literally thank u for addressing the corset slander, it’s such an obnoxious trope! my corset that i made honestly super comfy and supportive, and relieves a lot of my back pain (and i lace it pretty tight!) the ONLY time i have ever had trouble breathing in it was after doing three rounds of sparring with swords on a 90 degree day at the ren fair, so i don’t wanna hear it!!!
also, i haven’t read this book yet, it’s been on my reading list for a while, but the author has built in reasons for why the character wouldn’t like his corset, it could be a sensory issue or it could be as simple as “this garment emphasizes my hips and bust and it makes me dysphoric” which would actually be an interesting topic to explore, but it sounds like the author just went for “corset bad!!! 😡😡😡” which is a shame.
It's been a while since I read the book but at the time I remember is coming across as a sensory/dysphoria issue. A lot of the video discussion seems to be how they think the character should have acted based on a neurotypical experience as opposed to the one the author was trying to represent.
And corset was there also to support the very heavy skirts they wore - There is no way to have a multilayered, heavy garment like the period dresses hang just from the shoulders or belt. It was much more comfortable to hang it from a corset, that spread the weight of it over entire torso.
The reason I love this author so much is bc it’s less about the magic systems and why and how things work and more centered on the feelings and what the people are feeling and the evils within mankind. I read his first book before this and it didn’t really land for me but man I loved this one. I’m definitely cool with hearing ppl critique stuff I love tho!! But I kinda love the vagueness and not having other parts fully fleshed out that’s kinda my jam tbh. I will say AJW has an issue in my eyes where the action happens way too fast and it’s super hard to follow esp bc I listen to them both on audio book at the climaxes I find myself having to rewind like three times lol
your description here really reminds me of Joe Abercrombie's work. if you haven't checked out his books, please do. in case you don't know, they're character-driven , human-centric stories in low fantasy setting where the characters all feel like real people, and even most of the vilest characters are relatable, or at least understandable, human beings (for the most part)
its the weekend, i have an ice latte and i get to listen to a new episode of UTT. it is a good day. 5 stars for katie learning about cats, witches and corsets.
I really loved this book, but you guys did point out a few areas that could have been improved, so I enjoyed hearing your ideas. I think this is a book with a lot of subjective enjoyment. I totally understand how you guys got burnt out on aspects like the excessive grim darkness, but I also think that's what the author was going for, and I think that works for him and for some readers like me. I'd still recommend this book to anyone in the comments who thinks it sounds interesting! And you're so right about the audiobook. The narrator is FANTASTIC, so I'd recommend the audiobook specifically. It's not a book for everyone, but the people who like it will really like it.
This book has been on and off my TBR so many times. It sounds super interesting and the cover rocks but I know it goes darker than I can handle. I'm glad you're discussing it because this is probably as close as I'll get to the material.
Um actually tight-lacing was a thing for the uber rich, while it is true that the average woman's corset was worn equivalent to a modern day bra, the rich still came up with unattainable goals to distinguish themselves from the poor. Both men and women wore corsets, at one of the Ivy Leagues men were expected to shave an inch from their waist every year. This is equivalent to foot binding found in Asian culture. Unlike how Xiran Zhao portrayed it in Iron Widow poor farm girls didn't foot bind but the uber rich women did as an expression of their wealth because they were so rich they didn't have to be able to walk anywhere.
Will, my guy, did you just say people Victorian era people weren't into watching greusom torture and executions??? Hangings were a family event, along with beheadings, whippings with barbed cat o'nines, and having people drawn and quartered. I haven't read this book but it's giving Salem witch trial vibes where again stonings, drownings, and being burnt at the stake were all public affairs meant to keep the commoners in line.
The issue of how you can sometimes receive a book differently when you listen to the audiobook version versus reading it on the page Katie brought up made me think on a question I have had for a while, while listening to UTT’s lovely podcasts. And that is - how much does the medium through which you read a novel change and affect how you see it, and how much it can shape your opinion on it, if only in part. I never listen to books, but seeing Katie (and Maria sometimes) mention how the way the audiobook narrator chooses to narrate the book, the different voices used, how they choose to modulate their voice depending which character they’re narrating makes me wonder how much difference it can actually make as far as the reader experience (and their opinion of the novel) goes. Because It kind of seems to me, that sometimes the audiobook narrator has genuinely a lot of influence on how someone receives a book…which almost seems unfair, as it can make bad books seem better, and vice versa…just spitballing here.
I agree with you, I think the audiobook can really make or break a book and that's something that reviewers should take into consideration in their discussions
I have had this thought as well, it seems unfair that some trash books can be elevated by really talented audio book actors. But it can work both ways too, some good books can be great books when they are preformed well or made slightly worse by poor actors. As someone who is very good at mimicking authors writing styles, I've noticed that the authors with the strongest verbal voices, call it the written accent, that seeps off a page, are usually best preformed by the author themselves rather than read by anyone else or say just by someone silently reading the book. Books that don't have a lot of author flavor are easily added to by other people’s voices, I guess like a piece of basic white bread, it can be a really tasty piece of French toast when grandma makes it, or it can be a meh pb&j when dad makes it.
Hi, in hopes you're still reading: 1. tight lacing existed as a class specific thing. It caused fainting (indeed, and the servants wouldn't dare to emulate this!), the accumulation of fatty tissue in the forearms- ever wondered about those oddly plump arms, and why they are so explicitly mentioned (also "round/plump white arms? Class marker) 2. the soldier in the Kingfisher books is very authentic. PTSD and a baseline resilient nature... Humour (the blacker the better) and lightheartedness keep things at a remove. It's all too common actually. It's actually heartening to know that people don't "get" that.
Corset truthers!! But for real I am starting to get real tired of writers portraying anything vaguely historical as a caricature of patriarchy and sexism. There’s zero attempt to actually understand and portray the popular beliefs and mindsets of the times. Like the fact that women could not own property independently but were also expected to manage the household finances. This is very nuanced and interesting and women absolutely gamed the system to obtain power. But instead it’s like “you can’t be a surgeon/warrior/magician because you’re a WoMAN and give me BaBiEs and it just makes a complex thing two dimensional and anachronistic. I’m just tired of this modern morality lens filtering out all of the interesting nuance and details.
It was the Belgians who practiced mutilation in the Congo. They’d cut the hands off of Congolese who couldn’t harvest enough rubber. They did other horrifying things as well.
Ahhhh it’s finally here! This book has been burning a hole in my shelf since I read it. I remember really enjoying this but after sitting on it for a hour lol. I only 5 minutes into the video but I really hope you guys talk about Charlotte because I felt like she was handed horribly. SA Victim gets victim blamed for how she copes with getting abused and indoctrinated and then dies horribly because she’s a “Pick Me”😒. Very feminist Edit: also want to talk about how the writer just didn’t want to acknowledge the misogyny/misunderstanding of the female body(see Silas just repeated the Corset myth without question) that’s bake into the doctors especially at the Time that Silas would continue to follow
The author: I know it's anachronistic and that they're not abiding by Victorian standards and that this wasn't something high-society women faced and I actually took it from poc's history. Me: Okay... then why is this a Victorian setting at all?!? (Also, if the author thinks this disclaimer exempts him from criticism, he's wrong.) I'm firm in my stance that this should have been placed in modern times. The only reason it's in Victorian times is "for the vibes". I'm so annoyed at how much I disliked this book and the more time passes since I've read it, the less I remember anything good about it. The prose was okay crafted for the most part and I enjoyed it for about 20% of the book, but then it became tedious and edgy. Not every single thing needs to be related back to viscera, corpses and medical gore. It was just too much to the point I was inured to it and it only made me roll my eyes "oh, another needlessly gross medical metaphor... this probably makes it an even hundred in the last 50 pages". In the end, my conclusion is that this isn't for me, it wasn't even remotely interested in being for anyone who cares to read a book for the plot or even for the characters. This is for someone who needs validation (but even so, this book isn't saying anything new that a modern person wouldn't have heard somewhere else) or wants to wallow in a marathon of misery. Oh, and also... that line about how Silas can love a woman in a way that only a man who has experienced womanhood can... that sounds pretty, but it's so empty because the character has utter contempt for anything traditionally feminine and can't fathom that a woman might actually WANT children. It's fine not to want them yourself, but failing to understand why anyone would want them and calling them "parasites" is not empathetic in any shape or form.
I’m so glad Silas lived. He was the conduit of the spirits that bared their teeth. I did get annoyed with him however. I think that it was navel gaze-y, but introspection is something that happens. I liked it, my favourite character was Daphne, her journey and connection with stories is so similar to mine. The ending was super abrupt. Also it’s not corset slander as much. Silas didn’t like his corset.
Mostly I don’t read these books but I lovvvveee your chat and your friendship ❤ I’m obsessed with your channel from the moment I found :) plus I want to read books that you’re talking about but mostly they’re not published in my country and I have to read pdfs :/ whatever I love your content guys! And I wanna ask another question, do you plan to continue reading booktuber books? Bc I have recommendations 🤭
Thank you so much for the Trigger Warning. I listened to a few minutes. The rabbit sounds like Jiminey Cricket and Silas is Pinocchio on a quest to become a real boy. Or am I off base? I stopped when things got too much for me. Have a good day.😊
1:16:12 ok so i havent read the book so i dont know exactly how its handled but this kind of self awarness could be atributed to autism, from what i can tell its pretty common for autistic people to be very aware of both how their minds and how generally society work. ( im not sure how to explain it exactly, because i don't mean that autistic people read other people well, but they can notice certain patterns in their behavior and kind of understand them in an almost psychological way) and im saying that as a trans autistic person myself. that being said this kind of conclusion about hating others perception of your own body is a bit much for a 16 year old in a victorian era, but it wouldnt be unimaginable. in fact when you mentioned this scene i thought its very relatable, which is not a common experience for me
So, a quick Google search says that most victorian women were getting married in their early 20s ( with most men being 26), which makes sense because most girls enter society around 17/18ish.
You guys need to read Sacred Bodies by Ver, available only this October through the Shortbox Comics Fair. Not for the podcast, but as a personal recommendation for you monster boyfriend lovers. It's a short and sweet comic with gorgeous art about the arranged marriage between a woman and a giant owl creature. I just finished reading it and rushed here to spread the word.
I don’t understand what you guys are talking about with wanting Silas to not have such a complex understanding of his transness in regards to being comfy with his body but not liking being perceived. what is the alternative how would you write that? Bc every trans person I know as well as myself that’s one of the main experiences we have /gen
I think the issue is not how Silas perceives himself but rather how it’s the same situation as in Iron Widow. Just like the MC in that book, Silas is hyperaware and rational about the issue, which comes off as someone from 21st century being put in Victorian era with all their knowledge and sensibilities
Historically, the word transgender was not used until the 20th century. Before that, the best English term was 'cross dressing'. There are not many records of trans people before the 20th century, though there were some studies and papers written. However, due to the Victorian moral panic cultural views of 'cross-dressing'(only used because at this time this was the only word used) turned towards the negative. Studies still continued in Germany where the next term 'transvestite' came into usage around the early 20th century. It wasn't until after WW2 that the word Transgender began to be used. Unfortunately, there are not many documented trans figures before the 20th century, so to be honest most anyone in that time would likely feel like they were completely alone in the world. The benefit of being in such a time is that, by leaving one's community, one could exist in their identity without anyone being aware of their past. Perhapes that desire to truly exist and forget that past is the reason why today we have so few documented Trans figures outside of different religious groups.
I love you guys, but sometimes the interrupting is really difficult to listen to/follow. I know its coming from a good place - excitement and interest and wanting to ensure nothing is left out - but from an audience standpoint it can be rough.
I completely understand your reasoning although I disagree. I really love the way they interrupt each other because they play off / bounce off each other in natural and dynamic ways. It reminds me of kids who are so excited to say something and just can't hold it in, not that I think they're childish or childlike but it's an enthusiasm that is severely lacking in my life and brings me joy to experience. All that said I do get where you're coming from because it can feel chaotic.
Concur, it can be impossible to follow sometimes. 10/10 content but the frantic interrupting is hard to process! Taking notes and coming back to things might help.
Admit I haven't watched the full vid or read the book, but I wanted to get this thought out: Theory: In a story, when a woman MC experiences misogyny, the takeaway is usually "Forcing women into certain roles and treating them badly is wrong." And when a trans MC experiences transphobia, it's "Forcing trans people into performing a different gender identity from their own and treating them badly is wrong." But when a trans male MC experiences misogyny and transphobia, there is a risk of ending up with something like "It is wrong this man was forced to endure this misogyny as if he was a woman." That is, there ends up being the accidental implication that the treatment was unjustified because the target was a man, and it wouldn't be as much of an issue if they were a woman. Obviously in the real world trans men do experience both transphobia and misogyny, probably even more than cis woman. And those experiences definitely are going to intersect to create a unique experience. But in fiction, it can create an odd effect if it feels like the misogyny is only a problem because society wouldn't let the character transition to a man.
Way to interpret trans men's narratives in the most uncharitable way possible. There are also plenty of stories where a female mc experiences misogyny and it comes across as "but I'm better than most girls so they shouldn't have done this to me."
If you’re worried that the content might be too much to handle I would say watch this but if you think you can I fully think you should read it first! And i DEFINITELY reccomend the audiobook I think listening to it is part of why I loved it so much
yep hirschfeld was a pioneer on a lot of general queer research , amazingly so, why it got burned down and maybe most not, got to that there in research, but still not entirely. So prett advanced. It wasnt only trans research but general queer too and sexiality probably in general? Didnt help he was a gay jewish dude as chef doctor i guess. Korsets were comfortable? The big ring dresses were to make it harder to harass women, i am surprised that isnt the the cold open :P, i mean logically it makes sense, i think korsets are used in a medical sense to support people, it makes sense them being supportive.
gotta be real with you: kind of a bonkers take to complain that the book hates men when a) the mc is a man & b) the setting's time period is well-known to be misogynist as fuck
4:28 also… i say this gently... i LOVE that y’all covered this with such a welcoming and transparent opener warning us about transphobia but i don’t think a title like “woke mind virus” was necessary. i know you’re joking but idk it gave me a jump scare.
I thought of an extremely click-baity title “something something Katie wishes death upon a trans character” but I feel like it would be a little too inappropriate 😅
Heh, I think “The woke mind virus of ghosts” is a pretty good title to troll potential right wingers, who might find this video accidentally, while winking at the regular audience.
@@haggisa Thank f*ck, I clicked thinking this was making fun of people who use "woke" unironcally, then I thought "oh dang, is this actually a right-wing." video?" Because the right-wing wont stay out of my feed! XD Glad to know its not one of those videos, I get tired of being recommended videos that invalidate my existence lmao
@@ron4202 Oh no, no, Will, who edits and uploads their videos, just loves trolling and making fun of bigots with titles sometimes. They’re all very left wing.
It feels like this is a wish fullfilment novel in the sense that its written with the direct midnset of this is a trans story ,ans thats the most important part rather than astory that happwns to have a trans protagonist. I think in a way it can be difficult to admit that a realistic depiction of transness at that time will result in an even more miserable story. Overall I think this story has a lot of potential and it's very obvious that it's written in the way that will help younger possibly trans readers to be more accepting of themselves and to better understand and better Express their feelings. Now the story is not perfect ans i do agree many od the main charactera thoughts feel like a 21st century gender studies seminar and yes the story is not perfect obviously however I think it's important to keep in mind the author's goal with the story which in my opiniom is an empowering story / a story of the people who could not have their story at time rather than a historically accurate portrayal of the times. Personally I think this story would have worked better as an accurate historical novel with smaller more subtle fantasy sections.
First time commenting. I've been watching you handsome bitches since "Truth of the Divine" but I never speak up. I think the discussion here about the complete lack of positive male supporting characters is EXTREMELY important to this book. I find it telling that the author wouldn't even consider giving the transmale protagonist a male role model, let alone a single male friend. It really speaks to the overt hatred so man men receive within queer spaces. I continue to see transmen speak out against the casual andromisia and it is a not so subtle reminder that men are an important part of queer spaces. I'm glad that your show is willing to speak out against gender equality even when it's en vogue. Sometimes it's hard to tell when Will is being sincere and so I really appreciated all of you speaking out against andromisia within a book that should be celebrating masculinity. With regards to the corset discussion, some of the corset hate comes from actresses carelessly wearing authentic FITTED corsets that were not made for their body. They didn't understand that corsets were made for a particular body shape and suffered for no reason. I've also heard that some higher end corsets needed to be broken in first. The corset hate has gotten so bad that outlets are now selling modern corsets called "Waist Trainers". I saw a store selling them at Big 5 and I was laughing in the aisle. Anyway, I love your show. I'd love to see the return of Gina as I think she added important counterpoint, but don't bring her back to read Kushiel's Scion! The book threatens to be an interesting read, but it reveals the worst habits of Jacqueline Carey's writing.
The corset slander is even more weird when you think about the fact that trans masc people nowadays have basically a modified version of it. Yeah, the silhouette formation might be for an hour glass figure, but there are also eras and fashions that called for a more masculine figure, not to mention also MEN also wore corsets. Binders and corsets get the same slander AND have the same advice for use from people who actually know about them outside of smear campaigns : don't wear one too tight, take breaks, don't sleep in it, don't exercise in it - switch out to more suitable attire, and it's not meant to be worn straight and get the results, you have to form an outfit around it. Super weird to hear from a trans narrative after I have personally looked online about corset retailers out of curiosity but also got squicked out thinking that you would always have to settle for the hourglass "femme" look, but then finding trans friendly retailers that actually work with shape desired by the costumer, and who also make these for both binary genders.
Yeah idk will being like “im bad at this” okay so do better? You literally correct yourself and edit it…. Just lack of care if it’s not that important to him to get it right that’s not just okay.:‘do better lol
This sort of nagging anlienates good-meaning allies. They explained exactly why it was hard to keep the pronouns consistent, plus they corrected themselves as soon as they caught the mistakes.
@@mariano7107 "nagging" "good-meaning allies" lol. Not like I said they need to be jailed, not like I made this comment after just a mistake or two. These are intelligent people, they can do a bit better
@@NonAnonD I think in this particular instance they stumbled, because in the text of the book Sylas is referred to as “she” so often, and treated as a girl by the majority of the characters, so their brains must have registered it so frequently it messed with how they talked about the character.
I would love more historic fiction that weaponizes women's fashion. The hoop skirt circle of protection, the hat pins of stabbing.
literally thank u for addressing the corset slander, it’s such an obnoxious trope! my corset that i made honestly super comfy and supportive, and relieves a lot of my back pain (and i lace it pretty tight!) the ONLY time i have ever had trouble breathing in it was after doing three rounds of sparring with swords on a 90 degree day at the ren fair, so i don’t wanna hear it!!!
also, i haven’t read this book yet, it’s been on my reading list for a while, but the author has built in reasons for why the character wouldn’t like his corset, it could be a sensory issue or it could be as simple as “this garment emphasizes my hips and bust and it makes me dysphoric” which would actually be an interesting topic to explore, but it sounds like the author just went for “corset bad!!! 😡😡😡” which is a shame.
It's been a while since I read the book but at the time I remember is coming across as a sensory/dysphoria issue. A lot of the video discussion seems to be how they think the character should have acted based on a neurotypical experience as opposed to the one the author was trying to represent.
And corset was there also to support the very heavy skirts they wore - There is no way to have a multilayered, heavy garment like the period dresses hang just from the shoulders or belt. It was much more comfortable to hang it from a corset, that spread the weight of it over entire torso.
The reason I love this author so much is bc it’s less about the magic systems and why and how things work and more centered on the feelings and what the people are feeling and the evils within mankind. I read his first book before this and it didn’t really land for me but man I loved this one. I’m definitely cool with hearing ppl critique stuff I love tho!! But I kinda love the vagueness and not having other parts fully fleshed out that’s kinda my jam tbh. I will say AJW has an issue in my eyes where the action happens way too fast and it’s super hard to follow esp bc I listen to them both on audio book at the climaxes I find myself having to rewind like three times lol
your description here really reminds me of Joe Abercrombie's work. if you haven't checked out his books, please do. in case you don't know, they're character-driven , human-centric stories in low fantasy setting where the characters all feel like real people, and even most of the vilest characters are relatable, or at least understandable, human beings (for the most part)
its the weekend, i have an ice latte and i get to listen to a new episode of UTT. it is a good day.
5 stars for katie learning about cats, witches and corsets.
I really loved this book, but you guys did point out a few areas that could have been improved, so I enjoyed hearing your ideas. I think this is a book with a lot of subjective enjoyment. I totally understand how you guys got burnt out on aspects like the excessive grim darkness, but I also think that's what the author was going for, and I think that works for him and for some readers like me. I'd still recommend this book to anyone in the comments who thinks it sounds interesting! And you're so right about the audiobook. The narrator is FANTASTIC, so I'd recommend the audiobook specifically. It's not a book for everyone, but the people who like it will really like it.
This book has been on and off my TBR so many times. It sounds super interesting and the cover rocks but I know it goes darker than I can handle. I'm glad you're discussing it because this is probably as close as I'll get to the material.
Um actually tight-lacing was a thing for the uber rich, while it is true that the average woman's corset was worn equivalent to a modern day bra, the rich still came up with unattainable goals to distinguish themselves from the poor. Both men and women wore corsets, at one of the Ivy Leagues men were expected to shave an inch from their waist every year. This is equivalent to foot binding found in Asian culture. Unlike how Xiran Zhao portrayed it in Iron Widow poor farm girls didn't foot bind but the uber rich women did as an expression of their wealth because they were so rich they didn't have to be able to walk anywhere.
Will, my guy, did you just say people Victorian era people weren't into watching greusom torture and executions??? Hangings were a family event, along with beheadings, whippings with barbed cat o'nines, and having people drawn and quartered. I haven't read this book but it's giving Salem witch trial vibes where again stonings, drownings, and being burnt at the stake were all public affairs meant to keep the commoners in line.
The issue of how you can sometimes receive a book differently when you listen to the audiobook version versus reading it on the page Katie brought up made me think on a question I have had for a while, while listening to UTT’s lovely podcasts. And that is - how much does the medium through which you read a novel change and affect how you see it, and how much it can shape your opinion on it, if only in part. I never listen to books, but seeing Katie (and Maria sometimes) mention how the way the audiobook narrator chooses to narrate the book, the different voices used, how they choose to modulate their voice depending which character they’re narrating makes me wonder how much difference it can actually make as far as the reader experience (and their opinion of the novel) goes. Because It kind of seems to me, that sometimes the audiobook narrator has genuinely a lot of influence on how someone receives a book…which almost seems unfair, as it can make bad books seem better, and vice versa…just spitballing here.
I agree with you, I think the audiobook can really make or break a book and that's something that reviewers should take into consideration in their discussions
I have had this thought as well, it seems unfair that some trash books can be elevated by really talented audio book actors. But it can work both ways too, some good books can be great books when they are preformed well or made slightly worse by poor actors. As someone who is very good at mimicking authors writing styles, I've noticed that the authors with the strongest verbal voices, call it the written accent, that seeps off a page, are usually best preformed by the author themselves rather than read by anyone else or say just by someone silently reading the book. Books that don't have a lot of author flavor are easily added to by other people’s voices, I guess like a piece of basic white bread, it can be a really tasty piece of French toast when grandma makes it, or it can be a meh pb&j when dad makes it.
33:38 Source?
I really appreciate the corset lesson and mention of people like Bernadette. The corset myth has to die.
@@JeanetHenning And from which primary account has this non-historian his information from?
Nevermind. Im not google. I thought I was helping but clearly not.
Hi, in hopes you're still reading: 1. tight lacing existed as a class specific thing. It caused fainting (indeed, and the servants wouldn't dare to emulate this!), the accumulation of fatty tissue in the forearms- ever wondered about those oddly plump arms, and why they are so explicitly mentioned (also "round/plump white arms? Class marker)
2. the soldier in the Kingfisher books is very authentic. PTSD and a baseline resilient nature... Humour (the blacker the better) and lightheartedness keep things at a remove. It's all too common actually. It's actually heartening to know that people don't "get" that.
Corset truthers!! But for real I am starting to get real tired of writers portraying anything vaguely historical as a caricature of patriarchy and sexism. There’s zero attempt to actually understand and portray the popular beliefs and mindsets of the times. Like the fact that women could not own property independently but were also expected to manage the household finances. This is very nuanced and interesting and women absolutely gamed the system to obtain power. But instead it’s like “you can’t be a surgeon/warrior/magician because you’re a WoMAN and give me BaBiEs and it just makes a complex thing two dimensional and anachronistic. I’m just tired of this modern morality lens filtering out all of the interesting nuance and details.
It was the Belgians who practiced mutilation in the Congo. They’d cut the hands off of Congolese who couldn’t harvest enough rubber. They did other horrifying things as well.
Ahhhh it’s finally here! This book has been burning a hole in my shelf since I read it.
I remember really enjoying this but after sitting on it for a hour lol. I only 5 minutes into the video but I really hope you guys talk about Charlotte because I felt like she was handed horribly. SA Victim gets victim blamed for how she copes with getting abused and indoctrinated and then dies horribly because she’s a “Pick Me”😒. Very feminist
Edit: also want to talk about how the writer just didn’t want to acknowledge the misogyny/misunderstanding of the female body(see Silas just repeated the Corset myth without question) that’s bake into the doctors especially at the Time that Silas would continue to follow
The author: I know it's anachronistic and that they're not abiding by Victorian standards and that this wasn't something high-society women faced and I actually took it from poc's history.
Me: Okay... then why is this a Victorian setting at all?!? (Also, if the author thinks this disclaimer exempts him from criticism, he's wrong.)
I'm firm in my stance that this should have been placed in modern times. The only reason it's in Victorian times is "for the vibes".
I'm so annoyed at how much I disliked this book and the more time passes since I've read it, the less I remember anything good about it. The prose was okay crafted for the most part and I enjoyed it for about 20% of the book, but then it became tedious and edgy. Not every single thing needs to be related back to viscera, corpses and medical gore. It was just too much to the point I was inured to it and it only made me roll my eyes "oh, another needlessly gross medical metaphor... this probably makes it an even hundred in the last 50 pages".
In the end, my conclusion is that this isn't for me, it wasn't even remotely interested in being for anyone who cares to read a book for the plot or even for the characters. This is for someone who needs validation (but even so, this book isn't saying anything new that a modern person wouldn't have heard somewhere else) or wants to wallow in a marathon of misery.
Oh, and also... that line about how Silas can love a woman in a way that only a man who has experienced womanhood can... that sounds pretty, but it's so empty because the character has utter contempt for anything traditionally feminine and can't fathom that a woman might actually WANT children. It's fine not to want them yourself, but failing to understand why anyone would want them and calling them "parasites" is not empathetic in any shape or form.
Yesssss all my thoughts 👏🏻
I’m so glad Silas lived. He was the conduit of the spirits that bared their teeth. I did get annoyed with him however. I think that it was navel gaze-y, but introspection is something that happens. I liked it, my favourite character was Daphne, her journey and connection with stories is so similar to mine.
The ending was super abrupt.
Also it’s not corset slander as much. Silas didn’t like his corset.
Mostly I don’t read these books but I lovvvveee your chat and your friendship ❤ I’m obsessed with your channel from the moment I found :) plus I want to read books that you’re talking about but mostly they’re not published in my country and I have to read pdfs :/ whatever I love your content guys! And I wanna ask another question, do you plan to continue reading booktuber books? Bc I have recommendations 🤭
1:59:10 I think you mean Belgian Congo
Thank you so much for the Trigger Warning.
I listened to a few minutes. The rabbit sounds like Jiminey Cricket and Silas is Pinocchio on a quest to become a real boy.
Or am I off base? I stopped when things got too much for me.
Have a good day.😊
Idk if you guys take requests or if this is the way to do it but I would love to hear you guys go over the Infinite and the Divine.
1:16:12 ok so i havent read the book so i dont know exactly how its handled but this kind of self awarness could be atributed to autism, from what i can tell its pretty common for autistic people to be very aware of both how their minds and how generally society work. ( im not sure how to explain it exactly, because i don't mean that autistic people read other people well, but they can notice certain patterns in their behavior and kind of understand them in an almost psychological way) and im saying that as a trans autistic person myself. that being said this kind of conclusion about hating others perception of your own body is a bit much for a 16 year old in a victorian era, but it wouldnt be unimaginable. in fact when you mentioned this scene i thought its very relatable, which is not a common experience for me
OH! So this what this book was, when I first heard the title I thought it’s that book about a wolf spirit but it is not :)
So, a quick Google search says that most victorian women were getting married in their early 20s ( with most men being 26), which makes sense because most girls enter society around 17/18ish.
You guys need to read Sacred Bodies by Ver, available only this October through the Shortbox Comics Fair. Not for the podcast, but as a personal recommendation for you monster boyfriend lovers. It's a short and sweet comic with gorgeous art about the arranged marriage between a woman and a giant owl creature. I just finished reading it and rushed here to spread the word.
I don’t understand what you guys are talking about with wanting Silas to not have such a complex understanding of his transness in regards to being comfy with his body but not liking being perceived. what is the alternative how would you write that? Bc every trans person I know as well as myself that’s one of the main experiences we have /gen
I think the issue is not how Silas perceives himself but rather how it’s the same situation as in Iron Widow. Just like the MC in that book, Silas is hyperaware and rational about the issue, which comes off as someone from 21st century being put in Victorian era with all their knowledge and sensibilities
@@eugenebezpalko1631 ahhhh okay that makes sense! Ty !
Historically, the word transgender was not used until the 20th century. Before that, the best English term was 'cross dressing'. There are not many records of trans people before the 20th century, though there were some studies and papers written. However, due to the Victorian moral panic cultural views of 'cross-dressing'(only used because at this time this was the only word used) turned towards the negative. Studies still continued in Germany where the next term 'transvestite' came into usage around the early 20th century. It wasn't until after WW2 that the word Transgender began to be used. Unfortunately, there are not many documented trans figures before the 20th century, so to be honest most anyone in that time would likely feel like they were completely alone in the world. The benefit of being in such a time is that, by leaving one's community, one could exist in their identity without anyone being aware of their past. Perhapes that desire to truly exist and forget that past is the reason why today we have so few documented Trans figures outside of different religious groups.
42:33 PREACH IM SO TIRED OF CIRSET SLANDER THEY WERE JUST BRAS
Thank you for the trigger warning ❤. Won’t be watching but love you all.
44:40 yep! 1700s men filled thier stockings with sand bags ti make thier calves look more muscular and thick (cause that was considered sexy then)
I love you guys, but sometimes the interrupting is really difficult to listen to/follow. I know its coming from a good place - excitement and interest and wanting to ensure nothing is left out - but from an audience standpoint it can be rough.
I completely understand your reasoning although I disagree. I really love the way they interrupt each other because they play off / bounce off each other in natural and dynamic ways. It reminds me of kids who are so excited to say something and just can't hold it in, not that I think they're childish or childlike but it's an enthusiasm that is severely lacking in my life and brings me joy to experience. All that said I do get where you're coming from because it can feel chaotic.
Concur, it can be impossible to follow sometimes. 10/10 content but the frantic interrupting is hard to process! Taking notes and coming back to things might help.
Admit I haven't watched the full vid or read the book, but I wanted to get this thought out:
Theory:
In a story, when a woman MC experiences misogyny, the takeaway is usually "Forcing women into certain roles and treating them badly is wrong."
And when a trans MC experiences transphobia, it's "Forcing trans people into performing a different gender identity from their own and treating them badly is wrong."
But when a trans male MC experiences misogyny and transphobia, there is a risk of ending up with something like "It is wrong this man was forced to endure this misogyny as if he was a woman." That is, there ends up being the accidental implication that the treatment was unjustified because the target was a man, and it wouldn't be as much of an issue if they were a woman.
Obviously in the real world trans men do experience both transphobia and misogyny, probably even more than cis woman. And those experiences definitely are going to intersect to create a unique experience. But in fiction, it can create an odd effect if it feels like the misogyny is only a problem because society wouldn't let the character transition to a man.
Way to interpret trans men's narratives in the most uncharitable way possible.
There are also plenty of stories where a female mc experiences misogyny and it comes across as "but I'm better than most girls so they shouldn't have done this to me."
what moves the dead mention woo!!!🎉🎉🎉
not sure if i should watch this or read the book first
If you’re worried that the content might be too much to handle I would say watch this but if you think you can I fully think you should read it first! And i DEFINITELY reccomend the audiobook I think listening to it is part of why I loved it so much
yep hirschfeld was a pioneer on a lot of general queer research , amazingly so, why it got burned down and maybe most not, got to that there in research, but still not entirely. So prett advanced. It wasnt only trans research but general queer too and sexiality probably in general? Didnt help he was a gay jewish dude as chef doctor i guess.
Korsets were comfortable? The big ring dresses were to make it harder to harass women, i am surprised that isnt the the cold open :P, i mean logically it makes sense, i think korsets are used in a medical sense to support people, it makes sense them being supportive.
gotta be real with you: kind of a bonkers take to complain that the book hates men when a) the mc is a man & b) the setting's time period is well-known to be misogynist as fuck
did you intentionally write the title as “the spirit of bares its teeth” lol im at 1:37 right now so maybe there’s a joke there
4:28 also… i say this gently... i LOVE that y’all covered this with such a welcoming and transparent opener warning us about transphobia but i don’t think a title like “woke mind virus” was necessary. i know you’re joking but idk it gave me a jump scare.
I thought of an extremely click-baity title “something something Katie wishes death upon a trans character” but I feel like it would be a little too inappropriate 😅
Heh, I think “The woke mind virus of ghosts” is a pretty good title to troll potential right wingers, who might find this video accidentally, while winking at the regular audience.
@@haggisa
Thank f*ck, I clicked thinking this was making fun of people who use "woke" unironcally, then I thought "oh dang, is this actually a right-wing." video?" Because the right-wing wont stay out of my feed! XD
Glad to know its not one of those videos, I get tired of being recommended videos that invalidate my existence lmao
@@ron4202 Oh no, no, Will, who edits and uploads their videos, just loves trolling and making fun of bigots with titles sometimes. They’re all very left wing.
It feels like this is a wish fullfilment novel in the sense that its written with the direct midnset of this is a trans story ,ans thats the most important part rather than astory that happwns to have a trans protagonist. I think in a way it can be difficult to admit that a realistic depiction of transness at that time will result in an even more miserable story. Overall I think this story has a lot of potential and it's very obvious that it's written in the way that will help younger possibly trans readers to be more accepting of themselves and to better understand and better Express their feelings. Now the story is not perfect ans i do agree many od the main charactera thoughts feel like a 21st century gender studies seminar and yes the story is not perfect obviously however I think it's important to keep in mind the author's goal with the story which in my opiniom is an empowering story / a story of the people who could not have their story at time rather than a historically accurate portrayal of the times.
Personally I think this story would have worked better as an accurate historical novel with smaller more subtle fantasy sections.
Love from a DanielGreene and Vaush fan!
While listening to this, I cant help but think about LockWood & Co.
BLUE EYE SAMURAAAIIII 🤘
First time commenting. I've been watching you handsome bitches since "Truth of the Divine" but I never speak up.
I think the discussion here about the complete lack of positive male supporting characters is EXTREMELY important to this book. I find it telling that the author wouldn't even consider giving the transmale protagonist a male role model, let alone a single male friend. It really speaks to the overt hatred so man men receive within queer spaces. I continue to see transmen speak out against the casual andromisia and it is a not so subtle reminder that men are an important part of queer spaces. I'm glad that your show is willing to speak out against gender equality even when it's en vogue. Sometimes it's hard to tell when Will is being sincere and so I really appreciated all of you speaking out against andromisia within a book that should be celebrating masculinity.
With regards to the corset discussion, some of the corset hate comes from actresses carelessly wearing authentic FITTED corsets that were not made for their body. They didn't understand that corsets were made for a particular body shape and suffered for no reason. I've also heard that some higher end corsets needed to be broken in first. The corset hate has gotten so bad that outlets are now selling modern corsets called "Waist Trainers". I saw a store selling them at Big 5 and I was laughing in the aisle.
Anyway, I love your show. I'd love to see the return of Gina as I think she added important counterpoint, but don't bring her back to read Kushiel's Scion! The book threatens to be an interesting read, but it reveals the worst habits of Jacqueline Carey's writing.
The corset slander is even more weird when you think about the fact that trans masc people nowadays have basically a modified version of it. Yeah, the silhouette formation might be for an hour glass figure, but there are also eras and fashions that called for a more masculine figure, not to mention also MEN also wore corsets. Binders and corsets get the same slander AND have the same advice for use from people who actually know about them outside of smear campaigns : don't wear one too tight, take breaks, don't sleep in it, don't exercise in it - switch out to more suitable attire, and it's not meant to be worn straight and get the results, you have to form an outfit around it. Super weird to hear from a trans narrative after I have personally looked online about corset retailers out of curiosity but also got squicked out thinking that you would always have to settle for the hourglass "femme" look, but then finding trans friendly retailers that actually work with shape desired by the costumer, and who also make these for both binary genders.
ok we’re all human but y’all REALLY messed up the pronouns a lot
Yeah idk will being like “im bad at this” okay so do better? You literally correct yourself and edit it…. Just lack of care if it’s not that important to him to get it right that’s not just okay.:‘do better lol
You literally just said "we're all human" it happens, and they correct themselves quickly
This sort of nagging anlienates good-meaning allies. They explained exactly why it was hard to keep the pronouns consistent, plus they corrected themselves as soon as they caught the mistakes.
@@mariano7107 "nagging" "good-meaning allies" lol. Not like I said they need to be jailed, not like I made this comment after just a mistake or two. These are intelligent people, they can do a bit better
@@NonAnonD I think in this particular instance they stumbled, because in the text of the book Sylas is referred to as “she” so often, and treated as a girl by the majority of the characters, so their brains must have registered it so frequently it messed with how they talked about the character.
You guys watched Martryrs? I'm too scared to watch it alone and no one I know likes horror movies🥲