It’s amazing that’s there still “pros” teaching the old laws of ball flight on UA-cam and in person. It’s been well over a decade we’ve known the “new laws”.
Recently watched a video of Mr. Langer on how to hit fades and draw. This ball flight lesson seems to support that technique. I tried it and it works for me well. I am a 16 handicap and I appreciate all your instructions!
for myself personally the shape of my shot is controlled by the release not the set up. Sometimes I change my footing and grip for better balance and control, but ultimately the 3 different releases control the direction the balls takes.
Semantics. I've been curving shots for 30 years and both do the same thing. The differential between face and path create the curvature. That's all that's important.
Help. A slice is over the top. Does this mean too much out to in path. What happens if u want to hit a fade. Do you still swing over the top a little. How do u do that? Thanks Stephen
Good question, the ball curves based on the relationship between the face and the path. If you want to hit a fade the face needs to be slightly open to the path. Check out our Science of the Slice at www.usgolftv.com for more details. Hope that helps!
this is not controversial at all. Physicists have understood this of course, but the golf community has not understood it and therefore taught it wrong for 130 years.. How would they know about elastic vs inelastic collisions? Trackman helped the golfing community understand it but you don't need it if you understand the physics of club path vs club face orientation for a collision that is almost but not quite elastic. I told my dad this in 1966 as a ten year old child. He said: "No, GOLF DIGEST says that the initial direction depends on the swing path". When I got my physics degree from MIT, I asked him if he remembered our conversation. He said: "I wish I had listened to you.."
I now know why my fade occasionally goes far left and my attempts at a draw go straight right 5 degrees or so. I was using the old school approach. Thanx
Can you give an example of how the outcome from the new rules and outcome with the old rules differs. Given that the path and face are the same. IE slight open face and straight club pace. Just so I can get my head around it.
old way: slice. (starts straight, curves strongly right) old theory: slice is caused by a square club path which causes the ball to start straight, with a club face pointed right which causes a curve right. correction: old way: work on direction of the club face more left at impact with the same club path. in reality, because it is really the club path that is the problem, this corrects towards a pull slice/fade: starts left, curves right); it may put you in the fairway, but short, and can accentuate the slice. new way: slice (starts straight, curves strongly right) new theory: slice is caused by an outside-in club path which causes the ball to spin clockwise causing a curve right: if the club face is square at impact, the ball starts straight, but curves right. correction, new way: work on club path to square at impact, while keeping face angle square, decreasing side spin and thus, curve. many factors influence the face angle and club path at impact, and the many corrections golfers use to try to get the ball to go where they want it to go, including grip, stance, ball position, swing plane, etc. can be very hard to identify and isolate. erroneous theories about what influences the flight of the ball make the problem worse, by suggesting corrections that don't correct at best, and make the problem greater, at worst.
100% correct. Much of our golf instruction has come from what good/great players *thought* they were doing, and they passed it on. This also explains the morass of contradictory advice from great players over time. Technology now has removed the guesswork and upended some old ideas, such as this.
You misunderstand. What players do, and their explanations for it, are separate matters. Lee Trevino's advice to "hit down on the ball" works because when he does it, he changes the angle of attack. Lee's explanation that the ball "climbs up the grooves" is incorrect.
Unfortunately, 'common sense' isn't much help here. The 'electronic crap' you speak of doesn't have opinions or attitude, it simply tells us what's happening during the golf swing and impact. When you say 'open' and 'closed', relative to what? No disrespect, but you're way, way behind the curve on this.
Yeah, I trust science over observation alone, the latter is only the beginning of rational enquiry. I've been playing golf for 40 years+, so there's a good chance your 'son' is way off cue.
Why are you so averse to technology? Why do you believe your observations of what happens in microseconds is better than the established science of Trackman etc? Launch monitors tell us what is happening and why, you seem to be confusing this with 'how' it happens.
Todd this was absolutely fantastic. Most golfers have no idea of this knowledge and I would bet a lot of pros don’t know either. The new technology doesn’t lie.
I love this, I want to pose a hypothesis. The faster the swing the closer to 50/50 the path/face is to affecting the ball's take off direction. Is that right? I'd love to be pointed in the direction of some research that either confirms or refutes my guess.
In general, yes, more speed creates more curve...there is solid evidence that the ball starts primarily 70-90% based on the face depending on the club...curve is the difference between face and path...good post!
How is a good way after I determine I want to hit a draw, to set swing path to the right but the face not on the target line or on the swing path? How is an easy way to set the face Btwn the two?
great video I hit a straight it seems to follow the target line then starts to move to the right, is this a straight pull hook? if so how do you fix it, ball contact on face of club is fairly central. I did change by grip a bit but lost distance. can you do a video on fixing this?
if you are right-handed (stand to the left of the ball looking towards the target at address): if it starts straight and drifts right, at impact the face of your club was square toward the target, but your club path was outside in: that put spin on the ball causing it to curve right. the amount of the curve right depends on how much outside in your path was; the more outside in, the greater the curve. remember that in wet conditions, or when you are in the rough, you can't get as much spin on the ball; less spin, less curve. by the way, I think your flight path would be called a fade, or if severe, a slice. A pull-hook would start left (club face pointing left at impact = pull), and curve left (club path strongly inside out at impact = hook).
M M...you are describing a pull fade...a ball that starts left and works to the right is the result of a closed face combined with a path that is even more closed (left) then the face...here is a good video with some ideas on how to fix your question ua-cam.com/video/zX783bx9aso/v-deo.html
thanks for this clear and most helpful clip I was strugling a lot, as my golf-pro tried to teach me to adjust my path, because my aim was good but my ball flight-direction was 90% of the times straight to the left. My body simply can't change path easily, but now I adjust my aim with the clubface changing a bit to the right, which my golfpro didn't approve ;-) and all balls go most of the times straight to the target. when I change the club face more to the right to get a draw, a slice is more occuring. I don't really need a draw for the moment, more or less straight is something I struggled to get long time and I now have that. Strange is I felt all the time that I was doing it the opposite way, but who am I to say no to a golf-pro ;-) Therefor : many thanks for this clip many times.
In your animation what would happen if the club path was 4 degrees left? Wouldn’t the ball start left and slice back considering their is 6 degrees difference between face/path ratio? It is all relative to your swing path.
Timothy Butterworth good question! The ball is going to basically start based on where the face is pointing at impact. It will then curve based on the relationship between the path and the face. If the face is right if the path, the ball will work right, if it is left of the path it will work left. This is assuming a center strike. Hope that helps. 👊
As a thirty five year accomplished player, I switched to the new ball flight laws about five years ago and noticed a massive difference in accuracy in my shots... any questionable adjustments using the older method are now gone with the new and more accurate system. You are correct; the older method was effective, but wrong.
Can you give an example of how the outcome from the new rules and outcome with the old rules differs. Given that the path and face are the same. IE slight open face and straight club pace. Just so I can get my head around it.
Dave, It's easier demonstrated than written about, but I'll give it a try and keep it as simple as possible. With the old system, we were always taught to aim the club face at our target and aim our feet at where we wanted the ball to start in relation to our intended line. This system worked, but only in the fact that the ball would curve in the wanted direction. Hitting the target wasn't always the result which would lead to making adjustments to club face and swing path. In other words, in wasn't very effective. With the "new" ball flight laws, we now know that club face doesn't determine where the ball ends up, but in fact determines where the ball "generally" starts. (Other factors such as swing path and ball position may slightly alter direction.) Knowing that we can determine the starting point of the ball flight makes working the ball easier as we can determine the amount of curve based on our feet set up and swing path. To your example above I will give you this scenario in hopes that it will help you understand it more easily: If you are in the middle of the fairway hitting an approach to the green with a pin tucked five yards right of center. Wanting to hit a soft fade into the green as a right handed player, you would simply aim the club face at the middle of the green and aim your feet five yards left of your club face aim point. Swing along your feet line. The ball will start at the center of the green and simply fade the five yards right towards the pin assuming you hit the proper club. Same scenario but to the extreme: You are in the right tree line and now need to hit a massive slice to reach the green. Simply aim your club face outside the treeline and your feet as far left to correspond to the amount you need the ball to slice. In this case you very likely are aiming your feet at the opposite tree line...the key here is to trust your set up and make a committed swing along your feet line with the open club face. The ball will move hard, left to right. Again, it is very important to trust your set up and swing along your feet line. The opposite is true to hit a draw or a hook when needed. With some practice, I think you'll find that working the ball in this manner will be a big help you your game. I know it has been for me. Good luck to you and all the best. RC
I would suggest looking at the data being generated on a Foresight GC2/HMT or Quad. Foresight gives TRUE club head, path, and lie angle at impact. Ball curvature is caused by spin on a non vertical axis. That spin is caused by the face being either open or closed to the return path of the club. Face angle at impact can also be skewed right or left by returning the club in a toe down/toe up position. Most golfers return the club toed down. This is an open club face in varying degrees dependent on the static loft of the club. High lofted clubs skew the face more. A golfer can return a club to the ball on a zero path (parallel to the target line) with a square club face (leading edge of the club is perpendicular to the target line) and if the club is in a toe down position, to ball will start right of the target and curve right of its original starting line. Path, face angle, and lie angle all have to be understood equally.
So, if I understand it correctly: Straight Pull = Face is square to swing path, but close to target Straight Push = Face is square to swing path, but open to target Push Slice = Face is open to target & swing path / swing path could be slightly closed or open to target Pull Hook = Face is close to target & swing path / swing path could be slightly closed or open to target Draw = Face is open to target but close to swing path / swing path is open to target Fade = Face is close to target but open to swing path / swing path is close to target
Christian...good stuff! this sounds correct...assuming a centered strike...the curve of the ball is a result of the relationship between the face and the path.....if the face is open to the path, the ball will fade...if the face is closed to the path, the ball will draw...the target line really has nothing to do with it other then to be a point at which we reference where the golfer may want the ball to finish...great comment...thanks for watching!
If you hit a driver starting right and it goes straight to the right or turns slightly more right, does that mean your path is inside out and to correct for a draw would you then want to swing outside in?
r handed: your shot is a push (straight right: club face pointed right at impact but square club path) or a push fade (club face pointed right at impact, slight outside in club path). to correct, you need to swing square and, at impact, have the face also square. if you swing outside in, you will make the problem worse, because if the club path is outside in, that promotes a clockwise ball rotation, which makes the ball curve more right. concentrate on an inside out club path: as the club head approaches the ball, it is on your side of the target line, after impact, you see it on the other side of the target line.
this is interesting but i feel like a combo of the two is whats really happening. its just face angle compared to path. if you swing inside to out - your path is right of square, so the ball should start right. if you want to hit a draw with that path, your face needs to be less open than the path. same thing for a fade but reversed. what I think this fails to explain is that the club faced could be closed relative to 0 degrees. so if your plane was totally neutral, your face could be inside of that (ie facing left). you could have the face at a negative angle, and still start the ball right. so i dont really know exactly how accurate this is. it really all comes down to face relative to path. not one or the other in a vacuum is going to tell you what happens and why it happened
Great video and tbh makes perfect sense to me for eg when I play my wedges I open the face a little for eg say to the right of the pin but my swing path is across my feet to the left of target the ball goes to the right and follows the club face so this defo makes sense in the bigger picture and will defo be playing around it when I go out later with the longer clubs for a practice 👍
The new ones wrong too. It gives a rough summary and is correct to an extent. But there is a leverage factor there’s a part that’s missing. It’s rate of closure or opening at the point of contact. Ok think of this, hitting a draw basically is 3 lines, path, target, and face. Basically you’re told if you have a face that’s closed to path but open to target your ball will start and come back to the target. You can strike the ball face can match same exact spot but have 2 different flights. That’s because the rate of closure or opening at impact causes the spin. Like throwing a curve in baseball. The arm path does start the ball the rate at which your fingers are snapping 12/6, 1/7, 2/8 is how much that ball will curve. That’s why you’re told you need to release to hit a draw or told to hold the face to hit a fade. This is wrong too is all I’m saying.
good explanation. you very very nearly said what was needed to clear up all the confusion and arguments on these comments boards. So here it is, the vital piece that everyone fails to mention (and if you look closely it is right there in the trackman data): WHERE THE BALL STARTS IS ROUGHLY 85% FACE AND ALSO ROUGHLY 15% PATH. this is due to how the club interacts with the ball. it grips it slightly. I would confidently guess that this is why this guy said "THE MAJORITY" and did not want to get into the exact numbers. So to an extent BOTH theories/laws are correct, it is just a matter of the extent to which each is correct. This is why this is so confusing, because to an exquisite ball striker it would appear that it is possible to hit these shots using both methods. and in fact to an extent it is!! it is just less confusing to instructors and students to teach it as 'cluface sends it, swingpath bends it' perfectgolfswingreview.net/ballflight.htm
My golf coach has the “new” ball flight laws knowledge. I’ve been hitting the ball the best I have hit in my life and now I feel more knowledgeable on how club path and club face alignments work. My old coaches practiced the old method and it made me very inconsistent. The “new” laws work. Note a neutral path is a slight in to in path.
American Lefty this is a fantastic story and it sounds like you have a top notch coach...this is great news! Finding a good coach who can truly help you is the first step to improving....congrats and thanks for sharing your story. 👊
US GOLF TV also my golf coach has been teaching for 4 decades now and I believe he used to do both the old method and new method and then it would be more of a student preference but now he is more strict on the new method, which is good. He also preaches and tilted circle swing going around us in an in to in path to promote a straight shot. To prove it’s in to in, whenever the trackman or flightscope reads 0.0 it was an in to in swing path according to high speed photographic evidence and slow motion video. I even hit a 0.1 degree of in to out when I felt like I was cutting the ball. Technology really fixed the real mechanics of the golf swingZ
Hence why we always said golf is a game of opposites. In my opinion (no expert) Trackman is great for us golfers who can easily hit draws and fades . We can use this information and talk about what is really happening. As a student i like knowing this information but I may also want to talk about what I’m feeling is happening. What ever gets the best out of me. Which is why I suppose pros change instructors. Because Trackman alone isn’t going to fix it .
yes. and what puts spin on the ball is path of the club head: inside out puts spin on the ball which causes the ball to curve right. outside in puts spin on the ball which causes the ball to curve right. That's why slicers have paths that are outside in (if you have an alignment rod, the path is from outside the rod, through the ball, then inside the rod)
Self Defense and Common Sense.......firstly I am surprised it took golf instructors so long to figure out what engineers would know after their first year at University.....what is said in this video is generally correct. As a footnote there is a more complicated interdependence between club face and swing path but as noted this probably has little value in golf instruction. However, as a Golf Club Design engineer it would be highly relevant. Now...your comment on club head speed is only relevant in that it amplifies what the video points out, it does not negate the points noted in the video. As said in other comments to you..... what works for you and gets results is important and relevant to you - however, science is based on verifiable and measurable fact and to a simple extent that is what this video does....once again I can not fathom how the golf world swallowed so much drivel for so long on such simple laws of physics!
@@tonycarter6321 Incorrect. It is the tilt in spin axis to the left or right that causes the curve as the ball moves through the air. The ball has backspin only
@@USGOLFTVshow Have read that with wedges that the 85/15 drops to as low as 55/45. Have been fiddling with making a spreadsheet of the FTT and Path combos that yield the nine ball flights. Some seriously counterintuitive stuff in there. 🙂 A nice thing about our Mevo+ "Pro Package" lanai setup is that the face and path numbers work just fine with the "foam" golf balls such "Almost Golf Balls". We now suddenly know that it's primarily our FTT's that we want to gain control of - and this kind of feedback has been *huge* for that purpose. Getting there. . .
@@USGOLFTVshow - I really struggled to correct my shot with the old ideas. As soon as I read what the actual physics was that governed ball motion, it was easy to dial in my shot. You can't argue with physics.
I tend to agree because in Nicklaus" Golf My Way, he explains this. If the face is moving across the ball, it imparts the spin. And it spins the ball in the opposite direction of the horinzontal mvmt of the face.
The only law is physics. Closed to path curves left, open to path curves right. The only thing trackman proved is that pros minupulate the path instead of their alignment.
shawn....sorry you do not take any info from the video....we do our best to provide solid information that can help all golfers....in order to do this it takes time to walk through the process...thanks for watching
Fantastic. The best description of ball flight laws I have ever seen or heard. Thank you.
It’s amazing that’s there still “pros” teaching the old laws of ball flight on UA-cam and in person. It’s been well over a decade we’ve known the “new laws”.
Truth...
Recently watched a video of Mr. Langer on how to hit fades and draw. This ball flight lesson seems to support that technique. I tried it and it works for me well. I am a 16 handicap and I appreciate all your instructions!
Larry...if we are in the same category as Mr. Langer...we will take it! Thanks for watching
for myself personally the shape of my shot is controlled by the release not the set up. Sometimes I change my footing and grip for better balance and control, but ultimately the 3 different releases control the direction the balls takes.
Agreed...the ball has no idea what path is. The ball only knows what the face tells it what to do and that all depends on how it's released
Semantics. I've been curving shots for 30 years and both do the same thing. The differential between face and path create the curvature. That's all that's important.
Help.
A slice is over the top. Does this mean too much out to in path.
What happens if u want to hit a fade. Do you still swing over the top a little. How do u do that?
Thanks
Stephen
Good question, the ball curves based on the relationship between the face and the path. If you want to hit a fade the face needs to be slightly open to the path. Check out our Science of the Slice at www.usgolftv.com for more details. Hope that helps!
Finally got this useful info. Thanks . from Kuala Lumpur
Our pleasure!
this is not controversial at all. Physicists have understood this of course, but the golf community has not understood it and therefore taught it wrong for 130 years.. How would they know about elastic vs inelastic collisions? Trackman helped the golfing community understand it but you don't need it if you understand the physics of club path vs club face orientation for a collision that is almost but not quite elastic. I told my dad this in 1966 as a ten year old child. He said: "No, GOLF DIGEST says that the initial direction depends on the swing path". When I got my physics degree from MIT, I asked him if he remembered our conversation. He said: "I wish I had listened to you.."
Reid Sheftall Wow...great post! This is a great story you shared....yes the golf industry is learning. Thanks for the post!
I now know why my fade occasionally goes far left and my attempts at a draw go straight right 5 degrees or so. I was using the old school approach. Thanx
No more old school for you....awesome! What other topics would you like to see us cover?
Can you give an example of how the outcome from the new rules and outcome with the old rules differs. Given that the path and face are the same. IE slight open face and straight club pace. Just so I can get my head around it.
old way: slice. (starts straight, curves strongly right)
old theory: slice is caused by a square club path which causes the ball to start straight, with a club face pointed right which causes a curve right.
correction: old way: work on direction of the club face more left at impact with the same club path. in reality, because it is really the club path that is the problem, this corrects towards a pull slice/fade: starts left, curves right); it may put you in the fairway, but short, and can accentuate the slice.
new way: slice (starts straight, curves strongly right)
new theory: slice is caused by an outside-in club path which causes the ball to spin clockwise causing a curve right: if the club face is square at impact, the ball starts straight, but curves right.
correction, new way: work on club path to square at impact, while keeping face angle square, decreasing side spin and thus, curve.
many factors influence the face angle and club path at impact, and the many corrections golfers use to try to get the ball to go where they want it to go, including grip, stance, ball position, swing plane, etc. can be very hard to identify and isolate.
erroneous theories about what influences the flight of the ball make the problem worse, by suggesting corrections that don't correct at best, and make the problem greater, at worst.
100% correct. Much of our golf instruction has come from what good/great players *thought* they were doing, and they passed it on. This also explains the morass of contradictory advice from great players over time. Technology now has removed the guesswork and upended some old ideas, such as this.
You misunderstand. What players do, and their explanations for it, are separate matters. Lee Trevino's advice to "hit down on the ball" works because when he does it, he changes the angle of attack. Lee's explanation that the ball "climbs up the grooves" is incorrect.
Unfortunately, 'common sense' isn't much help here. The 'electronic crap' you speak of doesn't have opinions or attitude, it simply tells us what's happening during the golf swing and impact. When you say 'open' and 'closed', relative to what? No disrespect, but you're way, way behind the curve on this.
Yeah, I trust science over observation alone, the latter is only the beginning of rational enquiry. I've been playing golf for 40 years+, so there's a good chance your 'son' is way off cue.
Why are you so averse to technology? Why do you believe your observations of what happens in microseconds is better than the established science of Trackman etc? Launch monitors tell us what is happening and why, you seem to be confusing this with 'how' it happens.
You miss the point entirely, thanks for playing, enjoy your golf.
Todd this was absolutely fantastic. Most golfers have no idea of this knowledge and I would bet a lot of pros don’t know either. The new technology doesn’t lie.
Thanks Jon! Understanding cause and effect is KEY to developing a path towards improving. 👊
4:00 - 7:00 gave me all the swing thoughts I needed. Range session was looking good. Thanks Todd
R W fantastic!! Always fun to see some progress for our fellow golfers. Thanks for posting and taking time...much appreciate! 👊
I love this, I want to pose a hypothesis. The faster the swing the closer to 50/50 the path/face is to affecting the ball's take off direction. Is that right? I'd love to be pointed in the direction of some research that either confirms or refutes my guess.
In general, yes, more speed creates more curve...there is solid evidence that the ball starts primarily 70-90% based on the face depending on the club...curve is the difference between face and path...good post!
How is a good way after I determine I want to hit a draw, to set swing path to the right but the face not on the target line or on the swing path? How is an easy way to set the face Btwn the two?
great video I hit a straight it seems to follow the target line then starts to move to the right, is this a straight pull hook? if so how do you fix it, ball contact on face of club is fairly central. I did change by grip a bit but lost distance. can you do a video on fixing this?
if you are right-handed (stand to the left of the ball looking towards the target at address): if it starts straight and drifts right, at impact the face of your club was square toward the target, but your club path was outside in: that put spin on the ball causing it to curve right. the amount of the curve right depends on how much outside in your path was; the more outside in, the greater the curve. remember that in wet conditions, or when you are in the rough, you can't get as much spin on the ball; less spin, less curve.
by the way, I think your flight path would be called a fade, or if severe, a slice.
A pull-hook would start left (club face pointing left at impact = pull), and curve left (club path strongly inside out at impact = hook).
M M...you are describing a pull fade...a ball that starts left and works to the right is the result of a closed face combined with a path that is even more closed (left) then the face...here is a good video with some ideas on how to fix your question ua-cam.com/video/zX783bx9aso/v-deo.html
thanks for this clear and most helpful clip
I was strugling a lot, as my golf-pro tried to teach me to adjust my path, because my aim was good but my ball flight-direction was 90% of the times straight to the left. My body simply can't change path easily, but now I adjust my aim with the clubface changing a bit to the right, which my golfpro didn't approve ;-) and all balls go most of the times straight to the target. when I change the club face more to the right to get a draw, a slice is more occuring. I don't really need a draw for the moment, more or less straight is something I struggled to get long time and I now have that.
Strange is I felt all the time that I was doing it the opposite way, but who am I to say no to a golf-pro ;-)
Therefor : many thanks for this clip many times.
In your animation what would happen if the club path was 4 degrees left? Wouldn’t the ball start left and slice back considering their is 6 degrees difference between face/path ratio? It is all relative to your swing path.
Timothy Butterworth good question! The ball is going to basically start based on where the face is pointing at impact. It will then curve based on the relationship between the path and the face. If the face is right if the path, the ball will work right, if it is left of the path it will work left. This is assuming a center strike. Hope that helps. 👊
As a thirty five year accomplished player, I switched to the new ball flight laws about five years ago and noticed a massive difference in accuracy in my shots... any questionable adjustments using the older method are now gone with the new and more accurate system. You are correct; the older method was effective, but wrong.
Can you give an example of how the outcome from the new rules and outcome with the old rules differs. Given that the path and face are the same. IE slight open face and straight club pace. Just so I can get my head around it.
Dave,
It's easier demonstrated than written about, but I'll give it a try and keep it as simple as possible.
With the old system, we were always taught to aim the club face at our target and aim our feet at where we wanted the ball to start in relation to our intended line. This system worked, but only in the fact that the ball would curve in the wanted direction. Hitting the target wasn't always the result which would lead to making adjustments to club face and swing path. In other words, in wasn't very effective.
With the "new" ball flight laws, we now know that club face doesn't determine where the ball ends up, but in fact determines where the ball "generally" starts. (Other factors such as swing path and ball position may slightly alter direction.)
Knowing that we can determine the starting point of the ball flight makes working the ball easier as we can determine the amount of curve based on our feet set up and swing path.
To your example above I will give you this scenario in hopes that it will help you understand it more easily:
If you are in the middle of the fairway hitting an approach to the green with a pin tucked five yards right of center. Wanting to hit a soft fade into the green as a right handed player, you would simply aim the club face at the middle of the green and aim your feet five yards left of your club face aim point. Swing along your feet line. The ball will start at the center of the green and simply fade the five yards right towards the pin assuming you hit the proper club.
Same scenario but to the extreme: You are in the right tree line and now need to hit a massive slice to reach the green. Simply aim your club face outside the treeline and your feet as far left to correspond to the amount you need the ball to slice. In this case you very likely are aiming your feet at the opposite tree line...the key here is to trust your set up and make a committed swing along your feet line with the open club face. The ball will move hard, left to right. Again, it is very important to trust your set up and swing along your feet line.
The opposite is true to hit a draw or a hook when needed.
With some practice, I think you'll find that working the ball in this manner will be a big help you your game. I know it has been for me.
Good luck to you and all the best.
RC
cheers very helpful. will give it a go.
I would suggest looking at the data being generated on a Foresight GC2/HMT or Quad. Foresight gives TRUE club head, path, and lie angle at impact. Ball curvature is caused by spin on a non vertical axis. That spin is caused by the face being either open or closed to the return path of the club. Face angle at impact can also be skewed right or left by returning the club in a toe down/toe up position. Most golfers return the club toed down. This is an open club face in varying degrees dependent on the static loft of the club. High lofted clubs skew the face more. A golfer can return a club to the ball on a zero path (parallel to the target line) with a square club face (leading edge of the club is perpendicular to the target line) and if the club is in a toe down position, to ball will start right of the target and curve right of its original starting line. Path, face angle, and lie angle all have to be understood equally.
So, if I understand it correctly:
Straight Pull = Face is square to swing path, but close to target
Straight Push = Face is square to swing path, but open to target
Push Slice = Face is open to target & swing path / swing path could be slightly closed or open to target
Pull Hook = Face is close to target & swing path / swing path could be slightly closed or open to target
Draw = Face is open to target but close to swing path / swing path is open to target
Fade = Face is close to target but open to swing path / swing path is close to target
Christian...good stuff! this sounds correct...assuming a centered strike...the curve of the ball is a result of the relationship between the face and the path.....if the face is open to the path, the ball will fade...if the face is closed to the path, the ball will draw...the target line really has nothing to do with it other then to be a point at which we reference where the golfer may want the ball to finish...great comment...thanks for watching!
If you hit a driver starting right and it goes straight to the right or turns slightly more right, does that mean your path is inside out and to correct for a draw would you then want to swing outside in?
r handed: your shot is a push (straight right: club face pointed right at impact but square club path) or a push fade (club face pointed right at impact, slight outside in club path).
to correct, you need to swing square and, at impact, have the face also square. if you swing outside in, you will make the problem worse, because if the club path is outside in, that promotes a clockwise ball rotation, which makes the ball curve more right.
concentrate on an inside out club path: as the club head approaches the ball, it is on your side of the target line, after impact, you see it on the other side of the target line.
this is interesting but i feel like a combo of the two is whats really happening. its just face angle compared to path. if you swing inside to out - your path is right of square, so the ball should start right. if you want to hit a draw with that path, your face needs to be less open than the path. same thing for a fade but reversed.
what I think this fails to explain is that the club faced could be closed relative to 0 degrees. so if your plane was totally neutral, your face could be inside of that (ie facing left). you could have the face at a negative angle, and still start the ball right. so i dont really know exactly how accurate this is.
it really all comes down to face relative to path. not one or the other in a vacuum is going to tell you what happens and why it happened
Great video and tbh makes perfect sense to me for eg when I play my wedges I open the face a little for eg say to the right of the pin but my swing path is across my feet to the left of target the ball goes to the right and follows the club face so this defo makes sense in the bigger picture and will defo be playing around it when I go out later with the longer clubs for a practice 👍
The new ones wrong too. It gives a rough summary and is correct to an extent. But there is a leverage factor there’s a part that’s missing. It’s rate of closure or opening at the point of contact. Ok think of this, hitting a draw basically is 3 lines, path, target, and face. Basically you’re told if you have a face that’s closed to path but open to target your ball will start and come back to the target. You can strike the ball face can match same exact spot but have 2 different flights. That’s because the rate of closure or opening at impact causes the spin. Like throwing a curve in baseball. The arm path does start the ball the rate at which your fingers are snapping 12/6, 1/7, 2/8 is how much that ball will curve. That’s why you’re told you need to release to hit a draw or told to hold the face to hit a fade. This is wrong too is all I’m saying.
good explanation. you very very nearly said what was needed to clear up all the confusion and arguments on these comments boards. So here it is, the vital piece that everyone fails to mention (and if you look closely it is right there in the trackman data): WHERE THE BALL STARTS IS ROUGHLY 85% FACE AND ALSO ROUGHLY 15% PATH. this is due to how the club interacts with the ball. it grips it slightly. I would confidently guess that this is why this guy said "THE MAJORITY" and did not want to get into the exact numbers. So to an extent BOTH theories/laws are correct, it is just a matter of the extent to which each is correct. This is why this is so confusing, because to an exquisite ball striker it would appear that it is possible to hit these shots using both methods. and in fact to an extent it is!! it is just less confusing to instructors and students to teach it as 'cluface sends it, swingpath bends it' perfectgolfswingreview.net/ballflight.htm
emory...great post...thanks for adding to the conversation!
So a push slice is actually caused by club face open but an out to in path?
dana vest you got it. Possible to hit a push slice of the face is open to the path even if the path is inside to out. Make sense? Good question!
My golf coach has the “new” ball flight laws knowledge. I’ve been hitting the ball the best I have hit in my life and now I feel more knowledgeable on how club path and club face alignments work. My old coaches practiced the old method and it made me very inconsistent. The “new” laws work. Note a neutral path is a slight in to in path.
American Lefty this is a fantastic story and it sounds like you have a top notch coach...this is great news! Finding a good coach who can truly help you is the first step to improving....congrats and thanks for sharing your story. 👊
US GOLF TV yeah pleasure
US GOLF TV also my golf coach has been teaching for 4 decades now and I believe he used to do both the old method and new method and then it would be more of a student preference but now he is more strict on the new method, which is good. He also preaches and tilted circle swing going around us in an in to in path to promote a straight shot. To prove it’s in to in, whenever the trackman or flightscope reads 0.0 it was an in to in swing path according to high speed photographic evidence and slow motion video. I even hit a 0.1 degree of in to out when I felt like I was cutting the ball. Technology really fixed the real mechanics of the golf swingZ
US GOLF TV research Roger Gunn. That’s my coach.
Todd , where are you located?
Great great information
Thank you...which part did you find the most helpful?
Hence why we always said golf is a game of opposites. In my opinion (no expert) Trackman is great for us golfers who can easily hit draws and fades . We can use this information and talk about what is really happening. As a student i like knowing this information but I may also want to talk about what I’m feeling is happening. What ever gets the best out of me. Which is why I suppose pros change instructors. Because Trackman alone isn’t going to fix it .
Great points...thanks for watching
100% correct...
Thank you!
what makes the ball curve is how it spins.
yes. and what puts spin on the ball is path of the club head: inside out puts spin on the ball which causes the ball to curve right. outside in puts spin on the ball which causes the ball to curve right. That's why slicers have paths that are outside in (if you have an alignment rod, the path is from outside the rod, through the ball, then inside the rod)
Self Defense and Common Sense.......firstly I am surprised it took golf instructors so long to figure out what engineers would know after their first year at University.....what is said in this video is generally correct. As a footnote there is a more complicated interdependence between club face and swing path but as noted this probably has little value in golf instruction. However, as a Golf Club Design engineer it would be highly relevant. Now...your comment on club head speed is only relevant in that it amplifies what the video points out, it does not negate the points noted in the video. As said in other comments to you..... what works for you and gets results is important and relevant to you - however, science is based on verifiable and measurable fact and to a simple extent that is what this video does....once again I can not fathom how the golf world swallowed so much drivel for so long on such simple laws of physics!
@@tonycarter6321 Incorrect. It is the tilt in spin axis to the left or right that causes the curve as the ball moves through the air. The ball has backspin only
Wedges confuse me if all this is true. I open on the face and the ball still flies straight, just higher.
The higher the loft the less curve you will see in ball flight.
@@USGOLFTVshow Have read that with wedges that the 85/15 drops to as low as 55/45. Have been fiddling with making a spreadsheet of the FTT and Path combos that yield the nine ball flights. Some seriously counterintuitive stuff in there. 🙂 A nice thing about our Mevo+ "Pro Package" lanai setup is that the face and path numbers work just fine with the "foam" golf balls such "Almost Golf Balls". We now suddenly know that it's primarily our FTT's that we want to gain control of - and this kind of feedback has been *huge* for that purpose. Getting there. . .
It's not an opinion, it's the physics.
Speak the truth 👍
@@USGOLFTVshow - I really struggled to correct my shot with the old ideas.
As soon as I read what the actual physics was that governed ball motion, it was easy to dial in my shot.
You can't argue with physics.
Can we claim refunds on faulty lessons?
😂 we have all given a few poor lessons.
jack grout taught what you call new. - back in the 60's. Book: "How I taught Jack Nicklaus to play golf."
I tend to agree because in Nicklaus" Golf My Way, he explains this. If the face is moving across the ball, it imparts the spin. And it spins the ball in the opposite direction of the horinzontal mvmt of the face.
Ben Hogan understood this and fixed his hook before trackman era
Hard to argue with Mr. Hogan...one of the greatest of all time
The only law is physics. Closed to path curves left, open to path curves right. The only thing trackman proved is that pros minupulate the path instead of their alignment.
presentation must be fast
The technology might say so, but I’m not sure if I believe it! lol
Using Science and math!? Get outta here 🤣😂😎😂
Then you add in grip
You got it!
People are actually buying this?
Please expand...buying what?
Why do you video's take so long, with so little actual information?
shawn....sorry you do not take any info from the video....we do our best to provide solid information that can help all golfers....in order to do this it takes time to walk through the process...thanks for watching
No problem. Not everyone is good at giving presentations. Straying from subject matter just muddles key principles.
😊