Answering Your Questions on Spokes & Interlacing | Between Two Wheels #1
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- Опубліковано 13 лис 2023
- You asked and we answered! In a sit-down discussion, Calvin & Truman answer questions on spokes and interlacing found in the UA-cam comments on their wheel-building series.
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I would appreciate an episode like this about twist lacing.
Or clown bike shoes. Or lowrider suspension. Any of those useful and engineeringly sophisticated things.
When I worked for a bicycle manufacturer I tested lateral stiffness of several wheels. One time I tested a set of 24-spoke mountain bike wheels, then re-laced them with interlacing and re-tested. The results were really close, probably within the margin of error, but the non-interlaced wheels were stiffer.
This was great! I feel like you covered a lot of nuance and discussion that would have detracted from your more instructional videos.
I look forward to more!
On spoke prep - I worked in a bike shop as a teen, and the owner built custom wheels. He put anti seize on the spoke threads, laced up the wheel, rode it, re- tensioned it, then cleaned up any extra anti seize on the spokes and nipples before putting a dab of clear nail polish on the junction. Once the nail polish was dry the wheels were ready to be delivered to the customer.
junction - is that where the nipples meet the spokes, or where the nipple meets the rim?
I do the same, except instead of nail polish I use blue thread locker.
@@oftankoftan it was where nipples meet spokes.
anti-seize is great as long as you want to deal with that stuff getting all over everything.
Do you guys even know what you’re talking about? I’ve been doing it 30 some years I’ve never heard of that.
At my shop we’ve always used spoke prep which is nice because two different colors allow you to sort of mark your left and right side spokes so it’s easier to avoid mistakes. Lately though I’ve been using Stan’s no tubes spoke powder to prep my spokes because it is so easy to apply to all the spokes at once and even easy to clean off the excess in the hub entry area or at the rim when it’s finished. I usually finish my wheels if they are for a heavier rider with a dab of loc tite at the end of the nipple and spin the wheel to get it to move into the edge of the threads. I focus more on an evenly tensioned wheel and the correct spoke count to avoid wheels coming loose. Understanding that rim damage or even a loose spoke can compromise tension with the rest of the rim is also important. And naturally hops or dips in the build or rim condition will put high and low areas on the lull balance of the overall wheel causing those areas to either move or fatigue and break much sooner.
I can do almost everything on my bike but wheel building was always a thing I was afraid of. I did it finally and Id love to get educated more. Thank you guys.
Seeing this video after making some bomb proof 48h, 4 cross, over over under over polo wheels, and wanting to go to 36h after.
Easiest way to calculate spoke lengths using a asymmetric rim and a hub with straight pull spokes please 🙏
What are the special considerations when building small 16" and 20" wheels like those found on recumbents and folders? Especially wheels using large hubs like drum brakes or IGH hubs? The spokes look so short it seems like it would be impossible to get tension right.
I first time I saw
the Shimano pattern of lacing on a wheel I was puzzled. Glad I know the thought behind it.
00:45 finally you showed properly placed blue spokes:spoke in , head out,,,, for right side of rear wheel
Great video. Thanks for all the tips!
One thing I noticed building my first (and so far only) wheelset is that it was easier to build and true the 32 spoke 3-cross (interlaced) rear than it was the 28 spoke radial front. In the end, both came out true with good balanced tension, but I spent a lot more time fiddling with the front wheel, especially trying to get the tension across all the spokes balanced.
I've had a SRAM NX Eagle cassette rub slightly on a wheel that was not interlaced. It ticked when freewheeling, so had to rebuild with an interlace.
I once had a problem because of not interlacing. I used Sun M14A 650c rims, DT Swiss spokes, and large-flange French hubs which were private-labeled for Schwinn back in the 70s. These were 36-spoke wheels, laced in a 4-cross, built for my 1954 Schwinn Corvette, the first Schwinn middleweight model, with 26 x 1 3/4 tires, with BSD of 571 mm. A couple of rides rendered the rear wheel completely loose, wobbling going down the road! I relaced the wheels to the woven (interlaced) configuration, and they stay tight! There is something to the theory of the spokes de-tensioning while rolling under load.
Also, interlaced spokes push each other into the hub flanges, reducing the stress at the elbows of the spokes. Other than keeping the spokes from falling out during lacing, the spokes don't actually need to have heads at the elbows. This also makes it possible to use an over-long spoke to replace a broken spoke by cutting the head off and bending it at an appropriate length. A bend which forms an angle slightly tighter than 90⁰ works well.
As a fairly novice wheel builder, interlacing really fascinate me. Iam amazed that there is just here say no actual proof about interlacing. It would be nice if you guys could test at least that protentional lateral stiffness benefit of interlacing. It should be pretty simple test with some weights and measurements. It would be nice to have at least some real example.
Thanks for amazing and informative videos as always.
Once again, very informative. Always a good source for bike repair related info. On the interlace subject, seems to me that if the spokes are in contact with each other at a point somewhere between the hub and the rim, the complete wheel would have to be measurably more rigid, at least side to side. I tend to doubt the average bike rider pushes a wheel even close to its physical limits, so data regarding the useful life may not be a good data point to track. But if just about every wheel builder goes through the extra trouble to interlace, there must be a reason.
Nice Video, for now I can publish a complete CAD-model of a front--wheel without interlacing, since I modeled it without. I allways wondered about the purpose of interlacing.
My favorite is to use the “Secure Lock” nipples (with a dimple in the threads) and marine grade anti-seize on the threads.
Interesting. I had to go out and look at the spokes on my touring bike and my tandem. My touring bike has a two-cross 36h front and a three-cross 40h rear. The tandem has a two-cross 40h front and a three-cross 48h rear rim. They are interlaced on both bikes, with the tandem having the high-flange hubs. I broke one spoke many years ago on the touring bike rear many years ago. The only time that has happened since I bought the bike in 1981. Upgraded to a modern-style tandem rear hub on the touring bike that accepts the new style cassette gear assembly. Nice video explaining the differences in lacing.
Radial throws the Best shadows
super nice video..
Thank you so much for this video. When I raced in Track, we used to tie the third cross with a small wire. Few loops on each third cross. The wheels got incredibly stiff, important in track, to avoid the front wheels bend in the steep curve. That was the theory. What do you think about this, is this still something in use, I have not seen anything like this again.
asymmetrical and symmetrical spoke lacing system, I have done this way a few times. Seems to have no great issues. Seems a bit more concenration is needed.
Which pattern is more straightforward to repair while out on the road? The ideal would seem to be radial, although that is not advisable with disc brakes, as you point out, and possibly not for rear wheels either. The more crossed spokes seem to add to the complexity in replacing a spoke on the road. Could you demonstrate best practices on replacing a broken spoke? Without removing the tire or the tape?
Are there best practices for stressing/destressing the wheel when building? Does pulling parallel spokes words each other do anything useful other than confusing other mechanics?
I had a set of wheel that were delivered on my new bike that basically unthreaded themselves on their first ride. Should've reached out to the company for a warranty, but I always tend to like working on my own bikes. Retightened the nipples hand tight (I only had a cheap truing stand and spoke wrench available to me), they started to unthread again. Bought a park tool tension meter, tightened to the lower end of my guess for the spec, based on other wheel's specs, because these wheels didn't have them available. Still it unthreaded, but a little slower now. Higher end of the guessed spec, still unthreading. Was worried my threads and nipples were getting damaged, going through so many tightenings and maybe violent unthreadings. Then I started to read about spoke prep. Ultimately linseed oil + tensioning to the higher end of the guessed spec did the trick.
How about comfort from greater cross and lacing?
Good question, we should have mention that. The stiffness of the wheel comes from of course the tire, then the rim itself. The cross pattern will not make it "softer" or flex more.
linseed oil is my goto, it lubes for a day or 3 then becomes locktight allow you a day or two to tweak the trueing after stressing the wheel.
Boiled linseed oil can spontaneously combust, be very careful with your oily rags
Talk about myths, back in the mid 80's, I built up some race wheels (tubs), 36 hole, 3x in front, and 4x in back (large flange hubs), because I read that a 36 hole,4x rear wheel was stronger, and you could crash on it, and the wheel would be fine.
My '71 Schwinn's ( Sports Tourer and Super Sport ), were 4 cross. My mechanic suggested 3 cross on my stainless steel spoke upgrade. You guys agree?
Pretty good discussion gentlemen. What I noticed is that there is a small tension difference btw the inner and outer spokes when not interlacing. Interlacing makes the tensions all the same. So on the nds, where tensions are already low, the inner flange spokes are going to be even lower. I usually interlace for this reason.
On 28h wheels, 2x will experience twice the stress on the spokes during disc braking compared to 3x. But 2x will have slightly more lateral stiffness. This was explored in Henri P. Gavin paper on bicycle wheels, which all wheel builders might want to read. So I prefer 3x on my disc builds with 28h, as disc braking creates by far the most torsional stress on a wheel compared to drive stress. With 32h, 3x is of course preferred every time.
15:52 put nipples into wd40 , and it will vanish after truing, and then put a drop of rubber glue on nipple head and rim and it will keep it firm and it allows additional adjustment
Is that an old Schwinn derailleur demo set up on the back shelf? We had one in the shop I worked in in the late 70's.
Good eye! That one comes from the bike shop we were founded in - Hazel Park Cycle Center in St.Paul, MN.
That caught my eye too! Nice to see these reminders of the days when few folks were familiar with derailleurs. I suppose now you could use it to show how to shift without batteries?? 😀
@@SkyhawkSteve Batteries and motors shifting gears for people how lazy is that? I am actually doing a retro setup on my old custom frame. It will have friction DT shifters. I may have problems finding cables with ends that fit the shifter holes.
@@scottsutoob I've still got 5 bikes with downtube shifters, but it's been a while since I've replaced any cables. Check Rivendell or Velo-Orange for cables, maybe.
I've come across wheels from customers where some of the spokes are interlaced, and some aren't. Do you think this is something that needs correcting?
For me, it would increase the job from 15 minutes replacing a spoke, to over an hour by interlacing every spoke.
Bear in mind it's on slower commuter bikes, not on sport bikes.
Almost every bike I've seen this on is 3-cross.
I would think this happened when someone forgot the interlace when replacing a single spoke. I do not think it is crucial to fix this, but if you bring it to your customers attention they may want it fixed so that it's all the same.
After what time that the wheel has been build should the tension of the spokes be rechecked?
If you went through some good de-stressing cycles during the build the wheel should be good to go but a good rule to follow is to check tension after a month of riding.
14:05 rear wheel can not brake too hard because all weight goes to front wheel
How do I stop water getting in through the spoke holes on my carbon rims & rotting my CX tubs from the inside?
It might be easier to think about how to get it out....rims often will have a drain hole. Be sure it's clear of debris and exists.
So I had a friend bring me a wheel. Rear disc brake.
It was true but dished way to the non drive side.
I dished it up pretty good but the drive side spokes were definitely on the tight end of the range and the non drive side where on the loose set of the range.
Is the spoke length off on one side?
Should the drive side be a tad shorter?
Rim tension is usually lower on the non drive side unless you have an offset rim. The max tension of the rim manufacturer should not be exceeded on the drive side and usually the recommended tension of the non drive side is just whatever follows to allow the wheel to be tru while the drive side is near but not above recommended maximum.
Did the wheel come off of a cannondale? Some of those bikes require the wheel to be dished to the non drive side. Check of “ai” stickers on the chain stays or seat stays.
Drive side spokes are the higher tension spokes on a rear wheel, except on the rare occasion spokes are evenly tensioned.
Spoke length does not affect tension unless all of the spokes on that side of the wheel are too long and bottomed out on the nipples. It sounds like on the wheel you worked on this is not the case.
Drive side spokes of a rear wheel are usually 1-2mm shorter that non drive. Like everything, there are rare exceptions to this, but they’re rare.
@atreyuwings is correct, spoke length will not effect tension. There will be higher tension on the drive side than non drive side and you build to the desired tension on the drive side. The non drive side is kinda along for the ride. There are companies that run asymmetric rear wheels so be careful when re-dishing. Cannondale is currently calling it Ai.
I agree with Shimano on disc brake specific lacing and use it. 40h and 48h cross 4, 32h and 36h cross three, 24h and 28h 2 cross.
24h and 28h two is fine when interlaced .
No need to lubricate the threads when using brass nipples, brass is a self lubricating metal.
Be very careful with boiled linseed oil, it's a fire hazard because it can and does spontaneously combust.
13:15 not good, it is opposed , and most loaded spoke (blue) is outside , it has bigger angle of deformation and it is exposed to chain to cut it if skips over first gear
Tied and soldered spokes?
Good fun! We will visit this down the road a bit.
4x= 9--7,, 3x=7--5,,, 2x=5--3,,, 1x=3--1, explanation: 3 crosses means 7 holes between parallel spokes(put spoke in hole and count 7 holes and put other spoke in 7. hole), 3 holes between crossed spokes
Shimano lacing never made sense intuivly but sho knows what the testing says
I would love to see your comments and how you would build a wheel with berd spokes.
That may come up down the line!
I use motor oil on spokes and nipples.
Check how Azor builds wheels
🤩👋🙌🙌💪🤗🙂🌞
Clearly the solution is Nylock Nipples.
Spoke lacing use to be all about the tradeoff between stiffness and building a little bit more compliance into the wheel. I picked up a project MTB with an odd set of wheels. The rear was junk but someone built up a narrow 26" rim laced 2 cross on a Cyclone 36H hub. I can see no logical reason why anyone would build up an MTB wheel in 2 cross. Way too stiff and your just asking to break spokes. Maybe someone out there can school me on this practice.
😢
Jobst Brandt is turning in his grave.