Fixed point belay: belay methods
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- Опубліковано 15 лип 2024
- This is part three of three videos where I take a deep dive into the very advanced skill of directly belaying your lead climber off of the anchor. There's a lot to it and a lot to go wrong if you make the wrong choice, so please seek qualified instruction before attempting this on your own!
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The hybrid is really smart. Never thought of that you could put a munter hitch inbetween your belay device and first pro!
Some quibbles with the details: I believe the entire group of links below the bolts should be bypassed, in favor of direct clips to the bolts, both with locking biners, laying above the fixed chains, to minimize risks of unknown fixed links. That way the links can be independently used to rappel, unaffected by the belay setup, either for this team or another that may arrive. I also think the girth hitch master point system (with magic X twist) allows more equalization adjustment, and is cleaner and less confusing than the huge quad knot as used here. Not wrong, but more bulky.
Solid video!!!!! I've been using a pre-rigged mini quad tied out of 5.5mm power cord for routes with bolted anchors. totally rethinking that portion of the rack now!
6.3k subscribers!? Hot damn. You've come a long way! FWIW, I don't think BD sells those magnetrons anymore. I can't seem to find them anywhere. I'm glad I picked up a couple when I did a few years ago.
The idea of stripping the sheath (8:05) raises a question outside of fixed-point-belays. E.g. with a grigri off the belay loop. If the belayer is attached to the anchor with a PAS, the grigri probably sees the same force as in your colleague's test. If the belayer is clove-hitched in with the rope, the force is reduced, but would the clove hitch desheath the rope ? I'm guessing a new rope in perfect condition is fine either way. But with worn ropes, it's not clear which anchor attachment would be safer.
Climber based in phoenix here, but also do a lot of stuff in WA (would say probably intermediate-ish level). Recently started foraying into rope soloing (TR & lead) and found your content super helpful. Would definitely be interested to go out with you sometime to work on rope skills & techniques!
How do you perform a safe and ergonomic fixed point belay with half ropes? Can you do this with munter hitches or do you need to use a belay device?
Most of the time, when people are using double ropes they’ll go for a Munter hitch on a really good sized locker. You could make the redirected plate work, but that may be a little annoying, it seems like for the sake of ease the munter is the way to go.
Can you use a grigri with fixed point belay? Thanks for the videos.
No, you don't want to use any assisted breaking device for fixed point belaying, the reason is they found with drop tests that the rope sheath was stripped from the aggressive camming action. Right now the only approved belay methods are passive devices like an ATC, or a Munter hitch.
Sooooo, let’s get this straight. You’re setting up an “equalised” system and then ignoring this and putting a direct belay onto a single point snap gate?? This makes no sense whatsoever. Are you even aware this is what you’ve done? In fact all your videos are demonstrating a non existent understanding of equalisation.
The ENSA system you refer to is definitely not the preferred method in Europe, just one, but anyway, you are constructing it wrongly. It does require BOTH anchors to be equalised correctly. Which as you correctly say is not a good option when the bolts are side by side, so don’t use it! Use a method that correctly equalises the system, this is an essential part of correct belay construction.
See ENSA Chamonix, should l change the way I belay, 5.20 onwards.
ua-cam.com/video/eqZQnCGl24A/v-deo.html
You brought up some good points, but when we use this specific technique we are expecting all the force of a fall to go onto one piece in the anchor system. I have another video that talks about the different ways to build three different anchors with, here's the link if you want to check it out: ua-cam.com/video/gYMdQoE0Y1M/v-deo.html
All of these different anchor constructions involve putting the force onto one piece of the anchor even though some accomplish equalization a little better than other systems. In the end though the highest fall forces that are being put onto the anchor are in the even of your lead climber taking a factor two fall which all gets absorbed onto one piece of protection. If you have the opportunity it's good to have some equalization for that force on the anchor, and I plan to make some more videos about different anchor configurations in the future, but for this series of videos I wanted to show the most common and basic setups. The ENSA system (not sure if that's the specific name for it but most of the professionals in America just happen to call it that.) Could be the one that achieves the least amount of equalization for a horizontal configuration and would be great when you have diagonal offset bolts but just because they showed that as an option in the video doesn't mean it's the only configuration that you are allowed to set it up in.
You could even argue for the sake of avoiding a high shock load that a horizontal setup would be better because when you have an upward pull onto the lower bolt, if it were to "pop" then you have much more extension and shock load onto the higher bolt vs. just having two at the same hight, but that's not really a point of argument because you're not suppose to be using this technique on any sort of anchor that has any questionability in the points.
Thanks for the comment, hope this helps
@@ryantilley9063 having the forces fall onto one anchor is not correct or understanding correct anchor building at all. So why didn’t you use a quickdraw to clip into one bolt for yourself and clip the Italian carabiner into the other bolt? Why bother with any of the cord? Use two points, that are tied into a central point, and each arm of the anchor have independence and are equalised. Then the forces are shared on the bolts, this is perfect. One bolt is not sufficient. There’s a lot of great videos explaining this including the ENSA one I sent you on why equalising an anchor is essential. I appreciate you like your interpretation of the knowledge but it doesn’t use good knowledge well.
I don't always build anchors like the ones in this video, most of the time I do exactly what you say, I make a redundant and equalized anchor. But it's just in this context of wanting to belay the leader directly off of the anchor where I make anchors like these. Having the belay carabiner closer to the bolt helps with controlling the belay more and it doesn't run the risk of the carabiner being leavened over a quick link or chain on the bolt. In the ENSA video they talked about how having the belay directly on the bolt could even decrease the force of the fall. We know that the bolt is more than strong enough to catch a leader fall off of the anchor also with a huge margin. Especially when you think about the usual style of clipping a quickdraw into the bolt as your first piece, If the leader were to fall on that then they would be putting twice the amount of force of the fall onto the bolt (2:1 force) where as a direct fall is a 1:1 force. So this method helps with reducing the force of the fall onto the anchor.
It seems like your main problem with this is the lack of equalization in the anchor and for that I can't really say anything because it is putting the highest force on one piece, which is why this is an advanced skill for folks that have a high understanding of the equipment in use and know how to inspect it. This for sure is not something that I teach to someone who's just learned how to multi-pitch, but it is a great way to protect a large runout from the anchor and exerting a high force onto my belayer.
Here's another resource from the AMGA by an instructor team member and an IFMGA guide talking about this system, he mentions all the same anchors I do and goes a little more in-depth with anchor variations. This was also one of the biggest resources that I based my videos on.
vimeo.com/424091097?embedded=true&source=vimeo_logo&owner=18761024
check out around 45min for the ENSA system
@@ryantilley9063 yes Ryan, its really impressive how he uses two equalised bolts (24.10) to tie into and then state how great it would be if N America had vertically aligned anchor bolts (belay off (24.24) and then connects his belay system to (24.50). Then a 41.50 he sets up a similar system but one that is set up so has the benefits of what you describe but without any of the misunderstandings that you have built into yours. His vertical build of the ENSA works as this is how it was designed to work. The horizontal build has the errors as it wasn't designed to work like this. He also stresses the use of a screw gate carabiner for the belay, where as you blatantly use a snap gate, demonstration/convenience or not, this is very poor on your part. As he says, these are not beginner techniques and learning them correctly at the right time is v important. As you don't know your audience at all, you should be demonstrating independent, equalised, and redundancy along with correct use of knowledge and techniques at all times. And whilst we like to think of bolts and unquestionable, they definitely aren't. Who fitted them, expansion or epoxy, rock type, orientation, age, lightening or rock strikes, freeze/thaw effects, any number of reasons why an individual bolt is potentially unquestionable and should be treated with caution rather than unquestioned.
@@rogerpalin5864 at 7:55 the video you posted the better piton takes all the force of the fall... did you not even watch the video you posted?