smart home devices have & continue to suffer greatly. We've finally decided to get Solar but the info available out there is really overwhelming with so many opinions that takes you from pillar to post. It's not easy to swim against the current, but all i can say is keep on being bold & courageous & may God be the centre of your business always. Keep making challenging & thought provoking videos! kind regards Ian
Totally agree. Especially for the future and durability. A basic string has less electronics and connectors so less can break. Also adding a battery is more efficient ( dc to dc ). Great video.
Hey! Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and leaving a comment. ( I am sorry for missing to respond to it sooner! )
I watched the video 3x. Wow, it's got me thinking now. Gr8 vid.
Thank you so so much. Just my perspective, and I am fully aware not everyone will agree. Thanks again!
Thank you for speaking the truth. Too many people today seem to go with what they are told and don't really think about it. I have always liked the concept of micro-inverters but wondered about the reliability in an outdoor environment and the heat cycling they go through. Also, I wondered about the energy loss when they are used in a battery storage system going from DC to AC and then back to DC at the battery, then back to AC again. I'm wanting to build an off-grid system with grid charging as a supplement/backup. I want to slowly transition my house over to off-grid where the battery bank is kept at some minimum SOC by a charger off the grid and anything over that mark is supplied by solar. As I expand my solar array I will depend less and less on the grid.
I also want a system that can be totally managed locally with no internet access required. Internet access should be an option, not a requirement.
Thank you for your videos. I wish you great success in business.
I did buy a string inverter system, with battery backup. I think you should call it "Solar talk over Coffee" or "Coffee talk Solar"😂😂😂 Love your videos and honest opinions.
You hit the nail on the head! Thank you.
If you want split phase AC, it is easier to convert DC to split phase AC once right?
Martyna thanks for making this video; it was a game changer. Sadly it also sent me back to the drawing board. Sure wished you worked in Virginia instead of Texas (although I have lots of family in Texas, so I forgive you :) )
Two years ago I started looking into solar for our new “forever house” and as you said everything I read or saw on UA-cam pointed me to microinverters. While I loved the integrated system that Enphase offers, I hated the DC to AC to DC to AC inefficiency. Eventually, I discovered Solar Edge's string inverters, but backed away from them when I learned about their maintenance reputation. Your video introduced me to other string inverter options.
I’m looking for a 8Kw PV system with two inverters and probably 10K battery backup. You correctly pointed out that micro inverters have 20 or 30 points of failure, on the other hand, the Army taught me to limit single points of failure. Failure = 2 is 1 and 1 is none; so a single inverter doesn’t work for me. Any recommendations?
What is your timeline? IF you want to wait just a few months to 1. Learn and understand your new home energy consumption for proper system and battery sizing. 2. SMA is coming out with A hybrid inverter. I cannot say its any good, YET. But it could be.
Tell me more of what your goals are for the battery? IS it self consumption? Daily usage of battery power for avoidance of net metering? Or is it for emergency situations, or both?
Howdy from Texas! :)
@@solartimeusa Martyna thanks for the reply! I’ve got a full year’s worth of usage data with 11,200Kw annual usage and 860Kw monthly. It appears that we are well below the state average and below the average for northwestern Virginia where we live too; but it’s just the two of us. While, I’d like it done yesterday, I’m on my own time and I don’t have any true “deadlines.” My rationale for getting solar is in part to “fix” my electrical bill; our current bill is so low, I’ll be lucky if I ever “save” money. The primary driver is I want a plan B. I’m not a preper, but I am an old soldier and I do want something for the next bad ice storm or the zombies come :).
Great video. In considering the effect of reliability on the useful life of the system, it's worth keeping in mind the electrical connections - one of the most common causes of failure in electrical systems in harsh environments. That means both cable connectors and joints between components. There are obviously far more of the latter, but they should be protected from the environment by the housings. Cable connectors are exposed. A good system is designed to have as few cable connectors as possible that cause the whole system to stop when they fail. Therefore serially connected systems are always suspicious from a reliability point of view, and warrant special consideration. I note that serial connection is often used in solar systems of both types. This is just a point of view of a chartered engineer specialising in forensic analysis of high-risk systems. Best wishes from England.
In cabling, reducing splice and intermediate connections is more a determinant of failure than the QA on th actual cable runs by themselves. The manufacturing defect is usauill immediate versus installation
Great video. Thanks! I'm researching for a new system and my number one concern with microinverters is the potential EMI from all those switching supplies. As a corollary, I have concerns with such power supplies in the presence of radio transmitters (example a solar backup option at a mountain top communication site); Intermodulation is a real thing with switching power supplies and I have to ask what steps have the micro inverter designers taken to ensure compatibility with the electrical surroundings. The same might be true for power optimizers though.
100% correct . A 25 year warranty is not worth the paper it is printed on . Excellent subject discussion .The cost of servicing is going to be a killer for efficiency.
Thank you, appreciate the comment and sharing the thoughts.
Good to hear information that I have believed for years. Electronics that are subject to extreme heat will always fail over a period of time.. Way before the whole PV system needs to be replaced.
True, high temperature are accelerating aging of electronic components. But as proven throughout my carreer in electronics industry choice of component grade can make a huge difference in a life expectancy of the electronics. 25years under roof conditions is not that extreme, -40 to +80 Celsius. Just imagine space station... Well, it explains why microinverters are much more expensive.
It great to hear someone speaking truth about their experience in the solar industry. My company has been installing solar for 25+ years and microinverters and power optimizers are all marketing. It is sad the U.S. market has been so deceived for so long. We totally agree with you that string inverters like Fronius out perform and are more reliable than micro inverters or Solar Edge. A solar panel has a .02% chance of failure and an inverter has a 2% chance of failure. Why do I want to add a 2% chance of failure to every panel on the array? Only because Enphase is really good at marketing. String inverters are definitely a better choice.
Hi Ryan, thank you so much for commenting and sharing your ( long!!) experience. It's great to hear some of people don't just follow the marketing... :)
Martyna, I believe you are right on the mark recommending string inverters over micro-inverters, and for all the reasons you have expressed. I've been using a string inverter for over 7 years with no issues. My system is broken into 4 separate strings of 2500 watt arrays, making a 10KwH system. If I lose a panel within one of the strings, I still have 75 percent left generating while awaiting repairs. Best of both worlds!
One more thing: In my experience, over-sizing the string inverter -just a little- guarantees the longest life of the entire system. I find that a lot of folks who under-rate their string inverter (to their panels) causes clipping and excessive heat at the inverter. Bad idea in my opinion. Thank you for your continued valuable advice!
Thank you! That's an excellent point! :) Lots of people dont realize even if they have a 7 kW system that faces east and west, their system may hit 5 KW of one moment... but they tent to ask for a bigger inverter... That's a big misconception for sure! :)
I am so glad you have a 7 year old string! Way to go!!! :)
Martyna
My new recommendation video when people say “you know much about solar?” You lay out the hard decisions very well
I so appreciate it!
Hey Martyna. Sub'd and Liked. I love the way you think. You raise some valid points. There's pros and cons for both. I built my own system with strings initially and reconfigured it to micros. However, at the end of the day you gotta do what's right for you. :)
my degree is in IMET specializing in solar/wind (hate wind). i have done a few installs. one, the only one that was a failure is where the customer went with what the salesman told her and not with the math i showed her from a storage/use/available hours and such. her salesman told her 400W would be enough to run 800 watt reefer and an icemachine and fan. you can do the math on the reefer and know she did not have the charge power during sun to run the thing, never mind that night.
all my installs have been to industry (commerical) standard, soldiering points where that is the standard, and torque standard on panels and such. the point is i'm a professional as you are. the trackers only add 25% more power and ROI usually is not worth it.
you are correct on the fail points. industry standard is to have as few as possible, and to have check points to isolate specific areas just for the points you state that you may have to pull 30 panels to find one bad inverter.
you are doing it right.
as for the install i spoke of, she later called the school i was in, and talked to the dean and asked if what i had stated was correct and he said yes, the salesman had not sold her the correct system as she did not have the power required for an uncooled home with a reefer pulling 800 watts an hour. she continued to bad mouth me for a long time which actually was a good thing as people would call and i was able to educate them to get the right system.
good video i like you a lot for being such a strait forward honest person
Hey! Thank you so much for sharing the story... You know what they say... All Publicity is Good Publicity! :)
Also very agree on the trackers as well! Much easier to just add a few more panels to bring the production up than dealing with a tracker that can break as well.
I appreciate the feedback as well :)
Martyna
Thank you for this. Most informative. I did not know that microinverters are not interchangeable. I always wanted a DIY kit or something close to that because as you've answered/stated who know who will be around in 5 years. My question for you or anyone else is....would I need optimizers if I'm using the Ecoflow Delta Pro Ultra? I plan on running the solar paneld in series and plugging it straight into the Ecoflow unit. My understanding is I would not need anything else? Thank you.
Thanks for the great video and wealth of information. Is the cost of an extra inverter if the customer wants a larger system more than if having a micro inverter system, if so is it difficult to to sell due to higher cost? Do you install smart home panels like SPAN if so how do you warranty it?
Hey Garyd,
So it all depends how much you want to add to the system.
If we are adding for example 2 or 3 panels, then you just tie those panels to an existing string inverter. Similar for microinverters but the problem I have encountered over the years is that if a homeowner adds panels to a system from 3 or 4 years ago, the new micros are not compatible with old ones, so you cannot just add a few panels at this point. You have to build a minimum system size with a new envoy and a new combiner box that will communicate with the new microinverters.
Thats the biggest thing for me is they just make it unnecessarily complicated.
Now if you want to add 4 kw to you existing system, cost should be relatively similar for either option.
I am not a huge fan of the new smart panels. Same thinking they make it very reliable on the internet connection, and its not yet sized properly for my market here in Texas. Most homeowners who want it have money to spend on it... but those homes are also rather big and have 2 x 200 amp panel service. I think it will be an awesome addition to systems in the next few years after they clear out some of the limitations that currently we see. I do wait for it to be better and tested before I offer it to homeowners.
Martyna
I 💯 agree but what about the optimizer is it the same situation ?
You could say that, but the difference I see is that the optimizer is optional and not required for the system to work.
So if in 10 years all your manufacturers are belly up and one of your optimizers is dead, you just take it off your panel, reconnect the wires and the panel works. It’s not optimized and you can’t see it but it works.
That’s my opinion of course ;) just sharing my thoughts. Thank you for leaving a comment and a question.
I totally agree with you on string inverters. All inverters fail sooner or later and working at ground level is much simpler. I've had a string inverter system for 24 years. It was upgraded 8 years ago and I'm currently working to replace the SMA inverter with a Powerwall 3. The current inverter is maxed out so I hope to be able to add panels with the Powerwall.
Really appreciate your practical approach, experience and honesty. Have just come across your channel (and now subscribed) while researching a solar system for our own home.
I can certainly see your logic regarding a string system. I am a little confused regarding what I was thinking of doing which is to use REC Alpha Pure RX panels and a Tesla Powerwall 3 for battery storage. With regards to the REC panels I thought that as the particular model of panel I was wanting to use has a microinverter built into them that I was stuck with a microinverter setup.
So if I did want to go with the string system are these microinverters removed or bypassed at the time of installation?
I was leaning towards micro inverters because i wanted to have the possibility to add more panels at a later date but it doesnt seem thats easy going by your video. I saw other videos suggesting that its not easy adding panels to a string inverter. So im confused. I didnt want to have two inverters on the property if thats possible. Could i buy one large kw inverter so that i can add extra panels at a later date?
You can definitely get one larger inverter with some room to grow in the future. I totally understand your frustration as far as which way to go... Especially since majority of US market would sell you a microinverter, but the majority of the world market would sell you a string.
I think in your situation best thing to do is choose the best installer with years of good track record. In this situation whatever option you go with you have a good and a solid installer backing you and helping you in case something goes wrong.
I hope that helps at least a tiny bit.
Good luck,
Martyna
I own a cheap Growatt and it works more than fine its a 1200 dollar Hybrid and happy with the string inverter .Regards from Holland
Hi! Cheers from USA :) I am very glad you are happy and yes Growatt is a Huge international inverter producer!
Great points on micro-inverters. I never thought about having to replace all micro-inverters because of compatibility on older failed models.Thank you. I installed a sol-ark string inverter and panels on my home. What annoys me is the NEC code requires panel level shutdown. So I still have Tigo units on each panel for the rapid shutdown stealing power from my system.
I think the panel manufacturers are adding more circuits to the panels to combat the shading issues.
Yes agree with you! And I do not like the rapid shutdown rule either. I do like sol ark product and tigo combo! You should check out my video on effects of shading. Shows that you do have good gains from usuing your panel level optimizers x
Really great content and the arguement I mulled over before going with micros. In reality if I had gone string with 440W panels I would be producing a about 60w more per panel with some losses but it is so cool to see production per panel, AC to the powerwall, inverter redundancy and blackout protection (iQ8 or powerwall). You do make a solid argument and it has sound logic. No need to apologise for saying the truth. I'm not sure iQ8 replacements will be around in 5 to 10 years as enphase will have moved on. Even installers say that you will most likely replace the whole system in 10 years and you can sell the old one on FB market place. Now that's confidence in a 25 year warranty......... :)
Hey, thank you so much for sharing, and being so cool about it. There are quite a lot of people that will not even listen because it contradicts their opinion so I really appreciate your thoughts here.
Martyna
I have an enphase 36 panel system on 3 circuits which was installed 5 years ago also net metering. Knock on wood has been trouble free. I decided to have a free standing system not a roof mount.
It keeps it cooler, and has a lot easier access to each panel.
I would suggest only installing micro inverters on a free standing and not not on the roof. Also I installed 0000 aluminum wire on the hundred and fifty foot run to the service.
What I have learned is that technology changes rapidly and by the time you buy and install the newest system it's behind what's available now.
Systems have to be repairable and upgradable.
Thank you for sharing, and hopefully you dont have any issues in the future. I am glad you have been a solar user for 5 years, that is a great information.
What's your thoughts on a micro inverter for a ground mount system? I have a bad roof orientation and space for a ground mount system. If I went with a string inverter at the house I would possibly lose quite a bit of power on a dc system. For reference the ground mount would be approximately 1 acre away from the house.
When we talk ground mount I would highly go for String. Especially if no shading.
This might be a good test to watch for you. ua-cam.com/video/KFOM2SQ_qNM/v-deo.html
But also if you have 1 acre distance or over 200 feet you can run AC. If you place string inverters on the ground mount you can run AC if you're worried about losses during transport, but I have had customers do both DC and AC runs and those losses are so minimal most people don't even know if they are related to shading, or weather or actaul current.
You are absolutely correct. Have an Enpahse Microinverter system and tried to get an expansion by 4 more panels. The Installer never came around to do it. Now I understand. There are probably no compatible micro inverters available anymore.
Hi, nice comparison. have you compared it from the standpoint of losses for a DC power to cone down from a roof to the garage vs. ac power?
Nice Video Martyna, Just notice i took the risk and went with microinverters since my house the only way was installing those box in the front of the house and did not like the look on the other house I see since they only had 1 String Inverters and my configuration needed 2 Inverters. So i took the risk as anything in life. Hopefully i get a lot of years out of the 8 Microinverters on my roof. Live in Panama. 2025 will try to go with the battery when I get some financially breading room for that investment
I am just glad you went solar. And I wish you all the best and I am truly hopeful that the micros will do well and better in the future. Thank you for sharing your experience.
This is the confirmation bias I was looking for 😄 - String inverter it is.
Hi... Just watched your video, thanks it was very informative. So I was sitting on the fence trying to decide between Microinverters and String Inverters, now i can say I'm still on the fence.
The reason for my statement is I purchased a 5 KW solar system when my house in Mexico was being built. The current system has a String inverter and at full capacity.
So to add capacity the original installer wants to add a net new 6KW inverter. I have been advised by another company to leave the old system and just add new Enphase Micoinverters for the net new capacity. How would others handle this. Add a new String Inverter? Can you have two string Inverters? Or just add Microinverters Enphase that claim you can do add on KW as required. Opinions please.
HEY!!! I am sorry I am just now responding. So if you have an existing string at max, you really can do either option. BUT if the original inverter brand is still working and in business why not add the same product? That way you have the same monitoring for both. Most installers unfortunately will mostly push what they like to install. But in your case you will be okay either way, I WOULD suggest another string. lets say another 5 kW, and that will give you more room to grow. If price is similar on both, enphase will be fine as well. They are the only micro I would ever recommend and I do install it sometimes too. Let me know !!!
I think all systems need to be looked at under different circumstances. There are some areas and specific systems that micro inverters work better. There are also many systems that a string system is better. The problem I have seen in the solar industry is solar companies that get fixated on one type of system, or one brand of components used. To really be a consumer advocate, different products for different situations or customer preferences should be explored. Some solar companies don't push a different type or brand because they simply learned with that one type/brand and they don't know anything about other options. This makes them limited in my opinion. That's one thing I really admire about Solartime. You really can be assured that RIGHT type of system is being offered to the customer because they know about all types and brands of systems and can install many different types. I totally understand Martyna's preference on string systems because I share those preferences on most systems. (But of course, not ALL systems)
Very very true! Thank you for sharing your thoughts on the subject.
I feel like lots of companies like to go an easy route and just teach their installers one product, and when they try something new, its the installers that complain since as humans we dont like the change...
Again thank you for sharing ! :)
-Martyna
Great video and I am convinced when I am ready and I will definitely call you for my project which will be all home solar. And request strings
How many timed you have to repair or replace String Inverters in 25 Years and what would be the overall cost of it?
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and ideas. Very interesting perspective. I’ve been watching and thinking about the various systems but found your perspective on this well thought out and thoughtful from the installation perspective. Wishing you and your family the best.
Having worked in large scale solar for 13 years, the big problem with micro inverters is they will be obsolete in less than 7 years, so getting microinverter replacements will be hard after the system is more than about 5 years old. With string inverters, they're easier to replace years down the road. Further, if you install the string inverter in a cool location, it will last much more than 10 years, trouble free, and most solar installers will know how to fix it.
Yes thank you so much for sharing your thoughts on this. I so agree with you and just wish that other installers would have some more brain capacity to understand that rather than keep selling people micros left and right... :(
This video is useful and made me think differently, thanks for the effort and it's always nice to see a different point of view.
Glad it was helpful! Thank you for being open-minded!
Great video. You make very good points 9:45 about if a string inverter breaks and that company no longer exists you can replace it with any other string inverter also 11:25 about those small devices not capable of standing heat for 25 years. But one benefit of using MI is by doing the inversion on a per panel level it eliminates the central point of failure for the system whereas in string if that central inverter fails the power output of entire system is lost. I have a question in order to bypass the shading effect, why not just connect the panels in parallel or is it that you need that max voltage summation in series.
yes and yes! The problem with parallel connection is the voltage staying constant, and string inverters require a certain voltage to start running, so its not doable... :( But the diodes really do the job with new panels. I am working now on a video showing the difference in production with and without optimizers. So far it is very interesting. I do think Mirocs are not awful, and they can be very beneficial. I am just totally worried for the future of them...
Thank you for commenting, I really appreciate that.
Martyna
Thanks for your reply and always looking forward to your future videos@@solartimeusa
@@solartimeusa not sure why you are worried...
Enphase is has been around for a long time and are a successful public company... doubtful they or Solaredge will go away anytime soon. In fact they own 90% of this market.
I'm from the UK.
On my roof fitted in 2012, is a standard 9 string panels wired up in a snail configuration so I have both plugs coming back under the tiles in the same place. Keeping the wiring to the minimum. And on my solar carport, I had built last year I tried the solar optimization units. I can get to these units easy, as the solar panels are the roofing material and if cat's decided to sleep on a panel it won't effect the rest! LoL.
All items are good and like you say, you don't want to much sensitive products on a roof to replace if fails.
Thanks Cam for sharing your story. So cool you were such an early solar adapter! :)
Martyna
I had already come to the same conclusion myself. It makes no sense to me to have the most likely to fail devices up where I have a much higher risk of damaging my roof or being injured trying to replace it. Instead I invested in redundant hybrid inverters, will be less likely to be completely down if I do have a failure, that isn't also down when the grid is down. I completely agree with your conclusion.
Hey Troy! Thank you for sharing your opinion as well and leaving a comment!
The single point of failure vs. multiple points decision is easy to decide. If you are in a plane flying across the ocean, and you have an engine failure, isnt it better to have four engines with one failing? You can still fly home on three engines. With a single large engine, when it fails, so do you. If one microinverter fails, I still have >90% of my power generation, and I can take my time replacing the failed unit. Yes, it is more difficult to replace a unit on the roof, but it is also not a major project. Finally, I would agree that if your plans are to expand your system in the future, it might be better to go the string inverter route.
Hey Mark! Thank you for the analogy! And I do agree with your points. The only problem I see is the fact that if one panel fails it does not affect the whole string. Of course if the string inverter fails your system is down. Fair points. I do think there are benefits to bothy for sure.
Thank you again for your input! :)
Martyna
For preference just try to imagine who you are: a passenger on a plane, or an engineer who is doing the maintenance 😉
In conjuction with a battery ESS (Energy Storage System), the micro-inverter systems seem to be more specifically ideal in medium-to-heavily shaded areas with a ground-mounted solar array system with easy access to the back of the solar panels and micro-inverters. For most other conditions and situations, the string-inverter + power optimizer combo would be the better solution, especially long-term, as you explained very well in your video.
Thank you Dan for sharing your thoughts. I share similar views like you.
I truly appreciate your commitment to string inverters and I had a very difficult time getting a contractor to install my panels with optimizers and 1 string inverter. I would like to add storage in the future and feel that I would get more efficiency charging batteries with dc than the ac/dc dc/ac conversion.
I know... so many just do enphase because its easy for them! Its AC so they don't need same electrical experience as they would with DC strings. They also don't need to properly calculate voltages. They just go easy rout, and created this false narrative that you need panel level monitoring... to push their product. Thank you for being open minded!
5:40 I think the argument is that DC arcs / fires are more violent than AC in some cases. Your micro inverter output is only 240VAC. But you DC String could be 600VDC +. The higher voltage is harder in Switched Isolators etc. especially moisture seeps in over time (5+ years), even if both installed correctly. My opinion is that over time the AC Micro inverters will be safer
so there are a number of things that made me want to go with microinverters... they have panel level monitoring of production, so if a panel or inverter were to fail, I would be able to see it immediately and be able to replace that panel or micro... if you had string inverters, you wouldn't be able to do this unless you had power optimizers at which point the cost is about the same as microinverters, but still with a central point of failure... additionally, the warranty on enphase is 25 years whereas most central inverters is 15 years if you are lucky, simply because microinverters are handling a smaller load on each one which is going to be less wear and tear compared to a central inverter (unless you oversize)... additionally, although having a single point of failure is nice for maintenance purposes, it is not great for continued production--if your central inverter goes down, you make no more power until you replace it... if a microinverter goes down, all the other microinverters are still creating power... on top of that, I have a ground mount system, so replacing a microinverter on this system would not be difficult as you can access the backside of the array... although replacing a central inverter may be easier than replacing a microinverter say on the roof, the additional cost of having a central inverter which is not even expected to last as long as the microinverters will add to the cost and make it so that the microinverter solution is often times more economical
that being said, you make great points regarding replacement of string inverters, as there are more options that are more easy to replace on a system... and if enphase were to go belly up, you are correct that the 25 year warranty wouldn't mean anything
I prefer Victron, Dc coupled, dc mppt 150, 250 or 450 vdc from the roof, transformed down to 48vdc which goes to either into a 48vdc inverter or storage batteries. Nice video btw.
Thank you Jeff!
I do like Victron as a brand a lot and have much respect for their product. I hope they will be more popular in USA!
Martyna
Thanks for the perspective. I've yet to make the choice which way to go.
I hope it was helpful, and no matter what you decide just go with your gut! :)
What about the benefit to know exactly which panel has an issue when that happens? In a sting setup, good luck knowing which panel has issues? Or am I missing something?
How often do you see panels have issues versus inverters having issues?
If you have 10 panels and 10 inverters, which one will have an issue sooner?
More often than not, the microinverter is there to tell us when the MICROINVERTER fails NOT THE PANEL.
Rooftop PV fires from 600vDC arching has happened here in Sydney Australia.
Sunshine on rooftop string PV panels is still live 600vDC.
Metal gutter down pipes from metal roofed homes that feed to pvc inground storm water drain pipes may need to be earthed if children and people can touch them at groundlevel.
240volt AC microinverter as well.
Your thinking isn’t far off from mine with one difference. I am looking to build my system with a ground install. The cost of replacing a roof that is supposed to be every 10 year is already expensive, but to have a roof system removed and then re-installed after a roof replacement is a big added cost in that labor. But to the point I am planning on doing a battery storage with a sting system.
Excellent video, was on the point of having a microinverter system installed the next day and rather enquired a string inverter system. Keep it going!
Glad it helped :) Thank you so much for sharing!
Martyna
I was thinking of going the microinverters route when I go solar in a few years but you made some very excellent points about replacing a single central string inverter vs multiple points of failure in a microinverters system. Also the fact that what happens if enphase goes belly up within their 25 year warranty period whereas a string inverter is more easily replaced from a different manufacturer. Thanks to your thought provoking video I am converted to going with string inverter.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I do see lots of cool benefits of micros, but just the future is whats worrisome. Its good your open minded and consider different options :)
Good luck when you go solar! :) The more of us the merrier!
-Martyna
Yeah right. What happens if Apple goes bankupt 😂😂😂
Nem 3.0 is making solar not worth the ROI which will put solar installers and solar manufacturers out of business if it gets worst. The electric vs solar is a casino house vs player and house always wins
@@drfootankleGet a battery and quit playing the game.
The grid tied no battery systems were a failed bussiness model.
Forcing a seller to buy at retail from anyone is not rational and obviously doomed to failure.
@@ghz24 indeed you bring up critical points regarding the challenges of integrating batteries into solar setups, particularly the hurdles related to costs and programming complexities. The expense of batteries and the need for precise programming based on seasonal and time-of-use variations present significant considerations, especially for individuals seeking personal energy independence.
In light of these challenges, it's crucial to recognize the broader implications for the solar industry. With policy changes like Nem 3.0, we're witnessing a shifting landscape that directly affects solar companies. The evolving policies and uncertainties have contributed to a challenging business environment, leading to reports of layoffs within the solar sector. This highlights the urgency of finding solutions that not only address individual energy needs but also contribute to the resilience and sustainability of the solar industry.
Your insights into the failed business model of grid-tied systems without batteries underscore the need for adaptable and sustainable solutions. As we navigate these changes, it's essential to consider the broader economic impact on the solar sector and explore how innovations can not only address personal energy goals but also contribute to the industry's stability during these transformative times.
Right now I have a quote for enphase system with micro inverters and ep cube Canadian solar with 1 inverter and dual optimiser what is your take on ep cube system ?
I DO LIKE IT! Based on everything i know about the product! I have not tested one myself, but will very soon.
The question I have is EP cube is a hybrid inverter, you could ask the installer why the need for microinverters? Maybe better off with rapid shutdown, or tigo optimizers. Unnecessary cost of enphase here.
@solartimeusa yes ep cube hybrid system , company quote me for a 13.3k battery , Tigo Dual Optimizer , 7.6 kW Total Inverter Rating , ESS Medium Backup, 200A Smart Gateway, and upgrade electrical panel , of course with 17 panels that I need do you thing this is the right system right now to go with ep cube or should I wait for something else like I believe enphase should be coming out with upgrade or Tesla power 3
I like most of your arguments and you are probably on the right path as an installer - KISS.
Regarding the panel based electronics - surely the panel based optimisers and panel based microinverters are likely to succumb similarly to the elements so that consideration is probably moot. I hope I haven't made a mistake getting the more expensive and complex microinverter setup - but I felt happy buying a BMW over a Ford and I wanted to see how it behaved. FWIW, I installed a cheap string of panels and a bargain basement inverter on my old house and it was still running fine after 12 years.
Great vid Martyna, thanks from the UK. CanI ask why you didnt go for Enphase micros instead of the German brand?
I think you are right when you say that customers come to installers with micro-inverters as the solution - that is what I did originally and my installer was surprised and asked why that configuration. I saw this video and your points made me rethink. I eventually went with TIGO (mostly from a safety point of view for rapid shutdown). So thank you for this - it saved me a lot of money. BTW I'm UK based and I think the micro inverter is gaining traction here.
Thank you so much for sharing! :) I am so glad to hear it and Happy producing!