Before You Cut Back Your New Fruit Tree, Watch This! Training by Notching and Dis-budding & pruning
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- Опубліковано 3 жов 2024
- Training and shaping a pear tree to modified central leader by pruning, dis-budding and notching, v.s. the common recommendation to head back the leaders and scaffold branches of fruit trees. More below...
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Pruning and training young fruit trees can be a confusing subject. There is good reason for that. There are a lot of different methods and ideas to sort through. The most common recommendation to head back has not worked very well for me. Heading back, or cutting the tree back to a single stem is the way most people recommend. It tends to create many branches that are very close together, while a stronger tree is formed by the modified central leader and delayed open center forms, on which branches are spaced farther apart. A better way in my experience to get further spaced branches is to use a combination of notching and disbudding, where most of the buds you are sure you don't want to grow are removed, and several buds are chosen to be the main scaffold branches and notched. Notching fruit tree buds consists of cutting a small notch through the bark just above a bud, causing it to want to grow out. notching overcomes apical dominance and the branch can grow out. These methods of fruit tree training have been known for a long time, but to my knowledge they have never been put together into a sort of system like this. Most of my experience is with apples and pears, so I don't know how consistently they will work on other species like persimmon, plum, peach, etc. They will work some of the time though and no system of training fruit trees is 100% reliable. Training trees is an art, not a science and living things are unpredictable. But you could hardly do worse than just chopping your tree off and hoping some branches grow back in the right places. If you are training to a modified central leader or delayed open center, it is almost certain the they will not actually. I am inclined to think that the standard recommendations for training our fruit trees can be improved into something that is easy to understand and carry out. I also would like to see a move toward maidens, aka whips, which are one year trees usually with no side branches, v.s. the branched or "feathered" two year old trees commonly available now. I would like to do a full on one or two part lecture series on this subject outlining what we do and do not know, what the future might look like and experiments that need to be done to determine how a system like this will perform in seeking various specific forms on different species and varieties of fruit trees. But I make very little money on this type of content and it doesn't grow my channel, even if it could have a profound long term social impact. So, until I can generate more income or funding for this type of private, independent research, it will have to take a back seat to shorter, dumbed down content for mass consumption. Bummer, but only so many people are willing to support or view this level of content. You can help by sharing, viewing, commenting and financial support through patreon or paypal.
![5 Reasons Your Fruit Trees AREN'T GROWING [And How To FIX It]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/FWsaiKgCXFY/mqdefault.jpg)
You've taken a lot of care to present everything clearly - excellent video.
Love the chalkboard, the clothespins, the sheet behind the tree. You are a phenomenal instructor. Thank you!
I'm glad I took the time to put up that sheet lol. It really does help. A lot of old pruning books do that for pictures.
This is one of the best tree training videos I have seen. Excellent. Thank you.
Me too
Brilliant! 30mins of top shelf instruction!
This was great, this is the only "first principles" style video I found that actually gave me an understanding on the underlying patterns so I can really understand what i'm about to attempt on my trees
It took me so long to sort that out myself back in the day. it is not that hard to explain it just needs to be laid out plainly.
wow! you have a knack for explaining complex things in simple manner!! THANK YOU!!
Great video! I’m not a novice gardener, but I’ve learned a lot from this video. One of the most informative I’ve seen and easy to understand. Thank you!
I have 32 apple trees I started planting them 7 years ago and have been learning on the job since I started. I have found doing things the way you suggest makes much more sense and have had better results with the way you recommend as opposed to most other methods. I have made many mistakes along the way and wish I had seen your video and followed your recommendations from day one. Thanks and great video.
Thanks, I love getting feedback on how this is working for people!
Very helpful and most encouraging thank you humble servant. I’m very glad to have found this reference going into yr two with so many questions being green eager this information has set the path more clear. I see the direction for the existing trees and ones to come.
In Kind Peace be with you
WOW! I really love your “notching” technique! Thanks so much for showing this approach. It greatly allows how to design an ideal layout of one’s desired tree. As an illiterate individual in growing trees, I appreciate you also address advantage and disadvantage of using copper wires in shaping branches as they do in bonsai practice. THANKS! 👏👏👏
You're welcome :)
Seriously...I've watched dozens of videos and yours gets to the point and explains so clearly. Well done sir.
Just a weird question. Let's say my tree is just the way I want it and it's now 5 years later, other than obvious broken limbs, pruning for light...yadda yadda...do you just let it grow or continue to reduce the size.
depends on your goals. It's possible to size control trees by pruning if that is what you want.
Best video on the subject. Period.
Good Morning Steve
Awesome tutorial on pruning
thank you
much appreciated information, thanks for taking the time to share. we just started our orchard last month and this video will be very valuable for us. I watch all your vids and always learn something so, thank you.
This information is invaluable. Thank you so much. I have been stressing about having to settle for what’s left from nurseries, having them shipped from across the country, and paying a small fortune for them. I think I’m going to give it a shot! THANK YOU!!!
WoW!!! Thank you so much, you just saved a whole bunch of maidens I just planted (trying to start a food forest ) from the usual head cut I always felt was unsatisfying without finding a good alternative. Your video is clear, top quality instruction, absolutely a revolution in tree training since, as you say, everywhere, in class or in nurseries, we’re generally told to simply « guillotine » and pray … loads of gratefulness and best wishes to you and your trees from France.
Excellent, let me know how it goes!
Excellent presentation, thank you!
Thank you, thank you, thank you!!! I have been watching your tree training videos and now have an idea how to get the tree shape I want. I moved into a house with dwarf apple trees that look like they are weeping. I happen to love that look (reminds me of weeping willow), but everyone said that there was no way to get trees to grow that way, yet I had 10 of them. Your's was the first video that gave me any idea I could actually train and do things to trees. (Oh, also learned how to make biochar from you too!!! So much better than my mother's burn piles that took aaaaaaaaaaall day and just made ash!)
A few fruit trees, including apples, are naturally drooping like that, but they are also trained that way. Someone linked a video once about a guy that trains all his trees like that as these sort of mop heads. They look cool and super low for easy maintenance. Cant' remember how to find it though. There are all sorts of training methods out there.
January 2020, England. Just planted a young whip - on a M106 - in it's second year. Had about 6 lower branches, 2 off now but lots of buds all the way up the whippy growth. I've taken the top out up high and will now take buds off and do some notching. I want about four and a half feet of clear trunk and I will now be able to get what I want. I'm really looking forward to the outcome. Your video has explained very nicely how to proceed for which I thank you. Any useful comment welcome.
Very good! I found you because I have a ouple young apple trees that need notching and a 2 year old pear tree I'm trying to figure out how to structure. Your series is providing all the information I need. Thanks
Cool, hope it works out. remedial pruning is a little less straightforward sometimes, but if the tree has plenty of growth energy, you can usually get it to do what you want.
Awesome info bro. All your videos! Thank you for your time!
With copious respect, Mr. Edholm, meaning you are right on about pruning or shall I say a logical version of proper pruning, I wanted to add that pruning can absolutely blend into an art, so often times for me the decision to cut or leave hinges on what I am being told by that little guy on my shoulder.
For sure, good point, once you start getting some understand though of course. I've said in multiple videos now that pruning and training is an art, not a science. But practical arts are also predicated on considerable understanding. my long term intent is more like a set of tools that can be applied to achieve multiple desired ends. For instance, many people head back to get rid of buds so that the young tree doesn't grow out too much while re-establishing itself. The dubiousness of that aside, disbudding can serve the same purpose. So once that is added to the tool box, we have another color or paintbrush to work with. That said, a basic system, or series of logical steps can also be very useful and easily communicable for casual planters, which still represent most people. But with training trees something will always go not-as-planned eventually and we have to get clever or creative.
Thanks for the demonstration. Now I've got lots of trees to work on.
Excellent, I'm new to this but really interested in growing all kinds of food, and other trees. This gave me loads of ideas.
Thank you for the broad sheet presentation, I got a lot out of it.
Greetings from Melbourne Australia.
Harry
I'm so glad I found your channel! I have been lamenting over having to prune my semi dwarf Santa Rosa plum tree for almost a year now. After watching two of your videos and learning about the M.C.L. form, I feel much better about making the "dreaded" heading cut to my bring my central leader down from 20ft to 8ft. I planted the tree as a bare-root in Spring 2017 and began weighting the lower branches in Spring 2018 so have lots of wide angles to pick from to establish my primary scaffolds. Thanks so much for the confidence! I'm looking forward to watching more of your videos :)
Cool. Glad I can help. Remember the form doesn't have to be perfect. Many trees are trained horribly and get by okay. That is to say, the health of the tree is first and not seeking some kind of unattainable perfection. There really isn't a lot of good info out there, so it can be daunting and confusing. Cheers.
@@SkillCult what does yellow tips , brown tips, curling leaves , dropping leaves imply ( respectively ) ? Thank you!
What is the ideal angle for scaffolds? Also I heard that for peaches , since they fruit on second year branches, it’s good to cut the already fruited branches each season, freeing up energy for the 1st year branches . Thanks!
that hen's conclusion remarks are the best! XD
Thanks for some very useful information. I'm going to test these on ash and willow as well. I've been treesculpting for a while, using my own intuitive methods, but if I add these techniques, things will go a lot faster and they will allow me (if it works) to finally start another project that I've thought out long ago and have been experimenting for but with only moderate success: I'm going to grow a house. A living wooden structure with at least 2 floors and a roof... With the use of genetically identical willow, I can fuse branches from different trunks (had it occur on two trees that shared the same root, which gave me the idea to try it with trees that didn't share roots and it worked, but not consistently yet) With your techniques I can actively plan the floor beams. The trick to growing a structure is light management, and the dominance behavior is a tough one to handle too...
Dude, I've been wanting to do that for years now! I have a whole bunch of experiments I've thought up for growing architectural pieces, but of course a building is the ultimate. I was thinking of poplar, willow, or black locust mostly. There is a locust called shipmast locust that apparently grows fast and straight. I'm sure it's not nearly as fast as the willows and poplars though. I hope it works out with the notching. Willow will sprout buds anywhere if it wants to, so I wonder that it might not respond as well to disbudding and notching. It will be interesting to see. Another problem is that if you dead end pieces into each other, like floor joists for instance, or a wall plate, they will not really grow much unless there is a growing point pulling sap through them. Know what I mean? You might need extra tops that you just cut off and throw away at the end, or most of the way through. I was thinking to start with one story lol. I think the best way to do that would be to buy a big flat piece of swampy ground somewhere that land is cheap. Too boggy for farmland. Then you could really cut loose and try all kinds of stuff. You need a staircase too :) spiral.
@@SkillCult The way I thought it out, the building will not be a modern day building executed with live wood, but it will be a whole new concept (and actually re-introducing very old concepts too). Spiral staircase is relatively easy, though I think you are referring to a staircase on a central trunk. The main build-up will be like early galloroman huts, shaped like a bud sprouting from the ground, with a central round void that has a constant ratio (so as the circle of the outer shell gets smaller towards the top, the circle of the void gets smaller too. In those old huts they would use open fires, where the top level was a food shelf, not only safe from food thieves but the food gets dried and smoked as well. The level below that was actually a shelf on which they slept. But I wouldn't use open fire, but on the ground floor there could be a massive stone element that gets heated in the winter to provide a stable heat, and remains cool during the summer to provide some primitive air-conditioning.
To have the horizontal branches be supported in spite of the gap, they would not grow radially towards the center, but all at a similar angle in one direction all the way through. That way I would be able to weave the branches until they poke out the building.
I'm not sure which poplar you think would be suitable, but the veriations that I know I don't deem usable because of various reasons. Some just won't form horizontal branches, and the one we call "canada poplar" is very prone to rot in living trees.
Willow is by far the most usable, although vertical support structure could be provided by ash as it grows relatively fast and is very strong. Any wood that dies but has to remain in the structure would be injected with linseed oil (we still have a lot of flax farming, so there is an abundance of linseed oil here). Speaking of flax, a flax blanket could be used to grow moss to cover the roof...
Ah, this is only the tip of the iceberg. I have been thinking out these plans for about 20 years now... I guess I better switch to mail. I'd love to hear the things that you have been planning/preparing/thinking up on this topic!
A large swampy plot of land would be ideal indeed, because then I could grow 10 houses, of which maybe 2 will fully complete. The others will be able to serve a purpose, as barns or animal pens... I have a small plot of swampy land (.75 acre) or at least it used to be swampy, but now fairly dry thanks to the 400 trees I planted, hahaha.
I tried this, and it worked
It rarely fails me in any significant way so far. I still want to do larger trials though.
This came 2 days too late, because I just cut my one-year M26... The rest ist untouched, so I give it a try! Thanks again and good luck from Germany!
Ha, sorry. I was trying to get it out since I know everyone is planting.
@@SkillCult Growing apples takes time either way! 😂
Alex Köhler Hallo Alex - so n Tip hab ich zum Glück noch von keiner Baumschule bekommen. Kennst du den Kanal der Baumschule Schreiber? Meiner Meinung nach die verständlichste und einfachste Anleitung zum Obstbaumschnitt. Welche Sorten Apfel hast du? Mein Gravensteiner wurde riesig in wenigen Jahren :)
@@strauchdieb7628 Hallo Strauchdieb - ja den Kanal Baumschule Schreiber kenne ich, sehe ich regelmäßig. Bei mir sind es sind mittlerweile mehr als 20 Apfelsorten... Schau doch mal in meinen Kanal, das Video über Grafting zeigt am Ende meine Veredelungen aus diesem Jahr - Gravensteiner ist auch dabei... Viele Grüße aus Herne! Sorry Steven for that german intermission :-)
@@AlexKoehler Super. Yeah, had to hijack the thread ;)
Well done video, thanks!
So glad I found your channel
Useful video, thanks - from the UK.
I've got a small orchard I planted, think my trees would benefit from a bit of training. They are all 2 year or more old nursery stock though...
Wow! All I can say is if anyone wants to start fruit trees, this IS the video to watch for training a tree.
Thank you so much for putting this together. I subscribed.
Now that you have the root stock, how long before you begin grafting the varieties you want to grow on that tree?
I grafted them pretty much right after making this video. A more normal approach is to graft near the ground and grow the tree, then add stuff as it gets it's branch structure.
@@SkillCult Since I'm new to your channel do you have a grafting presentation?
Great video on pruning. I just started to mess with bonsai trees. A lot of the things you're talking about they also talked about in videos about bonsai. I just wanted to put it out there if you're not getting enough information about pruning your regular trees look for videos about bonsai. Just wanted to point that out another useful resource for tree pruning.
I'm not surprised. I think if one dug into professional literature on modern fruit tree growing, there would be some more sophisticated stuff. Thanks.
Nice 😎, top tip with the notching (no pun intended). I’ll try that on my pear espalier 👍
I have a book that suggests notching under aggressive shoots to slow them down and even bark ringing older/larger aggressive scaffolds.
I don't use undernotching much. the effects of overnotching are very obvious. without controls undernotching is a little harder to discern. suppose to discourage growth though and encourage fruiting.
Brilliant lesson, thank you!
Excellent video
Excellent video. Thanks so much.
Soo helpful
Thanks for these videos. I've watched several over the past couple of days, and I like your methods the best. I purchased a few trees from the nursery, and some came as in-tact whips, but some came in heavily pruned already, and those that were pruned were headed back too low. For this year, as the tree tries to recover, should I prune back the undesirable limbs as they start to grow to encourage growth to a new leader, or wait until next spring to make corrective pruning?
Question: When is the best time to notch? I presume when the trees show signs of waking up in spring. Great video. Thanks!!
Just before they start waking up is a good time.
Hey, thanks for the tips and all the cool videos you're sharing, there's a lot of inspiration. This time I'm just a little bit surprised to be honest that people in your region usually let the tree do whatever it wants as you mentioned since here in central Europe I'd say knowing how to make the tree to grow the way you want is considered as a must if you decide to grow fruit trees (while people here tend to do a lot of other stupid things). Anyway, that's just a side note, thanks again for all your videos, especially those Days on the homestead (and also for warning me from buying that husqvarna hatchet in one of your other vids. :) Was almost clicking the order button). Good luck
What techniques do people use. I know tree training in france has been more sophisticated in the past due to the development of restricted forms, using notching etc. Pretty rudimentary here.
Excellent video, thanks! I love that you've made it easy for novices like me to fully understand. I have two questions. First, do you have a video that also shows how to manage the fruiting wood once you've established the frame work? You elude to the need to manage and refresh fruiting wood in this video, and I'll definitely need some more knowledge using your methods. Secondly, I have two espalier apples. Do you have any specific ideas as how to get the frame set for them. I bought them last year as whips from Costco, but did the top cut to get the side branches heading out. I'm wondering if this was a good decision on my part. Thanks for any help or thought!
I don't and it's different for different fruits. If you look at general pruning and production videos, you will get an idea of how to manage trees for fruiting. some you need new growth every year. Most apples and pears bear a lot on spurs, so you don't necessarily need to be constalny producing new growth, but sometimes you want to sort of renew the tree, cut out old unproductive spurs and maybe even force some new growth to set up new fruiting wood. Others bear on second year wood, so you are always trying to produce new wood and fruit at the same time. Don't let it intimidate you. Just learn about the different fruits and pruning them and it will start to make sense.
I think that espalier is one of the places where disbudding and notching will probably be most useful, but I haven't had the opportunity to try yet. You've seen the standard recommendation, but I'm pretty sure I could get a two tier espalier out of most good whips of most species in one year and in some cases, probably 3 tiers if it was tall enough. I'd sure as hell try lol. I'd just take the leader this year or next, whenever you have one, leave a few buds near the tier level and notch the two you want to grow the most. I'm assuming a standard tiered vertical stem with horizontal arms, but you can see how that techniqure could probably get you whatever you want. It will be most successful on dormant trees in fist year growth when the buds haven't decided what they are doing yet.
Great work, thanks!!
So informative, thank you so much man!
We have apple and pear trees doing well here, Asian pears too. Lots of other fruit trees growing soooooo slooooowwwww....
yes, orcharding is a game for the patient, future oriented person.
Have you ever done bud notching with other fruit like with cherries?
Thank you !
Great tutorial brother.. Keep up the good work.. Ty for sharing.. Plz share a short info on fertigation part too..
You mean peerigation lol?
@@SkillCult Hahaha, I have read ur article on peerigation and how u shifted to chicken manure (poopigation) , ..
We got a nursery persimmon with a 10ft central leader and 8 lower scaffolds in the 4-6 ft range about 3-4 inches apart. I would like to deadhead to encourage more side growth and prune to 3-4 scaffolds. The nursery said to not prune but the trees central leader looks so awkward with the lower close knit scaffolds? What do you think? Would I kill the tree or set it back?
I LIKE THIS VIDEO
Thanks, you answered some questions that I was halfway to figuring out. For semi-dwarf trees would you modify this method at all to increase fruiting area? Maybe 2 branches at each scaffold spaced out?
It partly would depend on what semi-dwarf. Some are not that dwarf and many will train well like this. For smaller trees, there are lots of systems, mostly trellis systems, that are designed for maximum production efficiency. They are not just training, but also pruning and renewal systems. I don't know too much about them. Tall spindle has been a popular one. If you want this kind of structure, you should stick with one scaffold at each level. Just choose other secondary scaffolds that come off of them to fill in the rest of the space as needed. It will fill in fine. More likely if you leave more it will be too crowded, maybe even more so on a smaller tree. My 8 to 10 foot tall trees trained with way are nice and very well filled in.
I work as a pruner on a citrus orchard, Queensland Australia, where of course the only way we prune is the open centre / vase shape. Its a nightmare to prune because every year you have so much material to remove because the branches cross and grow from one side off the tree to the other. I would love to try this method but conventional wisdom says that this open centre is the way we do things...although I doubt anyone has tried MCL and they wouldn't probably have ever considered it. This video deserves many more views. I'm sure this method is better..It would make the tree more wind resistant in that the tree would gyrate under wind which would strengthen the trunk year after year..any new shoot would only be able to grow out ward any fruit load would pull the fruit away from the centre which is not the case with 'normal' tree management. I know Fukuoka used your method (I'm sure you are aware of him Steven) There's also the issues of spray, sunlight, air, pollinator penetration etc. too.
Great video
and crotch rot...which kills many trees before their time
One more benefit that comes to mind relating at least to citrus is that we would take between a third of the tree each year we prune. Maybe close to half at times when the work is more reparative. This causes the tree to put on a huge flush of new shoots which of course grow in place where you just removed them and didn't wan't a branch which next year you will have to remove. I feel this method would lead to less pruning. Fukuoka famously didn't prune his trees after early year training..
I've read Fukuoka's book a long time ago. I don't know much about citrus or what is needed to get good ripening. I know there tends to be quite a bit of conservatism around pruning or local trends that persist. One of them is conventional training. The authors of tha apple tree framework study I referenced looked as far back as they could and for literally hundreds of years in the literature, the recommendations have been pretty consistent. Once the forms recommended started to change to MCL and DOC, the recommendations for training to get there stayed the same and they don't work that well, so no one actually uses them much, or they use a sort of weak attempt that ends up more like a regular open center.
@@SkillCult I've worked on all kinds of orchards in Australia, apples, stonefruit, the lot...I can reliably say that no-one tries CL type training. It probably start with the nurseryman in part because I've also never known anyone who starts and grafts their trees. It used to be the norm. Also almost no-one top-works they're trees anymore...But I don't have to tell you about lost skills.
I was recommended to your channel via a backyard fruit tree FB group. I am getting ready to do my first pruning according to the information presented in your videos. I do have one question, when is the best time of the year to do the pruning? My trees are dormant now as I live in Southeast Michigan. Can I do this now?
Hi. It seems early, especially with the cold there. I would wait until closer to bud break. I prefer to do it before the buds start to swell though.
@@SkillCult Ok thank you for the additional information :)
Great info thanks. I am recently a first time home owner and have inherited a back yard with young pear, apple, and plum trees. I also have a very large very old apple tree that seems to have 17stems coming out at ground level, all around 7 or 8 inch diameter. Do you have any advice or resources on how to manage this gnarly beast? It really is beautiful and I want to do it justice.
Pruning overgrown trees is really an art and full of compromises. I can't offer much advice without actually just doing it. Sounds like you need to take out some of the weaker stems.
Super timing. I’m currently trying to get a new-to-me nursery tree established in a MCL form.
1). I assume you don’t worry about branch angle in the little top centerpiece thing?
2) How much energy do you invest in training the main trunk to straight vertical? My plan was to invest zero energy in that unless the tree starts leaning radically.
Branch angle can still matter in the centerpiece. that is all eventually going to get a lot bigger, so it's better to get them coming out at strong angles. but I'm less concerned. Not too worried about straight trunks. It can matter more with dwarfs since they may take much longer to thicken and stiffen up and they bear fruit sooner. It's pretty easy to put in a stake and tie it loosely for a year. Don't tie them tight, they should be able to move in the wind a little bit. One growing season should reset the wood upright. a little bit of wonkiness is usually fine. A radical lean might cause the tree to bend over a lot with a heavy fruit load.
So am I right in thinking that creation of the top centerpiece is kind of a heading back/ clip-n-pray process? At least to begin, and then you select and train the branches you want to keep?
@@nateb8245 Yeah, it works fine there, but if you want, you can use notching to get stuff where you want it and spread the branches a few inches vertically if you want to. You get lots of chances and years to get what you want up there and cut stuff out, unlike the trunk where you kind of need to get what you want in two or three years. You can cut it off at 18 inches and just cut it all off again the next year to stimulate growth, or prune off most of the new growth and select new stuff. Pretty easy to manipulate and work with that.
Thanks for all your advice on pruning, among other things you have shared. I have started to use your modified open center technique on all my trees instead of the standard central leader. I had one bit of advice for you, I saw a video awhile back, I can't find it now, that did some experimenting with the timing of when to notch. This person found, or maybe his video was based on someone else's research, that the best time to notch was 4-6 weeks before bud break. In my own experience, I have definitely found that the later I notch after bud break, the less reaction I get. Just wondering if you knew about this, and what your thoughts are on the timing.
yeah I've probably noticed that, but I haven't tested formally. I prefer to notch in the early spring before the tree really decides what it wants to do. I've done okay sometimes notching quite late though. I think the timing on this tree was fine.
Also depends on the growth energy of the tree and how well established other pre-existing shoots are. Thanks.
Ugh... :( Discovered this video 2 days after I cut back my newly planted bare root Mollie's Delicious apple tree only to find out I didn't really have to. I was just looking for a video on proper notching technique and found this. Well, good to know next time I plant something new.
still a bit apprehensive about how to cut my 3 apple trees but better informed and will give it a go. I have 2 plum trees too, any advice on those? bought all 5 as "2-3 year olds" from nursery last May and they do look like how you describe nursery trees
Lets see if I understand this right. So while a individual side branch off main stem can shunt resources from getting to others above it. Lower branch never itself supplies anything extra to ones above. And must also supply itself enough produced resource, or tree could self prune anything that's becoming an overburden. But during earliest stage growth, tree normally supplies required resource until branch is up and running on its own.
Then by notching above bud, one is cutting off any Auxin hormone supplied from apical meristem that normally keeps lower bud growth in check. _I had seen an experiment theorizing how, once an apical meristem is severed. A resulting Streganose hormone had begun to influence lower buds quicker than Auxin level change._ (Strega term a Latin word witch)
That sounds about right. As far as I can tell, resources don't come down a large scaffold and then contribute resources to other branches in any kind of direct way. Of course root gowth is inflenced by the growth of the top, so maybe indirectly? I'm not sure, but that is what it seems like. There seems to me to be an interplay between how much vegetative growth is gathering light and food, influencing limb growth, but also the diameter of the branch. I've just noticed that if one gets ahead, of the others it wants to stay ahead, and if one gets too far behind, it doesn't ever compare to the bigger ones. I think the potential way to balance that is to remove enough growth on very dominant branches that weaker ones grow out. Or like with secondaries. If you want a secondary to grow a lot and get big to fill in a space, don't over prune so as to leave extra leaf area. Those are my observations anyway. I guess we can think of the tree and limbs as getting "food" from both ends. Some is guided in through the stem and it seems to me that the bigger the stem, the more stuff it pulls off. And some is gathered as light and carbon for building.
Thanks Thrill Skill Cult, gonna really enjoy checking out rest of your channels videos. As we get older we learn something new from every following season, especially when nature throws us a curveball causing something unexpected. Even by that day we pass away, will still take unanswered questions to our grave. Enjoy Spring 2019. _PS: Here link to my Arborist blog documenting America's Emerald Ash Borer event._ scottieashseed.wordpress.com/
@@SkillCult, as an Arborist. As you do...I slow down growth rate by subordinating those largest girth appendages. Otherwise like checkers, they all race each other toward sky, with co-dominant stems saying King me! Otherwise like you said, they turn into trunks which lack any branch collar attachment. So by slowing their size ratio down enough between main trunk attachment and lateral. They can again be turned into better attached scaffolds once included bark production "no longer included" in branch attachment during tissue lamination processes in spring. Like you also stated, turning more upright vegetative growth branch toward a downward angle calms them down too. Most folks find retaining few lower growing temporary scaffolds difficult to do. As everyone feels good when "Cleaning & lifting" lower portions of crown. When in reality those temps help add trunk girth along with shading trunk too. Seems humans always end up doing opposite to the ways trees really evolved to function. Thus its good thing your informative videos are out there for greater public to learn from.
I hadn't really thought much about that angle. One thing I haven't mentioned anywhere is that if you let too many scaffolds grow out of the same area, the trunk is choked off very fast and drops in diameter radically. You've seen the ones where there are all scaffolds at the same spot and the trunk is a scrawny little twig left in the center. To me, a good modified central is a balance between that extreme and a full, unequivocally dominant central leader. It seems the best way to control branch size after they are more or less established is to control how much growth is allowed to happen on them. I'll be looking at that more going forward to see how much I can change the size ratio between the branches over years. The most telling experiments were where I let seedlings grafted onto certain scaffolds grow freely without pruning and they get obviously fatter. Most of them have been on secondary scaffolds and some have gotten very large, equaling or surpassing the main scaffold.
Great to know I can graft onto scaffolds, as some suggest not. Who they crapping?!? Interesting discussing trees with someone that has learned a lot themselves.
Notice especially on larger parkway trees how most larger co dominant limbs lack any branch collar whatsoever? Only because they are not branches, but had once been when just a lower lateral bud.
Seems when apical meristem fails to survive winter burn, especially when gardeners keep fertilizing late in summer. Making newest vegetative growth extension too fragile and not woody enough. Also screwing with elongation length between sets of axial buds.
It creates conditions causing burst of lower buds to crowd themselves out. Possibly resulting in multiple branches growing from same height of trunk. I guess not even two should exit trunk at similar level.
As you know each branch along trunk adds to lower girth. With branch first laminating new tissue over trunk attachment, then later trunks secondary tissue adds layer like paper mache.
Now imagine when 2-5 branches growing off one level of trunk, all feeding lower trunks girth. Trunk continuing above that point will look oddly skinny.
When talking about modified leader for understory and orchard trees. I favor allowing central leader to exceed permanent height. Then subordinate back to trees best attached lateral. Rather than multi trunked open vase structure.
I dig that tall spindle fruiting wall growing method with one trunk structure. Just requiring regular removal of 2-3 thickest laterals each year. By leaving stub behind to encourage new growth.
I just got 2 new apple trees. I don’t know how to tell their age, but they have lots of limbs and leaves already. So I’m not sure if it’s too late to cut them back without losing a lot of time/growth
You can select the branches you want for main scaffolds. If there are a lot, you can probably get enough the first year, depending on what form you are going after.
nice
Great content! i have been prunning young bareroot tress this way and so far, it has been working excellent. I have one question though; I recently got potted tree from nursary that must have been a few years old. During the years, they have pruned all the lower branches so that the canopy starts quite high up on the main trunk, which is not what i want. Also all the lower undeveloped buds seem to have been removed.
Is it still possible to encourage new branches in the lower part of the trunk using notching technique above old pruned/removed buds? or do i have to cut down main trunk to deired height where i want first branch and from there, leave main central leader which will grow fresh buds for future side branches?
That's why I like whips :) you can do what you want with them. It depends. some species are much better about throwing small dormant buds. what species?
@@SkillCult it is apple tree fuji variety. As i said, all lower braches were removed and there seem not to be any vegetative buds remaining. Only healed/partially healed cut off branch wounds. I was thinking about notching above few of those wounds and see what happens. Do you think it may work to revive those spots? If by the end of the season no growth will occur, i will cut back the main trunk as i said, and loose a few years of precious growth :(
@@mojkanal100 cutting it back is not a bad plan. If the tree is taken good care of, it might grow a really tall whip and even some side shoots. but go ahead and notch those spots otherwise, it won't hurt anything. The heal up pretty quick.
@@SkillCult will try the notching first and will see from there. Thanks to your very informative content i have confidence to experiment outside standard tree prunning techniques, which gives me even more joy working with the nature 🤗 Keep up the good work man! ✊
This is so good. Your a great teacher, thank you. Would this be a good way to shortcut an espalier tree? Or could I buy the 2 year tree that seems to have branches close to where I want them and kind of bend them down? The -retrained 4 year old trees are just so pricy but I hate to wait so long.
I haven't tested it, but I suspect it will be an awesome way to get your espalier form super fast. I think it will probably be one of the most useful applications actually. The one possible drawback though is that if you want the extra buds on a vertical stem to be become fruiting wood, then you wouldn't want to disbud. You might be able to notch above buds you want to grow out and notch underneath dormant buds that you want to be fruiting wood. I don't use under notching a lot, but it is used to have the opposite effect. It's okay to use whatever limbs you have and you don't have to use any of the classical forms either. If you want it to look a certain way or fit your trellis, then that is one thing, but you can bet creative. I would prefer to start with a whip, but they are often hard to find.
SkillCult awesome thank you! I’ll test it out
Thank you for sharing your experience .
Good information and well presented.
Just scribble you channel.
Brilliant thanks. How might you apply these principles to espalier for apple and pear trees from one year old whips. All the guides I have read say to head the whip after planting to 4" below the first wire ensuring three buds below, (if doing a horizontal tee cordon style).
I haven't done that, but I would leave it full length and remove most of the buds, but leave maybe 4 at each desired tier. Notch the two I wanted to grow the most and clip them to guide the branch angles out. Let the extra shoots grow a little bit for insurance, until the arms are established. If it is not as high as the tallest tier, just let it grow and do the same next year, or pinch the tip when it hits the next wire to encourage side growth. Should work pretty good I would think.
@@SkillCult Thanks, I’ll experiment trying your approach and the ‘traditional’ way to see what works best. I’m wondering if the heading method is used to take account of vertical growth of the main trunk so that the cordons don’t end up above the guide wires which are usually set distances apart and placed before the tree is even planted?
@@SkillCult Hi, got delayed a season but its first week of spring here and Im in a colder district so the apples and pears I just purchased haven't broken bud. I got four heritage apples and three pears. A combination of good sized whips and some feathered whips. On one of the pear whips at about 1.8m tall there are clearly swollen buds in the top half of the whip with less pronounced 'bumps' lower down the tree. Ideally its the lower section of the whip I need branches but Im not convinced even with notching that it would push branches low down unless I head the whip below what are obvious buds. I could pick a point leaving a couple of buds below a heading cut for insurance I suppose. Its a shame as I would be left with such good scion wood but don't have any root stock or interstem stock as the pear is on QuC. I suppose I could try and take chip buds from above the heading cut and graft these lower down exactly where I want the branches but a. I have never tried budding or grafting before and a branch from an existing bud will always be stronger at its union with the trunk than a graft would. Notwithstanding as its going to be an espalier and supported by horizontal wires it should be fine.Any advice gratefully received.
If there are buds where you want branches, don't cut it back. Do the experiment and see what happens. Remember, it is not just if there is a bud and not just notching, but by disbudding most of the rest of the buds, you give even more incentive to them to branch out. There is always a chance it won't work, but I have seen this system be extremely effective on apples and pears. If you have issues that can't be resolved otherwise, you can always resort to chipping buds in. strength won't be an issue on espalier. @@allanpennington
I was about to head back my two year old cherry Morello tree to keep it from growing too tall. This tree is 170 tall and it already has a vase shape with all branches growing from the same level. Does it mean it’s doomed to eventually fall apart? What if I cut it back knee-high? Thanks
So I’m watching all your videos and it’s kind of late but can I do this after dormancy broke? I have 2 year old bare roots that were planted in pots by the vendor that I put in ground. They are leafed out now though all blossoms removed so they give root production
Also- I’m in a humid area will that introduce fungus or disease in (notching?) or will it heal quickly
I've never had any issues with disease in the notches, but we are not too disease ridden around here. You can try, to train after dormancy has broken. The 1925 apple study, they actually did a lot of "disbudding" in June. That may have been in the north when things were just getting under way though, but still not dormant. Sometimes the tree will have decided it wants to grow certain buds and limbs a certain way and you end up fighting against that. I think over time better, or maybe more sure, techniques could be developed to do that. Mostly you have notching and isolation to work with. Isolation is acheived by disbudding and removing competing growth. The tree needs to grow and make leaves and structure, so you narrow it's choices, then notch to further encourage what you want. But, alas, it's not foolproof, so try to leave yourself a few options.
SkillCult
Thank you! We tend to have a lot of fungal issues where I am, especially in summer. This is why I’m concerned to do it now rather than later (winter). Thanks for all the advice
you might be able to smear just a small dab of pine sap or similar on the cut to keep it healthy until healed if that actually turns out to be a problem.
SkillCult
Good idea! Have plenty of pine!
How soon after planting the tree can we prune them??
Depends on where you live and what tree etc. but usually right away. Bare root trees in the spring, set them up as soon as they are planted. Ideally before the buds break.
Great video, man. What rootstock size and variety do you use to make a frankentree from? I know you said standard, so is that similar to an EMLA 111 rootstock?
Any size. I have some that are about 8 feet tall (interstems) and full size. you can really do any size.
Do you ever use weights in order to get the branches further out?
I use weights, spreaders and stakes with cords, depending on the situation. And clothespins in the first month or two of shoot growth
So how much space should there be between the main scaffolds.
about 8 to 12 inches is usually good. If you are training a really big standard tree, could go more. But don't obsess if one is 6 inches and the next is 14, it will work fine.
@@SkillCult thanks for the info can't really find that much on google
Do you have a exclusively pear tree focused video?
Not really. Growth is slightly different, but they are so similar to apples that you can largely follow the same type of strategies in growth and training as well as grafting. They just tend to be more upright (most not all) and like to grow tall.
Does notching BELOW a limb impede it's growth? That would be if you wanted to slow the growth of a certain limb so that other limbs can catch up. Of course, the ones you want to catch up will be notched above. Or does notching only work on buds that haven't started growing?
Jerry Bee It works on branches as well, and the idea of notching below for slowing the growth seems logical to me. Haven’t tried it yet though.
@@mihacurk Thanks.
I'm familiar with the "regular" way of training and pruning, but this notching method is very interesting.
Yeah, notching below a bud or branch can be used that way
I have notched below established wood , but not much and it hasn't seemed to have much effect. That is why a long term trial is needed to test just that sort of thing. It can't hurt, but I wouldn't rely too much on it. Other ways to slow the growth of existing branches are to limit leaf growth and head back a lot. Once the tree sets a branch that is larger in diameter than the other branches, it seems to funnel more resources into it, sometimes at the expense of other growth on the tree. There is also a positive feedback between the amount of growth on a limb and it's already large size. Growth I think is determined by multiple factors, but two important ones are the amount of energy gathered by that limb and it's diameter. If a larger diameter tree has more root resource to work with, it grows more and then has more leaf area, which favors it's growth as well. I've observed this with trees where the scaffolds are attained over several years, so the first one or two are considerably larger and they seem to stay that way, or sometimes maybe get even bigger. And not just one growth ring bigger, but just bigger. Usually this doesn't present a major problem, but it certainly can and if there are easily applied interventions to attain balance without undue damage or significant delay, why not use them? It might be hard to really test that stuff though without enough trees to have some controls available over a number of years. I've not really used notching below buds much, but will probably do it more in the future as part of more organized experiments for getting early fruiting wood on new fruiting wood, or maybe suppressing side growth in year one. Like I said, might as well try it. I've tried notching above new shoots or smaller branches on established trees, which sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. Often the existing large scaffolds seem to be pulling too much already to favor a new limb forming. There may be more drastic interventions like short term or partial girdling. A person can only learn so much by tinkering without controls over a decade or two, so again, I think some sizeable trials could answer a lot of questions.
@@masonheipel Thanks. I'll be watching your results. lol
If I purchased a pear or Apple tree already formed the “incorrect” way, is it viable to hit the reset button by pruning everything away except the main leader and wait for buds to emerge so that proper forming begins?
new buds may or may not emerge, and only where branches or buds were before. If you cut back to a good bud, and grow the top into a single new whip with no other branches., you can just go from there with a clean slate. Or just accept it how it is. most trees are trained like crap. Yeah the can have issues and fail, but it more or less works out. Don't be picky to the point that you're wasting time or setting it back too far. Also, some trees will not grow a whip, but will branch out the first year.
SkillCult Thank you Steven. Your videos have been quite helpful to me. My wife and I purchased an 80 acre parcel two years ago and it has always been my dream to have fruit trees. I have planted several dozen, many of them whips. I’m so glad I ran across your clothespin trick before I lopped them at the top as is usually suggested. Deer are an issue so I’m trying to make sure the first primary leader is high enough to eventually be out of their reach, though they like to get on their tip toes I’ve noticed for leaves. I’ll be following along and hope to purchase some grafts from you when I collect/grow some rootstock and am confident enough to try.
Does this still work if the bare-root tree I got already has a 3/4" diameter? These trees are pretty skinny compared to the "stick" I got. I'm pretty sure it's more than just 2 years old (fruiting size).
It may go pretty well, but the younger the tree and buds are the more malleable they will be in terms of being influenced. It maybe a little anthropomorphic, but the young tree hasn't really decided what the buds are going to be yet and what the general form of the tree is, so first year growth is easiest to steer. It depends on what is already there, the state of the current buds, vigor, species, variety, etc.
Do you have a tree stake recommendation?
Any junk laying around that will work. The main thing is not tying off tight. I usually end up using tee posts. You can also tie off to stakes in the ground or surrounding objects. Sometimes you only need half a year.
Do you think that notching would work on fig trees as well? I suppose I could just try and find out but I’m curious if you’ve already tried Steve.
I'm not sure, but I would guess that trees that don't respond to notching will be the exception, though some will respond better than others. Let me know if it works!.
SkillCult looks like it worked! I see a new bud pushing out right below the notch :-)
@@cholcombe973 excellent. they often respond very fast.
Ok, what to do if you just bought a pear tree and its 5 feet tall with no buds that healthy. The tree has a bunch of damage buds in shipping. should i then top the tree and encourage the tree to set out new buds?
If there are not enough buds to get 3 to 4 branches where you want them, yes, cut it back and grow a new healthy whip. then you can do this next year.
You can just cut to one or two healthy buds and let it grow.
@@SkillCult the problem is there is only 1 healthy bud on the whole tree and its at 4 feet tall, I want the tree to start making branches at 30 inches tall. So do I just let it grow from the 4 foot bud and hope it tries to put new buds on the lower part of the tree? Or can I just cut it at 30 inches or so and force new buds? Not sure if that will kill a pear tree. I know with cherry trees thats not a good idea
@@KingDupue that's rough. Usually there are a couple dormant buds at the base of the large buds. Chance are you can see them. If you can pick out a few of those to leave and cut it back, you'll probably get growth. It wants to grow and will find something to push if there is anything and it has the energy. Look real close for those little buds hiding. They are there just for emergencies like that.
@@SkillCult It looks like the tree is waking up for spring and there were a couple hidden dormant buds. I didn't even see them until they started to swell very slightly, and now i can see a couple green pieces peaking through. I have never seen buds this small before.
how are you apple breeds going?
It was a bad year. I have a few tasting vids from this year. I think this season coming will be better
@@SkillCult great cant wait!!!
can you notch any fruit tree? grape vine even?
Some species are going to respond better than others, but all trees have the same growth mechanisms to at least some extent. Grapes I'm not sure, but I would suspect so. let me know if you try it.
The new research for tall spindle say not to head. And minimal pruning for 3 years. Funny how they new that 100 years ago
Would it work here in finland
I don't see why it would not.
@@SkillCult ok
So, when is the best season to do this pruning? Now?
The best season to do this type of training is when the trees are still dormant and the buds haven't decided what they are doing yet, but you can. do it later if you have to.
We have blossoms already, so it’s probably too late this year!
@@JUSTINandKADI I"d probably do it anyway. It might help to favor shoots that are looking like they want to grow faster/bigger over weak or stubby ones, but you can force weak shoots too with notching and isolating by disbudding.
tl;dr - people want the 2 yr trees because many people don't know what they're doing.
I recently read a work where the author said that people tend to want the more established looking trees because they think it will do better, need less work, and will show it's potential fruit earlier.
Many people also impulse buy trees as a way to "easily decrease their produce bill because it's not that hard to care for" while having absolutely no idea what they're in for and rarely try to learn it. In my view, trees are like pets: don't bring one home before you've really looked at what you need to do to make it live. Oftentimes people have horrible/disappointing experiences with both because they had no clue how to manage it and then tell other people not to try.
I wouldn't be surprised if the 2 year tree thing is driven by consumer preference and the assumption that a bigger tree will be faster and more likely to survive. Maybe in some conditions it is more likely to survive. Personally, I think I've had better results with whips, but most of them were stuff I grafted that was grown up and transplanted soon after lifting. As far as getting fruit sooner, the roots are usualy chopped off pretty much, and then they tell you to cut the top off, so hmmm... Not sure that really works. I like the pet analogy.
Do you have any Pawpaw trees?
I have one about 14 inches tall in a pot that is probably 6 to 8 years old. Does that count :) Not really yet. I don't think they would grow out in the open very well here.
This is an excellent video, well presented with clear rationale for the methods proposed - I'll certainly be trying this technique - thanks for sharing!!!
Thank you :)
You would get healthy fruit if you don't have branches stacked on top of each other. The top branches will always steal energy from the lower branches, and all your best fruit will be at the top of the tree. Which is not what you want because that is the hardest fruit to get to. If you only do 1 layer of scaffolding and all your branches are the same hight, and all your fruit will be equally healthy. As well as it will give you excellent air flow, which helps prevent pests and disease. But there is more than one way to skin a cat, all that really matters is that we keep learning.
In a hypothetical sense maybe. One issue with that approach can be bark burn in areas like mine where the sun is super intense That is one reason that I usually use the modified central leader. The small amount of center canopy helps shade the center a little bit. But allowing some secondaries to grow inward is usually enough. The modified central and delayed open are promoted as a way to get good light and air as you describe, but while forming a stronger structure. it has long been recognized that having all branches coming off in the same area makes for a weak structure that is prone to splitting apart. In reality, these forms seem to work quite well if maintained.
@SkillCult In my experience bark burn is a risk but not a huge one, but yes totally possible. As for the claim of it being weak I haven't seen that. I have worked on trees that are well over 100 yrs old that where grown this way, the limbs and trunks are quite often hollow from being over pruning at some point in their life but still holding strong. But then again we all have different experiences and the fact that you have learned from yours and you are sharing them, is awsome. I appreciate your videos, it is clear that you put a lot of thought into everything you do and I admire that.
@@nicksmartialarts9236 Here bark burn is a major issue. We just have very intense light. But they still used vase trees. You have to let enough cover grow inward though, or sunburn is an when and not if proposition. I still screw it up sometimes. If you read the apple framework study, I think I linked it, they studied established orchards to see what the common issues trees face later in life are. It's a pretty awesome study. They did a full literature survey, then looked at orchards and interviewed orchardists to determine what problems exist as well as how outcomes looked relative to the intent of the orchardist in training the trees. I've worked on old trees as well, and it's not uncommon to see open center trees fail at the union of all of those branches. It's not a given, but it's the reason that DOC was invented. How relevant any of that actually is would be difficult to determine in real life scenarios. These days fewer people care due to the prevalence of high density systems, where trees are expected to be short lived and the don't use any of these forms.
@SkillCult I will take a look at that study, thank you. I will say that I am not a big proponent of the vase form. But instead a more horizontal structure. It makes for ease of harvest and superb are flow, the new growth each year should offer shade. But if burning is an issue that may not work for you. Keep up the good work, I really do appreciate that you really put a solid effort to put out solid info. Thanks for the reply
DISCLAIMER: I am totally ignorant about this topic. I knew in general that you need to prune trees, but that's it. This is my first video on the topic.
QUESTION: If you can notch above buds to encourage growth, can you also notch below them to slow them down (if they are dominant, and you need the energy to go to other buds)?
I’m sure this is good stuff, but as we can’t see much of what is done, it’s hard to follow
I just don't want tall trees. I want mine shorter for easy harvesting.
the deer head my plants back for me
how thoughtful.
meck an wedio abowt knife sefty as you sed in the huskavana vedio
sing van
i like your engrish
mikha007 I dont speak eniglich fluently Im swedich
@@singvan2363 it was a play on words...your english is better than my svedish
I like your info BUT in my view it takes way too long for you to get to the meat of the issue. This seems to be the case in most of your videos. If you cut this video in half or two thirds, I think I could get through it. 10 mins on this topic is more than enough if you have your thoughts consolidated. 30 mins most folks probably can’t get through. Hope you take this as constructive feedback.
10 minutes is enough for a much dumbed down version, which I plan to make in the future, something closer to paint by numbers. Show me any single video on pruning and or training on the entire web that has this much information in it period, let alone in such a short space. I could definitely trim a little fat off, but that takes time and effort. And if I really trim it down, I have to decide what to cut out and what to leave and lots of people like the detail and thought process, so I can't make everyone happy. In the long run, my hope is to do quick start versions of a lot of videos, with reference to more detailed versions of the same topics. But then they will ask me questions that I didn't answer in the video. The truth is that if I did this in a more refined version, it would not have gotten done at all. And since I'm actually working on a tree, I have to go for it and I can't re-shoot it. I worry that videos are too long all the time, but I get more positive feedback on long videos and subject depth than negative feedback. If I made enough money to matter on these things I might put more time and effort into refining them into a higher production. This video has made about 12.00 in ad revenue since published and wouldn't make any more if I put another 5 hours into it.
@@SkillCult I greatly appreciate the long version as it gives much useful detail.