Why you should care about the Scottsdale auctions, Scottsdale Special - The Carmudgeon Show - Ep. 12
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- Опубліковано 19 січ 2020
- We’ve just spent the week in Scottsdale, Arizona for the annual collector-car auction spectacular, visiting the auctions put on by Gooding & Company, Bonhams, Barrett-Jackson, Russo and Steele, RM Southebys, and Leake. In this special episode of the Carmudgeon Show, filmed on location in Scottsdale, Jason Cammisa and Derek Tam-Scott discuss why these auctions are important even to car nerds who aren’t big-dollar collectors.
Now that the Radwood-era cars are finally getting recognition (how about a Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.5-16 Evolution II selling for $434,000?), are we witnessing a generational shift in the auctions? After all, a Mercedes 6.3 sold for less than a tenth as much. And are the “blue-chip” mega-expensive investment-grade cars like the Mercedes 300SL Gullwing in trouble when things like a GMC Typhoon show up at auction? Why are the special double-washers that hold the seats into a Porsche 911 Carrera 2.7 RS just as important as the yellow-stitched seatbelts?
We get a look into Hyphen’s massive encyclopedic knowledge on this episode as we take a closer look at a bunch of cool cars, rough cars, beautiful cars, and very expensive cars. But when less than 5% of collector cars are traded in public, live auctions, what do these sale prices really mean? And what do they really mean for the rest of us?
The Carmudgeon Show is a comedic, information-filled 25-minute conversation with Jason Cammisa and Derek Tam-Scott, two car enthusiasts who are curmudgeonly beyond their years. Proving you don’t have to be old to be grumpy, they spend each episode talking about what’s wrong with various parts of the automotive universe. Despite their best efforts to keep it negative, they usually wind up laughing, happy, and extolling their love for cars. Which just makes them angrier and more bitter.
Jason Cammisa is an automotive journalist, social-media figure, and TV host with over 250 million views on UA-cam alone. Jason’s deeply technical understanding, made possible by a lifelong obsession with cars, allows him to fully digest what’s going on within an automobile - and then put it into simple terms for others to understand. Also, a Master’s Degree in Law trained him to be impossible to argue with.
Derek Tam-Scott still tries. He’s a young automotive expert with old-man taste in cars, and a Master’s Degree in Civil Engineering - which means he knows how to be civil to Jason. Or at least he tries. With a decade and a half’s experience buying, selling, driving and brokering classic and exotic cars, he’s experienced the world’s most iconic cars. And hated most of them.
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I love how long these have been recently! Keep up the great work you guys!
Dammit, I wanted to keep these short; there you go making more work for us! Haha, thank you!
@@JasonCammisa We know you love the sound of your voice, so it's a win/win.
Pro tip : you can watch movies on flixzone. Been using them for watching loads of movies during the lockdown.
@Kylo Ramon Yup, have been watching on flixzone for months myself :)
@@AlumarsX lol
I love how your shows are interesting yet also a bit educational at the same time. You guys are awesome. 👍👌
Having never been to an auction, it was interesting to hear about the realities. Your description of Barrett-Jackson as a county fair I thought was hilarious. Never been, but I thought, "Yeah...I could totally see that."
This is my new favorite podcast to listen to while I'm at work, working to get enough in the bank to go to an auction with buying power only to walk through 1500 cars like Jason and not feel inclined to buy any of them :)
Your Carmudgeon vids are really coming together. I’m truly enjoying watching them, thanks in no small part to that on-screen chemistry between Derek and Jason. Keep up the good work!
love you guys, please keep on delivering awesome automotive conversation
Thanks, we'll try!
The longer the better because your not having to focus on time. Keep up the good work!
Derek Flag-hyphen-boy
yeah, the hyphen is usually silent, but not for Derek
This is humor. Good humor
I discovered this channel a couple days ago and it made my day. Jason was my favourite MT presenter since his first GT350 video and was sad to see him go, though as the whole MTOD thing is going I totally get it. Then after two years this appears out of the blue and has the only car talk show I’ve found worth watching.
Evo 2 190e is a collector's 'bucket list' car as its soo soo rare now and a Homologation special... Great engineering masterclass and looks amazing:-)
Truly enjoyed hearing everything that flowed out of these guys along with short shots from the auctions. Spontaneity and obsessive passion. Putting a trip to Scottsdale on my bucket list. 👍🏼
This talk about auctions reminds me of the The Grand Tour episode with 'The Excellent.'
This is brilliant, it connects so many dots. I've generally been mystified by the auction world, but have recently grown to understand the British side of it a bit through Harry's Garage. When it comes to the idea of well-off people horse-trading and brokering their ~dozen personal cars, I'm really quite warm and fuzzy about all that! But this podcast, to me, mostly touches on the ridiculous, absurd, even heinous side of car collecting: enough wealth to buy market influence (one of a million contemporary signs that huge wealth inequality is, in fact, a thing), backroom pre-arranged deals, stupidly overpaid and pompous middlemen...give me a break! I'm glad there's a sea change in generation happening; I hope the next generation keeps things more genuine instead of going down their predecessors' path.
thank you, this podcast is getting really good week by week.
Thanks for a truly insightful discussion. Keep them coming, please.
Thank you, this was really insightful and interesting.
Your videos keep getting better. A great conversation on the state of auctions in a beige yard where dreams go to die.
artoo45 jeez, that’s incredibly accurate and incredibly depressing simultaneously...
What an enjoyable insight to the car auction world.
I f'ing love these podcasts. Your discussion about 300SL Gull Wings reminds of Mr Leno's specimen. It is far from perfect condition, with a gorgeous patina on the peeling paint. It's value would not be that of a concourse winner, but he decided not to restore it. I guess it might have some additional celebrity value given it belongs to him, but maybe not. I think his car looks perfect.
Very good representation of what auctions are and what they have been.
VERY interesting to learn about the sudden and dramatic price increases at auction. Plus, that 190E 2.5-16! Good god!
Man, i miss these two.
Great episode as usual guys. Learned a lot 👌
Just made my morning commute a bit more bearable!
Wait a sec...Derek is in his 30s? Are you joking? I thought he was my age, about 20-25.
BB I don’t know you but I love you.
Best "podcast?" show ever...
These videos are great. Really enjoying the content that Issimi is putting out.
Benito De Santis me too!
I must say I enjoy listening to these immensly on podcasts! But have grown mad at myself for not watching the great little extra bits of video and pictures that the videos have with them, might have to rewatch on video after listening to them!
I don’t even care about this topic, but I watched all of it. Good discussion.
Another great episode
Hearing about those price jumps at auctions was very interesting!
Great show
Good stuff!
Thank god you guys got over the 20 minute limit
It amazes me what cars are "worth". I was watching a Mecum auction. A 1965 L88 Corvette sold for 1.7 million. And, sadly, no one will ever see it and enjoy it.
FYI, it would have had to be a 67 L88. That is only year C2 with that engine option. And I believe they only made 20 67 L88’s. Many were used for racing too as it was the most powerful package available, so likely less than those 20 remain.
@@dipren443 Mecum said it was a 65, supposedly the very first L88 Corvette.
WikdSeafood Do some digging. There are folks in the corvette field that are experts and they have documented most or all of the cars out there. there are rumors of test cars built in 66. Nothing about anything in 65. Id call bs on mecum in this case if they actually said that.
Good talk guys
Never in my life have I enjoyed 2 grown men I don’t know sitting at a table talking about random car stuff. Jason Sadler can do no wrong
interesting talk, thanks. I don't believe for a second however that Jason has now come of age. Screw low-miles and screw Van Gogh-like ferraris, I'm more than enjoying my 460.000kms E30 325i RWD touring with LSD :)
I feel that completely screw the perfect example I'm too busy having fun with my 300,000 mile multicolored mid-90s cabriolet that gets driven like it's stolen half the time
Love the Insight that you guys are conveying on the auction car auction scene would like to hear more speak about Japanese cars in the Acura NSX for 1
Guys please make these more
I've been to a few auctions only to see the cars. It's a real shame that most collectors are speculators and will never drive the cars they buy I had a 68' mustang gt convertible that I owned for 20+ years and rarely drove it, I was obsessed with it's value. . now that I'm older, and thinking about my own mortality, I realize that I'm not taking anything with me .I now own a 2012 mustang gt 6 speed and will drive the hell out of it! I'll be dammed if I am going to leave it in perfect condition for the next guy to enjoy. Remember, no matter what you drive , you are only the caretaker and you're leaving it to the next guy. So, use it up!
Concerning the Merc 2.5 Evo - yes the exhaust temperature light is indeed a Japanese market thing. My Alfa Romeo 155 V6, which is also a Japanese market import, has an exhaust temperature sensor post-cat that is absent in the European cars.
Phew, glad I didn't just make that up or anything... lol
41:25 I blew my phone and then tried to brush the fleck off my screen... You got me.
After /DRIVE stopped. This is another good logical car talk. Can we do one episode on 25 year old japenese car imports and it’s monopoly.
I will say the Evo body kit adds an entire other level of hilarity to the 2.3 16
I used to work the main tent @ Bonhams at the US car auctions (Specialist for a non-car dept)... but haven't worked for them in several years; too bad, I would have liked to meet you guys.
Wow.. never really thought about auctions like this.. the spectacle, the total divorce from reality.. thanks for the eye-opening episode, fellas.
Sciroccos are cool.
Yes, they are. They are fun and simple. Going around corners on three wheels gets looks every time. Preferably not looks from police....
Manual and Euro spec on the 280se also adds to the appeal.
If I was Hagerty, I would think it be very important that I could justify every valuation with facts. To be considered useful they need to have a reputation based on a repeatable process, rather than what somebody on a forum thinks. They will absolutely be wrong in some cases, but net they'll be way ahead. If we don't think our cars will bring the right price at an open auction, we can always sell them within that car's community. I think 944s are worth more than Hagerty tends to think, and I'd get more with the right buyers, but Hagerty needs to be able to explain their process for it to have value.
Love the Pink Floyd Money duo
Woot!
Yoo I love Dark Side Of The Moon
You guys invented a time machine
You made 50mins seem like 5
I was like wtf is it over already
Calling him hyphen Scott, reminds me of a funny story about Rx7s. My mechanic pal told me an older non car guy was asking him ?s about it while referring to it as an R times 7 or 8 in some cases. Today, we forever refer to them as an R times 7.
😍
🤣
+1. Great topic and discussion. .. “How repeatable” I’ll practice that line of thought on the Frau.
.. But the coupe For Sale is not Very repeatable. .. It’s an opportunity...... ‘98 993 C2S one owner...... blah, blah. .. Nice episode gents.
A county fair, gun show, car show, and MAGA rally all under one roof..damn I really need to go to Scottsdale that sounds awesome!
Extra patination haha
I deal with the exact same type of absurd descriptions as the auction books in the wine and spirit industry. Lots of fluff. Did either of you get to see the copper bodied cobra? Curious how it looked up close.
Cars are meant to be driven. The way they scream when they are driven hard, the feel they reward you with in every successful turn, in every slide, at every jump...
Sorry but I think the next recession will forever deflate the values of all these cars, recovery will be tough due to aging demographics and debt...
Agreed. Any car maintaining its valuation due to boomers will tank and stay tanked
unless all the rich children of these rich boomers just continue the cycle. maybe the only way it collapses properly is if the coming super rich generation just arent into cars... thats when it's over.
The children of the rich usually seen to care about instagram cars
@@owenrodgers8020 I'd say the personality of the cars would also play into it. I'd say something like a Countach or a 190E Evo II would be somewhat safe, though also depreciating (because let's be honest, that Mercedes is worth $100K tops) will be less affected than cars like e.g. an 190 SL or a Daytona or 350 GT. If it doesn't really appeal to young people now, it most likelt won't in the future.
@@owenrodgers8020 the children of the rich want lamborghinis and F80 M3s. They don't want classics.
I'd want a pristine 1985 MR2 (electric blue, please) and/or Gen2 CRX Si
Dark blue R30 skyline for me please
Gen 2 CRX Si is what I want
For me, the most entertaining car related channel. Period. Jason, why don't YOU take your shirt off??...
Omg it’s Jason Camisa.
The bring a trailer etc have made stupid high car prices standard. Its also prevented me from buying a used porsche with average paint and a bunch of miles.
W116 350SE is my first car, and I never hear talk about it, and it's so strong and drives so awesome with the 2,7 turns steering.
190E drift is what driving fun is all about, then how can you enjoy the Scirocco and other non rwd cars
Pretty closed minded thing to say, that you can't enjoy FWD cars. I think having driven a 205 GTI and a Mk1 Golf Cab, they've got to be the most fun cars I've ever experienced.
@@Adam-eo5ff If You don't get RWD nobody can explain
@@G55STEYR Oh I absolutely love skidding RWD shit around, and the handling balance that comes because of it. I'm just saying the most fun I've had was throwing a 205 GTI down a back road and not sliding Silvia out of corners.
It’s a rich man’s game or racket by another definition ...if you don’t have the money to play then don’t get in the game...and if you don’t make it a full time profession you’ll never be happy or lucky. Enjoy the cars for the cars sake and forget the rest.
Jason I agree with your sentiment on these auctions but the 190E Evo II is a bad example. Obviously that car would sell for that amount. All the crazy auctions in the last 5 years are either the final death throws of the "classics" ie. 300SL, or millennial's finally having money for their dream cars ie Evo II's or F50's or E39 M5s selling for 190k. I dont think these values will hold forever but its no different than the mid 2000's when Hemi Cuda's were regularly selling for 1M+
What do you guys think about W216 CL550 to CL65 Mercedes Benz?
CL65? Never. But the rest of them? Nice, fast, comfy luxo-barges with impressively tiny rear seats!
How does Derek just know everything ?
Guys - great discussion but hard to listen to because HYPHEN's microphone is twice as loud as Jason's. H makes a good point: A perfect car with low mileage= WTF do you do with it?...You can't drive it because you'll depreciate it. ALWAYS PAY UP for quality and service records on an old car because it's cheaper. Labor is a fortune and parts are sometimes hard to come by.
When the difference between a $200,000 and $300,000 car is mileage, like say, on a Ford GT, it escapes me why you would pay so much more for a 500 mile one. I guess at that point it's an investment, and no one will get the pleasure of driving it, or driving it just a few miles and thinking about what each mile is doing to the value. Not a tasty recipe for a car guy.
can you guys please increase the loudness of these episodes? they're super quiet compared to other videos
“Floating at the bottom of a lake.” -Jason. What?!?
If it's at the bottom of a lake, it's certainly not floating!
Love the video, love curmudgeon, so much learn.
FIAT X1/9 - next hot auction car! haha... won't happen. still, one of the best 70's cars to drive
I really want to know why someone "thumbs down" these videos. well done- fat guys in Hawaiian shirts won't be guiding the collecting in the future- it'll be hipster bearded types.
So, considering this phenomenon of undercut values based on unfortunate public record, what are the top 5 cars you would consider to be vastly undervalued? I may just attend an auction soon...
That's a question for Derek more than me. But I feel like most 80s-90s compact imports are severely undervalued - but the trends point out to them about to pop. Hello, CRX first-gen.
@@JasonCammisa It's funny you say that; I was recently looking at CRXs on AutoTempest and I was amazed by how high the prices were, at least in my area. Gone are the days of the $1200 (well-running) CRX.
Couple of different things at play here. There are cars that are undervalued and of those, only some are undervalued due to an unfortunate/incomplete public records. Cars like that publicly come up for sale infrequently and all the recent data that actually reflects the current market needs to be non-public. This was the case in Jason's Scirocco example.
The moment the cars start selling publicly (whether at live auction, on Bring a Trailer, or on eBay) and the data makes it to the price guide people, they are no longer undervalued because of the public sale record. But they could be undervalued in the market for other reasons.
I think lots of cars are undervalued given what you get for the money: R129 Mercedes SL, non-Evo Cosworth Mercedes 190s, Alfa GTV6, maybe transaxle Porsches still a bit, an early Boxster is a hell of a lot of car for the money, a nice BMW 6-cylinder manual E36 (M or not), probably plenty of Japanese cars that I don't know much about. C4 ZR1s and first gen Vipers seem inexpensive for how much of a statement they make. But lots of public data exists for these cars. With the advent of Bring a Trailer, there's public data available for esoteric cars now. The number of cars where you say "wow, I've never seen one of these on BaT before" gets smaller and smaller.
@@JasonCammisa the 1st gens really? YUCK🤮
I would say cars like the Spirit RT, Thunderbird SC manual (94/95), SVO Mustangs, Manual transmission ZJ Grand Cherokees, ACR Neons and SRT4s, 2 door long wheelbase wranglers, anything with a VR4, anything with an Si badge.
Question: from current generation of cars (in production now) that are below $100k, which do you think will become collectible? Cayman GTS, Mustang GT350/500, Lexus LC500 (although it’s $105k ish), Camaro ZL1/1LE, Dodge Hellcat, C7? Cayman GT4 is also just outside $100k
Maybe the Hellcat, because of what it represents and what it has done for Dodge. Other than that, I do not see any collectibles there, IMHO.
I think its design, low sales volume, NA V8 engine, and quality of build will help LC 500 become collectible. Agree that Hellcat should eventually become collectible. But high volume of sales should keep valuation in check.
Both Mustangs will be collectible, the last Camaro Z28, hellcat, and the Cayman gt4. The others arent that special.
Hellcat Redeye are quite rare especially when compared with the rest of the Hellcats. GT350/500 will certainly make their mark. Camaro may issue a new Z28 before end of production 2023. Alpha platform will be 'killed'. No news on any new Camaro after 2023. ZL1 1LE will make the list from all Camaro. Cayman GT4 may, but because there are GT3 and GT2, will be the least demanded one. However, for any Porsche maniac, having the GT/918, GT2 RS, GT3 RS, and a GT4... well full house.
Don't bother with Lexus, unless it's the LFA. RCF or LC500 is nothing but a small milestone. The M3/4/5/6/8 are falling behind the M2 in terms of demand and desirability. Typically if a vehicle is made to only bring customers generally and not for the sake of enthusiasts, it falls short of everything. Remember that 190E was a master piece, and the rest of AMG built to replace it were only there to supply a demand, yet the built quality was only temporary; therefore they are fairly cheap used.. though I would bank on a 6.3L V8 C-class coupe. That may make its mark.
A collectible car's value pretty much always depends on originality and mileage, right? Right. But a car is a piece of kinetic art. A huge part of its charm involves motion, i.e. you have to drive it and therefore put miles on it to experience its full artistic beauty. A car that does not get driven might as well be a Faberge egg or a sculpture. This fundamental conflict drives me crazy. I hate it. I'd love to own, say, a Ferrari 288 GTO, for example. But the tension, the internal conflict and struggle, I would feel anytime I pondered driving it, I'm sure would ruin the experience.
Michael Lorenson agree very much. Buy the highest mileage (but also well-maintained) one you can find, then drive it. It will also be one of the least expensive. Win-win!
DTS the 67 year old guy stuck in a 20 year old body is cool too I guess
In my opinion; prices at these auctions have gotten way out of control. Well over 10 years ago I remember somebody paid six figures for Anne Amphicar. Just one example, and things have gotten crazier since. This will not end well. Especially when the people who care about these muscle cars start dying off. Amazing to me that somebody pays the kind of money they do for what is the old equivalent of a modern Chevy cavalier.
Everybody passing around these cars hoping to make more money each time they sell them. History shows us that this only works until it stops
Wait until the people who prefer manual transmissions can't pass a vision test. Manuals currently enjoy a premium in value. I have a feeling that will not always be the case.
Doug Robinson well that may continue as new cars are no longer being sold with manuals it will create a finite and ever decreasing number of desirable manual cars in the world.
I've been saying Jason camissa, matt farar and Harry from Harry's garage should be the presenters for top gear
Wont buy a car without a PPI
Seems to me these auctions and collectors screwed it up for the normal guy, and if they're now paying the price for inflating collect car values into the stratosphere it's hard to feel sympathetic towards them. $300,000 for an old Mercedes, millions for a 60's Hemi car? Really?
Dude
Review some cars. What you’re good at!
Exactly, car auctions for expensive cars are mostly for willy waving. You buy a car despite the 20% premium. You put it in your garage to tell people you spent that much money because you have the greatest old car in the world. Or, you're the guy who buys multiple examples of say cars, and you bolster your own ego by telling people, nowadays these cars are now worth X amount of dollars and how great of an investor you are.
To be fair, there are those who slip in and try to get a good deal on a car they like. Recently a P1 sold for just $1 mill, and a Laferrari sold for like $2 mill. A far cry from their hay-days. If you just want to have one and drive, you don't want the most sot after low-milage one. You want a decent one for a good price.
6:15, indeed Tesla is vastly overvalued, it also happens to be ran be a charlatan.
Great discussion, but what's up with Americans and the use of "like" four times in a sentence....
I, like, umm, don't, like know.
@@JasonCammisa lol
Really, you want to start a game of culture-bashing? Where are YOU from?
Here is a tip......how about you film the cars your talking about and show them in detail in order to illustrate your discussion going on. So normal guys, like me, can follow your conversation. A picture is worth a 1000 words. Much is lost with the both of you trying to be the smartest car guy in the room. Ego is not your Amigo ...........seriously
They why this show is good, because you have 2 people with crazy amounts of obscure knowledge