I was a bicycle mechanic in the 80s, I remember when Indexed shifting first hit and how I despised Shimano. We used to mix and match parts from all the suppliers, bullhorn bars with barcon shifters driving a campy derailleur over a suntour freewheel spun on a Bullseye or Mavic hub. It was the barnstorming days....
I'm still using a RSX group, the "cheap" version of the SIS, only one minor issue so far is that grease becomes solid in the right shifter and it needs to be cleaned every few years, else it would not shift correctly, at least in the winter... @rollinrat4850
In the late eighties, early nineties my first mechanic job was at Bargain Basement Bikes down by U of Arizona. We made all sorts of combos work. Shimano SIS was my first realization of engineered obsolescence. So when I built my dream bike , a Yeti Ultimate, I equipped it with the much prettier Suntour XC Pro.
Yeah, I remember that. In fact my road bike that I built in the early 80's still has a mis-mash of parts. Campy, Shimano, TTT, Mavic, and 6 other brands of components all on one bicycle. (custom frame).
Shimano and SRAM are just adding complication for marketing reasons because the dopes that buy their stuff are only interested in the latest trends and having the latest stuff, regardless of whether the latest stuff is actually any better that what went before. The single most appealing thing about a bicycle to me, is it's simplicity - which brings with it innate efficiency and durability. These properties are being eroded..
Yes, I’m a bike nerd but if you watched the video Russ put out for an overpriced bar end ratchet friction shifter …. just in case you are in need due to swapping out your drivetrain components like most do so less than changing tires…so there’s that. ✌️
I agree on the philosophy side of simplicity, and for that I have a single speed run of the mill parts on a steel frame and it's glorious and super enjoyable. But I also really really enjoy my road bike and my gravel / touring bike and I wouldn't want to give up indexed shifting on them. I've never personally worn out a brifter and that's good enough for me. I can get a 105, Ultegra or GRX hydro brifter for the price of Russ's friction shifter and while the friction shifter is super cool and while I'm happy that things like that are available I personally am not the customer for that...
I’ve been thinking for a while now that the newest tech bikes are just hard to fall in love with. Sure they may be light and aero and shifting is super fast but they are fragile, fussy and how can one fall for and respect the engineering of a machine or it’s components that may be “obsolete” in a few years with proprietary parts and no longer supported software? Also batteries!
@rollinrat4850and the problem is that he tried to bleed it himself. why waste your time and effort trying to do it yourself when you can just pay someone else to do it?
@@pbandjosh "I can get a 105, Ultegra or GRX hydro brifter for the price of Russ's friction shifter"... Have you actually tried? I built a GRX 810 setup and EACH shifter/brake was $300! Kinda wish I'd just gone with bar ends and Paul brakes TBH.
I just picked up Rivendell Roadini with downtube friction shifters this spring. Best bike I ever owned. Super comfortable, bombproof and looks like a work of art. I ride 10K miles per year, so comfort and reliability is more important to me than raw speed. It is very satisfying to feel the cable changing gear with your finger. It also seems quieter. Shimano indexed shifters can trim the front derailleur up to a point. But it still rubs a bit in some gear combinations. With friction shifters you can trim the front derailleur in any gear combination. Shimano road shifters have a tendency to chew up cables. Cable on friction shifter will last years. I really appreciate that there are still bike manufacturer's like Rivendell that produce simple bikes with friction shifting, wide tires and rim brakes.
I loved that during the whole hour Grant’s fidget was a ratchet shifter, you could hear it throughout. This is making me want to dig out my rapid rise XTR derailleur from the 90s!
Excellent, excellent, excellent!!! For those of us who will probably never make it to Walnut Ridge or have a chance for a one on one with Grant, this is like striking gold. Thank you both!
LOL, I think you meant Walnut Creek! I met Grant once on his book tour for "Just Ride," and I've been to the Rivendell store in Walnut Creek once and it was a very nice experience. (Great book by the way. Everybody bicyclist should read it.) He's a great guy and I really like his common-sense and practical approach to bikes. I still have index shifters on my old Salsa Casseroll and have been wanting to switch to friction for the longest time. One of these days...
I am recently returned to riding bikes and I am in love with the sincerity of certain corners of the biking world. The complete lack of shame in their love of riding bikes and the romance surrounding it is heart warmingly refreshing
For racing, index brake lever shifting was a game changer. Being able shift while on the brake hoods or drops was a big improvement. It changed tactics too. At one time you would look to see if a person moved arm to reach a friction shifter. Then you would attack while they were moving arm to shift. For non racing situations, friction shifting is fine and you have fewer cases of people complaining about the gears not working. Front derailleurs are important. 1x is dumb as the chain line angles speed up chain and gear wear. I have a folding bike that came with 1x. But it had a front derailleur mount. Because the seat tube was oversized carbon, i had trouble finding a front derailleur that would shift properly because the derailleur was pushed too far out because of the oversized tube. Luckily i had a 1990s era campy record front derailleur. I put it on with 2 chainrings and it just had a small enough profile design and movement to work.
I am 100% with you on this, except that I also really like having indexed push button (or how do you call it?) on my MTB, that I use going to work and to ride offroad. If I go around a corner I can always be shure I can brake, even if I really need to shift because the slope has changed. When it starts shifting wrong you just have to adjust it, its really not that hard. I also have a 3x10 shimano setup and the range is very good and I can keep the chain mostly straight.
Absolutely agree at 26:50 that friction shifting is the best match for front derailleurs. I have a 30+ year old steel frame all-Campy bike with downtube shifters, it's an absolute joy to ride.
Grant Peterson has been proven right over and over and over again. Plus he's a damn good writer and sells really cool and high quality stuff. The man was popularizing gravel bikes while the rest of the bike world was still on 120psi 700x21c.
Gimme the 120 psi 21C on a comfortable frame over gravel bike anyday. I bike road 99% of the time. Gravel is great, but it's not the be all, I don't see the point why it's being pushed so hard when frankly majority of cyclists I know do not gravel.
Friction shifting is fine for you casual riders. I however can’t afford to miss any shifts because I do a lot of CAT6 racing on bike paths and in bike lanes.
Brilliant idea, Russ & Grant! Look at Japan's success with the Ametora movement recreating and improving vintage American workwear and popular Seiko reissues/homages of vintage watches.
Shimano did just release a MECHANICAL 12 speed 105 groupset, so there's that. Has two options: 52/36 or 50/34 and two cassette options as well: 11-32 or 11-34 to allow 1:1 pedaling fun. Best thing I like is it will fit on pre-existing 11sp setups.
Just road it this weekend and it was perfect. Index 7 sp and friction front. You can turn off index with a switch! It shifted perfectly, no hesitation on the cassette but quick solid shifts.
I’m much less obsessed over shifting than most bike nuts, and I am a bike nut. To me, shifting isn’t the most important aspect of a bike. But you got Grant to talk, and it’s always good to hear him talk. He’s insightful and funny, and I find him to be humane, between the lines of his sentences. He shows frustration, but I don’t think he has any disdain for those who disagree with him, and that’s a great quality.
Love this. Love. This. I’ve been a fan of friction shifters for over 50 years. The simple old 1960s and 70s ten speeds were not perfect, but many were beautifully made, and they still work perfectly.
I agree. My first good bike was a Nishiki International that I rode on the Bikecentenial route in the mid-70s. Not a single problem. Suntour/Dia Compe/ SR.
Hey, I have been riding touring bikes since 1968. Indexed shifting is like sliced bread. Whether down tube, bar end it is just easier. But if you want to bake your own bread, slice it with a knife, I have no issue with that.
When rebuilding my Softride Traveler for the Transamerica I upgraded EVERYTHING. It originally came with an RSX 3x7 groupset and Sun CR 18 rims. Decent for late 90a standards. I got a Phil bb, Omega 48h rear and 36h front laced to Phil hubs with DT Alpine 3 spokes. Tektro levers with Shimano long reach calipers. 28mm Schwalbe Marathon Plus tires, Continental tubes, Sugino XD600 26-36-46 crankset w/a Sram 12-36 9 sp cassette. Deore long cage rear der and a Ultegra front der along with Ultegra racheted bar-cons. Planet Bike fenders. Blackburn front rack. Planet bike rear w/denim Orlieb roller classics and handlebar bag. Found a blue Brooks B17 saddle. Wish I had a picture I could show. I did a blue/black marble w/solid blue harlequin wrap. Rebuilt the saddle mount and fiber bar connector assemblies. The springloaded stem was still good, so I just broke it down, cleaned and reaasembled it. So, what happened? I fell in love, moved to New Zealand and sold the bike. lol They guy who bought it checks in with me once in a while. He does 3-4 1 or 2 week tours per year. Just glad it's still on rhe road. I do miss it, though.
I bought an MB-2 also, on ebay, but the frame was a tad too small. So I sold the frame, but kept most of the components and hung them on a Surly frame!
Enjoyed this listen, especially the "New isn't better, new is new" because I feel that way as well. I do mtb XC comps, trials and even the occasional randonneuring so I appreciate just quality, durable, reliable components vs. just putting something out to market just because. For example, I know what I get from Paul's Components is going to be consistently the same. I've never felt Paul's makes cash grab disposable item. I'm not against change but I oppose poor craftmanship.
I tossed around the idea of going 1x or 2x but I just love the range of my 3x. Chainrings are 28/38/48 and the cassette is 11-40. It’s probably way lower than a stronger rider would need ever but I’m a big dude so that low gearing just works for me.
Me too but I realized that a 2x or 3x was better for me. I bought a second bike with a 48/38/28 same as you. Not sure is low gearing, feels pretty hard for me. My other bike is a 40-30-22. On flat roads feels like I need something bigger.
I moved from Chicago to San Francisco in 1984. The first book I bought upon arrival was Grant's book Roads to Ride (Alameda, Contra Costa, Marin edition). It changed my life. I did most of the Marin rides as well as a few of the east bay rides. After a brief stint in LA in the early 2000's for my wife's Master's degree, we moved to Marin because of the roads I discovered in Grant's book. My daughter loved growing up here (although she never caught my bike riding bug, she did become an accomplished horseback rider and hiker amongst the redwoods). During the pandemic, I converted my 1989 Merlin road bike to a fixed gear (48x18 - with thanks to White Industries and Sugino) and have ridden more miles per month (much along the Paradise Loop and in West Marin) than ever before ... all without ever worrying about the availability of derailleurs ;-) Although, I was worried when you suggested rim brakes may go away. I did manage to source a beautiful set of Campy skeleton brakes with non-shifting levers since I am just too old to skid. Anyhow, just a note of appreciation for Grant and the outsized impact he's had on my life and the life of my family. If my Merlin wasn't so bulletproof, I'd love to get myself a Rivendell someday. But seeing as how I had my GreaseGuard bottom bracket fully restored a couple years ago after 30+ years of service (thank you Josh at Mikes Bikes), I probably won't be in the market for a Rivendell before 2040. Hopefully, you'll still be building those works of art and sourcing proper parts by then.
My biggest bike inspiration started with Bridgestone to now Russ my biggest bike influence today, this could not have been a better day. Seriously, thank you for this. Although, I have a flattering critique, this could’ve been a 2-3 part very special episode to hear you both talk live about anything just anything, even fishing haha. Again, thank you.
Great discussion, thanks for hosting and posting. Grant mentioning the last time a production bike had friction shifters was 1986 or 87 made me think: "wait, I've been riding friction since my first purchase in 1989". Which at the time was relatively cruddy Exage groupset but the shifters still had a switch to put them in friction mode, as did the higher end thumbies at the time. Anyway, not much mention of "thumbies" per se as far as "what to horde" in the coming "componapocolypse" (more for me!) but most of the sweet vintage options can do friction and pull a lot of cable.
Instantly the 25th anniversary Shimano groupset comes to my mind! I think this and the following 10 speed groupset was the climax of Shimano tech-perfect shifting while being relatively light. I run both of them on my 2 titanium frames for more than 2 decades now and they still work flawlessly. Never had the need for more gears
The 9/10-speed era was the pinnacle of drivetrain design. Everything since then has just been pushing the limits of what's physically possible, often at the expense of simplicity and reliability.
WOW... what a conversation!!! Old poor builder here.... The huge cross compatibility, even more with minor mods, was so creatively empowering. And fun!
Great content! I lived for decades in Walnut Creek and rode a number of bikes built by Mark Able and rode with him many times. Always had interesting interactions with Grant and crew. Great mates! Before migrating to Sydney, Australia, I ran into Grant at Shell Ridge ( a local fantastic Cycling area that I miss heaps) saunter cycling with a mate and had a great bon voyage from him. Fond memories. Cheers, Michael D.
Great conversation! I was just getting into the bike industry in the early 90's and remember all of the confusion for folks. Also a dealer of Merry Sales, and a great support of them. thanks for all of your hard work on this video; it was interesting and very informative.
Honestly if you guys started an online petition for Shimano to do something like re-release a classic group set, that might get enough interest for them to actually take it seriously
I don't dislike friction shifting but I'm a drop bar index brifter kind of guy. I have a Rivendell Roadini with 2001 Dura Ace 9 speed set up on it and its all I need in life. Its my sweet spot.
Just rebuilt my Specialized Tricross Comp. It's maybe 15 years old and the frame looks new. Such a good bike. I put new almost everything on it but I binned the 105 index system. So over engineered, too many components, too unnecessary. I upgraded to Dia Compe bar end friction shifters and the Ultergra drivetrain has never shifted so smoothly. It's amazing how your brain remembers, I'm old enough to have been riding before the index systems took over. It's a bit like playing a musical instrument, well a lot more simple. It's bulletproof and I had almost forgotten how good this system is.
Thank you both for this great hour! I worked at a Bridgestone dealer from 88-95 and alway thought they were great bikes. In fact my first mtb was an early MB-2.
The Bridge Stone bikes were amazing. Well thought out good reliable parts. Their ad campaign was very cool . Hopefully Pineapple Bob is hammering away on a Bridgestone!👍🚴
Interesting take on the industry. I haven't bought a bike from an LBS in probably 20 years; preffering the secondary market. I am still riding 7/8/9/10 speeds on my bikes. I almost feels like I need to start hoarding parts going forward.
When I began mountain biking, in the early 90's, I was convinced that the rapid fire Shimano shifters were going to be significantly easier than the thumb shifters. I knew that the thumb shifters were simpler and likely more reliable, but I wanted the rapid fire. Fast forward to present day, and in my stable is a late 80's or very early 90's Rockhopper Comp with thumb shifters, and I love them. Now, these old Deore shifters sort of contradict what Grant said about friction shifting disappearing in the late 80's. The front shifter is full friction and the rear is indexed, but has a lever to switch to friction. I also owned a Shimano reel back in the early 90's too.
Love the focus on simple and reliable. Have a Soma Buena Vista I love, is super well made, and so comfortable to ride for my 62 year old carcass. Except for my travel bike (Tern BYB), it's steel frames and friction shifting all the way. Kudos for bringing this self effacing legend to give us the history and context for shifting that works every time.
I performed heresy in 1985 by putting a Suntour gruppo on a Colnago and it was amazing! I have missed that bike. The insights here are invaluable. I would comment that domestic manufacture of bike parts may become very valuable if geopolitics continue a descent towards conflict. Its a hedge, but could really leave one in the catbirds seat. The last 3 years has been a lesson in relying in global manufacturing can really bite you if there is a disruption.
Where I live it's being over-run with ex-Californians but the only good thing is they sell their 80s and 90s mt and road bikes or donate them to Goodwill. In the last 5 years I have gotten a couple hundred bikes and stripped them for parts of which many are XTR and Dura-Ace. So I have become a parts hoarder not to sell them but to feel good at night when I go to sleep knowing that I can repair my old bikes, which rarely need new parts. I have gifted a few friends with choice parts to keep their bikes going.
good interview… I can totally relate… I am an old retro grouch that likes cables cantilever brakes friction shifting or single speed… Keep up the good work Russ 🌲👏🏽👏🏽
Hi Russ, I'm down in Australia and I've experienced it myself, I have an Australian brand Touring Hybrid bike called Vivente which is part of the Gemini Bicycle brand that's been around since the 70's in Sydney, anyway my Bicycle which is the Patagonia model and is the traditional set up of drop bars with bar-end shifters, the Shimano Dura-ace 9 speed index bar end on the right for the rear cluster and the friction shift for the left for the 3 chain wheels up front. During the Covid period when supplies were impossible to get and existing stock were depleted, the Manufacturer moved his assembly factory from Sydney to Tasmania but has now gone completely away from Deraillier assemblies and have gone to the Rollhoff hub gearing with gates belt drives pretty much doubling the price of his bikes. Just the hub itself is over $2,000 so yeah that's the biggest cost in the modeling. I asked about getting replacements for the Dura-ace shifters and he said Shimano are not making them anymore......I just hope I don't snap one.
15:00 That's why I love friction shifting: because it works with everything. And, also, because I don't have to be doing the annoying little adjustments that indexed shifting requires.
If bicycles are supposed to be the "green" way of getting about, why is there a deliberate effort to make parts so difficult to get? I have bought a cheap bike because the parts are standard and the gear and brake cables are easy to get. I loved the friction shifters!! I don't do battery shifters nor do I do ebikes. Many older bikes only run today because parts can be got or cannibalized. My first bike was a Carlton Grand Prix Racing bike (1976) which I got in 1983 when I was 12 years old. It had a suntour derailleur and had frame shifters and was 10 speed. Although I buckled the wheels, punctures the tires, snapped the brake cables and gear cables, I could still repair (my friend did the expert required stuff) and get parts. I advise to get spare derailleurs, bike cables and spare tires (which have a shelf of 20 years in a vacuum sealed bag). A well looked after bike never dies.
Got me interested in friction shifter.... I have to look it up or try it. Having not ever used them I am imagining each shift needs to be trimmed which I think would be annoying.... But I will look up more info. I love simplicity and this is mechanical simplicity... If I'm getting it. Thanks for exploring unusual subjects!
The Acera RD was mentioned near the end. I just put an Altus M310 (the one with oversized pulley wheels) on a 90s 7 speed MTB and it’s also excellent but not sure what max cog size would be (mine is 32) I’m thinking of using on another bike too.
Where a big market for "peak mechanical" might actually exist is in Japan itself, as there are many commuter and road bikes used for commuting which have Shimano mechanical group sets, especially in cities like Kyoto.
It's funny because friction shifting is before my time, so I've never used it. But I have the same feeling about setting up and maintaining my Shimano ultegra 11 speed mechanical. It's not difficult but it's a challenge. Using tools to get the indexing perfect is fun and I have purposely avoid electronic groupsets so I can keep my time in the workshop on mechanical
Absolutely loved thise style shifters. Its about money. I have 2 bikes at home that are over 30 years old and still rocking. The components are also old and still working. I high quality bike should last a lifetime, of course they are steel.
This conversation is fascinating because of the depth to which theses esteemed experts pursue the subject. It could redefine the term "Anal". I am a builder, shop owner with ore than 150K miles over the years. I like everything about bicycles...almost.
I use friction on a time trial bike. Electronic is better, but friction comes 2nd - it's cheap. Index shifting takes too much force and because of where shifters are (front tip of steering) , they affect steering stability when you have to apply a lot of force.
I got here from researching to find a way to use bike parts on a wheelchair, and am seeing the same trend - years ago people were developing lever-propelled chairs, some with several gears, disk brakes, etc, now theyre all gone. Not made anymore, no parts can be found. Its all been replaced by 5 to 7 thousand dollar clip on electric devices to push the chair. And you cant do anything to adjust or repair those, you have to buy a new one when the battery dies. I want added mechanical advantage, lever arms and some gears and especially brakes for sharp slopes and steering downhill - i have to build it all myself. All the world has to offer is an expensive unrepairable electronic black box!
I'm pretty sure that adjusting the FD is starting to become a forgotten skill. Often it involves some slight bending and a lot of testing. But oh boy when there's no rubbing at any combination, it really feels good (not that it should be used that way, but still). And I'm talking about indexed stuff. I'm also a really big fan of cantilevers. The modulation is just great when done right.
Enjoyed the discussion early on regarding friction shifters and Bridgestone. My 1st new mountain bike was a Bridgestone MB-5 I purchased in 1988. One of the reasons I picked it was because it had friction shifters when none of the other manufacturers I looked at had them. I rode that bike year round in Minnesota for 5 years and it never needed a tune up. If you aren't familiar with working on bikes (which i wasn't at the time) and do not know how to index gears, friction shifters make a lot of sense!
Grant is such a badass. I'm still riding my 2x10 and I love it. Trying to source shorter cranks and it's a difficult thing. Even Riv discontinued the setup I was looking for. I guess it's time to stock up.
I have an old Sakai but I'm putting together I'm going to be putting friction shifters I have a Fuji that I've been franken steining and again, friction shifters. I've been on your channel for a couple years now and it's always exciting a lot of time to gets two technical but then I go 6 months for example, and I can go back and re-watch and understand better. Love this channel, really love the history lesson in this video
I liked the rachet friction shifters but mounted on the stem. Loved the elliptical chainrings with platform pedals, I used to have, no need for cleats.
Thank you for letting us learn. I appreciate your reinforcement for my desires. I'm currently acurining and refining my bicycling touring equipment. I in doing so keep the dream alive of long distance travels alive. Bless you for sharing your passion. Ride On.
The internal struggle visible on Russ' face at 58:15 when that comb fiddling sound is happening is palpable. Master Jedi interviewer listening skillz on full display!
My problem with rapid rise is it relies on a powerful spring and/or a clean cable for the downshift. In wetter areas like New England I've preferred downshifting with my own force. I would like to see are ratchet brifters. I got an Acera from my lbs just to get me going until I found something else, and I works on my wide range 3 x 9 so perfectly that I never think about it anymore.
A classic group set. Huret Jubilee, optional cage configurations. Simplex pushrod front. Suntour Power Ratchet shifters. Cup and cone high flange hubs with a stainless steel option, $350.00usd each. TRP RRL brake levers. Gipiemme Special cranks. Campagnolo earo seatpost. Italian bottom bracket (lefty loosy, righty tightly both sides). Did I miss anything😊
Huret Jubilee with Mafac (?) hubs and a Stronglight 49D chainset, were the thing to have. The hubs had a red oil port cover in the middle. The trick was to use short arm derailleurs in that era, because touring cage versions were invariably sluggish.
Now, I learned of this word from this channel, and thank you so much for expanding my vocab in this direction, but listening to this conversation I can't help but think of the word, "enshitification". A solid 3x9 HG drive train is pretty hard to beat for simplicity, reliability, range, capability, etc... for by and far the majority of people's needs.
If you appreciate the bicycle in it's simple affordable form i would highly, highly encourage people to start hoarding a bit parts, take advantage of what your environment has to offer, for instance here there are recycling centers where people are dumping great bikes, in the worst case you will find a bike with some good parts on it either way, I've been seeing where things were heading and took action years ago, i quickly built a big pile of good vintage parts and bikes that greatly exceed my own consumption.
My son is howling with laughter listening to the intro & beginning of your banter back & forth at .25x playback speed. It does sound pretty funny. 😂😂😂 All kidding aside, we really enjoyed the interview!
For 20 years I've hoped one of the big companies would come out with an upmarket "World Tour" group set, that would satisfy serious tourists, traditional off-roaders, classic bikers and similar folks. They won't because it defeats the thing they are working towards, which is planned obsolescence with increasing regularity. If there are no standard dimensions, you are locked into a system until the company pulls the plug, when nothing including the frame will accommodate last year's stuff. Ironically, index shifting protocols eliminated the need for it. Jockey wheels hugged the sprockets, derailleur springs offered the right amount of feedback, and overall engineering was very good, enabling friction shifting for anyone. I never understood the pushback on triple chainsets. A third ring and fractionally longer bolts weigh as much as a packet of gum.
I think that grip shift was a success as the click indexing caused more problems then it solved. I'm still a fan of a 3 ring front using grip shift as it has the same ability as old friction shifters for keeping the chain from rubbing from drastic gear use. i still hate, and i mean hate grip shift but i give credit where it is do.
Preferring friction shifting is like preferring a manual typewriter to a computer. Or...preferring film to digital for photography. I have a nice manual Olympia typewriter from 1972 and I keep it in the closet so I can cover the end of the world when it comes. The complication of the bicycle is unfortunate. Simplicity is one of the bike's most important virtues. I seldom ride a bike without indexing, but a lot of the new stuff is unnecessary.
Oh yes, I still look at the Shimano Deore rear and front derrailluers on my 1986 Ridgeback 601 in admiration! Chromed and pollished metal, no need for paint, it looks honest, clean and purposeful!
For the shifter position issue all you need to do is swap the matchmaker mounts - left on right side & right on left side. Solves the problem and sets up better for 1 or 2 finger braking.
There's new proprietary parts coming out I still hope to find derierraliers , cables , tires, bearings and tubes for my older bikes from the 2000s era .
At one time, I was reasonably proficient with friction shifting but when Shimano introduced their own version of indexed shifting I quickly converted and I have never had any desire to go back. I don't want to hope I'll get the next shift right, I want to know I will. I think we have romanticized the old days and I really don't know why.
@@PathLessPedaledTV A couple of examples where technology has gone too far: 1) Riding tubeless that creates more problems than it solves, and 2) Disc brakes with limited applicability and are more expensive and more complex to service.
Our high tech civilizations has totally lost touch with the value of process, the value of attainment of skill, the value of hard won individual progress. Bicycles for me were always a means of shrugging off the tyranny of technology, a means of relying upon self rather than the other. You see the switch away from this today in photography where the high tech cameras are so good that it can seem like an insufferable inconvenience that you even have to be present when the photo is taken! I worked for years to learn the difficult skill of anticipating the action moment in sports and wildlife photography so as to press the shutter button at the decisive moment. The wildlife camera I use today can shoot 10 frames a second and the cards can only literally thousands of images. So many people just hold the shutter button down and hope for the best. I still try to anticipate the moment and capture it with a single button press. I may not capture quite as many decisive moments the the pray and spray crowd but the ones I do capture are far more rewarding to me. I don't need Shimano to shift the gears on my bike via battery powered electric shifters…thanks anyway but I'd rather do it myself.
I have a bunch of bikes but these days my daily driver is a 1989 Ritchey Ascent Comp I bought recently on eBay. For me bikes haven't really improved since that time. "Shimano has the best engineers but they don't ride bikes," - Tom Ritchey, around 1988.
I'm building a new road bike and my choices to be able to build a modern mechanical bike with rim brakes was EXTREMELY limited. Definitely can't with the big brands, they just won't let you, no choices. With their cabling etc, and disc only, you're really forced into electric hydraulic disc brakes. I don't know why customers want to be told what they can and can't enjoy and how to enjoy the hobby, it confuses me. I think choices is always a good thing. But I guess the "modern" cyclist doesn't want choices and want to be told what they can ride.
Just had a great ride on my Cannondale M800 with Pepperoni fork & Force 40 breaking! Suntour triple crank, Deore XT thumbshifters, Control Tech post & bar ends, Turbo saddle & Hyperlight copper AL bar. Felt freaking awesome after my last ride 20+ yrs ago….I found my gravel bike!
I have gone back to riding a single speed steel road bike and couldn't be happier. I grew tired of ever changing standards and BS. It's just a bike after all.
Because globalization decimated manufacturing in North America, it's going to be very expensive to make any parts here again. I think one way we could move forward is to design a fully open-source drivetrain. Anyone can make the components, or parts for them, and you'd be able to mix and match them.
I was a bicycle mechanic in the 80s, I remember when Indexed shifting first hit and how I despised Shimano. We used to mix and match parts from all the suppliers, bullhorn bars with barcon shifters driving a campy derailleur over a suntour freewheel spun on a Bullseye or Mavic hub. It was the barnstorming days....
And everyone's bike a little different! Nobody's bike was an industry clone.
Yep, Shimano Light Action I think they called it. You could turn it off.
I'm still using a RSX group, the "cheap" version of the SIS, only one minor issue so far is that grease becomes solid in the right shifter and it needs to be cleaned every few years, else it would not shift correctly, at least in the winter... @rollinrat4850
In the late eighties, early nineties my first mechanic job was at Bargain Basement Bikes down by U of Arizona. We made all sorts of combos work. Shimano SIS was my first realization of engineered obsolescence. So when I built my dream bike , a Yeti Ultimate, I equipped it with the much prettier Suntour XC Pro.
Yeah, I remember that. In fact my road bike that I built in the early 80's still has a mis-mash of parts. Campy, Shimano, TTT, Mavic, and 6 other brands of components all on one bicycle. (custom frame).
The sound of the chain settling into a cog is so satisfying.
Shimano and SRAM are just adding complication for marketing reasons because the dopes that buy their stuff are only interested in the latest trends and having the latest stuff, regardless of whether the latest stuff is actually any better that what went before. The single most appealing thing about a bicycle to me, is it's simplicity - which brings with it innate efficiency and durability. These properties are being eroded..
Yes, I’m a bike nerd but if you watched the video Russ put out for an overpriced bar end ratchet friction shifter …. just in case you are in need due to swapping out your drivetrain components like most do so less than changing tires…so there’s that. ✌️
I agree on the philosophy side of simplicity, and for that I have a single speed run of the mill parts on a steel frame and it's glorious and super enjoyable. But I also really really enjoy my road bike and my gravel / touring bike and I wouldn't want to give up indexed shifting on them. I've never personally worn out a brifter and that's good enough for me. I can get a 105, Ultegra or GRX hydro brifter for the price of Russ's friction shifter and while the friction shifter is super cool and while I'm happy that things like that are available I personally am not the customer for that...
I’ve been thinking for a while now that the newest tech bikes are just hard to fall in love with. Sure they may be light and aero and shifting is super fast but they are fragile, fussy and how can one fall for and respect the engineering of a machine or it’s components that may be “obsolete” in a few years with proprietary parts and no longer supported software? Also batteries!
@rollinrat4850and the problem is that he tried to bleed it himself.
why waste your time and effort trying to do it yourself when you can just pay someone else to do it?
@@pbandjosh "I can get a 105, Ultegra or GRX hydro brifter for the price of Russ's friction shifter"... Have you actually tried? I built a GRX 810 setup and EACH shifter/brake was $300! Kinda wish I'd just gone with bar ends and Paul brakes TBH.
I just picked up Rivendell Roadini with downtube friction shifters this spring. Best bike I ever owned. Super comfortable, bombproof and looks like a work of art. I ride 10K miles per year, so comfort and reliability is more important to me than raw speed. It is very satisfying to feel the cable changing gear with your finger. It also seems quieter. Shimano indexed shifters can trim the front derailleur up to a point. But it still rubs a bit in some gear combinations. With friction shifters you can trim the front derailleur in any gear combination. Shimano road shifters have a tendency to chew up cables. Cable on friction shifter will last years. I really appreciate that there are still bike manufacturer's like Rivendell that produce simple bikes with friction shifting, wide tires and rim brakes.
thank you
I loved that during the whole hour Grant’s fidget was a ratchet shifter, you could hear it throughout. This is making me want to dig out my rapid rise XTR derailleur from the 90s!
Excellent, excellent, excellent!!! For those of us who will probably never make it to Walnut Ridge or have a chance for a one on one with Grant, this is like striking gold. Thank you both!
Pure gold
LOL, I think you meant Walnut Creek! I met Grant once on his book tour for "Just Ride," and I've been to the Rivendell store in Walnut Creek once and it was a very nice experience. (Great book by the way. Everybody bicyclist should read it.) He's a great guy and I really like his common-sense and practical approach to bikes. I still have index shifters on my old Salsa Casseroll and have been wanting to switch to friction for the longest time. One of these days...
"What else are there but knives and cameras?" - I love this Grant quote!
Tractors, chainsaws and fishing reels...
😂😂😂
I am recently returned to riding bikes and I am in love with the sincerity of certain corners of the biking world. The complete lack of shame in their love of riding bikes and the romance surrounding it is heart warmingly refreshing
Grant, the tortured artist of bicycling! Thanks for presenting this Russ.
Shimano 7700 and 7800 were the most durable with 7800 being the KING.
BOTH are lighter than the latest and most expensive shimano dura ace groupset.
For racing, index brake lever shifting was a game changer. Being able shift while on the brake hoods or drops was a big improvement. It changed tactics too. At one time you would look to see if a person moved arm to reach a friction shifter. Then you would attack while they were moving arm to shift.
For non racing situations, friction shifting is fine and you have fewer cases of people complaining about the gears not working.
Front derailleurs are important. 1x is dumb as the chain line angles speed up chain and gear wear.
I have a folding bike that came with 1x. But it had a front derailleur mount. Because the seat tube was oversized carbon, i had trouble finding a front derailleur that would shift properly because the derailleur was pushed too far out because of the oversized tube. Luckily i had a 1990s era campy record front derailleur. I put it on with 2 chainrings and it just had a small enough profile design and movement to work.
I am 100% with you on this, except that I also really like having indexed push button (or how do you call it?) on my MTB, that I use going to work and to ride offroad. If I go around a corner I can always be shure I can brake, even if I really need to shift because the slope has changed.
When it starts shifting wrong you just have to adjust it, its really not that hard.
I also have a 3x10 shimano setup and the range is very good and I can keep the chain mostly straight.
Thanks Russ for setting this up, and thanks Grant for keeping the tried-and-true bike technologies available.
Absolutely agree at 26:50 that friction shifting is the best match for front derailleurs. I have a 30+ year old steel frame all-Campy bike with downtube shifters, it's an absolute joy to ride.
Grant Peterson has been proven right over and over and over again. Plus he's a damn good writer and sells really cool and high quality stuff. The man was popularizing gravel bikes while the rest of the bike world was still on 120psi 700x21c.
Gimme the 120 psi 21C on a comfortable frame over gravel bike anyday. I bike road 99% of the time. Gravel is great, but it's not the be all, I don't see the point why it's being pushed so hard when frankly majority of cyclists I know do not gravel.
@@zypang1447it seems like you have a good insight on this topic.
Could you share some of your ideas on this topic?
@@zypang1447 Funny that the, the majority of cyclists I know don't do road.
…and he’s responsible for killing the Bridgestone Bicycle Company in the USA.
@@davidsparling3505 How do you figure that?
Friction shifting is fine for you casual riders. I however can’t afford to miss any shifts because I do a lot of CAT6 racing on bike paths and in bike lanes.
I'm really into Russ' idea of Shimano releasing a "Classic" groupset! That would make for some amazing builds!
They do! My 3Rensho track bike is built up with it. A similar road group would be awesome. So simple, so solid.
Agreed. And every bike would not be a clone bike.
Brilliant idea, Russ & Grant! Look at Japan's success with the Ametora movement recreating and improving vintage American workwear and popular Seiko reissues/homages of vintage watches.
Shimano did just release a MECHANICAL 12 speed 105 groupset, so there's that. Has two options: 52/36 or 50/34 and two cassette options as well: 11-32 or 11-34 to allow 1:1 pedaling fun. Best thing I like is it will fit on pre-existing 11sp setups.
Everyone laughs about 90s MTB but what this guy seems to be saying is that 90s MTB drivetrains were the ultimate, and I 100% agree: bring back 3X7 XT!
Just road it this weekend and it was perfect. Index 7 sp and friction front. You can turn off index with a switch! It shifted perfectly, no hesitation on the cassette but quick solid shifts.
I’m much less obsessed over shifting than most bike nuts, and I am a bike nut. To me, shifting isn’t the most important aspect of a bike. But you got Grant to talk, and it’s always good to hear him talk. He’s insightful and funny, and I find him to be humane, between the lines of his sentences. He shows frustration, but I don’t think he has any disdain for those who disagree with him, and that’s a great quality.
Love this. Love. This. I’ve been a fan of friction shifters for over 50 years. The simple old 1960s and 70s ten speeds were not perfect, but many were beautifully made, and they still work perfectly.
I agree. My first good bike was a Nishiki International that I rode on the Bikecentenial route in the mid-70s. Not a single problem. Suntour/Dia Compe/ SR.
My everyday road bike is my 1973 Fuji Finest, and I keep up fine with everyone else who are riding their new bikes!
friction shifting with 10-12 speed is a joy! It always falls into place. I've used bar ends with really high end Sram rear derailleurs and loved it.
Hey, I have been riding touring bikes since 1968. Indexed shifting is like sliced bread. Whether down tube, bar end it is just easier. But if you want to bake your own bread, slice it with a knife, I have no issue with that.
When Grant said “what else are there besides knives and cameras” I felt that. Lol
Yup!
Fishing rods and reels 😊
Pine tar soap, of course!
revolvers👍
When rebuilding my Softride Traveler for the Transamerica I upgraded EVERYTHING. It originally came with an RSX 3x7 groupset and Sun CR 18 rims. Decent for late 90a standards.
I got a Phil bb, Omega 48h rear and 36h front laced to Phil hubs with DT Alpine 3 spokes. Tektro levers with Shimano long reach calipers. 28mm Schwalbe Marathon Plus tires, Continental tubes, Sugino XD600 26-36-46 crankset w/a Sram 12-36 9 sp cassette. Deore long cage rear der and a Ultegra front der along with Ultegra racheted bar-cons. Planet Bike fenders. Blackburn front rack. Planet bike rear w/denim Orlieb roller classics and handlebar bag. Found a blue Brooks B17 saddle. Wish I had a picture I could show. I did a blue/black marble w/solid blue harlequin wrap.
Rebuilt the saddle mount and fiber bar connector assemblies. The springloaded stem was still good, so I just broke it down, cleaned and reaasembled it. So, what happened? I fell in love, moved to New Zealand and sold the bike. lol They guy who bought it checks in with me once in a while. He does 3-4 1 or 2 week tours per year. Just glad it's still on rhe road. I do miss it, though.
I recently built up a Bridgestone MB-2 with old school Suntour components. It's a lovely ride.
I bought an MB-2 also, on ebay, but the frame was a tad too small. So I sold the frame, but kept most of the components and hung them on a Surly frame!
swish
Enjoyed this listen, especially the "New isn't better, new is new" because I feel that way as well. I do mtb XC comps, trials and even the occasional randonneuring so I appreciate just quality, durable, reliable components vs. just putting something out to market just because. For example, I know what I get from Paul's Components is going to be consistently the same. I've never felt Paul's makes cash grab disposable item. I'm not against change but I oppose poor craftmanship.
And new is often worse, when it comes to reliability and compatibility.
If Grant isn't some kind of mad genius, he certainly has the persona down.
Being an asshole should not be a base of your personality.
I tossed around the idea of going 1x or 2x but I just love the range of my 3x. Chainrings are 28/38/48 and the cassette is 11-40. It’s probably way lower than a stronger rider would need ever but I’m a big dude so that low gearing just works for me.
Me too but I realized that a 2x or 3x was better for me. I bought a second bike with a 48/38/28 same as you. Not sure is low gearing, feels pretty hard for me. My other bike is a 40-30-22. On flat roads feels like I need something bigger.
I moved from Chicago to San Francisco in 1984. The first book I bought upon arrival was Grant's book Roads to Ride (Alameda, Contra Costa, Marin edition). It changed my life. I did most of the Marin rides as well as a few of the east bay rides. After a brief stint in LA in the early 2000's for my wife's Master's degree, we moved to Marin because of the roads I discovered in Grant's book. My daughter loved growing up here (although she never caught my bike riding bug, she did become an accomplished horseback rider and hiker amongst the redwoods).
During the pandemic, I converted my 1989 Merlin road bike to a fixed gear (48x18 - with thanks to White Industries and Sugino) and have ridden more miles per month (much along the Paradise Loop and in West Marin) than ever before ... all without ever worrying about the availability of derailleurs ;-) Although, I was worried when you suggested rim brakes may go away.
I did manage to source a beautiful set of Campy skeleton brakes with non-shifting levers since I am just too old to skid.
Anyhow, just a note of appreciation for Grant and the outsized impact he's had on my life and the life of my family. If my Merlin wasn't so bulletproof, I'd love to get myself a Rivendell someday. But seeing as how I had my GreaseGuard bottom bracket fully restored a couple years ago after 30+ years of service (thank you Josh at Mikes Bikes), I probably won't be in the market for a Rivendell before 2040. Hopefully, you'll still be building those works of art and sourcing proper parts by then.
My biggest bike inspiration started with Bridgestone to now Russ my biggest bike influence today, this could not have been a better day. Seriously, thank you for this. Although, I have a flattering critique, this could’ve been a 2-3 part very special episode to hear you both talk live about anything just anything, even fishing haha. Again, thank you.
Great discussion, thanks for hosting and posting. Grant mentioning the last time a production bike had friction shifters was 1986 or 87 made me think: "wait, I've been riding friction since my first purchase in 1989". Which at the time was relatively cruddy Exage groupset but the shifters still had a switch to put them in friction mode, as did the higher end thumbies at the time. Anyway, not much mention of "thumbies" per se as far as "what to horde" in the coming "componapocolypse" (more for me!) but most of the sweet vintage options can do friction and pull a lot of cable.
Instantly the 25th anniversary Shimano groupset comes to my mind!
I think this and the following 10 speed groupset was the climax of Shimano tech-perfect shifting while being relatively light.
I run both of them on my 2 titanium frames for more than 2 decades now and they still work flawlessly.
Never had the need for more gears
The 9/10-speed era was the pinnacle of drivetrain design. Everything since then has just been pushing the limits of what's physically possible, often at the expense of simplicity and reliability.
Grant is the man !
WOW... what a conversation!!! Old poor builder here.... The huge cross compatibility, even more with minor mods, was so creatively empowering. And fun!
Great content! I lived for decades in Walnut Creek and rode a number of bikes built by Mark Able and rode with him many times. Always had interesting interactions with Grant and crew. Great mates! Before migrating to Sydney, Australia, I ran into Grant at Shell Ridge ( a local fantastic Cycling area that I miss heaps) saunter cycling with a mate and had a great bon voyage from him. Fond memories. Cheers, Michael D.
Great conversation! I was just getting into the bike industry in the early 90's and remember all of the confusion for folks. Also a dealer of Merry Sales, and a great support of them. thanks for all of your hard work on this video; it was interesting and very informative.
Honestly if you guys started an online petition for Shimano to do something like re-release a classic group set, that might get enough interest for them to actually take it seriously
I don't dislike friction shifting but I'm a drop bar index brifter kind of guy. I have a Rivendell Roadini with 2001 Dura Ace 9 speed set up on it and its all I need in life. Its my sweet spot.
Just rebuilt my Specialized Tricross Comp. It's maybe 15 years old and the frame looks new. Such a good bike. I put new almost everything on it but I binned the 105 index system. So over engineered, too many components, too unnecessary. I upgraded to Dia Compe bar end friction shifters and the Ultergra drivetrain has never shifted so smoothly. It's amazing how your brain remembers, I'm old enough to have been riding before the index systems took over. It's a bit like playing a musical instrument, well a lot more simple. It's bulletproof and I had almost forgotten how good this system is.
Thank you both for this great hour!
I worked at a Bridgestone dealer from 88-95 and alway thought they were great bikes.
In fact my first mtb was an early MB-2.
The Bridge Stone bikes were amazing. Well thought out good reliable parts. Their ad campaign was very cool .
Hopefully Pineapple Bob is hammering away on a Bridgestone!👍🚴
Interesting take on the industry. I haven't bought a bike from an LBS in probably 20 years; preffering the secondary market. I am still riding 7/8/9/10 speeds on my bikes. I almost feels like I need to start hoarding parts going forward.
When I began mountain biking, in the early 90's, I was convinced that the rapid fire Shimano shifters were going to be significantly easier than the thumb shifters. I knew that the thumb shifters were simpler and likely more reliable, but I wanted the rapid fire. Fast forward to present day, and in my stable is a late 80's or very early 90's Rockhopper Comp with thumb shifters, and I love them. Now, these old Deore shifters sort of contradict what Grant said about friction shifting disappearing in the late 80's. The front shifter is full friction and the rear is indexed, but has a lever to switch to friction. I also owned a Shimano reel back in the early 90's too.
Love the focus on simple and reliable. Have a Soma Buena Vista I love, is super well made, and so comfortable to ride for my 62 year old carcass. Except for my travel bike (Tern BYB), it's steel frames and friction shifting all the way. Kudos for bringing this self effacing legend to give us the history and context for shifting that works every time.
Hey, I’d like to know what you think of your Tern. I had a Brompton but sold it, I’m too big for those tiny 16” wheels.
I performed heresy in 1985 by putting a Suntour gruppo on a Colnago and it was amazing! I have missed that bike. The insights here are invaluable. I would comment that domestic manufacture of bike parts may become very valuable if geopolitics continue a descent towards conflict. Its a hedge, but could really leave one in the catbirds seat. The last 3 years has been a lesson in relying in global manufacturing can really bite you if there is a disruption.
The 1991 Buckler-Colnago pro team was sponsored by SunTour, i think they were the last European team to race on SunTour at the major races.
Amazing stream, super inforative and great history lesson. Grant is amazing, Russ you asked great questions, thank you both
Where I live it's being over-run with ex-Californians but the only good thing is they sell their 80s and 90s mt and road bikes or donate them to Goodwill. In the last 5 years I have gotten a couple hundred bikes and stripped them for parts of which many are XTR and Dura-Ace. So I have become a parts hoarder not to sell them but to feel good at night when I go to sleep knowing that I can repair my old bikes, which rarely need new parts. I have gifted a few friends with choice parts to keep their bikes going.
good interview… I can totally relate… I am an old retro grouch that likes cables cantilever brakes friction shifting or single speed… Keep up the good work Russ 🌲👏🏽👏🏽
Hi Russ, I'm down in Australia and I've experienced it myself, I have an Australian brand Touring Hybrid bike called Vivente which is part of the Gemini Bicycle brand that's been around since the 70's in Sydney, anyway my Bicycle which is the Patagonia model and is the traditional set up of drop bars with bar-end shifters, the Shimano Dura-ace 9 speed index bar end on the right for the rear cluster and the friction shift for the left for the 3 chain wheels up front. During the Covid period when supplies were impossible to get and existing stock were depleted, the Manufacturer moved his assembly factory from Sydney to Tasmania but has now gone completely away from Deraillier assemblies and have gone to the Rollhoff hub gearing with gates belt drives pretty much doubling the price of his bikes. Just the hub itself is over $2,000 so yeah that's the biggest cost in the modeling. I asked about getting replacements for the Dura-ace shifters and he said Shimano are not making them anymore......I just hope I don't snap one.
Microshift is doing cool stuff and the price is right.
Microshift and S-Ride have surprisingly good build quality, considering they're newer and relatively unknown brands!
Agreed.
This guy is the Norm Macdonald of the bicycle industry. Dudes hilarious, looks and sounds like Norm
15:00 That's why I love friction shifting: because it works with everything. And, also, because I don't have to be doing the annoying little adjustments that indexed shifting requires.
If bicycles are supposed to be the "green" way of getting about, why is there a deliberate effort to make parts so difficult to get? I have bought a cheap bike because the parts are standard and the gear and brake cables are easy to get. I loved the friction shifters!! I don't do battery shifters nor do I do ebikes. Many older bikes only run today because parts can be got or cannibalized. My first bike was a Carlton Grand Prix Racing bike (1976) which I got in 1983 when I was 12 years old. It had a suntour derailleur and had frame shifters and was 10 speed. Although I buckled the wheels, punctures the tires, snapped the brake cables and gear cables, I could still repair (my friend did the expert required stuff) and get parts. I advise to get spare derailleurs, bike cables and spare tires (which have a shelf of 20 years in a vacuum sealed bag). A well looked after bike never dies.
Got me interested in friction shifter.... I have to look it up or try it. Having not ever used them I am imagining each shift needs to be trimmed which I think would be annoying.... But I will look up more info. I love simplicity and this is mechanical simplicity... If I'm getting it. Thanks for exploring unusual subjects!
What a breath of fresh air you are Grant. Thoroughly enjoyed this. Just one question though. What is the advantage of ratcheting friction shifters?
The Acera RD was mentioned near the end. I just put an Altus M310 (the one with oversized pulley wheels) on a 90s 7 speed MTB and it’s also excellent but not sure what max cog size would be (mine is 32) I’m thinking of using on another bike too.
I've been using an Acera for three years and it works great.
Where a big market for "peak mechanical" might actually exist is in Japan itself, as there are many commuter and road bikes used for commuting which have Shimano mechanical group sets, especially in cities like Kyoto.
It's funny because friction shifting is before my time, so I've never used it. But I have the same feeling about setting up and maintaining my Shimano ultegra 11 speed mechanical. It's not difficult but it's a challenge. Using tools to get the indexing perfect is fun and I have purposely avoid electronic groupsets so I can keep my time in the workshop on mechanical
Absolutely loved thise style shifters. Its about money. I have 2 bikes at home that are over 30 years old and still rocking. The components are also old and still working. I high quality bike should last a lifetime, of course they are steel.
This conversation is fascinating because of the depth to which theses esteemed experts pursue the subject. It could redefine the term "Anal". I am a builder, shop owner with ore than 150K miles over the years. I like everything about bicycles...almost.
My question is more of a desire in that I ask for you to please keep keeping on. I we need your passion
I use friction on a time trial bike. Electronic is better, but friction comes 2nd - it's cheap. Index shifting takes too much force and because of where shifters are (front tip of steering) , they affect steering stability when you have to apply a lot of force.
I got here from researching to find a way to use bike parts on a wheelchair, and am seeing the same trend - years ago people were developing lever-propelled chairs, some with several gears, disk brakes, etc, now theyre all gone. Not made anymore, no parts can be found. Its all been replaced by 5 to 7 thousand dollar clip on electric devices to push the chair. And you cant do anything to adjust or repair those, you have to buy a new one when the battery dies.
I want added mechanical advantage, lever arms and some gears and especially brakes for sharp slopes and steering downhill - i have to build it all myself. All the world has to offer is an expensive unrepairable electronic black box!
I'm pretty sure that adjusting the FD is starting to become a forgotten skill. Often it involves some slight bending and a lot of testing. But oh boy when there's no rubbing at any combination, it really feels good (not that it should be used that way, but still). And I'm talking about indexed stuff. I'm also a really big fan of cantilevers. The modulation is just great when done right.
Knives & cameras. Love it
Enjoyed the discussion early on regarding friction shifters and Bridgestone. My 1st new mountain bike was a Bridgestone MB-5 I purchased in 1988. One of the reasons I picked it was because it had friction shifters when none of the other manufacturers I looked at had them. I rode that bike year round in Minnesota for 5 years and it never needed a tune up. If you aren't familiar with working on bikes (which i wasn't at the time) and do not know how to index gears, friction shifters make a lot of sense!
Grant is such a badass.
I'm still riding my 2x10 and I love it. Trying to source shorter cranks and it's a difficult thing. Even Riv discontinued the setup I was looking for. I guess it's time to stock up.
I feel you for short cranks. Definitely had to go import. Sugino, china truyou aliexpress, or alexcycles.
why shorter cranks?
I have an old Sakai but I'm putting together I'm going to be putting friction shifters I have a Fuji that I've been franken steining and again, friction shifters. I've been on your channel for a couple years now and it's always exciting a lot of time to gets two technical but then I go 6 months for example, and I can go back and re-watch and understand better. Love this channel, really love the history lesson in this video
I liked the rachet friction shifters but mounted on the stem. Loved the elliptical chainrings with platform pedals, I used to have, no need for cleats.
I'm so happy we moved on from friction shifters, but I do think choices are good, so sad to see parts are harder to find for people who want choices.
Thank you for letting us learn. I appreciate your reinforcement for my desires. I'm currently acurining and refining my bicycling touring equipment. I in doing so keep the dream alive of long distance travels alive. Bless you for sharing your passion. Ride On.
The internal struggle visible on Russ' face at 58:15 when that comb fiddling sound is happening is palpable. Master Jedi interviewer listening skillz on full display!
My problem with rapid rise is it relies on a powerful spring and/or a clean cable for the downshift. In wetter areas like New England I've preferred downshifting with my own force. I would like to see are ratchet brifters.
I got an Acera from my lbs just to get me going until I found something else, and I works on my wide range 3 x 9 so perfectly that I never think about it anymore.
A classic group set. Huret Jubilee, optional cage configurations. Simplex pushrod front. Suntour Power Ratchet shifters. Cup and cone high flange hubs with a stainless steel option, $350.00usd each. TRP RRL brake levers. Gipiemme Special cranks. Campagnolo earo seatpost. Italian bottom bracket (lefty loosy, righty tightly both sides). Did I miss anything😊
Huret Jubilee with Mafac (?) hubs and a Stronglight 49D chainset, were the thing to have. The hubs had a red oil port cover in the middle. The trick was to use short arm derailleurs in that era, because touring cage versions were invariably sluggish.
Best comparison I can think of is manual focus on a really good camera: Its a deep play for me.
It is for sure. Super fascinating. This is a great great history lesson.
Now, I learned of this word from this channel, and thank you so much for expanding my vocab in this direction, but listening to this conversation I can't help but think of the word, "enshitification". A solid 3x9 HG drive train is pretty hard to beat for simplicity, reliability, range, capability, etc... for by and far the majority of people's needs.
I expected to ff through this but listened to every word. Nice interview.
Silva shifters look great but they are over £200 for a set in the uk. Shimano index shifters that work cost £20
If you appreciate the bicycle in it's simple affordable form i would highly, highly encourage people to start hoarding a bit parts, take advantage of what your environment has to offer, for instance here there are recycling centers where people are dumping great bikes, in the worst case you will find a bike with some good parts on it either way, I've been seeing where things were heading and took action years ago, i quickly built a big pile of good vintage parts and bikes that greatly exceed my own consumption.
My son is howling with laughter listening to the intro & beginning of your banter back & forth at .25x playback speed. It does sound pretty funny. 😂😂😂
All kidding aside, we really enjoyed the interview!
This is great stuff. Thank you Russ and Grant.
For 20 years I've hoped one of the big companies would come out with an upmarket "World Tour" group set, that would satisfy serious tourists, traditional off-roaders, classic bikers and similar folks. They won't because it defeats the thing they are working towards, which is planned obsolescence with increasing regularity. If there are no standard dimensions, you are locked into a system until the company pulls the plug, when nothing including the frame will accommodate last year's stuff.
Ironically, index shifting protocols eliminated the need for it. Jockey wheels hugged the sprockets, derailleur springs offered the right amount of feedback, and overall engineering was very good, enabling friction shifting for anyone. I never understood the pushback on triple chainsets. A third ring and fractionally longer bolts weigh as much as a packet of gum.
Historic video. Fascinating. 😊
I think that grip shift was a success as the click indexing caused more problems then it solved. I'm still a fan of a 3 ring front using grip shift as it has the same ability as old friction shifters for keeping the chain from rubbing from drastic gear use.
i still hate, and i mean hate grip shift but i give credit where it is do.
lol i also use a gripshift for the front on some of the triples i build. really does work great. for the rear though... no thanks.
Preferring friction shifting is like preferring a manual typewriter to a computer. Or...preferring film to digital for photography. I have a nice manual Olympia typewriter from 1972 and I keep it in the closet so I can cover the end of the world when it comes. The complication of the bicycle is unfortunate. Simplicity is one of the bike's most important virtues. I seldom ride a bike without indexing, but a lot of the new stuff is unnecessary.
Nice educational video covering bike part history. Way to go.
It is super fascinating. Hearing the history of the parts are really awesome! Thanks!
Oh yes, I still look at the Shimano Deore rear and front derrailluers on my 1986 Ridgeback 601 in admiration! Chromed and pollished metal, no need for paint, it looks honest, clean and purposeful!
For the shifter position issue all you need to do is swap the matchmaker mounts - left on right side & right on left side. Solves the problem and sets up better for 1 or 2 finger braking.
There's new proprietary parts coming out I still hope to find derierraliers , cables , tires, bearings and tubes for my older bikes from the 2000s era .
31:21 - “Peak Mechanical” sounds like a brand I would buy.
At one time, I was reasonably proficient with friction shifting but when Shimano introduced their own version of indexed shifting I quickly converted and I have never had any desire to go back. I don't want to hope I'll get the next shift right, I want to know I will.
I think we have romanticized the old days and I really don't know why.
I think we over romanticize technology as our savior.
@@PathLessPedaledTV A couple of examples where technology has gone too far: 1) Riding tubeless that creates more problems than it solves, and 2) Disc brakes with limited applicability and are more expensive and more complex to service.
@philhouck3560 It depends. Where I ride there is a profusion of puncture vines...I'd be dealing with flats every ride without tubeless.
Our high tech civilizations has totally lost touch with the value of process, the value of attainment of skill, the value of hard won individual progress. Bicycles for me were always a means of shrugging off the tyranny of technology, a means of relying upon self rather than the other. You see the switch away from this today in photography where the high tech cameras are so good that it can seem like an insufferable inconvenience that you even have to be present when the photo is taken! I worked for years to learn the difficult skill of anticipating the action moment in sports and wildlife photography so as to press the shutter button at the decisive moment. The wildlife camera I use today can shoot 10 frames a second and the cards can only literally thousands of images. So many people just hold the shutter button down and hope for the best. I still try to anticipate the moment and capture it with a single button press. I may not capture quite as many decisive moments the the pray and spray crowd but the ones I do capture are far more rewarding to me. I don't need Shimano to shift the gears on my bike via battery powered electric shifters…thanks anyway but I'd rather do it myself.
I have a bunch of bikes but these days my daily driver is a 1989 Ritchey Ascent Comp I bought recently on eBay. For me bikes haven't really improved since that time. "Shimano has the best engineers but they don't ride bikes," - Tom Ritchey, around 1988.
I'm building a new road bike and my choices to be able to build a modern mechanical bike with rim brakes was EXTREMELY limited. Definitely can't with the big brands, they just won't let you, no choices. With their cabling etc, and disc only, you're really forced into electric hydraulic disc brakes. I don't know why customers want to be told what they can and can't enjoy and how to enjoy the hobby, it confuses me. I think choices is always a good thing. But I guess the "modern" cyclist doesn't want choices and want to be told what they can ride.
Just had a great ride on my Cannondale M800 with Pepperoni fork & Force 40 breaking! Suntour triple crank, Deore XT thumbshifters, Control Tech post & bar ends, Turbo saddle & Hyperlight copper AL bar. Felt freaking awesome after my last ride 20+ yrs ago….I found my gravel bike!
1985 Bridgestone MB-3. Butter. With Suntour Power Ratchet friction shifters.
I have gone back to riding a single speed steel road bike and couldn't be happier. I grew tired of ever changing standards and BS. It's just a bike after all.
This was an excellent listen.
Thank you!
Because globalization decimated manufacturing in North America, it's going to be very expensive to make any parts here again. I think one way we could move forward is to design a fully open-source drivetrain. Anyone can make the components, or parts for them, and you'd be able to mix and match them.
Friction shifting is like driving a stick shift car - it’s more work then automatic/ indexed but it’s more fun!!