This expansive approach to the Gospel is an important way forward for people who are entering a mature stage of faith. Black and white approaches do not help those who are beginning to see that our Heavenly Parents are undoubtedly nimble enough thinkers to be able to speak personally to the billions of inhabitants of the earth who have come from such incredibly diverse cultures. Thank you Brother Givens and The Murph for such rich content.
Good stuff! Let’s chat sometime Murph! Some of my favs from this: 1. Mining for more Gems from Christian History 2. The smell of Mummies as a catalyst for revelation 3. I want to learn your accent! (Book-ee-Abraham my fav:) 4. I’d love to hear your story about almost converting to Christianity but then coming back
Really good conversation. I loved the explanation of why simplicity in the gospel should be the focus of our faith and how at the same time learning about the past doesn’t have to shake our faith because it’s anchored in Christ and God’s Plan for His children. It also makes me thankful for my Dad teaching me His gospel views both spiritually and intellectually.
He said that the book of Mormon was the best-selling book in American history. But if it is merely printed and given away for free, does that count to compare it to all the other works that consumers have to purchase?
If as You Murph & Terryl Givens say we can learn so much more from the contributions of other Biblical scholars & churches: How do you, therefore, reconcile the words of the Lord in response to Joseph Smith's question - "which of all the churches shall I join?" "Join not of them because they have all gone astray & teach the doctrines & commandments of men" if it was so then is it not so today?
I think what the Lord is saying is that his authority isn't with them and none are recognised as his. But Joseph at other times gave statements such as Mormonism seeks for truth from wherever it may be and seeks to add to the truth we already have. I think we can learn from science, historians and scholars and not see them as enemies.
@@mormonismwiththemurph seems your authority fallacy has changed over the years from Joseph Smith's time. The Roman Catholic church has a much better claim to being the only true church: since they existed in early church history. But even their interpretations of Peter's only Apostolic authority is flaud in relationship to Jesus two Powers in Heaven Israelite theology of the 2nd Temple period Biblical Judaism. You're not the only group that thinks they are special: most counterfeit groups claim to be the only true understanding of what Jesus taught .
@@davidjanbaz7728 What other group claims that John the Baptist, Moses, and Elijah appeared and physically passed on priesthood keys? I don't think the Catholic church's claim beats that.
Rather than addressing the issues, Terryl seems to be saying over and over again that they're not really a big deal to him. While this may be honest, it leaves all of the issues unresolved for people who actually do care. To claim to be an intellectual and at the same time to dismiss these arguments as unimportant or things that you don't really care about (or feel a need to resolve) seems disingenuous. It seems like he is more comfortable resting on his laurels (and the support of his community) than doing actual scholarship and trying to resolve actual historical truths.
37:00 - Givens seems to dismiss that anything is at stake with Noah being literal or allegorical. Bruce R. McConkie and others taught that in order for the earth to become celestial it was necessary for it to literally be baptized and that this occurred when it was buried in water during the great flood. Dismissing doctrines of the 1960s and 1970s (in print until 2010) as unimportant may make for good sound bites, but does not make for consistent truth.
Bruce R. McConkie's interpretations don't define doctrine. Where is Noah's flood being global and literal proclaimed to be essential and salvific? There are tons of problems with such a literal reading of this story too. Here are just a few: 1. It would be impossible for two of all species of animals to fit on a boat with the dimensions described. 2. Land dwelling animals are often separated from Noah and each other by impassible oceans (kangaroos, crocodiles, bison, mamoths, etc.). 2. The geographic and fossil records show no indication of a global flood anytime in the last million years. 3. The diversity of the human species cannot have come from 4 married couples who lived 6000 or fewer years ago. I wouldn't hinge your faith on such an incredulous interpretation or state that others have to do so.
As these so called "doctrines" were primarily taught outside of the official publications of the Church, they comprise more of McConkie's personal opinions than anything binding on LDS membership. Even at the time fellow Apostles, like Hugh B Brown, and members of the Seventy like Henry Eyring were pushing back against McConkie's interpretations.
1:09:00 When Givens talks about the 1912 response, he fails to mention how big of a deal this was. This occupied more than 1/3 of the pages of the improvement Era for 6 months. One of the prominent responses came from a proclaimed non-mormon Egyptologist. The only problem is, this was a complete fabrication (and was written by an unqualified church member). The response was a lie. The official response of the church in 1912 was to lie. So yes, we do need to learn from the history.
I've heard about Terryl Givens here and there, but this is my first time hearing his take on things. It strikes me odd that one can take such an informed, liberal, and nuanced approach but still want to be a part of the Cooperation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. There is no space for real prophets to influence the administrators. My take is Prophets are a natural occurrence not something you an be ordained to. If there was a counsel of people like Terryl updating and guiding the theology I could see myself considering participation. -I don't really get the "buying the field" analogy. Why not just take the good parts and leave the rest. Ideas and information are not actually in a field after all. Is he saying you have to kind of trick your brain into believing it in order to get the the benefits? like placebo effect? -Where does the allegory in scripture end? The text itself makes no indication of this. How would one decide that it becomes literal when Christ is atoning for the sins of man kind? -Could the gospels be pseudepigrapha of oral traditions where each author was personally resonating with a narrative in the Jesus story. Why is the hypothesis of it being different perspectives of a literal event chosen? 50:00 - "Nobody has ever been able to come up with an alternative narrative for the BoM that is in the least bit plausible" I feel like that is pretty dishonest to say that as if it is objective and not just an opinion. "visions in a seer stone" is a pretty good good book on this I've read recently, but there is so much new info in recent years. This seems like a "does not seem plausible to me, therefore aliens" kinda reasoning. I think he retreats after you push back a little: 54:24 "there is insufficient data to derive a logically inevitable conclusion" That seems pretty fair, but is a far cry from his initial statement. 50:10 - "In his wife's words could not even string together 2 sentences" come on, that is just dishonest to keep using that reference. The October 1829 letter to Oliver Cowdry proves that Emma was exaggerating quite a bit (some may say lying?). I mean he may not have been a scholar but to keep using that idea to make the BoM more miraculous is not a wholistic view of the evidence. 1:03:53 - Temple recommend questions seem to be more than he is trying to imply here. It's like he only want's the first 3 to be real. Do you really have to sustain all the leaders to be saved? Do you honestly think god cares if you drink tea? Does he really want the church to horde all the money and give most of the Charity to people who are members and also pay their tithing? Should a local dentist really be the gate keeper between you and god? 1 Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost? 2 Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer? 3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days? 4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church? 5 Do you live the law of chastity? 6 Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church? 7 Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? 8 Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel? 9 Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen? 10 Are you a full-tithe payer? 11 Do your keep the Word of Wisdom? Seems like the church is in need of some major reforms but as long a people keep going and paying tithing they have zero incentive to do so. It is a corporation after all. sorry to word vomit all my critical thoughts here but I thank you for the space to do so.
@@mruss31415 same difference. Just because you publish and give a bunch of books away doesn't say anything about how influential or informative it is. I recall as a missionary that we had stacks of BOMs laying around collecting dust that no one wanted.
@@kraniodesign4555 well now you're criticizing a claim that wasn't made. Terryl merely pointed out that the book of Mormon has more copies in distribution than any other American author. That is true as far as I can tell. If you want to argue about how influential the book has been that's another discussion. So it's not the same diff
@@kraniodesign4555 why don't you ask Terryl why he brought it up? ;) But my point is that his statement is true so I felt it worthwhile to defend him against your criticism
It is interesting how he disparages the God of the gap theory, and then promptly uses the same logic to claim the veracity of the book of Mormon. Joseph couldn’t have done it so it had to come from God. The whole mood of the interview felt dismissive.
It is interesting how he disparages the God of the gaps theory, and then promptly uses the same logic to claim the veracity of the book of Mormon. Joseph couldn’t have done it so it had to come from God. The whole mood of the interview felt dismissive.
Terryl Givens is always a treat to listen to. By far my favorite Latter-day Saint scholar.
Glad you enjoyed it!
The man is a poet.
@@kp6553 Yes, for example, his commentary on the perspectives of the writers of the Four Gospels (45 min+) was magnificent!
Would you please post Dan McCloud? Tictoc link? I am interested in learning more.
Very helpful in seeing the bigger picture! Actually faith building 💖
This expansive approach to the Gospel is an important way forward for people who are entering a mature stage of faith. Black and white approaches do not help those who are beginning to see that our Heavenly Parents are undoubtedly nimble enough thinkers to be able to speak personally to the billions of inhabitants of the earth who have come from such incredibly diverse cultures.
Thank you Brother Givens and The Murph for such rich content.
Thanks for your comments 🙂
TG is my guru
Big thumbs up for this interview.
Thanks!
Great conversation. Thanks Murph!
Thanks for watching
Loved it! Thank you.
Awesome interview and I love the "purchase the whole field" analogy.
Yeah I thought that was profound!
Good stuff!
Let’s chat sometime Murph!
Some of my favs from this:
1. Mining for more Gems from Christian History
2. The smell of Mummies as a catalyst for revelation
3. I want to learn your accent! (Book-ee-Abraham my fav:)
4. I’d love to hear your story about almost converting to Christianity but then coming back
Hi Tony! I'm glad you enjoyed it, I was interviewed by Steven Pynakker on mbr where I share my story briefly
Really good conversation. I loved the explanation of why simplicity in the gospel should be the focus of our faith and how at the same time learning about the past doesn’t have to shake our faith because it’s anchored in Christ and God’s Plan for His children. It also makes me thankful for my Dad teaching me His gospel views both spiritually and intellectually.
That's awesome!
Thoroughly enjoyed this, thank you!
Thanks for watching David!
Do you have to buy the Mormon field though?
yes no agency in the matter :P
He said that the book of Mormon was the best-selling book in American history. But if it is merely printed and given away for free, does that count to compare it to all the other works that consumers have to purchase?
If as You Murph & Terryl Givens say we can learn so much more from the contributions of other Biblical scholars & churches: How do you, therefore, reconcile the words of the Lord in response to Joseph Smith's question - "which of all the churches shall I join?" "Join not of them because they have all gone astray & teach the doctrines & commandments of men" if it was so then is it not so today?
I think what the Lord is saying is that his authority isn't with them and none are recognised as his. But Joseph at other times gave statements such as Mormonism seeks for truth from wherever it may be and seeks to add to the truth we already have. I think we can learn from science, historians and scholars and not see them as enemies.
@@mormonismwiththemurph seems your authority fallacy has changed over the years from Joseph Smith's time.
The Roman Catholic church has a much better claim to being the only true church: since they existed in early church history.
But even their interpretations of Peter's only Apostolic authority is flaud in relationship to Jesus two Powers in Heaven Israelite theology of the 2nd Temple period Biblical Judaism.
You're not the only group that thinks they are special: most counterfeit groups claim to be the only true understanding of what Jesus taught .
@@davidjanbaz7728 What other group claims that John the Baptist, Moses, and Elijah appeared and physically passed on priesthood keys? I don't think the Catholic church's claim beats that.
Really wonderful interview! Thanks for your work on this. Just found your channel today and will be subscribing.
Welcome aboard! Thanks for watching
His son was my trainer in Germany.
That's cool
Sounds like nothing short of a good thing
Rather than addressing the issues, Terryl seems to be saying over and over again that they're not really a big deal to him. While this may be honest, it leaves all of the issues unresolved for people who actually do care. To claim to be an intellectual and at the same time to dismiss these arguments as unimportant or things that you don't really care about (or feel a need to resolve) seems disingenuous. It seems like he is more comfortable resting on his laurels (and the support of his community) than doing actual scholarship and trying to resolve actual historical truths.
Everyone has to determine for their own circumstances and faith to what is important to them.
37:00 - Givens seems to dismiss that anything is at stake with Noah being literal or allegorical. Bruce R. McConkie and others taught that in order for the earth to become celestial it was necessary for it to literally be baptized and that this occurred when it was buried in water during the great flood. Dismissing doctrines of the 1960s and 1970s (in print until 2010) as unimportant may make for good sound bites, but does not make for consistent truth.
Bruce R. McConkie's interpretations don't define doctrine. Where is Noah's flood being global and literal proclaimed to be essential and salvific? There are tons of problems with such a literal reading of this story too. Here are just a few: 1. It would be impossible for two of all species of animals to fit on a boat with the dimensions described. 2. Land dwelling animals are often separated from Noah and each other by impassible oceans (kangaroos, crocodiles, bison, mamoths, etc.). 2. The geographic and fossil records show no indication of a global flood anytime in the last million years. 3. The diversity of the human species cannot have come from 4 married couples who lived 6000 or fewer years ago. I wouldn't hinge your faith on such an incredulous interpretation or state that others have to do so.
As these so called "doctrines" were primarily taught outside of the official publications of the Church, they comprise more of McConkie's personal opinions than anything binding on LDS membership. Even at the time fellow Apostles, like Hugh B Brown, and members of the Seventy like Henry Eyring were pushing back against McConkie's interpretations.
I needed this. Thank you.
You're welcome
1:09:00 When Givens talks about the 1912 response, he fails to mention how big of a deal this was. This occupied more than 1/3 of the pages of the improvement Era for 6 months. One of the prominent responses came from a proclaimed non-mormon Egyptologist. The only problem is, this was a complete fabrication (and was written by an unqualified church member). The response was a lie. The official response of the church in 1912 was to lie. So yes, we do need to learn from the history.
I've heard about Terryl Givens here and there, but this is my first time hearing his take on things. It strikes me odd that one can take such an informed, liberal, and nuanced approach but still want to be a part of the Cooperation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. There is no space for real prophets to influence the administrators. My take is Prophets are a natural occurrence not something you an be ordained to. If there was a counsel of people like Terryl updating and guiding the theology I could see myself considering participation.
-I don't really get the "buying the field" analogy. Why not just take the good parts and leave the rest. Ideas and information are not actually in a field after all. Is he saying you have to kind of trick your brain into believing it in order to get the the benefits? like placebo effect?
-Where does the allegory in scripture end? The text itself makes no indication of this. How would one decide that it becomes literal when Christ is atoning for the sins of man kind?
-Could the gospels be pseudepigrapha of oral traditions where each author was personally resonating with a narrative in the Jesus story. Why is the hypothesis of it being different perspectives of a literal event chosen?
50:00 - "Nobody has ever been able to come up with an alternative narrative for the BoM that is in the least bit plausible" I feel like that is pretty dishonest to say that as if it is objective and not just an opinion. "visions in a seer stone" is a pretty good good book on this I've read recently, but there is so much new info in recent years. This seems like a "does not seem plausible to me, therefore aliens" kinda reasoning. I think he retreats after you push back a little: 54:24 "there is insufficient data to derive a logically inevitable conclusion" That seems pretty fair, but is a far cry from his initial statement.
50:10 - "In his wife's words could not even string together 2 sentences" come on, that is just dishonest to keep using that reference. The October 1829 letter to Oliver Cowdry proves that Emma was exaggerating quite a bit (some may say lying?). I mean he may not have been a scholar but to keep using that idea to make the BoM more miraculous is not a wholistic view of the evidence.
1:03:53 - Temple recommend questions seem to be more than he is trying to imply here. It's like he only want's the first 3 to be real. Do you really have to sustain all the leaders to be saved? Do you honestly think god cares if you drink tea? Does he really want the church to horde all the money and give most of the Charity to people who are members and also pay their tithing? Should a local dentist really be the gate keeper between you and god?
1 Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost?
2 Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer?
3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?
4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?
5 Do you live the law of chastity?
6 Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church?
7 Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
8 Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?
9 Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?
10 Are you a full-tithe payer?
11 Do your keep the Word of Wisdom?
Seems like the church is in need of some major reforms but as long a people keep going and paying tithing they have zero incentive to do so. It is a corporation after all.
sorry to word vomit all my critical thoughts here but I thank you for the space to do so.
published books does not equal sold books
He later said books in distribution. So The Book of Mormon has the most copies in distribution of all American authors, not purchased.
@@mruss31415 same difference. Just because you publish and give a bunch of books away doesn't say anything about how influential or informative it is. I recall as a missionary that we had stacks of BOMs laying around collecting dust that no one wanted.
@@kraniodesign4555 well now you're criticizing a claim that wasn't made. Terryl merely pointed out that the book of Mormon has more copies in distribution than any other American author. That is true as far as I can tell. If you want to argue about how influential the book has been that's another discussion. So it's not the same diff
@Russhopper then why mention it at all? the only reason to mention something like that is to provide evidence for some kind of credibility.
@@kraniodesign4555 why don't you ask Terryl why he brought it up? ;) But my point is that his statement is true so I felt it worthwhile to defend him against your criticism
It is interesting how he disparages the God of the gap theory, and then promptly uses the same logic to claim the veracity of the book of Mormon. Joseph couldn’t have done it so it had to come from God. The whole mood of the interview felt dismissive.
Jk Rowling is British I think
That's what I thought too
It is interesting how he disparages the God of the gaps theory, and then promptly uses the same logic to claim the veracity of the book of Mormon. Joseph couldn’t have done it so it had to come from God. The whole mood of the interview felt dismissive.