The real victim in this whole story really was Jennifer Hale. She just accepted an acting job. She didn’t force the pay offered to Helena Taylor. The harassment and threats that Hale had to endure over something she had nothing to do with is just horrible.
I remember Steve Blum (the guy you hear in almost every video game and who also voiced Spike Spiegel) chiming in on the situation about Jennifer Hale on twitter and he made it clear that Hale is absolutely for fairer wages in video games. She was leading in the voice actor strike and has been very outspoken about voice actors getting the recognition they deserve. So that she would intentionally screw over Taylor made no sense to him and that he believed that she knew nothing about the situation. And I believe what he is saying is true too and she was unfairly targeted. But that's also another point striking against Taylor because she absolutely goaded people into harassing Hale. David Hayter was also screwed over for loosing his role as Snake and he was also mad about it and has refused to even play MSGV because of that. But he still wished good luck on Kiefer Sutherland and he didn't send any of his fans to harass him.
Steve was probably the person that knew it was all bs since not only only is he a legend in the industry he also worked closely with platinum in the past, even voicing the main character in a few games, so he knows how they work
Well Taylor did say she wished Hale the best, but the whole thing about her not wanting to let her sign merch as Bayo because she made that voice makes her look pretty shitty now.
Yep. VA's are still underpaid, and this needs to change. Just because the person that tried to be the face of that movement is a liar, doesn't mean that the movement itself is a lie.
@@StormsparkPegasus it makes sense that some who tried to take a broader movement, and make it about themself, turned out to not be entirely honest. This isn't the kind of movement that needs a face
@@BmoreAkuma The problem is. The movement is about VA pay. She *lied about the pay she was offered, substantially, enough that it changes the conversation*. It has nothing to do with her "not being perfect".
I really hate when good arguments about actual issues get so utterly poisoned by duplicitous asshats using it to push their own egos and agendas. Voice Actors deserve more and Taylor hasn't just poisoned the well, she's irradiated it.
Hard to say deserve really. It's like actors, they get paid based on what they bring in right? Did anyone care about or buy Bayonetta for the voice acting? It's hardly iconic is it. The people who are building the game (engineers, programmers, artists etc) are probably the ones getting royally screwed all the time.
@@TheAlmightyAss Bayo's voice was quite iconic, but problem is the original VA just over-inflated the series' worth. Bayo series has never been worth more than 200 million worth, much less 450 million worth.
I have a simple question to ask of people like yourself, why do they deserve it? This issue is with Foreign Media is that VA is not required to watch/play it. Yes it may increase ones enjoyment of it, but that does not make it required as Subs will allow one to do so. Until you can give a concrete reason as to why it wont happen. In fact doing so will create less VA work as Companies may just decide to not do VA, thus making it even harder for new talent to find Jobs. I am sure those like HollowedJes will claim I am on the side of the Corpos with this question, but its a big part of the discussion that people refuse to talk about. If you want them to spend more money on VA you have to be able to tell them how it will make them MORE money by doing so. Companies will not decrease Profit just to make life better for someone they dont care about, and dont delude yourself into thinking they do. Until we are willing to look at, and talk about, both sides nothing will change.
Taylor admitted on Twitter this morning/last night that she did, basically, lie by omission: she was originally offered $10,000. Then they offered to increase that to $15,000. She said no. They then offered her $4,000 for a cameo. She still said no, and that's the number she cited in her video. She claimed she never demanded $250,000 (a number she herself cited there).
A voice over session is only 4 hours long. They wanted her to do 4-5 of them. Which is 16-20 hours. She turned down $750 per hour. SHE TURNED DOWN $750 PER HOUR WHILE THROWING JENNIFER HALE UNDER THE BUS!
15k isn't a living wage, tho. And her confirming she was offered 10k rather than 15k proves two things: she lied, but the folks at Bloomberg also lied.
@@pimpollito18 How did they lie? Did she show anything to actually support that and those numbers? She already lied from the getgo with the 4000 dollar figure, which she's now trying to do damage control for because it was a lie. 15,000 may not be a living wage for the entire year but like most have said based on the amount of work from her own admission she did for the first two games that's alot of money for very minimal work. Despite also depicting it as her profession most have pointed out her very limited va works.
@@pimpollito18 if she had negotiated for royalties instead of trying to push for a six-figure sum then it would have actually been a livable wage. I'm not saying that excuses the terrible Behavior towards voice actors in general, but let's not pretend that this was anything but Helena Taylor being greedy as fuck and then lying about it to get back at the company when they moved on without her.
It’s quite tragic that we all wanted the original voice of bayonetta to return and be paid properly but to find out she lied to all of us and we discovered that she supports bigotry, it’s as if there’s no winner out of this whole circumstance.
Idk, I think Platinum wins, whether we like it or not. They used union vas, paid more than was "expected" (whether that's a good pay or not in the grand scheme of things), and now Bayo3 preorders have only gone up.
The one thing I hope that comes from this is the stories from other Voice Actors are kept in relevance and is heard. Like seriously the fact that Revali's voice actor from Breath of the Wild has gotten more money from residules for voicing 2 lines in the Detective Pikachu movie than his entire contribution to the Zelda series is fucking crazy.
To be honest, BOTW has extremely limited voice acting, It could all be done in a single session for the champions Voice actors don't sell games, and are more expensive than movies
@@jesusramirezromo2037 Worth mentioning Sean Chiplock voiced 3 characters in BotW. He got paid way more for 2 offscreen lines in DP. He got paid more for his work on Freedom Planet ffs! And sure, VAs don't sell games, but can you honestly say MGS would be the same without David Hayter? Or TLoU without Ashley Johnson and Troy Baker?
@@jesusramirezromo2037 No they solidified characters into people's mind, making it a much better experience that lingers longer then the gameplay. Ask why Ledger is stated to be the best live action Joker, not the best Joker for all time? 🤔
@@Bloodfencer1990 Well, here's hoping, since regardless of one's opinion on her and her behaviour, she needs to eat and keep the lights on same as everyone, but after the damage she's done to her public reputation with this situation, I wouldn't neccessarily bet on it.
That’s an interesting way of saying THE DORR HAS LAUNCHED YOU OFF FARTHER THAN *JUBILEUS*, huh? Put an iceberg on that shiner and learn the lesson, love. Went All In… Died at the River. Better luck next time, and don’t bluff!
@@jondoe7036 I mean if worse comes to worst, I don't think anything's really stopping her from getting a regular job. She wouldn't even be the worst person to ever manage a McDonalds.
If people had used a little logic from the start, they wouldn’t have to walk back so many bad takes. Of course she lied. She had nothing to lose, even before this fiasco, she’d lost her only source of income and made a bad name for herself with her weird beliefs she enjoyed sharing online. The fact that people supported someone like this to begin with just shows how desperate the internet is to hate successful studios and corporations.
@@brandonkruse6412 "The fact that people supported someone like this to begin with just shows how desperate the internet is to hate successful studios and corporations." It reflects more the fact that game studios and corporations do all kinds of evil stuff on a regular basis. It's very easy to accept that they do that because it is what they routinely do.
@@CondemnedGuy Of course, but that doesn’t mean you should lie and manipulate everyone just because *some* corporations treat their employees unfairly.
It was pretty clear from the start that Helena wasn't speaking out for voice actors in general, but rather for herself, made apparent by claiming Bayonetta is hers alone and throwing Jennifer Hale under the bus.
It was pretty clear from how she specifically targeted Bayonetta instead of asking people to take a stand against the wider industry. It was also pretty clear from how she was trying to kill the entire Bayonetta franchise... Someone almost no one ever mentions is that Taylor *didn't* just asked people to boycott Bayonetta 3, she also suggested people boycott any hypotehtical future Bayonetta-related game. (Her specific example was if they made a future game, such as a spin-off starring Jeanne... So in her eyes it didn't even matter if the game involved the character Bayonetta... *That* is deliberately trying to kill an entire franchise.)
That looks so much worse knowing she lied now and caused this whole situation.. (not saying I don't agree the pay was low for the impact of the game but still, lying....)
@@coops9597 Yeah these multimillion dollar franchises need to pay royalties. Games like The Last Of Us are pretty much MADE by the voice acting and storytelling.
@@Bourikii2992 could you try saying that like they DONT work a 9 to 5 and make that money all day every day? Because it REALLY sounds like you think they make that money all day, and just have voice rolls lined up for every work day like you flipping burgers.
@@asksalottle220 That's literally what average means. That's the standard going rate for voice work in the industry. Literally even if they worked 1 day a month 8 hours for that day they'd make what I make in a whole year. 12 shifts to make 15 dollars an hour for the whole year. I'll trade them any day of the week lmao.
An in process soiled th entire cause by being a bad actor and backstabbing all the support she got. And she lied when h really dint have to, knowing that it caused the conversation, ... I know she is a terf and integrity is , but she coulsnt be any worse. Or class traitor.
I find it amazing people are still trying to portray him as a villain in this situation just for blocking people who were basically harassing him. He even offered her a paid session just to do a cameo after she rejected the final offer.
@@Purpletrident Him blocking people was part of the wonderful 101 kickstarter. I feel like everyone not understanding Kamiya’s Twitter persona just highlights how niche Platinum actually is lol.
The ironic part is is that Taylor could have said the amount offered and people would have still been pissed. Instead she chose to lie and publicly call out Hale. She sullied her reputation (like she cares) and made it infinitely more difficult for V.A.s to get better treatment and pay.
Jennifer Hale is an outspoken Leftist and anti-whlte and anti-Chrlstlan, so it really bothered me when Helena called her out. And I wanted to support Helena so much at first.... but I have a feeling that Helena is a Christian and/or conservative.... and that is unexcusable in today's day and age....
@@DrSleazoid Yeah seriously. If she had said upfront she rejected a $15k offer, nobody would care. That's why she lied: she knew she'd have less sympathy unless she pretended she was only offered $4k
I wasn't on her side even back when the implication was $4000 over 16 hours. That's still $250/h. One of the few VAs who I believe is worth that much (in terms of effort that's not Japanese) is Barbara Goodson. Not saying there isn't more, but I wanted to give a shout-out to the razor gargler herself.
@@DrSleazoid Because you have a limited amount of options ? You won't get 5 of these offers per year because otherwise it would be strange if different charakters have the same voice. You have maybe 2 bigger jobs per year and some small ones where you earn nothing.
@@molol44 This is the only place I've seen to express this. I think coaches could very likely be completely removed from any professional sport and the players could manage their own development. The coach basically exists to give players steroids.
It really is a shame how this all played out. This is going to make people more skeptical of the next time a story like this blows up, but to be fair a lot of people would also be looking for any reason not to side with the worker anyways, even in a situation that's completely cut and dry
me, from the get go of this situation, it seems fishy... i will happily analyse the next one independently, pretty sure the next time something like this happens, it will be better. as for asking residual for VA work... lets be real here, anyone working on the game need residual, we are talking 100 of people +, % wise, everyone will end up with so low a residual im not sure it would be worth it to have less paid salary in advance to gain residual.
Yes, and if taylor had simply been honest we could have had the conversation WITHOUT the distraction. $15k might sound like a lot but its still pretty insultingly low when you consider the MILLIONS a game like bayonetta makes. I can only imagine that taylor lied because she wanted to make herself sound more sympathetic instead of standing by how she actually felt. She not only hurt her own career but she hurt every other voice actor
Making a TERF the face of an important movement always backfires. I was unsurprised to find that she lied about the offer, its a shame she has now hurt the case for fair pay in the industry:(
Both sides lacked context, she did not lie about her pay. Also I do not see you saying Platinum lied by not giving us a description of what a session entails or they that they like to keep it to a minimum then. She may not be a great person but do not allow feelings to cloud facts.
@@starchilde8698Maybe shut up and let the grown up talk? My point baby, is that she did not lie, yes it lacked context but did not say false statements. Platinum is also withholding context. The feeling of if she is a good person or not, should not cloud the facts she stated. Even Platinum did not say she was false, just our understanding was. Happy now?
@@gHGhej Lying by omission is still lying. She essentially said "I was offered 4k... plus another 11k or so" except she just cut out the last part. It's dishonest and it's purposefully twisting the narrative to her side. A session is also at most a day. People are very hung up on how this whole "session" thing works and what her hourly rate would be, when I can safely say as someone who works in the same kind of gig economy and have done many studio sessions, how long the session itself actually is isn't really all that relevant because it's all you'll be doing that day anyway, and what you deliver on those sessions are the result of many prior hours of practicing and rehearsing that is meant to be covered as part of the very high "per hour" rate. Regardless, she's still being paid extra than what her union negotiates so who she should be negotiating for higher pay from is her union, basically, not twitter.
Unfortunately, the way things played out in this specific instance will end up derailing the overall conversation. It got lots of attention and turned out to be misleading at best. Now, when it comes up elsewhere, it will be easy to point to this and tune out.
Voice actors went on strike for 300 days in 2016 over residuals, and they lost. Anyone pretending to care is a liar. Fake outrage doesn't work when the thing you are pretending to be upset about is also fake.
@@miscsloan8834 you having to mention when and how they striked is kind of the problem most people not knowing in the first place sort of stops them from being hypocritical
People need to bring receipts and we have to get better at not taking everything at someone's word, on either side. Also it'd be REAL cool if we could stop harassing the third party involved in the situation. Or pretty much anyone? I'm good with not harassing MOST people and think that is an idea that should spread, hot take IK.
You know, I didn't think "I'm Jim fucking Sterling son" could be beat, but "I'm James Step-on-me Sterling" is truly the greatest naming phrase you've had. Well done Steph, well done. Also thanks Laura for the subtitles, these videos have one of the best subtitles I've seen and other youtubers should take note that this is how they're done.
I remember the conversation surrounding the original VOs for Silent Hill during the HD collection release, the controversy about pay and lack of residuals, their second class status, how they should have been paid more... This was litterally 10 years ago and the conversation has gone nowhere, it's simply now easier to harrass VOs online
I was thinking about this as well. I forget the details but I remember Troy Baker and McGlynn were at a convention or panel joking about Guy Cihi's demands for being paid for use of his voice in the remaster, because they were saying how it doesnt happen in the industry. Which is a bit shit considering it kind of should be. I think it was in the same video that they ripped into the original actors for their awkward performances.
Voice actors went on strike in 2015. It affected many different studios. I had a nice conversations with a voice actor director, Jack Fletcher, back in 2019. He basically told me it's better for the voice actor to get the money up front. They're not going to get residuals.
Guy Cihi is just like Taylor in that he outright lied about his contract for clout. Dude even lied to get the role; said he was out of work when he was a CEO. It was only him making a huge stink about it too. Clearly the person who learned nothing from that is you.
@@LuigiaTV "I think they should be given residuals" doesn't mean actors get to lie and say they were promised them when they weren't. Troy was right to point that out.
@@Ashannon888 I wouldn't call a cameo "the whole game". She didn't mention it was for a cameo at first. She made it seem like it was all she was offered for voicing Bayonetta. I'd definitely call that a lie.
@@Ashannon888 It's just a lie lie. She's been very deceitful over this whole thing and nobody reasonable should still be giving her the benefit of the doubt.
Its sad, cause now when another VA who is wrongfully paid claims the same, no one in the general public will beileve her/him due to this incident, and that trully sucks
People just need to stop believing the first thing they hear. Idk how many times we gotta do this before people wise up and wait for the full story to come out.
Eh. Just bring up the broader issue. Anyone clinging to this story to ignore the broader issue is choosing to want to. It's a good litmus test to root out who is interested in truth and who is interested in hurting innocent people for no reason.
This whole thing has just been one blunder after another. I was on Hellena's side when the news but the Bloomberg article has since changed that, as you rightly said, because Jason Schreier hardly misses when he takes a shot. Jennifer was caught in the crosshairs of this whole thing as a bystander. Something that bothers me still, is Hideki's response to all this with that vague tweet of his. The guy's team is currently facing harassment from a bunch of little shits harassing his team (Jennifer included. She may be freelance, but she contributed to the game's production and I'd consider that as part of the team.) and all he does is stick to that stupid persona he's made for himself on Twitter. What an absolute shitshow, good grief.
To be fair I kind of sympathize with him. How would you feel if you had a bunch of half cocked shitheads harassing you, your team, and your voice actors over someone who blatantly lied by omission? Helena Taylor has just pushed back the movement for fair and equal treatment for voice actors by a decade at least. If she had been up front about how much she was offered and then explained why that still wasn't enough for someone to live off of, then she wouldn't be getting nearly as much crap as she is now, nor would she be having her fans turning on her
@@magicman25103 I don't sympathise with him at all. This is a legitimate PR issue for Platinum; the least he can do is drop the alleged 'persona' and stop acting like a fucking asshole while it's ongoing. I wouldn't be surprised if it's hurt the company. Imagine being a grown man and sticking to your childish schtick while there's something going on that requires grown-up communication. He could've at least stayed silent.
@@pandawithbooks I admit that I've never really been in the Twitter loop, so all I've ever known is that Hideki blocks people, and apparently that's just how he rolls. I try to keep off Twitter because I value my mental health. I DO remember hearing about the Bayonetta 2 tweets, and I thought those weren't bad because he wasn't being as vague about it. People were upset that Bayonetta 2 wasn't getting a multi-platform release, and he responded with basically "Tough luck. Nintendo made this happen. They asked for exclusivity, and we obliged." I'm not trying to come across as blaming him for something he has every right to do, and I sure as hell would never condone harassing anyone. What I AM blaming him for is being vague about it, letting things stew, and keeping up a persona when frankly, there was no reason to keep it up when people were getting harassed. It'd be like if all of Stephanie's team here were all getting bad mouthed by association and all they respond with is "Yeesh, what a bunch of liars. So disappointed." Sure, they may be doing things behind the scenes to rectify the situation, but when you have a public image like Hideki does, the least you can do is be more direct to mitigate this sort of thing before it gets out of hand.
@@pandawithbooks Sorry, I don't know if this is aimed at me or not. But it seems like it could be, so... I don't blame him for blocking legitimate harassment, but I DO blame him for not having the good sense to stay out of this and let the company sort it out. Like I said, he could've just stayed silent and carried on. It was his choice to tweet about it and call attention to his behaviour. All that did was draw more people to his account, and make things more complicated for Platinum. It's one of the dumbest things you can do and I have no problem stating that.
Sorry if I worded it too aggressively and for blaming the two of you. That was not my intention there. Anyway, I only really use Twitter to follow and lurk around, and even that is mentally draining. Regarding Kamiya, could he have been more direct about what had transpired? For sure, and I wish he was. Could he have just not posted and let things blow over? For sure, he should have shown some restraint and just waited things out. However, maybe he had an NDA or something that didn't allow him to talk further about the VA debacle. I think it might have been Schreier that said that he didn't get the salary info from PlatinumGames (likely due to NDAs), and maybe that's the reason why Kamiya could really only be vague about what had transpired between PG and Hellena. And let's be honest here: Kamiya's not a fluent English speaker. He started his Twitter account partly to practice his English. His Tweet "BEWARE MY RULES" may come across as aggressive, but he's basically telling people that if they Tweet at him in English, he'll block them (again, stemming from the Bayo2 abuse). Again, that's something most people wouldn't really know about unless they've been following him before 2014 (Bayo 2 came out September 2014). As an aside, what's funny is that as part of The Wonderful 101 Kickstarter, you can get Kamiya to block you on Twitter, so this persona of his is something that even PlatinumGames leans on lmao. Anyway, you're both good people in my eyes.
Repeat with me. We have trials for a reason. We have trials for a reason. We have trials for a reason. If justice were a matter of who cryed more convincingly, like it seems on the internet, I assure you life would be much, MUCH, worse. Also, it's not obvious that it's always the poorer of the 2 who is the abused. Good and bad people are not identifieable on sight, unfortunately. So next time someone shouts to you "I'm the victim", instead of rushing to battle, stop and just say "Yes, probably, I don't know. I'll wait for what the authorities have to say on the matter after they gather informations and/or I'll try to have a more rounded understanding on the matter myself". The "I'M WITH YOU PURELY BECAUSE YOU LOOK LIKE THE VICTIM, LET'S CRUSH SOME PEOPLE TOGETHER!" strategy has never brought anything good and it's not a future evolution of the current justice system as some ignorant fool seems to believe. It was the starting point. Like...the prehistoric "unga bunga me like banana" starting point. A system can't be more unjust than that. Anyway. I liked the old Bayonetta voice. But if the voice actress has to lie and damage real breathing people just for greed, using the stupidity of the internet mob against themselves, I guess I can stand Platinum's decision of never having to deal with her again. I can get used to the new voice, anyway. I'm an adult
Sad... she is very very talented as a voice actor. I think the worst part is that she has done the same thing before. When she was doing VA for Hellsing Ultimate, she complained that she was underpaid. The union which was in countered her claim, saying that her talent fee was more than another VA voicing 4 characters in the same anime lol. After that she wasn't doing any form of Anime voice work lol. And NOW she hasn't learn a thing? THIS WOMAN!
@@makeitthrough_ Yup! There's also a theory floating around that she's RICH. And this sort makes sense in some cases. 1.) She scoffs at the 4,000 heck 15000 dollar salary. 2.) Doesn't seem to be consistently workind despite being talented 3.) Complaints of being POOR and then rejects the idea of doing cameos. 4.) Donates a 100% of her earning on comic con convention. I think this issues is of her feeling HURT and this her lashing it out! 5.) Doesn't mind BURNING bridges! For someone who claims to be poor and destitute she seems to not be bother at losing money, losing connection and being banned from voice acting.
Honestly the fact that it was believable that Helena was actually paid so little for the entirety of a main character role says far more about the games industry and its treatment of creators than it does about the people who believed it.
Programmers, testers, artists and many other people in the video game industry make far less than $1000/hour VA artists (which are fundamentally inessential, as many games without any or with little voicing are massive hits) make. Especially outside of the US. $15k she could've made would be year worth of salary for an Eastern European programmer or an artist in an Asian outsourcing company. Everyone should be paid better, not just Helena, who clearly thinks she made those imaginary $450 million herself. "Main character role" consists of being stuck in a booth for 16 hours total, reading lines written by someone else while being directed by someone else.
Taylor's comments were so unbelievable that she could've said Platinum hung her upside down from a helicopter over the Grand Canyon, and despite zero photographic or video evidence of this event ever occurring, just as many people would've believed her. Because people hate Platinum. Same claims. Same "controversy" same everything, except different target company (Except EA, Ubi, ABK) and people would not have been so quick to judge. Naughty Dog, these same neckbeards would've defended no matter what.
@@coreym8145 Lol it's very shortsighted to act that way if it's literally all you're being given for a million dollar role. It's like asking Robert Downey Jr. to take $15k for a 1-week shoot of Iron Man and then pocketing all the money you earn off him. That's not how it works.
This entire situation sucks something fierce. The whole debate over voice actors getting fair wages has been trashed by Taylor lying, Kamiya didn't help by being a colossal Kamiya about it and blocking everyone with a pulse, imbeciles with no life went and harassed Hale for existing (let's be fair they don't give a shit about the drama they likely just want excuses to harass women for existing) and everyone came out worse off for it. It's just, god can the game industry and community just fucking NOT for five minutes?
Frankly I wasn't super interested in the game to begin with. Admittedly it was mostly because I missed Bayo 1 & 2, but it wasn't something I was super hyped over. But, yeah, to be fair I was ready to believe what was said. But is it so ridiculous to change one's mind when they find out they were lied to? I will go and touch some grass tomorrow though, of that you have my word.
@@Mr._Sherwood Im actually your father and mother, you believe me because i said so right? The fact youre so obsessed with the games industry tells me you havent touched grass in a long while, and probably never will again
@@morgannyan2738 What's your problem? I'd much rather see someone who is willing to admit when they were wrong, and change their mind, than someone who stubbornly ignores facts and continues insisting that they're right. Go find some people who are still insisting Taylor got screwed, who are still flinging abuse at Platinum and Jennifer Hale, and give THEM some crap. Don't bother someone with the capacity to admit they were wrong.
Thank God for you. I've had a jumbled version of the song from the intro stuck in my head since Primary School so was never able to find it again. You have provided closure on years of irritation
Geordie Racer and Badger Girl were also good, but Through The Dragon's Eye was next-level. It was so ridiculously cheaply made, but still ridiculously gripping for an educational kids show.
Someone should edit Gorwen's dialogue into footage of Andre interactions from Dark Souls 1. Same actor and general tone of voice, so it would take a while for folks to notice what exactly was... off.
I just love how nuanced your take is, Sterling. Some of my friends have unfortunately taken to defending the idea that it's okay for VAs to be paid less if they're working for Japanese studios because "it's their culture to pay VAs less."
Except they treat Japanese VAs like movie stars so they often get paid ridiculous sums of money, so saying it's in their culture is just flat out wrong.
@@gwen9939 Only the A Listers get paid a fuck ton. B listers get paid ok amount I believe, everyone else is...an uphill battle. But yeah regardless, VA's should be paid a lot more than what they are now industry/internationally wide.
@@klisterklister2367 Yeah but people will defend anything if Japan does it specifically. Including having sex with 12-year-olds because it's "legal" there even though it's not. It's why Japanese media & society are in the shitter. Because Japanese citizens & employees won't criticize rich people or media & the west won't criticize Japan out of some bullshit sense of "respect" that doesn't involve respecting any of the people who actually have to live in that shitty country.
It's easier to be consistent when you don't go all-in crazy initially and then have to walk it back. A lot of games "journalists" are overly reactionary idiots.
But that’s exactly what he did. Going all out against the evil evil companies and immediately siding with Taylor, only to find out a week later, that Taylor might have lied her ass off and at the very least realizing that we don’t actually know what happened. The video last week is the definition of reactionary. It was Schreier, as always, who did the actual leg work and therefore remains the only legit journalist in the business. And now it’s like, doesn’t matter, I was still right. Believed the wrong person, judged a situation after hearing a tweet from someone who was obviously a bit too much in love with themselves and thinking, Yep, I know where that story goes, no need to talk to people, get another voice, listen the other parties involved. No, I know everything, I make a video about it and even when it turns out I got it wrong, I’m still right.
@@sebastianalhares "a person said a believable thing so i believed it, and when offered further information i also published that added information" --- this is not the gotcha you'll spend paragraphs insisting it is, chief. you'll look less dumb if you just take that trash down now before you get dogpiled. don't say i didn't warn you.
I just wanted to say that I appreciate that you’re centering the larger issue as opposed to taking a more myopic view. From personal experience working as a composer and audio engineer, I agree with everything you said about compensation for voice actors - and that I can still fully support that while also having experienced a voice actor harm our mutual boss on the project by lying about the working conditions. It’s frustrating to see things like that happen and yet it also doesn’t change the larger issues at all. As a side note, having come back from the ER yesterday for what turned out to be ulcer pain, I just wanted to say thank you for your content as watching this has helped distract me from some physical discomfort today. Please keep making these videos and being yourself.
Honestly it's so refreshing to see the dynamic between you and Phoenix and the rest of the staff you work with. God bless all of you, you're so damn happy and it makes ME happy.
@@ladynikkie there was just a lot of bizarre details that didn't make sense, like the fact that Hale definitely wouldn't have been a cheaper alternative. I'm glad the information came out sooner rather than later.
You know what's weird about all this? I haven't heard a peep about how the people who make coding and visuals get little in terms of residuals or payment. If their not the lead , main , or director who hogs all the credit like Sega and Nintendo.
It's all just semantics and lip service,no one making vids on this really gives a shit,they say how VA's are underapreciated and underpaid,when it reality they are overpaid compared to their actual contribution to the end result,they ''work'' for a few days or weeks and demand even more money AND royalties ,when the actual people creating something from scratch are already paid several times less and work for months if not years.
I believed in Hellena Taylor thinking this was about the voice actor pay problems. Now it's just about her lying and she lied and it's just freaking depressing hearing people say voice acting isn't important in video games. I hate life.
@@PlayThenSay This. The VA union tried to get residuals and backed off once they realized how replaceable they are. People play games for the gameplay and story. Even the music and graphics are more important than the VA, and I'm fine w/ reading text. VAs have a tremendously inflated ego and want to make far more money than the people actually making the games.
I really feel bad... you keep bleeding subs and for what? for being freaking awesome really, you get steped on (as you said) and keep getting up stonger or weaker IDK but always up, that I admire. Keep fighting the good one stef
good job, hellena for potentially single handedly setting back progress on a real issue in the industry by about 5 years if not more well done. i hope it was worth it for you
@@ooodatsgottahurt1625 voice actor pay especially for video games isn't exactly a hot issue, even in the 24/7 social media news cycle it's pretty likely we're not going to see another mainstream chance to talk about it for at least a year even assuming the inflated rate of once a year this situation very much muddles the water more than four cut and dry situations fighting uphill against general capitalist propaganda
@@ooodatsgottahurt1625 to put it simple, this stuff only reaches the news if someone's being extremely extremely unreasonable in the eyes of the public, corporations get away with a lot more shit before crossing over that line in the average person's eyes
Was there any progress to set back though? If anything she just made things worse: if fourteen years ago Voice actors were greedy, now they're liars and bigots too...
Only if you define it that way. You have a voice - organize and you will have many voices backing you up. Positive changes don't come without consistent pressure.
I ended up cancelling my pre-order. Not because of the boycott, but because the behaviour of Taylor and Kamiya has put such a bad taste in my mouth, I just don't want to play it. On another note, if you look at Taylor's credits on imdb, she hasn't done anything except voice Bayo since 2012, yet she argues she thought she was going to be on the street as she didn't earn a living wage. Wouldn't she be trying to get voice work in the 10 years she's done crap-all? I think her ego has a lot to do with it. I'M Bayonetta and as such the roles need to come to ME. Whereas VAs like Jennifer Hale, Troy Baker, Christina Vee etc all jumped on their characters' rise in popularity and sought out more work. This is my opinion, I'm probably completely wrong but that's how I feel about the whole situation.
In Hellena's statement at 5:10 in the video, she writes that Hideki Kamiya offered her "...an extra 5,0000! [this is presumably a typo for 5,000]". But doesn't Japanese separate large numbers every four digits, rather than every three digits like English and other Western languages? Maybe Mr. Kamiya was indeed offering 50,000 and simply forgot to move the comma. IDK.
Absolutely floored by all the people being *incredibly smug* about "not forming an opinion and waiting for the facts" as though anyone would've reasonably expected someone willing to break NDA and destroy any future in the industry for a _lie_ Despicable behavior on Helena's part, absolutely disgusted.
"I don't want her to be the topic next Monday" Meanwhile, she suggested that her fans donate to... an anti-choice billboard company. Yikes. The escalation is simply too fast for a weekly format of the show.
Called it. In these very comments, I said it was suspicious that Taylor never said how much time the $4K was for or how much she asked for. Then info comes out that fits perfectly into the gaps in her story and people in these very comments said "oh, those people are lying," even after Taylor tried to get off the bus by saying she wanted to put it all behind her (after calling for a boycott, hardly a way to put it all behind you). I told them they were being manipulated, and was called various things. Critical thinking is good, people!
Unless I misremembered, I’m surprised that even after questioning Helena Taylor’s character you still didn’t mention how she effectively launched the almost literal Witch Hunt on her replacement, as described in this update, with comments she made in her original call for boycott. I suppose you may have deemed that too much fuel to the fire against Helena?
Keep in mind Hellena Taylor is partially responsible for the harassment of the new actor. She said some really scummy shit about her and how she "doesn't deserve to be Bayonetta." So yeah, it's wrong and all but this wasn't sparked by The Gamers™.
Oh boy. When news broke out about the offer being "multiple sessions of 3-4k" I knew it still isn't enough for the THIRD installment of a HIGHLY SUCCESSFUL franchise, yet people would latch on to that. I knew what would happen on Monday. And here we are.
I'm assuming that you left out Kamiya from this video because you know that some of your followers will harass him? It's very telling that you left him in the previous video for no reason other than some weird "I think he's being rude and not helping the situation" nonsense. Your video contributed to his harassment full stop. You called him a twat and basically sicced your fanbase (the stupid part of it) on Kamiya's personal twitter account. This video is direct evidence that you do understand that your platform is able to indirectly (or directly) lead to the harassment of others. At least cut out the part with Kamiya in the previous video FFS. He's being flooded with racism day after day because of this mess. Edit: I just wanted to add one more thing. I am actually a fan of Sterling. I have been for years (and I still am despite this). It's just that, I expect stupid youtube drama channels to screw stuff like this up but I expect more from someone who has a long background of games journalism and critique than "just another youtuber that has spread misinformation that leads to a bunch of people being harassed." It's just making me sad to see SO MANY people, people that I respected, do this and not own up to the mistake.
For those who are apparently having trouble with this, voice actors are not salaried workers. They are hired by contract and given a lump sum for each session. Once that work is done, they have no income for the rest of the year without further employment. Yes, if you were getting $200/h guaranteed salary at your office job or whatever where you're guaranteed a check every month or so that would be amazing pay. Voice actors don't have this luxury of a consistent paycheck. That is why royalties are a thing that they should have since it helps with paying the bills in between their work.
@@Groudon0199 I did mention this and I agree. (I also think the salaried workers should be getting more compensation for their labor as well but evidently that's not a conversation corporations are willing to have)
It sickens and saddens me that the internet devolved what *should* be a greater discussion about fair wages for voice actors, down to childish bickering about Hellena Taylor.
@@SLKibara And thats how the conservatives keep their strength so high even in a somewhat progressive era in history, besides pre-existing integrated support for the monstrous ideology... People need to stop being so easily fooled by conservatives, I don't shame people who get tricked of course, we're all suckers sometimes, but still, im tired of seeing conservatives hold society back, JUST when we're FINALLY starting to improve and see wider societal acceptance of marginalized groups too no less! Urgh!
Honestly, this video shows why Stephanie is such a great reporter and commentary on the industry, not only does she make the point that should be made, but she's willing to acknowledge the bad actors on the correct side of the issues as well. Even with the true wage, it's still a problem that needs to be addressed. Ad hominims as aside, it's about the message, not the messenger. Thank you Stephanie for another fantastic video.
Thanks for the update on your writing in Vampire Survivors, I was actually wondering about it today and wouldn't likely have taken to Twitter to learn the truth.
When the other shoe dropped last week I was wondering if you would put out an update video on this subject. It really is a shame that this particular instance the gaming company seems to have acted reasonably, but I am still glad you have used this to talk at length about voice acting compensation and the issues that the gaming industry has with this subject. I am also glad you are willing to say "Hey, more facts have come to light. Here is what we got wrong, here is what we got right, and for fuck's sake stop harassing people!"
Jennifer Hale is an amazingly talented voice actor and I'm sure she'll do a fine job of Bayonetta. A pity it's come to this but there's still the potential for a great game.
Was not expecting “Through the Dragons Eye”. Last time I saw that it was being played on a TV, from a VHS tape, all precariously balanced on the school TV trolley
It just such a fucking mess. Not only does it go towards invalidating hundreds, if not thousands, of VAs struggling to get fair pay, this particular actor basically got behind the (hate to use this term) "fanboy" movement to harass another actor who's crime was simply to accept a job.
Happy for the followup, even if the drama is annoying. It seemed weird to me when most people just blindly believed Taylor's claims even before we knew anything more. That's another lesson from all this, besides the discussion about VA payment. A claim without evidence is not to be taken as full truth, and Taylor either seems very confused or seemingly more likely a terrible person (or obviously some of both). Also it seems weird that the whole drama instead increased sales for the game, goes to show how people consume based on exposure and drama.
Even if the original story of getting paid 4000 Kamalas for one job was true: - If I decided to boycott every single videogame that done something like this or worse, what would I play? What about Saudi Arabia beheading journalists and buying Nintendo stocks and entire companies like SNK? What about the chinese semi-slaves making our consoles? - When comparing her salary to how much money they spent and how much it sells, it's a low salary, but when compared to most jobs, it's a big salary. - Nope, Bayonetta is not a big franchise, without the money from Nintendo, it could have died with only one game, and PlatinumGames is not rich, they could have gone bankrupt. - She is not a big star, someone that will make people buy the game only thanks to her.
Hellena's lying. She contradicted herself when the story came out by more than doubling the original offer (from 4k to 10k), that's not something honest people do when confronted with stuff like this. If she was telling the truth, she'd have said "yeah, I meant 4k per session, sorry for the misunderstanding, but 20k is still not much for a game series as popular as Bayonetta!"
Glad you mad a follow up after all that and corrected the course! Actors definitely deserves more and that story shed a bit of light to that thankfully, still too bad it was achieved by someone like that.. Also, regardless of what you think of kamiya, him and jennifer hale didn't deserve all that harassement
its a bad situation, i would like VAs to get more money for their work. I want everyone to get what they feel they earned. I love Taylors VA work on bayonetta, i just dont understand why she went about it this way. even if she said she was offered 15k im still sure the outrage would have happened, i dont think VAs should get millions for their work. But i would be pretty happy to hear one of my favourite characters VA got 50-100k for their work as a main character.
"I want everyone to get what they feel they earned." :/ I wonder why whoever actually makes the game (the developers) are being ignored. This earns more than an executive, do we raise awareness on the salary of the management? (Sorry for the bad English, I use google translate.)
thing is, 15k is within union standards. It's above, actually, so if she wants better pay she needs to negotiate with her union, not be on twitter calling out Platinum games when they went above the normal asking price. That behavior is essentially trying to grift her way to a higher paycheck because she glanced the profits that the Bayonetta franchise had earned and got dollarsigns in her eyes, even though the first game is basically cult and the 2nd almost flopped. As the industry grows that money needs to go to the people putting in the actual work, I agree, but if we're having this conversation around voice actors we should also have it for developers, artists, composers, writers, and so on. I know that VAs are somewhat unique in that they're always contract hire(composers and producers are as well unless it's massive studios that have their own fully functioning music department), but the monthly pay for the actual game developers can still be considered ridiculously low for the success that these game companies are receiving. And now we're just complaining about capitalism again.
@@gwen9939 talking about one problem, doesn't make another problem disappear. Stop with that stupid reasoning. Yes many of the workers working on billion dollar game franchises get absolutely not enough money. VAs are part of those workers. Done. Happy?
@@Khazar321 Problem is if you compare voice acting to almost any other job in existent, video game voice actors are paid more by ridiculous margin even if you count the times that they're between jobs & being paid nothing. So what's the basis for them being underpaid? People act like you're an evil capitalist if you question it but no one's explaining it & the numbers being discussed aren't supporting their argument. Unless most voice actors regularly go multiple consecutive months without a job or the numbers being discusses are wrong even from the people supporting higher pay, it doesn't make sense.
Hi Jim, I haven't visited in a while but I'm a long time fan. Hope your well. Keep on trucking my friend. I was just revisiting a bit of Podtoid recently, Willem Dafoe stuff is just pure comedy gold sir!
I'll be honest, fuck off with residuals for voice actors. You can't realistically give everyone residuals, so why should voice actors be the ones to get them? They sure as hell aren't the ones putting in the most time and effort into making the game, they're not even the ones putting in the most time giving life to the character they're voicing. Also, voice actors can then get money at conventions for their autograph, anyone else who worked on the game can't. I don't mind arguing for them to get a good wage for their work, but this entire discussion seems to make them out to be so much more important than they actually are.
@Sara Øverby It's not. People suddenly going "Bayonetta is huge" are fucking laughable. This series wouldn't even EXIST anymore if Nintendo didn't reanimated it cause it was failure sale wise. Ironically the 3rd one would finally be successful since it's a more known IP + released on a console people own.
@Sara Øverby Nope. Bayonetta 2 is also available on the Switch. It sold 1.5 million Wii U and Switch combined. This has nothing to do with WiiU's performance. It's a niche game in a niche genre, rated M. Original Bayonetta is on all platforms from PS3 to PC, and still hasn't shifted a ton of copies.
@Sara Øverby "The fact is"...lol. You have no idea what you're talking about: Yes, Bayonetta is an iconic Character, but "her" Games didn't sell well at all- just check the numbers, and no, the series didn't made $450 million.
One of the things that I think it was a bit sketchy about Hellena's story is that apparently Kamiya can't speak English or his knowledge is limited. If she talked to him, he might have used a translator or google translate. And not to defend a big soulless and heartless corporation, but also Kamiya doesn't need to know how the VA association works in the Western, he might know about the Japanese side but how much he knows about the US and UK? Also Hellena calling out Jennifer Hale was so innelegant. If it wasn't Hale, it would have been anyone else. If there is a role and auditions, it would be filled. End of story.
The games industry is gonna counter "They wanted me to voice the main character in a game that they expect to make half a billion dollars in revenue for only 4 thousand." With "Nah, we offered her 15 thousand." The difference between 4k and 15k is irrelevant when the final sales figures for every AAA game are the entire point of the issue. Publishers are hoarding 99% of profits while devs, actors, testers and all the other people who do the actual work get paid slave wages. The actress in this particular case being a lying Terf doesn't change a thing.
And here's the thing, had she been truthful for all of that, we'd have supported her. But since she lied both by omission and just blatantly, now it's just soured ANY conversation.
@@chillhour6155 my dude, you fail to understand the underlying issue that VAs are underpaid for the value they bring. When the franchise has made 450 MILLION, she shouldn't be making less than 6 digits. She should have at least been paid 450k and that's .10% of the earnings of the whole franchise. She should have gotten royalties for it. Yes, 15k is a lot for the work when people work a whole year for 7.25. But again... Pay your workers what they are worth. And if she brought a gaming icon to life? She deserves more. Look at GTA4 and what Jim says about that VA.
@@austinfowler2707 It hasn't made 450 million by any stretch of the imagination. That's an insane pipe dream, you don't know what you're talking about.
The lady doth protest too much, methinks. She accomplished nothing but potentially make life harder for other voice actors. "Maybe our protagonist should just be silent and we can avoid all this bullshit," video game companies are now thinking.
$4,000 may have been better for a viral video/headline, but $15,000 isn't great either considering how much value is created with VO work. Love that people will now just wash their hands of the bigger issue because one small detail is off.
Its really hard to make people care because they don`t understand how contract work pay. I`ve seen plenty of people think that even 4000 was plenty, comparing it to hourly wage despite contract work often having massive gaps between work that have to be compensated for.
@@blackbloom8552 Why should they be paid more because they chose to do a job where they may not work consistently? How much sense does it make to say "This person should be being paid more than anyone else because they're not working!"? "Sure, those artists and developers are putting in hundreds and hundreds of hours into this game, but this person who shows up for 16 hours deserves MORE than they do!"
@@Kaylakaze Why are you trying so hard to pit them against each other? Why should the artists and developers not also be paid better, get residuals, etc?
i don't know. 750 -1k/hr for a niche poor selling game seems fine to me. If it was something like grand theft auto I would agree with you but for bayonetta (a game that sells on action not story)...not so sure.
The real victim in this whole story really was Jennifer Hale. She just accepted an acting job. She didn’t force the pay offered to Helena Taylor. The harassment and threats that Hale had to endure over something she had nothing to do with is just horrible.
I remember Steve Blum (the guy you hear in almost every video game and who also voiced Spike Spiegel) chiming in on the situation about Jennifer Hale on twitter and he made it clear that Hale is absolutely for fairer wages in video games. She was leading in the voice actor strike and has been very outspoken about voice actors getting the recognition they deserve. So that she would intentionally screw over Taylor made no sense to him and that he believed that she knew nothing about the situation. And I believe what he is saying is true too and she was unfairly targeted. But that's also another point striking against Taylor because she absolutely goaded people into harassing Hale. David Hayter was also screwed over for loosing his role as Snake and he was also mad about it and has refused to even play MSGV because of that. But he still wished good luck on Kiefer Sutherland and he didn't send any of his fans to harass him.
Steve was probably the person that knew it was all bs since not only only is he a legend in the industry he also worked closely with platinum in the past, even voicing the main character in a few games, so he knows how they work
Well Taylor did say she wished Hale the best, but the whole thing about her not wanting to let her sign merch as Bayo because she made that voice makes her look pretty shitty now.
People will look for excuses to have a go at Hale ever since she helped out Vic as a freak
@@VeranaXS And he also knows that VA work pays badly. See the strike. "Somehow" you didn't mention that bit.
@@wajmgirl What?
The VA pay conversation needed to happen, but hot damn, Hellena Taylor was the wrong person to have it with.
It should've been obvious from the start. She's not a professional VA. She's in theater (which would explain the theatrics as well.)
Yep. VA's are still underpaid, and this needs to change. Just because the person that tried to be the face of that movement is a liar, doesn't mean that the movement itself is a lie.
That's the problem with folks and their movements, they expect a perfect figure to be the face is silly.
@@StormsparkPegasus it makes sense that some who tried to take a broader movement, and make it about themself, turned out to not be entirely honest. This isn't the kind of movement that needs a face
@@BmoreAkuma The problem is. The movement is about VA pay. She *lied about the pay she was offered, substantially, enough that it changes the conversation*. It has nothing to do with her "not being perfect".
I really hate when good arguments about actual issues get so utterly poisoned by duplicitous asshats using it to push their own egos and agendas. Voice Actors deserve more and Taylor hasn't just poisoned the well, she's irradiated it.
Hard to say deserve really. It's like actors, they get paid based on what they bring in right? Did anyone care about or buy Bayonetta for the voice acting? It's hardly iconic is it.
The people who are building the game (engineers, programmers, artists etc) are probably the ones getting royally screwed all the time.
The offer that came out in this video offers her 1000/hour. Id say thats a fair compensation, dont you?
@@TheAlmightyAss Bayo's voice was quite iconic, but problem is the original VA just over-inflated the series' worth.
Bayo series has never been worth more than 200 million worth, much less 450 million worth.
Pretty much as you can see by all the contrarian bootlickers in the comments.
I have a simple question to ask of people like yourself, why do they deserve it? This issue is with Foreign Media is that VA is not required to watch/play it. Yes it may increase ones enjoyment of it, but that does not make it required as Subs will allow one to do so. Until you can give a concrete reason as to why it wont happen. In fact doing so will create less VA work as Companies may just decide to not do VA, thus making it even harder for new talent to find Jobs.
I am sure those like HollowedJes will claim I am on the side of the Corpos with this question, but its a big part of the discussion that people refuse to talk about. If you want them to spend more money on VA you have to be able to tell them how it will make them MORE money by doing so. Companies will not decrease Profit just to make life better for someone they dont care about, and dont delude yourself into thinking they do. Until we are willing to look at, and talk about, both sides nothing will change.
Taylor admitted on Twitter this morning/last night that she did, basically, lie by omission: she was originally offered $10,000. Then they offered to increase that to $15,000. She said no. They then offered her $4,000 for a cameo. She still said no, and that's the number she cited in her video.
She claimed she never demanded $250,000 (a number she herself cited there).
A voice over session is only 4 hours long. They wanted her to do 4-5 of them. Which is 16-20 hours.
She turned down $750 per hour.
SHE TURNED DOWN $750 PER HOUR WHILE THROWING JENNIFER HALE UNDER THE BUS!
15k isn't a living wage, tho. And her confirming she was offered 10k rather than 15k proves two things: she lied, but the folks at Bloomberg also lied.
@@pimpollito18 How did they lie? Did she show anything to actually support that and those numbers? She already lied from the getgo with the 4000 dollar figure, which she's now trying to do damage control for because it was a lie. 15,000 may not be a living wage for the entire year but like most have said based on the amount of work from her own admission she did for the first two games that's alot of money for very minimal work. Despite also depicting it as her profession most have pointed out her very limited va works.
@@pimpollito18 Or maybe, she lied again?
"15k isn't a living wage"... lol. It's not PGs fault, that Taylor had no offers since Bayonetta 2.
@@pimpollito18 if she had negotiated for royalties instead of trying to push for a six-figure sum then it would have actually been a livable wage. I'm not saying that excuses the terrible Behavior towards voice actors in general, but let's not pretend that this was anything but Helena Taylor being greedy as fuck and then lying about it to get back at the company when they moved on without her.
It’s quite tragic that we all wanted the original voice of bayonetta to return and be paid properly but to find out she lied to all of us and we discovered that she supports bigotry, it’s as if there’s no winner out of this whole circumstance.
Idk, I think Platinum wins, whether we like it or not. They used union vas, paid more than was "expected" (whether that's a good pay or not in the grand scheme of things), and now Bayo3 preorders have only gone up.
Nintendo wins as this was all just free publicity
@@FirlowXD I mean, the series didn't win. It's now been smeared with controversy, and even the gains made by the company itself are debatable.
@@elegantoddity8609 It's not smeared lol, Since its now been proven she lied the controversy will just boost sales
@@elegantoddity8609 if anything the original VA is smeared, her credibility is questionable.
The one thing I hope that comes from this is the stories from other Voice Actors are kept in relevance and is heard.
Like seriously the fact that Revali's voice actor from Breath of the Wild has gotten more money from residules for voicing 2 lines in the Detective Pikachu movie than his entire contribution to the Zelda series is fucking crazy.
To be honest, BOTW has extremely limited voice acting, It could all be done in a single session for the champions
Voice actors don't sell games, and are more expensive than movies
There was more voice acting in the Hyrule Warriors games than the entirety of BoTW
@@jesusramirezromo2037 Worth mentioning Sean Chiplock voiced 3 characters in BotW. He got paid way more for 2 offscreen lines in DP. He got paid more for his work on Freedom Planet ffs!
And sure, VAs don't sell games, but can you honestly say MGS would be the same without David Hayter? Or TLoU without Ashley Johnson and Troy Baker?
@@jesusramirezromo2037 No they solidified characters into people's mind, making it a much better experience that lingers longer then the gameplay. Ask why Ledger is stated to be the best live action Joker, not the best Joker for all time? 🤔
@@endlessmisery15 Yes, they would be the same
Voice actors don't have the characters modeled after them, so it makes no difference
Hellena now wants to “put the whole bloody franchise behind her”.
Sure you do Hellena… sure you do…
After that stunt, it'll be more like "the whole industry".
@@Bloodfencer1990 Well, here's hoping, since regardless of one's opinion on her and her behaviour, she needs to eat and keep the lights on same as everyone, but after the damage she's done to her public reputation with this situation, I wouldn't neccessarily bet on it.
That’s an interesting way of saying THE DORR HAS LAUNCHED YOU OFF FARTHER THAN *JUBILEUS*, huh?
Put an iceberg on that shiner and learn the lesson, love. Went All In… Died at the River. Better luck next time, and don’t bluff!
@@Bloodfencer1990
YOLO!
- Helena Taylor
@@jondoe7036 I mean if worse comes to worst, I don't think anything's really stopping her from getting a regular job. She wouldn't even be the worst person to ever manage a McDonalds.
This is a lesson to everyone. Corporations may be dirty liars, but that doesn't mean individuals can't be them too.
If people had used a little logic from the start, they wouldn’t have to walk back so many bad takes.
Of course she lied. She had nothing to lose, even before this fiasco, she’d lost her only source of income and made a bad name for herself with her weird beliefs she enjoyed sharing online.
The fact that people supported someone like this to begin with just shows how desperate the internet is to hate successful studios and corporations.
@@brandonkruse6412 "The fact that people supported someone like this to begin with just shows how desperate the internet is to hate successful studios and corporations."
It reflects more the fact that game studios and corporations do all kinds of evil stuff on a regular basis. It's very easy to accept that they do that because it is what they routinely do.
@@CondemnedGuy Of course, but that doesn’t mean you should lie and manipulate everyone just because *some* corporations treat their employees unfairly.
@@makeitthrough_ What the fuck are you even saying? Are you speaking english?
EW WHAT THAT IS NOT THE LESSON WE ALREADY KNEW THAT.
It was pretty clear from the start that Helena wasn't speaking out for voice actors in general, but rather for herself, made apparent by claiming Bayonetta is hers alone and throwing Jennifer Hale under the bus.
It was pretty clear from how she specifically targeted Bayonetta instead of asking people to take a stand against the wider industry. It was also pretty clear from how she was trying to kill the entire Bayonetta franchise... Someone almost no one ever mentions is that Taylor *didn't* just asked people to boycott Bayonetta 3, she also suggested people boycott any hypotehtical future Bayonetta-related game. (Her specific example was if they made a future game, such as a spin-off starring Jeanne... So in her eyes it didn't even matter if the game involved the character Bayonetta... *That* is deliberately trying to kill an entire franchise.)
I kind of expected something like this when she said "I own Bayonetta's voice and the new voice actress can't sign merch as Bayonetta"
That looks so much worse knowing she lied now and caused this whole situation.. (not saying I don't agree the pay was low for the impact of the game but still, lying....)
@@coops9597 This will definitely be used as ammo against other voice actors that want an extra pay raise so that they can make rent
@@grimneeldrakia7173 all we can hope for now is that the attention generates good talk about VA pay/royalties :(
I cant wait for the sea of signed merch with Hales name on thats gonna get tweeted at her
@@coops9597 Yeah these multimillion dollar franchises need to pay royalties. Games like The Last Of Us are pretty much MADE by the voice acting and storytelling.
The cause is just, but the damage Hellena Taylor has dealt to it with this omission/lie is immense.
Yeah how horrible. Voice actors on average get paid a measly $250/h how horrible truly.
@@Bourikii2992 could you try saying that like they DONT work a 9 to 5 and make that money all day every day? Because it REALLY sounds like you think they make that money all day, and just have voice rolls lined up for every work day like you flipping burgers.
@@asksalottle220 That's literally what average means. That's the standard going rate for voice work in the industry.
Literally even if they worked 1 day a month 8 hours for that day they'd make what I make in a whole year. 12 shifts to make 15 dollars an hour for the whole year.
I'll trade them any day of the week lmao.
@@Bourikii2992 imagine getting 12 rolls a Year, you're delusional dude.
I don't think so. One person lying doesn't change the truth and the truth exists without Hellena's statement.
So Kamiya fought to get her a 50% pay raise to his superiors and then got blasted for it on Twitter cause she lied…so yeah I get why he exploded lol.
An in process soiled th entire cause by being a bad actor and backstabbing all the support she got. And she lied when h really dint have to, knowing that it caused the conversation, ... I know she is a terf and integrity is , but she coulsnt be any worse. Or class traitor.
This. Poor Kamiya. :(
He's still a xenophobic loser who deserves to get clowned on for hating anyone who doesn't speak Japanese.
I find it amazing people are still trying to portray him as a villain in this situation just for blocking people who were basically harassing him. He even offered her a paid session just to do a cameo after she rejected the final offer.
@@Purpletrident Him blocking people was part of the wonderful 101 kickstarter. I feel like everyone not understanding Kamiya’s Twitter persona just highlights how niche Platinum actually is lol.
The ironic part is is that Taylor could have said the amount offered and people would have still been pissed. Instead she chose to lie and publicly call out Hale. She sullied her reputation (like she cares) and made it infinitely more difficult for V.A.s to get better treatment and pay.
Jennifer Hale is an outspoken Leftist and anti-whlte and anti-Chrlstlan, so it really bothered me when Helena called her out. And I wanted to support Helena so much at first.... but I have a feeling that Helena is a Christian and/or conservative.... and that is unexcusable in today's day and age....
Who would be pissed about VA earning 15k for 20 hours of work? That's more than 99% of the worlds monthly income.
@@DrSleazoid
Yeah seriously. If she had said upfront she rejected a $15k offer, nobody would care. That's why she lied: she knew she'd have less sympathy unless she pretended she was only offered $4k
I wasn't on her side even back when the implication was $4000 over 16 hours. That's still $250/h.
One of the few VAs who I believe is worth that much (in terms of effort that's not Japanese) is Barbara Goodson. Not saying there isn't more, but I wanted to give a shout-out to the razor gargler herself.
@@DrSleazoid Because you have a limited amount of options ? You won't get 5 of these offers per year because otherwise it would be strange if different charakters have the same voice. You have maybe 2 bigger jobs per year and some small ones where you earn nothing.
The craziest thing about this story is the Voice actors DO have a union, and yet somehow are still getting screwed.
when your union is useless it's almost like not having one.
They would have been screwed even worse without one.
Look at the NFL players union. Absolutely useless.
@@molol44 This is the only place I've seen to express this. I think coaches could very likely be completely removed from any professional sport and the players could manage their own development. The coach basically exists to give players steroids.
it's because they're a weak union.
It really is a shame how this all played out. This is going to make people more skeptical of the next time a story like this blows up, but to be fair a lot of people would also be looking for any reason not to side with the worker anyways, even in a situation that's completely cut and dry
me, from the get go of this situation, it seems fishy... i will happily analyse the next one independently, pretty sure the next time something like this happens, it will be better. as for asking residual for VA work... lets be real here, anyone working on the game need residual, we are talking 100 of people +, % wise, everyone will end up with so low a residual im not sure it would be worth it to have less paid salary in advance to gain residual.
Yes, and if taylor had simply been honest we could have had the conversation WITHOUT the distraction. $15k might sound like a lot but its still pretty insultingly low when you consider the MILLIONS a game like bayonetta makes. I can only imagine that taylor lied because she wanted to make herself sound more sympathetic instead of standing by how she actually felt. She not only hurt her own career but she hurt every other voice actor
It's a shame truth prevailed over a lie? No.
@@MonteCreations Completely agree.
@@Tw1s7 I feel like you're responding to a post that doesn't exist
Making a TERF the face of an important movement always backfires. I was unsurprised to find that she lied about the offer, its a shame she has now hurt the case for fair pay in the industry:(
Mmhmm
Both sides lacked context, she did not lie about her pay. Also I do not see you saying Platinum lied by not giving us a description of what a session entails or they that they like to keep it to a minimum then.
She may not be a great person but do not allow feelings to cloud facts.
@@gHGhej ?? Get to the point or leave.
@@starchilde8698Maybe shut up and let the grown up talk?
My point baby, is that she did not lie, yes it lacked context but did not say false statements. Platinum is also withholding context. The feeling of if she is a good person or not, should not cloud the facts she stated. Even Platinum did not say she was false, just our understanding was.
Happy now?
@@gHGhej Lying by omission is still lying. She essentially said "I was offered 4k... plus another 11k or so" except she just cut out the last part. It's dishonest and it's purposefully twisting the narrative to her side.
A session is also at most a day. People are very hung up on how this whole "session" thing works and what her hourly rate would be, when I can safely say as someone who works in the same kind of gig economy and have done many studio sessions, how long the session itself actually is isn't really all that relevant because it's all you'll be doing that day anyway, and what you deliver on those sessions are the result of many prior hours of practicing and rehearsing that is meant to be covered as part of the very high "per hour" rate.
Regardless, she's still being paid extra than what her union negotiates so who she should be negotiating for higher pay from is her union, basically, not twitter.
Unfortunately, the way things played out in this specific instance will end up derailing the overall conversation. It got lots of attention and turned out to be misleading at best. Now, when it comes up elsewhere, it will be easy to point to this and tune out.
Honeslty, that's all anyone ever wants on the internet anymore.
Just tuning out things that matter.
It's sickening
@@SLKibara it's less people individually and more how the environment of social media and it's algorithms are evil
Voice actors went on strike for 300 days in 2016 over residuals, and they lost. Anyone pretending to care is a liar. Fake outrage doesn't work when the thing you are pretending to be upset about is also fake.
@@miscsloan8834 you having to mention when and how they striked is kind of the problem most people not knowing in the first place sort of stops them from being hypocritical
People need to bring receipts and we have to get better at not taking everything at someone's word, on either side.
Also it'd be REAL cool if we could stop harassing the third party involved in the situation. Or pretty much anyone? I'm good with not harassing MOST people and think that is an idea that should spread, hot take IK.
You know, I didn't think "I'm Jim fucking Sterling son" could be beat, but "I'm James Step-on-me Sterling" is truly the greatest naming phrase you've had. Well done Steph, well done. Also thanks Laura for the subtitles, these videos have one of the best subtitles I've seen and other youtubers should take note that this is how they're done.
ok but who is the ♂ with mental issues dressing like a ♀in the video?
That "creamy" YTP bit near the end was extremely underrated, props to the editor!
I'm depressingly old enough to remember that advert on TV, back before they renamed Jif to Cif.
Heartbreaking: the worst person you know still deserves fair compensation for their labor.
Idk, i feel like the only things terfs deserve is a swift kick to the solar plexus.
And that's exactly what she was getting
Right? Even TERFs deserve to eat and have a house over their heads.
@@Alex-gx3mq nah
@@Alex-gx3mq she deserves more than what she asked for, bigot or no
The bitter irony that Helena Taylor is transphobic when it feels like Bayonetta herself as a character would be incredibly supportive of trans rights.
I wouldn't be surprised if she was trans XD
Wait a minute, Helena Taylor dislikes Trans people?
@@kendonl.taylor5111 she's a terf
@@kendonl.taylor5111 way to let everyone know you didn't watch the video
I listen to one podcast this weekend. They mentioned that she's had a history of racist and homophobic tweets years prior. I never knew that
I remember the conversation surrounding the original VOs for Silent Hill during the HD collection release, the controversy about pay and lack of residuals, their second class status, how they should have been paid more... This was litterally 10 years ago and the conversation has gone nowhere, it's simply now easier to harrass VOs online
I was thinking about this as well. I forget the details but I remember Troy Baker and McGlynn were at a convention or panel joking about Guy Cihi's demands for being paid for use of his voice in the remaster, because they were saying how it doesnt happen in the industry. Which is a bit shit considering it kind of should be. I think it was in the same video that they ripped into the original actors for their awkward performances.
Voice actors went on strike in 2015. It affected many different studios. I had a nice conversations with a voice actor director, Jack Fletcher, back in 2019. He basically told me it's better for the voice actor to get the money up front. They're not going to get residuals.
Hellena Taylor has years so fight unfair pay, but she chooses "now" and blame her successor for it is really low.
Guy Cihi is just like Taylor in that he outright lied about his contract for clout. Dude even lied to get the role; said he was out of work when he was a CEO. It was only him making a huge stink about it too.
Clearly the person who learned nothing from that is you.
@@LuigiaTV "I think they should be given residuals" doesn't mean actors get to lie and say they were promised them when they weren't. Troy was right to point that out.
Jennifer Hale is an international treasure. The voice of Femshep deserves only praise.
Let’s not forget she was freaking Samus Aran in the Metroid Prime trilogy. She’s a bonafide bad ass.
Also her character in Dragon Age Inquisition was pretty cool.
@@GaldirEonai Klem.
@@LdyVder I kept it vague so people'd go "wait, she was in DA:I? Who'd she...Oh!" :P.
Ashe overwatch my beloved
Didn't she say she was offered $4k for "the whole game"? That's not lying by omission, that's a just straight lie.
I think that was for the cameo, which would have been all she did for the whole game. So it's not technically a lie.
@@Ashannon888 I wouldn't call a cameo "the whole game". She didn't mention it was for a cameo at first. She made it seem like it was all she was offered for voicing Bayonetta. I'd definitely call that a lie.
@@Ashannon888 she did lie, go back to where she tweeted about it, she said she got offered 4k for the ENTIRE GAME which is a straight up lie
@@Ashannon888 It's just a lie lie. She's been very deceitful over this whole thing and nobody reasonable should still be giving her the benefit of the doubt.
This is going to make it even harder for voice actors now because all people need to do is look back to this drama.
Its sad, cause now when another VA who is wrongfully paid claims the same, no one in the general public will beileve her/him due to this incident, and that trully sucks
People just need to stop believing the first thing they hear. Idk how many times we gotta do this before people wise up and wait for the full story to come out.
Eh. Just bring up the broader issue. Anyone clinging to this story to ignore the broader issue is choosing to want to.
It's a good litmus test to root out who is interested in truth and who is interested in hurting innocent people for no reason.
This whole thing has just been one blunder after another. I was on Hellena's side when the news but the Bloomberg article has since changed that, as you rightly said, because Jason Schreier hardly misses when he takes a shot. Jennifer was caught in the crosshairs of this whole thing as a bystander. Something that bothers me still, is Hideki's response to all this with that vague tweet of his. The guy's team is currently facing harassment from a bunch of little shits harassing his team (Jennifer included. She may be freelance, but she contributed to the game's production and I'd consider that as part of the team.) and all he does is stick to that stupid persona he's made for himself on Twitter. What an absolute shitshow, good grief.
To be fair I kind of sympathize with him. How would you feel if you had a bunch of half cocked shitheads harassing you, your team, and your voice actors over someone who blatantly lied by omission? Helena Taylor has just pushed back the movement for fair and equal treatment for voice actors by a decade at least. If she had been up front about how much she was offered and then explained why that still wasn't enough for someone to live off of, then she wouldn't be getting nearly as much crap as she is now, nor would she be having her fans turning on her
@@magicman25103 I don't sympathise with him at all. This is a legitimate PR issue for Platinum; the least he can do is drop the alleged 'persona' and stop acting like a fucking asshole while it's ongoing. I wouldn't be surprised if it's hurt the company. Imagine being a grown man and sticking to your childish schtick while there's something going on that requires grown-up communication.
He could've at least stayed silent.
@@pandawithbooks I admit that I've never really been in the Twitter loop, so all I've ever known is that Hideki blocks people, and apparently that's just how he rolls. I try to keep off Twitter because I value my mental health. I DO remember hearing about the Bayonetta 2 tweets, and I thought those weren't bad because he wasn't being as vague about it. People were upset that Bayonetta 2 wasn't getting a multi-platform release, and he responded with basically "Tough luck. Nintendo made this happen. They asked for exclusivity, and we obliged."
I'm not trying to come across as blaming him for something he has every right to do, and I sure as hell would never condone harassing anyone. What I AM blaming him for is being vague about it, letting things stew, and keeping up a persona when frankly, there was no reason to keep it up when people were getting harassed. It'd be like if all of Stephanie's team here were all getting bad mouthed by association and all they respond with is "Yeesh, what a bunch of liars. So disappointed." Sure, they may be doing things behind the scenes to rectify the situation, but when you have a public image like Hideki does, the least you can do is be more direct to mitigate this sort of thing before it gets out of hand.
@@pandawithbooks Sorry, I don't know if this is aimed at me or not. But it seems like it could be, so...
I don't blame him for blocking legitimate harassment, but I DO blame him for not having the good sense to stay out of this and let the company sort it out.
Like I said, he could've just stayed silent and carried on. It was his choice to tweet about it and call attention to his behaviour.
All that did was draw more people to his account, and make things more complicated for Platinum. It's one of the dumbest things you can do and I have no problem stating that.
Sorry if I worded it too aggressively and for blaming the two of you. That was not my intention there.
Anyway, I only really use Twitter to follow and lurk around, and even that is mentally draining.
Regarding Kamiya, could he have been more direct about what had transpired? For sure, and I wish he was. Could he have just not posted and let things blow over? For sure, he should have shown some restraint and just waited things out.
However, maybe he had an NDA or something that didn't allow him to talk further about the VA debacle. I think it might have been Schreier that said that he didn't get the salary info from PlatinumGames (likely due to NDAs), and maybe that's the reason why Kamiya could really only be vague about what had transpired between PG and Hellena.
And let's be honest here: Kamiya's not a fluent English speaker. He started his Twitter account partly to practice his English. His Tweet "BEWARE MY RULES" may come across as aggressive, but he's basically telling people that if they Tweet at him in English, he'll block them (again, stemming from the Bayo2 abuse). Again, that's something most people wouldn't really know about unless they've been following him before 2014 (Bayo 2 came out September 2014).
As an aside, what's funny is that as part of The Wonderful 101 Kickstarter, you can get Kamiya to block you on Twitter, so this persona of his is something that even PlatinumGames leans on lmao.
Anyway, you're both good people in my eyes.
Repeat with me.
We have trials for a reason.
We have trials for a reason.
We have trials for a reason.
If justice were a matter of who cryed more convincingly, like it seems on the internet, I assure you life would be much, MUCH, worse.
Also, it's not obvious that it's always the poorer of the 2 who is the abused.
Good and bad people are not identifieable on sight, unfortunately.
So next time someone shouts to you "I'm the victim", instead of rushing to battle, stop and just say "Yes, probably, I don't know. I'll wait for what the authorities have to say on the matter after they gather informations and/or I'll try to have a more rounded understanding on the matter myself".
The "I'M WITH YOU PURELY BECAUSE YOU LOOK LIKE THE VICTIM, LET'S CRUSH SOME PEOPLE TOGETHER!" strategy has never brought anything good and it's not a future evolution of the current justice system as some ignorant fool seems to believe.
It was the starting point.
Like...the prehistoric "unga bunga me like banana" starting point.
A system can't be more unjust than that.
Anyway.
I liked the old Bayonetta voice.
But if the voice actress has to lie and damage real breathing people just for greed, using the stupidity of the internet mob against themselves, I guess I can stand Platinum's decision of never having to deal with her again.
I can get used to the new voice, anyway.
I'm an adult
Sad... she is very very talented as a voice actor. I think the worst part is that she has done the same thing before. When she was doing VA for Hellsing Ultimate, she complained that she was underpaid. The union which was in countered her claim, saying that her talent fee was more than another VA voicing 4 characters in the same anime lol. After that she wasn't doing any form of Anime voice work lol. And NOW she hasn't learn a thing? THIS WOMAN!
Theres a rumor that shes just completely blacklisted from voice acting (maybe acting as a whole) and this fact is not helping her case
I wouldn't say she's very very talented. Otherwise she would be in more games or shows
@@makeitthrough_ Yup! There's also a theory floating around that she's RICH. And this sort makes sense in some cases. 1.) She scoffs at the 4,000 heck 15000 dollar salary. 2.) Doesn't seem to be consistently workind despite being talented 3.) Complaints of being POOR and then rejects the idea of doing cameos. 4.) Donates a 100% of her earning on comic con convention. I think this issues is of her feeling HURT and this her lashing it out! 5.) Doesn't mind BURNING bridges! For someone who claims to be poor and destitute she seems to not be bother at losing money, losing connection and being banned from voice acting.
She was in Hellsing Ultimate? Who was she, cause I can't find her in the cast listings?
Have you got a source for that at all?
Honestly the fact that it was believable that Helena was actually paid so little for the entirety of a main character role says far more about the games industry and its treatment of creators than it does about the people who believed it.
Programmers, testers, artists and many other people in the video game industry make far less than $1000/hour VA artists (which are fundamentally inessential, as many games without any or with little voicing are massive hits) make. Especially outside of the US. $15k she could've made would be year worth of salary for an Eastern European programmer or an artist in an Asian outsourcing company.
Everyone should be paid better, not just Helena, who clearly thinks she made those imaginary $450 million herself.
"Main character role" consists of being stuck in a booth for 16 hours total, reading lines written by someone else while being directed by someone else.
No it does not because her bullshit made it harder for VA everywhere. Let's not forget what caused this discussion and how it turned out.
Taylor's comments were so unbelievable that she could've said Platinum hung her upside down from a helicopter over the Grand Canyon, and despite zero photographic or video evidence of this event ever occurring, just as many people would've believed her. Because people hate Platinum.
Same claims. Same "controversy" same everything, except different target company (Except EA, Ubi, ABK) and people would not have been so quick to judge. Naughty Dog, these same neckbeards would've defended no matter what.
im sure any of the creators would love to have 15k for a weeks work
@@coreym8145 Lol it's very shortsighted to act that way if it's literally all you're being given for a million dollar role. It's like asking Robert Downey Jr. to take $15k for a 1-week shoot of Iron Man and then pocketing all the money you earn off him. That's not how it works.
This entire situation sucks something fierce. The whole debate over voice actors getting fair wages has been trashed by Taylor lying, Kamiya didn't help by being a colossal Kamiya about it and blocking everyone with a pulse, imbeciles with no life went and harassed Hale for existing (let's be fair they don't give a shit about the drama they likely just want excuses to harass women for existing) and everyone came out worse off for it. It's just, god can the game industry and community just fucking NOT for five minutes?
Kamiya had to endure tons of racist vitriol from westerners, he can block whoever he wants
touch grass, you were ready to boycott just a week ago lol
Frankly I wasn't super interested in the game to begin with. Admittedly it was mostly because I missed Bayo 1 & 2, but it wasn't something I was super hyped over.
But, yeah, to be fair I was ready to believe what was said. But is it so ridiculous to change one's mind when they find out they were lied to?
I will go and touch some grass tomorrow though, of that you have my word.
@@Mr._Sherwood Im actually your father and mother, you believe me because i said so right? The fact youre so obsessed with the games industry tells me you havent touched grass in a long while, and probably never will again
@@morgannyan2738 What's your problem? I'd much rather see someone who is willing to admit when they were wrong, and change their mind, than someone who stubbornly ignores facts and continues insisting that they're right. Go find some people who are still insisting Taylor got screwed, who are still flinging abuse at Platinum and Jennifer Hale, and give THEM some crap. Don't bother someone with the capacity to admit they were wrong.
just finished reading the vampire survivor bestiary. nailed it, the fact that milk magic now is cannon to survivor verse is positively enlightened
It reminds me of Kingdom of Loathing's "Pastamancy".
JSS and Phoenix’s banter is getting so heccin cute and funny
Thank God for you. I've had a jumbled version of the song from the intro stuck in my head since Primary School so was never able to find it again. You have provided closure on years of irritation
The nostalgia from through the dragons eye was tremendous, thank god for you
The bit where they got turned into puddles was terrifying as a child
Flashbacks to playing the game on the...BBC maybe? What a show!
Geordie Racer and Badger Girl were also good, but Through The Dragon's Eye was next-level. It was so ridiculously cheaply made, but still ridiculously gripping for an educational kids show.
@@chrisball3778 Don't forget the legend that was Dark Towers. All most of us at school took away from that was "Tracy Was A Loner."
Someone should edit Gorwen's dialogue into footage of Andre interactions from Dark Souls 1. Same actor and general tone of voice, so it would take a while for folks to notice what exactly was... off.
Hellena: im a team player
also hellena: *lies about how much she was paid and tells people to boycott this game that her co workers worked hard on*
Oh yeah, actually had a blast reading the VS descriptions, you expanded nicely on the already absurd mood in the game with some neat "deeper" lore.
I gotta say, Steph looks so much happier and healthier since coming out, good for them
I purchased Vampire Survivors primarily because I learned you were writing for it Steph. Fantastic game, and I'm glad you're a part of it.
I just love how nuanced your take is, Sterling. Some of my friends have unfortunately taken to defending the idea that it's okay for VAs to be paid less if they're working for Japanese studios because "it's their culture to pay VAs less."
Except they treat Japanese VAs like movie stars so they often get paid ridiculous sums of money, so saying it's in their culture is just flat out wrong.
@@gwen9939 Agreed but people will make up whatever bullshit they can to justify their own position
Whut. Paying people too little is ok if its culturally ok? That is a weird argument
@@gwen9939 Only the A Listers get paid a fuck ton. B listers get paid ok amount I believe, everyone else is...an uphill battle. But yeah regardless, VA's should be paid a lot more than what they are now industry/internationally wide.
@@klisterklister2367 Yeah but people will defend anything if Japan does it specifically. Including having sex with 12-year-olds because it's "legal" there even though it's not. It's why Japanese media & society are in the shitter. Because Japanese citizens & employees won't criticize rich people or media & the west won't criticize Japan out of some bullshit sense of "respect" that doesn't involve respecting any of the people who actually have to live in that shitty country.
James Steph has to be the most consistent games journalist out there. Very well made video 👏
It's easier to be consistent when you don't go all-in crazy initially and then have to walk it back. A lot of games "journalists" are overly reactionary idiots.
But that’s exactly what he did. Going all out against the evil evil companies and immediately siding with Taylor, only to find out a week later, that Taylor might have lied her ass off and at the very least realizing that we don’t actually know what happened. The video last week is the definition of reactionary. It was Schreier, as always, who did the actual leg work and therefore remains the only legit journalist in the business. And now it’s like, doesn’t matter, I was still right. Believed the wrong person, judged a situation after hearing a tweet from someone who was obviously a bit too much in love with themselves and thinking, Yep, I know where that story goes, no need to talk to people, get another voice, listen the other parties involved. No, I know everything, I make a video about it and even when it turns out I got it wrong, I’m still right.
@@sebastianalhares "a person said a believable thing so i believed it, and when offered further information i also published that added information" --- this is not the gotcha you'll spend paragraphs insisting it is, chief.
you'll look less dumb if you just take that trash down now before you get dogpiled.
don't say i didn't warn you.
@@sebastianalhares I mean the companies are evil tho.
@@thevioletbee5879 fair point
I just wanted to say that I appreciate that you’re centering the larger issue as opposed to taking a more myopic view. From personal experience working as a composer and audio engineer, I agree with everything you said about compensation for voice actors - and that I can still fully support that while also having experienced a voice actor harm our mutual boss on the project by lying about the working conditions. It’s frustrating to see things like that happen and yet it also doesn’t change the larger issues at all.
As a side note, having come back from the ER yesterday for what turned out to be ulcer pain, I just wanted to say thank you for your content as watching this has helped distract me from some physical discomfort today. Please keep making these videos and being yourself.
I cant believe people thought you weren't going to update this lol
A. you are a good journalist and B. this story is just nuts.
Honestly it's so refreshing to see the dynamic between you and Phoenix and the rest of the staff you work with. God bless all of you, you're so damn happy and it makes ME happy.
Well this situation sucks even more now! Voice actors still deserve way better than they get
This is why you never jump the gun and start shitting on people. Always wait for the facts.
Always wait for the full story, also thank god for Jim
Yeah when I first heard her video I felt something wasn't right when she told people to boycott the game.
@@ladynikkie there was just a lot of bizarre details that didn't make sense, like the fact that Hale definitely wouldn't have been a cheaper alternative. I'm glad the information came out sooner rather than later.
@@ladynikkie She also threw Hale under the bus, a fellow union member. When she lashed out like that I got bad vibes from her.
You know what's weird about all this?
I haven't heard a peep about how the people who make coding and visuals get little in terms of residuals or payment.
If their not the lead , main , or director who hogs all the credit like Sega and Nintendo.
It's all just semantics and lip service,no one making vids on this really gives a shit,they say how VA's are underapreciated and underpaid,when it reality they are overpaid compared to their actual contribution to the end result,they ''work'' for a few days or weeks and demand even more money AND royalties ,when the actual people creating something from scratch are already paid several times less and work for months if not years.
I believed in Hellena Taylor thinking this was about the voice actor pay problems.
Now it's just about her lying and she lied and it's just freaking depressing hearing people say voice acting isn't important in video games.
I hate life.
For every snake in the grass there's dozens of good people to spotlight and advocate for. Keep your chin up, the only way out is with each other.
It is not. Plenty of games that have changed voice actors and no-one cares and it does not affect sales.
game can literally have no VA how is that important?
@@PlayThenSay This. The VA union tried to get residuals and backed off once they realized how replaceable they are. People play games for the gameplay and story. Even the music and graphics are more important than the VA, and I'm fine w/ reading text. VAs have a tremendously inflated ego and want to make far more money than the people actually making the games.
It's worse than that though.
She threw Jennifer Hale under the bus and Hale got a lot of hate for taking the role.
I really feel bad... you keep bleeding subs and for what? for being freaking awesome really, you get steped on (as you said) and keep getting up stonger or weaker IDK but always up, that I admire. Keep fighting the good one stef
Some people just can't tolerate wrongthink.
good job, hellena for potentially single handedly setting back progress on a real issue in the industry by about 5 years if not more
well done. i hope it was worth it for you
To say it's been set back 5 years is hyperbole and factually untrue.
@@ooodatsgottahurt1625 voice actor pay especially for video games isn't exactly a hot issue, even in the 24/7 social media news cycle it's pretty likely we're not going to see another mainstream chance to talk about it for at least a year even assuming the inflated rate of once a year this situation very much muddles the water more than four cut and dry situations fighting uphill against general capitalist propaganda
@@ooodatsgottahurt1625 to put it simple, this stuff only reaches the news if someone's being extremely extremely unreasonable in the eyes of the public, corporations get away with a lot more shit before crossing over that line in the average person's eyes
Was there any progress to set back though?
If anything she just made things worse: if fourteen years ago Voice actors were greedy, now they're liars and bigots too...
Only if you define it that way. You have a voice - organize and you will have many voices backing you up. Positive changes don't come without consistent pressure.
I ended up cancelling my pre-order. Not because of the boycott, but because the behaviour of Taylor and Kamiya has put such a bad taste in my mouth, I just don't want to play it. On another note, if you look at Taylor's credits on imdb, she hasn't done anything except voice Bayo since 2012, yet she argues she thought she was going to be on the street as she didn't earn a living wage. Wouldn't she be trying to get voice work in the 10 years she's done crap-all? I think her ego has a lot to do with it. I'M Bayonetta and as such the roles need to come to ME. Whereas VAs like Jennifer Hale, Troy Baker, Christina Vee etc all jumped on their characters' rise in popularity and sought out more work.
This is my opinion, I'm probably completely wrong but that's how I feel about the whole situation.
Damn as a lower level VA $4k a session sounds amazing. I'm currently offering to do Bugsnax voices for $50 total if there's ever a sequel
I'm loving the pre monologue banter between you two lately.
.... wrong drama you are focusing on
Good to see the creepy retro adverts back, this one was extra creamy
I won't lie, I was waiting for a "skip ads" button to show until halfway through it I realized it was part of the video.
Helena Taylor is the Jussie Smollett of the VA industry.
In Hellena's statement at 5:10 in the video, she writes that Hideki Kamiya offered her "...an extra 5,0000! [this is presumably a typo for 5,000]". But doesn't Japanese separate large numbers every four digits, rather than every three digits like English and other Western languages? Maybe Mr. Kamiya was indeed offering 50,000 and simply forgot to move the comma. IDK.
Absolutely floored by all the people being *incredibly smug* about "not forming an opinion and waiting for the facts" as though anyone would've reasonably expected someone willing to break NDA and destroy any future in the industry for a _lie_
Despicable behavior on Helena's part, absolutely disgusted.
"I don't want her to be the topic next Monday"
Meanwhile, she suggested that her fans donate to... an anti-choice billboard company. Yikes.
The escalation is simply too fast for a weekly format of the show.
Called it.
In these very comments, I said it was suspicious that Taylor never said how much time the $4K was for or how much she asked for. Then info comes out that fits perfectly into the gaps in her story and people in these very comments said "oh, those people are lying," even after Taylor tried to get off the bus by saying she wanted to put it all behind her (after calling for a boycott, hardly a way to put it all behind you). I told them they were being manipulated, and was called various things.
Critical thinking is good, people!
Okay but that Dr. A. Nonymoussources really got me. Almost spit out my morning coffee.
Unless I misremembered, I’m surprised that even after questioning Helena Taylor’s character you still didn’t mention how she effectively launched the almost literal Witch Hunt on her replacement, as described in this update, with comments she made in her original call for boycott.
I suppose you may have deemed that too much fuel to the fire against Helena?
Keep in mind Hellena Taylor is partially responsible for the harassment of the new actor. She said some really scummy shit about her and how she "doesn't deserve to be Bayonetta." So yeah, it's wrong and all but this wasn't sparked by The Gamers™.
Oh boy. When news broke out about the offer being "multiple sessions of 3-4k" I knew it still isn't enough for the THIRD installment of a HIGHLY SUCCESSFUL franchise, yet people would latch on to that. I knew what would happen on Monday. And here we are.
I'm assuming that you left out Kamiya from this video because you know that some of your followers will harass him? It's very telling that you left him in the previous video for no reason other than some weird "I think he's being rude and not helping the situation" nonsense. Your video contributed to his harassment full stop. You called him a twat and basically sicced your fanbase (the stupid part of it) on Kamiya's personal twitter account. This video is direct evidence that you do understand that your platform is able to indirectly (or directly) lead to the harassment of others.
At least cut out the part with Kamiya in the previous video FFS. He's being flooded with racism day after day because of this mess.
Edit: I just wanted to add one more thing. I am actually a fan of Sterling. I have been for years (and I still am despite this). It's just that, I expect stupid youtube drama channels to screw stuff like this up but I expect more from someone who has a long background of games journalism and critique than "just another youtuber that has spread misinformation that leads to a bunch of people being harassed." It's just making me sad to see SO MANY people, people that I respected, do this and not own up to the mistake.
Been a while since the "algorythm" brought me your videos. Ive been out of the Jimquisition loop fer a minute. Time to binge!
Taylor categorising $1000 an hour as as not being "a dignified living wage" is deeply offensive.
This is what irks me the most about this entire thing. There are people living on a lot, a lot less.
For those who are apparently having trouble with this, voice actors are not salaried workers. They are hired by contract and given a lump sum for each session. Once that work is done, they have no income for the rest of the year without further employment.
Yes, if you were getting $200/h guaranteed salary at your office job or whatever where you're guaranteed a check every month or so that would be amazing pay. Voice actors don't have this luxury of a consistent paycheck. That is why royalties are a thing that they should have since it helps with paying the bills in between their work.
Or you know, they have more time to get other work.
@@Groudon0199 I did mention this and I agree. (I also think the salaried workers should be getting more compensation for their labor as well but evidently that's not a conversation corporations are willing to have)
It sickens and saddens me that the internet devolved what *should* be a greater discussion about fair wages for voice actors, down to childish bickering about Hellena Taylor.
Exactly.
But that is easier to believe in than to actually do anything useful.
because she lied. VAs getting more money would be great, but she asked for a boycott and doing that after lying, its pretty shocking
@@SLKibara And thats how the conservatives keep their strength so high even in a somewhat progressive era in history, besides pre-existing integrated support for the monstrous ideology...
People need to stop being so easily fooled by conservatives, I don't shame people who get tricked of course, we're all suckers sometimes, but still, im tired of seeing conservatives hold society back, JUST when we're FINALLY starting to improve and see wider societal acceptance of marginalized groups too no less! Urgh!
Welcome to the modern internet in a nutshell.
I agree, but blame for this is solely on Taylor. Making it all about her
Honestly, this video shows why Stephanie is such a great reporter and commentary on the industry, not only does she make the point that should be made, but she's willing to acknowledge the bad actors on the correct side of the issues as well.
Even with the true wage, it's still a problem that needs to be addressed. Ad hominims as aside, it's about the message, not the messenger.
Thank you Stephanie for another fantastic video.
Thanks for the update on your writing in Vampire Survivors, I was actually wondering about it today and wouldn't likely have taken to Twitter to learn the truth.
When the other shoe dropped last week I was wondering if you would put out an update video on this subject. It really is a shame that this particular instance the gaming company seems to have acted reasonably, but I am still glad you have used this to talk at length about voice acting compensation and the issues that the gaming industry has with this subject. I am also glad you are willing to say "Hey, more facts have come to light. Here is what we got wrong, here is what we got right, and for fuck's sake stop harassing people!"
Now all I want to do is watch Through The Dragon’s Eye again. I feel very old.
Jennifer Hale is an amazingly talented voice actor and I'm sure she'll do a fine job of Bayonetta. A pity it's come to this but there's still the potential for a great game.
Was not expecting “Through the Dragons Eye”. Last time I saw that it was being played on a TV, from a VHS tape, all precariously balanced on the school TV trolley
always feels like the place where it belongs ngl
this points to extremely lazy journalism by Jim Sterling I am afraid. Regurgitating a popular trending news item without due diligence...
All efforts to improve conditions for VA are taken a step back because of this one. What a clusterfudge.
"Lord fuckin' knows I don't want next Monday to be about this either."
This aged well.
Should be called Jim transition 🤣
It just such a fucking mess.
Not only does it go towards invalidating hundreds, if not thousands, of VAs struggling to get fair pay, this particular actor basically got behind the (hate to use this term) "fanboy" movement to harass another actor who's crime was simply to accept a job.
Happy for the followup, even if the drama is annoying. It seemed weird to me when most people just blindly believed Taylor's claims even before we knew anything more. That's another lesson from all this, besides the discussion about VA payment. A claim without evidence is not to be taken as full truth, and Taylor either seems very confused or seemingly more likely a terrible person (or obviously some of both). Also it seems weird that the whole drama instead increased sales for the game, goes to show how people consume based on exposure and drama.
Even if the original story of getting paid 4000 Kamalas for one job was true:
- If I decided to boycott every single videogame that done something like this or worse, what would I play? What about Saudi Arabia beheading journalists and buying Nintendo stocks and entire companies like SNK? What about the chinese semi-slaves making our consoles?
- When comparing her salary to how much money they spent and how much it sells, it's a low salary, but when compared to most jobs, it's a big salary.
- Nope, Bayonetta is not a big franchise, without the money from Nintendo, it could have died with only one game, and PlatinumGames is not rich, they could have gone bankrupt.
- She is not a big star, someone that will make people buy the game only thanks to her.
Hellena's lying. She contradicted herself when the story came out by more than doubling the original offer (from 4k to 10k), that's not something honest people do when confronted with stuff like this. If she was telling the truth, she'd have said "yeah, I meant 4k per session, sorry for the misunderstanding, but 20k is still not much for a game series as popular as Bayonetta!"
Glad you mad a follow up after all that and corrected the course! Actors definitely deserves more and that story shed a bit of light to that thankfully, still too bad it was achieved by someone like that.. Also, regardless of what you think of kamiya, him and jennifer hale didn't deserve all that harassement
its a bad situation, i would like VAs to get more money for their work. I want everyone to get what they feel they earned. I love Taylors VA work on bayonetta, i just dont understand why she went about it this way. even if she said she was offered 15k im still sure the outrage would have happened, i dont think VAs should get millions for their work. But i would be pretty happy to hear one of my favourite characters VA got 50-100k for their work as a main character.
"I want everyone to get what they feel they earned." :/
I wonder why whoever actually makes the game (the developers) are being ignored. This earns more than an executive, do we raise awareness on the salary of the management?
(Sorry for the bad English, I use google translate.)
thing is, 15k is within union standards. It's above, actually, so if she wants better pay she needs to negotiate with her union, not be on twitter calling out Platinum games when they went above the normal asking price. That behavior is essentially trying to grift her way to a higher paycheck because she glanced the profits that the Bayonetta franchise had earned and got dollarsigns in her eyes, even though the first game is basically cult and the 2nd almost flopped.
As the industry grows that money needs to go to the people putting in the actual work, I agree, but if we're having this conversation around voice actors we should also have it for developers, artists, composers, writers, and so on. I know that VAs are somewhat unique in that they're always contract hire(composers and producers are as well unless it's massive studios that have their own fully functioning music department), but the monthly pay for the actual game developers can still be considered ridiculously low for the success that these game companies are receiving.
And now we're just complaining about capitalism again.
@@gwen9939 talking about one problem, doesn't make another problem disappear. Stop with that stupid reasoning.
Yes many of the workers working on billion dollar game franchises get absolutely not enough money. VAs are part of those workers.
Done. Happy?
@@Khazar321 Problem is if you compare voice acting to almost any other job in existent, video game voice actors are paid more by ridiculous margin even if you count the times that they're between jobs & being paid nothing. So what's the basis for them being underpaid?
People act like you're an evil capitalist if you question it but no one's explaining it & the numbers being discussed aren't supporting their argument. Unless most voice actors regularly go multiple consecutive months without a job or the numbers being discusses are wrong even from the people supporting higher pay, it doesn't make sense.
I dont know how you keep producing videos this high quality this often but God bless you for doing so.
Hi Jim, I haven't visited in a while but I'm a long time fan. Hope your well. Keep on trucking my friend.
I was just revisiting a bit of Podtoid recently, Willem Dafoe stuff is just pure comedy gold sir!
I'll be honest, fuck off with residuals for voice actors. You can't realistically give everyone residuals, so why should voice actors be the ones to get them? They sure as hell aren't the ones putting in the most time and effort into making the game, they're not even the ones putting in the most time giving life to the character they're voicing. Also, voice actors can then get money at conventions for their autograph, anyone else who worked on the game can't.
I don't mind arguing for them to get a good wage for their work, but this entire discussion seems to make them out to be so much more important than they actually are.
The tragedy is she didn't even have to lie 15grand is still not much for such a big iconic role
Yeah, it's so iconic, B2 sold 1.5 million copies.
@Sara Øverby It's not. People suddenly going "Bayonetta is huge" are fucking laughable. This series wouldn't even EXIST anymore if Nintendo didn't reanimated it cause it was failure sale wise. Ironically the 3rd one would finally be successful since it's a more known IP + released on a console people own.
@Sara Øverby Nope. Bayonetta 2 is also available on the Switch. It sold 1.5 million Wii U and Switch combined. This has nothing to do with WiiU's performance. It's a niche game in a niche genre, rated M. Original Bayonetta is on all platforms from PS3 to PC, and still hasn't shifted a ton of copies.
@@473weasel It hasn't. Taylor pulled that number out of thin air. It's mathematically impossible, even if all games were sold at $60.
@Sara Øverby "The fact is"...lol.
You have no idea what you're talking about: Yes, Bayonetta is an iconic Character, but "her" Games didn't sell well at all- just check the numbers, and no, the series didn't made $450 million.
One of the things that I think it was a bit sketchy about Hellena's story is that apparently Kamiya can't speak English or his knowledge is limited. If she talked to him, he might have used a translator or google translate. And not to defend a big soulless and heartless corporation, but also Kamiya doesn't need to know how the VA association works in the Western, he might know about the Japanese side but how much he knows about the US and UK?
Also Hellena calling out Jennifer Hale was so innelegant. If it wasn't Hale, it would have been anyone else. If there is a role and auditions, it would be filled. End of story.
I just wanna let Phoenix know that I appreciate them.
Thank you Steph and have a wonderfull day, dear 😊
The games industry is gonna counter "They wanted me to voice the main character in a game that they expect to make half a billion dollars in revenue for only 4 thousand." With "Nah, we offered her 15 thousand."
The difference between 4k and 15k is irrelevant when the final sales figures for every AAA game are the entire point of the issue. Publishers are hoarding 99% of profits while devs, actors, testers and all the other people who do the actual work get paid slave wages. The actress in this particular case being a lying Terf doesn't change a thing.
She admitted she was offered 15K for the part, but refused then confirmed that platinum offered 4k for a cameo.
And here's the thing, had she been truthful for all of that, we'd have supported her.
But since she lied both by omission and just blatantly, now it's just soured ANY conversation.
@@austinfowler2707 it was still alot of money, she got greedy
@@chillhour6155 my dude, you fail to understand the underlying issue that VAs are underpaid for the value they bring.
When the franchise has made 450 MILLION, she shouldn't be making less than 6 digits.
She should have at least been paid 450k and that's .10% of the earnings of the whole franchise. She should have gotten royalties for it.
Yes, 15k is a lot for the work when people work a whole year for 7.25. But again...
Pay your workers what they are worth. And if she brought a gaming icon to life? She deserves more.
Look at GTA4 and what Jim says about that VA.
@@austinfowler2707 It hasn't made 450 million by any stretch of the imagination. That's an insane pipe dream, you don't know what you're talking about.
@@FourCogs even if it only made 100 million, a voice actor deserves a decent portion
Through the Dragon's Eye reference AND Steph and Phee being adorable, this episode is starting off strong!
This is a lesson to content creators and people in the comments section, before jumping to conclusions wait for both sides of the story
"I don't want next Monday to be about this either."
And much to Stephanie's dismay, next Monday was about this.
The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
She accomplished nothing but potentially make life harder for other voice actors. "Maybe our protagonist should just be silent and we can avoid all this bullshit," video game companies are now thinking.
$4,000 may have been better for a viral video/headline, but $15,000 isn't great either considering how much value is created with VO work. Love that people will now just wash their hands of the bigger issue because one small detail is off.
Its really hard to make people care because they don`t understand how contract work pay. I`ve seen plenty of people think that even 4000 was plenty, comparing it to hourly wage despite contract work often having massive gaps between work that have to be compensated for.
Apparently $15 000 is well above average for a voice actor, so if anything she should be taking this with her union to have the average raised.
@@blackbloom8552 Why should they be paid more because they chose to do a job where they may not work consistently? How much sense does it make to say "This person should be being paid more than anyone else because they're not working!"?
"Sure, those artists and developers are putting in hundreds and hundreds of hours into this game, but this person who shows up for 16 hours deserves MORE than they do!"
@@Kaylakaze Why are you trying so hard to pit them against each other? Why should the artists and developers not also be paid better, get residuals, etc?
i don't know. 750 -1k/hr for a niche poor selling game seems fine to me. If it was something like grand theft auto I would agree with you but for bayonetta (a game that sells on action not story)...not so sure.