are you allowed to install a torrington bearing on the front? if my thinking is correct on the issue, this is what we do in drag racing to solve thrust issues from the transbrake launching.
Yeah, the forces on the crank from the clutch must be creating havoc on those thrust bearings, surely the blocks could be machined to accommodate a torrington race thrust bearing? Or even relocating the clutch to the front of the transaxle? (Unsure if that's even possible, just a wild idea)
I always wonder when the winner flogs the engine for burnouts afterwards is that reducing the engine life. As a team I'd disallow that. Plus keeping practice starts to a minimum. These engines are a step backwards from the 5.0 units. And how do the Super 2/3 guys keep them running with the limited budgets? Thanks gents for another very informative episode.
I think so. But in the same breath he also mentioned smaller main seal bearing, and aluminium block instead of steel block. So it's probably a combination of vibration from the chassis, aluminimum block being maybe a bit more flexible and a smaller seal not able to remain sealed with all the movement. Remembering that the new engines are derived from production engines, so being held for 30 seconds on the start line banging away on the rev limiter with a heavily loaded clutch isn't something a road car does on the regular! So material choices, bearing sizes, etc in the unmodified engine were all chosen to meet the needs of the road car it would have been fitted to.
The car moving off the start line loaded up is a very short period of time considering the flogging the thrust bearings receive during the rest of the race. Sounds like the thrust bearings setup isn't up to the task?
The crankshaft isn't subject to thrust other than off the line. because the engine is on the 7500rpm hardcut with the clutch pushing the crankshaft into the thrust bearings. Other than in the pits and on the line, I wouldn't expect the engine to experience thrust.
Looks like a step backwards all in the name of cost cutting. Wonder what they are really saving when comparing a billet v's unscheduled rebuilds / bearing replacement. I best the billet isn't as expensive as they make out when all is considered. What I would call negative progress !.
@@tomnewham1269 Already snapped a crank, therefore a full rebuild...More to come I would say as don't seem to have an engineered solution yet. KRE has to repair so engine out, freighted to KRE, repaired, return freight, engine back into stock / program....All has a cost which would add up very quickly when compared to a Billet with no such problems, is tried and tested under extreme conditions and has performed faultless for year....Just saying..
@@tonybranson5809 They have been using the engines for nearly 2 years now and only one snapped crank. So no evidence of a load of engine rebuilds. Since this engine program is to last many years and sounds like KRE are on top of the problems, engines being returned mid season will be a thing of the past.
@@gerardcrabb4556 but the old engines didn't last the season, a couple of race weekends is all that they lasted before they got a full rebuild. That would include the crank as well. These engines are half the cost and when the problems are sorted will last a full season.
In that case i wonder if any cranks in LS and coyote powered marc cars have had similar issues with both cranks. Marc gt might not have racked up enough miles to know yet. Also not sure what crank they wacked in the coyote powered ones.
I would imagine WAU will be doing engine program in house. Shell DJR are homologation team for the mustangs and they took over the engine supplier from Herrod preformance
@@Ktmfan450 never said they weren't. The question was who is supplying the toyota engines. As it stands we dont know, I suspect WAU will do internally the same way that DJR is doing all the mustang engines. GM is using a 3rd party KRE
@@Ktmfan450 KRE do the Camero, Herrod did the a Mustang engines but there was a QA issues and the ford teams were unhappy so late last year DJR took over and created their own engine shop to supply the ford engines
That’s a good explanation but it doesn’t quite make it clear that the whole engine architecture is different, Small Block Chev to LTR Chev. I appreciate they pointed out the differences in the crankshafts but everything about the entire motor is different.
Back in the late 70's I destroyed a whole bunch of 253 and 308's. Eventually realised my bearing gaps were a little tight. Failures are the best teacher
Keeping costs down by using cheaper parts more often doesn’t make sense to me that’s all Gen 3 has been since day 1 a big waste of money with crappy quality parts parts that needed upgrading weekend to weekend no testing to check the new parts having to test part upgrades and aero upgrades on race weekends is nonsense how is that fair for anyone Supercars FD up big time they didn’t do nowhere near enough research and testing and development with the prototypes demo laps on various tracks and driving in a straight line on a airport runway isn’t testing..
Do you even know who kenny is? KRE have been building championship winning motors in both supercars and sprintcars for decades!!! I think he knows what hes on about
brad genuinely is such a legend for showing cool shit like this
Great detailed explanation. Thank You Sirs!!
I love nerding out on stuff like this....thanks Brad and BJR :)
That billet crank is a work of art and looks to be lightened quite a bit.
Very interesting Brad/Ken. Thank you.
Great series of videos.
Excellent piece, subbed, should of two years ago, good work BJR and KRE
Thank you Brad - a great insight Cheers
are you allowed to install a torrington bearing on the front? if my thinking is correct on the issue, this is what we do in drag racing to solve thrust issues from the transbrake launching.
Yeah, the forces on the crank from the clutch must be creating havoc on those thrust bearings, surely the blocks could be machined to accommodate a torrington race thrust bearing? Or even relocating the clutch to the front of the transaxle? (Unsure if that's even possible, just a wild idea)
Nice work Brad & Kenny
thanks for the insights
What about adding a torington bearing to the crank to take the load off ? Cheers Brad 🍻
Good one Brad very interesting
Keeping costs down by ensuring you need regular rebuilds😂
The engines are not being fully rebuilt. Only the sump is removed and the bearings replaced. All up it would be roughly a 2 hr job.
Can’t you use a Torrington race bearing on the front of the crank against the block and main cap ?
Love to know how much cheaper this new car/engine combo is and how much the teams are saving
I always wonder when the winner flogs the engine for burnouts afterwards is that reducing the engine life. As a team I'd disallow that. Plus keeping practice starts to a minimum. These engines are a step backwards from the 5.0 units. And how do the Super 2/3 guys keep them running with the limited budgets? Thanks gents for another very informative episode.
They do if they don't change for fresh engine...
Great Video.... The OPTION may be to go to a Roller Thrust Bearing at #1 Main Bearing.. This is a BOOSTED Motor Option, Good for 5000 HP...
The fix is a 90s Percons ceramic bearing kit , ak, the Castrol Bathurst car
awesome
Needle roller thrust bearing?
did he just say that the interaction of chassis and engine block was a contributing factor to crankshaft main bearing failure?
I think so. But in the same breath he also mentioned smaller main seal bearing, and aluminium block instead of steel block. So it's probably a combination of vibration from the chassis, aluminimum block being maybe a bit more flexible and a smaller seal not able to remain sealed with all the movement. Remembering that the new engines are derived from production engines, so being held for 30 seconds on the start line banging away on the rev limiter with a heavily loaded clutch isn't something a road car does on the regular! So material choices, bearing sizes, etc in the unmodified engine were all chosen to meet the needs of the road car it would have been fitted to.
What's an easy way to tell if you have a blown head gasket?
Just look for lipstick marks on your crank shaft.
stuff the cost cutting. Either put the more expensive 10k crank in or use more engines.
Who pays for that ?
I’d have thought the fix would be straightforward with either more oil reliefs or with minimal machining using Torrington bearings.
The car moving off the start line loaded up is a very short period of time considering the flogging the thrust bearings receive during the rest of the race. Sounds like the thrust bearings setup isn't up to the task?
The crankshaft isn't subject to thrust other than off the line. because the engine is on the 7500rpm hardcut with the clutch pushing the crankshaft into the thrust bearings. Other than in the pits and on the line, I wouldn't expect the engine to experience thrust.
@The_Evil_Monkey_93 Thanks for your explanation ,very interesting.
Looks like a step backwards all in the name of cost cutting. Wonder what they are really saving when comparing a billet v's unscheduled rebuilds / bearing replacement. I best the billet isn't as expensive as they make out when all is considered. What I would call negative progress !.
The engines are not being rebuilt. The sump is removed and the thrust bearings are then replaced. All up probably 2 hr job at the most.
Old engines were 120K even if they life a crank to a season it's cheaper...
@@tomnewham1269 Already snapped a crank, therefore a full rebuild...More to come I would say as don't seem to have an engineered solution yet. KRE has to repair so engine out, freighted to KRE, repaired, return freight, engine back into stock / program....All has a cost which would add up very quickly when compared to a Billet with no such problems, is tried and tested under extreme conditions and has performed faultless for year....Just saying..
@@tonybranson5809 They have been using the engines for nearly 2 years now and only one snapped crank. So no evidence of a load of engine rebuilds. Since this engine program is to last many years and sounds like KRE are on top of the problems, engines being returned mid season will be a thing of the past.
@@gerardcrabb4556 but the old engines didn't last the season, a couple of race weekends is all that they lasted before they got a full rebuild. That would include the crank as well. These engines are half the cost and when the problems are sorted will last a full season.
Rolling starts would fix the issue...??
Just like speedway,,,,NO!
Agree. Works beautifully in GT racing and those engines are bespoke units.
@@grantleyhugheswhy do you say GT engines are bespoke units? Nearly universally they’re just plucked straight from their road car equivalents
@@Davidsmyth55 These road cars are pretty special builds. I own one. Try paying for a refresh or rebuild.
In that case i wonder if any cranks in LS and coyote powered marc cars have had similar issues with both cranks.
Marc gt might not have racked up enough miles to know yet.
Also not sure what crank they wacked in the coyote powered ones.
Will KRE be doing the Toyota Supra 5.4l v8 for 2026?
I would imagine WAU will be doing engine program in house. Shell DJR are homologation team for the mustangs and they took over the engine supplier from Herrod preformance
@@richardthomson4693 Engines have to be of equal performance across the two (now three) manufacturers
@@Ktmfan450 never said they weren't. The question was who is supplying the toyota engines. As it stands we dont know, I suspect WAU will do internally the same way that DJR is doing all the mustang engines. GM is using a 3rd party KRE
@@richardthomson4693 I thought kre was doing both engines
Thanks I never knew
@@Ktmfan450 KRE do the Camero, Herrod did the a Mustang engines but there was a QA issues and the ford teams were unhappy so late last year DJR took over and created their own engine shop to supply the ford engines
That’s a good explanation but it doesn’t quite make it clear that the whole engine architecture is different, Small Block Chev to LTR Chev. I appreciate they pointed out the differences in the crankshafts but everything about the entire motor is different.
Camaro uses LTR block not LS.
@@stevethomas1301 I’d forgotten that detail, but still quite different to the SB architecture.
can you use less aggressive clutches? surely a lightly sprung clutch would save them
Which would then slip, off the line
Back in the late 70's I destroyed a whole bunch of 253 and 308's. Eventually realised my bearing gaps were a little tight. Failures are the best teacher
No, setting the tolerance right is the best teacher.
@@danielbroughton7949 Hey, I was 18. Did not know anything although I thought I did
Did your machine shop stuff up by machining the journals too big or did you just buy the wrong bearings?
@@timjohnun4297 Bought the wrong bearings
@@timjohnun4297 Also took me forever to know ring gaps
Tell the drivers to not sit on the limiter for 5 minutes before the start
Keeping costs down by using cheaper parts more often doesn’t make sense to me that’s all Gen 3 has been since day 1 a big waste of money with crappy quality parts parts that needed upgrading weekend to weekend no testing to check the new parts having to test part upgrades and aero upgrades on race weekends is nonsense how is that fair for anyone Supercars FD up big time they didn’t do nowhere near enough research and testing and development with the prototypes demo laps on various tracks and driving in a straight line on a airport runway isn’t testing..
whats the end float... i think this guy is talking a lot of shit. Nascar never brake cranks
Well they don't do standing starts in NASCAR.
@@helixworldbillet cranks aren't stronger
Do you even know who kenny is? KRE have been building championship winning motors in both supercars and sprintcars for decades!!! I think he knows what hes on about
NASCAR don't use LT blocks, either. I think it may be you who is talking a lot of shit....