Welcome to the club! Got mine years ago and it's absolutely awesome. My fretless guitar solo is one of the most viewed vids on the channel with Paul Davids comment on it
Thank you so much for the support! I forgot how much time this took. Definitely had this in the works for a long time and glad someone appreciates how much work it took! Also, can't wait to do some fretless EBow videos, including some instructionals. Fretless guitar + EBow is truly a special combination. I have some free tracks up (overdubs) where I use this guitar as well, alone and with the EBow. md101089.bandcamp.com/album/speak-to-me-guitar-md-overdubs Track 10 is (I think) the first track I started using the EBow on. Tons of fun. Used it on many more after that. Thanks again for the support!
I created a fretless guitar 25 years ago and still have it. One thing though, you have to put your fingers on top of the fret lines to get the correct note. A little different than a fretted guitar, where your fingers are before the fret.
After playing fretless bass I just could not accept frets no more, and thus I converted my guitar fretless too. It's easy, if you ok with crafts and do not need top level finish. Just take out the frets, fill the gaps with some paste, clean it up with some very fine sandpaper. Lower the nut, bridge and pickups. Install flat-wound strings - thicker ones. It helps with sliding and thicker strings will vibrate it bit more. Accept that fretless will not sound like regular - it's more closer to oud, sort of. Discover new playing techniques. I use finger tip, or even finger nail for the upper strings on the fretboard. Have fun! ;)
There are a lot of wonderful fretless instruments in the world, i'm glad you found one! I'm sure you know this, but if you ever want some frets again you could go nylon wrapped, which you could have microtones. Or nylon fret it halfway similar to vihuela. great vid!
This is by far the best sounding fretless guitar I've heard. I recently made a fretless strat and the treble strings sound like a sitar. Any advice on this? Tried adjusting the truss rod/action etc. Thanks in advance and happy holidays!
Uneven fretboard leveling is the first thing that comes to mind. I've exclusively been using understring fret leveling for a while now and have had much better results with it compared to the traditional 'strings off' method. You *should* be able to get the GBE strings to around .030", measured open at the 12th fret, (0.76mm), without having this issue. On fretless, the sitar sound comes from the strings vibrating against the fretboard as IaynYbanez-x9z pointed out. However, that is *usually* a result of sub-optimal leveling, as long as everything else is in spec. Same for fretted instruments, the leveling of the frets is the limiting factor when it comes to setups. You can have a perfect truss rod adjustment (perfect neck relief) and perfect action both at the 1st and 12th / 17th frets, but if the board/frets aren't level, you'll have issues. I'm working on a video overview of my method for this, but it's quite simple. I do everything with the guitar face up on the workbench. Yoga blocks under the body, rock n' roller neck rest under the neck. I use scrap leather or other anti-slip padding under all the contact points (body and neck) to keep it from moving. Then, under full string tension, get the neck straight. I use a digital neck relief gauge for this and get great results, and personally, it's my favorite tool for this by far. Then slide a jack under the strings. The Stewmac string jack is perfect. Then tune the strings back down to pitch and measure your relief again to make sure it's as close to .000" as possible. Then level under string tension using either a Stewmac Fret Bar or a Rectify Master Lite tool. Those are the current options on the market. My number 1 choice is the Rectify Master Lite, available through Davide Bissoli at Rectify Master, but the Stewmac Fretbar will also work. It is worth noting Davide has a patent on that tool and Stewmac ripped it off from him without giving him any credit, so there's that. Anyway, go until you've contacted all surfaces of the fretboard. Fretless is a bit tricky with this method as the string jack will be in the way, so you may need to touch up the area nearest the nut separately. You can add fallaway by putting a strip of Scotch tape over the sandpaper on the leveling beam, up to the fourth fret or so. That will prevent the full length beam from leveling the first 4 frets, and will put it at a very slight angle (Scotch Tape is only around .0015" thick or so last time I checked -- that's one and a half thousandths of an inch), so you'll take a little more off the higher frets than the lower. That 'full length fallaway' isn't something I've seen anyone else do but it can really help in situations of stubborn buzzing. Action on fretless should be able to get as low or even lower than fretted instruments. I already set my action extremely low on fretted guitars (around .030" GBE measured open at the 12th, after setting the 1st fret action to around .018" EAD / .010" GBE, with .000" - .002" relief @ 7th fret). So if you're having problems at normal / reasonable action measurements, the profiling of the fretboard is the culprit. I've found understring leveling to be vastly superior to traditional leveling as the neck is in its "final position," in terms of the twists and turns it takes when strung up and straightened with the truss rod. It's usually a different profile than it is straightened out with the strings off. You can add relief to taste after. But for me, guitars play best when they have .000" - .002" relief. I really don't like any more than .002", and I believe in the vast majority of cases, adding more relief than that in an attempt to get rid of buzz is a compromise that's trying to fill the shoes of proper fret/fretboard leveling -- and the shoes are too big to fill. It can be very tedious. But this is how I do it. Just arduously leveling under string tension. You can speed things up by using 80 grit paper and then going to 150, 220, then finally 320. I haven't found going finer than that to be necessary but you could. 400 and 600 could be great to finish on for the smoothness. The 80 grit will go a long way in removing a lot of material fast which can be very helpful with such a tedious job. Hope this helps! I plan to get to work on that video soon, going over my method, but that's it in a nutshell for understring leveling. Very straightforward. The bias against it is merely that it's not traditional. I've gotten great results with it hundreds of times and it's the only way I do it these days.
One more thing: if the nut is too high, it can *indirectly* cause buzzing by giving you a "false" action reading open at the 12th fret. You can either capo around the 1st fret area, then set the action at the 17th fret, which will take the nut out of the equation and be *roughly* equivalent to the action open at the 12th fret when you have ideal 1st fret action -- -- or you can dial in the action at the 1st fret and then measure the action open at the 12th. If the nut is fairly high, and you set your action open at the 12th, you'll get a falsely high action reading. So when you fret the actual notes, the action is much lower, and there's not enough string clearance to avoid buzzing or sitar-ing. The action at the 1st fret area on fretless should be *extremely* low. Like immediately in front of the nut (well behind the first fret area), you should see just a sliver of light that gradually increases as you reach the actual 1st fret area. But measured at the 1st fret it'll be similar to a fretted instrument: about .018" EAD, .010" GBE. Roughly. You can swing a couple thousandths plus or minus but I've found .018" EAD / .010" GBE to be a good standard to shoot for, in order to get low action. The 1st fret action is much more universal, as the string tension is so high. Unless you're playing slide, or have a heavy hand and have a tendency to make the open strings buzz, .018" EAD / .010" GBE is a solid standard to go by. I myself and almost everyone I've done setups for seem to really enjoy that 1st fret action. Combine that with a standard of around .002" relief (I prefer .000" but this is very difficult to do without a digital gauge), and then the main preference to set is the action. I've found the .018" EAD / .010" GBE 1st fret, and .002" relief @ 7th fret, to be a great standard for most players -- any desire for difference in the setup can usually be achieved via adjusting the action from that point forward. Anyway, just my take. Hope this helps.
Thanks! It's a unique experience for sure. Whole new appreciation for cellists/violinists. I tried playing violin for months, and made some progress -- but eventually decided fretless guitar is more my style, and my efforts would be better spent there. Playing by ear is really new for me with this. Being able to slide up or down to the right note, and being able to hear the transition from beginning to end -- instead of the half step increments of frets -- well, I've been practicing a lot without looking at the neck at all. And it's very humbling. I've improved my ear simply by playing along with the vocal melodies of my favorite songs without looking at the fingerboard. It felt 100% impossible to do at first. Now it only feels 90% impossible. Little by little, day by day -- I highly recommend trying it out if you get the chance!
Absolutely! Here's the link: rectifymaster.com/ His name is Davide Bissoli. The tool I use most frequently is the RM Lite - Guitar length. The direct link to that product is here: rectifymaster.com/lite To place an order, simply fill out the contact form here: rectifymaster.com/contact
Thanks! I always recommend using a 'beater' guitar for doing this. That, or if it's a bolt-on neck, simply doing it to another neck that you can swap out. Harley Benton has a ton of great, affordable guitars. They usually need a fair amount of work to get playing in top shape, but they're well worth it. So my vote is another cheaper guitar or another neck if you're using a bolt-on. Let me know if you decide to do it!
Thanks! It's a Slidewinder ring. I actually used a soldering gun to demagnetize mine. I got mine in a 2 pack on sale. I have another video I'd love for you to see if you've got time, where I'm using it in a pretty unique way (in my opinion): ua-cam.com/video/la8RMd1YnJg/v-deo.htmlsi=vmgZV7vYqXJEgWPg Thanks so much for the support. Hope this helps! There is also the "Will Ray Stealth Slide Ring" for guitar, on eBay. Very different, also good -- I prefer the Slidewinder but all depends on your usage.
My son has a fretless bass. It came with roundwounds, but he replaced them with flatwounds to protect the unfretted board from damage of the groundwounds.
Very good idea! I remember the first time I put flatwounds on my bass, it suddenly sounded like what I *always thought* a bass should sound like. Low, thumpy. Huge, huge fan of flatwounds. And I do think they're much less prone to wearing the fingerboard. Many techs and luthiers will coat the fingerboard with epoxy (packing tape on either side of the fretboard to act as a 'dam,' then pouring a thin layer of epoxy over the board).... ...to protect it. I like the feel of natural wood, like on a violin, and the flats are definitely friendlier there. One other option is Mighty Mite Phenolic Fingerboard fretless bass necks. They're truly amazing. My friend has put a bunch of them on for people, and even after years of playing with roundwound strings, they have no wear at all, or so minimal it barely looks like a scuff mark. Just in case your son is ever interested. I personally love Mighty Mite necks and have always had great results with them. I have some other videos up I plan on redoing -- I use shellac and Renaissance wax to finish the back of the neck (and just shellac for the headstock), and it comes out great. My favorite finish of all time. Hand mixed and hand rubbed. No ventilation or gloves or mask required. Anyway....getting a little over-excited this morning. Thanks for the comment!
If your neck is swinging out of level when string tension is applied either your neck is twisted or the luthier didn't set the truss rod in correctly with regard to differential string tension.
I have an acquaintance that would disagree, from doing over 10,000 PLEK scans. Some necks are OK -- the majority will be different when straight under string tension vs. straight without string tension. If you're building your own necks you can control these things to a much greater extent. But either way, understring leveling is always my go-to choice. There are just so many advantages and I would still use it even in cases where the neck was completely unchanged. To each their own! On this particular neck, I'm considering pulling the fingerboard, placing some carbon fiber rods, and installing an Obsidian Ebony fingerboard. The neck on this guitar is particularly flimsy and even pressing the strings down too hard causes the neck to go into a back bow. It could definitely benefit from being much stronger -- very frustrating. I'm also curious to try that wood on a fretless guitar, I think it'll work great
WTF, man all you post are bangers. This might be the best luthier channel on the platform. I don't know if you do CAD but I've been thinking about telling you about Armhattanproductions. They do carbon fiber, and I imagine you could make understring Carbon levelers (t-shape made from 2 pieces with slot and hole alignment glue up) cheap enough to dress them for a compound radius. You seem like just the person to want to be the first to have a set of compound radius USL (under string levelers). They would of course start out as flat stiff ultra stiff carbon (t profile should be fine but maybe I profile if wanna spend extra for nothing) and then a little bit of poly/epoxy layers could be shaped on a reference "fretboard"
Thanks so much! And very interesting idea. I was getting 1" carbon fiber i-beam from Dragonplate Carbon Fiber in NY. The only thing I was doing was leveling them on a surface plate and making wooden handles for them, but other than that, they were straight 1" i-beam. I even think Dragonplate might have a patent on the particular webbing they use on their i-beams that are said to be much more structurally sound. Davide Bissoli is the patent holder of all these leveling devices, as I've mentioned -- I'd be curious what he thinks as well. Already having an established business and production going for his tools, I wonder if he'd be open to making some with carbon fiber. I still think the carbon fiber is the best material, as it will *not* go out of spec if you drop it, it's lighter, it's thinner, *and* it can be re-coated with epoxy at any time, and re-leveled. They will last forever and can be touched up to perfection an infinite amount of times for this reason. I'd love to see one of these in action. Anything to make compound radiuses easier would be nice. I did see someone else on YT that came up with a jig -- I think his name is "The Next Project." I can't remember if it was a compound radius but he had a jig set up with a router and he just buzzed the whole board like nothing, very quickly, to perfection. I appreciate hand work, but modern technology is a huge blessing. I've never used CAD or CNC. I've *tried* to use CAD but I'm dumb as a bag of rocks when it comes to CAD, for whatever reason, or most computer software programs. I would leave it to someone much more capable than myself to deal with all the logistics there. But I would love to see it, for sure. Anything to make jobs faster and easier, I'm all about it. I appreciate artisan level techniques but I would much rather have processes that laypeople could learn quickly on their own...myself included!
How does it play if you use the markers? I plan on getting pawnshop or locally sold guitar and taking out the frets with just common tools. Any recommendations?
The markers help me a lot. Most of the time I do the lines as a contrast to the board, like black on maple, white on rosewood. And those do work well. Personally, I'd be lost without some kind of marker, and I need them on the actual fretboard front, not just on the side. But some argue that you should really learn fretless by ear, not by eye. Getting used to adjusting your fingering based on what you hear, like violinists and cellists do. And I can definitely see the argument for that. I highly recommend grinding down a pair of end nippers. Channellock 357 are my go-to. They're the best fret pullers you can use, period. The 'professional' fret pullers suck, in my humble opinion -- the jaws are way too small, and they tend to take up chips. Flush grinding your own full sized end nippers on a belt sander is the best way to go. That's my best recommendation for fret pullers. As for common tools, I can't think of anything unmodified that will work for pulling frets out cleanly. Have to be flush ground to a razor edge in order to get under the bead of the fret. I own a pair of Hosco TL-FC190 Fret Cutters. I haven't tried using them for pulling frets yet. But the guy that actually turned me on to flush grinding end nippers, who came up with that idea back in the late '60s - early '70s, told me that they work for pulling frets. Again, I'd have to verify. But I will say they are definitely close to flush ground, just looking at them. You might be able to go a bit more but off the shelf they are going to probably be far beyond other tools for pulling frets. You can find them here: www.amazon.com/HOSCO-HC-TL-FC190-Hosco-TL-FC190-Cutter/dp/B07H45L6CJ/ref=asc_df_B07H45L6CJ/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=693441167956&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17280157979003718963&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9003238&hvtargid=pla-822085766531&psc=1&mcid=79c1687467fe3f438010ce4ce5ef2e3f&gad_source=1 I personally don't use heat when removing frets. I've never found it necessary. Some put water around the fret and steam it with a soldering iron. Others use solder. I find that using full sized, flush ground end nippers, this has never been necessary for me, and I've pulled thousands of frets. The reason people use "chip stoppers" with commercial fret pullers is because the jaws aren't wide enough to stop chips on their own, like the Channellock 357 or Hosco nippers will, which are "full sized" end nippers. I have a video just of pulling the frets here: ua-cam.com/video/d--agU45P5w/v-deo.htmlsi=4fT5an7O-yEy-2M2 However, I'm working (slowly) on a video called "The Best Fret Pullers Ever" about this very topic, and I'm going to include much more in-depth, super close-up detail about how these work, with a comparison to other smaller (commercial) nippers as well. Anyway, hope this helps. Let me know if you have any questions and I'll do my best to respond
Nope. And never have had to. The key is the pullers I use, which I made myself. My friend and mentor Steve K. told me how to make them and initially made a pair for me. He's been using them since the early '70s and has never had to use heat to pull frets. And same for me. The key is the wide surface area of the jaws. Most commercial fret pullers are way too small and prone to taking up chips. These have way more leverage and the wide surface area presses down on the board as you lift the fret out, and prevents chips from coming up. I've been meaning to make a video on this specifically. I've pulled thousands of frets with these nippers, vintage guitars included, and they just work perfectly every time. I have a pair of the 3 Peaks fret pullers and am not a fan. Too small, like all of them. I've found that those types tend to "snap" the fret out quickly, as opposed to gently wedging it out. It's a wedge in both cases but the small surface area doesn't have the leverage and control to do it slowly and safely. There are some boards, particularly ebony, where heat can help. Some add solder to the fret tops while heating, some add water with a pipette to help steam them out. I've superglued frets in very thoroughly and pulled them out with these nippers, with no heat, probably thousands of times by now and never had an issue. Anyway: on the worst boards that might crumble no matter what you do, these nippers are still the best, even if you're using heat. You'd have to use less heat for less time. These things are just great. Hosco makes a fret cutter that might work. Same size. Not sure if the jaws are ground thin enough but they're pretty damn thin. Stewmac fret cutters are close too. I was taught to grind them flush to a razor edge. That's the key. Has to be a razor edge. Steve used a bench grinder. I use a belt sander. It's tough to do and easy to ruin them by going too far. I only made one pair for myself and it's lasted many many years. Again...would love to do a video on this. "The Best Fret Pullers Ever." Been planning this for a few years now but it's ended up on the backburner like everything else.
Yes -- 24.75" scale. I find the shorter scale helpful. I also have done fretless conversions on basses. I have an old Hagstrom bass that's shorter scale, and it's more comfortable to me than a full scale bass. I prefer shorter scale for fretless. Fretless guitar is *much* shorter scale than bass, and it is a lot easier to play as a result. It's easier to get accurate intonation as your fingers/hand don't have to move as far to get to the desired note. Violin is an extreme example. Very, very short scale lengths, tiny instruments. Notes are all much closer together and easier to reach -- easier for me personally to play, in any case
One horrible experience @ a automotive shop & I now own most every tool needed to do all .y own mechanical work. I purchased a Jackson guitar with a floyd thinking I knew wsup having grown up playing a Westone Spectrum LX (198mbk) with a adjustable floating tremelow. I tried down tuning my Jackson & opened a can of worms! In trying to simply pay a shop to set up my floyd, I cannot find anyone local. So, I have obtained luthier tools & part of me wishes that I knew a local luthier in the Ohio Valley? Though I know that I must figure it all out myself!
I'd love to do a video on setting up a Floyd. They're easier than it seems. One of the big things is spring tension. With down tuning, you might need to use slacker springs, or simple remove one spring. I've had many where I had to use only two springs. The goal is to get the bridge parallel with the top. And that's all about the spring tension. I recommend an extra long screwdriver for ease of adjustment with the tremolo claw screws. For action, the trickiest part is the locking nut. I have a file from Summit Tools for filing the channel under the locking nut. Shimming the saddles may also be necessary to get ideal action. I have a Floyd equipped guitar I've been restoring that I might do a video on. I'll have to plan it out carefully. But that would be great. A lot about Floyds throws people off but it's so easy once you understand them. Just tedious. It's a little more tedious than a traditional guitar but the tradeoff is the rock solid tuning. Would love to get started on this video. In the meantime, let me know if you have any questions. I can type out an answer here quickly but a video will take me months to shoot and edit to completion. Keep me posted!
You’re a modern day Rembrandt. The attention to fine details are astounding. I have an Ephiphone SG bass and considering converting it to a fretless. What would it cost for such an undertaking?
Hey! Thanks so much for the compliment, absolutely made my night. You can hit me up at guitarmdofficial@gmail.com with any work related requests. Sometimes it's hard for me to keep up with comments and I often forget work related requests unless they go through to my e-mail. Currently working on a fretless bass conversion for someone. My rates vary depending on the job -- but just as a heads up, I'm currently not offering any coatings on the board other than shellac. Many places offer CA glue and epoxy coatings, and I do understand the value of these, but raw wood or shellac are the only finish options I'm offering on fretless conversions currently. And I haven't done one with shellac yet. I just know I love shellac finishes on fretted necks. Personally I love the slick feel of raw wood fretless boards but that's just my personal preference.
You can hit me up at guitarmdofficial@gmail.com if you'd like. All depends on whether you just want to ship a bolt-on neck for conversion, or a whole guitar. It is important for me to point out that currently I'm only doing conversions for unfinished boards. Until I change my mind, I'm only using shellac as a finish, though I haven't tried it on a fretless board yet -- so as long as you're OK with a raw wood conversion, reach out and I'll be happy to accommodate. Stain is another thing I'm keeping to my own personal projects until I get it completely figured out. I've re-leveled the board on my SG and have gone through most of the old dye. So -- raw wood, and no dye, and we're good to go. I've been planning more videos on fretless guitar when I've got time. It's an absolutely wonderful instrument and it opens the door to so many exciting things. If you've seen my "bassmisen" video titled "This Bass Thinks it's a Japanese Shamisen" -- guitar strings on a fretless short scale bass. Sounds awesome, and a unique instrument all unto itself. It's quite addicting, and definitely exciting to add to the repertoire if you've got a collection of exclusively fretted guitars.
Lmao. That's actually literally what happened. I was originally going to refret this and then as it was sitting there with no frets on it for weeks, and I didn't feel like putting them in....I was like, wait a minute
I've been debating putting one in. Duncan Price (@DiskoBebe) on Instagram has designed a polyphonic infinite sustainer that seems to be far more powerful than the Sustainiac and gives control over individual string vibrations. I would absolutely love for that to go commercial. Wouldn't hesitate for a second to buy it. I've only tried a Sustainiac once -- maybe it was just the particular guitar, but I found myself wishing it was stronger so it would have a more immediate effect. I do have an EBow and use that on fretless regularly, but for sure, an infinite sustainer pickup would be the best way to go. Definitely, fretless and a sustainer pickup are a winning combination. I've read varying things about the Sustainiac vs the Fernandes system. If you haven't seen Duncan Price and his sustainer, definitely check it out. Wish they would come to market but it doesn't look like it's gonna happen -- that would be my first pick by far. Unfortunately even though I've been making my own pickups for years, I don't have the knowledge to make a sustainer pickup. However...there are a lot of DIY plans I'm curious to try. The Sustainiac is looking like the easiest installation though, and quickest solution. I'll forever complain about Duncan's design not being available until it is, though.
Thanks for all the detail on how it was done.
You're welcome, and thanks for the support!
sounds like something that should've been in a doors album
Wow! Amazing! Freaking love everything here!
Thank you so much!
Welcome to the club! Got mine years ago and it's absolutely awesome. My fretless guitar solo is one of the most viewed vids on the channel with Paul Davids comment on it
Great video. Thanks for this tremendous effort.
Thank you so much for the support! I forgot how much time this took. Definitely had this in the works for a long time and glad someone appreciates how much work it took!
Also, can't wait to do some fretless EBow videos, including some instructionals. Fretless guitar + EBow is truly a special combination.
I have some free tracks up (overdubs) where I use this guitar as well, alone and with the EBow.
md101089.bandcamp.com/album/speak-to-me-guitar-md-overdubs
Track 10 is (I think) the first track I started using the EBow on. Tons of fun. Used it on many more after that.
Thanks again for the support!
I created a fretless guitar 25 years ago and still have it. One thing though, you have to put your fingers on top of the fret lines to get the correct note. A little different than a fretted guitar, where your fingers are before the fret.
After playing fretless bass I just could not accept frets no more, and thus I converted my guitar fretless too. It's easy, if you ok with crafts and do not need top level finish.
Just take out the frets, fill the gaps with some paste, clean it up with some very fine sandpaper.
Lower the nut, bridge and pickups.
Install flat-wound strings - thicker ones. It helps with sliding and thicker strings will vibrate it bit more.
Accept that fretless will not sound like regular - it's more closer to oud, sort of.
Discover new playing techniques. I use finger tip, or even finger nail for the upper strings on the fretboard.
Have fun! ;)
There are a lot of wonderful fretless instruments in the world, i'm glad you found one! I'm sure you know this, but if you ever want some frets again you could go nylon wrapped, which you could have microtones. Or nylon fret it halfway similar to vihuela. great vid!
This is by far the best sounding fretless guitar I've heard. I recently made a fretless strat and the treble strings sound like a sitar. Any advice on this? Tried adjusting the truss rod/action etc. Thanks in advance and happy holidays!
your nut setup might be too low..... the sitar sound normally comes from the string vibrating against the fretboard.
Uneven fretboard leveling is the first thing that comes to mind. I've exclusively been using understring fret leveling for a while now and have had much better results with it compared to the traditional 'strings off' method.
You *should* be able to get the GBE strings to around .030", measured open at the 12th fret, (0.76mm), without having this issue. On fretless, the sitar sound comes from the strings vibrating against the fretboard as IaynYbanez-x9z pointed out.
However, that is *usually* a result of sub-optimal leveling, as long as everything else is in spec. Same for fretted instruments, the leveling of the frets is the limiting factor when it comes to setups. You can have a perfect truss rod adjustment (perfect neck relief) and perfect action both at the 1st and 12th / 17th frets, but if the board/frets aren't level, you'll have issues.
I'm working on a video overview of my method for this, but it's quite simple. I do everything with the guitar face up on the workbench. Yoga blocks under the body, rock n' roller neck rest under the neck. I use scrap leather or other anti-slip padding under all the contact points (body and neck) to keep it from moving.
Then, under full string tension, get the neck straight. I use a digital neck relief gauge for this and get great results, and personally, it's my favorite tool for this by far.
Then slide a jack under the strings. The Stewmac string jack is perfect. Then tune the strings back down to pitch and measure your relief again to make sure it's as close to .000" as possible.
Then level under string tension using either a Stewmac Fret Bar or a Rectify Master Lite tool. Those are the current options on the market. My number 1 choice is the Rectify Master Lite, available through Davide Bissoli at Rectify Master, but the Stewmac Fretbar will also work. It is worth noting Davide has a patent on that tool and Stewmac ripped it off from him without giving him any credit, so there's that.
Anyway, go until you've contacted all surfaces of the fretboard. Fretless is a bit tricky with this method as the string jack will be in the way, so you may need to touch up the area nearest the nut separately.
You can add fallaway by putting a strip of Scotch tape over the sandpaper on the leveling beam, up to the fourth fret or so. That will prevent the full length beam from leveling the first 4 frets, and will put it at a very slight angle (Scotch Tape is only around .0015" thick or so last time I checked -- that's one and a half thousandths of an inch), so you'll take a little more off the higher frets than the lower.
That 'full length fallaway' isn't something I've seen anyone else do but it can really help in situations of stubborn buzzing.
Action on fretless should be able to get as low or even lower than fretted instruments. I already set my action extremely low on fretted guitars (around .030" GBE measured open at the 12th, after setting the 1st fret action to around .018" EAD / .010" GBE, with .000" - .002" relief @ 7th fret).
So if you're having problems at normal / reasonable action measurements, the profiling of the fretboard is the culprit. I've found understring leveling to be vastly superior to traditional leveling as the neck is in its "final position," in terms of the twists and turns it takes when strung up and straightened with the truss rod. It's usually a different profile than it is straightened out with the strings off.
You can add relief to taste after. But for me, guitars play best when they have .000" - .002" relief. I really don't like any more than .002", and I believe in the vast majority of cases, adding more relief than that in an attempt to get rid of buzz is a compromise that's trying to fill the shoes of proper fret/fretboard leveling -- and the shoes are too big to fill.
It can be very tedious. But this is how I do it. Just arduously leveling under string tension. You can speed things up by using 80 grit paper and then going to 150, 220, then finally 320. I haven't found going finer than that to be necessary but you could. 400 and 600 could be great to finish on for the smoothness. The 80 grit will go a long way in removing a lot of material fast which can be very helpful with such a tedious job.
Hope this helps! I plan to get to work on that video soon, going over my method, but that's it in a nutshell for understring leveling. Very straightforward. The bias against it is merely that it's not traditional. I've gotten great results with it hundreds of times and it's the only way I do it these days.
One more thing: if the nut is too high, it can *indirectly* cause buzzing by giving you a "false" action reading open at the 12th fret.
You can either capo around the 1st fret area, then set the action at the 17th fret, which will take the nut out of the equation and be *roughly* equivalent to the action open at the 12th fret when you have ideal 1st fret action --
-- or you can dial in the action at the 1st fret and then measure the action open at the 12th.
If the nut is fairly high, and you set your action open at the 12th, you'll get a falsely high action reading. So when you fret the actual notes, the action is much lower, and there's not enough string clearance to avoid buzzing or sitar-ing.
The action at the 1st fret area on fretless should be *extremely* low. Like immediately in front of the nut (well behind the first fret area), you should see just a sliver of light that gradually increases as you reach the actual 1st fret area.
But measured at the 1st fret it'll be similar to a fretted instrument: about .018" EAD, .010" GBE. Roughly. You can swing a couple thousandths plus or minus but I've found .018" EAD / .010" GBE to be a good standard to shoot for, in order to get low action. The 1st fret action is much more universal, as the string tension is so high. Unless you're playing slide, or have a heavy hand and have a tendency to make the open strings buzz, .018" EAD / .010" GBE is a solid standard to go by. I myself and almost everyone I've done setups for seem to really enjoy that 1st fret action.
Combine that with a standard of around .002" relief (I prefer .000" but this is very difficult to do without a digital gauge), and then the main preference to set is the action. I've found the .018" EAD / .010" GBE 1st fret, and .002" relief @ 7th fret, to be a great standard for most players -- any desire for difference in the setup can usually be achieved via adjusting the action from that point forward.
Anyway, just my take. Hope this helps.
im in love, hey! I'm a believer! not a trace! of frets on my board!!
Fine work! Was just thinking about a fretless guitar (what it would be like playing one).
Thanks! It's a unique experience for sure. Whole new appreciation for cellists/violinists. I tried playing violin for months, and made some progress -- but eventually decided fretless guitar is more my style, and my efforts would be better spent there.
Playing by ear is really new for me with this. Being able to slide up or down to the right note, and being able to hear the transition from beginning to end -- instead of the half step increments of frets -- well, I've been practicing a lot without looking at the neck at all.
And it's very humbling. I've improved my ear simply by playing along with the vocal melodies of my favorite songs without looking at the fingerboard. It felt 100% impossible to do at first. Now it only feels 90% impossible. Little by little, day by day -- I highly recommend trying it out if you get the chance!
Impressive! I subscribed!
Thank you fior the great bideo. Where is the link to the under string leveling stuff?
Absolutely! Here's the link:
rectifymaster.com/
His name is Davide Bissoli. The tool I use most frequently is the RM Lite - Guitar length. The direct link to that product is here:
rectifymaster.com/lite
To place an order, simply fill out the contact form here:
rectifymaster.com/contact
Beautiful job
Nice playing as well!
Thank you so much!
Wow nice work! I have a guitar that I bought for this purpose, but it is a nice guitar and I am still split whether to do it or not.
Thanks! I always recommend using a 'beater' guitar for doing this. That, or if it's a bolt-on neck, simply doing it to another neck that you can swap out.
Harley Benton has a ton of great, affordable guitars. They usually need a fair amount of work to get playing in top shape, but they're well worth it. So my vote is another cheaper guitar or another neck if you're using a bolt-on.
Let me know if you decide to do it!
Great video- Where did you get that finger slide?
Thanks! It's a Slidewinder ring. I actually used a soldering gun to demagnetize mine. I got mine in a 2 pack on sale. I have another video I'd love for you to see if you've got time, where I'm using it in a pretty unique way (in my opinion):
ua-cam.com/video/la8RMd1YnJg/v-deo.htmlsi=vmgZV7vYqXJEgWPg
Thanks so much for the support. Hope this helps! There is also the "Will Ray Stealth Slide Ring" for guitar, on eBay. Very different, also good -- I prefer the Slidewinder but all depends on your usage.
@@guitar_md Thanks! Ai have the Will Ray but this looks like it would work better for me too. 😁
My son has a fretless bass. It came with roundwounds, but he replaced them with flatwounds to protect the unfretted board from damage of the groundwounds.
Very good idea! I remember the first time I put flatwounds on my bass, it suddenly sounded like what I *always thought* a bass should sound like. Low, thumpy.
Huge, huge fan of flatwounds. And I do think they're much less prone to wearing the fingerboard. Many techs and luthiers will coat the fingerboard with epoxy (packing tape on either side of the fretboard to act as a 'dam,' then pouring a thin layer of epoxy over the board)....
...to protect it. I like the feel of natural wood, like on a violin, and the flats are definitely friendlier there.
One other option is Mighty Mite Phenolic Fingerboard fretless bass necks. They're truly amazing. My friend has put a bunch of them on for people, and even after years of playing with roundwound strings, they have no wear at all, or so minimal it barely looks like a scuff mark.
Just in case your son is ever interested. I personally love Mighty Mite necks and have always had great results with them. I have some other videos up I plan on redoing -- I use shellac and Renaissance wax to finish the back of the neck (and just shellac for the headstock), and it comes out great. My favorite finish of all time. Hand mixed and hand rubbed. No ventilation or gloves or mask required.
Anyway....getting a little over-excited this morning. Thanks for the comment!
If your neck is swinging out of level when string tension is applied either your neck is twisted or the luthier didn't set the truss rod in correctly with regard to differential string tension.
I have an acquaintance that would disagree, from doing over 10,000 PLEK scans. Some necks are OK -- the majority will be different when straight under string tension vs. straight without string tension.
If you're building your own necks you can control these things to a much greater extent.
But either way, understring leveling is always my go-to choice. There are just so many advantages and I would still use it even in cases where the neck was completely unchanged.
To each their own! On this particular neck, I'm considering pulling the fingerboard, placing some carbon fiber rods, and installing an Obsidian Ebony fingerboard.
The neck on this guitar is particularly flimsy and even pressing the strings down too hard causes the neck to go into a back bow. It could definitely benefit from being much stronger -- very frustrating. I'm also curious to try that wood on a fretless guitar, I think it'll work great
WTF, man all you post are bangers. This might be the best luthier channel on the platform. I don't know if you do CAD but I've been thinking about telling you about Armhattanproductions. They do carbon fiber, and I imagine you could make understring Carbon levelers (t-shape made from 2 pieces with slot and hole alignment glue up) cheap enough to dress them for a compound radius.
You seem like just the person to want to be the first to have a set of compound radius USL (under string levelers). They would of course start out as flat stiff ultra stiff carbon (t profile should be fine but maybe I profile if wanna spend extra for nothing) and then a little bit of poly/epoxy layers could be shaped on a reference "fretboard"
Thanks so much! And very interesting idea. I was getting 1" carbon fiber i-beam from Dragonplate Carbon Fiber in NY. The only thing I was doing was leveling them on a surface plate and making wooden handles for them, but other than that, they were straight 1" i-beam.
I even think Dragonplate might have a patent on the particular webbing they use on their i-beams that are said to be much more structurally sound.
Davide Bissoli is the patent holder of all these leveling devices, as I've mentioned -- I'd be curious what he thinks as well. Already having an established business and production going for his tools, I wonder if he'd be open to making some with carbon fiber.
I still think the carbon fiber is the best material, as it will *not* go out of spec if you drop it, it's lighter, it's thinner, *and* it can be re-coated with epoxy at any time, and re-leveled. They will last forever and can be touched up to perfection an infinite amount of times for this reason.
I'd love to see one of these in action. Anything to make compound radiuses easier would be nice. I did see someone else on YT that came up with a jig -- I think his name is "The Next Project." I can't remember if it was a compound radius but he had a jig set up with a router and he just buzzed the whole board like nothing, very quickly, to perfection.
I appreciate hand work, but modern technology is a huge blessing. I've never used CAD or CNC. I've *tried* to use CAD but I'm dumb as a bag of rocks when it comes to CAD, for whatever reason, or most computer software programs. I would leave it to someone much more capable than myself to deal with all the logistics there.
But I would love to see it, for sure. Anything to make jobs faster and easier, I'm all about it. I appreciate artisan level techniques but I would much rather have processes that laypeople could learn quickly on their own...myself included!
How does it play if you use the markers? I plan on getting pawnshop or locally sold guitar and taking out the frets with just common tools. Any recommendations?
The markers help me a lot. Most of the time I do the lines as a contrast to the board, like black on maple, white on rosewood. And those do work well. Personally, I'd be lost without some kind of marker, and I need them on the actual fretboard front, not just on the side.
But some argue that you should really learn fretless by ear, not by eye. Getting used to adjusting your fingering based on what you hear, like violinists and cellists do. And I can definitely see the argument for that.
I highly recommend grinding down a pair of end nippers. Channellock 357 are my go-to. They're the best fret pullers you can use, period. The 'professional' fret pullers suck, in my humble opinion -- the jaws are way too small, and they tend to take up chips.
Flush grinding your own full sized end nippers on a belt sander is the best way to go. That's my best recommendation for fret pullers.
As for common tools, I can't think of anything unmodified that will work for pulling frets out cleanly. Have to be flush ground to a razor edge in order to get under the bead of the fret.
I own a pair of Hosco TL-FC190 Fret Cutters. I haven't tried using them for pulling frets yet. But the guy that actually turned me on to flush grinding end nippers, who came up with that idea back in the late '60s - early '70s, told me that they work for pulling frets.
Again, I'd have to verify. But I will say they are definitely close to flush ground, just looking at them. You might be able to go a bit more but off the shelf they are going to probably be far beyond other tools for pulling frets. You can find them here:
www.amazon.com/HOSCO-HC-TL-FC190-Hosco-TL-FC190-Cutter/dp/B07H45L6CJ/ref=asc_df_B07H45L6CJ/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=693441167956&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17280157979003718963&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9003238&hvtargid=pla-822085766531&psc=1&mcid=79c1687467fe3f438010ce4ce5ef2e3f&gad_source=1
I personally don't use heat when removing frets. I've never found it necessary. Some put water around the fret and steam it with a soldering iron. Others use solder. I find that using full sized, flush ground end nippers, this has never been necessary for me, and I've pulled thousands of frets.
The reason people use "chip stoppers" with commercial fret pullers is because the jaws aren't wide enough to stop chips on their own, like the Channellock 357 or Hosco nippers will, which are "full sized" end nippers.
I have a video just of pulling the frets here:
ua-cam.com/video/d--agU45P5w/v-deo.htmlsi=4fT5an7O-yEy-2M2
However, I'm working (slowly) on a video called "The Best Fret Pullers Ever" about this very topic, and I'm going to include much more in-depth, super close-up detail about how these work, with a comparison to other smaller (commercial) nippers as well.
Anyway, hope this helps. Let me know if you have any questions and I'll do my best to respond
you did nothing to loosen/weaken the glue on the frets?
Nope. And never have had to. The key is the pullers I use, which I made myself. My friend and mentor Steve K. told me how to make them and initially made a pair for me.
He's been using them since the early '70s and has never had to use heat to pull frets. And same for me. The key is the wide surface area of the jaws. Most commercial fret pullers are way too small and prone to taking up chips. These have way more leverage and the wide surface area presses down on the board as you lift the fret out, and prevents chips from coming up.
I've been meaning to make a video on this specifically. I've pulled thousands of frets with these nippers, vintage guitars included, and they just work perfectly every time.
I have a pair of the 3 Peaks fret pullers and am not a fan. Too small, like all of them. I've found that those types tend to "snap" the fret out quickly, as opposed to gently wedging it out. It's a wedge in both cases but the small surface area doesn't have the leverage and control to do it slowly and safely.
There are some boards, particularly ebony, where heat can help. Some add solder to the fret tops while heating, some add water with a pipette to help steam them out.
I've superglued frets in very thoroughly and pulled them out with these nippers, with no heat, probably thousands of times by now and never had an issue.
Anyway: on the worst boards that might crumble no matter what you do, these nippers are still the best, even if you're using heat. You'd have to use less heat for less time. These things are just great.
Hosco makes a fret cutter that might work. Same size. Not sure if the jaws are ground thin enough but they're pretty damn thin. Stewmac fret cutters are close too. I was taught to grind them flush to a razor edge. That's the key. Has to be a razor edge.
Steve used a bench grinder. I use a belt sander. It's tough to do and easy to ruin them by going too far. I only made one pair for myself and it's lasted many many years.
Again...would love to do a video on this. "The Best Fret Pullers Ever." Been planning this for a few years now but it's ended up on the backburner like everything else.
Im on board with a fretless guitar, How do you tune it?
Is it just a Gibson regular scale length? People always say to me bass is more friendly on fretless cause of scale lenght
Yes -- 24.75" scale. I find the shorter scale helpful.
I also have done fretless conversions on basses. I have an old Hagstrom bass that's shorter scale, and it's more comfortable to me than a full scale bass.
I prefer shorter scale for fretless. Fretless guitar is *much* shorter scale than bass, and it is a lot easier to play as a result. It's easier to get accurate intonation as your fingers/hand don't have to move as far to get to the desired note.
Violin is an extreme example. Very, very short scale lengths, tiny instruments. Notes are all much closer together and easier to reach -- easier for me personally to play, in any case
@@guitar_md cool! quite opposite that some luthiers told me. Violin really makes sense. I will try it someday with a cheap strat
Bit good that ❤
One horrible experience @ a automotive shop & I now own most every tool needed to do all .y own mechanical work. I purchased a Jackson guitar with a floyd thinking I knew wsup having grown up playing a Westone Spectrum LX (198mbk) with a adjustable floating tremelow. I tried down tuning my Jackson & opened a can of worms! In trying to simply pay a shop to set up my floyd, I cannot find anyone local. So, I have obtained luthier tools & part of me wishes that I knew a local luthier in the Ohio Valley? Though I know that I must figure it all out myself!
I'd love to do a video on setting up a Floyd. They're easier than it seems. One of the big things is spring tension. With down tuning, you might need to use slacker springs, or simple remove one spring.
I've had many where I had to use only two springs.
The goal is to get the bridge parallel with the top. And that's all about the spring tension. I recommend an extra long screwdriver for ease of adjustment with the tremolo claw screws.
For action, the trickiest part is the locking nut. I have a file from Summit Tools for filing the channel under the locking nut. Shimming the saddles may also be necessary to get ideal action.
I have a Floyd equipped guitar I've been restoring that I might do a video on. I'll have to plan it out carefully. But that would be great. A lot about Floyds throws people off but it's so easy once you understand them.
Just tedious. It's a little more tedious than a traditional guitar but the tradeoff is the rock solid tuning. Would love to get started on this video. In the meantime, let me know if you have any questions.
I can type out an answer here quickly but a video will take me months to shoot and edit to completion. Keep me posted!
I once wanted Jeff Beck to use a fretless guitar. He could have handled it effectively.
You’re a modern day Rembrandt. The attention to fine details are astounding. I have an Ephiphone SG bass and considering converting it to a fretless. What would it cost for such an undertaking?
Hey! Thanks so much for the compliment, absolutely made my night.
You can hit me up at guitarmdofficial@gmail.com with any work related requests. Sometimes it's hard for me to keep up with comments and I often forget work related requests unless they go through to my e-mail.
Currently working on a fretless bass conversion for someone. My rates vary depending on the job -- but just as a heads up, I'm currently not offering any coatings on the board other than shellac. Many places offer CA glue and epoxy coatings, and I do understand the value of these, but raw wood or shellac are the only finish options I'm offering on fretless conversions currently.
And I haven't done one with shellac yet. I just know I love shellac finishes on fretted necks. Personally I love the slick feel of raw wood fretless boards but that's just my personal preference.
jeeesus, how much money can i throw at you to do this to one of my guitars??
You can hit me up at guitarmdofficial@gmail.com if you'd like. All depends on whether you just want to ship a bolt-on neck for conversion, or a whole guitar.
It is important for me to point out that currently I'm only doing conversions for unfinished boards. Until I change my mind, I'm only using shellac as a finish, though I haven't tried it on a fretless board yet -- so as long as you're OK with a raw wood conversion, reach out and I'll be happy to accommodate.
Stain is another thing I'm keeping to my own personal projects until I get it completely figured out. I've re-leveled the board on my SG and have gone through most of the old dye. So -- raw wood, and no dye, and we're good to go.
I've been planning more videos on fretless guitar when I've got time. It's an absolutely wonderful instrument and it opens the door to so many exciting things. If you've seen my "bassmisen" video titled "This Bass Thinks it's a Japanese Shamisen" -- guitar strings on a fretless short scale bass. Sounds awesome, and a unique instrument all unto itself.
It's quite addicting, and definitely exciting to add to the repertoire if you've got a collection of exclusively fretted guitars.
when you have to refret a guitar but halfway through you said fuxk it..
Lmao. That's actually literally what happened. I was originally going to refret this and then as it was sitting there with no frets on it for weeks, and I didn't feel like putting them in....I was like, wait a minute
lol it kinda sounds like Garageband 🤣
@@guitar_mdthis guitar will sound incredible with a sustainer/sustainiac
I've been debating putting one in. Duncan Price (@DiskoBebe) on Instagram has designed a polyphonic infinite sustainer that seems to be far more powerful than the Sustainiac and gives control over individual string vibrations.
I would absolutely love for that to go commercial. Wouldn't hesitate for a second to buy it. I've only tried a Sustainiac once -- maybe it was just the particular guitar, but I found myself wishing it was stronger so it would have a more immediate effect.
I do have an EBow and use that on fretless regularly, but for sure, an infinite sustainer pickup would be the best way to go.
Definitely, fretless and a sustainer pickup are a winning combination. I've read varying things about the Sustainiac vs the Fernandes system. If you haven't seen Duncan Price and his sustainer, definitely check it out. Wish they would come to market but it doesn't look like it's gonna happen -- that would be my first pick by far.
Unfortunately even though I've been making my own pickups for years, I don't have the knowledge to make a sustainer pickup. However...there are a lot of DIY plans I'm curious to try.
The Sustainiac is looking like the easiest installation though, and quickest solution. I'll forever complain about Duncan's design not being available until it is, though.
It would've been faster. Easier and better to use an unspotted fretboard.
And your pickups sound terrible.
Your personality is the only thing here that's terrible
excelent trip...no more scales...free experimental frecuencies...microtonalism etc.
Agreed! So much fun. No limits with fretless. Even more fun with an EBow. I want to try it with a Sustainer pickup as well!